Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CptTrips on September 29, 2007, 07:07:41 PM
-
( And no Serenity jokes PLEASE!)
Ohhh what a day so far. :D
I am constantly ordering expensive equipment over the net for my various hobbies (i.e. computers, camera, atronomical supplies). I work for a living so the packages end up having to get left at the apartment office.
So I am constantly having to go into the office in the mornings, late evenings or weekend to pick them up. Overall it works convieniently.
Fri when I get home I see the UPS sticker on my door. Cool new astronomical camera I ordered and have been waiting for. Perfect timing as I can take it out to my land this weekend and give it a try.
So I sleep late enough Sat morning so that the Apt office has time to open up. I get up, grab a quick shower and shave, start the coffee brewing, and run down to the office to quickly pick up my package.
Now you got to understand some stuff about my apartments. Back in early 2000 when I first moved there, they were pretty nice. Near major arteries and the DFW airport, they were probably 50% Airline employees (including stewardess'). After 9/11 Things started going downhill fast. All the Airline people moved out, they started lowering rent, maintainence went undone, etc.... Now there are kinda creepy people living here. Kinda thuggy, and the management team seems to rotate out every 6 months. There is this one loser chick in particular. She literally has gang looking tattos running up both arms from the knuckles to her elbows. She is sullen, and borderline rude every time I have to deal with her. So I wince we I see its her I have to deal with this morning. But whatever.
So I come into the office with UPS slip in hand and she's in the back office on the phone. No problem. I wait. I decide to walk across the hall and poke my head in so she knows I'm there. I smile and wave my UPS slip. She glares back "I WILL BE WITH YOU IN A MOMENT!". I count to 5.. "I'm just letting you know I'm here in case you didn't hear me come in." I step back into the outer office and wait. And wait. I can tell from the content and tone of the call it certainly isn't a customer. Its a girlfriend, boyfriend, or a coworker. Certainly no one she couldn't put on hold for a second. I'm starting to get annoyed.
So I wait. Finally she gets off the phone. And ... no sooner, the phone rings again and she picks it back up. I blink a couple of times. I think surely she is about to tell them to hold for second, but I stand incredulous as she goes on at least another 5 minutes. I popback in the doorway and give her a WTF look. And she is on a CELL PHONE! I mean she could just walk over with the cell phone and still get my package for me. She glares at me again "SIR I TOLD YOU YOU JUST GONNA HAVE TO WAIT!" She literally goes back to her conversation while staring at me.
The corner of my left eye twitches almost imperceptively.
I haven't had my coffee yet this morning. Maybe my judgement is off, but I'm getting pissed off enough now that I'm starting to think this is going to be trouble. I'm trying to keep my cool but I'm getting that wierd ice water feeling down the middle of my back and my hands feel like they are giving off steam as they begin to tremble. I stand there like a dope for another 5 minute and I'm just about to say phookit and walk of to the closet and pick up my own package and leave the slip.
She finally gets off the phone walk back to the outer office...just slow enough so she can show me she can't be rushed. She sighs..."YES?"
I take a slow steady breath and hand her my UPS slip "I have a package I need to pick up".
She looks at it like I handed her a dead rodent. Then squares off on me and says "Well, I'll need to see your drivers license."
I blink again. "What?" I'm standing there in gym shorts a t-shirt and flip-flops. She knows I don't have my drivers license. She knows very well.
You have to understand I've been living at these apartments far 10 years come October. If you've never enoyed Apt living, apartment years are like dog years. Ten years is a freakin eternity to have lived a single place. I have picked up packages from this particular delicate flower at least half a dozen times. She knows exactly who I am. I have never been forced to go get my drivers license. The apartment manager herself got me a package herself not two days before and didn't force me to provide a drivers license. She doesn't need to see my drivers license, she needs to show I can't rush her off her phone calls with her girlfriends.
I explain all this to her in no uncertain terms and possibly quite colorful language, all the while taking the time to admire her fine home-made tattoos.
So now its game time! She starts shrieking at me that she doesn't have to give me my package unless I can show her my drivers license, and I'm being rude
(yes, I'm being rude...get that part?)
And I need to get off this property becasue she doesn't have to put up with someone being rude to her blah blah blah blah blah.
I just turned around and started for the door. Meanwhile muttering over my shoulder that I couldn't believe she made me stand there and wait 25 minutes just to pull this chickensh!ite crap blah blah blah blah.
Yeah, I probably slammed the door on my way out.
I go back to my apartment. I go up stairs. I find my wallet. I get my drivers license. I go back to the office. I lay the drivers license and the UPS slip on the desk in front of her as she sat there glaring at me, arms crossed.
"Here is my drivers license. Here is my UPS slip. I want...my package.....please."
"NO."
" What?" The sound of that word was strange coming out of my mouth. It didn't even sound like me. At this point it was like I was detached, watching all this from a far away place, and the sound of that word came echoing down to me from somewhere down a long dark coridor. It was pronounced slow and careful, and dripped with portent that should have scared the crap out of her if she had half a brain.
She leans forward, glaring, arms still crossed: "I'm not going to give you your package. You were rude to me. You were mean to me. You slammed that door on your way out. I'm not going to put up with that. I'm not going to give you your package. I want you to leave this office now or I'm calling the cops!"
