Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: toonces3 on September 30, 2007, 11:47:54 AM
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Hi all,
Just lately, the last few days, I've been making a study of the Typhoon. From what I've read, both online and in books, the Typhoon really suffers used in the air to air role, but excels at air to ground.
Even though I fly in attack scoring mode, and am on the lookout for GV's, I find myself gravitating to air-air anyway because I enjoy it more.
In terms of flying air-air, the FW-190A5, for example, has a ENY of 25, the Dora has ENY of 15, yet the Tyhpoon has ENY of 10. Assuming that ENY is somehow tied to performance, I'm wondering how the Typhoon outperforms the 190.
In my limited opinion, the Typhoon is hard to dogfight in. Even Soda's page basically says that once you're not supersonic in the Typhoon, defensively you're dead meat. Yet, in an A5, you have alot of defensive opportunities- excellent roll, decent acceleration, and pretty good top end speed. The D9 expands upon these attributes, although I find the A5 more nimble.
So, my question, then, is why the discrepancy between the ENY numbers, and how, if in any way, is the Typhoon better at air-air than the 190 series.
Hope this question makes sense.
See ya,
Toonces
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4 hispano's:aok
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Rolls like crap, but lotta guys manage to use the rudder to get it to be useful enough to put the hizookas on stuff, also seems to do ok slow
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eny doesnt seem to equal only a 2 a performence. It has awsome a2g ability and has 4 hizookas, if eny= performence then the dora should have a 5 eny.
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For whatever reason, all LW rides saves 262/163 are high eny....lowest is 15 i think (as opposed to P47n, which is 5:furious )
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envy has to do with how much the plane is used i dont know how it exactly works but how i kno is one is the la 7 it always has an envy of 5
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I thought the hispanos might have something to do with it, because the Typhoon is the first plane I've successfully snapshot planes in half with.
Twice the other night I took a very high deflection crossing shot, and basically blew the plane right in half. Very nice!
I am very, very reluctant to engage in any sort energy spending fight with it though, as once the speed is gone, I really feel vulnerable. I'm comfortable getting the 190 slow, although I prefer not to, because it can still roll, the A5 can turn somewhat, and they all build back their energy fairly quickly (compared to a Typhoon for sure).
The ENY should have something to do with relative performance, I would think. I'm not sure how the Typhoon stacks up with the 190 series in air to ground. I'm pretty sure a few of the 190's can lug around some bombs and rockets.
The 5 ENY for the P47N also makes no sense to me whatsoever, but that's for another thread...
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When flying the typhoon on the edge you have to be a man and wrestle with it. You have to be the boss of this plane or she wont be any good for you. The rudder is great for bleeding energy and the guns obviously kill in an instant.
It will turn, but not sustained turns kinda like the 190's but will still outurn them.
In defensive moves you have to smash the rudder and she slows real good many a time have LA7's tried to chase me after murdering lots of his friends for him to go whistling by and then kill him too :)
I think the doras ENY value should match the Typhoon.
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The Typhoon in A2A is somewhat similar to the 190D - a terrific cherry picker.
ENY has little to do with performance. It has to do with how unbalancing the plane is. The typhoon, apart from its role as a cherry picker, is also one of the prime suicide base porkers. Giving it low ENY means that you get more perks for shooting it down before/after it porked the ordnance/troops at your base and it get less perks for cherry picking you and running away to land it.
Now the only question that remains is what are perk points good for?
The P47N has low ENY due to being a very late war plane (though its numbers were not so small) that served only in the PTO. Not that it really matters since in AH environment it is not really better than the D models and in many cases it is actually worse. If you find someone to fight you at 30k, then it may justify its ENY based on performance. That is my opinion of course. The true ENY criterion is HT's mood.
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when HTC produces a new plane. Its ENY is given on relative performance
vs the plane set and its combat year contemporaries.
