Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: x0847Marine on September 22, 2007, 02:01:02 PM
-
Yea this is a cannibalized post.
An alternate view, more accurate than any party formulated BS bumper sticker imo, about why "they" hate the US. Might put a little context as to why so many people in the mid east welcome the opportunity to fight Americans; a time honored tradition in that part of the world: payback.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.html
"While Americans may know little about Operation Ajax, its memory still evokes intense anger from nearly every Iranian."
"In essence, the United States had engaged in a massive covert operation designed to remove a democratically elected leader from power and reinstall an authoritarian monarch..."
"This affair had several disastrous ramifications for the future of American-Iranian relations. First, the Shah, from that point forward, was viewed as a creature of America. Consequently, America became an accessory to his every oppressive act during the subsequent 26 years of his rule"
-
Would you even consider the possibility that not everything is America's fault?
Would you even consider the possibility that the religion of Islam is not a religion of peace and their more radical members are dangerous extremists?
I know you are part of the blame America first crowd... yes you plainly are so there is no point in disputing it, but is there any part of your conscience that could give just the slightest consideration to the above possibilities?
-
Steve, I have a question for you.
Why do you think many people have a 'hate' on for the USofA?
-
Operation Ajax destroyed a dream of many young iranians.
In an unbloody revolution the high respected prime minister Mossadegh managed to force the dictator Shah Reza Pahlevi to italian exile.
Mossadegh himself could have put himself as a new Shah on the throne. He was a member of the Kadjar family which ruled Iran as Shahs until the 20ties.
But he wanted to build a democracy.
His fault was that his politic was not acceptable for the UK and US government. So a "counter-revolution" was made and the Shah was reinstalled.
To avoid that the Shah could be kicked out of power again the secret services, especially the CIA and the Mossad trained the SAVAK, the imperial iranian secret police.
In the following decades the SAVAK tortured and eliminated ten-thousands of iranians, most of them those who wanted a democracy of western style.
This terror made the iranians so desperate that they just wanted to end the situation. They just wanted the Shah regime kicked out, the SAVAK kicked out and the terror ends.
Finally, after a massacre against demonstrating peoples the situation escalated and the bloody revolution happened. The Shah, who always dreamed being a new Cyrus the Great fled Iran like a reborn Daryavush III.
The iranians were first happy that the terror of the Shah had ended. they feared a second Operation Ajax and a second reinstallation of the Shah-terror-regime.
That was used by the creatures around Ajatolla Chomeini and suddenly the iranians had to realize that they just had changed one terror regime with another one.
But when the arabs of Saddam attacked Iran the iranians stopped all inner political fightings, because the nation was threatened by arabs. So in the the 8 years of this bloody war the mullahs couls establish and secure their power.
Today most of the iranians want to kick out the mullah regime. But this time they want to be sure that the successor will not be a next terror regime.
And after watching what happened in Iraq they surely dont want that foreigners establish anything new in Iran.
The democracy in Iran must be created by iranians of Iran and not dreaming exiles of Tehrangeles or MEK-supporters of Europe.
And now just imagine how stable the region would be, if the dream of Prime Minister Mossadegh would have become true and Iran had been developed itself to a democracy. We would have a strong non arab nation which would built an natural alliance with the other non arab states in the region : Turkey and Israel.
But so we have to pay the price for a stupid decision made 50 years ago.
-
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Steve, I have a question for you.
Why do you think many people have a 'hate' on for the USofA?
You have put words in my mouth that I have never uttered. Request to answer bait question: DENIED
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Would you even consider the possibility that not everything is America's fault?
Would you even consider the possibility that the religion of Islam is not a religion of peace and their more radical members are dangerous extremists?
I know you are part of the blame America first crowd... yes you plainly are so there is no point in disputing it, but is there any part of your conscience that could give just the slightest consideration to the above possibilities?
It's not "Americas fault", blame lies squarely on the spineless shoulders of our so called leaders and their foreign policies disasters of yester year, yesterday, today, tomorrow..
Seriously, you think the average middle eastern haji wakes up in the morning wicked-pissed that strangers in a country 1/2 a world away have porn, jury trials and Britney spears? And that these freedoms so infuriate him, and his pals, Blood thirsty crazy Muslims want to follow us home like Lassie and blow up soccer moms?
I'm sure to a simp like Shrub, this makes perfect sense, and its under 10 words.
But here's a crazy idea, lets ask that haters whats up?