I pickup my drivers license and UPS slip. "Here is my drivers license. Here is my UPS slip. I want you to get up off your fat prettythang, go over to that Frekin
closet, and give me my freakin property BEOTCH!"
"Alright I told you to get out of this office so I'm calling 911!!!!!!"
At this point, without morning coffee, with all my cool and aplum blown, I quickly try and review my available options:
Option A: I could grab her by the throat with one hand, pull the receiver away with the other and start bashing her in the head. I could quickly work my way through the epidermal layer, cranium, frontal lobe, brain stem...once I had cleared a path to the esophogus, I could reach down, find her still beating heart, rip it out, lay it on the day planner on the desk and decorate it with the yellow daisy sitting in the glass vase by the phone. While I wistfully considered that for a split second, while being justified, and probably satisfying, it would not ultimately be wise.
Option B: I could simply walk past her and get my package out of the closet. I know right where it would be. The same place all my packages have been for the last 10 years. How could I possibly be in the wrong simply to get my own property. But I know...I know as sure as grass is green, she would do something stupid like lay a hand on me to stop me. And within seconds we would be back at option A.
Option C: I could simply sit down and tell her to go ahead and call the cops. I could wait until they arrive and have her explain again why she will not hand over my lawful property as I sit there with photo id and UPS slip. (I should have done this but I was so pissed at this point I didn't think of it. I also think if I had stayed there any longer things would just have gotten further out of control.)
Option D: I could simply leave. I could wait until I could contact the manager and hopefully get the rightful resolution.
So I gritted my teeth and chose option D. I was ordered to leave the premisis so I did. It was the only way I could be sure that I was staying in the letter of the law so that all the onous was on her. I did explain to her on the way out that this was not over, only begining and I would do everything I humanly could to make sure the manager of that office terminates her with cause. Its certainly not as ego satisfying as option A but I guess I'm getting overly cautious in my old age.
I had been back at my apartment no more than 5 minutes when the cops arrived.....
-
and?
-
I'm certainly no lawyer but here goes. I'm sure you expalined to the cops what happened. Did they arrest you? If they did you might be able to sue. If not, I'm thinking your only recourse is to mail a complaint to the property owner and if you don't get satisfaction, move.
-
:eek: you really wanted that package
-
Too long to read.
-
The total injustice of this whole story po's me to the point of making my skin crawl.
Injustice to you, AKWabbit.
I can't say what I would have done and I'm known for being easy going.
Mark
-
I would have done the same as you..left.
Then i would go to the local meat store and buy the largest fish and mail it to yourself UPS.Make sure you cut a few small holes so flies can get in and the stench can get out.
Then don't pick it up for 10 days.
Seriously though,she needs a tatoo of a brain on the front of her head.
-
If this girl is from the building management,
Just find out what company owns this apartment complex and call there main office, Normally they are very nice and like to know when issues like this happen in a building they manage. unless of course this is a real slum, then you are sol.
But i would not even take it up with the local building management, Unless she is really hated they wont do anything.
-
Let me guess. You live at Westdale Hell...err Hills. The first and last place I ever rented an apartment.
I'd tell the cops what happened and go with them to retrieve my package. I'd also expect to find a broken camera when you open the box. Definitely follow up with management and corporate.
-
I would've just gone to the closet and gotten my package the instant I realized she'd put me off for a personal call. I would have simply ignored anything she had to say, and welcomed any fallout she sent my way (read: opportunity to get her in trouble). Arguing with her validated her. Accepting her BS validated her. No way I'm gonna do either in those circumstances.
-
I'd like to know how the story ended.
-
C
-
Originally posted by culero
I would've just gone to the closet and gotten my package the instant I realized she'd put me off for a personal call. I would have simply ignored anything she had to say, and welcomed any fallout she sent my way (read: opportunity to get her in trouble). Arguing with her validated her. Accepting her BS validated her. No way I'm gonna do either in those circumstances.
that's probably what i would do.
-
Breathe Wab, innnn, ouuuut, relax. Don't let this obnoxious person steal your inner peace. You might even go out of your way to be nice to her. Apologize to her. What does it cost you?
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Breathe Wab, innnn, ouuuut, relax. Don't let this obnoxious person steal your inner peace. You might even go out of your way to be nice to her. Apologize to her. What does it cost you?
**** that. Fight fire with fire.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Breathe Wab, innnn, ouuuut, relax. Don't let this obnoxious person steal your inner peace. You might even go out of your way to be nice to her. Apologize to her. What does it cost you?
Holy tree hugging crap. No way in hell would that happen.
-
No one is saying she wasn't an obnoxious twit. A little humbleness and kindess goes a long ways and it never hurts either party is all I'm sayin'.
-
Sorry, I had to go get some beer now that I'm calm enough to drive. And I had to do a little googling.
So I open the door and there are two very large officers standing there, cautious and watchful. They kept their hands resting on their very large pistols with a kind of very studied casualness.
So I invite them in. They come in slowly and carefully.
