Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SkyRock on October 01, 2007, 01:31:54 PM
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http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14243131/detail.html
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I'm guessing there is no sort of statute of limitations on this sort of thing.
But deporting a guy who has been here over 50 years for something that happened over 60 years ago?
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Get him. Theres no honor in being a soldier who kills innocent people. He's lived a life of relative peace and prosperity here in the U.S., while who knows how many civilians he killed or maimed with his attack dogs.
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The only problem I have with situations like this is the simple fact soldiers do as they are told. He was ordered to be stationed at that camp. He was ordered to guard it. He simply did as he was ordered. It is not as simple as saying "no" or "I won't" for him. He was a soldier, part of a military force. Unlike an officer of said force who makes decisions and orders for other troops. Officers are no doubt guilty, but a simple dog handler?
Now, if it comes out that he willingly participated in the killing of civilians while on duty there then that is a different story all together, but so far these self proclaimed Nazi hunters have not proved that. So far all they have brought to the table against this guy is that he was a guard and a dog handler there.
I have a buddy who is currently on duty at Gitmo. What happens to him if it is found that what they are doing there is against international law? Does his ordered presence there make him a war criminal? Of course not. He was/is simply doing as ordered. I am pretty sure this guy in the story is no different.
These groups make simple duty sound as if this guy was some sort of cruel ****** who loved his job. I would like to hear his side of things before I say hang the guy.
-Spot
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nev4r ferget!!
why the hating on the dog in the article? Its not his fault vicious attack dog indeed. do they expect guards to have a Westy in a novelty sweater?
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Paperwork filed by the Criminal Division’s Office of Special Investigations (OSI) and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) said Henss joined the Hitler Youth organization in Germany in 1934 as a 12 or 13-year-old boy and joined the Nazi Party in September 1940.
In early 1941, Henss volunteered to serve in the Waffen SS and became an SS dog handler in 1942 after serving in the elite Waffen SS combat unit “Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler.”
Investigators also said that Henss taught other concentration camp guards at Dachau and Buchwenwald how to use attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape.
I don't know, sounds like a willing participant to me.
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Okay, if you go by this, from the article;
“Hundreds of thousands of persons were confined under horrific conditions at Dachau and Buchenwald on the basis of their race, religion, national origin or political opinion,” said Assistant Attorney General Alice S. Fisher of the Criminal Division in a release.
“By commencing these proceedings against a man who participated in the victimization of those who were interned there, the Justice Department continues to make good on its pledge to ensure that the United States does not become a sanctuary for human rights violators.”
“The SS committed mass murder at Dachau and Buchenwald and subjected thousands of inmates to slave labor, starvation, grotesque medical experimentation, and torture,” said OSI Director Eli M. Rosenbaum, whose office investigated the case.
“The brutal concentration camp system could not have functioned without the determined efforts of SS men such as Paul Henss, who, with a vicious attack dog, stood between these victims and the possibility of freedom.”
There are in fact, many soldiers in different armies' all over the world who are guilty of the same thing. Yes, he was a guard; No, he wasn't the officer ordering the valves turned on in the gas chambers. Taking orders, no matter how distasteful, is something that a soldier does. Using the reasoning that current Nazi hunters' use, even the pastry chef for the camp commandant is a 'war criminal'.
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I love the people who make it sound like he had a choice, sit at this camp with a gaurd dog, or be sent to the Eastern Front, those were probably his only two choices.
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30 million illegal alien scumbags running around and the idiots want to deport an 85 year old dog handler who probably lived a productive life and came here LEGALLY. No mention of suspicious post-war activity, right??
Leave him alone, guards/dog handlers were never high on the food chain anywhere. Just another nontroversy... A lot of those ex-german soldiers were instrumental in helping us in the cold war against a much greater evil - communism - which has butchered and enslaved many times the numbers tallied by the nazis.... and the numbers are still climbing for the communists.
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Unless there is evidence that he committed war crimes this sounds like a case of "guilty by association". Not exactly the standard of justice we should strive for in our societies. To my knowledge guarding prisoners is not a crime.
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Originally posted by Jaxxon
Paperwork filed by the Criminal Division’s Office of Special Investigations (OSI) and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) said Henss joined the Hitler Youth organization in Germany in 1934 as a 12 or 13-year-old boy and joined the Nazi Party in September 1940.
In early 1941, Henss volunteered to serve in the Waffen SS and became an SS dog handler in 1942 after serving in the elite Waffen SS combat unit “Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler."
No different from many other youngsters back then. Many who didn't join in the nazi regime's youth organizations were beat up and could been nothing but scum of the earth within the nazi society. For many it was easier to join than stay outside. Not only because of fear being outcasted, but because the organizations were built to attract youth. They were provided with activities and a feeling that they are important. They no longer had to hang around street corners wondering what to do without money.
Many of those who were part of the youth orgnizations have no regrets of it. It was fun times. The fun times didn't either mean beating up people.
Someone joining the Hitler Youth at a young age doesn't appeal to me as an actual fault. Does anyone actually think that people at the age of 13 would join the Hitler Youth with genuinely bad intentions? How could they have known what's ahead of them in the future? Besides that, the youth can be easily manipulated. The nazi regime acknowledged this and worked hard to manipulate the youth to follow their ideology.
