Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hap on September 21, 2007, 09:18:59 PM
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http://buchanan.org/blog/?p=854
Buchannan assesses if terroism be a mortal threat or no to America. We are a greater threat to ourselves than terrorists sez PJB.
I agree.
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Pat's out of the loop...he sounds like some kind of liberal.
shamus
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We are no more or less safe than we've ever been. Our awareness of being vulnerable is awakened that's all.
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Terrorism in 1970s/80s was worse compare to today.
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Originally posted by 1K3
Terrorism in 1970s/80s was worse compare to today.
Maybe-too many things have changed on the world stage. The fall of Soviet Russia has a massive effect on things. The ascendance of China, and also the growth of Islam in Third-world countries...It's a much different world, now.
Taken from the Link:
Race, ethnicity and religion are the fault lines along which nations like Iraq are coming apart. If America ends, it will not be the work of an Osama bin Laden. As Abraham Lincoln said, it will be by our own hand; it will be by suicide.
This, I agree with totally. America gets more and more divided like this every day.
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To a point we are being attacked and losing by virtue of the very ideals we cherish.
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so. let's stop doing it.
let's appreciate opposing views, let encourage them. let's promise ourselves to try to learn something new from time to time.
lets drop party lines and get back to the basics.
please.
lets rebuild our country.
lord knows we have it in us.
it wouldnt be the first time.
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Originally posted by JB88
so. let's stop doing it.
let's appreciate opposing views, let encourage them. let's promise ourselves to try to learn something new from time to time.
lets drop party lines and get back to the basics.
please.
lets rebuild our country.
lord knows we have it in us.
it wouldnt be the first time.
Wise words, i wish the rest of America would hear that.
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Originally posted by AAolds
To a point we are being attacked and losing by virtue of the very ideals we cherish.
It's Bush and his idiotic thought process, i think some of the alchohol or cocaine fried his brain. But he appears to have always been stupid in comprehension, and reasoning skills.
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
It's Bush
Two street carts collided in down town Saigon today. The extent of the injuries were not readily available.
It is rumored that this was a clever ploy by Bush.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Two street carts collided in down town Saigon today. The extent of the injuries were not readily available.
It is rumored that this was a clever ploy by Bush.
:rolleyes:
That must be what's occupying his thinking, because he won't do anything about illegal immigration...the guy's a total sweetheartbag, IMHO.
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
It's Bush and his idiotic thought process, i think some of the alchohol or cocaine fried his brain. But he appears to have always been stupid in comprehension, and reasoning skills.
Lead,
You can't really believe that??:huh
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Buchanan was just agreeing, for the most part, with Colin Powell. The part about mentioning insignificant middle east eports but for oil is to ignore the elephant in the room though. Oil is what makes the middle east significant so long as it is the life blood of every country's economy. Wars have been fought over it and likely will be again.
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Every terrorist scumbag that assumes room temperature is good for the world, not just the United States.
To turn your back, ignore the problem and hope things get better just invites disaster.
Seek them out and destroy them.
Passive defense is like the Maginot Line. It looks impressive but gives a false sense of security.
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Originally posted by uberhun
Lead,
You can't really believe that??:huh
Of course i think he's an idiot, he can't plan or see anything coming, can't comprehend a situation and foretell a possible outcome. What really irks me is that the soldiers are having to pay for his lack of intelligence, foresight, and planning and are having to deal with operational concerns that a smarter president would have taken care of for them. He's a dimbo and the soldiers are having to eat a huge ***** sandwich because of it. Even worse is the denial and smokescreen they put up to make it seem everythings allright, at the soldiers expense. I really wish a soldier would slap him in the face the next time he visits them, and tell him about what he's done instead of kissing his arnold. Two thousand of Bush's lives aren't worth the life of one PFC they send home in a body bag to me. If he had the guts to go to Vietnam (since he's a strong president as he says) i would rather have seen him die in that than the 4,500 people we've had die in this mess. He's a scumbag i hate his guts.
I think if you had a measurement standard that could possibly measure everything to do wrong he has just about done all of it. He's obviously smart, you can't fly F-101 Voodoo's and F-106's and be dumb, i know this being a pilot myself, even never having flown planes that complex. But his brain cells ain't working to good.
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Originally posted by Blooz
Every terrorist scumbag that assumes room temperature is good for the world, not just the United States.
To turn your back, ignore the problem and hope things get better just invites disaster.
Seek them out and destroy them.
Passive defense is like the Maginot Line. It looks impressive but gives a false sense of security.
Just wondering if you had a clue as to why "they" pretty much hate, and have hated, the US .gov?
I suggest you read this article then ask yourself how you'd feel if a "Mandella" like fella in your country was summarily replaced by the US .gov to secure Oil interests, which was then followed by US puppet that ruled with brutal oppression for 26 years. Why do you think the "insurgents" are fighting like banshees to keep the US out of the mid east? they experienced a f'ed up US puppet once, for 26 years, and didn't like it too much. Would you?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.html
"While Americans may know little about Operation Ajax, its memory still evokes intense anger from nearly every Iranian."
"In essence, the United States had engaged in a massive covert operation designed to remove a democratically elected leader from power and reinstall an authoritarian monarch..."
"This affair had several disastrous ramifications for the future of American-Iranian relations. First, the Shah, from that point forward, was viewed as a creature of America.Consequently, America became an accessory to his every oppressive act during the subsequent 26 years of his rule"
"Second, the American embassy in Tehran was permanently marked as a "nest of spies" in the eyes of the Iranian populace. And third, Iranian democracy was strangled in its crib"
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We had to destroy our freedoms to protect them.
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x0847Marine, let me update you, it's not 1953, it is now 2007.
time to move on.
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The question isn't "Why do they hate us?"
It's rhetorical.
Who cares. What's done is done.
