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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on September 20, 2007, 03:14:44 PM

Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2007, 03:14:44 PM
I'm just getting into exploring Sporting Clays shotgun shooting.  Looks like a lot of fun.  Was going to be a renegade and try it with break-open coach shotgun or H&R single-shot, but was convinced to be kind to my shoulder and go semi-auto.

So found a nice Remington 1100 12-gauge on sale and am now ready to roll.  

How about some sporting clays tips from you veteran shotgunners?
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Deth7 on September 20, 2007, 03:25:47 PM
Don't go shooting with Dick Cheney........
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Hornet33 on September 20, 2007, 03:34:32 PM
Well you have a great gun for it. Semi is the only way to go for sporting clays. I'd recomend using a modified choke to start with. Also if your going to get into it on a regular basis you might want to look into reloading. Ask around at the range with the local shooters and they can give you all sorts of great advice.

Have fun and be safe.

By the way..I see you live in Woodbridge. You aren't shooting at the club over in Greenbelt are you? It's the Prince Georges County Trap and Skeet Center. It's right next to the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. I used to shoot there every Friday night with a friend of mine when I lived in Baltimore. They have a really good pro shop there.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Dago on September 20, 2007, 04:03:45 PM
You cannot shoot sporting clays with a single shot gun.   I use a pump, but an over under or auto works well.

I enjoy shooting sporting clays occasionally. I carry 2 boxes of 7.5 shot, and 2 boxes of 9 shot.

Enjoy.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Pyro on September 20, 2007, 04:37:58 PM
Have you done any clay shooting before and have you bought your gun already?
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: eskimo2 on September 20, 2007, 05:35:46 PM
When I lived in Alaska I had my own clay thrower.  My favorite shotgun was a $5 POS single shot H&R 20 Gauge.  I think I shot better with that than with my 12 pump.  I could even shoot it with one hand and hit more often than not.  I’m sure experts would never use a single, but I wouldn’t totally write them off.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 20, 2007, 06:33:19 PM
My oldest son and I just joined the Seattle Skeet club last Saturday, where they have trap, skeet, 5-stand. They are building a sporting clays course. :aok Saturday is our first day shooting! (Well, his first since Hunters Ed).
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Pyro on September 20, 2007, 07:40:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
When I lived in Alaska I had my own clay thrower.  My favorite shotgun was a $5 POS single shot H&R 20 Gauge.  I think I shot better with that than with my 12 pump.  I could even shoot it with one hand and hit more often than not.  I’m sure experts would never use a single, but I wouldn’t totally write them off.


The reason single shots aren't suitable is because sporting clays consists of shooting pairs of targets either thrown simultaneously(true pair) or with the second one coming as soon as you fire at the first target(report pair).  That's why single shot shotguns can't be used.  I bet this guy could do it though given what he does with a pump:

http://www.benelliusa.com/player.tpl?t=Tom%20Knapp%20World%20Record%202&v=WorldRecord2.flv

and an auto:

http://www.benelliusa.com/player.tpl?t=Tom%20Knapp%20World%20Record%203&v=WorldRecord3.flv
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Dago on September 20, 2007, 08:11:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
The reason single shots aren't suitable is because sporting clays consists of shooting pairs of targets either thrown simultaneously(true pair) or with the second one coming as soon as you fire at the first target(report pair).  That's why single shot shotguns can't be used.  I bet this guy could do it though given what he does with a pump:

http://www.benelliusa.com/player.tpl?t=Tom%20Knapp%20World%20Record%202&v=WorldRecord2.flv

and an auto:

http://www.benelliusa.com/player.tpl?t=Tom%20Knapp%20World%20Record%203&v=WorldRecord3.flv


Pyro lives, who knew?   :D
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2007, 09:24:40 PM
(quote)  edit> By the way..I see you live in Woodbridge. You aren't shooting at the club over in Greenbelt are you? It's the Prince Georges County Trap and Skeet Center. It's right next to the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. I used to shoot there every Friday night with a friend of mine when I lived in Baltimore. They have a really good pro shop there.  (unquote)

No, Greenbelt is north in Maryland around the beltway past Washington.  I'm about 25 miles south of the District.  

I'm looking at Shady Grove Sporting Clays in Remington, VA, about 40 miles south, and Bull Run Regional Park about 20 miles west in Centreville, VA.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2007, 09:32:36 PM
(quote)  Have you done any clay shooting before and have you bought your gun already?  (unquote)

No and yes.  

I've done a lot of research on line and visited a couple skeet ranges but never shot on them.  

I'm going to start with a week day appointment at a rural range.  I don't expect to hit much, but I want the sporting clays experience.  If I like it I'll stick with it; if not, it will be another in the saga of making memories.  

I'm rather a cheapskate, always trying to get the most bang for the buck, so to speak.  I was leaning toward Benellis but they're too pricey for me, and some shooters still favor gas recoil over inertia.  

The Remington 1100 reportedly has been a favorite for decades and still is considered to be one of the softest shooting, which is very important to me. Many on-line and local sources recommend it, so when I found a good price on a 12-gauge Remington 1100 Classic Field, I bought it.  

Shot about 70 rounds with it and am impressed.  Unfortunately it won't eject 1-oz light loads, but I probably should be shooting 1 1/8 anyway, and it's kinder with 1 1/8 than my coach shotgun was with 1-oz.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 20, 2007, 09:45:05 PM
(quote)  My favorite shotgun was a $5 POS single shot H&R 20 Gauge. I think I shot better with that than with my 12 pump. I could even shoot it with one hand and hit more often than not. I’m sure experts would never use a single, but I wouldn’t totally write them off.  (unquote)

I really like the operating and cleaning simplicity of break-opens.  But they do kick hard, even with extra recoil pad.  Some shotgun ranges here won't allow short-barrel coach shotguns, and of course single-shots are one shot too light for many scenarios.  

I keep the 12-gauge Stoeger coach shotgun and the single-shot H&R for home defense.  Quick, easy, and reliable under all conditions.  

I was going to try the Stoeger on sporting clays at a range that does allow short barrels, but after reading more, figured better heed the consensus  that coach shotguns are too punishing for extended shooting like skeet, trap, or sporting clays even though they're used in less volume shooting in cowboy gun matches.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 20, 2007, 11:33:18 PM
Halo, my 1100 is a 1970's shotgun, and it has a permanent full choke, but I still have good success shooting skeet/trap with it. I've considered putting a poly-choke on it but just haven't gotten around to it.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Pyro on September 21, 2007, 10:29:18 AM
If you hadn't bought your shotgun yet, I was just going to say to take a look at the Sporting model of the 1100 if that's what you like.  But that would also up the price and what you bought is fine.  Being able to use 1 oz loads is nice though.  

When you say you have a week day appointment, does that mean you're going to be taking a lesson from an instructor?
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Toad on September 21, 2007, 10:30:09 AM
You can have gunsmith put screw in chokes in most barrels. If barrel walls are on the thin side, they may have to bulge the end of the barrel slightly in the last inch or two. It's not too bad and it's nowhere near as big a bulge as a poly choke.

They do it around here for about $100 plus choke tubes last time I checked.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Pyro on September 21, 2007, 10:39:58 AM
You could also buy a replacement.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0005760210864a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=1100+barrel&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=1100+barrel&noImage=0
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Makarov9 on September 21, 2007, 10:52:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Halo, my 1100 is a 1970's shotgun, and it has a permanent full choke, but I still have good success shooting skeet/trap with it. I've considered putting a poly-choke on it but just haven't gotten around to it.