Being in the Waffen-SS itself doesn't either make a man bad. Majority of the Waffen-SS fought at the frontline as an elite unit with better equipment and training than the regulars in Wehrmacht. Much like the elite units in the US armed forces. More skilled soldiers with higher morale. Just like in the Waffen-SS, also the US armed forces have their bad apples - Abu Ghraib, Gitmo...
The SS without the "waffen"... well, that's a whole another story.
So.. exactly what did this guy do different from the others, except he was ordered to be stationed at concentration camps - for mere 3 months in two different camps. All this only because he was at concentration camps for couple of months! Does this mean that even a soldier who simply transported a letter to a camp is a nazi war criminal?
This information alone isn't enough in my opinion to judge the man as a bad person. Besides, he has lived as a responsible member of a society since then, right? At least the article doesn't tell of any crimes by him since becoming a citizen.
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Exactly... probably some guy at the JDL whining like hell... sounds like the same dipstick wrote the statement that appeared in the article. All they needed to complete the way these are usually written is to claim that some survivor remembers him and claims they called him "Henss THE 'insert made-up name here'" (They gotta have THE something in the name like italian mobsters)
this is bs - hell no mention of a single thing he did in his life after 1945... 62 years... wonder what he really did with his life after age 24 when the war ended???
Look at the names on the statements of the government officials involved... Alice Fisher and Eli Rosenbaum... Think this guy has any chance??
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Screw him. Hang the scum........slowly.
Yea he had a choice and no he did not enter the country legaly. He concealed his true identity.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
He concealed his true identity.
As far as the article is concerned he didn't conceal his identity but his service record.
I'd be curious to know what kind of an application he had to fill up before becoming a US citizen. Was there a simple check box asking whether he participated in the nazi holocaust? If so, can 4 to 6 months service as a dog handler at a concentration camp be considered as participating in the holocaust?
As a follow up question: Why did he only serve 4 to 6 months at the concentration camps? Was he relocated by his own wish or was he needed somewhere else more? These are important questions to consider when judging the man and his motives.
He can't be judged solely based on his short service at two concentration camps during a war time.
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Out of a war that lasted from 1939 to 1945, he served 6 months total as a guard dog handler... the majority of the time he was a regular soldier
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Screw him. Hang the scum........slowly.
Yea he had a choice and no he did not enter the country legaly. He concealed his true identity.
I take it as secure info that he belonged to the Dachau guards that actually turned their heels and ran (replacing themselves with drafted troops or folkssturm that didn'd know squat about what was going on and spent a day or two there before Dachau belonged to the US troops, some of which (loosing their temper) gunned down the new guards by some dozens))
If he does, well, it's eventually payday. None of the manning crew of Dachau can claim that it was a nice place. Although, it was by far not one of the worst.
They did do some gas-chamber tests there BTW.
I have actually been there. Was baffling me how big it was, always imagined those camps smaller. Got baffled many times more in Auzchwitz though.
So much for Nazi freedom of speech :D
(:t evil mode off)
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Zero sympathy for him, after no one is going to brutalise him, starve him, set dogs on him, gas him and burn his body. All that will happen to him is that he be sent back to Germany and give up his cosy little life in America.
When you apply to visit the United States you are asked if you had any connection to Nazi party. I'm guessing he lied about that.
Despite the 'I was only obeying orders' excuse. Most Nazis believed they were doing the right thing even if they didn't like it much. On other thing to remember, even in the SS you could ask to be relieved of duties like that. They wouldn't shoot you for that. In fact many senior SS officers were worried about the psychological effect all this savagery would have on their men. You see they were quite 'civilised' really.
Save your sympathy for the victims.
Oh and by the way comparing Abu Ghraib and Gitmo with Nazi concentration camps is way out of order. Outrageous even.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Oh and by the way comparing Abu Ghraib and Gitmo with Nazi concentration camps is way out of order. Outrageous even.
Slighter wrong doesn't make right. If the actions at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo aren't condemned, then what is stopping from doing it more? Should those be left unchecked they will remain as the first step to wider practice of wrong doing.
It will be too late by the time you realise there are camps run by the US administration equal to Dacchau. That's why you should never forget. Nazis didn't come to commit the attrocities in one giant leap.
Most Nazis believed they were doing the right thing even if they didn't like it much. On other thing to remember, even in the SS you could ask to be relieved of duties like that.
What if he did so? I'd be curious to know exactly that why he only served for 4 to 6 months at the concentration camps.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
Out of a war that lasted from 1939 to 1945, he served 6 months total as a guard dog handler... the majority of the time he was a regular soldier
In Sachsenhausen they would set the dogs to tear up prisoners that lagged behind doing "runs". Lagging behind could be the ones falling out of a prisoner formation (who's food supply was running for months on 900 kcal's a day) making a marathon run (some 25 miles) through a track with different material, like poddles, gravel, sand, mud, concrete etc.
