Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rogwar on September 30, 2007, 10:09:09 PM
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As many of you may know, I travel a lot and have seen this type of thing happen from time to time. People get all weirded out about missing a flight and such.
However, my questions is how would one choke on handcuffs assuming they are behind her back? I've been trying to think about that one and have no answer.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070930/D8S01G0O0.html
If the handcuffs were in front I could see how a disturbed person might use them to deliberately choke yourself.
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The body passes out way before she can 'chock' herself.
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Originally posted by Russian
The body passes out way before she can 'chock' herself.
Obviously she didn't choke herself on purpose. I'm interested to see what position she got her body in that she managed to have the cuffs around her neck. Maybe she got stuck folded over so she couldn't expand her chest cavity and suffocated.. I am morbidly curious.
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Agree with that as a strong possibility, Steve. Having had several people I've dealt with try to wrangle out of cuffs or get their hands out front, the most popular method seems to be the -scrunch up and get your feet through your arms- method (for lack of a better term!)
At the apex, you would be pretty well folded up and if you got stuck that way with the handcuffed hands on the bottom of your feet, I can see the asphyxiation occurring.
But up around the neck? Weird...
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that's what I was thinking....asphyxiation in such a position...as opposed to handcuffs around the neck. Somethings not right in the story.
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People have died from being hog-tied with handcuffs.
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Nothing in the story attributes the cause of death yet. There is also nothing that indicates that she was cuffed behind her back. She may well have simply died of natural causes or had some kind of seizure. The autopsy will likely have some answers for that later.
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/01/phoenix.airport.death/index.html
"Police handcuffed Gotbaum with her hands behind her back and took her a holding cell, where she was later found dead, said Hill.
Police "found her with the handcuffs up by her neck area," Hill said. Gotbaum was unconscious and police and firefighters tried to revive her by CPR and other means, Hill said. "They could not revive her and tragically, she died."
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It would be nice if they described better what they mean by the cuffs were up by her neck area?
It's not uncommon for a woman cuffed in back to be able to move her arms up front, but the neck comment is just really vague.
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That's pretty sad, I feel for her family. I hope they'll be able to figure out what happened and present some tips for preventing a repetition that other security and LEOs can use.
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Cause of death..... Stupidity
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Originally posted by Chairboy
That's pretty sad, I feel for her family. I hope they'll be able to figure out what happened and present some tips for preventing a repetition that other security and LEOs can use.
We are going to find, via the autopsy, that the action of the LEO's had nothing to do with her death, I feel.
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The woman was a spoiled pompous brat!
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i have a question, if you place someone in custody, is that persons welfare your responsibly?
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Yes it is. That does not mean you are responsible for a pre existing medical condition or a deliberate attempt to injure themselves as soon as you turn your back. Even a suicide watch is not necessarily constant eyes on monitoring.
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If she somehow got her right arm in front of her, and her left arm was still behind her, that could put a pressure strong enough for strangulation on her neck.
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Hmmm, wrists behind your back, slide them up, shove your head through your left elbow...
It's the start of a trick used to get out of straight jackets.
With handcuffs, that'd put the chain directly across her throat, and her joints locked into a position where she couldn't get it back off. Left elbow basically stuck on top of your head, and right wrist cranked all the way across your back, with the chain running under your armpit. All it takes is 3 seconds of a blood choke to put somebody unconscious. Most people couldn't tell you the difference though between a choke (cutting off the air) & a strangulation (cutting off the blood).
Under your butt and under your feet is way easier... but I'm not a flight-missing nut case in full panic mode. Had she been rational about the whole thing, and just caught a later flight instead of demanding things... well, this thread wouldn't exist.
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I tried that, I cant bend that way. besides would it depend on how wide about the cuffs are? did they use metal cuffs? or the zip tie type?..
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Originally posted by Airscrew
I tried that, I cant bend that way. besides would it depend on how wide about the cuffs are? did they use metal cuffs? or the zip tie type?..
