Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Mister Fork on September 17, 2007, 07:19:57 PM
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Did you know that as AvA admins, we have the ability to set the downtimes for map objects for weeks and months?
The reason why I am stating this that we are trying to differentiate the AvA from the MA. Or, as Pyro put it earlier, it's not to take away MA players, but to gives HTC customers more options to explore. The MA's are the bread and butter of Aces High. That being said, if we can offer a diverse historical arena, then its a win for us (looking for historical match-ups), and HTC, looking for ways to keep the interest of their customer base.
This is my PERSONAL vision of the AvA that I think I'm hearing.
An arena where the enjoyment of the fight is not to only outwit your opponent in the sky, but to outwit your opponent in their ability to fight you on even grounds.[/b]
Here's our checklist:
- make base capture part of strategic objectives and difficult
- keep the historical engagement balanced
- bring a squadron approached to gameplay
- eliminate player rankings
- differentiate the arena from the MA through
* longer setup lengths
* smaller maps
* interesting setup strategies with potential for a open RPS
Here's our to test list:
- turn off player scoring
- extend setups by 2-4 weeks
- create interesting setups (led by ROC)
- turn the arena from a bunck of rocks with nothing happening to dynamic and strategic gameplay
How does this tie into downtimes?
- all map objects on a map are set so that once they're down, their down.
- airfield AAA take 12-24 hours to repair and rearm
- airfield hangars take a week to replace (as would be in real life)
- airfield objects like fuel, barracks, and ammo dumps are the same
- turn back on map strategy (it has always been turned off)
- CV's that are destroyed are gone for a very very wong time.
For example, if you attack two airfields that housed P-51's for the map, and by destroying those fighter hangars, no more P-51's for several days. Same for bombers and alike. But each side would be given that kind of 'covert' information.
How could this impact gameplay?
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That sounds quite interesting. I wouldn't mind trying that.
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My concern with the one-week downtime thought is that a couple of people with no opposition could flatten front line bases in relatively little time. When their porking is done, they leave . . .
Someone else logs in and finds all his front line bases useless, and then he logs off in frustration.
I like the direction of your thinking, just concerned about unintended consequences. Increasing downtimes is interesting, just not sure if perhaps a whole week is going overboard.
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One idea to avoid that would be to have floating respawn times so if theres only 4 people in the map the respawn times become much shorter than when the maps filled with alot of people to defend things properly.
Edit: LOVE the idea though :aok
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This is so stupendously short sighted I want it implemented immediately so that this hideous idea will be permanently dismissed.
First night all semblance of dar gone every front line hanger porked. Two people want to fight they will have to fly 2 sectors each and agree on a meeting place just to find each other. Day 2, arena so damaged the porkers leave because it's too far to fly to pork anything else.
If I remember correctly HTC had to disable fuel porking, increase troop numbers, and decrease hanger down times just to make the MA playable.
The AvA needs to remain a fighter arena because it's the only one. That is what "differentiates the AvA from the MA", that is what "gives HTC customers more options to explore".
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what kong said to the very word. the porkers will flatten the arena. but please do try it, try this week and see.
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Those of us who are working on a larger campaign style setup for the event are paying attention to what you guys are saying.
Personally, one of the setups I'm working the bugs out of uses hardness to increase the damage needed to take down a structure. This causes an actual Mission to be required to take something down, not simply a pork and auger.
There is also life limits to consider. Setting the limit up so that you can't launch right after you die suggests more time spent trying to live, and not engage in pork and auger runs, and for the fighter purists that are in the AvA, how much more realistic can you get? You die in a fighter, you don't just jump back up, so there is a great incentive to stay alive.
It's also quite possible to have a controlled fighter front that allows for the furballs some of you want, while keeping the Strat element off to the sides, that's done by the setup.
There is a great deal of opportunity for a long term, ongoing campaign in this arena. It's a natural for it. Kind of a huge waste of space for a handful of dogfighters who want a private arena.
The complaints about overnight porking are valid. The Setup allows for that Not to Occur, as it is a total waste of time for the pork and auger dweebs that we all know and love. It can be Very Difficult, and require a well planned and thought out mission, one worth Defending. This is what Scenario Guys live for, and while pushing off the very people that would do what you are concerned about, you could be drawing in the solid, strat minded guys, who after their missions would likely head to the fighter front and shoot at you.
