Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Mister Fork on September 20, 2007, 06:13:06 PM
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For those of you who are members, please read Easyscor's recent posting regarding maps... :)
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I'm sorry, and no offense to Easycor, but seeing that map really makes me fear for any hope for the AvA. This endless desire to make the AvA a second DA is what keeps the numbers down. The highpoint of the CT was really centered upon the squads that populated it. Without them it will remain a limited planeset DA that can barely draw in 10 people.
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Originally posted by TheBug
I'm sorry, and no offense to Easycor, but seeing that map really makes me fear for any hope for the AvA. This endless desire to make the AvA a second DA is what keeps the numbers down. The highpoint of the CT was really centered upon the squads that populated it. Without them it will remain a limited planeset DA that can barely draw in 10 people.
Bug, don't you think that too many squads are wedded to their aircraft type (or chess piece) to believe that they'll ever be regular AvA squads again? Heck, even the JG54 people stay away during PAC events.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Bug, don't you think that too many squads are wedded to their aircraft type (or chess piece) to believe that they'll ever be regular AvA squads again? Heck, even the JG54 people stay away during PAC events.
- oldman
No I don't believe that. Historical Arena is how I envisioned the CT. Fighting arena is how I see the current AvA. It has a very vocal and opinionated group of people that are sticking up for what they enjoy/believe in. Not that I can blame them. But this "for the good of the loud few over the good of the many" would need to stop to see people return. Make it historical. Screw the 1-1 bowlsheet and the no HOs. That structured format can be easily found/setup in the DA. Give the players an arena that can't be found anywhere in AH outside of scheduled events. Give them a historical arena. If there is no desire for such a thing, than I feel sorry for HTC developing Combat Tour.
But I don't want to get into it too much, because emotions start to come into play and people (myself included) start to get pissed off. Just thought I'd inject a little. Gave a the AvA a try again a few months ago, no place for a squad to operate so we left. Still hoping and praying for a home again. As I am sure many of the historical based squads are.
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I nearly broke my neck running to look in the bathroom mirror. My eyes don't look bloodshot and my tongue isn't covered with white spots, my skin isn't blotchy and there's no pus oozing from open sores.
I’m completely mystified how I could find myself healthy and agreeing with The Bug so completely but there it is. Guess I'll crawl back under the hood and get to work on the assignment. Don't despair, there are other things in the pipeline if you want to expand on that theme.
My own view would bring back large historical terrains with easier base captures, not harder, to encourage small 5-6 man squads to go in, who could accomplish something in two hours. I was thinking of something along the lines of the old AH1 towns to cause a fluid war front.
As for PAC setups, they'll never do as well as they should until the holes in the planeset are filled, and maybe not even then.
Ouch, ouch, ouch! Put that hickory stick down Mister Fork.:cry
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You're not sick.
You're just coming to your senses. :D
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I agree that many like "Historical". A lot participate in scenarios and that is probably the closest to "Historical" you can get. I think people will like CT and it will be reasonably "Historical" and fun because the boring parts of "Historical" will be removed.
Scenarios work because of a lot of organization/planning and players agreeing to a set time and specific role.
CT will work ok because the organization is programmed in and the empty slots are filled in by AI.
That being said, I don't really know what is meant by saying an open arena should be more "Historical". You make the planes, fm, skins, terrains, matchups "historical" - then what?
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I'm not trying to be antagonistic...I'd actually like to see the AvA take off. My perspective (and again its one viewpoint) is that the moment the squads arrived the CT died...
Why, because they rolled the map up in a few hours or altered the balance in numbers/style of gameplay and effectively chased 80% of the player base out.
you can easily create a combined arms skill based arena...
1) eliminate base capture entirely
2) only ords and fuel are porkable
3)limited pane sets at any field
4) only tactical jabo (no 4 engine strat bombers)
5) front line is fighter only with attack/buff birds out of deeper fields
6) a defined front line that is 3 to 5 objectives deep. Capturing all gorund objectives "turns off" the corresponding front line field till that sides 1st level is recaptured....
Use "shore batteries" and manned ack placements in the GV jabo defense roll. Use some city, town and clustered farm type stuff with traditional map rooms for "capture points" with some auto ack defense. clustered SB's could mimic hardened artillary...
