Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Jackal1 on September 25, 2007, 02:45:07 AM
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This is the kind of stuff that burns my behind to read in the middle of the night when Mr. Pain pays a visit. You train a soldier to kill the enemy. You send them into hell.............then they need a full time lawyer to accompany them at all times to avoid prosecution.
This is complete BS. The media needs to take a hike. Baiting has been part of warfare from the very start of warfare.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis
By PAULINE JELINEK and ROBERT BURNS, Associated Press Writers 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."
"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.
Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.
The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.
"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.
Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.
The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.
The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.
"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."
The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.
Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.
The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.
The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.
They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.
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How about boobytraps instead then. Like the Russkies used in Afganistan?
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What a load of garbage.
If it keeps us from losing just one troop from a roadside bomb, etc, I'm all for it:aok
What must we wait for to prove that an enemy is an enemy? Does someone need to be waving a gun and screaming, "Jihad!" before we can shoot them? Just exactly what is our world coming to?:furious
all those who defend the stars & stripes:aok :aok :aok
P.S.
Put my name on ine if the rounds, like we did back in the good old days
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Writing articles about it sure doesn't help. Mr. Insurgent is probably reading this article on Yahoo and is considering which bozo (or child) he plans to send to pick up anything that may be considered "bait".
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Nuke Islam.
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The enemy is so hard to identify over there and engage they have to bait them like deer. That tells me the large scale conventional army in Iraq is pointless, and at a great disadvantage when they're having to bait fleas just to get a kill or two. Then you can't be totally sure they're not killing somebody innocent checking out something laying on the ground.
But i say it's about all they got to identify these crazy insurgents, so bait if they have to. If it stops one soldier from getting killed that's wonderful. The insurgents aren't playing our game so why are we insisting on it. It's time to get a little dirty. I'd say special op's tactics, maybe like the ones used in Vietnam to kill the VC should be used, it seemed to be working. The way were doing it now however is not going to work.
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yep... SOG was very effective. I wonder why we can't just pick have 24 hr surveilance on a few roads that we use.. be it sat or whatever.
I did see a vid where some snipers were in pits and they just waited for the bomb planters. Seems you could keep an eye on the main roads pretty easy.
lazs
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I wish Lasz, but it's just too many of the the roads and they're too long. Don't think we'd have enough people for that. This whole damn war is so insidiuos and lopsided in terms of two of the most important elements. Stealth and surprise. Those two factors can usually beat numbers and technology any day. Something the army and it's leaders need to be cognizant of.
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I simply wonder why.. we can't look at the satalite photos and say..... "oh, by the way... we see a IED device being planted north of mile marker ## on road ### a few hours ago. please do not use the road until our crews remove it."
What I think is ironic is that so many here who say that an armed rebellion by millions of gun owners in this country can't work against such a modern army as ours tell me that we can't do anything against a few thousand insurgents with no real cover. It is a frigging desert! it doesn't even have many roads... how the hell would a demoralized federal force begin to monitor the roads and bridges here in the states?
What this teaches us is the lesson many of us have known since the founders... a government only rules by our allowing it to.
lazs
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Google Earth Anyone?
If I can see my car parked in front of my house, imagine what level of detail Big Brother can see! How about R/C drone aircraft. Maybe not every road, all the time, but as we need them? Or.... What about those nifty automatically triggered cameras that take a picture of your license plate when you run a red-light on Roosevelt Blvd., or when you violate the EZ-pass lane? Put them on motion sensors. So what if you get a few pics of camels, or the the occasional trooper taking a leak.
In this digital age where one can stream a Britney Spears video to a cell phone, I don't think it is out if the realm of possibility. It is high time some of this technology that we use for entertainment can be implemented here. Technology is everwhere.
I recently went on my honeymoon to Petit St. Vincent (far south in the Grenadines) I am not kidding when I say it is tiny and remote. About 2 - 3 sq. miles. I took us 2 planes and a 45 min boat ride to get there. It it only accessable by boat. Look it up. But..... all of the staff had cell phones, I was able to get service (much to my chagrin, actually), and event the charter sailboat had broadband internet access. Technology permeates everywhere, even in the desert. I'm sure that there is SOME possible way to use some of it to keep our troops safer. Heck, lets put some of our acne prone squeakers, or white collar hackers in prison to some good use. Let them hack THEIR network for a change.