Rip, I inherited a 70's 1100 from my father-in-law. It's been flawless so far. I had the same barrel as you but I bought a new Rem 26" barrel with Remchoke built in. I grabbed a Light-Mod choke for it and I've been having a great time at the sporting clays ranges. Good old 1100's. My wife is getting a lot of use from it too.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Tiger on September 21, 2007, 11:40:46 AM
I use an Remington 870 pump for hunting dove and turkey, as well as shooting some skeet occasionally.  Couldn't justify spending the extra dough on the 1100.

Go with #8 shot, I use Remnington's shells, they work just fine for me.
Also, check your local sporting goods store and see if they have a "Skeet #2" choke
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: FX1 on September 21, 2007, 12:44:21 PM
One of the best sporting clay ranges in the country is in downtown San Antonio. We always go have a round once a year and eat at some good old Mexican food restaurant...

I have a old Winchester 101 that it a great gun to carry around the course. Got lucky on that purchase, a old rancher asked me at the super S in Llano if i hunted. He informed me that his son didn't care about hunting and that he would like to sell a gun that was originally meant to pass on. It was in his truck in a very nice wooden case. I ask what would he like for the gun and he said $800.. I could only pulse $500 from the bank so he gave me his address along with the gun and told me to try it out and make sure it functioned properly.

Old Winchester craftsmanship just has something special about it.

Never really liked the 1100. I had one as a kid and always took a bag of parts and oil every time i was out in the field. I think i just got a pos from the start.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: forHIM on September 21, 2007, 01:43:28 PM
I've done the MN Horse and Hunt Club (http://www.horseandhunt.com/)  spring league the last two years.  I use a Rem Spartan 310 o/u with 1 1/8 #7 1/2 and #8s.  I haven't found the need for the 9s yet, but the 7.5s help a little on the farther birds.

The team I shot on had a mix of autos, o/u, and 1 or two pumps.  The pump guys were definitely disadvantaged on the true pairs.  The report pairs were ok, but having to cycle (lower the gun slightly and reshoulder) usually cost them prime shot at the second and usually ended up with a longer second shot.

If the range you are shooting only has one course, then it should be fairly easy to determine what you'll need for choke / shells.  The horse and hunt club courses (5 or 6 of them) adds a challenge since one week you may have a simulated grouse hunt and the next you may have a simulated goose hunt or a mix of anything in between.  

My next shotgun will probably be an auto with screw-in choke system.  My current gun is designed more for field work.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Charon on September 21, 2007, 02:15:24 PM
I have some questions about this myself. I would like to add skeet/trap to my 1.5 hour each way outing to a really nice Wisconsin DNR range to go with the pistol and rifle shooting. But, I know virtually nothing about shotguns and choke, etc. It looks fun though.

I recently was given a Remington 11-48 in 16 gauge. Apparently since it's recoil operated instead of gas it doesn't reduce the recoil all that much. It  accepts up to 2 3/4" shells.

http://www.remington.com/library/history/firearm_models/shotguns/model_11-48.asp

Goals:

1. Something that is easy to shoot and not a chore. The shotgun once had an external pad that has dry rotted off. I was figuring on replacing this. Also, what shell choices will get the job done and be easy to shoot all day?

2. I understand the concept of choke, but not the practical applications. Any advice on this particular shotgun? I cannot find any reference to the existing choke. I do see this stamping though: MOD. in the same area (but not part of) the stamping for gauge and shell size.

3. Any tips on economical shooting?

I will take care of the actual skeet instruction on site, and I have informally shot skeet (very poorly) with a hand thrower decades ago. I do understand the basic concept of leading the target, etc.

Charon
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: NHawk on September 21, 2007, 02:33:51 PM
Years ago, I used a 12ga Remington 11-87 for skeet at Fox Valley rifle range in Illinois and sporting clays at Trout & Grouse in Wisconsin. It served me well for that as well as hunting goose, duck and pheasant. It's interchangable choke tubes were a big plus.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: NHawk on September 21, 2007, 02:40:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
2. I understand the concept of choke, but not the practical applications. Any advice on this particular shotgun? I cannot find any reference to the existing choke. I do see this stamping though: MOD. in the same area (but not part of) the stamping for gauge and shell size.
MOD is modified choke.

Perhaps this chart will help you in understanding it's application....

Percentage Of Shot Inside 30" Circle

CHOKE 20 Yds 30 Yds 40 yds
Cylinder 80% 60% 40%
Skeet 92% 72% 50%
Improved Cylinder 100% 77% 55%
Modified 100% 83% 60%
Improved Modified 100% 91% 65%
Full 100% 100% 70%
 


Note that the percentage of shot does vary depending on the shot load.

The tighter the pattern, the harder to hit a moving target. The wider the pattern the more likely a hit on a goose, duck, etc. BUT, the downside is if you have too wide of a pattern you could badly injure but not kill.

The funniest and sadest story I can think of involving chokes was when I was pheasant hunting with an old two trigger over-under shotgun of my brother's with full and modified chokes. A bird popped up and I accidentally pulled both triggers at once. The bird was non-existent after that. It was like in the cartoons....feathers everywhere but not a piece of the bird to be found.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Charon on September 21, 2007, 02:57:33 PM
Thanks NHawk. So a modified choke is not optimal for skeet. Is it too tight to have fun or is it OK? I guess I would have a built in excuse for poor shooting. That dammed modified choke!... :)

Charon
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: NHawk on September 21, 2007, 03:15:10 PM
I used everything from modified to full for skeet.

Remember, skeet is reletively easy. Most of the time your target is decelerating when you shoot.

Whereas a properly setup sporting clays course gives you fairly small windows of opportunity to hit your target which is usually travelling at a consistent speed in that window. Whether it be flying through the air, rolling or bouncing on the ground.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Pyro on September 21, 2007, 04:22:43 PM
Charon- economical shooting and 16 gauge aren't terms that tend to go together.  You're going to pay a premium for 16 ga ammo just because it's not used much.

Your gun is based off of the Auto-5, which was another great John Browning design.  Be aware that the gun needs to be configured according to the type of loads that you're shooting.  If you're configured for heavy and you shoot light it may not feed.  If you're configured for light and you shoot heavy it will beat up your gun.  Check the inside of your forearm for a diagram but there's a good chance it's been worn away.  Here's a link to the Browning instructions, you'll have to research to see if there's any differences between the original and your model.

http://www.browning.com/faq/detail.asp?ID=105
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 21, 2007, 04:26:49 PM
Toad, Pyro, thanks for the 1100 choke/barrel info!
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Charon on September 21, 2007, 04:56:37 PM
Quote
Charon- economical shooting and 16 gauge aren't terms that tend to go together. You're going to pay a premium for 16 ga ammo just because it's not used much.


I was worried about that. I didn't even know there was a 16 gauge before I got this one, and Wally World didn't have a big cheap box of 16 gauge shells (or any, for that matter) when I was in there picking up some cheap white box .45 and .38 last week. I guess I can count the savings on the gun itself for something... Living in the People's Republic of Cook County I can't even find cheap mail order ammo and have it shipped in, of course.

I had read about the friction ring deal for light or heavy loads. Again, being a newb I assume load is the shot load, and obviously anything like a magnum powder loading. From the Web, apparently some 11-48s have the switchable friction ring and some apparently have a one size fits all version. I will break it down this weekend to see what I have. The recommendation for a softer recoil that I have seen online involves using the heavy load setting with light load shells, but with just a tiny amount of lube on the magazine tube (the friction surface) -- just enough for it to cycle.