Just so you know you Are being listened to. Those who Want more strat and those who don't want the furballs killed off.
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Hi all!
I must say that the idea is extremely interesting, it should be tested. Yes the pork and auger crowd is quite dangerous and annoying and may be a problem.
But I still think it is very worth a try. One detail: if it is impossible to manage exact and finite numbers of certain aircrafts, I would like to see high perking of rare and little produced machines implemented.
There's nothing more annoying than the ability of spawning unlimited numbers of certain aircraft, produced in two digit series...
Everything else is just fine, even bombers and fighters in different airfields.
I still believe that large AvA maps with less active bases would be a better solution than small maps. But this is just because they look so nice and real...
Cheers,
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Can the object (ie hangers, ack) toughness be changed? Make it very difficult for single fighters to flatten a base?
edit: Once again I paid no attention to ROC. Please disregard my post...
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Originally posted by jamusta
I am a tool shed warrior who only plays in AvA for score. ica n bomb a strat from 10k.
:eek:
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make ack super deadly - one ping and your out and base hardness to the extreme and I think it'd work
what do you mean by dead time? how can you control how long it takes to respawn after you are shot down? great idea - be better if you dumb down the gun strength where it'd take more than a lucky shot to peel a wing off.
for trying to make the arena better
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that would have every ackhugger in the game doing just that
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Originally posted by storch
that would have every ackhugger in the game doing just that
they are going to do that anyway
the game is not nor should it be geared towards that type
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but you just suggested that it be made that way
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I would love to have a setup that lasted a month, was squad friendly and more than insta-action (ie we could fly realistic missions in).
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Very interesting.
I would suggest starting early war as the plane issue is a huge one. Nobody cares how many 109es and stukas you up.
Hardening bases is hard to get a grasp on. Are you saying that multiple runs turn the base into jelly and make it impossible to repair? Do you mean that factory attacks limit airplanes? What happens to the map when England can no longer produce fighters? Does anyone play?
I used to love it in AW3 (2?) when somebody would smoke the spit factory. But if the axis only have the 109 and we blow the 'emil' factory what happens then?
I think you should definitely try though. That is what the CT/AvA is about. You KNOW you will get feedback on how it is working out. Maybe this will draw numbers but I would not bet on it. I think the historical buffs are just fewer than the MA crowd.
It is a really different kind of game play that many do not find interesting. Sadly there are not many of us that would stop our subscribription if the AvA did not exist.
When I egg in the AvA these days it is just practice for when I get a chance to fly a scenario. Personally I do not think the milkrunners will show up if there is no score and nobody is on. What do they have to gain? They just wasted a ton of time doing nothing. If you think they are doing it to ruin your night I would have to believe you are being paranoid. Nobody cares if half the map is toast in the AvA.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Nobody cares if half the map is toast in the AvA.
unless the 1/2 that is toast is totally on 1 side, and the un plastered side has no side to fight against........
some things sound good, but Forks 1st opening post of suggestions would shut the AvsA down in less than a week, and would call for the arena to have to be reset.....
like ROC's idea of if you die you can not just instantly reup......only downfall to this is as someone mentioned "ack huggers" and the runaway janes........
you would be back to the handful of regulars who actually don't give a care if they lose or win as long as the fight is good.......but put up 8 players ( think as it is a squad wanting to fly historically) against 3 on the other side, the eight dogpile the 3 and then cap their field, then pork their field ( think playing for strat ), they push these guys back, the 3 wait until they can take off again while the 8 man historical squad pushes deeper into territory, when they can finally take off again, the eight has the upper hand again, knock the 3 down, and start over....... still needs work on the "thinking it out process" still before you are any where near ready to test anything....
offering different options is always a good thing, but you will always have spoilers in life no matter what you do...this is where the AvsA staff would need to step up the moderating to around the clock, almost like in the AW days........
just a worthless 2 cents.......... good luck though, hope you find something that works yet does not take away from the regulars who use the arena for the historical matchups of planes ( or near as possible to historical )......