Next time they try to pull up data or sensitive material from us, fedd em' a Britney video. :aok
*edit* Or, maybe, stop trying to keep Israel so "calm" Let the Iraelis have a wack at them for a change. I know that I, personally, wouldn't want to screw with them. They have 12 year olds that could kick my *** in hand to hand. I think its time to let the genie out of the bottle. It is hard to argue with a nation that believes that their land was given to them by God.
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How about dropping buttons that say
I Heart Saddam!
Then on the Back you could add:
Get ready to meet him!
:D
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Originally posted by VonMessa
Next time they try to pull up data or sensitive material from us, fedd em' a Britney video. :aok
:aok And some thought Gitmo was tough.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Nuke Islam.
nice :rolleyes:
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But where is it???????
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Originally posted by lazs2
What I think is ironic is that so many here who say that an armed rebellion by millions of gun owners in this country can't work against such a modern army as ours tell me that we can't do anything against a few thousand insurgents with no real cover. It is a frigging desert! it doesn't even have many roads... how the hell would a demoralized federal force begin to monitor the roads and bridges here in the states?
What this teaches us is the lesson many of us have known since the founders... a government only rules by our allowing it to.
lazs
They do have cover Lasz. Everyday all day, untill they decide to expose themselves by a terrorist action. Believe me, an insurgent today, is the same guy that walked by an American soldier in normal streetclothes waved and acted friendly, then two minutes later picks up an AK-47 and sprays bullets at those same soldiers standing at that same checkpoint. Or the same guys that go and hide a bomb under a road, then act friendly and points and waves and tell soldiers to go down that road, after they have asked for directions. That's all they have over there, Lasz, is cover. We however stick out like a sore thumb. So, you won't notice them untill you catch them in the act. Untill then it's very hard for our soldiers to tell.
Ahkbar the insurgent looks like everybody else in a land of everybody else. The insurgents live on this ideal, they act on this ideal, they kill Americans everyday on this ideal, their anonymity. And a satelite looking down from space won't be able to tell you. It may identify a roadside bomb, but it's harder to identify a needle in a stack of needles when you don't know which one your looking for.
So it doesn't matter if they're in the desert,Lasz. When everyone over there is in the desert, including us, but they know who we are. It's much harder for the American soldier however, when his night vision goggles and his rifle don't have a setting on it that says "Terrorist". And the terrorist all look the same. It's just plain insidious.
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Originally posted by VonMessa
Google Earth Anyone?
If I can see my car parked in front of my house, imagine what level of detail Big Brother can see! How about R/C drone aircraft. Maybe not every road, all the time, but as we need them? Or.... What about those nifty automatically triggered cameras that take a picture of your license plate when you run a red-light on Roosevelt Blvd., or when you violate the EZ-pass lane? Put them on motion sensors. So what if you get a few pics of camels, or the the occasional trooper taking a leak.
In this digital age where one can stream a Britney Spears video to a cell phone, I don't think it is out if the realm of possibility. It is high time some of this technology that we use for entertainment can be implemented here. Technology is everwhere.
I recently went on my honeymoon to Petit St. Vincent (far south in the Grenadines) I am not kidding when I say it is tiny and remote. About 2 - 3 sq. miles. I took us 2 planes and a 45 min boat ride to get there. It it only accessable by boat. Look it up. But..... all of the staff had cell phones, I was able to get service (much to my chagrin, actually), and event the charter sailboat had broadband internet access. Technology permeates everywhere, even in the desert. I'm sure that there is SOME possible way to use some of it to keep our troops safer. Heck, lets put some of our acne prone squeakers, or white collar hackers in prison to some good use. Let them hack THEIR network for a change.
Next time they try to pull up data or sensitive material from us, fedd em' a Britney video. :aok
*edit* Or, maybe, stop trying to keep Israel so "calm" Let the Iraelis have a wack at them for a change. I know that I, personally, wouldn't want to screw with them. They have 12 year olds that could kick my *** in hand to hand. I think its time to let the genie out of the bottle. It is hard to argue with a nation that believes that their land was given to them by God.