I wonder if a barrel swap is possible? Either 12 or 20 gauge? I would assume the receiver and many of the parts would be the same. I just wonder how many would have to be swapped to change it over. Mag tube and some recoil elements, springs and the friction ring, etc.

Charon
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: NHawk on September 21, 2007, 05:29:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
...... Living in the People's Republic of Cook County I can't find cheap mail order ammo and have it shipped in, of course....
Wow, things must have really changed since I moved out of Illinois.

Try going out to Gat Guns (847-428-4867) on Rt. 25 in Dundee they always treated me well. They may be able to work out a trade or a trade-in for something more usefull. At the very least they will be able to answer any and all questions.

You can also try Bells south of O'Hare airport on Mannheim Rd 847-678-1900. The gunsmith there was impeccable. That is if they are still there. :)
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Charon on September 21, 2007, 05:51:29 PM
Quote
Wow, things must have really changed since I moved out of Illinois.


Technically, they passed a law last year that clarified ammo sales by mail if you faxed over a copy of your FOID card. In ILL you have to show this card to even touch a firearm or purchase ammo. That was the sticking point on mail order sales.

Now, many vendors will comply with that in the ILL outside of Cook County, but the vast majority still refuse to sell in Cook County because of the potential legal harassment. Also why I didn't get my Curio & Relic license (an 03 FFL license that allows collectors to mail order guns). Most of the big name C&R suppliers like AIM, and the small value added sellers like Empire Arms still refuse to sell and ship a perfectly legal bolt action rifle to a C&R holder in Cook County.

Ive been to GAT before NHawk, it's just right down the road. It might be a good idea to cull this shotgun and some of the extras I have and get a nice used 1100 in 20 ga or 12 ga.

Bells got nuked recently by the airport expansion I believe, or some other rezoning deal. No surprise, they are having a hard time finding a new location in their dealings with the city over the deal.

Charon
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: rogwar on September 21, 2007, 07:46:11 PM
Make certain you indentify your dominat eye.

Here's one way:

http://www.nova.edu/hpd/otm/cop/DominantEye.htm


I am right handed but had to learn to shoot birds using left-handed stance because of a left dominant eye.

Shoot a rifle right-handed, pistol with either eye but left is a little better but cannot hit anything shooting a shotgun right handed.

Easier to identify your dominant eye now and start shooting that way rather than change later.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 21, 2007, 11:50:25 PM
(quote)  When you say you have a week day appointment, does that mean you're going to be taking a lesson from an instructor? (unquote)

I'll take whatever help I can get, but I'm looking for a weekday appointment mainly to avoid weekend crowds for my first try at sporting clays.  That should mean more help for me, but I'm not hiring an instructor as such.  

The guy I bought the 1100 from at Gander Mountain has a chest full of shooting pins and is a shotgun instructor.  He spent a lot of time with me and gave me lots of information.  He seemed to be a good instructor and obviously is a good salesman.  

I've found a ton of apparently good advice on line on sporting clays. Incidentally, two other great assists are Remington's shooting computer simulation TopShot and of course Aces High with its off line and on line CV 5-inchers which are a lot like shotgun shooting.  

I'm still focusing a lot on recoil reduction.  Even with the softer shooting 1100, I'm going to add a Limbsaver slipon pad.  Without one, I got some minor bicep bruising after about 75 rounds of mostly 1 1/8 oz No. 8 12-gauge.  

Unfortunately the 1100 does not eject low noise low recoil loads (apparently 1-oz).  I could quickly get a reputation as a nerd by shooting only one low noise low recoil round from a semiauto 1100, but I can't quite totally discard the idea.    

I've read some downers about detached retinas, hearing loss, and cheek surgeries from too much shooting with not enough protection, so I am super cautious.  Some of the misfortune is to people who shoot hundreds of rounds a day (I'll never be in that category) but some of it is insidious accumulation over a long time.  

Shotguns are probably the most punishing of all shooting since so many people fire so many rounds in such comparatively short time periods.  And many shotgun loads kick as much or more as many high power rifle loads.  

Maybe I need a nerf ball shotgun?  Or one of those ping-pong ball pumps?  
:confused:
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: FBBone on September 22, 2007, 01:54:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
Technically, they passed a law last year that clarified ammo sales by mail if you faxed over a copy of your FOID card. In ILL you have to show this card to even touch a firearm or purchase ammo. That was the sticking point on mail order sales.

Now, many vendors will comply with that in the ILL outside of Cook County, but the vast majority still refuse to sell in Cook County because of the potential legal harassment. Also why I didn't get my Curio & Relic license (an 03 FFL license that allows collectors to mail order guns). Most of the big name C&R suppliers like AIM, and the small value added sellers like Empire Arms still refuse to sell and ship a perfectly legal bolt action rifle to a C&R holder in Cook County.

Ive been to GAT before NHawk, it's just right down the road. It might be a good idea to cull this shotgun and some of the extras I have and get a nice used 1100 in 20 ga or 12 ga.

Bells got nuked recently by the airport expansion I believe, or some other rezoning deal. No surprise, they are having a hard time finding a new location in their dealings with the city over the deal.

Charon


Illinois SUX!
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: NHawk on September 22, 2007, 05:51:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
...Ive been to GAT before NHawk, it's just right down the road. It might be a good idea to cull this shotgun and some of the extras I have and get a nice used 1100 in 20 ga or 12 ga.

Bells got nuked recently by the airport expansion I believe, or some other rezoning deal. No surprise, they are having a hard time finding a new location in their dealings with the city over the deal.
While you're at GAT, check the reload equipment. If you have a place to do it, that might be the most economical route to go. It sounds like you know what you're doing, but don't do it in your kitchen. I used to do it in a detached garage 50ft away from my house. I had a nice bench set up for shotgun and brass reloading. Somewhere I know I still have the lead pot and some .38/.357 molds, .38 & .30-06 brass and some 12ga wads/hulls. But god only knows where they might be.

Sad that Bells is gone. Everyone I knew went there if they needed some work done on a gun. Few purchased new guns there, but the custom work was terrific.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: mtndog on September 22, 2007, 07:12:32 AM
Hi Charon

  Take a look at Berretta 391 urikas , fantastic all around gun,  comes with multiple chokes.

 Bell was shut down for numerous reasons ,one being loaning guns to the mob for hits then selling them to law abiding citizens. it has been in the family secrets trial.

 we'llhave to hook up one day and hit my club
http://www.northbrooksportsclub.org/

mtndog
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Pyro on September 22, 2007, 10:36:08 AM
Charon- you'll want to shoot your shotgun just to get some rounds through it but if you really enjoy clay shooting, renting a gun might be a good option too.  There's a range here that has Beretta 391 sporting models for $15 a day(costs $1100+ new).  Another range has $10/day rentals but I'm not sure what they have.  If you're paying $3-4 extra for a box for 16 gauge, that difference covers your rental for 1 round of SC.  Shoot more than 1 round and it will save you money plus you get to shoot a really nice shotgun that's tailored to the task at hand.

Halo- An hour with a shooting coach is a pretty good way to start.  If you start off with a gun that doesn't fit properly or poor technique, that's going to make for a difficult learning curve.  Your bruise sounds like you're not getting the gun mounted properly or it's coming off your shoulder when you go to shoot.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 22, 2007, 07:19:21 PM
My son shot his first two rounds of Trap today. He did really well for a first timer. He hit 10 of 25 the first round, and 8 of 25 the second round.