They start asking some questions, I start answering. The whole time they are just watching me. I'm being polite, friendly, and as calm as I can but I can tell they can still see I'm tweaked to the max and still pumping with adrenelin. Basically I'm still so pissed I can harldy see straight but I'm trying hard not to let it show.
They want my drivers license and I say its in the bedroom and I start to turn around and go get it but kinda feel that whole room tense up. (OK I'm not thinking straight. No coffee, too much excitement for early morning...) I stop and turn around slowly and smile "uhh I mean its in my bedroom. You want me to go get it?"
The older cop just nods stoned face, not saying a word. I go back to my bedroom but I don't think he followed me which seems really wierd now. I wish he would have followed me so he could watch me and feel more comfortable. I REALLY wanted the guys to feel comfortable.
When I come back, the older cop had positioned himself at the front of the hallway leading to the bedroom (maybe he was watching me down the hall). The other cop had moved from by the door, across the room to the other corner where he could watch the second bedroom and the older cop at the from of the hall.
That kinda creeped me out when I came back and everyone had drastically changed position across the room.
So I hand over my id and UPS slip and he tells me to continue the story. So I lay it all out. I'm doing voices, I throw in some mime, shadow puppets... the works. I'm going thru the story and slowly I can feel the older cop relaxing. He starts to chuckle as I tell my tale. Even the muscle cop, who took up high cover position, relaxed and started walking around the room looking as my stuff (not staring at me which made me feel better). Every once in a while the older cop would laugh and tell me to slow down so he could write it all and the muscle cop would ask me a question about an antique thing or one of my oil paintings while he was catching up.
Finally the older cop just put away his note book and said: "Look, I wasn't there. I can't say you were in the right, I can't say she was in the right. I can say we were sent here to investigate a complaint of public disturbance against you, but I don't see anything here that justifies that. This is a civil
matter that you need to take up with your apartment management Moday. Don't go back to the office this weekend. Straighten it out next week when the manager is there. But you can tell them that we came here and talked to you and determined there was no misconduct on your part. If they want to see our report they can. Other than that we don't need to take up any more of your time. Just calm down, because I can see you are excited, be an adult and straighten it out next week with the management."
So I'm like ....fine, great. Can you at least go with me down there with my drivers license and UPS slip so I can get my freakin $1,000 camera from Juanita the gang bangress??? I don't understand why I am being denied my own lawful property.
"No no no. We can't get involved in that. You go back down there and we are going to have a problem with you. Thats a civil matter and we can't get involved."
I just stand there dumbfounded as the cops walk away. I have been treated rudely, unprofessionally, and denied access to my own lawful private property, and the cops can't get involved!
Sooooooo thats it. I'm sorry, I know you were expecting a big finale. Wab barrackaded in his apartment with his Springfield 45, shooting through the window at the cop cars and those big flood lights shinning into my apartment and me yelling through the broken glass: "YOU"LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE YOU DIRTY YELLOW RATS!!!!!"
But thats how my day ended, not with a bang but with a whimper.
I have several questions though. This is a pretty varied community with different educations and experiences.
I would like to believe I could reason with the management. But I'm not holding my breath. Its been my experience that most apartment people are like carnie freaks. They tend to close ranks and protect their own and see the tenants as inconvieniences.
I assume that there isn't any reasonable chance they can terminate my lease because of a run in with the staff? I plan to get out of this *****e hole as fast as possible but I don't want to have to be fighting an eviction notice to make it difficult for me to move in somewhere else. I've never been late on a rent or utils check the 10 years I've been here. I assume since the cops found no basis for the complaint, they would have no grounds. Am I wrong? Do I have any recourse against unfair retaliation?
Also, I'm still pissed I was denied my property. Infuriated actually. It just seems illegal to me. Irregardless of any argument or hard feelings, once I have presented my drivers license and UPS slip I cannnot see how they had any right to deny me my property! Now looking it up, I guess it wouldn't be considered theft. I doubt anyone believes she has the intention to permanently keep my property. But there is something called Criminal Conversion of Private Property.
Wiki:
Criminal conversion, in criminal law, is usually defined as the crime of exerting unauthorised use or control of someone else's property. It differs from theft in that it does not include the element of intending to deprive the owner of the possession of that property. As such, it is a lesser included offense of the crime of theft.
An example might be tapping someone's wireless LAN or public utility line (which could also amount to theft of services). Another example might be taking a "joy ride" in a car, never intending to keep it from the owner. Some places have defined such conduct as a specific type of theft, perhaps with a modified penalty.
Note that the "unauthorized" use may begin after a period of authorized use, where, for example, a person rents a car then keeps it for an extra week without permission from the rental company. Another common example occurs when a person fails to report finding lost goods (including animals), intending only to keep them until someone asks for their return. When the intent becomes one of keeping them, it's a theft.
Do I have a leg to stand on? She unlawfully denied me possession of my lawful private property against my permission. Even if it was for a couple of days it doesn't matter. (Like the joy-rider example.)
The apartment management are going to blow me off I suspect, possible even try and harrass and evict me. If I had a real legal club to wield I'd feel much better. If I had an actual criminal complaint to file and use as a bargining chip to either press of drop I would feel in a better position. I don't know why the cops blew me off. Maybe it was too subtle a legal point for them, maybe they just had bigger fish to fry.