Von Messa ever heard of this mother, from the United States who is using the internet from her own home posing as a terrorist, and asking for trade in weapons and other materials and in the process getting terrorist, pictures, locations, and stone cold info. She then passes it on to i think it is the Fbi, Homeland security, and whatever government entities that will listen to her.
Guess what, she's not barking up the wrong tree. As i believe they have gotten a good number of solid leads, and information that i believe has led to some arrests. It's a massive terrorist sting operation. Now imagine what would happen if we did that using America's many varied resources.
While Bush and every conservative republican war monger in America is busy spraying piss into the wind in Iraq only to have it blow back in their face. This womans doing it the smart way, she's not screwing around with that other crap. She's going straight to where Johhny terrorist hides and eliminating him.
Imagine that on a large scale, might be more accurate than what were doing now. The terrorist opens his door hoping to get his brand new C4 explosive materials only to find a bunch of angry Special Ops folks at his door.
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what makes you think that is not being done already? Because the New Joke Times hasn't announced it to the enemy?
NYT, "hey al qaeda. the US govt is listening to your cell phones, so you better stop using them."
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ledpig... No.. they really don't have cover.. when they are digging a hole in the side of a road and lugging a 105 howitzer shell or IED.
They also do not look like everyone else to the residents. In vietnam we had the same problem but once the residents feel protected enough by their own police or US forces... they rat out the bad guys...
Threatening to pull out every few weeks and crying that America wants to give up is not gonna instill that kind of faith in the good people who can't stand the insurgents in any case.
lazs
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Originally posted by john9001
what makes you think that is not being done already? Because the New Joke Times hasn't announced it to the enemy?
NYT, "hey al qaeda. the US govt is listening to your cell phones, so you better stop using them."
Through personal messages i've recieved to me from other members explaining to me your mental situation. You are no longer worth the mental energy to explain things too. For you to ask me that question with a straight face shows me you are clearly an idiot. Bye Bye...
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Originally posted by lazs2
ledpig... No.. they really don't have cover.. when they are digging a hole in the side of a road and lugging a 105 howitzer shell or IED.
They also do not look like everyone else to the residents. In vietnam we had the same problem but once the residents feel protected enough by their own police or US forces... they rat out the bad guys...
Threatening to pull out every few weeks and crying that America wants to give up is not gonna instill that kind of faith in the good people who can't stand the insurgents in any case.
lazs
Lasz, they are only lugging those explosives for a very small amount of time compared to the rest of the 23 some odd hours they could be doing something else. You might as well lay in wait trying to get a glimpse of "Bigfoot". After that nobody knows who they are.
And yes Lasz i'm sure the residents know who they are, but they won't say. And if we don't know who they are Lasz then it's pointless.
And you are right Lasz once the residents feel protected enough they will tell who they are, there are already some brave ones doing that. But untill we are gone Lasz and we stop attracting insurgents to the area lke flies on *****, i don't see a mass information sharing exchange going on anytime soon.
And yes Lasz you are very right about the last point, which is why i say we stay. But unfortunately when we leave (mark my words) "The place falls to hell".
(Oh Lord why do i bother???)
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ledpig.. I am afraid that I am getting mixed messages from you... you seem to be saying that we are attracting the insurgents and they will be attracted so long as we are there but then finish by saying that... as soon as we leave.. the place will go to hell..
Both of your statements have elements of truth... It is a fact that we are attracting the most zealous and their resources to iraq... that tho.. is a good thing.. they are willing to die.. we are willing to kill them.
The last is true too... if we just cut and run it will go to hell... we need to continue to build up their security.. they are graduating 1,000 officers a month now... things are improving... as sick as we are of the insurgents blowing up civilians... think how sick the civilians must be of it.. how much they must hate em. the pressure to do something must be immense.
How to otherwise explain the bravery of so many of the iraqi security guys... the risks they are taking...
I hope we stay long enough to see it all pay off.
oh.. the explosives thing.. no matter how well you blend... no matter how scared the populace is to turning you in... you still have to dig a hole in the side of the road... I just wish we could study the sat photos and, if not catch and kill, at least give some traffic advisories.
lazs
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
Through personal messages i've recieved to me from other members explaining to me your mental situation. You are no longer worth the mental energy to explain things too. For you to ask me that question with a straight face shows me you are clearly an idiot. Bye Bye...
it looks like all you are capable of is making personal attacks.
have a nice day. :D
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If they shot a curious woman or a curious kid they should be prosecuted and locked up.:aok
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i would not worry about shooting women and kids, now that the reporters have reported the tactics the troops can't use it anymore.