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2002/nf20020415_0109.htm
Zogby surveyed residents of 5 Arab nations, 3 non-Arab Islamic, and 2 others "The bottom line: While they have overwhelmingly negative reaction to U.S. policy positions, Arabs and Muslims are not opposed to all things American.
Gee, imagine that.. when asked, they're not against all things American after all, but do hate our policies.
But don't let reality and truth get in the way of some bumper sticker propaganda goodness, hating freedoms!? holey donkey!!! those freak'n camel humping *******s probably hate apple pie, mom and baseball too!!
-
Ever since WWII and the bomb the US goverment felt like it could be the worlds cop. It was going to decide the rules and enforce them. As a result they have made some extremely stupid decisions.
Make a clean start with the next president. STOP playing world cop.
Apologize for past mistakes, but make the point that they were not "my" mistakes. IE they happened under other presidents. Quit worrying about the world, and go back to worrying about us, we have more than plenty to worry about.
Redo or make a new foreign policy committee with some decent talent to help keep us from screwing up again. And the next time the CIA tries to change who's running a country, disband it, cut the funding, and fire every one of those sob's.
-
xmarine... I do think the average isloamofacist wakes up with a hate for a people half a world away that he has probly never seen except on tv.
He does so because charismatic leaders tell him that he must... he does so because they tell him that it is not his fault or... more importantly...their fault that he is living a 9th century life and that having a religion stuck in the 9th century is not the reason.
Some of our less well thought out and/or greedy operations don't help but... it would have been this way regardless.
lazs
-
Indeed they do fear our freedoms as perhaps well they should. To embrace western culture, at least as practiced in the US, would virtually destroy their religion centered society. They have only to observe our transformation over the last century to see that this is true.
-
sheesh... you guys have more in common than differences.
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Would you even consider the possibility that the religion of Islam is not a religion of peace and their more radical members are dangerous extremists?
Maybe you should consider that your point of view is discriminatory hatred. Islam is a religion of peace. There are unfortunate elements in their society that are fighting back for a crime that was committed in the late 40's after the formation of a country through land that was stolen. Sadly, that is not a way to create peace, but is instead a way that is fostering hatred amongst members of the west (who can not sem to remember the reason the underlying cause of the problem). Until the west, that created the problem initially, collectively apologizes for the crime of theft of the lands and promises it will never happen again, then we will continue to have the problem of terrorism in the middle east.
One last thing for you to think about. Iran in not an Arab nation. They are Persian.
The league of Arab Nations (which does not include Iran) has agreed to a peace accord with Israel if they comply with the formation of an independent Palestinian state and a promise that Israel will take no more land. Israel refuses to comply.
Think a bit deeper now, do you really believe that the Iranians are going to be able to threaten the Israeli's while they have a peace accord with the Arab world? Do you think they, the Iranians, are not going to be held accountable for irradiating Arab lands if a peace were to exist between the Arab World and Israel?
-
Putting a bounty on the heads of cartootnists and writers who offend Islam doesn't further the idea that Islam is a religion of peace.
-
US troops murdering innocent Iraqi citizens does not put forth the idea we are there to help.
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
US troops murdering innocent Iraqi citizens does not put forth the idea we are there to help.
If those "innocents" had done more to prevent Saddam from invading a peaceful neighbor and then threatening for 12 years those who put things right we wouldn't be cleaning up their house. It's too convenient for the Saddam apologists to forget these facts imo.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Indeed they do fear our freedoms as perhaps well they should. To embrace western culture, at least as practiced in the US, would virtually destroy their religion centered society. They have only to observe our transformation over the last century to see that this is true.
That's ironic considering that the actions of the UK and US turned a secular government into a theocracy.
And now of course, they are doing the same thing in Iraq.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
That's ironic considering that the actions of the UK and US turned a secular government into a theocracy.
And now of course, they are doing the same thing in Iraq.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
-
Originally posted by AKIron
If those "innocents" had done more to prevent Saddam from invading a peaceful neighbor and then threatening for 12 years those who put things right we wouldn't be cleaning up their house. It's too convenient for the Saddam apologists to forget these facts imo.
It also seems convenient that anytime anyone questions the actions of the west in Iraq that they are labeled a "Sadaam apologist" or some other imbecilic term.
Yet, anytime someone wants to lump the entire Islamic world into one of violence and killing it is just fine.
Seems kind of hypocritical AKIron.
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
It also seems convenient that anytime anyone questions the actions of the west in Iraq that they are labeled a "Sadaam apologist" or some other imbecilic term.