Then when it gets used in the arena or not used, the ENY is adjusted.
for the Typhoon, its current eny is based on 4 Hispano cannons, its fairly
fast, and ALOT and i mean Alot of people fly it. so its ENY has been lowered since it came out. mainly its current ENY is because of MA usage.
Whels
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ENY is based on usage and performance in AH....which isnt quite the same as historical reality.
If you look at the last tour the tiffie beats the 190 across all models in air to air. It also beats the F4U overall, the P-51 overall, the P-47 overall and the P-38 overall as well as the La-7 and the la-5. Remember the hurricane has an ENY of 10 for the same reason.
The secret to the Tiffie is simple...its not a dog fighter its a drive by shooting in progress. It's good E fighter and it'll go 270 degrees at speed with anything...but its not a plane you can yank around in traffic. now you can bleed E very quickly and if you've got spacing you can suprise a guy easily....but getting caught neg-e is tough to overcome...
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Humble (and others),
That is very interesting about ENY, and about the Tyhpoon stats vs. other aircraft.
I constantly see folks landing kills in the Typh, and I upped one a few months ago for the first time. I thought, "What an absolute DOG!" and didn't look back.
The other night I was bored, and decided to try something different and took the Typhoon up. I was surprised to find that I could get, and land, kills in the MA as long as I didn't slow down to fight. Of course, this isn't going to win alot of friends in the MA, but the lethality of the plane was surprising given how poor of a dogfighter is seems on paper. I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't do it myself.
I compare it to the 190 because the D9 is just about as fast as the Typh, but can perform better than it air to air. My first thought, then, is that its
ENY should be lower than the D9. Air to ground notwithstanding.
I find myself enjoying the plane for a completely illogical reason- it looks so freaking cool! Stupid, I know, but there it is.
Anyway, very interesting discussion guys. I'm learning alot.
Toonces
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The Typhoon is an abomination on the eye.
They're useful in the MA especially for attack missions.
I hate dogfighting in them and love dogfighting with them because they suck against 109s and most people don't know how to fly them, apparently.
It's easy to spot those who don't know what they're doing in the Typhoon too.
The Dora looks way better.
Haha
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nazi.
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Well, if one compares the tiffie to a 190A5, one finds that the Tiffie has at least double the firepower (being generous to the alueA5), a much better cockpit, better turning and better acceleration, plus a much higher top speed, especially down low. It should come as a very small shock that the tiffie has a lower ENY value.
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dora = purdy :D
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z125/JB73Mustaine/fw190d911jg26.jpg)
as for the typhoon, well in air to air "performance" I am pretty sure the aircraft carriers can out flat turn the Dora, the typh has NO problem in that area, it can also do a hammerhead 150% better than a dora, and I think it it has a better zoom climb overall.
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The Typhoon is a great plane kept fast and the 4x20mm Hispanos are lethal as h***.
Everyone worries when a Tempest is nearby... why not it's little brother? Aside from the power difference (meaning all-around better performance for the Tempest) they can both do the same things.
Part of what makes the Typh feel like a dog to many is it's reverse torque engine which means you have to reverse your normal turn and roll tendencies to get the most out of it. In fact, the torque is so powerful it makes it hard to turn into the torque so, as others have said, you need to use rudder to manhandle it around.
In a slower turn fight this means you are likey to stall if following most other planes through the turn, but, although it may seem akward not to be chasing someones six, if you reverse you're own turn it really isn't that bad a turn fighter (much better than any of the 190's, slightly worse than a Pony D).
Also, because of this high reverse torque issue, rolling into the torque will stall you inverted even at medium speeds.
Turn and roll with the torque and the Typh is actually a very sweet plane, otherwise, prepare to use a LOT of rudder.
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Well, I had the opportunity to try this out last night.
There was a Typh over my field last night while I was in the tower. I watched him pick this guy over and over, always keeping his alt and diving on this guy re-upping and basically blowing him up in a pass or two. Finally, when his back was turned, I upped a D9 in the opposite direction and climbed out on WEP. Once I got about 4k of alt, I reversed and accelerated to about 300 mph.