The question is why you think if the Dems can just lose the war maybe they can get a person in the White House.
Vote to put good men out on a limb just so you can saw it off?
War is a very terrible thing but to vote for something that you're against is worse. It's treason.
You voted for war. You've got it. Now, win it! We've all been down the other path. Why repeat that mistake?
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Originally posted by john9001
x0847Marine, let me update you, it's not 1953, it is now 2007.
time to move on.
And that's something the Iranians would not forget.
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Many insist that 'education' and 'winning the hearts and minds' of the populations that the terrorrists come from is the best approach.
BS. This politically correct yuppie idealism that is fed to the star trek generation of today is the worst approach to defeating terrorrism... in fact it HELPS the terrorrists not only to operate but also expand their influence and widens their 'coverage' to a global audience.
These populations are constantly portrayed as the 'poor innocent victims', the folk we 'must help', a people misinformed and manipulated by the wicked masterminds, etc etc. But has anyone really taken a look at who these populations really are? what they are?
It is not possible to educate or woo a host of people from diverse ethnical backgrounds living all around the globe in all economical and social strata that blindly follow a mob of power hungry lunatics who need only thump their fingers at a text written thousands of years ago in order to recieve the blind obedience of these masses. Stalin once labeled people of this ilk as the 'useful idiots'.
Unlike Europe and Western civilizations however, these populations the Terrorrists come from have their society and religions stuck in the medieval ages while their economical and technological development has been given to them from the West. There was no 'Age of Reason' for these societies.
In essence, they are ignorant medieval peasants armed with missiles and machine guns fighting for warlords who aim only to maintain and fatten power base and profits by feeding the peasants with religious and social hate towards an outside enemy. And these warlords often ally themselves with the Popes of terrorrism because they provide the best outside enemy for the peasants to vent their misery against. Today that outside enemy is the Western civilization.
Western civilization cannot defeat terrorrism without forcing the social and religious beliefs of the societies they recruit from out of the picture by education or by weaning them through several centuries worth of personal enlightment. There is simply not enough resources or manpower to do this.
Only two civilizations in the past have been able to successfully deal with these situations: the ancient Chinese and the Roman empire.
Their approach was simple and effective. Awe and Woo the troublesome people into willingly assimilating BEFORE sending the army in... or kill them off if they do not assimilate after conquering them. In both Asia and Europe you will find just how many tribes/societies/cultures these two ancient superpowers wiped out .. and you may also notice that the Chinese and Roman empires are perhaps the only two societies that survived for almost a thousand years (if not more).
Nowadays of course, we cant simply send in troops to wipe everyone out. We cant educate and woo them either.
So how to defeat them? By targeting the very source of the Terrorrist's power base: the useful idiot societies. This is achieved by Denying their existance.
Denial of existance attacks the core of a SOCIETY (not individuals or the small elite groups in power) and focuses them into a situation of 'extremis' from which the society either dissapears or emerges completly changed.
Steps:
No media coverage - Arafat is a prime example of this. Without a TV camera he had no power and no influence. Terrorrism depends completely on the media to exist.
Denial of Resources - Society X is the prime source of terrorrists and funding and it happens to sit on top of the world's oil supply? Take the oil fields from them.
Denial of Trade - no trade or economical agreements to be made with such societies. With no trade comes crisis and crisis is what makes the useful idiots turn against the warlords that failed them.
Denial of identity - with passports no longer valid, no international recognition of statehood and inability to enter into agreements with other peoples/nations, the denial of identity has a tendency to have a divided society become a single entity. If they dont get their crap together they die off and dissapear. Has happened plenty of times in the past.
Denial of Sanctuary - Refusal to allow people from these societies to emigrate to other nations. As cold hearted as it sounds, this is a vital step in the process. The people seeking to emigrate are the very people that are discontent with their own society and are the very people who are the catalyst for creating the extremis.
...and many more.
This all sounds terrible and horrible by modern standards and morals but I believe that babysitting a people is not the way to deal with their problems; you need to give them a swift kick in the butt and let them fend off for themselves and only THEN will they grow up and stand on their own.
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He is basically right.
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... but his solutions are simplistic and not doable.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
We had to destroy our freedoms to protect them.
This is so insane. I personally do not feel that my freedoms are any less than they were pre-2001 nor have I experienced this other than removing my focking shoes prior to jumping on a commercial jet because of some dingdong that wanted to add to the carnage shortly after 9/11.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Chairboy
We had to destroy our freedoms to protect them.
What freedoms have you lost?
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Originally posted by john9001
x0847Marine, let me update you, it's not 1953, it is now 2007.
time to move on.
I'll bet a lot of Iranians have moved on from the Ajax days tho.. and moved onto to new refreshing reasons to hate like the US supporting Iraq in an 8 year war, US $$ supporting more despotic lunatics that oppress their "brothers" in Egypt, Pakistan, Jordan, and a few others patently stupid moves by the rejects in charge.. oh like the fiasco in Iraq.
Forget, easy enough... nobody living in the US can relate to what life is like as the result of some stupid idea from another country. But those wacky Persians, they hold grudges for 1000 years.. and something (common sense) tells me they wont be forgetting Ajax history lessons anytime soon since the whole Iraq debacle has only validated their paranoia about the US, again, trying to overthrow their .gov and subject them to another despotic lunatic like the Shah... all in the name of democracy dont ya know.
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Originally posted by Blooz
The question isn't "Why do they hate us?"
It's rhetorical.
Who cares. What's done is done.
The question is why you think if the Dems can just lose the war maybe they can get a person in the White House.
Vote to put good men out on a limb just so you can saw it off?
War is a very terrible thing but to vote for something that you're against is worse. It's treason.
You voted for war. You've got it. Now, win it! We've all been down the other path. Why repeat that mistake?