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Originally posted by john9001
i would not worry about shooting women and kids
This says alot!
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what i meant rockhead was that the troops would not be shooting anyone now that the tactics have been exposed by the Pulitzer prize wannabee reporters.
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But, if you REALLY need rules, this isn't something to worry about. Don't pick up weapons or weapons materials in a combat zone. You might get your brains blown out.
This did remind me of a storry I read about in Iraq. Some squad had just wasted a platoon of the enemy. Some cars along the highway pulled up and stopped. Obviously, the dead men's guns were laying around.
The guy writing the story said, "I said to myself, 'please don't pick up the weapons. I don't want to have to kill you.' " It's clear that there is some rule of engagement about anyone picking up weapons needing killed.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
This says alot!
Says it all
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quote:Originally posted by john9001
i would not worry about shooting women and kids
Originally posted by SkyRock
This says alot!
Not to condone this tactic, but being completely serious from someone who has been there, does anyone see how early their own kids learn to play PS2, or any other video games? That's how early some of these children over there are given their indoctrination into terrorism. They bear children over here which makes them automatic citizens (bearing all of the appropriate documentation), then they are spirited away to be trained in terrorist camps until age of maturity. At that point they come back to US soil (again, with all paperwork confirming status as a U.S. citizen) and begin their "work". All BS aside and every opinion of this aside, man, woman, or child, if you pick up a weapon or anything that can be used as a weapon you have just made yourself a target, and I personally WILL draw a bead on your carcass. Women and children are NOT above suspicion when it comes to this. Ask any Iraq or Vietnam vet for their opinion.
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Yea the problem is telling if those women and children are going to do mortal harm and not just being curious. Since everyone who looks middle eastern in appearance is not a terrorist. You don't think that typically every 10 year old over there is going to wield a gun at Americans do you. They might just be acting as kids and going, oooh a gun i want to touch. That being said you gotta be safe anyway as we know they'll use anyone or anything to kills us.
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Looks like you are trying to say "They all look alike" Led. :)
stop attracting insurgents to the area lke flies on *****
That`s the idea Skippy and it is working like a charm.
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The thing here is.............the media needs to be kept at bay on operations, tactics and such. Also the guys in the field does not need to have to worry if any operations, tactics, etc. are legal or not. They have a job to do in a dangerous situation.
In the end if anyone is to be held accountable, it should be the superior ranks....the ones in charge.
It`s war. Death isn`t new to war.
It`s also not instant and not for your viewing pleasure while having a TV dinner in front of the tube.
Let them do their job.
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
Yea the problem is telling if those women and children are going to do mortal harm and not just being curious. Since everyone who looks middle eastern in appearance is not a terrorist. You don't think that typically every 10 year old over there is going to wield a gun at Americans do you. They might just be acting as kids and going, oooh a gun i want to touch. That being said you gotta be safe anyway as we know they'll use anyone or anything to kills us.
Just to make sure my stance is not mis-understood, I have a wife and two children so I am not totally cold-hearted. Furthurmore, I am not playing the "they all look alike card', but.......
ANYONE not wearing a U.S. or Coalition uniform that is wielding, carrying, or otherwise touching a weapon regardless if it is pointed at me or not wil IMMEDIATELY GET MY FULL ATTENTION! To explain what this means exactly for some who may not know: My weapon will be switched from "safe" to "fire", and I will be aiming center mass, until I tulips the threat level.
As far as the "curious" part plays out, there really shouldn't be such a thing "over there". These women and children have all grown up with violence around them, AND weapons are almost as common in their lives as the sand under their feet. Also, no "curious" excuse for seeing "American" weapons either. They have seen plenty, because we sold them enough of them to fight Iran.
These folks know how to conduct themselves. Stay indoors at night, leave the weapons alone, stay out of the way of troops while they are performing their duty. Middle-Easterners are not stupid barbarians or animals (heck mathematics and coffee came from there) All have been warned, and most are good, law-abiding citizens, and try not to get in the way. Any behavior outside the norm will be considered suspicious.