I hit 20 of 25 first round and 18 of 25 second round. (Hey, it's been 7 years since I touched my shotgun other than a bi-annual cleaning-oiling, what can I say?)

7 more Saturdays of trap before our goose hunt. :aok

Cost FWIW:
Each round costs $3.50. Box of shells=$4.50. Total cost for 2 of us shooting 2 rounds each is $32.00.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Dago on September 22, 2007, 07:25:23 PM
It's common for new shooters to shoot high, have him aim a little under trap and see how that works for him.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 22, 2007, 07:26:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
It's common for new shooters to shoot high, have him aim a little under trap and see how that works for him.
:aok Thanks. Will advise.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: eskimo2 on September 22, 2007, 07:30:28 PM
Pyro,
You obviously know what you’re talking about.  How long have you been at this?  How often do you practice and compete?  What kind do you do (trap, skeet or ?)?  What gun(s) do you use?  Do you ever travel to compete?  How do you rank in your club or division (or whatever it may be called)?
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 24, 2007, 10:02:39 AM
Pyro, I see now why you advocate going with an instructor.  I went over to the Bull Run Shooting Center on Sunday where everyone has to take a two-hour introductory course before being allowed to shoot there.

What a great introduction.  Small group of seven with an excellent instructor.  Included was about a dozen shots at skeet and trap targets.  Guys used rental over and under 12-gauges and women 20-gauges that were included in the $25 price.

I had been holding my shotgun just a bit too low and perhaps not tucked as close as it should have been in my shoulder pocket.  I busted about 9 of my 12 birds and the instructor was pleased (yes, he was most encouraging and complimentary with all the students, as a good instructor should be).  

I was the oldest and maybe the second most successful shooter after another guy.  Another guy was good too and one not so good.  Two of the women had excellent instincts but the other was a bit too young and gunshy in spite of the instructor's very helpful training.

I'm signed up for a special sporting clays round next Sunday with an instructor and small group.  Really stoked about that.  Should be a terrific intro to sporting clays.  

5-stand sounds great too -- a sort of mini sporting clays in one place.  I'll eventually do trap, skeet, and wobble trap too just to try 'em all at least once.

This range restricts barrels to 22 inches (I think, definitely longer than coach and home defense guns) and loads to 2 3/4.  I'll use my Remington 1100 Field Classic 12-gauge 26-inch on the sporting clays; the clerk said semiautos are fine and they have no problem with their shell ejections, e.g., do not require ejection shields.  

The guy who sold me my 1100 said he was a single-digit handicap golfer who gave up golf for shotgun shooting.  He said they both cost about the same and took up similar amounts of time.  That's a good comparison, I think.  

Dunno whether I'll stick with shotgunning in the long run, but if I can do it without bruising and busting my wallet, it will be tempting.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 24, 2007, 10:14:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
Pyro, I see now why you advocate going with an instructor.  I went over to the Bull Run Shooting Center on Sunday where everyone has to take a two-hour introductory course before being allowed to shoot there.

What a great introduction.  Small group of seven with an excellent instructor.  Included was about a dozen shots at skeet and trap targets.  Guys used rental over and under 12-gauges and women 20-gauges that were included in the $25 price.

I had been holding my shotgun just a bit too low and perhaps not tucked as close as it should have been in my shoulder pocket.  I busted about 9 of my 12 birds and the instructor was pleased (yes, he was most encouraging and complimentary with all the students, as a good instructor should be).  

I was the oldest and maybe the second most successful shooter after another guy.  Another guy was good too and one not so good.  Two of the women had excellent instincts but the other was a bit too young and gunshy in spite of the instructor's very helpful training.

I'm signed up for a special sporting clays round next Sunday with an instructor and small group.  Really stoked about that.  Should be a terrific intro to sporting clays.  

5-stand sounds great too -- a sort of mini sporting clays in one place.  I'll eventually do trap, skeet, and wobble trap too just to try 'em all at least once.

This range restricts barrels to 22 inches (I think, definitely longer than coach and home defense guns) and loads to 2 3/4.  I'll use my Remington 1100 Field Classic 12-gauge 26-inch on the sporting clays; the clerk said semiautos are fine and they have no problem with their shell ejections, e.g., do not require ejection shields.  

The guy who sold me my 1100 said he was a single-digit handicap golfer who gave up golf for shotgun shooting.  He said they both cost about the same and took up similar amounts of time.  That's a good comparison, I think.  

Dunno whether I'll stick with shotgunning in the long run, but if I can do it without bruising and busting my wallet, it will be tempting.


They probably don't have a problem with it because its unlikely that the 1100 will eject an 8 shot casing. Mine never has, not enough powder there to back that action back enough to eject it! :huh
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: mtndog on September 24, 2007, 10:24:53 AM
Hi Halo,

  Golf is a good analogy for shooting clays. Setup for when and where you are going to take the clay is important, its all before you say "pull'! Just like golf. Its the setup and alignment before you take a swing that makes a huge difference.  
  Eventually you will start to hear about "sight pictures" (maybe you  already have). You will develop a set of pictures in your head of when to take the clay for the different types of shots, (mostly sporting clay types), After you've developed these "sight pictures" it gets a whole lot easier.
 i also took lessons from an instructor, best thing in the world ! Other than setup and position his biggest advice was not to worry about lead. swing thru, beaggressive and when you see it shoot it, the clay will almost appear slow motion off your barrel. But follow thru...also like golf.

mtndog
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Toad on September 24, 2007, 10:32:22 AM
Halo,

My brother shoots at Bull Run all the time. I think he's one of the range officers. I've even shot there; pretty nice place.

He's an excellent wingshot, was a Class A trapshooter at one time and shoots every game that's available at Bull Run.

He'd probably help you out for nothing. If you're interested, let me know and I'll check with him.

Be advised, we'll be heading out to SD on a 3 week pheasant hunt soon, so get in early or wait a while. :)
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: lasersailor184 on September 24, 2007, 10:40:05 AM
I used to shoot trap at home.  However, the commies up here at school have shut down all ranges within an hour of here.

So I haven't really shot in a while, though the last time I did, I got a 22 and a 21.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Golfer on September 24, 2007, 01:54:32 PM
Rip, my father's 1100 and my 11-87 have never had any problems with shell ejection even using 8 shot low brass.  I use 7-1/2 shot most of the time because it's what I buy for trap shooting but I also keep 9 shot for skeet on hand.  When on the range I usually use an over/under which obviously doesn't matter but for dove neither Remington has ever had a problem that didn't directly result from the gun needing cleaned.

We didn't and still don't clean them after every use, we use them as the utility guns they are.  Mine's been submerged in water, frozen shut, used to smack rose bushes out of the way, a walking stick and even dropped out of a tree stand.  That's not to say we don't take care of them but with synthetic stocks in the field and a little TLC at home when it gets wet or dirty they're just about the most bullet proof guns you can have.  

If yours is having problems ejecting the 8 shot shells you can check a few things:

-That the O-rings around the magazine tube are still in good condition.
-That the metal ring below the O ring is oriented the right way.  If you reinstall it upside down it hinders ejection (some say by design for trap shooters who actually didn't want the shell to automatically eject on a trap range) which would cause your problems.
-That the spring that is installed in the stock isn't putting too much pressure on the slide in the action of the gun.