Now I'm approaching him 1v1. He sees me, he's about 1.5k above me and of course he dives on me. I pull into him and he misses the HO/high angle shot. We extend a bit, go another turn and he settles 800 to 1000 back from me. I do a couple of scissors, barrels, etc. and eventually end up 600-800 out from him flat out on the deck.
At this point another guy engaged me and I had to break off. I feel confident that, had I not been engaged, it would have been a foot race. Given this guy had been B n Z'ing for several minutes before I upped, it's debatable if his WEP would've run out in time for me to run him down. Had that happened, I feel confident I would have killed him.
I can't be certain, I'm not expert in either plane, but it certainly seems that beyond the 2nd merge and a few twists, the Typhoon had realized that further maneuvering would only have served to reduce his energy to fight, while the Dora retained enough low-E maneuverability to shift the advantage to the Dora. Realizing that, the Typhoon disengaged and used low-alt speed to egress. However, given equal speeds at the start, the race would ultimately depend on who had enough WEP left. It would have been fun to continue this fight. This guy didn't seem to be a total n00b in the Typhoon, can't say for certain, and it would have been interesting to follow this experiment to its logical conclusion.
Might be fun to DA someone and try this again.
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Like I said, the Typh/Temp are not that bad at turn fighting.
I got caught climbing out of one of our fields the other night in a Spit VIII by Drediock above me in a Temp. He tried at least three fast B'n'Z firing passes on me but I was able to avoid every one, all the time burning a little more of my already limited E.
In the end we wound up on the deck in a classic flat turn fight and he got inside me before I could get around on him. I'm nearly positive he had reduced throttle so as to maintain turn and not overshoot as I was surprised he was turning that well with me (I was pulled well into the stall buzzer).
I fly 190's a lot and Temps/Typhs occasionally and I wouldn't go more than a turn or two against them in a 190 (at least not one on one).
While they (Temps/Typhs) are fast at alt (17K or so) they aren't all that fast on the deck. I've been run down by Ponys and even Yak-9U's on the deck.
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On a tangent, I've just finished reading Osprey's "Typhoon/Tempest Aces of World War 2". The cover painting shows a pair of Typhoons shooting down an early-model 190. The Typhoon spent its early air-to-air career hunting down low-level 190 raids. It seems that the Luftwaffe used the 190 for high-speed, low-level hit & run bombing raids, very much in the manner of Aces High's Typhoon. Looking at the 190's stats, I see that the 190A5 is faster than all the early-model Spitfires at low level, particularly at 5K.
The combats described in the book are broadly the same. The Typhoon pilots spot the 190s early, in part because they have radar. Then they dive on the 190s, and either (a) "I fired a one-second burst from 350-200 yards and observed strikes around the starboard wing root and cockpit, after which the 190 turned onto its back and descended vertically until it hit the ground" or (b) "I couldn't gain on the 190, until he tried to turn, at which point I caught up and fired a one-second burst etc". Almost invariably the 190 pilot does not bail out, because the combats happen just above the water, although the book describes a kill at 20,000+ feet against a Ju 88. Loads of Do 217s fell to the Typhoon's guns. A couple of dozen RAF pilots were also killed by the Typhoon. At least one man died of carbon monoxide poisoning, and several died when the tail unit fell off in a dive. As I have mentioned in another thread, one German ack-ack gunner was killed when the wing of a low-level Typhoon struck his head.
There are only a couple of anecdotes in which the 190 pilot does any effective jinking manoeuvres. I assume that initial shock and surprise counted for a huge amount in real-life air warfare; that, and the fact that real human beings can't flick their eyes around in a split-second by twiddling a hat switch.