This was done for boot testing. Record breakers in holding out were captured members of the British Commandoes, which held out for 5 months doing this up to daily. Then they got executed. (they managed to kill one of the officers while at it).
Dogs...yes. Pets.
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This isn't about sympathy (or lack thereof). This is about justice by law and if we should jail (or hang) someone just because we don't like them (like the Nazis did). He has committed no crime that I can see.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
Leave him alone, guards/dog handlers were never high on the food chain anywhere.
I would think, the ones who were in the camp and only had contact with the gaurds, would disagree with you here. Although the high command made the decisions, many of the orders were carried out with much vigor and callousness by the lowly gaurds. To the detainees, the gaurds were the face and physical encarnation of Hitler's evil will. He should be shown the empathy he gave those in the camp.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
He should be shown the empathy he gave those in the camp.
Would you please tell me what HE did at the camps? Exactly that is the problem here; we don't know what he did at the camps. People are judging him without knowing the details. All we know so far is that he served 4 to 6 months as a dog handler, but people are making assumptions as far as letting his dogs tear apart prisoners.
While these scenarios may be valid those are still not factual.
This is why we, in the modern world, have laws and courts. Otherwise we'd be running amock and lynching people based on our assumptions. It's difficult to be sorry afterwards when it turns out a person was lynched without a cause.
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Originally posted by Viking
He has committed no crime that I can see.
Except helping keep control over those Jews that were being sent to the gas chamber or worked to death as slave labor.
ack-ack
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Just tell Mossad where he is, let them decide. If there's something to be done they'll take care of it and no one will be the wiser.
:cool:
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If it can be proven he committed a crime while doing his 'duty', then he should be prosecuted.
I'm sure he deserves all the empathy, understanding and sensitivity he gave those under his 'care'. However, I have a personal method when it comes to decision making. It's called the mirror test; if I can look myself in the mirror in the morning and honestly say my decision was right, then it is the right decision.
Gitmo is a little different to Nazi death camps. The US soldiers there, as far as I can see, can walk out at any stage. They could take my test and decide either way on a course of action - stay or resign.
The Nazi camp guards had little choice - although some enjoyed it a little more than others. If it can be proven that they exercised barbarity within their own executive power (i.e. without specific orders), they should hang. It really is that simple.
Individual 'creativity' in a death camp among the guards, should be punished, if proven.
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The guys here who are saying this guy had a choice have obviously never served a day in their life in any military service. He was a dog handler. It was his job. He was ordered to go work at the camps. You do not get your choice in assignment during a war. You are sent where you are needed.
This guy, as far as I can tell has done nothing wrong. He was ordered to work at the camp. He was ordered to train the other guards on how to handle the dogs and then he was ordered some where else. For most militarizes around the world failure to comply with orders given to you can result in imprisonment and, or, death.
It seems to me he is not a loyalist to the Nazi party. He came to America. He has lived in peace here for some time. He has been a productive member of society and it appears he has not committed any crimes since coming to America. Soldiers do what they have to in war. It is survival. Some times this means killing, hurting, burning down villages, ect, ect. I do not know any guys who can say they enjoy killing. However it is something that comes with the line of work we have chosen. Being a soldier is hard on many different levels. Doing things you do not like is one of the biggest parts of it.
I do not think this guy is guilty of anything other than being associated with the Nazi party though his military service. However as someone has already pointed out, being a dog handler beats the hell out of being on the eastern front any day of the week. Even so this guy doesn't seem to be an evil killer. I say let him be.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
The only problem I have with situations like this is the simple fact soldiers do as they are told. He was ordered to be stationed at that camp. He was ordered to guard it. He simply did as he was ordered. It is not as simple as saying "no" or "I won't" for him. He was a soldier, part of a military force. Unlike an officer of said force who makes decisions and orders for other troops. Officers are no doubt guilty, but a simple dog handler?
Now, if it comes out that he willingly participated in the killing of civilians while on duty there then that is a different story all together, but so far these self proclaimed Nazi hunters have not proved that. So far all they have brought to the table against this guy is that he was a guard and a dog handler there.
I have a buddy who is currently on duty at Gitmo. What happens to him if it is found that what they are doing there is against international law? Does his ordered presence there make him a war criminal? Of course not. He was/is simply doing as ordered. I am pretty sure this guy in the story is no different.
These groups make simple duty sound as if this guy was some sort of cruel ****** who loved his job. I would like to hear his side of things before I say hang the guy.
-Spot
Nope, sorry... he volunteered for this gig http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071001/us_nm/usa_crime_nazi_dc
Buh bye, byeeee... no simpathy. Everything comes full circle, eventually.
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I'm pretty sure you have to have pretty much bought-in to the Nazi viewpoint to join the SS. Only conscipts after 1943 were considered exempt from Nuremburg rulings that declared the Waffen-SS criminal.
This guy was in it from the start. Sounds like he enjoyed the lifestyle. And the cool looking caps with skulls on them...
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Originally posted by BBBB
The guys here who are saying this guy had a choice have obviously never served a day in their life in any military service. He was a dog handler. It was his job. He was ordered to go work at the camps. You do not get your choice in assignment during a war. You are sent where you are needed.