Am I completely off base?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Regards,
Wab
-
You're not off base Wabbit. Very normal reaction imo. You might call the office and talk to someone else tomorrow. Perhaps then you can arrange to pick up your camera.
-
I'm not saying that this is the best idea, but I'd file a complaint against her right away. I think this is theft. Don't let her make all the moves and put you on the defense only. Call the police when those two goons are off their shift. Get someone with a better attitude; they showed up on her side…
Also, don't you have any kind of a landlord you can call? I’d work at getting her fired. I’d also threaten leaving; you are more valuable than she is. They won’t evict you, good tenants are hard to find.
-
Okay now that I know how it ended. This is my opinion based on some of the dealings I've had and my readings of the Texas Civil Code.
Number one. It's your word against hers about what went in on the office unless they have video evidence to support her side of the story. Subsequently if you behaved in a threatening manner towards her and it's caught on tape they have valid reason for evicting you. Not saying it's right just saying it's possible. If the story is 100% the way you presented it then you should be okay.
I would see if someone else is working tomorrow and retrieve your property first and foremost and, no matter what, be as nice as the pope on xanax no matter what happens. In fact I'd watch the office and make sure that there are other people there to witness how nice and harmless you are.
The agent, as I understand it, is the owners representative of the company and the owners or agents thereof. Subsequently your beef is with them not her. Find out who owns the complex and take your complaint directly to them. Don't talk to the manager etc.. go straight to the top with it because the office staff will rally wagons around her even if they hate her guts.
Remind the owners in writing how long you've lived there, the fact that you've paid your rent on time, and have never been a problem, and from this day forward whenever you deal with the office twits be very nice, smile, and make them feel like you like them.
Then move to Arlington where I've got a fellow AH'r close enough to go get a beer with.
ORRRRRRRRR
You could just tell me the complex you live in and She Devil and I can come in the next day she's working alone and we can run her all over the complex for ****s and giggles.
All we need is a victim and an audience ;)
In fact... PM me... her brother gets home from the Sandbox in October and the three of us together are REALLY something to behold when we have someone to abuse :D
-
Did you think to call UPS and tell them they refused to give you your package? I think they might have a problem with that.
I still think she used your package for field goal practice after you left.
-
Originally posted by rpm
Did you think to call UPS and tell them they refused to give you your package? I think they might have a problem with that.
I still think she used your package for field goal practice after you left.
That's a really good idea!
-
Well....... WOW.....
Biatch in spades..
You did the right thing by choosing option "d".
Being ordered from the property by someone with the lawful authority to do so and failing to leave could have left you in a criminal situation. In Pa that would be Defiant Trespass (misdemeanor 3 I believe).
Even though I am on your side in this 1000% unfortunately that is the case here.
As far as denying you acess to your own property I honestly do not know if you have a criminal case against the clerk from He77 or not.
I would take this up with the management, check your lease and see if you have reason to terminate your lease based upon what you find.
I would let management know this is what you are preparing to do. Kind of put them on notice you may be leaving over his incident.
As far as the officers go IMO they did what was right. This is a civil issue not criminal in nature and therefore they were not getting involved. PERIOD. Remember they do not know you from adam and you are probably right they could see that you were agitated upon their initial contact with you. They used sound tactics to assure they were not in danger until such time as they realized what this incident actually was. ( I will say with the exception of allowing you to go into another room out of their sight... you never know).
If you have a friend who is an attorney maybe you could get him to fire off a letter to the management indicating should such an incident ever take place again you will pursue all the legal options available to you to seek redress for any damages you may have suffered, or for any private property rights they may have violated.
All in all I will say even though you and I both would have liked to have grabbed the lil wench by her throat and squeezed until her eyes buldged out and she turned 5 differing shades of blue, you made the right choice.
And hey if you want to move and cant wait what is the difference between you or them termininating your lease either way your out :aok.
<<>>
-
First off, you were not arrested so there is no criminal action going against you.
Secondly your only real option is to deal with the upper management of the apt. complex. You need to let them know that your property is being held by a belligerent employee. Do not talk to the one you had a problem with again if you can help it.
If you try to file a complaint for disorderly conduct against her it won't fly as you have nothing to back it up with. It's a you said, she said and no one to prove it one way or the other. You have, as the Officer told you, a civil matter, not a criminal one. They can't help you there, they might want to but they can't get involved in a civil dispute.
You already have proof that UPS delivered. They delivered the item so they will NOT get involved. There is no reason for them to do so as they completed the delivery and it was accepted at the property. There isn't anything they can do anyhow.
Next time you need something sent UPS, have it delivered to the main UPS terminal and then you go pick it up in person. Do not let the apt. folks get involved in it.
If the management does not help you by giving you the package then your option is to file a suit against them for it. Again you have proof of delivery but not proof of undamaged delivery.
Lastly, find a better place to live. You are not going to win any fights with employees by getting in their face. If you try to do that you better have something to back it up with witnesses or video or at the very least a tape recording of the conversation. Then plan on having your apt. and vehicle vandalized. This is not a fight you want to get into as you are way too vulnerable dealing with a gang banger working for the apt. management.