You would have a real war that would combine all aspects of the game to simulate real objectives. To slog thru the "contested area" you would need significant Jabo assets, GV's etc. you'd have real targets...to attack and defend.
Lets say your last defense "city" had 3 maprooms guarded by 4 shore batteries plus a variety of "auto" and manned ack. you'd need a concentrated effort...or a jeep squad (based on capture #'s) timed to a 110 jabo to kill all the acks (just an example).
If your gonna go the combined arms route...give em a different war. One they cant get in the MA or scenario. You dont capture bases...you capture ground and towns....also if you can work it with current tiles (can you make custom ones?) then bridges/rivers with SB's ack. How tough was it to force the rhine...or the muese?
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Very interesting and original suggestion humble. I think it is worth a try.
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ergRTC....
I have no clue if what I wrote up is even possible....but if the intent is to go with a "capture" type enviornment then I think changing the nature of game play is paramount. Literally offer a different game using the same parts.
Buffers want to buff...well taking out the 3 "shore batteries" overlooking your sides line of advance is alot tougher and has an immediate impact if you've got 2-3 squaddies waiting to roll thru...(just an example)
Basically every "skill" is now employed specific to winning a "real" ground war. Further...every skillset would be needed to win...you'd need guys who can furball, tank, Jabo and buff. If you eliminated individual "scoring" and only scored objectives (either by side or squad) you'd now have a "result" based system tied directly to the "war'.
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1) eliminate base capture entirely
2) only ords and fuel are porkable
3)limited pane sets at any field
4) only tactical jabo (no 4 engine strat bombers)
5) front line is fighter only with attack/buff birds out of deeper fields
6) a defined front line that is 3 to 5 objectives deep. Capturing all gorund objectives "turns off" the corresponding front line field till that sides 1st level is recaptured....
More great ideas. Thanks Humble.
1 - doable. We've been doing that already in setups time to time.
2 - Can do. Just need to adjust hardness of field objects.
3 - we've run setups like that. but its always a nice feature but hard to do in our large maps.
4 & 5 - we've run setups like that too. but I think we need more squads to help us out.
6 - in the works. ROC is workin on it. :)
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Just out of curiosity, what do you guys mean by historical set up? Historical as in destroy 10 buildings, drop 10 guys and capture a base most likely undefended? Is that historical in your opinion? What really bothers you? That your P51 may have to fight another P51? Does that ruin your day or is it the BS about about HOing and ganging that bothers you? You can still do that you know. Everyone does it. You guys act as if these things are unheard of in the AvA. It is actually the norm, so dont let that misconception stop you. Comon in and fly HOistoricly.
Nothing in this game is historical and your claim is that because plain sets are not, the AvA is empty?
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Originally posted by TheBug
Give the players an arena that can't be found anywhere in AH outside of scheduled events. Give them a historical arena.
That's what I wish it was.
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Originally posted by Trukk
That's what I wish it was.
Originally posted by dedalos
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys mean by historical set up?
Originally posted by KONG1
That being said, I don't really know what is meant by saying an open arena should be more "Historical". You make the planes, fm, skins, terrains, matchups "historical" - then what?
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Historically Realistic: A gaming experience that recreates, as much as possible a real combat mission, while at the same time being entertaining.
This means the focus is on flying and surviving the mission, like it was in real life. It's not capturing bases, not furballing, etc.
It means turning off DotDar, pilots in WWII did not have a datalink to an AWACS. One of the skills of a good WWII pilot was the ability to spot the enemy early.
It means that some missions will be milk runs, some you will get hammered and some you will be doing the hammering.
It means that the majority of the time a pilot will not be aware he is being attacked until he is being shot at.
It means that you will have to fly more than five minutes to the enemy, and if you get shot down you are out if it as the fight will have finished or moved on before you can fly back.
It means having gaming experinces that make you go "wow it was just like that book I read", not the History channel everything is instant action boiled down into 42 minutes. I could go on, but basically it's what I'm hoping Combat Tour will be.
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why not go whole hog, no icons for bad guys. it will have a negative population though because them the place is already a ghost town.
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Originally posted by Trukk
Historically Realistic: A gaming experience that recreates, as much as possible a real combat mission, while at the same time being entertaining.
This means the focus is on flying and surviving the mission, like it was in real life. It's not capturing bases, not furballing, etc.