Maybe this will clear it up.
Henss joined the Hitler Youth organization in Germany in 1934 as a 12 or 13-year-old boy and joined the Nazi Party in September 1940. In early 1941, Henss volunteered to serve in the Waffen SS and became an SS dog handler in 1942 after serving in the elite Waffen SS combat unit “Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler.”
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Maybe this will clear it up.
And I cleared it up a bit before. Exactly this why 13 year olds aren't considered adults - they are ineligible to make decisions themselves. They can be too easily manipulated to make a decision.
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Exactly this why 13 year olds aren't considered adults - they are ineligible to make decisions themselves. They can be too easily manipulated to make a decision.
True. But he was a 20 year old man when he volunteered for the SS at a time when there was no conscription into that unit.
How do you explain that?
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Originally posted by Dowding
True. But he was a 20 year old man when he volunteered for the SS at a time when there was no conscription into that unit.
How do you explain that?
Let's see.. he lived 7 to 8 years under constant propaganda and everyone around him did the same thing. If 13 year old can be easily manipulated, I don't think a 20 year old is that much wiser yet. Often it's the lack of life experience and short sightedness. They don't think their life 5 years ahead, good if even a year ahead. Only difference is that 20 year old are expected to take responsibility. Doesn't quite work though - Every year many lose their life when doing something totally stupid without a thought of better.
Apparently he and many others have got wiser after the war.
Eitherway, volunteering for the Waffen-SS still doesn't make a person bad. Volunteering for the Allgemeine-SS would be something else. The problem is that the people can't see the difference between the two sections of SS.
Whilst the Waffen-SS, due to its close links to the Nazi party was declared a criminal organisation there exists very little evidence that the 900,000 men in it were organised to achieve war crimes. Most of the serious evidence concerns two particular formations the Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades. As is explained below their very nature and composition made them atypical of the Waffen-SS and therefore seen by those inside it as not part of it
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Originally posted by Fishu
Eitherway, volunteering for the Waffen-SS still doesn't make a person bad.
Volunteering for the Waffen SS combined with serving at a death camp won`t get him Boy scout of the year.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Let's see.. he lived 7 to 8 years under constant propaganda and everyone around him did the same thing. If 13 year old can be easily manipulated, I don't think a 20 year old is that much wiser yet. Often it's the lack of life experience and short sightedness. They don't think their life 5 years ahead, good if even a year ahead. Only difference is that 20 year old are expected to take responsibility. Doesn't quite work though - Every year many lose their life when doing something totally stupid without a thought of better.
Apparently he and many others have got wiser after the war.
Eitherway, volunteering for the Waffen-SS still doesn't make a person bad. Volunteering for the Allgemeine-SS would be something else. The problem is that the people can't see the difference between the two sections of SS.
everyone in this thread who being a kid in 1934 would more then likely joined the Hitler Youth. then when they got old enough to enlist would haved gone for the Waffen-SS because of the propaganda they endured every day. But in the US we are used to spielburgs propaganda where the only good German is a dead one, after all the best time to shoot them is when they surrender, but there are more important things to go after then some old guy who paying his taxes, learning english and doing something other then running a leafblower with his life then deporting him. Look at the names involved in the article. I though justice was supposed to be impartial.
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gee people, soon all the ex nazi camp guards will be dead from old age. then what will we do?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Volunteering for the Waffen SS combined with serving at a death camp won`t get him Boy scout of the year.
Like I've said, I want to know more details. I don't mind him serving in the Waffen-SS and I respect them as much as any other soldier. As long as they haven't committed war crimes - Which also includes the soldiers of other branches and countries.
Let me remind you that the US armed forces didn't either go without war crimes, even if they got out of it without a single conviction.
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Originally posted by john9001
gee people, soon all the ex nazi camp guards will be dead from old age. then what will we do?
Well i guess at that point the nazi hunter company will go out of business.
Isn't bombing known civilian areas just as bad as gassing people? I'm pretty sure all sides did that at one time or another.
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Stopped reading when you came to the part you liked Fishu?
Many formations within the Waffen-SS were found guilty of war crimes in all theatres they served; in the west the most infamous incidents included Wormhoudt, Le Paradis, Oradour-sur-Glane, Tulle, Marzabotto, murders of over 150 Canadian soldiers taken prisoner in the Battle of Normandy (see the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend article for details) and captured Americans in the Malmedy massacre. In the ten or so years after the war it became possible to re-examine the facts in a 'cooler' environment and in some cases reverse the imposed penalties. For example, Major-General Kurt Meyer's death sentence was commuted following a review by Canadian military officials, although his conviction for inciting his men to 'give no quarter' remained intact. In the east, many of the premier combat divisions within the Waffen SS were tainted by numerous accusations of battlefield and civilian atrocities.
The Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades (later to become the 36.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS and 29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr.1) respectively) were notorious for their reputation in the east. These formations, composed mostly of ex-Einsatzgruppen, released criminals and Russian Prisoners of War and commanded by the fanatical Nazis Oskar Dirlewanger Nicolaus Uhl and Bronislaw Kaminski, were engaged in numerous atrocities throughout their existence. After their actions in putting down the Warsaw Uprising, complaints from the Wehrmacht resulted in these units being dissolved and several members (including Kaminski) being tried and executed for their role in several incidents.