The Tempest chapters are relatively dull, but I urge you to read Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Circus", in which he describes being monstered in his Tempest by one of the few remaining 190D aces, right in the last month or so of the war. He tries to catch up with the 190D, and then he glances at his instruments for a moment, and whoot! the 190D is on him and he has to hit the silk.
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In my limited opinion, the Typhoon is hard to dogfight in. Even Soda's page basically says that once you're not supersonic in the Typhoon, defensively you're dead meat
i dare you to fight allison's typhoon in one of those 190s
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I don't know who Allison is, but there are any number of folks (Dedalos comes to mind, probably SkyRock too, and others) who can kill me in virtually any plane.
My whole argument presupposes equally skilled pilots.
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Well, this thread has probably run its course, but for the sake of completeness, I'll post my experience from last night.
I upped a Typh, and was flying over a friendly airfield at maybe 10k. There was a lot of dar bar, and alot of friendlies as well, so I was expecting action. I would usually grab 15k of altitude, but my understanding is that the Typhoon prefers lower alts so I'm experimenting with coming in lower and faster in it.
At any rate, somehow a FW-190A5 gets the jump on me. Came in from high 6 with more speed than me and I was automatically put on the defensive. As he closed, I gave a good hard high-G turn figuring he couldn't match it (accidentally turned left- oops), then rolled hard right into a split s and pointed my nose right at the deck. Got my speed up, pulled up at about 1k and checked 6. The A5 was still sitting back there, 600 out. While I was watching, I saw it go to 800. At this point I figure I'm opening and given my speed advantage I should start opening the distance. However, I then see the range go back to 600! As best I can figure, with combat trim on, over 400 mph the auto trim can't compensate for the nose up tendency and I must have started floating up, reducing speed and allowing the A5 to close.
I'm not proud of my next move, but I'm being honest here. I had the town just in front of me so I aimed for the town, got right in the bushes and hoped for the best. By then another friendly had engaged the A5, and the A5 broke off. Had there been no town, 1v1, I doubt I would have successfully evaded (or even beat) the A5.
I strongly feel the 190 is a better dogfighter than the Typhoon.
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Allison is a pilot who flies a Typhoon. When he starts to get near you he will warp around and you will not see him again until he is on your tail shooting.
He cheats somehow.
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Calling her a him may have ticked her off, now she's really gonna wup on ya.
shamus
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Jarski, tutkitaan ennenku hutkitaan. ;)
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"i dare you to fight allison's typhoon in one of those 190s"
I have and she managed to lure me to dump E and after that my brief attempt of furballing was just a formality after my A8 lost a wing.
Then again I do not have a high regard of A8's dogfighting abilities as the choices are quite limited of what it can do. I feel that Tiffie has slightly better acceleration, better E retention and better turn than A8 and the roll does not help too much if the Tiffie dumps some E and stays behind as the A8 cannot make major changes in direction without either stalling or losing E.
With A5 the margin is smaller but I rarely fly it so I don't really know. D9 is probably better than Tiffie.
And of course Tiffie has better guns than any 190.
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
"i dare you to fight allison's typhoon in one of those 190s"
I have and she managed to lure me to dump E and after that my brief attempt of furballing was just a formality after my A8 lost a wing.
Then again I do not have a high regard of A8's dogfighting abilities as the choices are quite limited of what it can do. I feel that Tiffie has slightly better acceleration, better E retention and better turn than A8 and the roll does not help too much if the Tiffie dumps some E and stays behind as the A8 cannot make major changes in direction without either stalling or losing E.
With A5 the margin is smaller but I rarely fly it so I don't really know. D9 is probably better than Tiffie.
And of course Tiffie has better guns than any 190.
-C+
yeah i personally find it easy to kill most 190s in a tiffy unless they have much more E at the beginning of the fight
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Laciner, - The first Griffon powered Spits were used to hunt 190's on their speed raids. They would actually catch them running, and the 190's could not use the rollie-rollie to their benefit. (there were clipped Spit XII's)
The tiffies, so fast at low alt, and lethally armed would normally have the runners for toast before there was much of a fight. does anyone have a dogfight account of 190's vs tiffies? I remember only one where Ta 152's shot down Tempests, but that's about it.