Some can, most can't. I can kinda-sorta do it. Chain length & type matter, but only to a certain extent. If they're long enough to start the move, they're probably long enough to choke yourself with.
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REports down here in Phoenix say she was on her way to rehab in Tucson. Toxicology will come back w/ some interesting results, I speculate.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
We are going to find, via the autopsy, that the action of the LEO's had nothing to do with her death, I feel.
I'm sure you're right, I was thinking more along the lines of suggestions for cuffing that further reduce the likelihood of letting idiots find a way to hurt themselves.
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Yeah....TEACH those airport security scum....just up and DIE on their oscar!!
Show THEM who's boss!
WTG Psycho-Lady!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
68:aokROX
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possibly she was chained to floor with handcuffs on...chain was attached to cuffs
eihter way..thsoe security gusy are getn Grilled
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She deserved it.
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Why the hell was she still cuffed in a cell. I think one of the Airport secuity got their perverte jollies off on her as she was kinda cute.
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yeah, why was she cuffed and in a cell? But at least they didn't taze her and have six large officers sit on her when they cuffed her....or did they?
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Don't taze me, bro!:lol
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Mystery solved...
From CNN article-link for full article below snip.
"In the holding room, there is a bench with an 'eyehook' on it. The officers took a 'shackle,' which is described as a metal chain, approximately 16 inches long, with a large 'handcuff' on each side. The total length of the chain with handcuffs is approximately 24 inches," the statement said.
"One of the handcuffs on the 'shackle' was attached to the 'eyehook' on the bench. The other handcuff of the shackle was attached to the chain of the handcuffs that were already on Ms. Gotbaum's hands.
"So Ms. Gotbaum was handcuffed with her hands behind her back, and additionally those handcuffs were attached to a shackle that kept her attached to the bench."
Gotbaum was not deemed a threat to herself or others, the police statement said. If she had been, she would have been monitored. Phoenix police policy is that prisoners can be left alone in holding rooms as long as they are checked every 15 minutes.
Hill said Thursday that Gotbaum was left alone for six or eight minutes. Police previously had said it was 15 or 20 minutes.
After officers left, Gotbaum continued to scream, the police statement said. However, police checked on her when she fell silent and found her unconscious. Gotbaum was sitting on the floor, with her head on the bench and the handcuffs under her chin, the police report said.
"Initial information ... indicated that Ms. Gotbaum had somehow worked the handcuffs to the front of her body, probably from under her legs, and had pulled the chain from the shackle across her neck area," the statement said.
Officers used cardiopulmonary resuscitation, a defibrillator and other measures in attempts to save her life. In the police report, an officer said that Gotbaum vomited while CPR was being performed on her and that when she did, he could smell alcohol. Firefighters arrived and pronounced Gotbaum dead.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/airport.death/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/airport.death/index.html)
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Another proof that the theory of evolution is valid.
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Fox News Article (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Oct05/0,4670,AirportDeath,00.html)
He husband called emergency dispatchers before learning of her death to say she was in a deep depression and suicidal, according to the police report.
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so she's sucidial and they sent her to Tuscon unescorted, that makes a lot of sense...
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Did the Airline know of her condition?
Why weren't the police notified of her condition?
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It's pretty darn silly to think that airlines are somehow privy to medical records of all their passengers. How are they supposed to know which ones are suicidal? Are we going to have them start screening passengers for clearance from their doctors and shrinks? :huh
If the passenger is not under escort, not under supervision of a 24/7 guardian appointed by the court why would anyone have knowledge of her condition?
Police also do not have access to medical records of people, much less someone just passing through on an airliner. :rolleyes:
Nothing in any of the stories indicated she had been adjudicated as incompetent. Nothing in any of the stories indicated she was not traveling alone and unsupervised. I somehow doubt very seriously that she had a "medic alert" bracelet indicating she was suicidal, depressed or had any physical condition.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Fox News Article (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Oct05/0,4670,AirportDeath,00.html)
He husband called emergency dispatchers before learning of her death to say she was in a deep depression and suicidal, according to the police report.
I'm glad she got the job done right without harming anyone else.