-
Next time you get a delivery, pick it up when Miss Tatoo is there. Hopefully she'll be on the phone and the same thing happens.
This time however, you will have recorded the whole thing with the little tape recorder you have in your pocket.
-
Originally posted by sgt203
Well....... WOW.....
Biatch in spades..
You did the right thing by choosing option "d".
Being ordered from the property by someone with the lawful authority to do so and failing to leave could have left you in a criminal situation. In Pa that would be Defiant Trespass (misdemeanor 3 I believe).
Even though I am on your side in this 1000% unfortunately that is the case here.
As far as denying you acess to your own property I honestly do not know if you have a criminal case against the clerk from He77 or not.
I would take this up with the management, check your lease and see if you have reason to terminate your lease based upon what you find.
I would let management know this is what you are preparing to do. Kind of put them on notice you may be leaving over his incident.
As far as the officers go IMO they did what was right. This is a civil issue not criminal in nature and therefore they were not getting involved. PERIOD. Remember they do not know you from adam and you are probably right they could see that you were agitated upon their initial contact with you. They used sound tactics to assure they were not in danger until such time as they realized what this incident actually was. ( I will say with the exception of allowing you to go into another room out of their sight... you never know).
If you have a friend who is an attorney maybe you could get him to fire off a letter to the management indicating should such an incident ever take place again you will pursue all the legal options available to you to seek redress for any damages you may have suffered, or for any private property rights they may have violated.
All in all I will say even though you and I both would have liked to have grabbed the lil wench by her throat and squeezed until her eyes buldged out and she turned 5 differing shades of blue, you made the right choice.
And hey if you want to move and cant wait what is the difference between you or them termininating your lease either way your out :aok.
<<>>
I do believe we have a budding and local attorney that visits these boards on a regular basis. :D
-
i would have went with option a and got my package, good story though, you put alot of detail into it, you should write book! :aok
-
I'd call a lawyer. She's illegally holding your property. If you can't get it after a second attempt, call the cops and report the property as stolen, and you can even positively ID the person who stole it.
-
Hopefully you won't have to deal with her again. If you do, don't go alone. You need to retrieve your property asap and check for damage.
Write a letter to the appropriate party, sleep on it a day or two and send it registered mail. Keep copies of all correspondence in a file. From now on whenever you talk with management, write down who you spoke with and the time and date. You have renter's rights if they try to evict you over this. Good luck.
Les
-
Originally posted by Regular
Too long to read.
That will be the majority opinion when the Supreme Court reviews the case in 2009. (Justices Stevens and Souter dissenting writing in thier opinion, "It wasn't all that long")
-
Originally posted by rpm
Let me guess. You live at Westdale Hell...err Hills. The first and last place I ever rented an apartment.
I'd tell the cops what happened and go with them to retrieve my package. I'd also expect to find a broken camera when you open the box. Definitely follow up with management and corporate.
Centreport Landing Apartments. It was nice when I first moved there. Its become a gang-banger he!!.
Wab
-
Originally posted by fuzeman
Next time you get a delivery, pick it up when Miss Tatoo is there. Hopefully she'll be on the phone and the same thing happens.
This time however, you will have recorded the whole thing with the little tape recorder you have in your pocket.
Actually, this would accomplish nothing. Recordings of someone without their permission or a warrant cannot be submitted as evidence. You could catch her admitting to the assassination of every single dead president, however it would mean nothing if it was just in your pocket without her knowledge.
-
Originally posted by eskimo2
I'm not saying that this is the best idea, but I'd file a complaint against her right away. I think this is theft. Don't let her make all the moves and put you on the defense only. Call the police when those two goons are off their shift. Get someone with a better attitude; they showed up on her side…
Also, don't you have any kind of a landlord you can call? I’d work at getting her fired. I’d also threaten leaving; you are more valuable than she is. They won’t evict you, good tenants are hard to find.
Thanks for the support Eskimo. Honestly I don't fault the cops. They had no idea of the situation they were walking into. And I was pretty wound up. Once the facts were out they relaxed and were cool.
My only beef is they would not help me go get my stuff, but I guess they have their boundaries.
Wab
-
however it can be admissible during a deposition. So long as one party is of legal age during the conversation it can be brought up at that time. While it's not admissible in a court of law the deposition becomes a part of the official documentation.
I got custody of my kid based on taped conversations between my ex wife and I. Granted I told her that I was taping the conversations she was dumb enough to rise to the bait that I laid out for her.
It is NOT illegal to tape conversations as part of the evidence gathering process. Take a look at videos from police cars. Do they always tell the perp that they're being recorded?
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, this would accomplish nothing. Recordings of someone without their permission or a warrant cannot be submitted as evidence.
A foundation for authentication of sound recordings was established in the federal courts in United States v. McKeever, and upheld in cases such as United States v. McMillan. In McMillan the court ruled that where a government agent testified that he heard the voice .of an informant at all times when he was making a recording of a telephone conversation, that this part of the conversation was accurate, and that immediately after the telephone calls were completed, a tape was replayed by the agent in the informant's presence to verify that the conversation had in fact been recorded and that the instruments were operating correctly, it was sufficiently established that the recordings were true and accurate as a basis for their admission in evidence.