I've seen them all.  I'm sure the gun is cleaned regularly and the O rings are in good condition if you care for the gun reguarly.  My bet would be flip the piston ring (the metal ring) from its position and give that a try.  If nothing else the spring could be making things a little tight.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: lasersailor184 on September 24, 2007, 02:20:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
My son shot his first two rounds of Trap today. He did really well for a first timer. He hit 10 of 25 the first round, and 8 of 25 the second round.

I hit 20 of 25 first round and 18 of 25 second round. (Hey, it's been 7 years since I touched my shotgun other than a bi-annual cleaning-oiling, what can I say?)

7 more Saturdays of trap before our goose hunt. :aok

Cost FWIW:
Each round costs $3.50. Box of shells=$4.50. Total cost for 2 of us shooting 2 rounds each is $32.00.


4.50 for a box of shells?  You do realize that you don't have to buy the gold plated shotgun shells, right?
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 24, 2007, 03:57:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
4.50 for a box of shells?  You do realize that you don't have to buy the gold plated shotgun shells, right?

That is our local Walmart "Winchester" ammo price, 8 shot! WA state taxes the crap out of the 3 "F's". (If it flies, floats, fires )

The gun range gets $6 a box.:eek:
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 24, 2007, 04:02:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Golfer

-That the O-rings around the magazine tube are still in good condition.
-That the metal ring below the O ring is oriented the right way.  If you reinstall it upside down it hinders ejection (some say by design for trap shooters who actually didn't want the shell to automatically eject on a trap range) which would cause your problems.
-That the spring that is installed in the stock isn't putting too much pressure on the slide in the action of the gun.

I've seen them all.  I'm sure the gun is cleaned regularly and the O rings are in good condition if you care for the gun reguarly.  My bet would be flip the piston ring (the metal ring) from its position and give that a try.  If nothing else the spring could be making things a little tight.

I've checked, replaced all the above. Even went as far as tearing everything down, boiling the metal parts in hot water, letting them dry, and re-assembling (with the help of my Dad who is a retired-amatuer gun nut) and to no avail. Replacing the spring actually made it start a non-eject on higher grain rounds (6 shot and lower!)  I'd say today about 1 out of every 20 rounds jam (2/4 shot) and every round jams on 7 1/2 or above shot. :(  I open for any other suggestions if you have them. I do know that the gas-operated 1100's are famous for this problem, but not everyone has the problem.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: lasersailor184 on September 24, 2007, 04:09:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
That is our local Walmart "Winchester" ammo price, 8 shot! WA state taxes the crap out of the 3 "F's". (If it flies, floats, fires )

The gun range gets $6 a box.:eek:


Ah, I can understand the taxes.  We used to get them for roughly $2.50 a box here in Pennsylvania.  Though, the 2 Wal-Marts up here at school no longer sell firearms and ammo, the 1 back at home still sells ammo, but not firearms.


If you plan on shooting a lot, you might want to look into loading your own shells.  Best bet is to look for a used loader.  You can make your shells as light, or as hot and heavy as you want.  I like mine when it kicks really hard.

My father calculated that w/o the cost of the loader factored in, it costs roughly 2.10-2.25 to load a box, depending on sale prices and the like.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on September 24, 2007, 05:02:07 PM
Incidently, I've yet to try teflon lubricant on the rings (that are suppose to be kept dry, free of oil) I think I'll try that next.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Charon on September 24, 2007, 05:50:07 PM
Quote
Charon- you'll want to shoot your shotgun just to get some rounds through it but if you really enjoy clay shooting, renting a gun might be a good option too. There's a range here that has Beretta 391 sporting models for $15 a day(costs $1100+ new). Another range has $10/day rentals but I'm not sure what they have. If you're paying $3-4 extra for a box for 16 gauge, that difference covers your rental for 1 round of SC. Shoot more than 1 round and it will save you money plus you get to shoot a really nice shotgun that's tailored to the task at hand.


Thanks for the advice. The range I go to doesn't rent weapons, but it won't be too much for me to get some 16 ga shells for few sessions to see it's something I want to take on as a hobby.

Quote
   Hi Charon

Take a look at Berretta 391 urikas , fantastic all around gun, comes with multiple chokes.

Bell was shut down for numerous reasons ,one being loaning guns to the mob for hits then selling them to law abiding citizens. it has been in the family secrets trial.

we'llhave to hook up one day and hit my club
http://www.northbrooksportsclub.org/


LOL. I didn't know that about Bells.

I wouldn't mind hitting your club  mtndog, but on  scale of 1-10 with shotgun shooting sports I register about a 1 or 2. A newb is being generous, though I am safe around firearms. I actually grew up about a half mile behind the original Northbrook Shooting Club, when it was in Northbrook. I had a friend in HS that was a competitive shooter who based out of the club. Had a really swell late 60s Corvette too.

Charon
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: mtndog on September 24, 2007, 06:28:26 PM
hi Charon
  it would be my pleasure. weekends can be busy at the club. Can you get off on a wed or thurs afternoon? the club is open 12 to 5 on Wed, and 12 to 10pm on thursdays. Shooting under the lights is fun.
  dont worry about being a newb,we'll have ya breaking 20 plus on yer second round.:aok
  You could try my 12 and 20ga. berrettas, as well as a 12 ga.browning ultra o/u to get a feel for different shotguns.they all have their pros and cons.

mtndog

P.s.   its a small world , i recieve NPN
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 24, 2007, 11:41:34 PM
(quote)  Halo,

My brother shoots at Bull Run all the time. I think he's one of the range officers. I've even shot there; pretty nice place.

He's an excellent wingshot, was a Class A trapshooter at one time and shoots every game that's available at Bull Run.

He'd probably help you out for nothing. If you're interested, let me know and I'll check with him.

Be advised, we'll be heading out to SD on a 3 week pheasant hunt soon, so get in early or wait a while.

(unquote)

Thanks, Toad, good info and offer.  I think I'll be okay with the sporting clays class Sunday and then wing it from there.  I might have made a mistake buying the classic field 1100 12-gauge because it does not shoot the lightest loads like Winchester AA low noise low recoil.  

I'm renewing my recoil research and so far see that some older even highly experienced shooters go to 20, 28, or even 410.  The range oriented 1100s are more expensive so I'll probably not go that route.  

I'll know more after my first sporting clays round Sunday.  I might just use one of the range 20-gauge over and under Brownings.  

(quote)  They probably don't have a problem with it because its unlikely that the 1100 will eject an 8 shot casing. Mine never has, not enough powder there to back that action back enough to eject it!  (unquote)

Rip, as I understand shotgun shells, the shot size has nothing to do with any ejection problems, it's the amount of powder to operate the recoil mechanism.  For example, my current model 1100 Classic Field will not eject Winchester AA low noise low recoil No. 8 shot (min dram equivalent, 26 gram), but it does fine with Federal Top Gun Target Load No. 8 shot (3 dram equivalent, 1 1/8-oz shot).
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Toad on September 25, 2007, 07:39:33 AM
You might look into the Benelli Comfortech guns; they have a specially designed stock that is supposed to reduce recoil ~30%. Beretta also has the Kick-off system on some guns. Both of those solutions are rather pricey.

A 20ga autoloader won't kick much and while some folks will tell you it's a handicap to use one for trap, it won't make much difference at all on 5 stand, skeet, crazy quail and most of the shots at a SC range.