Same in AH. Once a Tiffie starts scoring hits on you, you are dead.
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Originally posted by morfiend
4 hispano's:aok
The Hurricane IIC has 4 hispanos.
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It sounds like alot depends on how the engagement either starts, or evolves.
I would feel very uncomfortable in a Typhoon having a 190 behind me with an energy advantage.
Likewise, I'd feel uncomfortable, but maybe not quite as uncomfortable, in a 190 with a Typhoon perched above me.
It seems like, according you y'all, the fight could go either way co-alt, co-E. Interesting...
One thing I probably overlook is the killing power of the hispanos. While the 190 puts out a lot of killing power, the ballistics are such (for me) that I need to be very close to a maneuvering target to hit it. The hispanos give a significantly greater reach, at least if you can shoot well.
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Would learning the typh help in getting ready to learn the tempest? I'm thinking about flying the tempest and debating on whether I should spend some time in the typhoon first.
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The tempest is basically just a faster version of the typhoon. Not to mention the Tempest is perked.
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Originally posted by loonetik
Would learning the typh help in getting ready to learn the tempest? I'm thinking about flying the tempest and debating on whether I should spend some time in the typhoon first.
Yes, it will help a lot. They are virtually the same plane but the Temp has more power.
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"The first Griffon powered Spits were used to hunt 190's on their speed raids. They would actually catch them running, and the 190's could not use the rollie-rollie to their benefit. (there were clipped Spit XII's)"
Bait(TM)? It sure stinks like that... :rolleyes:
-C+
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Bait? Nope. The first Griffon Spits were used to chase marauding and fast 190's. They were actually (to the surprize of the RAF top brass) faster than the Typhoons. As Jeff Quill put it after testing a Griffon Spit vs Faber's 190 and a Typhoon (he solemnly beat both in a race), - "The cat was still well and among the pigeons"
(something close to that).
Anyway, the expert on this is a non-baiting gentleman known as Dan/Guppy.
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Spit XIIs of 91 Squadron were used in the Spring of 41 to counter the hit and run raids by bomb armed 190s on the south coast of England. Best day was May 25, 1943 when they downed 5 190s off Beachy Head.
Later flying Jim Crow Recce sorties on the French coast there were a number of occasions were 190s jumped the Spit XIIs but the Spit XIIs were able to extend away from the 190s. This was done on a number of occasions where in the heat of the moment the Spit drivers forgot to jettison their 30 gallon DTs and were still able to maintain their edge in speed.
Tiffies were rushed into service use for the same reason, to counter those 190 nuisance raids.
They had a tendency to bounce the clipped wing Spit XIIs thinking they were 109s.
The XIIs were used to their best abilities in the Spring summer and fall of 43 ending up high scoring fighter wing in th Fall when based out of Tangmere. Best day was 9 for no loss and based on research later they didn't overclaim that day.
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We need to organize a 'bribe HT' group to get the XII :) .
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Originally posted by Kev367th
We need to organize a 'bribe HT' group to get the XII :) .
A SPAD XII? You have my support :aok ;)
(http://www.flyandrive.com/images/spad.jpg)
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Originally posted by Lusche
A SPAD XII? You have my support :aok ;)
(http://www.flyandrive.com/images/spad.jpg)
Spad Dweeb.
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"The first Griffon Spits were used to chase marauding and fast 190's."
Fast 190s? On the deck? With many different kinds of external bomb racks or ordnance if they were caught incoming?
Ok, what ever...
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
"The first Griffon Spits were used to chase marauding and fast 190's."
Fast 190s? On the deck? With many different kinds of external bomb racks or ordnance if they were caught incoming?
Ok, what ever...