If you don't understand how a problem started , you will not know how to fix it.
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X-Marine you are thinking way above the grain of what most Americans can tolerate or comprehend, kudos to you for that. Don't bother about being persecuted or misunderstood for it, most folks will come around much longer after you have and are just plain dense.
If more people understood the reason for the hatred, we'd have better more acurate solutions on how to fix it.
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Terrorism is a war waged of mind and heart, if you do not address it at the level at which it starts, which is the feeling of hatred and where that begins and confront it at that level and the reasons that cause this feeling. You will never fully neutralize it. Terrorism must be stemmed in the hearts and minds of every child before it blossoms into the level of full blown hatred, and that must cause America to pause in self reflection of it's own possible actions and the recourses caused by it's own policy and percieved attitudes.
A bullet cannot identify and kill the hatred in the hearts and minds of people before they have enacted the act of violence against us. Since it is impossible to identify the hatred that exists in the heart's and minds of all the people that may commit a terrorist act against us. No physical weapon brought against a metaphysical thought which is the impetus of all hatred will ever be able totally wipe out the feeling that is terrorism.
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ledpig... for someone who doesn't even understand the American soldier and what he wants you sure seem to claim an accute understanding of everyone.
Anyone who agrees with you is smart and anyone who doesn't is just stupid. You come by all this superior insight because... well... because you "feel" it... you "believe" it... obviously.. anyone who doesn't feel or believe as you do is simply "plain dense".
To not agree with you... based soley on feelings no less... is to "not comprehend".
I hope that you are not a full formed adult or a some bitter, disabled adult has been and that there is some hope for you but... you seem more invested in your opinions than simply just the normal student mush head soaking up the peer ideas of students and profs who have never been in the world.
I do think it is good for you to come on here and have your carefully peer reviewed liberal views be "critiqued" tho. I am sure it is frustrating for you. To have such a handle on everything by discusing your feelings with other liberals and then not getting through to the "dense" people here.
The reality is that there are terrorists who hate us. they want us dead. The reality is that we often give them cause because we like to live the way we do... the reality is that they will attack us.
The reality is that I don't care. I would rather fight them somewhere else and it really doesn't matter where. The reality is that if my freedoms are restricted even a tiny bit.... I don't even fly anymore because it is depressing for instance.. if my freedoms are infringed... that it ten times worse than them blowing up some blue voter city with a dirty nuke...
nothing good for my personal freedoms ever comes out of those blue cities anyway.
lazs
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Those are my opinions, i respect your opinions, do i feel i am right or wrong, not necessarily, those are just my thoughts, i could be right, i could be wrong, but i am open to changing them.
Another thing you seem to think just because i think the way i do i am a textbook liberal. Liberals suck, as well as conservatives. You strike me as a textbook conservative, you say the same thing as all the others i've ever heard, do i think you don't have a mind of your own because you sound like them? No, i just think that that's what you think and leave it at that, no harm done.
On terriorsim...the way were fighting it.....you might as well be fighting a ghost in a wet paper bag, while blindfolded. It will do you just as much good, hence to me the expended effort is misdirected and is a waste. The soldiers energies and lives are being wasted by people in power who don't understand this. I feel they are not taking responsibility for their poor planning and understanding and are throwing it on the backs of the soldiers, who are dieing with it, while they try to save face. Leaders of this country should not do that to it's protectors. That is not the American way to me, and it hurts me to see. America should be open enough to change it's mistakes, not stuborn enough not to see them. That is the first sign of the end for any group, including a country.
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
On terriorsim...the way were fighting it.....you might as well be fighting a ghost in a wet paper bag, while blindfolded.
US and Iraq troops found a bomb making and arms/ammo facility, they called in a air strike and destroyed it. Big secondary explosion. Did you miss it on the news? I guess the "ghost in the wet paper bag" is having a headache right now. :p
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Sure that's a regular occurence, John. How often do you think they have a target identifiable enough to call in an air strike? You think that one is going to make a difference? They need to be able to do that allot more often to win it that way.
Let's see them call in an airstrike in on Muhhammed wearing jeans and a t-shirt crouched around a building with a RPG aiming it a group of unsuspecting soldiers. Or Ahkbar and Quasay kneeling in the dark to set up a road bomb that the troops will drive over two days later. Real cost effective way to wage war, keep doing it that way if you want, and we won't have an arm and a leg left to defend ourselves after they've blown it off.
Might as well hold a line of firecrackers in your mouth to remove a cavity and hope for a good outcome.
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
Let's see them call in an airstrike in on Muhhammed wearing jeans and a t-shirt crouched around a building with a RPG aiming it a group of unsuspecting soldiers.
suprize suprize, they can do that. :D
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Originally posted by john9001
suprize suprize, they can do that. :D
Not nearly enough, though, Technology alone can't win a war.
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Originally posted by JB88
so. let's stop doing it.
let's appreciate opposing views, let encourage them. let's promise ourselves to try to learn something new from time to time.
lets drop party lines and get back to the basics.
please.
lets rebuild our country.
lord knows we have it in us.
it wouldnt be the first time.
Unfortunately, that is contingent on one side surrendering its views to the will of the other...when it's called 'openmindedness' it means the conservatives caved, when conservatives dig in their heels, it's called 'gridlock'. There is rarely room for compromise...as the two approaches in these matters are so different. Such is life
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Not nearly enough, though, Technology alone can't win a war.
maybe you should ask the survivors of saddams elite battle hardened republican guard.
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You will never destroy terrorism by using the military. You can destroy every "terrorist nation" on earth. You can occupy all of their lands and actively seek out terrorists, but there will always be more terrorists to take their place. No matter what you do, no matter how rigorously you control the population and spy on it terrorism will always flourish. There is only one way to deal with terrorism and that's not to give the terrorists any reason to hate us.