Enjoy!
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: lasersailor184 on September 25, 2007, 08:53:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
Rip, as I understand shotgun shells, the shot size has nothing to do with any ejection problems, it's the amount of powder to operate the recoil mechanism.  For example, my current model 1100 Classic Field will not eject Winchester AA low noise low recoil No. 8 shot (min dram equivalent, 26 gram), but it does fine with Federal Top Gun Target Load No. 8 shot (3 dram equivalent, 1 1/8-oz shot).


Actually, it's the shot WEIGHT and amount of powder that BOTH contribute to cycling the action.

I'm too bored to read over the whole thread, but you probably don't want to start to learn clay sports with anything less then a 20 guage.  Once you have your basic skills set pretty well learned, then you can switch down or up.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 25, 2007, 05:40:03 PM
Thanks for correcting that, lasersailor.  I kept thinking I should add weight of shot but somehow didn't.  Duh on me.  

Had an interesting session today at a gun shop range with a do-it-yourself trap thrower.  Compared target loads of 12-gauge 2 3/4 No. 8 Winchester AA low recoil low min. dram equivalent 26 gram with Federal 3 dram equiv 1 1/8 oz shot (yes, drives me nuts when shell manufacturers do not post the same info for point by point comparison).  

In my perception, the Winchester low noise low recoil (which people assume to be 7/8 oz) in a Stoeger Coach shotgun (side by side double barrel) is about the same perceived recoil as the Federal 3 dram 1 1/8 oz in a Remington 1100 Classic Field semi auto.

I used Limbsaver pads on both them, and that helped.  My Remington 1100 becomes a single shot with the Winchester low noise low recoil because it won't eject spent shells.  

Both loads in an H&R 28-inch barrel single-shot breakopen were more uncomfortable, probably because of its lighter weight.  

The 1100 has a 26-inch barrel, the coach shotgun a 20-inch barrel.  Unfortunately, the nearest sporting clays range bans shotguns with 23 1/2 inch or less barrels.  I thought that quite unreasonable until a gun shop guy reminded me the shorter barrels make more noise even if they do shoot as accurately as many longer barrels.

The nearest gun range is in a highly populated area, so I can understand the importance of minimizing gun noise.  Which is another reason why can't take home defense shotguns there and blaze away with however many rounds the magazines hold.  

That range also limits powder load to 3 drams.  

Fortunately another range farther out allows any size barrels.  

So at last I'm finally familiar enough with my Remington 1100 to use it confidently Sunday in my first sporting clays round.  

Although ... since I have a free gun rental, I might just use a range Browning over and under 20-gauge.  Never shot a 20-gauge, so that would kill two birds with one shot (to use a shameless cliche here).
Title: Browning Citori, O/U
Post by: TalonX on September 25, 2007, 07:10:22 PM
And, I have chokes in both barrels that are imp cylinder.....  It can be an issue on a long double (think ducks).

Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: lasersailor184 on September 25, 2007, 07:24:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
Thanks for correcting that, lasersailor.  I kept thinking I should add weight of shot but somehow didn't.  Duh on me.  

Had an interesting session today at a gun shop range with a do-it-yourself trap thrower.  Compared target loads of 12-gauge 2 3/4 No. 8 Winchester AA low recoil low min. dram equivalent 26 gram with Federal 3 dram equiv 1 1/8 oz shot (yes, drives me nuts when shell manufacturers do not post the same info for point by point comparison).  

In my perception, the Winchester low noise low recoil (which people assume to be 7/8 oz) in a Stoeger Coach shotgun (side by side double barrel) is about the same perceived recoil as the Federal 3 dram 1 1/8 oz in a Remington 1100 Classic Field semi auto.

I used Limbsaver pads on both them, and that helped.  My Remington 1100 becomes a single shot with the Winchester low noise low recoil because it won't eject spent shells.  

Both loads in an H&R 28-inch barrel single-shot breakopen were more uncomfortable, probably because of its lighter weight.  

The 1100 has a 26-inch barrel, the coach shotgun a 20-inch barrel.  Unfortunately, the nearest sporting clays range bans shotguns with 23 1/2 inch or less barrels.  I thought that quite unreasonable until a gun shop guy reminded me the shorter barrels make more noise even if they do shoot as accurately as many longer barrels.

The nearest gun range is in a highly populated area, so I can understand the importance of minimizing gun noise.  Which is another reason why can't take home defense shotguns there and blaze away with however many rounds the magazines hold.  

That range also limits powder load to 3 drams.  

Fortunately another range farther out allows any size barrels.  

So at last I'm finally familiar enough with my Remington 1100 to use it confidently Sunday in my first sporting clays round.  

Although ... since I have a free gun rental, I might just use a range Browning over and under 20-gauge.  Never shot a 20-gauge, so that would kill two birds with one shot (to use a shameless cliche here).


To be completely honest, the only time I ever felt the recoil was a little soreness after shooting my heavily loaded shells through 4 rounds after about a 8-9 month hiatus.  Even on my lighter Mossberg 500, I never noticed any pain of recoil (only the pain of missing).

I think you're doing something wrong if you are so worried about the recoil.  You should be so focused on knocking the bird out of the air that you won't notice the recoil at all.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Pyro on September 25, 2007, 08:33:00 PM
Eskimo- I have no expertise, just a little general knowledge.  I'm not that far into it and while I'm a decent shot, I'm not great.  I know a couple things about Auto 5's because I own one but I shoot clays with a Browning Gold.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 25, 2007, 10:00:26 PM
(quote)  To be completely honest, the only time I ever felt the recoil was a little soreness after shooting my heavily loaded shells through 4 rounds after about a 8-9 month hiatus. Even on my lighter Mossberg 500, I never noticed any pain of recoil (only the pain of missing).

I think you're doing something wrong if you are so worried about the recoil. You should be so focused on knocking the bird out of the air that you won't notice the recoil at all.  (unquote)



I don't feel pain while shooting but I certainly feel any 12-gauge shot recoil.  After another 70 shots today I do not have any soreness but I  have some more shoulder bruising which doesn't hurt but does get my attention.

The instructor the other day said my mount is fine, but obviously one false mount any time can earn a kick that makes a bruise.  I'll keep working on it.  Eventually there has to be zero bruising after shooting or else it would not be wise to keep doing something that causes bruising.  

Firmly tuck into the shoulder pocket, firmly tuck into the shoulder pocket ... okay, I think I got it.  Now to do it every shot.

Incidentally, check out the new Remington 105CTi.  Is it the new world's best autoloading shotgun?  

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_105CTi.asp
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Toad on September 26, 2007, 07:35:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
Incidentally, check out the new Remington 105CTi.  Is it the new world's best autoloading shotgun?  

 


If it was, you'd still find people that would argue the point. ;)

I'm such an old timer that carbon fiber on a shotgun doesn't do much for me. I do like the bottom ejection. I haven't shot one yet though; it would be interesting to see if their recoil reduction claims are valid. My major problem with Remington is that their stock dimensions are for shorter, smaller folks. I particularly don't like their drop at comb and heel.

I've never been recoil sensitive. Heck, I used to shoot 40-50 rounds of .300 Weatherby off the bench at one session when I was developing my loads fot that gun. It didn't hurt me but by the end of the 2nd box I usually found it a bit harder to concentrate.  :)  (BTW, changing it out of the Wby Mark V stock into a Bell & Carlson really made a huge difference. It's pretty nice to shoot now.)