Similarly, the Waffen-Sturm-Brigade RONA had a combat record riddled with atrocities[citation needed] as well as abysmal conduct when faced with front line service.
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on the history channel I forget which show was some old geezer from the US Army blabbering about somthing then he said. "We captured a whole lot. one of them said to me the war is over for us and soon we shall be in the US with your girlfriends."then this old geezer said "needless to say that whole bunch did not get back to the transfer station. I do not know what happened to them WINK WINK. I though you old warcrime commiting POS.
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Since we're delving into this guys' history...what did he do after the 6 months' he spent at the camps? Where was he reposted? He might have seen what was going on there, and taken a reposting to the russian front, for all we know.
Too many are stuck on the part that he was a concentration-camp guard. That was for just a short stint. They'll need witnesses', or other physical evidence, that he physically turned the dog's loose on prisoners, before they can stick anything on him.
Now, the Justice Department might turn him over to someone like Isreal, where just the fact he was in German service during the Second world war will earn him a death sentence. But, that's still dependent on a U.S. court ruling, first.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Stopped reading when you came to the part you liked Fishu?
The key word here is 'organized'. The primary function of Waffen-SS was to fight the battles, not to slaughter people.
I'm sure you could find "many" formations of the US armed forces that have committed war crimes. In some occasions surrendered germans were gunned down, but the world only remembers the germans who gunned down PoW's.
The Dirlewanger and Kaminski brigades were totally filthy rats with no rival though. Not sure whether any soviet brigades could compare with them.
In the east, many of the premier combat divisions within the Waffen SS were tainted by numerous accusations of battlefield and civilian atrocitie
I don't know many armies which didn't commit attrocities against civilians, especially in the east. The double stantards are obvious - Germans are the bad guys who did all the bad and all the allies are saints who did no wrong.
These double stantards are the most apparent in the eastern front. The world talks of the german attrocities against civilians, but turns a blind eye to the soviet attrocities. There's not a word of the finnish villages that were wiped from the face of the earth along with their civilian habitants. I wonder how many german civilians faced this faith in the hands of the soviets. Killing of PoW's was an every day affair in the east and nobody knows for sure which side started it.
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Originally posted by Jaxxon
Paperwork filed by the Criminal Division’s Office of Special Investigations (OSI) and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) said Henss joined the Hitler Youth organization in Germany in 1934 as a 12 or 13-year-old boy and joined the Nazi Party in September 1940.
In early 1941, Henss volunteered to serve in the Waffen SS and became an SS dog handler in 1942 after serving in the elite Waffen SS combat unit “Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler.”
Investigators also said that Henss taught other concentration camp guards at Dachau and Buchwenwald how to use attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape.
I don't know, sounds like a willing participant to me.
Sorry, but Germany at that time was caught up in much like America is caught up today. He was a soldier that followed his orders and did his duty.
Because Germany lost, everything they did during the war was judged upon mainly because of the atrocities of the concentration camps. So being a SS officer in world war two was likely sought after just like a US soldier would want to become a Special Services soldier.
Being in the SS meant being the best of the best in their military. Hitler was a mad man and Germany followed him for what ever reason. I think it's pretty safe to say that in mass amounts, people are very easily led down that kind of path as long as it seems logical at the time.
Look how easily the US was led into war in Iraq because of the attacks on 9/11 which had nothing to do with Iraq. Still to this day I can not understand how people could support a war with a country that had nothing to do with it. Yet on this very board we have die hard supporters for the Iraq war that support it because they think it's part of the war on terrorism.
So now look back at Hitler and see how he used Jews as an example as for everything that was wrong with Germany and the world. Just like we have American citizens whom don't give a **** about the general population in Iraq or the harm that has come to them under our war. In Germany they had the same attitude toward the Jews.
This might piss people off but I don't care, because if you look close enough there are parallels to Nazi Germany and what goes on today in our supposed war on terror.
Sure we aren't setting up concentration camps and exterminating Muslims, but the general population in this country was mislead down the wrong path just the same as the Germans were in ww2. Luckily most of America has woken up and can see what is wrong in Iraq and why it was a wrong decision to go to war there. Sad to say it was a little late for the average Iraqi citizen.
Remember it's always the winners that write history. I say as long as the guy wasn't a high ranking officer then he was just doing his job, just like any other soldier would do. He just happened to be on the losing side the side which is judged.
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The difference is the Jews do not do anything worse then being whiny little bishes. While muslims suicide bomb our Trade Centers, trains, and buses.
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Originally posted by crockett
Even though this guy is 85 and Boooosh wasn't born yet when this happened, booosh was able to go back in time with doc emmit brown, and talk to him and tell him to commit attrocities. Being that he was just a normal guy, he ignored evil booosh, and came to america. Now Booosh is hitlers brother from another mother, but it's ok, because i don't like either of them and there the same.. yay!