It means turning off DotDar, pilots in WWII did not have a datalink to an AWACS. One of the skills of a good WWII pilot was the ability to spot the enemy early.
It means that some missions will be milk runs, some you will get hammered and some you will be doing the hammering.
It means that the majority of the time a pilot will not be aware he is being attacked until he is being shot at.
It means that you will have to fly more than five minutes to the enemy, and if you get shot down you are out if it as the fight will have finished or moved on before you can fly back.
It means having gaming experinces that make you go "wow it was just like that book I read", not the History channel everything is instant action boiled down into 42 minutes. I could go on, but basically it's what I'm hoping Combat Tour will be.
The only thing you have suggested here is turning off dot dar. The rest is just what you would like the result of changes to be. So what changes would you make to the arena setup to accomplish these results.
If wishes were horses...
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Originally posted by storch
why not go whole hog, no icons for bad guys. it will have a negative population though because them the place is already a ghost town.
Sure, as soon at the average computer screen has the same resolution as the human eye. That would be cool as heck.
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Originally posted by KONG1
The only thing you have suggested here is turning off dot dar. The rest is just what you would like the result of changes to be. So what changes would you make to the arena setup to accomplish these results.
I'm not familier what is or isn't possible with arena setups but...
- Big, realistic map, up for a month.
- DotDar off.
- ENY off.
- Nothing captureable.
Back in the spring we had several squads flying weekly missions we called HARM missions sometimes they were really fun but it was so hard dealing with, ENY, Pizza Maps, Jets, etc. You justs could not plan a fun realistic event on a regular basis and if you can't be consistant it's awfully hard to keep guys interested.
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Historically and realistically speaking:
IT WAS NOT FUN.
Carry on.
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If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. I'm fully aware that this would have no appeal at all to furballers, but it would be nice to have one arena that is different from all the others.
I can't imagine it requiring a whole lot of server to host an arena like the AvA, too bad we couldn't have two AvA arenas. The current furball one and a "Historical" one.
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I made the supposition that historically, it was not fun.
In the next post you wish for a historical arena.
Just curious. Do you think my supposition incorrect and believe it was actually fun or are you saying you want an arena that is not fun?
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Well you're post came of as more of a "I'm taking my ball and going home" type of thing. Since in real life people's lives were on the line, to even ask the question "was it fun in real life" seems pretty much a self answering question if you think about it. The point is pretty meaningless anyway, since the exact same thing could be said about furballing.
But no one is trying to convince you, of what you should find fun to do. It's your money, play as you see fit.
I just think there is an audience that would be interested in a more realistic game experience than just insta-furball. Something that is sorely lacking from AH, but which I hope will be addressed when Combat Tour comes out.
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So it's the historical that kept people playing in AvA?Large real maps?Easy bases?
Well good to know my new map is everything that.Because if it is quick action up and die that keeps people in AvA (this is how it is now and there is no people in the AvA) my map won't be a success.
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duhs got some awsome avaworthy maps with great distances ext...
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went in there last night for a spin. there were some players playing historically. that means that historically no one wants to die. these are the types of players that find the SEA to be exciting and invigorating I'm sure. if becoming a historical arena is the goal and last night was leaning towards authenticity then count me out. I spent an evening trying to get a decent fight out of four to six timid ack running unskilled I gotta live like it's real tardlettes and in my opinion it's more fun to watch paint dry.
I never thought I'd see the day when I would be happy to see 1duck1 on and yet...... when the fighting players were showing up I had to log because 0500 shows up around here at 0500.
make it historical but it will be emptier than what it is now if that's at all possible.
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You guys are labeling anyone looking for a fight a furballer. That is not true. Furballers look for a furball to pick as many planes they can before they die. I and a lot of the regulars are not going in the AvA to furball. We go there for the occasional good 1 vs 1, 2 vs 1, 2 vs 2 etc. Don't confuse looking for a good fight with furballing.
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For me, "historical" means limited planeset... whatever is appropriate for the scenario that week. I think that's the only thing that should be different from the MAs. Any restrictions beyond that will drive people away.
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You know alot of people posting here are looking for "tour of duty", well keep waiting... don't try to make this areana into that.
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Originally posted by Dux
For me, "historical" means limited planeset... whatever is appropriate for the scenario that week. I think that's the only thing that should be different from the MAs. Any restrictions beyond that will drive people away.