As for bruising, I get a bit of shoulder pocket bruising when I shoot a bunch. It's nothing serious though; just goes with the territory, I think. It's faint and it's just a few lines rather than a big area of bruising. Is that what you are seeing?
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 26, 2007, 10:09:19 AM
My last 70-shot session gave me a small bruise about 2 inches deep and 1 1/2 inches across.  Much better than some previous sessions that left bruising 4 inches deep by 2 inches across.

The worst bruise was from the bargain H&R single shot; for my taste, even a Limbsaver pad can't tame enough of the recoil passed behind that light barrel.

The Stoeger Coach gun behaves much better thanks to its heavier weight and a Limbsaver pad.  

And of course the semiauto Remington 1100 with its heralded comparatively light recoil is quite decent, especially with the Limbsaver pad and at intervals about a week apart.  

12-gauge shotgun recoil is formidable even with lighter loads, e.g., as shown in recoil tables on chuckhawks.com.  Recoil of typical 12-gauge 2 3/4 shell 1 1/8 oz shot (3 dram equivalent) at 1200 muzzle velocity in a 7.5-lb gun is 23 foot pounds, equal to a .30-06.  

How often does anyone go out and shot 70 rounds of .30-06 for fun?

The load I use for home defense, No. 1 buckshot 2 3/4 12-gauge 3 3/4 dram equivalent with 16 .30-caliber pellets, supposedly is near the kick of a .375 H&H Magnum.  Needless to say I only practice a round or two of that about once a year.

It's fun analyzing the stats but the most relevant indicator is still how loudly each shooter exclaims, "WOOOOEEEE, that sumostudmuffinun kicks!"
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Charon on September 26, 2007, 10:28:27 AM
Quote
   hi Charon
it would be my pleasure. weekends can be busy at the club. Can you get off on a wed or thurs afternoon? the club is open 12 to 5 on Wed, and 12 to 10pm on thursdays. Shooting under the lights is fun.
dont worry about being a newb,we'll have ya breaking 20 plus on yer second round.
You could try my 12 and 20ga. berrettas, as well as a 12 ga.browning ultra o/u to get a feel for different shotguns.they all have their pros and cons.

mtndog

P.s. its a small world , i recieve NPN


Cool. I can probably handle an afternoon here or there. We lost our managing editor at about the worst time we could this year and I am just now about done digging out. Are you going to be at NACS or SIGMA this year?


Quote
How often does anyone go out and shot 70 rounds of .30-06 for fun?


I ran through 150 rounds of .30-06 last weekend and it was a lot of fun :) Since my rifle range requires a 3-hour roundtrip I usually bring x2 battle rifles (or a battle rifle and carbine class) and a couple of pistols to shoot as well. I go through at least 200 rounds of rifle caliber ammunition and I use a shoulder pad for .30 cal. Last weekend I also went through 150 rounds of M1 Carbine, but no pad required for that. The only rifle I just can't shoot more than 20 or so rounds through is my MN M-38 -- even with a pad. Most of this is from the bench though, with some offhand.

Unfortunately, the "often" part is reduced by being able to get away for a full weekend day with an 18-month-old, a wife, a house, a lawn and being the "handy" guy for all sorts of home and inlaw projects.

Charon
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 26, 2007, 08:08:27 PM
Wow, so people DO shoot that much .30-06.  Well, I guess they did in combat too in WWII and Korea before the .223 craze.  My shoulder is sore thinking about it.

Regarding the new Remington 105CTi, Googling reveals quite a few problems with it and some delayed availability.  Also questions about supposedly no way to lock the chamber open at a firing range.  

Still, will certainly take a look at one when it finally gets to an area gun shop.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Toad on September 27, 2007, 08:21:38 AM
I can verify that they are available at the Kansas City Cabela's. While not present in huge quantity, they come in dribs and drabs and there are usually 2-3 in stock at any one time.

Haven't heard of any problems as yet but then I don't talk to many folks that own one either!
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 30, 2007, 07:25:29 PM
Went to the Sporting Clays Intro course today but was disappointed we didn't shoot at every station.  The two instructors said that was not necessary, that by going to four or five select stations we would see all of the various type of shots.

I don't buy that, nor did several other students, but what the heck, close enough.  

I used a Limbsaver pad on my 12-gauge Remington 1100 Field Class 26-inch barrel and got no bruising at all.  Then again, we each fired only about 19 shells. The instructor later suggested my slip-on Limbsaver was not a good idea because it was too wobbly and extended my length of pull too far.

He might have gotten that idea because of the nine students, I was Dudley Do-Wrong, missing all of my 19 shots.  Three other students also used Remington 1100s and did better, but even if they didn't, I know the problem is me and not the gun.

Today I just couldn't manage a decent sight picture.  I don't like two-eyed shotgun pointing-shooting even though I did fine with it last week with a range Browning 12-gauge over and under.  

Obviously the planets were out of alignment.  Or maybe this was just one of those off days.  

Even 0 for 19, I have to conclude sporting clays is a hoot!  Great fun.  Lots of new and different targets all the time.  Some shared principles, of course, but so much variety it's hard to imagine ever getting bored with sporting clays.

However, even the best theory and instruction has its limits.  Next step is to shoot 20,000 rounds and find my own nirvana.  Like ice skating and shooting hoops, practice makes perfect.  

Bottom line: Can't remember when I did worse in something and had a better time.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Golfer on September 30, 2007, 09:54:33 PM
Shooting with 2 eyes open when you've always closed one to aim is a tough nut to crack with shotgunning and pistol shooting.  The big problem folks are the experienced shooters, or at least in their minds they're experienced.  They've usually shot for years and cannot be taught anything because in their minds they're crack shots...how hard can busting a bird be anyway?

Of all the problems I've had teaching folks how to shoot trap and skeet that's the single greatest pain in the butt I've come across.  Even breaking someone from flinching is easy in comparison.

The instructor may have a point when it comes to the pad.  If your stock is overextended the shotgun simply won't fit you anymore.  If you want to use a big pad you can put a youth stock on the gun in addition to the pad bringing it where it's supposed to be.  Beyond that you have three options:

1.) Take the bruising.  I bruise if I shoot enough and get lazy with technique.  It goes away in a couple days just in time for the next week to come around.

2.) Wear an extra layer or two.  Throw on two white t-shirts under a button up or sweatshirt.

3.) Get yourself a good quality shooting vest with an effective yet thin shoulderpad.

As I mentioned I bruise as well but it's because I get lazy with poor technique.  Simply put I'm not holding the gun tight to my shoulder.  I also have a tendency to get lazy with my cheek not resting on the gun and will have a sore right cheek the next day from the gun punching me in the head all day.

The biggest things to make sure of though is that the shotgun fits you.  If you put on an extra big pad to prevent pain you've just grown the stock and it probably doesn't anymore.  If you're also thinking about not getting hurt or bruising that's not only taking away your focus from the shot but making your shots timid whether or not you'd like to admit it.  Nothing you've mentioned hasn't been seen before and the good news is you'll come around :)

Welcome to the addiction!

Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on September 30, 2007, 10:00:52 PM
Helpful and inspiring words, Golfer, thanks.  

Pull!
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Toad on October 01, 2007, 09:38:25 AM
Sporting Clays does present a wide variety of shooting situations. It may not be the easiest way to start out in shotgunning.

One thought for beginning shooters is to start with easy situations and as you master those go for increased difficulty.