Exactly! :aok
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Originally posted by crockett
Sure we aren't setting up concentration camps and exterminating Muslims, but the general population in this country was mislead down the wrong path just the same as the Germans were in ww2.
Turning a blind eye to the current wrong doings could very well lead to this scenario on a long run. However many seem to accept the wrong doings on the basis that the nazis were worse.
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Being in the SS meant being the best of the best in their military.
Really? I thought regular Heer troops were pretty derisory about SS troops. They often struggled to find decent weapons, especially in the early years, with the Wehrmacht point blank refusing to give them anything of theirs.
I'd say that was quite different from the relationship between Special Forces and regulars in modern armies.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
... I though you old warcrime commiting POS.
Yeah. That's what I thought when Chuck Yeager said on some Discovery show that he used to shoot German pilots hanging from their parachutes. It seems it actually was common in the USAAF.
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Deport him or hang him, he has yet to be punished for his war crimes like a toddler stealing candy bit by bit from a market.
He will NOT live as peacefully after this i guarentee you
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Originally posted by evenhaim
Deport him or hang him, he has yet to be punished for his war crimes like a toddler stealing candy bit by bit from a market.
He will NOT live as peacefully after this i guarentee you
Neither seems to have got away the next generation of germans who had nothing to do with the war. Apparently a few years ago built multi million euro monument for the holocaust was made of poor concrete and needs to be fixed. Of course there will be more millions to fix that, right?
....at who's expense? At the expense of the generation who had no dice in the holocaust.
We don't even fully know this guy's full story, but some are ready lynch him without a chance for a fair trial. and to think of it, we dare to call ourselves better than the dictators.
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Joining the Hitler youth means crap...At 12 years old in 1944, my girlfriends father was all but forced into joining the Hitler youth. If he didn't, his father would have lost his job, and he, no longer to continue his education. Because this guy joined the hitler youth as a pre teen means nothing in the collective light of this situation.
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Originally posted by BBBB
It seems to me he is not a loyalist to the Nazi party.
-Spot
He willingly joined the SS and to do so, you had to swear allegiance to Hitler. So, he was a willing goose-stepping Nazi.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Fishu
And I cleared it up a bit before. Exactly this why 13 year olds aren't considered adults - they are ineligible to make decisions themselves. They can be too easily manipulated to make a decision.
He wasn't 13 years old when he joined the SS nor was he 13 when he was a guard. Hope that clears it up a bit.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Fishu
The problem is that the people can't see the difference between the two sections of SS.
Considering both willingly massacred civilians and POWs en mass, is there really a difference?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
He wasn't 13 years old when he joined the SS nor was he 13 when he was a guard. Hope that clears it up a bit.
I don't want to repeat myself when I've already dealt this in a prior post.
Considering both willingly massacred civilians and POWs en mass, is there really a difference?
You of course know this without a doubt based on what information?
I could say the US soldiers and commanders at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and in couple of other cases willingly tortured and killed prisoners. Heck, I could also generalize it a bit more and based on their acts say the whole US army willingly tortures and kills people.
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Originally posted by Viking
This isn't about sympathy (or lack thereof). This is about justice by law and if we should jail (or hang) someone just because we don't like them (like the Nazis did). He has committed no crime that I can see.
Don't know about you, but if given the choice, I'd rather die a frozen death on the Eastern front than be party to this...he had a choice, he chose to do whatever he could to LIVE...at the expense of these poor sob's
(http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/images/photo24.jpg)
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Originally posted by bj229r
Don't know about you, but if given the choice, I'd rather die a frozen death on the Eastern front than be party to this...he had a choice, he chose to do whatever he could to LIVE...at the expense of these poor sob's
Let's see when your bellybutton is freezing for real under the hail of bullets and shrapnels. Easy to say from the comftyness of your home.
Only some people can say for certain what they would do in the grief circumstances of war - Most of these people have gained their knowledge through the very experience. For most parts you don't know how you will act in a desperate situation until you're there.
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Originally posted by Fishu
I don't want to repeat myself when I've already dealt this in a prior post.
You of course know this without a doubt based on what information?
I could say the US soldiers and commanders at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and in couple of other cases willingly tortured and killed prisoners. Heck, I could also generalize it a bit more and based on their acts say the whole US army willingly tortures and kills people.
and you know that he was innocent for a fact? from the info we have now he WAS a guard at a camp and a dog handler, these dog handlers were notorious for realesing thier dogs and prisoners who could do no better then run 3 feet and collapse of hunger. You wouldnt be wrong by saying america may have mis treated some prisoners but the reasons are 100% different. War= army v army./// Genocide= army v helpless civillians. If you have any opinions that differ please present them :)
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Originally posted by Fishu
I could say the US soldiers and commanders at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and in couple of other cases willingly tortured and killed prisoners.
There goes all your credibility; well, what little you had.
Abu Ghraib & Gitmo compare to Dachau?
