Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: B@tfinkV on September 17, 2007, 08:58:44 PM
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quick film, shows a reversal on two enemy planes at once. the reversals are simple to follow. the snapshot on the spitfire (S! oz) was a lucky one, but it mostly goes to back up something that an old timer of the game told me: "gunnery is not about thinking, when you feel the shot is right, then it is. dont waste time thinking."
hope some might find this enjoyable and/or informative to watch.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/Chog_snapshot.ahf
bat
S!
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Hey Bat, that was a nice shot on the spit. I would like to know if their is a constant, or known distance when u go up in your reverse or maybe a specific view that is your cue. I'll try to explain. Most of the time when i do the reverse move like u did, which is to bank hard on one side, i tend to over turn. I mean i cover too many degrees back into my opponent so when i pull up, roll over and come back down, i'm usually not in gun ranges anymore. I see u guys doing it over and over and tried different distances to start banking but it's not happening too often that the nme plane will be in my gun sight like u guys do. If they do it's 50/50 that he just pulled in the wrong spot of the sky. I watched Murder's film as well but can't figure out exactly when to start to go up to roll over. Of course i died a lot too by pulling too soon and the con just followed me up and blew me out of the sky. What could i do to try to improve on this? I know that the timing will come with time, but if u don't seek for the answer u can try for a very long time. I tried to explain the best way i could but it's hard to write it down. Thank you.:aok
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Originally posted by Black Jack
their is a specific view that is your cue.
you pretty much answered your own question with out knowing it ;)
and yes it will take time and practice to polish this habit/skill.......think of it as a mental picture you scan and store in your brain, to call upon when you are in this situation, learn your timing...
btw Black Jack, you might want to edit or change your sig material......
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That kind of shot comes down to tracking the bogie in a side or up view, while guiding your nose so it will be pointing at their future flight path. It is 80% a blind shot (ie. not viewing through the gunsight). Either you guessed right and they are going to cross through your guns or not. A snapshot by definition is just a very brief opportunity to throw some lead in their crossing flight path.
As far as the reversal/barrel roll defense/(converting a flight path overshoot into a 3-9 line overshoot)...Unless the attacker goes for the shot on you hook line and sinker, it is unlikely you will have much of a shot opportunity on them when you exit. My point being, you can do everything perfect, and not have a short range shot because the bogie didn't cooperate. If you are consistantly denying them a shot, and are in a tail chase a few seconds later, it's a good start. From there it comes down to fine tuning the angles (on the fly), and narrowing the margin that their shot misses you by (drawing them in very close). This comes with time.
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i cannot contend with the answers of guys like these jack, thank you TC, murdr. you help me understand what happens late on weekends after ive been three sheets to the wind and flying around. i never really think about the mathematics of flying but have learnt how to make the images on the screen instantly case a reaction on the stick and manipulating the aircraft doesnt require much thought. I am always appreciative of critisism and analysis from you guys and am never looking for a virtual wtg or praise. i post em so hopefully people can show me what i could do better not applaud what little i might have done correctly.
the only thing i would add to you black jack is notice how the spitfire fights with a sense of fairplay. as i am pulling round on thier dive attacks the spitfire has the option to pull tighter and force me into a ho situation and possible collision. he respects the fact that i had powerfull guns on him first and if he keeps pulling tnto me we will both be shooting and both get hit. Its a 2 on 1 fight and he does the honourable thing of turning side on to avoid a Ho or ram and reposition for the kill, this generosity by freak lucky shot costs him the fight. that sense of fairplay gains him far more of my respect than i could gain by hitting 100 freak snapshots.
S! Mjtalon for great 109 flying.
and thank you ozrocker for letting me have that small chance in an uneven fight, there are not many like you.
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Bat and I spend a fair amount of time fooling around in the DA. The one thing that constantly amazes me is how well he judges my shot window and angles. He literally "see's" my shot solution. Even with good sticks alot of the time your actual shot setup is pretty solid....with bat he's always evading right as your going to pull the trigger.
This is a learnable skill and is not really an ACM skill but a "views" skill. The better you are at keeping the con and his flight path in sight the better chance you have to convert those type of shots...
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Thank you guys, I think I'm pretty much on the right track then. It's just a matter of putting the time in to learn to feel the situation as much as looking at it and put my plane at the right position. I think the major difference between a rookie like me and guys like u is that when u pull the trigger, you guys don't miss much. We can fly as good as we want and be at the right spot at the right time but when u have this split second chance to shoot and u miss, it's a whole new game. Snaphook says he's not too good at gunnery but the day i will be able to fly my spitfire the way he flys an A20 vs many :) I will be very happy. :aok Thanks again.;)
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ty batt for sharing, you shoulda seen me and domin in da yest in spits was snapshots galore
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here are a couple of good examples of a reversal against the BnZ attack.
Mosquito vs 190 (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/mossrvse.ahf)
109K4 vs Nik2j (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/reversek4.ahf)
pretty crazy stuff, the physics of the 109 vs nik reversal is hard to imagine without seeing it. look at the speeds of the attacker and defender at the moment before and after the pass. just believe that any high con is your next kill and you will get it, if you consider the high bogey to be an 'untouchable threat' to you then you are already letting them win before they attack.
bat
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The best illistration I've seen on film of this move is one Morpheus made called My Darling. He made it when the Spixteen first came out. I used to have that film but lost it in a re-format.
Anyone still have that vid?
Morph?
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please post it, i would love to see it.
i remember one of morpheus' videos showing Leviathn in a spit doing these reversals, they really helped me get my head round the move and i will always be thankfull to those gents for the help and demos i used to enjoy so much.
would you post it for us morpheus?
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LOL! I just finishe watching it and that's the C hog i got shot down by a long time ago lols, wtg batfink on shooting me down ya bugger :( I'll get ya next time
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oh noes MjTalon has found us at it! runawayquickly!