They hate us for what we are doing around the world, they hate us for our involvement in their nations and their politics. All of that is none of our business. We have no reason to have troops in the middle east, none what so ever. Why do we still have troops in Europe, we have no business being in their country. How would you feel if we started to allow Germany and England to establish military bases in our nation? I for one would be pretty pissed. Our nation was never intended to be involved militarily with so many nations. When one of those nations is dragged to war we're always dragged into war with it. How can any of you red blooded Americans deny what our Great President Thomas Jefferson meant when he stated "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." The only reason anyone gives for staying in other nations is for "our safety" but by getting involved in military alliances and policing the world all we do is grow more opposition.
Look back on history, and you will see what I am saying is fact and not my own opinion. We are responsible for our actions as a nation. Please do not empower those with an agenda against us by giving them a reason to hate us. Every war we fight over seas, every government we overthrow, every atrocity we commit is ammunition terrorists recruiters use to attract people to their cause, can't you see it? There was no Al-Qaeda and few, if any, terrorists in Iraq before we invaded. Thousands upon thousands of people have joined Al-Qaeda and engaged in terrorism after we invaded.
Just some food for thought. i am do not have some kind of agenda against the United States. I love this country and value the existence of our great Republic. However its survival is at stake, because we are not pursuing the correct course of action in world affairs. Dont believe me? Fine, don't take my word for it, take General Wesley clark's word for it in This Video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SXS3vW47mOE). I hope he's wrong but those are certainly some troubling words. People just open your mind and consider the possibility that our nation may not be on the right track, at least consider the possibility, you don't have to embrace it.
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Originally posted by Soviet
You will never destroy terrorism by using the military. You can destroy every "terrorist nation" on earth. You can occupy all of their lands and actively seek out terrorists, but there will always be more terrorists to take their place. No matter what you do, no matter how rigorously you control the population and spy on it terrorism will always flourish. There is only one way to deal with terrorism and that's not to give the terrorists any reason to hate us.
Terrorists will always be there, you will never get rid of all of them no matter how/what you do. Same as bias and prejudices will never be a thing of the past.
The best you can do is confront what you can when it appears and watch for the rest. People always find away to hate others, whether race, greed, religion, social standing, etc. it will be there. Appeasement usually only gets the person appeasing the happy thought that the appeased is now satisfied. The only problem with that is it only works when you give them what they want everytime they want it, doesn't matter if its fair and reasonable to you. Is there truely a "hearts and Minds" formula? Only if your deal to that individual is constantly better than the others.
I agree, a middle ground needs to be found between the 2 extremes. But almost impossible given human nature is that each side wants 51% of the pie. And the side that didn't get 51% will beleive that instead of getting the other 49%, they only got 10%.
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Originally posted by john9001
maybe you should ask the survivors of saddams elite battle hardened republican guard.
John, the Republican Guard was a mass identifiable army, not two or three guys with AK-47's and slingshots. Don't you get that by now?
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
X-Marine you are thinking way above the grain of what most Americans can tolerate or comprehend, kudos to you for that. Don't bother about being persecuted or misunderstood for it, most folks will come around much longer after you have and are just plain dense.
If more people understood the reason for the hatred, we'd have better more acurate solutions on how to fix it.
I just happened to go to be enrolled in the 90210 school system in the late 70s / early 80s, the Shah was on the way out and the city was flooded with uber rich Iranians. Predictably the Jewish kids sat at the opposite end of the cafeteria, both sides traded verbal insults / arguments to the amusement of folks like me, in the middle, who didn't care.
I wrote off their crazy stories of a "US overthrow" of their .gov, as low budget mellow-drama conspiracy BS. My country, the land of the free, wouldn't support a despotic crapbag like the Shah, US officials on TV always praised the dude as some type of mid-east warrior for peace & justice.
Then I looked into their crazy stories, there had been no mention of anything like they described on the news, or in my so called "history" classes... and found some info on operation Ajax, and suddenly understood quite clearly why these Persian kids were kinda pissed, where their angry rhetoric came from.
The average Iranian / mid east dude gets up in the AM and has the same concerns / motivations we do, they don't sit around hating on strangers 1/2 a world away because we have for porn, "free speech" & elections, I'll even bet a great number are exactly like my soon to be x-wifes family; they'd love to live the USA despite the lethal blunders of our so called leaders, and once here they'd become proud Americans.
This bumper sticker verbal vomit about "they" hating our freedoms should be too stupid for any critical thinker to even consider, it flies in the face of reality. Every time "they", the haters, are asked what their problem is, they tell us: its your .govs idiotic foreign policies.
But predictably there isn't enough spine or testicle in DC to man the f-up and admit what their parties are responsible for, neo-clowns like Giuliani would rather shout down informed folks like Dr. Ron Paul, then follow up with some sappy speech that plays on patriotic emotion that will surely end any reasonable debate. Giuliani shows us why 5 years act like 5 year olds and throw tantrums, because it works, everyone in the room focuses on whatever fit the kid is having and stops adult conversation.
And Bushs response to this hate? by far the biggest most deadly foreign F-up imaginable, the abject incompetence of the Bush administrations handling of the Iraqi people serves as a ton of salt on the open wound. Operation Ajax, support for tyrants worse than Saddam, all that other stuff is peanuts compared to the folly in Iraq.. but the only people that will pay for for this will be the military class, and probably a few more thousand regular Joe / Jane US citizens who get hit with a "terrorist" attack. Bush and his tulips of evil will be safe somewhere watching Sponge Bob, the repubs & Dems wont lose power and their pals in the industrial military complex will grow filthy rich and have lots of extra cheese to support their congress.
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Originally posted by AKKaz
Terrorists will always be there, you will never get rid of all of them no matter how/what you do. Same as bias and prejudices will never be a thing of the past.