-C+
Not sure what you are trying to bait here, but the 190's did indeed do some marauder work. Since distances were little (as with RAF rhubarb jobs), interceptions had to be really fast, as well as the chasing aircraft being able to catch up.
BTW, down low the LW usually held the cards at the time, - in terms of top speed that is. Not sure of the effect of racks and such on the 190's top speeds, but they were indeed coming and leaving at high speeds. Not many minutes for the job.
AFAIK they were usually caught while leaving, - since incoming would not give an alarm enough to enable an interception.
Again, Dan is the expert on that period.
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"down low the LW usually held the cards at the time"
The only defense those 190s had was a relatively good speed on the deck (after the ordnance was dropped), camouflaging, and low altitude to avoid radar detection, thats about it. I think they should have been able to catch them even with Merlin Spits but Griffon gave more leeway for reaction time after the detection was made. And it does not really matter if the chaser was a Tiffie, down low you can not really benefit much of having a superior rolling rate. Quite evident if you fly it in AH.
I'm not sure what you were trying to point out, or bait, with that Spit remark but it resembled me of MA Spit 16 dweeb rejoicing the slaughter of a 190F8. Hurrah, talk about challenge...
I feel sorry for those LW pilots who had to carry out such idiotic raids with little strategic gain and with not much chances of surviving a low level bail-out or a high speed ditch.
But if you get a kick out of the thought, fine. :p
-C+
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Well here is my side of things. I love the 190 and I have fought a lot in those especially the A8 and I belive that, that is the toughest plane to fly in the game. You can get the 190's prtty fast and with 30mm cannons it is easy to kill someone. the typhs were the best to kill the 109's before the tempast came out and then the tempast took over. they are very evenly matched in stability and speed. The 190 has a better roll rate but the typhoon has a better turn rate. I wil all come down to the pitlot skill to see wich one wins.
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Charge, my point is that the 190 nuicance raids were fast, low, badly detectable, and then the empty 190 was still possibly able to extend from the defender, - who would in many cases be a Spit V or even a IX (?) whou would not be able to catch them on the deck.
The Spit XII however could.
Bottom line there, is that the XII would get there faster and be able to catch the victim on the run as well as having a better window in time and sighting.
This was fast business.
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Interesting discussion guys.
I can't recall from my reading the REASON for the development of the Typhoon- I'll have to re-read and see what I can find. Same with the Spit 12.
I was sort of thinking of all of this in terms of AH2- sorta forgot that these planes are all based upon the real deal. This wasn't just a game for some.
On the deck, I still think the 190 would have the edge over the Typhoon 1v1. If the 190 can roll twice he can get the Typhoon out of phase and either engage or disengage; although a flat out foot race might be tough for the 190 if he has a way to go.
Against a spit, the 190 shouldn't stand a chance provided the Spit can catch the 190.
Interesting stuff.
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Extract from Quills book, bit about the Spit XII -
http://www.crew-green.com/Griffon%20Spitfire.htm
[edit] Am I still right in assuming that neither the Tiffy or Mossie carry the correct 60lbs rocket, but have a generic rocket instead?
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Originally posted by toonces3
Interesting discussion guys.
I can't recall from my reading the REASON for the development of the Typhoon- I'll have to re-read and see what I can find. Same with the Spit 12.
I was sort of thinking of all of this in terms of AH2- sorta forgot that these planes are all based upon the real deal. This wasn't just a game for some.
On the deck, I still think the 190 would have the edge over the Typhoon 1v1. If the 190 can roll twice he can get the Typhoon out of phase and either engage or disengage; although a flat out foot race might be tough for the 190 if he has a way to go.
Against a spit, the 190 shouldn't stand a chance provided the Spit can catch the 190.
Interesting stuff.
In game, assuming equal pilots of at least below average skill, no model 190 has a chance 1v1 against a Tiffie no matter the starting situation (advantage, disadvantage, co-E)... to say nothing of a Spitfire.