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The issue is that the current style of gameplay of dogfighting only is not sustainable. Sorry, but the numbers are just not there.
We wish to offer a different arena where squadrons and strategic thinkers get a chance to fight a real enemy, with real targets, and historical match-ups. To support these initiatives, we need to change our rocks into flower beds - think different... :)
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
The issue is that the current style of gameplay of dogfighting only is not sustainable. Sorry, but the numbers are just not there.
Now there's a fascinating statement. Definitive yet enigmatic. By "not sustainable" are you saying "not financially sustainable". Should I read this as - HTC has determined that the numbers are too low to justify the resources required to offer the arena.
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I would bet that is the case. Too bad since I will probably cancel my account when the AvA is closed. Just not into fighting F4Fs with F4Fs or getting jumped by a p47 when I am flying a p47.
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Originally posted by KONG1
Should I read this as - HTC has determined that the numbers are too low to justify the resources required to offer the arena.
News to me.
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Yeah doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. Just trying to figure out in what way it is not sustainable. Mr Fork will show up eventually and fill us in.
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I like the ideas, but I can't see how this will have any effect but drive off the few people that frequent AvA at all right now.
First, one would think that by removing scoring, the folks that would milkrun at 2am wouldn't bother. What would they have to gain other than ruining everyone else's good time? But that's the rub...some folks are just like that.
Second, now you're gonna have fields with a 20 minute flight between fights. That's gonna get old REAL QUICK.
Third, if you have a delayed re-spawn after getting killed, how many folks are gonna hang around waiting until they can re-up? You get shot down. You can sit for 5 minutes waiting for your pilot to get a new life, or you can just log and go to the MA. My time is limited. I can't spend all night waiting to find a fight or for my pilot to get a new life (or at least not during weeknights).
Perhaps limit the number of fields that could be flattened. Once the distance between opposing fields reaches a certain distance, a close base respawns. Something like this would assure that there would always be at least one place with short transit times, and could serve to limit the damage milkrunning could cause.
Unless you have persistence in AvA like the MA, it's gonna be hard to keep folks from milkrunning in there like EW.
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
How does this tie into downtimes?
- all map objects on a map are set so that once they're down, their down.
- airfield AAA take 12-24 hours to repair and rearm
- airfield hangars take a week to replace (as would be in real life)
- airfield objects like fuel, barracks, and ammo dumps are the same
- turn back on map strategy (it has always been turned off)
- CV's that are destroyed are gone for a very very wong time.
For example, if you attack two airfields that housed P-51's for the map, and by destroying those fighter hangars, no more P-51's for several days. Same for bombers and alike. But each side would be given that kind of 'covert' information.
How could this impact gameplay?
All that I've not included in the quote above I agree with (except setup life, but I'll get to that).
I have trouble with what's quoted though. It seems to me that there's too much emphasis on the terrain objects and penalizing players. You want to encourage game play, not restrict it.
Were it me doing this I'd:
-set downtimes to a short period - 30-45 minutes would work well enough, and I'd make that value universal so that town and strat group objects have the same down-time.
-Increase object hardness by 3 (9k worth of bombs to kill a hangar - hardness for everything else times-3 also).
-Increase troop requirements for capture to 1.5 C-47's worth to make taking territory praciticable by organized missions but only if they've can bring enough power to the fight to get the job done.
-Set the AAA to about 2/3's MA strength.
Setup Times of 2 weeks: A month is at best a minimum for an experiment - but even a month will show you precious little but it'll at least be a bit of a hint. 2 weeks will show you nothing you don't already see on a regular basis. 2 week setups have been tried and to be honest aren't long enough to bring in squadrons or keep them interested. Were it me I'd run the first setup for 3 months, see how that plays out and adjust if necessary. Just pick a good, historically based setup that will appeal to more than just those interested in a single battle or small side-show to the main event.
The death periods are kind of interesting and will add a distinct flavour to the AvA as long as they are kept short - a couple of minutes at most. I definitely think they're worth a try.