Voluntary elicitation of the recorded conversation:as long as one participant in the conversation is aware that he is being recorded, the tape fulfills this final requirement. This means that a defendant's Fourth Amendment rights are not violated when the conversation is electronically monitored by a government agent with consent of the government informant in the investigation.
And that's when the government is doing it. A private citizen can submit recordings to law enforcement and the rules are less stringent since the government was not involved in the act of recording.
-
Wow that sucks All the Leasing Office Women I deal with during my day are for the 97% professional, even in in propertys with a few hundred units they know their residents Apt by just their last name.
You can also try contacting UPS once she signs for the box she is responsible for it so if it damaged then the Apt managment is responsible then for loss or damage.I dont really know what they do in this situation though you might want to contact them though. as I said all the ones I deal with are professional and the place that isnt professional main sin is too long of lunches and this has not happened to me before.
-
Honestly, based on the expense of lawyers and all....I'd chill out, talk to the building management and see what plays out there. If they give you a ton of crap, its time to go apartment hunting.
Also, in regards to UPS...if the Center is close to where you live, you can request the package be "Held for Pickup" at the center. This saves you all the hassles of dealing with the gang-banger babe/management.
Or, get a Mailboxes Etc/UPS Store mailbox, where they can sign for your parcels. And they are open Saturday.
-
Move.
-
Have UPS deliver some fish guts and errr...forget to pick it up.:D
-
Or atleast until you get your other package
-
You may have a Trespass to Chattel claim against her. She denied you access to property that was yours--plain and simple.
Unfortunately, in this particular tort, if you want compensation you generally have to prove damage. If you take her fat ugly neck-wagging bellybutton to court you will have to explain to the judge how your inability to access your camera cost you money, or prevented you from making money. That's for your compensatory claim. A punitive claim is another matter, and does not require a proof of actual damage. Duress, anguish, discrimination, all that good stuff comes into play there.
However, there is another way to approach this. She is an employee acting within the scope of her duties as an employee. The doctrine of Respondeat Superior dictates that her employers may be held responsible for her actions if such actions were committed in the course of, and in relation to her normal job functions. Therefore they very well may end up liable for her behavior, and any damages, either compensatory or punitive may fall on their shoulders. Their reaction to a demand letter, and the subsequent complaint is anybody's guess. If you get a real bastard of a lawyer (especially working on contingency), he'll also try to get them on negligent retention--but only if you prove malice.
In law school, the first thing they teach is that there is never a definitive answer other than the universal 'it depends'. What this will depend on is your lawyer, your judge, your jury, and, most importantly, your defendant. Get lucky and she'll never forget the day she laid eyes on you. Get unlucky and you'll only end up with your nerves frayed even more than they already are.
Good luck.
-
I don't understand at all why he has to wait until next week to get his package.
Now, I'm not into astrology, so I changed his story around into something that might mean a bit more to those of us here who likewise are not into astrology.
Let's assume for a second that he was picking up his brand new CH joystick, with HOTAS and rudder pedals. Let's also assume that he had organised his weekend to get some free time for himself to fly Ah all weekend. He won't get another chance like this for months.
I for one would be calling whomever was necessary to get that UPS employee to hand over my package. I'd also file whatever charges I could against her....just for eating into my flight time and having the cops called on me.
Maybe it is just me.
Sorry Wabbit...no disrespect for astronomy...but sometimes you need to give the people here some perspective.
;)
-
Originally posted by AKWabbit
snip
My only beef is they would not help me go get my stuff, but I guess they have their boundaries.
Wab
Wab, its unfortunately a sad aspect of police SOP: First caller is "Victim" (not in fact, I'm talking about how they fill out their report forms). If you'd called immediately, before she did, and alleged theft, you'd have been "Victim" and its possible they might have pointed out to TatooBiyotch that it would be in her best interest to surrender your property.
Still, I woulda just walked in the closet and taken the package while she was on the first call. If she'd called the cops, when they arrived I'd have shown them the UPS ticket. No way they could have pursued theft, and so long as you acted calmly with no threats etc before the situation became heated, they would have been telling her the same as they told you ("fuggetabouit" ;))
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
And that's when the government is doing it. A private citizen can submit recordings to law enforcement and the rules are less stringent since the government was not involved in the act of recording.
Whoops, where I wrote 'Permission', I meant to write 'Knowledge.'
Even then, without a warrant or the knowledge that the conversation was being recorded, it will not stand up as evidence. The key in the piece you quoted was that the informant didn't have a problem with the recording. If he did have a problem with it, he could contend it's integrity.
I could record someone secretly and then immediately play it back. When they say that it is not them on the recording, you're still screwed.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I could record someone secretly and then immediately play it back. When they say that it is not them on the recording, you're still screwed.
In your above what if, you would be the informant and I suppose you would not have a problem with the recording you made. As a private citizen you do not have to have a warrant to record your own conversations. You can hand over your recording to the police and they can use it as evidence in a criminal proceeding.