Yet, anytime someone wants to lump the entire Islamic world into one of violence and killing it is just fine.
Seems kind of hypocritical AKIron.
How else would you describe someone who says Iraq would be better off with Saddam still in power? This is not a rhetorical question.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
How else would you describe someone who says Iraq would be better off with Saddam still in power? This is not a rhetorical question.
Who here has said Iraq would be better off with Sadaam still in power?
-
Bodhi, are you sure they dont hate us because Alexander the great conquered Persia? That must have hurt their national pride.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
xmarine... I do think the average isloamofacist wakes up with a hate for a people half a world away that he has probly never seen except on tv.
He does so because charismatic leaders tell him that he must... he does so because they tell him that it is not his fault or... more importantly...their fault that he is living a 9th century life and that having a religion stuck in the 9th century is not the reason.
lazs
Bingo.
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
Who here has said Iraq would be better off with Sadaam still in power?
Can you be very clear then and say you supported the US invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam?
-
Originally posted by john9001
Bodhi, are you sure they dont hate us because Alexander the great conquered Persia? That must have hurt their national pride.
I suspect much of the hatred that exists in the leadership in Iran is because of the issues surrounding the creation of the Shah and that error. I do not believe that the average Iranian hates the US, instead they aspire to emulate our democracy but fear that failure will only lead to persecution and the formation of an even worse theocracy.
-
Originally posted by john9001
Bodhi, are you sure they dont hate us because Alexander the great conquered Persia? That must have hurt their national pride.
Looking back on my history lessons, I'm not sure the history books ought to say "conquered" Persia any more than the US "conquered" Iraq... Yea we have the power to kill every living creature there and we have 100,000+ troops with nearly universal freedom of movement, but to call it conquered implies that they're brought into the nation-state entity of the invaders.
If you want good examples of regions that were conquered and stayed conquered, look at North and South America. Western Europe did a fine job with South America and the East coast of North America, and the indiginous people never came back as political entities until deliberately allowed to.
I don't remember, but how long did Persia stay conquered?
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Can you be very clear then and say you supported the US invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of Saddam?
I can and have said I supported the removal of Sadaam. He was a murdering tyrant that deserved what he received. Iraq on the other side has gotten the short end of the stick.
The plan that we invaded with was an extremely flawed plan, and something that is going to tie us to occupation in Iraq for many years to come. This is something that our administration and the JCoS never thought about. We would been much better off appointing a man like Patreus to begin with. General Patreus is far better suited to understanding the underlying issues at hand because of his phd in history and middle eastern studies.
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
I can and have said I supported the removal of Sadaam. He was a murdering tyrant that deserved what he received. Iraq on the other side has gotten the short end of the stick.
The plan that we invaded with was an extremely flawed plan, and something that is going to tie us to occupation in Iraq for many years to come. This is something that our administration and the JCoS never thought about. We would been much better off appointing a man like Patreus to begin with. General Patreus is far better suited to understanding the underlying issues at hand because of his phd in history and middle eastern studies.
Very well, I don't consider you a Saddam apologist. Your comment about US soldiers murdering innocent Iraqis rubbed me wrong. Americans murder Americans. Iraqis murder Iraqis. Americans murder Iraqis and Iraqis murder Americans. Murder is what some people with little moral restraint do. Perhaps you weren't characterizing our efforts there as muderous but that's how it seemed in that post. Perhaps I took it out of context.
-
I do not consider our troops murderers. Some members of our military have hurt our fight in Iraq with their actions is what I meant.
I should probably have worded it better.
-
Originally posted by eagl
I don't remember, but how long did Persia stay conquered?
gee, i thought you would never ask.
Greeks ruled until about 250 BC.
the arab caliphate took over about 650 AD after persia was weakened with wars with the byzantine empire.
turks ruled 1037 to 1219.
mongols ruled 1219 to 1500.
europeans finally got there in 1722.
so, you can see they have plenty of reasons to hate the USA.
-
We are American, we admit no wrong doing, to do so would be terrorist loving
-
Originally posted by Sixpence
We are American, we admit no wrong doing, to do so would be terrorist loving
That's just silly. What's sillier though is to do nothing because we have done wrong. Certainly that is what our enemies would prefer. Of course it may be too unsophisticated or anti-globalismist to use the word "enemy".
-
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Steve, I have a question for you.
Why do you think many people have a 'hate' on for the USofA?
They hate America because they hate Israel, and we are Israels powerful ally, if they can destroy us, then that gives them the idea they will be able to destroy Israel.