I understand you want to change the overall nature of the arena population to one that includes those who like the strategic and tactical side of the game that goes beyond individual performance in a fight. One thing you should want to avoid in achieving that is to build an arena that excludes individual game play. The players interested in that (for the most part the current population) should be able to get their thrills in the AvA also.
Personally I like the long-term aspects of game-play that the AvA has the potential to offer, but I also like the furballs and 1v1 fights. I'd like to have both in the AvA.
my 0.02
Cheers,
asw
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30-45 minute downtime doesnt work since by the time you get back with another load of eggs the stuff is already back up again.
Make bombing difficult and make downtimes long enough for it to matter (if you do it at all).
i just don't see how this will attract people though. I could really care less about physical changes on the map. I prefer the organized mission stuff. Not like pilots in the war ever thought "three more hangars and we can move on to the next base!"
I guess CT will be what I would look forward to more than a strat arena.
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Originally posted by KONG1
Mr Fork will show up eventually and fill us in.
Maybe not.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
30-45 minute downtime doesnt work since by the time you get back with another load of eggs the stuff is already back up again.
Which is exactly the point.
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Looks to me they are trying to add an element of 'realism' that people complain is lacking in the MA.
You bomb a hangar in the MA, it's back in 15 mins. You only have to fly 3 mins to a base. Dive bombing Lancs.
Looks like they are trying to turn the AvA into a prolonged 24/7 Special Event. Longer downtimes, longer flight times, and I love the Death Penalty idea, would cut the bomb and bailers out and provide an incentive to land your plane.
I like the idea... a more 'realistic' form of combat in AvA and leave the quick action free-for-all in the MA.
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Kong - just read my first posting - this is all just an opinion. I don't think the current dog fighting experten is zee anzer to flyink in ze A vee eh arenza.
I dontz noz vat to do abotz exapninz arenaz. Ja, jusz keepz doink vat ve tink is vite. (cough)
Donno whats getting into me. Speaking Germlish - must be the contagious thinking out of the box thinking and strategic gameplay. :D
Opinions are rampant around here, everyone has one. And there is nothing wrong with it.
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I'm a bit curious.
Squads and "strategy" are what killed the CT in the 1st place. The concept that somehow "enhancing" this will save it is beyond me.
If you froze the base structure so nothing at all was capturable or damagable, upped the ack to maximum leathality and eliminated squads (officially at least) you'd be 1/2 way there. Add some way to level the sides and you've got a start....
Your doing nothing that the MA doesnt already have. Go back to the "pure" air war many of us cut are teeth on and you'll get numbers.
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???? Why not just hang in the DA humble? What if squads are one of the things you love about AH along with matched plane sets? What use is the ta152 if you cannot intercept b17s with it? Why fly the stuka if you are not escorted by 109es on your way to radar bases in england?
Those are the things that make AH fun. Screw head to head that is just practice for when it counts (scenarios!). The AvA makes scenario like action available all the time rather than on some particular night I have other paying obligations on. I still refuse to believe the CT was killed by anything. I was here when it happened and if my memory serves me it was because Dale wanted the name, not because squads were doing anything but keeping the numbers up. This anti squad talk is just silly. You end up flying in one if you are with more than 2 people and fighting in the AvA. What do you say to your friendlies humble: "Stay away your guys, I want to take on all 4 of these guys by myself!!!!"
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Originally posted by humble
Go back to the "pure" air war many of us cut are teeth on and you'll get numbers.
Humble, we appreciate all input, but the fact is that we've had pure air war for quite a long while now and it has not produced numbers. That may be a good thing (Dedalos, Kong) or a bad thing (the many who say they won't come in because there are no numbers), but it's a fact.
- oldman
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Originally posted by ergRTC
???? Why not just hang in the DA humble? What if squads are one of the things you love about AH along with matched plane sets? What use is the ta152 if you cannot intercept b17s with it? Why fly the stuka if you are not escorted by 109es on your way to radar bases in england?
Those are the things that make AH fun. Screw head to head that is just practice for when it counts (scenarios!). The AvA makes scenario like action available all the time rather than on some particular night I have other paying obligations on. I still refuse to believe the CT was killed by anything. I was here when it happened and if my memory serves me it was because Dale wanted the name, not because squads were doing anything but keeping the numbers up. This anti squad talk is just silly. You end up flying in one if you are with more than 2 people and fighting in the AvA. What do you say to your friendlies humble: "Stay away your guys, I want to take on all 4 of these guys by myself!!!!"