The defense can challenge all evidence. That's kind of the job of defense attorneys.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
In your above what if, you would be the informant and I suppose you would not have a problem with the recording you made. As a private citizen you do not have to have a warrant to record your own conversations. You can hand over your recording to the police and they can use it as evidence in a criminal proceeding.
The defense can challenge all evidence. That's kind of the job of defense attorneys.
The defense will successfully have the evidence thrown out. Everytime I've heard about someone doing this, it was inadmissible.
-
Laser then you must not have very good hearing. I recorded many conversations I was involved in and gave myself permission to do so.
-
Originally posted by AKWabbit
Snip~
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Regards,
Wab
What's wrong with you??!! Did you not read the great THREAD here in this forum?
Everyone knows in your case you should have extracted a knife from your buttcrack and...
Hehe J/K
Actually talk to her corporate customer service department and explain what happened. Heck you already wrote what happened, share it with that dept. Everything that happened will validate your version for why in the world would you get so upset that she had to call the cops on you?
Use her company's department to punish her. If they refuse to do anything to your satisfaction, then consult legal advise. Gotta use evolution and weed those types out.
-
hmmm You have to question a business that would hire a carnival side show in a position that deals with the public.
-
OK Wabbit,
It's Monday, did you get your stuff and was it in working condition? Let us know what happened.
-
Originally posted by Shuffler
hmmm You have to question a business that would hire a carnival side show in a position that deals with the public.
they work cheap, got to watch that bottom line.
find out who owns the building, and sue them. For example, alex rodriguez who makes 26 million a year playing baseball owns 40 or 50 apt buildings, start the snow ball at the top of the mountain.
-
Well, Wabbit, you were definitely wronged no doubt about it. Only thing you can really do from here on out is launch a complaint with the building management and hope they actually deal with it. Be sure to tell them what the cops told you and how disrespectful the whole situations was.
They will either deal with it or not.....
Moving forward, if you need to pick up a package from the office again, you need to bring a witness with you.... Sucks but whatcha gonna do? If like you say the office can't keep staff it's unlikely management will do much about it. With a little luck this tattoo gal won't be at this job for any length of time.
Seeking legal advice? I wouldn't waste the time as chances are not much will come of it and it's going to be a bigger hassle than it's worth. You'll just end up loosing more sleep over it and the outcome probably won't make you feel any better, even if it's in your favour????
-
Keep a dairy of every conversation. Deal with the ownership/management company using registered mail. Do something like this:
http://lowes-sucks.com/
Explain that every time someone searches for their company or property names this information will be found.
There are many "sucks" sites on the internet and the creation and hosting of such has been tested and upheld in court. (See eff.org).
-
The idea the cops can't get involved is disenginous at best. I stood around many a time while some dirty hole retrieved her belongings from a hostile dudes place, it's called keeping the peace.
While it is a civil matter, that only prohibits the gendarme from forcing / ordering her to give up the package, she can ignore them.. it does not prevent the police from standing by and keeping the pace while you retrieve your package.
"We can't get involved in civil matters" is cop code for "this crap is boring and we want to leave".. while it is technically correct, it omits the fact they can and often do 'keep the peace' during civil matters, they could have easily walked with you to get your package, their sole mission being to stand there and observe.
Should there be a next time, ask them if they'll simply keep the peace, if they refuse.. request a supervisor and make threats of generating paperwork (citizen complaint / theft report / citizens arrest), a Sgt. would rather take 5 min to keep the peace than deal with the avalanche of paperwork poo should you complain. The minds eye image of IA crawling up sphincters can be a tremendous motivator.
Besides that, the police have other tools to motivate people into not acting a fool; like asking ms hood rat if she had warrants, was on probation, the last time she went to jail / what charge, or did drugs.. if they had turned their attention on her, my guess is she would quickly realize calling the cops was a bad idea, promptly retrieved your goods, smiled, and said "have a nice day sir" .. but I guess the cops weren't interested enough to do that.
-
LoL. It’s just a really weird world sometimes.
So all weekend I've been stessing. I'm about to have heart trouble. I just keep getting ready for this big climatic fight with cops, lawyers, eviction notices, explosions, car crashes, the works.
I call and verify the apartment manager is there go I go down. When I walk in they are falling over themselves to apologize.
Apparently after the cops left my place they went over to the apt office to get her story. She gave her side, which for the most part was the same as mine. After comparing the stories the cops basically told her they she had no valid complaint against me. They did tell her that she was in the wrong not to hand over my property regardless of any fight or argument. She should have handed over my package and then if she felt I had been rude to her, take it up with the manager later. I guess she didn't take it very well and started going off on the cops yelling and crying. Then she got up grabbed her stuff and just left. Just left. Didn't lock up, didn't contact her boss or any co-workers. Just left. I guess the cops were finished with her and had no reason to stop her.
The cops had to walk around and find one of the grounds people and let them know there was now no one in the office. She never came back. The grounds keeper didn't have keys to lockup the office. He had to call the manager, who was home sick with the flu or something. She had to drag her butt out of bed and drive over to man the office until she could contact one of the other agents.