Yep. But we have that already. That's why I keep asking what they want changed
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Originally posted by dedalos
You guys are labeling anyone looking for a fight a furballer. That is not true. Furballers look for a furball to pick as many planes they can before they die. I and a lot of the regulars are not going in the AvA to furball. We go there for the occasional good 1 vs 1, 2 vs 1, 2 vs 2 etc. Don't confuse looking for a good fight with furballing.
dang boy, I'm very proud of you. that hit the nail on the head. very good description dedalot.
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Originally posted by Dux
For me, "historical" means limited planeset... whatever is appropriate for the scenario that week. I think that's the only thing that should be different from the MAs. Any restrictions beyond that will drive people away.
and has been. lord knows we need some gentlemanly rules but beyond that nothing. the only exception I would make is the limit to number of bases that can be captured so as not to reset the arena.
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Originally posted by storch
dang boy, I'm very proud of you. that hit the nail on the head. very good description dedalot.
STOP IT!!!!:furious You are giving people the impression that we are friends :rofl
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Is that like Rush Limbaugh giving credit to some liberal democrat who goes on to get shunned by his own?
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na, five minutes in the arena will surely convince them otherwise.
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Originally posted by VWE
Is that like Rush Limbaugh giving credit to some liberal democrat who goes on to get shunned by his own?
:rofl
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As long as you don't use the AvA as a dueling arena, fine. Base captures? lol Is not the AvA supposed to be historical and not like the MA? Diversity is good, if you want to take bases, go to the MA, if you want to match up for good fights, go to the dueling arena, if you want historical fights, go to the AvA.
Is there anything wrong with that? Or do some of you just want to ruin the AvA for some reason that completely eludes me.
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One thing that mess up the AvA arena for sure, is the constant change of maps and planesets. In the MA you change maps but all planes are always available. In the AvA you change maps and planesets, it can go from a US, GB vs GE setup to a US vs JP setup, which would throw off anyone who want to fly GE planes, like me and the squad I'm in.
Concerning the MA I'd rather see a country vs country setup like there is in Fighter Ace but I guess that won't change since all current maps are built the way they are plus the planeset for each country would have to be fairly balanced and the community probably don't want it either. Old habits die hard. So the MA is where most of the action is today, simply because you can fly anything you want and that's where you find most ppl logged on.
What I mean is, for players who want to be in the AvA and fly a certain country, it's not possible to go there on a regular basis. Since the maps change and with it the planeset and countries, you are forced back into the MA. If you remove the AvA arena and in its place set up a European war arena and a Pacific war arena, you might see more people in those arenas on a regular basis. I for one would only fly a European war arena, if there was one.
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That would be a neat idea, to have a Pacific arena and a European arena.
I don't know if it would attract anymore players, but it's a neat idea.
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The more things "change" ... the more ....
Ahem. ;)
Hmmmm .....
I miss you, honey. :D
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Yes Arlo, your statement is entirely true, the constant change in the current AvA is a problem. :p
I can't imagine people are going to miss the current AvA.
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Originally posted by toonces3
That would be a neat idea, to have a Pacific arena and a European arena.
I don't know if it would attract anymore players, but it's a neat idea.
My memory is not as good as it once was, but wasn't that a setup on AW? If I recall it worked pretty well.
Split the AvA arena in half, have a ETO arena and a PTO arena. That would allow the hardcore, I'm dedicated to this country's planes to always have a scenario running in the AvA.
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Originally posted by Tiger
My memory is not as good as it once was, but wasn't that a setup on AW? If I recall it worked pretty well.
Split the AvA arena in half, have a ETO arena and a PTO arena. That would allow the hardcore, I'm dedicated to this country's planes to always have a scenario running in the AvA.
Yeah, well, where are those people now when their country's planes are in the setup?
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Yeah, well, JG11 has been there a few nights recently trying to stir things up, but it's difficult. The arena needs a jumpstart to get things going.
Build it, and they will come. ;)
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Funny.
You know Dedalos, I logged in the other night. I only stayed because you were on and I wanted to fight you. Thought cannons might give me the edge to beat you finally.
After our fight I was on my way back out. I flew halfway to England, sat over the channel and even posted my location and altitude on 200.