The best you can do is confront what you can when it appears and watch for the rest. People always find away to hate others, whether race, greed, religion, social standing, etc. it will be there. Appeasement usually only gets the person appeasing the happy thought that the appeased is now satisfied. The only problem with that is it only works when you give them what they want everytime they want it, doesn't matter if its fair and reasonable to you. Is there truely a "hearts and Minds" formula? Only if your deal to that individual is constantly better than the others.
I agree, a middle ground needs to be found between the 2 extremes. But almost impossible given human nature is that each side wants 51% of the pie. And the side that didn't get 51% will beleive that instead of getting the other 49%, they only got 10%.
I agree a middle ground must be found between full scale all out war. Sending the worlds most powerful technological army against a bunch of guy's wearing street clothes setting out banana peels and bubble gum and waiting anonymously for us to step in it, is not an efficient way to run a war. However full scale hearts and minds appeasement won't work either. Bending down and grabbing our ankles totally won't work, they'll just take advantage. We must find a middle ground.
I really hope President Bush won't go and mess the situation up with Iran way before it is completely nessecary that we go to war with them. I think if we acted less antagnistic at this point (such as agreeing to see the Pres of Iran when he comes to see you) and more respectful, we might even be able to get Iran to work with us. We gotta bargain untill we find bargaining is not necessary. We can't bargain with terrorists. It is too late they hate us already so they must be killed with violence. However people who are not terrorists, we must portray ourselves in a different light. We can help cut down terrorism alot in the future by how we work with people and what they feel about us.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
I just happened to go to be enrolled in the 90210 school system in the late 70s / early 80s, the Shah was on the way out and the city was flooded with uber rich Iranians. Predictably the Jewish kids sat at the opposite end of the cafeteria, both sides traded verbal insults / arguments to the amusement of folks like me, in the middle, who didn't care.
I wrote off their crazy stories of a "US overthrow" of their .gov, as low budget mellow-drama conspiracy BS. My country, the land of the free, wouldn't support a despotic crapbag like the Shah, US officials on TV always praised the dude as some type of mid-east warrior for peace & justice.
Then I looked into their crazy stories, there had been no mention of anything like they described on the news, or in my so called "history" classes... and found some info on operation Ajax, and suddenly understood quite clearly why these Persian kids were kinda pissed, where their angry rhetoric came from.
The average Iranian / mid east dude gets up in the AM and has the same concerns / motivations we do, they don't sit around hating on strangers 1/2 a world away because we have for porn, "free speech" & elections, I'll even bet a great number are exactly like my soon to be x-wifes family; they'd love to live the USA despite the lethal blunders of our so called leaders, and once here they'd become proud Americans.
This bumper sticker verbal vomit about "they" hating our freedoms should be too stupid for any critical thinker to even consider, it flies in the face of reality. Every time "they", the haters, are asked what their problem is, they tell us: its your .govs idiotic foreign policies.
But predictably there isn't enough spine or testicle in DC to man the f-up and admit what their parties are responsible for, neo-clowns like Giuliani would rather shout down informed folks like Dr. Ron Paul, then follow up with some sappy speech that plays on patriotic emotion that will surely end any reasonable debate. Giuliani shows us why 5 years act like 5 year olds and throw tantrums, because it works, everyone in the room focuses on whatever fit the kid is having and stops adult conversation.
And Bushs response to this hate? by far the biggest most deadly foreign F-up imaginable, the abject incompetence of the Bush administrations handling of the Iraqi people serves as a ton of salt on the open wound. Operation Ajax, support for tyrants worse than Saddam, all that other stuff is peanuts compared to the folly in Iraq.. but the only people that will pay for for this will be the military class, and probably a few more thousand regular Joe / Jane US citizens who get hit with a "terrorist" attack. Bush and his tulips of evil will be safe somewhere watching Sponge Bob, the repubs & Dems wont lose power and their pals in the industrial military complex will grow filthy rich and have lots of extra cheese to support their congress.
Marine i'd vote for you, at least you understand the reason beneath all this. Most Americans don't have a clue. They don't want to admit such things about our country and they use that "your unpatriotic bull****" as a superficial propoganda insult. People like you and me don't pay attention to people like that and look for the real reasons underneath the political smokescreen. People like that believe what the politicians say and go along with it. Politicians tell them sure we treat everyone good as roses, not totally true, that's why they hate us. If you don't understand that you won't have a clue how to address this war and the current situation. I'm not that easily intimidated or gullible. I'm like Joe Friday, all i want is "The facts, just the facts mam".
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soviet... I agree that terrorists will always be with us... for various reasons... it is not as simple as "take away their reason to hate us"
If for instance their reason is that we won't make our women wear masks or that we won't bow to their 9th century religion... or that we simply are a bad example by our vary existence.
You are also correct that we will never be rid of them...
Sooo... given those two undeniable facts... the very best we can do is to minimize their ability to organize. We can't appease em because... even if we convert... we will live in terror under their rule.. we can't walk away from em because they will bully and terrorize weaker nations into supporting them or outright converting to their sick interpretation of a religion.
If we pick a country in the heart of their region... their playground... any one will do.. and we make it so that it is invulnerable to their influence... their hold on other countries is much lessened...
If we fight them and lose our will... walk away... what message does that send to countries who are trying to figure out what to do with their problem?
Like I said tho... I don't care... so long as it doesn't affect anything but the idiotic blue cities here... I already hate the airlines and metal detectors and all the BS homeland security stuff.. If we walk away.. that won't end. It will become more because the democrats are better at restricting their own citizens than fighting. We will see the terrorists emboldened by our wussing out and appeasment and they will attack us and the democrats will simply make life worse for us here over it with more bans and restrictions.
lazs
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Originally posted by john9001
maybe you should ask the survivors of saddams elite battle hardened republican guard.