For example, get a trap field with just you and the bird boy. Walk up and stand directly behind the trap house (put in an IC or Mod choke for this), and have him pull birds for you. These are pretty easy; as these shots become routine, start moving back a few yards each time you feel proficient at that range, increasing your distance from the trap house. When you eventually make it to the 16 yard line center station. Once there, shoot a round of trap using all 5 of the stations.

Same for skeet; get a field to yourself and start on the 1 or 7 station so that you are working on what are essentially straight away shots or straight incomers. Shoot until you feel have that station down, even if it takes a whole box or more. As you get comfortable with those, begin to work towards the middle stations which will require a bit more lead at each station.

Basically, just work on one simple shooting situation until you get proficient. Then increase the difficulty.

It's sort of like AH; fly a Spit for a while and then challenge yourself.  ;)
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Ripsnort on October 01, 2007, 11:03:42 AM
Toad, that's exactly where I've been starting Gordon, Trap, center position, Improved cyclinder. Good for me too since its been a couple of years since I shot.(however I'm at the 5 position on the left.) :aok
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: forHIM on October 01, 2007, 01:55:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Halo

 The instructor later suggested my slip-on Limbsaver was not a good idea because it was too wobbly and extended my length of pull too far.



Today I just couldn't manage a decent sight picture.  I don't like two-eyed shotgun pointing-shooting even though I did fine with it last week with a range Browning 12-gauge over and under.  


Regarding the slip-on, I'd suggest as Golfer did, get a vest that has a slim pad and/or replace the stock pad with one that is same length, but better at handling the recoil.  A gun too long will tend to mount on your fleshy upper arm instead of on the shoulder where its supposed to.

Regarding the double eye open, I has an eye dominance problem after staring at a computer for my job, so on my shooting glasses I put a small piece of scotch tape in the left eye, so I can still see peripheral and cloudy straight forward, this helped with depth perception and speed/tracking of the clay by my right eye and allows me to keep both eyes open.  When I'm not shooting after work or have a day off before hand, I can usually remove the tape and shoot normal.  Something that I noticed that may or may not help you.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Toad on October 01, 2007, 02:43:22 PM
Browning has gel-pad shooting vests, shirts and jackets.

Might be a possibility for you there; they claim up to 40% reduction in recoil which seem optimistic to me but if you got half of that it might be useful.

Browning Vest w/Reactar pad (http://www.nav.cabelas.com/information/HuntingOptics/Browning174ShootingVests0000188/Browning174DeluxeMeshShootingVest0000188941367a.html)
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on October 01, 2007, 04:21:51 PM
Thanks, guys, good suggestions all.  

I have a Bob Allen shooting vest I like a lot although its shoulder padding is thin.  

I bought a Past Super Mag Plus Recoil Shield that supposedly reduces felt recoil by up to 85%, but it's so thick it would really mess with my length of pull as well probably motivate someone to dial 911 thinking I shouldn't have been let out of the ward.

I'll be in limbo awhile until I shoot a round of sporting clays with the Remington 1100 26-inch barrel without a Limbsaver, and then shoot another round at another range with the Stoeger Coach shotgun 20-inch barrel.  

Then I should have a better idea where I am and where I need to go (free straight line -- fire away!).  

I saw some neat gun carts Sunday, got the e-mail address, and in another burst of pricey serendipity ordered one last night 30 minutes before the fall sale deadline expired.  It's the shooting cart plus some accessories from ruggedgear.com.

So although temporarily missing every shot, at least I'm realizing how even unsuccessful purchases can be positive contributions to the gross (pun intended) national product.

Who says you can't buy happiness?  Easy if you don't let your expectations get too high.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Toad on October 01, 2007, 06:50:31 PM
You can buy the Reactar pad alone for about $15. They are not too thick and I'm sure you could rig it inside your Bob Allen.

I bought a PAST a long time ago when I was shooting 40-60 .300 Wby off the bench working up a load. It's been sitting ever since I got the Weatherby out of its wood stock and into a B&C composite. Just don't need it now. They work though but you're right, they are too thick for shotgunning.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on October 03, 2007, 07:19:19 PM
Shot my first sporting clays course this afternoon.  Great fun and hugely challenging.  

Three firsts for me:  first time shooting sporting clays, first time shooting 5-stand (sort of a mini all-in-place sporting clays), first time shooting 20-gauge (range rental Browning Citori over and under).

Good thing I did tons of research and had a couple tutorials at the range.  No reservations, first come first served, and I signed up first this afternoon.

Then one by one, in come the Wednesday regulars who completed "my" group.  Veterans all, excellent shots and, fortunately, gracious hosts.  They made me feel welcome, watched me closely, and offered tips now and them but didn't suffocate me with advice.  

Although I thought I had plenty of ammo (three boxes, 75 shells) for the 50-shell sporting clays, serendipity intervened in one of the best shooters taking me to the 5-stand before the others got there.

When we finished, I had no time to buy more ammo before the group assembled and headed out to the sporting clays range.  So I shot the usual four shots each at the early stations, then tapered to two shots at the later stations.

Then the entire group decided to shoot 100 rounds anyway, reversing and repeating the entire course.  That is a dedicated bunch.  I returned my range gun then came back and watched and learned more

The top shooters got around 45 of the 50 possibles each round.  In my initiation, I was happy to hit 9 of 30.  

The more you learn of it, the more sporting clays is like golf.  New shooting situations/holes which are changed periodically to keep everything fresh.  

By no means cheap ($18 for 50 shots, plus expected tip of about $4 to the bird thrower), but you get a lot for the money, and it takes a couple hours to complete a round.  For ammo, figure about $5 a box of 25 shells, and you need three to five boxes, so that's about $37 for a 50-shot round and $51 for a 100-shot round.  

Plus the cost of shooting equipment, which also is comparable to the wide range of money you can spend on golf equipment.  

Walk a half mile to a mile or so, double if you go 100 shots.  Nice suburban facility with lots of staff to keep it nice.  Yeah, very much like golf.  So much equipment to carry that three of our seven shooters used gun carts that look a lot like individual golf carts, e.g., three spoked wheels, push or pull.

Even if you travel light with one gun and ammo, that's about eight pounds of gun and 10 pounds of ammo (four boxes of 12-gauge).  Doesn't sound like much, but it can get tedious.  

Some shooters in a hurry or with infirmities ride in actual golf carts.  

All seven us of used over and under shotguns, many expensive, although I was assured that semiautos like my Remington 1100 also are fine.  The biggest guy used 28-gauge sleeves in his 12-gauge on the return round.  I had forgotten such devices were available.  

That diminished recoil just about doubled his ammo cost to around $10 a box.  Supply and demand; 12-gauge is everywhere, some other gauges are not.

The top shooter used 12-gauge 3-dram equivalent with 1 oz of shot.  I forgot to ask him which size, although 7 1/2 is max allowed, and usual range is 7 1/2, 8, or 9.  The way he was shattering most his targets, I'm betting on 7 1/2, which is what several experts tell me they use in sporting clays.  

Will I do more sporting clays?  I'm not fond of demonstrating my incompetence in a crowd of experts, and I know they agree.  Starting any new endeavor like this usually is more fun if you gather contemporaries at work or play and learn together.  

If that is not an option, well, do your homework and listen carefully, and many experienced shooters will be helpful and kind in sharing their sport.    
One guarantee for sure: Sporting clays is never the same and therefore never boring.
Title: Sporting Clays
Post by: Halo on October 03, 2007, 09:31:51 PM
Oops, make that about $69 for a 100-shot round (basically two 50-shot rounds).