I'm simply stating the obvious reality....back when the average #'s in the MA were in the low hundreds we had 40+ in the CT almost every night. alot of people (myself included) were openly critical of the squads when they came to the CT...we were ignored and the CT died. literally just that simple....
Now in the DA in furball island its the jets, folks have asked they be disabled. We'll see what happens. The AvA has none of what FSO has and all the worst of the MA.
You dont need to be in a squad to fly well with others. In fact alot of the time I like my squaddies on the other side. When we fly mixed sets in the DA Bat and I love to square off...WHY...because we have a blast killing each other.
All you need to do is look at the "banter" even here. you have guys mouth off about "waxing" guys they couldnt even keep views on...let alone kill in a fair fight. They "talk" scenario" & "realism" but you dont see em in FSO or the scenarios. {this is not aimed at you BTW}. what they do is talk trash and hide behind the AVA....different barrel....same bad apples...same empty barrel.
The entire concept of a "squad" in the AvA is laughable. In fact the only place a squad really matters is in FSO...and every true quality squad flys it.
I think the reality here is that the entire meaning of a squad has been diluted. Here's a clip that illustrates how a good squad works. My squaddie asks if I want help...i'm waving it off when I have the lala behind me...he's actually pushing the fight and I dont want him picked...if he wins fine. I finally get him reversed and ping him up and he scoots...again perfectly fine...he's on the deck in hostile air...he pushed it as far as he could and left when he had to...and he got a from me...
A fun little fight (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20laladefense.ahf)
This is a informal squad op I used as a training write up on squad site. Twinboom had been stopping other squad from a capture and we decided to help. Again my "job" is to keep him busy as best I could. Again you have squad communication and the reality that my living or dieing was secondary to me keeping TB occupied and freeing up the others for the task at hand. playing a part (http://www.71sqn.co.uk/Films/38v109.ahf)
I hope the AvA takes back off, and if the current "plan" works I'll be the 1st to offer congrats. But the simple truth is that the real squads just dont have an interest in the BS that goes on in the AvA...
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MrFork,
It just struck me as a definitive statement by someone privy to conversations all of us are not a part of. So now I'm curious. In your opinion, in what way is it not sustainable.
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Originally posted by humble
The entire concept of a "squad" in the AvA is laughable. In fact the only place a squad really matters is in FSO...and every true quality squad flys it.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen.
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Originally posted by E25280
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen.
How so...
In the FSO you have a tasked mission vs an equal and historically correct foe executed in the context of a broader mission set and team objective with a well thought out and balanced scoring system. You dont get to pick your mission or plane (all the time) and have to handle every aspect of air warfare from Jabo to CAP...
It is the only place 9other then scenarios where the true mettle of a squad is tested...and the best MA squads also shine in FSO week after week...
The CT WAS about a "code of conduct"....bring that back and it will grow.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Humble, we appreciate all input, but the fact is that we've had pure air war for quite a long while now and it has not produced numbers. That may be a good thing (Dedalos, Kong) or a bad thing (the many who say they won't come in because there are no numbers), but it's a fact.
Numbers are easy, is that the goal? Low quality results in low numbers. Mediocrity results in high numbers. High quality results in low numbers. It's called a Bell Curve.
More Hamburgers are sold than pancreas, fish eggs and snails. More viewers for Jerry Springer than Charlie Rose. More people see the blockbuster action movie, read the harlequin romance, blah, blah, blah.
It's not that low numbers are good. The AvA is very good for a specific type of game play, low numbers are a predictable result, not a goal. If you change it to be very good at a different type of play, you won't have more numbers, you'll just have a different small group.
Numbers are easy - Just head for the middle.
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Humble, the whole attitude you have displayed in your last two reponses smacks of the narrow minded elitism that is so unfortunately prevailant in the game today. Paraphrasing:
"My sandbox is better than your sandbox." Whatever.
"My way of playing is the only right way to play." Pu-lease.