And I'll kindly point you to Ho Chi Mihn, and the Vietnam war.
The difference between The republican guard and the Viet Cong? A little thing called willpower, salted with determination.
Saddam's regular army collapsed. They could'nt wave their underwear over their heads' fast enough. The 'elite' republican guard formation's simply could not stand by themselves, no matter what method we chose to use against them.
In Vietnam, the VC stood against our technology and won...sometimes, by going as lo-tech as possible. The root of they're campaign was to win as much support to they're side as possible. Now, jump up 30 years, and look at Iraq today. The insurgents' seem to have taken the example set forth by the VC. Boobytraps, sporadic engagements, Winning popular support, Out-of-country sanctuaries...The Iraqi insurgents seem to have been taught by former VC.
Now, I will say the Tech. helps, to be sure...It might be what wins you a battle or two. But, It takes alot more to win the war.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
And I'll kindly point you to Ho Chi Mihn, and the Vietnam war.
The difference between The republican guard and the Viet Cong? A little thing called willpower, salted with determination.
Saddam's regular army collapsed. They could'nt wave their underwear over their heads' fast enough. The 'elite' republican guard formation's simply could not stand by themselves, no matter what method we chose to use against them.
In Vietnam, the VC stood against our technology and won...sometimes, by going as lo-tech as possible. The root of they're campaign was to win as much support to they're side as possible. Now, jump up 30 years, and look at Iraq today. The insurgents' seem to have taken the example set forth by the VC. Boobytraps, sporadic engagements, Winning popular support, Out-of-country sanctuaries...The Iraqi insurgents seem to have been taught by former VC.
Now, I will say the Tech. helps, to be sure...It might be what wins you a battle or two. But, It takes alot more to win the war.
Well put
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Originally posted by lazs2
soviet... I agree that terrorists will always be with us... for various reasons... it is not as simple as "take away their reason to hate us"
If for instance their reason is that we won't make our women wear masks or that we won't bow to their 9th century religion... or that we simply are a bad example by our vary existence.
You are also correct that we will never be rid of them...
Sooo... given those two undeniable facts... the very best we can do is to minimize their ability to organize. We can't appease em because... even if we convert... we will live in terror under their rule.. we can't walk away from em because they will bully and terrorize weaker nations into supporting them or outright converting to their sick interpretation of a religion.
If we pick a country in the heart of their region... their playground... any one will do.. and we make it so that it is invulnerable to their influence... their hold on other countries is much lessened...
If we fight them and lose our will... walk away... what message does that send to countries who are trying to figure out what to do with their problem?
Like I said tho... I don't care... so long as it doesn't affect anything but the idiotic blue cities here... I already hate the airlines and metal detectors and all the BS homeland security stuff.. If we walk away.. that won't end. It will become more because the democrats are better at restricting their own citizens than fighting. We will see the terrorists emboldened by our wussing out and appeasment and they will attack us and the democrats will simply make life worse for us here over it with more bans and restrictions.
lazs
Lasz well put as well on the top part, we can't totally appease them and we can't go all out technology conventional war on them either.
But that part about democrats restricting. Who's restricting so much now that people are starting to worry about their freedoms? Isn't it Bush and his administration. Who's getting us killed in Iraq with almost nothing to show for it because he can't understand the situation. Isn't it Bush as well?
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Originally posted by lazs2
soviet... I agree that terrorists will always be with us... for various reasons... it is not as simple as "take away their reason to hate us"
If for instance their reason is that we won't make our women wear masks or that we won't bow to their 9th century religion... or that we simply are a bad example by our vary existence.
You are also correct that we will never be rid of them...
Sooo... given those two undeniable facts... the very best we can do is to minimize their ability to organize. We can't appease em because... even if we convert... we will live in terror under their rule.. we can't walk away from em because they will bully and terrorize weaker nations into supporting them or outright converting to their sick interpretation of a religion.
If we pick a country in the heart of their region... their playground... any one will do.. and we make it so that it is invulnerable to their influence... their hold on other countries is much lessened...
If we fight them and lose our will... walk away... what message does that send to countries who are trying to figure out what to do with their problem?
Like I said tho... I don't care... so long as it doesn't affect anything but the idiotic blue cities here... I already hate the airlines and metal detectors and all the BS homeland security stuff.. If we walk away.. that won't end. It will become more because the democrats are better at restricting their own citizens than fighting. We will see the terrorists emboldened by our wussing out and appeasment and they will attack us and the democrats will simply make life worse for us here over it with more bans and restrictions.
lazs
I support going after any individuals that engage in terror but you need to understand that our foreign policy has failed. By invading Iraq all we have done is create more terrorists. Don't think that the rank and file al-qaeda members won't rest until Islam is brought to America or until all of our women are wearing Burqas. That's just the talk of the loonies in charge, most people are engaging in terrorism because they just want to resist the US occupation in Iraq. Also those in charge of this country are using Bin Laden's out there messages to just keep us engaged in this failing war on Terror. It's naive to think that most members engaging in terrorism in Iraq are "Al-Qaeda." Al-Qaeda is just prividing the inspiration for individuals in Iraq to rise up against the US occupation in Iraq. By remaining there we're empowering dissent against us by giving them a reason to hate us. To them we look like the big bad occupying force that kills their civilians. Whether that's true or not that's how we appear. Honestly what are we doing by staying in Iraq? We're just endangering our national security, so what if Saddam was a bad guy? That was none of our business, we can't just replace world leaders and topple governments because we think they're bad. We considered the Soviets bad people during the cold war but we did not engage in a war of preemptive with them. The most dangerous think as that Americans have accepted the doctrine of preemptive war in recent years which is a fundamentally un-American ideal.