:D
S! sir, i think you already did shoot me down the next sortie.
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oh yeah i DID shoot you down :D hehe guess were evening
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sure, here ya go.
http://www.furballunderground.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=13
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Ever have a pair of F4Us racing in on your six with more E than you? In the training arena, during one of our Engaging Multiple Enemies clinics; CpMorgan and Trumpman vs my P-38J. A barrel roll defense, and doing what the P-38 does best: fighting in the vertical.
Here's a short film. (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-F4U-2on1.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
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thanks for the films gents. morhpeus thanks for posting, that link took me to a registration page rather than a direct d/l.
both strongly show the importance of good SA, even before the importance of the moves or the gunnery.
edit: very good flying widewing, good to watch. the pair of hogs made one simple and devastating mistake. they both attacked almost in wingtip formation. this produces the effect of only having to 'reverse' one enemy even if it two plane right next to each other. had they seperated by 800yrds the P38's job would at first be twice as hard. saying that, it is more common to find two individuals attacking the same enemy right next to each other than two wingmen working a single bogey correctly. This same mistake can be seen in the first clip i posted where a 109 and a spitfire both attack the F4u at the same exact time. amazing how often this mistake is made by a pair of fighters on the same team.
If you guys watch Widewings views, he knows what he is doing so perfectly he can start a move and keep looking forward, then 5 seconds later glance up and instantly find the enemy con. he knows where they are going long before even they do.
S!
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I can't get AH Film Viewer to work. On mind end, it looks like nighttime, wierd stars, viewer hangs also.
Anyone know the fix?
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
thanks for the films gents. morhpeus thanks for posting, that link took me to a registration page rather than a direct d/l.
both strongly show the importance of good SA, even before the importance of the moves or the gunnery.
Here's another TA film. Slapshot is in an FM-2, I'm flying an SBD (Slow But Deadly). Slap rolls in for a bounce and my goal was to evade, and then reverse the situation to the attack. Slapshot stayed in the lufbery too long, possibly to see if the SBD could out-turn the Wildcat.. It can.
Here's the film. (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/SBDvsFM2-1.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Hap
I can't get AH Film Viewer to work. On mind end, it looks like nighttime, wierd stars, viewer hangs also.
Anyone know the fix?
Beats me.. Give HTC a call or e-mail the Skuzmeister at support@hitechcreations.com
My regards,
Widewing
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sorry bat, i have to do some work to my site if i want to keep it up. Alot of the links are busted. The films are still up on my server but there is just a problem with downloading them. They work through ftp just not the web. Going to work on them tommorow if i get a chance.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Here's another TA film. Slapshot is in an FM-2, I'm flying an SBD (Slow But Deadly). Slap rolls in for a bounce and my goal was to evade, and then reverse the situation to the attack. Slapshot stayed in the lufbery too long, possibly to see if the SBD could out-turn the Wildcat.. It can.
Here's the film. (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/SBDvsFM2-1.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
:cry
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Originally posted by SlapShot
:cry
Well, you know that the Wildcat doesn't like flaps out for long... :) The huge hit in drag more than offsets the decrease in turn radius. Plus, the Wildcat becomes quite unstable in its roll axis with flaps out, getting worse as you put them down further. On the other hand, the SBD is steady like a brick wall. Slow, but very stable.
Where the SBD falls on its face, so to speak, is in the vertical. It simply lacks the power to sustain a high AoA turn for more than a few seconds. Thus, if you retract the flaps and get the FM-2 into a climbing turn, the SBD will not be able to follow. I suspect you knew this, but were interested in seeing how tight the Dauntless could turn. It turns very small, but very slow circles.
Those tiny, slow circles leave the SBD extremely vulnerable to a second fighter.
Anyway Slap, it's always a pleasure to fly a scrum with you.
My regards,
Widewing
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i have an epic fite of XBat(109k) vs me(190a5) that was 10 minutes of me holding off his experten B&Z slashing attacks.The last five minutes i was down to 1 elevator & using flaps to compansate.
used every tactic i could think of(including pretending to ditch) and it paid off.
Batfink,if you can post the film i will do an in depth AAR if you deem the film worthy for training purposes.
Thnx
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cc morph, i remember 'my darling' well, i d/l last when you first posted it. If i remember correctly there was a real good reversal on a C205, and your SA was excelent to help me learn. thanks
Sirloin - send me the film bud, ill host it for you and PM you a link, would love to see it.
djhayze21 [at] hotmail.com
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Originally posted by Widewing
Where the SBD falls on its face, so to speak, is in the vertical. It simply lacks the power to sustain a high AoA turn for more than a few seconds. Thus, if you retract the flaps and get the FM-2 into a climbing turn, the SBD will not be able to follow.
Interesting - I have never tried that.
I sometimes find myself in a lufbery where I know the other plane is the better sustained turner - but my self-confidence has convinced me that that I can go closer to my planes limit and win the lufbery :)
Then the enemy turns out to be handlings his plane just fine - and slowly begins to catch up on me.
So - if my plane has the power I can start to retract flaps and begin a climbing spiral, and then escape from his guns?
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Ideally you'll know your planes relative strengths before you reach that point. If you have an advantage in acceleration and sustained climb you can slow the fight down so you can then take the fight up. As best you can you want to know your rides "hole card" before you push all your chips in.......
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Hotmail aka windows live mail is experiencing trouble on my end, i cannot get to my emails :(
dont know whats up with it, if its not working in a few days i'm switching email companys.
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Ok..Film sent BatFeek.
Thnx again.
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sorted (:
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/film3.zip
great flying, great fight too. my favorite had to be losing an elevator landing on the hillside then takin off behind the 109
S!