"There are no reasons to have squads unless you are doing FSO." What a joke.
There are a lot of ways to play this game, a lot of reasons to have squads, and most importantly, a lot of ways to have fun in this game. Why don't you check the condescension at the door if you are going to visit those of us who don't think your little sandbox is the end-all and be-all of AH.
Nothing wrong with advocating for your side, but I object to your unwarranted ridicule of those who enjoy something different.
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I logged in a bit ago...over 400 total in various MA...and 9 in DA (all at furball island) and 1 guy in AvA). This isnt about what I think...or what any one person thinks. Now furball island has been up for a week?? already you can find a good fight almost all the time.
The AvA sadly doesnt qualify as a sandbox right now...
I'm not talking about any style of play, simply the group dynamics....
The guys...or is it guy...or is it no one...with the "little sandbox" is the AvA itself. That wont change unless you change the culture itself. I'm not ridiculing anyone...
I flew the CT since the day it started. you could have 60+ in the AvA in less then 2 months with no problem if you simply stepped up and addressed the real issues.
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sound's like a plan, i always wanted to try AvA but it's always empty. So i don't bother but if i ever see anyone in it i hop in the server instantly when i can. But nice plan, hope to see it executed in the near future :aok
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heres my idea for anti milkers:
Have about 5 people agree to have the weekly downtimes and it works, so, airfield B got hit by a guy, during agreement of the people. Once the numbers drop below about 5, or it becomes something like 5/1 on sides, it reverts to MA damage amount.
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the other day i logged into AvA and it was just beddog and me in there. he was sitting in the tower downloading skins and so i took off in a B17 and went to bomb an ack factory from about 3000ft. while i mess around i talked with beddog about when he nearly had a real mid air collision flying a plane in real life. it was just for the heck of it since there was no other players to fight. so how many times does a loan player come into AvA empty and then do the same thing only for another to come in looking for a fight and say 'nice milker' before even asking if they had been waiting for a dogfight?
and as to milking, i dont know why thats a problem. we fly online to give us hundreds of different WW2 style scenes. I dont know about you guys but when i see a flight of bombers going over in a furball it really increases my enjoyment and immersion. same as with ground vehicals. These aspects AND the players who routinely man them in the battles make this game so much more than a fighter plane game, you absolutely never know what youre going to fly into. All our worn out cliches and gamer sub-catagories are just a classic human reaction to the diversity of the indivdual.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
the other day i logged into AvA and it was just beddog and me in there. he was sitting in the tower downloading skins and so i took off in a B17 and went to bomb an ack factory from about 3000ft. it was just for the heck of it since there was no other players to fight. so how many times does a loan player come into AvA empty and then do the same thing only for another to come in looking for a fight and say 'nice milker' before even asking if they had been waiting for a dogfight?
Bat,
I do this every now and again....log in , no one is there so I grab a bomber or attack plane and go hit a target waiting for someone to show....if I grab a bomber, I look for one that has a nose mounted gun for the pilot if one is available......never have been called a milker yet......but then again I will fight what ever comes at me too.......( and prob lose rofl )
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Originally posted by humble
I flew the CT since the day it started. you could have 60+ in the AvA in less then 2 months with no problem if you simply stepped up and addressed the real issues.
And what would these 'real issues' be that you refer to?
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1st and formost recognize that the "squads" in the CT imbalanced game play. Any "single" invariably ran into 4, 5 or more "squaddies" and got ganged...repeatedly.
If the singles banded together then the "squaddies" went elsewhere.
The CT became a waste of time pretty quickly...
Basically you have two choices...
1) radically alter gameplay...create a "new" game with the same parts...
2) go back to the old AW FR arena which was focused on small group engagments...
a) eliminate porking/capture
b) bump ack leathality to max
c) keep bases close
d) use autoasigned side leveling if needed
There's a reason the AvA is dead even with 500+ users online most (98%+) of the time...the DA furball island had more players. It's simply an unenjoyable experience.
Now you can capture the 10% that wants fun "even" fights without the MA garbage if you eliminate the current AvA mentality...
Or if you can make it fly you can to a major overhaul...but if you dont change then mentality of the people who currently fly the AvA you'll get nowhere...