Don't mistake what I say for pacifism. I believe in squashing terror but there are better ways to do it than a full out conventional ground war, it failed in Vietnam and it will fail in Iraq. The war in Iraq will not be won, no matter how long we stay there, there will always be people rising up against our occupation. It's Vietnam all over again and no one will admit it.
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the VC in Vietnam were wiped out in the tet offensive. They did not "win", the north Vietnamese army was also defeated.
nixon forced the north to the peace table, after nixon left office the democratic congress cut off ALL military support to the south and two years later the north invaded the south and won.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
I suggest you read this article then ask yourself how you'd feel if a "Mandella" like fella in your country was summarily replaced by the US .gov to secure Oil interests, which was then followed by US puppet that ruled with brutal oppression for 26 years.
The reason Iranians hate the US is because we are a convenient scapregoat so they do not have to blame themselves.
Their Shah (the US puppet that ruled with brutal oppression for 26 years) was Shah since his father abdicated under Russian pressure in 1941.
In 1951, the (mandela like) Dr. Mossadegh became Prime Minister, committed to nationalization of something called British Petroleum, so the British government invited Theodore's grandson, Kermit Roosevelt, to London to talk of the overthrow of Mossadegh.
In 1953, massive communist demonstrations weakend Mossadegh political power and (right wing elements of) the Iranian Army, wishing to restore the monarchy overthrew Mossadegh. The democracy lasted a scant 2 yrs.
The plot (Operation Ajax) consisted of coordination, bribery, and protection and transportation of the Shah.
If there weren't Iranians who provided the manpower for the coup, it would not have been successful.
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Originally posted by john9001
the VC in Vietnam were wiped out in the tet offensive. They did not "win", the north Vietnamese army was also defeated.
nixon forced the north to the peace table, after nixon left office the democratic congress cut off ALL military support to the south and two years later the north invaded the south and won.
Exactly, we lost as the American public realized how much of a quagmire Vietnam actually was. The same thing will happen with Iraq, any of you who support the war are already a minority by a long shot. Most American people do not want this war any more. Just like Vietnam wasn't any of our business Iraq wasn't either.
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well soviet.. our policy may or may not have "failed" as you put it... I have no access to that data... our general on the ground and the troops say that we are making progress...
It is undeniable that we have made policy mistakes and mistakes of estimation of strengths and weakness but... I am not aware of any conflict...ever.. where this was not the case...
The point is that we are where we are at this point..
The problem I have with your and ledpigs critique... is that no matter how I scrutinize your posts.... I see no solutions being offered..
To me a well rounded critique should include some ideas of how.... not so much it should have been done (20/20 hindsight) but....
What do we do now? not fantasy things like send in the super hero squad of white guys to go to foreign countries and assasinate em... but real solutions for THIS WAR.
I say we are pretty much stuck with it... I don't think that is such a bad thing tho.
What are Americans "tired" of? what sacrafices are we making for this war? Where are the thousands of protesters in the streets every day?
No... I don't think most Americans care that much one way or the other.
Personally... I don't care that much either... no skin off my butt either way... I don't care about skyscrapers or cities full of blue voters much...
I do care about and support our troops... I care about what they say and what they want. They want to finish... it is undoubtably (I think you can agree) in our best interest to have a success there but....
Like I said.. who cares? If the soldiers start telling me it is a waste then I will support them on that too.... right or wrong...
since it is they...not you or I... who are doing the heavy lifting... we are doing NOTHING.
The only way to support the troops is to help them achieve whatever that is that they want to do.
with that in mind... and taking into account that the surrender monkeys have no real plan except "run and hide" for a solution... I see no point in not simply giving the military the time it needs to decide one way or the other.
lazs
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Even if the democratic congress hadn't cut off funding (they realized it was pointless) the VC would have whiped or tulips using the peashooters they were using while we mobilized F-105 Thunderchief squadrons and sent them to hit dirt in the middle of the jungle. Iraq is equally stupid and pointless.
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There have been thousands of protests. I never see them reported by the media but I live 25 miles away from New York City and am usually there at least 2 or 3 days out of the week. I've witnessed massive anti-war protests taking up city blocks. Here's a list of every single war protest ever had against the war in Iraq http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War)
Yes, I have a solution. We stop policing the world, we stop having our troops in military bases throughout the world. George W. Bush ran on the platform of no more nation building like we had with Clinton. Instead he's engaged in more nation building on a larger scale than any President in recent history. The war in Iraq isn't working, let's bring the troops home. Progress is not being made, we have the same amount of troops there as we did last year. Troops are still dying in a large number like we are. Neo-conservatism has destroyed the Republican party and has taken away many of the party's supporters, do you really want to see a liberal President in 2008? Do you really want Barrack Obama or Hillary Clinton to win? Greater than 70% of Americans are now against this war, supporting it could prove to be suicidal in 2008. This same support cost the party the election in 2006
I recommend all of you take a look into Dr. Ron Paul's campaign. He's a man of principle who has some very good ideas on what this nation should do. Don't take my word on what to do, take this 10 term US republican congressman and medical doctor's take. http://www.ronpaul2008.com/ (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/)
The Republican party used to stand for small government which is why I voted for George Bush in 2000. I favor small government as that's the way America is intended to be under the US constitution. Now all we have is a Democratic party that wants to use big government to make a welfare state and a Republican party who likes to use big government for war and the military. There is an alternative and Ron Paul is that.
True conservatives favor small government and are against war.
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ledpig.. you really need to read about the vietnam war and Abrams contribution. We were winning in a big way. even the government of south vietmam was coming along... the vietcong did not defeat us.. we never lost a battle and we inflicted losses that they could not sustain.
Most of the northern generals will admit that they were on their last legs... even after the democrats betrayed the south vietnamese army with funding.. they managed to hold off the north on their own... often with 10 rounds of ammo per man.