There was either a 2v1 or 2v2 going on about 5-10 miles away, so I patiently waited out of icon range, waiting for somebody to die and disengage so I could participate.
Eventually I see the two red dots headed my way. In the process of banking and looking around for them, I inadvertently climbed to GASP! 7k from 5k.
I see on 200, "Is that Dedalos over there cherry picking in the 109?"
Might have been a joke, I dunno. Turns out you had logged.
Had a fun fight, got shot down, and logged myself.
Funny. I waited out over the water, posted my position and altitude, stayed out of a 2v1 until it was complete, DIVED DOWN TO 5K BEFORE THE ENGAGEMENT, and still was accused of cherry picking.
I'm not even sure how this is relevant. Not sure what my point is either. I wonder how much fun it was for Mr. Cherry Picker comment to play with himself though.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Funny.
You know Dedalos, I logged in the other night. I only stayed because you were on and I wanted to fight you. Thought cannons might give me the edge to beat you finally.
After our fight I was on my way back out. I flew halfway to England, sat over the channel and even posted my location and altitude on 200.
There was either a 2v1 or 2v2 going on about 5-10 miles away, so I patiently waited out of icon range, waiting for somebody to die and disengage so I could participate.
Eventually I see the two red dots headed my way. In the process of banking and looking around for them, I inadvertently climbed to GASP! 7k from 5k.
I see on 200, "Is that Dedalos over there cherry picking in the 109?"
Might have been a joke, I dunno. Turns out you had logged.
Had a fun fight, got shot down, and logged myself.
Funny. I waited out over the water, posted my position and altitude, stayed out of a 2v1 until it was complete, DIVED DOWN TO 5K BEFORE THE ENGAGEMENT, and still was accused of cherry picking.
I'm not even sure how this is relevant. Not sure what my point is either. I wonder how much fun it was for Mr. Cherry Picker comment to play with himself though.
I have no idea as to what you are trying to say. I was gone by then. Who said it? I'll tell you if it was a joke or not, lol.
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I don't remember. It doesn't really matter.
I had a point, I'm just not sure what it was.
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Originally posted by toonces3
I don't remember. It doesn't really matter.
I had a point, I'm just not sure what it was.
lol. There was only 1Duke1 on the alies side when I logged. If he said it, you can be sure he was kidding.
BTW. Stuff on 200 are not accusations. You don't have to stand on trial lol. Most of the times are just for fun
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Twasn't me :) I think Soulyss might have been on also, as I remember after all the axis logged, I swapped over to axis to fight him, but not sure if this is the same night.
But don't remember any calling anyone a cherry picker,but might have missed it as I was pm'ing Ded in one of LW's calling him a whiner:aok
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Originally posted by 1Duke1
Twasn't me :) I think Soulyss might have been on also, as I remember after all the axis logged, I swapped over to axis to fight him, but not sure if this is the same night.
But don't remember any calling anyone a cherry picker,but might have missed it as I was pm'ing Ded in one of LW's calling him a whiner:aok
:O I thought you were calling me a winner :cry
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Originally posted by dedalos
:O I thought you were calling me a winner :cry
He tells me I'm "number 1" with the wrong finger.:huh
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Probably the same finger I use to give
s.
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Yeah, he wasn't callin you a winner but a weiner... think you need stronger glasses.
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My belief is that anyone who has any opinion about gameplay here at one point clicked on the AvA menu button for the first time. The first time, your expectation was most likely little more than looking for some Axis versus Allies action (true to it's name). :cool: Some of us were looking for the old Combat Theater menu button. :aok
Maybe the long anticipated Combat Tour is creating an urgency for us AH junkies to fill in between the scenarios with a perfect place to practice (er, I mean play).:lol Development for AvA has been unfairly burdened with the brunt of this void.
Personally, I look for an arena where I can choose my weapon and meet a similar challenge of that day. In other words 262 versus 262 wouldn't occur. :rolleyes: Plane sets period.
Now that I have said that, I wouid expect also, the amount of damage on non vehicle targets un-muted. That is where a lot of problems for the AvA seem to appear. Map resets and field captures appear to be built in features of the AH map architecture. :confused:
If I am right, staff members can become bogged down, just keeping a map playable. My question is, can the maps be made unpenetrable up to a certain point, without massive staff envolvement and still allow for damage to items occur un-muted?