-
Why not just let the arabs have their oil, develop a self-sufficient energy source (like fusion, Tokamak is slow as a snail, if not sitting still), and keep US armed forces where they're needed?
Enforce illegal labor laws and guard the border properly, follow the constitution (2nd amendment etc), flush out corrupt politicians of any party starting by the worse of them via voting, and only when an actual threat has developed beyond doubt, go out to stomp it.
If any open attacks happen against the US then, steamroll the offending party without restraint... etc.
-
Originally posted by babek-
Operation Ajax destroyed a dream of many young iranians.
In an unbloody revolution the high respected prime minister Mossadegh managed to force the dictator Shah Reza Pahlevi to italian exile.
Mossadegh himself could have put himself as a new Shah on the throne. He was a member of the Kadjar family which ruled Iran as Shahs until the 20ties.
But he wanted to build a democracy.
His fault was that his politic was not acceptable for the UK and US government. So a "counter-revolution" was made and the Shah was reinstalled...
But so we have to pay the price for a stupid decision made 50 years ago.
Lets put some history in CONTEXT.
In 1951 the cold war is raging, and socialist Mossadeq takes over as PM, and in a populist move backed by the Iranian communist party, nationalizes the oil assets. Should Washington not have been worried that the "democracy" that Mossadeq was going to create wouldn't turn out like the "German Democratic Republic" aka East Germany? Would an Communist Iranian version of the Staasi been any better than the Shah's goons?
Given that after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war the arab states were pretty much all in the pro-Soviet bloc, should the US not have taken steps to curb increasing soviet influence in the middle east?
It is easy for us now to make judgements about the past - hindsight is always 20-20, but the leaders of the time didn't have the benefit of knowing what was going to happen. Postwar US foreign policy throughout the world was overwhelmingly driven by the desire to contain Soviet expansionism, and yes, we backed some really rotten guys under the "enemy of my enemy" theory.
We can talk about US foreign policy mistakes forever - one of my favorites is failing to support the 1956 hungarian uprising, but what of it? Should the Hungarians hate us now because we didn't support them then? Would it be reasonable for the hungarian people to support terrorism against the US or NATO as "payback"?
How many people have died in the last 55 years because we didn't stop Castro from turning Cuba into a gulag? I wonder if people 50 years from now won't damn us for letting Hugo Chavez turn Venezuela into one.
It's easy to damn a policy in hindsight. It's a little more difficult to formulate a policy not knowing what the future holds.
EagleDNY
$.02
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
I do not consider our troops murderers. Some members of our military have hurt our fight in Iraq with their actions is what I meant.
I should probably have worded it better.
I just love the court of public opinion..don't you? :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
Islam is a religion of peace.
You are mistaken. I have to believe you are pulling my leg. there is no way you are this ignorant.. I just don't want to believe it.
-
EagleDNY, hey, stop making sense, you will just confuse people.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke
Please explain what that quote has to do with what I said.
-
Originally posted by EagleDNY
It's easy to damn a policy in hindsight. It's a little more difficult to formulate a policy not knowing what the future holds.
Funny that it's so easy for us to damn a policy in hindsight. Most of us here can look at what happened in Iran, Cambodia, Afghanistan and where/whenever and see that certainly policies where doomed. We have a pretty good idea what blowback is and some things that cause it.
Yet there is the Whitehouse, making that same policy decisions as back then, that seem so obviously stupid now....in hindsight.
You are right though, it is damn easy to look at the violent over through of a foreign nations democratically elected government, the reinstitution of a dictator, and the training and support of his secret police, and call it morally bankrupt.
-
Redo or make a new foreign policy committee with some decent talent to help keep us from screwing up again. And the next time the CIA tries to change who's running a country, disband it, cut the funding, and fire every one of those sob's.
AMEN! :aok
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
You are mistaken. I have to believe you are pulling my leg. there is no way you are this ignorant.. I just don't want to believe it.
So, would you prefer to call Christianity or Judaism a religion of peace? Both have created much war and terrorism over history, as has Islam. Islam does not preach war. Nor does Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism for that matter. But, you, who calls me ignorant, would have us believe that the Muslims of the world want nothing but war...
I think it is you that needs to look at the definition of ignorance.....
-
Originally posted by PanzerIV
They hate America because they hate Israel, and we are Israels powerful ally, if they can destroy us, then that gives them the idea they will be able to destroy Israel.
I didn't know so many non A-rab countries 'hated' Isreal?