YGBSM.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
and you know that he was innocent for a fact? from the info we have now he WAS a guard at a camp and a dog handler, these dog handlers were notorious for realesing thier dogs and prisoners who could do no better then run 3 feet and collapse of hunger. You wouldnt be wrong by saying america may have mis treated some prisoners but the reasons are 100% different. War= army v army./// Genocide= army v helpless civillians. If you have any opinions that differ please present them :)
I've never claimed I do know he was innocent. I've told people to not judge him with only the information available when they don't even know jack ***** of the history.
He could have done this and he could have done that, but he's innocent until proven guilty. That is how the civilized justice works. As far as I know, we're part of the civilized world. Let's not forget the very principles of democracy in the wake of emotions.
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Seems to me this is going off track a little. He's been arrested and faces deportation. He was a camp guard - there to train others in the use of dogs....he was there a short period then moved on......these appear to be facts (if the article is to be believed (i'm cynical about papers etc)).
I can see no mention that he actually released his dog onto prisoners, nor any mention that he killed/beat/starved any either - so this would appear to be speculation.
If he is guilty....punish him to the maximum extent - what was done at these camps was beyond evil - Nobody deserves to be treated that way!
If, however, proof cannot be found to show he did carry out any atrocities - he should be left alone.
So far, the argument that seems to be raging is a bit pointless, speculatory and inflammatory - carry on, I've got my popcorn and a nice coffee (cant drink at work ho hum).
Just my 2p's worth.......
Wurzel
*Edit - just to say, I'm not supporting either side of this one......just my opinion*
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Originally posted by Toad
There goes all your credibility; well, what little you had.
Abu Ghraib & Gitmo compare to Dachau?
I take it you didn't take the post lightly. That was the very point of the post, To make others realise that what ack-ack claimed is the same thing as if someone would claim the US army is willingly killing and torturing people.
Go read the post again, there reads very clearly "I could say...", which means I didn't go to claim anything. You failed to realise that from the harsh emotion you got from what you read.
Don't even try to make me believe that a near million soldiers willingly killed people.
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Even the conception of possibly using that comparison pretty much invalidates anything you might say.
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Originally posted by Tiger
I love the people who make it sound like he had a choice, sit at this camp with a gaurd dog, or be sent to the Eastern Front, those were probably his only two choices.
there was a third choice as well as a fourth
3- get shot
4 get interned yourself along with your family
But if what Jaxxo posted is true.
Thats a different story entirely
But to play devils advocate for a moment.
If given a choice between Joe Shmo
and #4
Guess who looses
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Originally posted by Toad
Even the conception of possibly using that comparison pretty much invalidates anything you might say.
Why isn't Ack-ack subjected to this? He didn't just possibly say it. A different subject, but same thing nonetheless.
Why shouldn't I have respect for the soldiers of other nationalities? Even that of the enemy? Soldiers, who have not committed war crimes, should be respected regardless of their nationality or stance towards you.
I find it to be of bad taste to badmouth the soldiers of the nazi germany when there's no ground for it. They might've fought for the wrong cause, but in the end they had a little choice and the most never committed any war crimes.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Would you please tell me what HE did at the camps?
Apparently he wouldn't let people escape from torture, murder, and starvation.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Apparently he wouldn't let people escape from torture, murder, and starvation.
How do you come to this conclusion? Have you seen a paper I haven't? Details! I wan't details! Where are the details!?
We know he was stationed at a concentration camp as a dog holder, but we do also know he was there to train the use of dogs. Nothing says he was there also to prevent people escaping from torture, murder and starvation. Even less the latter three things. It is also said he was a guard.. he could've guarded NCO's hut for all we know.
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Originally posted by bj229r
Don't know about you, but if given the choice, I'd rather die a frozen death on the Eastern front than be party to this...he had a choice, he chose to do whatever he could to LIVE...at the expense of these poor sob's
(http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/images/photo24.jpg)
Bottom line is nobody knows for certain what they would do when faced with a situation untill they are actually in it.
I walked into my dining room one time and all my sister in laws weretalking about someone who had cancer.
And each was going on about ifit ere them THEY woud do this or that.
Being one who has actually had it I laughed at em all and told them they were all full of crap and talking out of their arses. "Because untill you actually have it. you dont know what you would do."
Same thing holds true here
We would all like to think that we would do this or that under extreme circumstances.
But untill you are actually facing it.
You dont really know.
And you would be surprised at how ones perspective can change.
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How many Yanks here would continue to serve in silence while guarding an extermination camp in Iraq where thousands of Iraqis check in and disappear while the chimneys pour the smell of charred pork and black smoke into the sky?
How many?
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Originally posted by Fishu
I find it to be of bad taste to badmouth the soldiers of the nazi germany when there's no ground for it. They might've fought for the wrong cause, but in the end they had a little choice and the most never committed any war crimes.
Really? I find it in bad taste those that glorify the actions of murders or sugar coating their atrocities.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
We would all like to think that we would do this or that under extreme circumstances.
But untill you are actually facing it.
You dont really know.
And you would be surprised at how ones perspective can change.
i have to with dred on this one.
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Originally posted by Toad
How many Yanks here would continue to serve in silence while guarding an extermination camp in Iraq where thousands of Iraqis check in and disappear while the chimneys pour the smell of charred pork and black smoke into the sky?