It wasn't clear if they had contact with her later, but they suggested I let them know immediately if I see anyone suspicious hanging around my building (frankly, all my neighbors look a little suspicious to me). They also suggested I keep my vehicle parked out in the main open area for a while where it is in clear open view. Great. The .45 is staying loaded with hollow-points and in my bedside table for a while.
It’s so stupid.
First of all the manager said she handled the phone thing all wrong. If it was going to be a lengthy call you should have paused to handle me first. She should not have been on her cell. They had been having trouble with her on her cell with personal calls during her shift. (She apparently is having all these personal issues and the other employees have been having to cover for her a lot.) And she CERTAINLY should not have gone on to finish an entire second conversation with me waiting.
She did not HAVE to see my driver’s license. They could ask for one if they didn’t recognize the tenant. But she knew exactly who I was. They can accept either the UPS slip or a driver’s license. Even if she felt like she needed one, a Xerox copy of my license is in my apt file in her desk. She could have just pulled it.
Finally, unless I had become violent or threatened her, she had no right to not hand over my property after I had brought all requested identification. Hand over the package and take it up with her boss later.
Oh, and she REALLY should not have blown her cool and abandon the office unsecured without notifying anyone. ;o)
So she is basically not employed there anymore and I have my camera. And you want to know something really funny? I am now feeling a slight ting of guilt that she is fired. I hate to see anyone lose a job. I guess I could have been less angry at being kept waiting. I mean in the grand scheme of things what’s 30 extra minutes out of your life. In the end if I had gotten my camera, a written letter of apology for the management, and a promise to council the employee on proper customer etiquette, I would have been satisfied with that. All I want is my stuff and to not be ****ed with. The same two things I wanted last Sat morning.
On a side note, the box did have a noticeably crunched in corner. It was stamped “fragile” all over so I doubt that happened at UPS. Maybe, but I doubt it. It looked to me like someone held the package over their head and gave it a good toss onto the floor.
Luckily it was very well boxed. There was an outer box, Styrofoam panels inside surrounding a second box lined with egg-shell foam. The second box didn’t show any deformation. I haven’t used it yet but plugged it in and made some sanity checks. It appears fine.
What creeps me out is that I feel I was probably lucky. She apparently told the cops pretty much what happened; stupidly still thinking she had been in the right. She could have easily made up any crap she wanted, like accusing me of threatening her or trying to grab at her. There would have been nobody to back up my story as we were alone. I don’t have any confidence in our jury system.
Oh well. Lessons learned all around.
And thanks all for the support and great advice and information.
Regards,
Wab
-
Hell haveth fury on a man who scorns a woman! Be safe out there Wab!
-
Glad to hear all turned out well. You should feel a ting of nothing. You did not cause any of this.
-
Originally posted by AKWabbit
I am now feeling a slight ting of guilt that she is fired.
No need to even feel that. She got herself fired. Think of it if she was still at that job, you'd be fearing that your future packages might get damaged or "lost".
-
Originally posted by AKWabbit
So she is basically not employed there anymore and I have my camera. And you want to know something really funny? I am now feeling a slight ting of guilt that she is fired. I hate to see anyone lose a job. I guess I could have been less angry at being kept waiting. I mean in the grand scheme of things what’s 30 extra minutes out of your life. In the end if I had gotten my camera, a written letter of apology for the management, and a promise to council the employee on proper customer etiquette, I would have been satisfied with that. All I want is my stuff and to not be ****ed with. The same two things I wanted last Sat morning.
You are kidding right? First of all you didn't get her fired she quit, and if you would have got her fired she deserved it.
-
Hehe, nice guys finish.. first? For once at least :)
Grats Wab... Now show us more space pics :D
-
Originally posted by moot
Now show us more space pics :D
Mars is coming around soon. Its not going to be as good a pass-by as 2003 or 2005, but its going to be better that its going to be for the next 16 years. Hopefully it won't be socked in with sandstorms the whole time. ;o)
Clear skies,
Wab
-
Glad it worked out Wab. I wouldn't feel guilty. Sounds like she had some more serious issues to sort out other than you. I think you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.....
It's good to see management will deal with things, they could have just given you your package and explained nothing. Which in turn would have left you further **ssed off and looking for justice.
-
From now on,
whenever I see a picture of stars,
I’ll wonder if some poor clerk (who was just having a bad day) got fired because some impatient photodweeb just couldn’t wait to pick up his silly star camera so he could then rush back to his apartment and not use it for an entire week…
-
Originally posted by eskimo2
From now on,
whenever I see a picture of stars,
I’ll wonder if some poor clerk (who was just having a bad day) got fired because some impatient photodweeb just couldn’t wait to pick up his silly star camera so he could then rush back to his apartment and not use it for an entire week…
:lol :cry :lol :aok :rofl :furious
-
That is a classic Eskimo!
LOL!:rofl
Great story Wabbit.:aok
-
I knew at some point in this thread I would get Eskimo'd.
I'm just waiting for my cartoon. :cool:
Wab
Originally posted by eskimo2
From now on,
whenever I see a picture of stars,
I’ll wonder if some poor clerk (who was just having a bad day) got fired because some impatient photodweeb just couldn’t wait to pick up his silly star camera so he could then rush back to his apartment and not use it for an entire week…