We were "defeated" or, forced to leave.. not by the enemy but by the media and the politicians and by the fact that our young men would not fight in a war were we were not allowed to attack those supplying the enemy.
Iraq is really nothing like vietnam.. there is no "north" that we must keep hands off.... there is no government we are fighting. There are no draftees wondering what in the hell our goal is and why we aren't attacking the enemy.
And.... admit it or not... there are no demonstrations.... Americans really don't care much one way or the other... a few polls... some gains by democrats in elections... no demonstrations of thousands every day... no deserter soldiers on the news every night with stories of hoplessness and massacres...
I have lived through one event and am now living through another and believe me.... they are nothing alike. I doubt the war is even discussed once a week by anyone except politicians out to get some advantage out of it and their media hacks trying desperately to sell another newspaper before they go under.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
well soviet.. our policy may or may not have "failed" as you put it... I have no access to that data... our general on the ground and the troops say that we are making progress...
It is undeniable that we have made policy mistakes and mistakes of estimation of strengths and weakness but... I am not aware of any conflict...ever.. where this was not the case...
The point is that we are where we are at this point..
The problem I have with your and ledpigs critique... is that no matter how I scrutinize your posts.... I see no solutions being offered..
To me a well rounded critique should include some ideas of how.... not so much it should have been done (20/20 hindsight) but....
What do we do now? not fantasy things like send in the super hero squad of white guys to go to foreign countries and assasinate em... but real solutions for THIS WAR.
I say we are pretty much stuck with it... I don't think that is such a bad thing tho.
What are Americans "tired" of? what sacrafices are we making for this war? Where are the thousands of protesters in the streets every day?
No... I don't think most Americans care that much one way or the other.
Personally... I don't care that much either... no skin off my butt either way... I don't care about skyscrapers or cities full of blue voters much...
I do care about and support our troops... I care about what they say and what they want. They want to finish... it is undoubtably (I think you can agree) in our best interest to have a success there but....
Like I said.. who cares? If the soldiers start telling me it is a waste then I will support them on that too.... right or wrong...
since it is they...not you or I... who are doing the heavy lifting... we are doing NOTHING.
The only way to support the troops is to help them achieve whatever that is that they want to do.
with that in mind... and taking into account that the surrender monkeys have no real plan except "run and hide" for a solution... I see no point in not simply giving the military the time it needs to decide one way or the other.
lazs
Lasz i've said it a million times. Stay in Iraq. Now thats it's been started. Strengthen the policing forces as much as we can, and get the hell out. Not "stay the course to nowhere" to infinity. Stop being antagonistic with Iran, it hasn't got to that point, if we keep acting as we have it will get to full scale war. What will most likely happen is this.. we leave it stays toghether for the most six months, people start atacking the new powers and American installed institutions. As things weaken Iran will get more and more involved, probably invade, (unfortunately i don't think diplomacy will help this). Mass craziness in the region spreading into surrounding territories. The U.N. gets involved, we try to stay out, terrorism strenthens, we all go to hell. I wouldn't have started it the first place, i say pull out in a little while, go more covert and seek out the individual terror cells and destroy them, instead of trying to throw a blanket over a flea using the U.S. Army and hoping your going to catch it.
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There is no draft. If there was a draft you would see massive protests in the street, and with good reason. That's the only reason there were protests constantly during the Vietnam war and there aren't as many today, but they still exist. Don't count protesters as the only ones that disagree with the war. Most Americans are against this war, not all are protesting but the majority of Americans are not against this war anymore. Support the troops, BY BRINGING THEM HOME.
Oh and regarding the protests, just because the news doesn't report it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. This is the same press that was pressured into not photographing the dead brought home from the war. A direct violation of the first amendment right of freedom of the press.
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soviet... first you say you have a solution and then... you say...
Bring the troops home... that is not a solution... that will solve nothing except bring home troops that really don't want to leave just yet.
You do give solutions for the future. that doesn't help right now with this situation... try to think in the present.
As for the demonstrations? pitiful... even NPR admits that the demonstrations just don't exist in any meaningful way. They are so lame that even the press ignores em... halfhearted at best and not well attended... Face it.. Americans aren't that fed up. If we suddenly had some real progress showing...or even one week of good news from Iraq would change the polls in an instant.
As for ron paul... sure but it's a sucker bet. I am an individualist... kinda like a libertarian but not so whimpy... I know that libertarians probly would give me more of a government that would fit me than the other two parties but...
I also know it is a fools bet... a fart in the wind... suckers bet. never happen.
The best thing a libertarian could hope for is to get republicans to vote for him... he will never get a democrat to vote for him. All a libertarian can do is hurt the republicans.
That would be fine except... that would allow a democrat in. I am not fond of republicans but would 100 times rather see the worst republican in than the best democrat.
just as a strong ralph (nutcase) nader is good for republicans... a strong ron paul is good for democrats.
Why do you think ron paul is maskerading as a republican and not a democrat?
A democrat is the exact oppossite of a libertarian while a republican is just a degree off from one.
lazs
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well... this is a turn of events.
ledpig.. we agree.. we need to stay long enough for the iraqi police and military forces to recover and take over... we are doing that and making progress (according to the general and troops) we need to stay to help em train and take over.
and soviet.. that is very perceptive.. there is indeed no draft. Why do you suppose that is? why do you suppose the democrats want it so much?
No.. we have learned some lessons it would appear.
As for the media not covering the demonstrations? come on now... I really give you a lot more credit than that... you must admit how desperate that one looked? You are not that dumb as to say that the media is a supporter of the war effort to the point of suppressing bad news on any front...
If the protests were not so pitiful the media would be rolling in em like a dog in 3 day old road kill. with the same gleefully glazed look in their eyes.
lazs