How many?
Different set of circumstances.
Speaking out against your leadership might get you in trouble here.
Speaking out against your leadership in the German army during WWII could get you shot.
Or as I mentioned. Your family sent to a camp.
And what would the German soldier have to gain by speaking out?
For him there was no upside.
to answer your question
Given the same set of circumstances as the german soldier faced I dont think many would speak out now either. Out of fear
The difference is in our army is the potential reprecussions from speaking out are slightly less severe.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
So in other words, if it was you, you'd jump at the chance to transfer from the front line so you can be a concentration camp guard and do your part in committing genocide?
Who knows, I haven't been to the situation. Currently I'd probably rather run away at the first hint of an upcoming war. However, I can't even say that for sure.
I do know that I would not "do my part in committing genocide" in the meaning of a willing participant. Do my part to save my bellybutton maybe, or I could find it too disgusting and think less of my ass. Knowing how you react when seeing lots of people being killed is one of those things you don't usually know before hand (unless you're a diagnosed psychopath).
I just wouldn't be willing to judge people just for being a guard at a concentration camp. What they did as a guard and under what circumstances is what matters more to me. It also does a difference to the prisoners; One guard can be a real ***** to the prisoners while an another guard leaves them alone.
At the point when there are concentration camps it's too late to blame everyone who becomes a guard. There will be guards even if they have to be kept there at a gun point.
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Let him stay free, do nothing about it.
If the Israelis get him, they get him.
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:aok DRED, history has shown that you can make a man do many evil things if you threaten his life, and do even more evil things when his families life is threatened.
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Originally posted by Toad
How many Yanks here would continue to serve in silence while guarding an extermination camp in Iraq where thousands of Iraqis check in and disappear while the chimneys pour the smell of charred pork and black smoke into the sky?
How many?
You got the point too well: I didn't go to claim what you're so badly upset about. Get over it.
To make it clear, the point here was that it's easy to badmouth the former enemy without grounds for it, but hard to ignore it when thrown at you of your countrymen.
Respect goes both ways.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Really? I find it in bad taste those that glorify the actions of murders or sugar coating their atrocities.
ack-ack
Ahh but not all actions by German soldiers were any more murderous then we ourselves did in combat.
And atrocities are commited on both side during combat.
THAT is if you are referring to the geman soldier as a whole and not only singling out those that were directly responcable or had direct personal actions at the camps.
You speak of glorifying the actions of murderers and sugar coating their atocities.
What of our own General Sherman? Whom by almost anyones standard could (and probably should) be reguarded as a war criminal.
Or any of probably hundreds of peoples throughout history.
The only difference between any of them. and the Germans (other then the obvious numbers involved) is that WWII is the most recent
As far as those directly involved the the extermination attept. Im all with you.
But I cannot apply that same standard to the german soldiers in their entirety
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Really? I find it in bad taste those that glorify the actions of murders or sugar coating their atrocities.
Who here has glorified anything?
I'm not the one blinded by 65 years old propaganda in which germans are portrayed as brutal barbarians incapable to act honorably.
Hell, germans burned down to ground everything in lapland while retreating. All for a revenge. I'm not bitter at the german soldiers who were there to do it, neither were mpst the veterans who were there. The soldiers were told to burn down everything and that's end of the discussion. Of course they could object and get shot - The lapland would have burned regardless.
There were germans who never had to worry of anything else but to fight a war like a soldier does and those germans who were forced to do unpleasant things. Then there were those who wanted to do things unpleasant to others - They should burn in hell.
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Unlike some of my fellow Yank posters, I DO know what I would do. At whatever cost. You're the Captain of your Ship and the Captain of your Soul.
Equivocate all you like.
You can be a part of mass murder, however small, or you can walk away. It's all about choice.
As for respect for any Nazi, I'm seriously lacking. In fact, I'm totally out. I won't be getting any more in, I never stocked any.
And for the Putzes that try to compare Iraq and WW2, I suggest they look at purpose and result. Does anyone think that when the Nazis went into France and deposed the government that their intent was to hold free elections, get a new government on its feet and then get out as quickly as possible?
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ahh but not all actions by German soldiers were any more murderous then we ourselves did in combat.
And atrocities are commited on both side during combat.
THAT is if you are referring to the geman soldier as a whole and not only singling out those that were directly responcable or had direct personal actions at the camps.
You speak of glorifying the actions of murderers and sugar coating their atocities.
What of our own General Sherman? Whom by almost anyones standard could (and probably should) be reguarded as a war criminal.
Or any of probably hundreds of peoples throughout history.
The only difference between any of them. and the Germans (other then the obvious numbers involved) is that WWII is the most recent
As far as those directly involved the the extermination attept. Im all with you.
But I cannot apply that same standard to the german soldiers in their entirety
My comment is in reference to any of the SS units.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
My comment is in reference to any of the SS units.
Which of the majority were soldiers in the Waffen-SS with no part in war crimes. That's nearly a million soldiers, a huge part of the whole german armed forces in the WWII.
You're blinded by your emotions and false knowledge. Please, study the history a bit more and then come back.
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Originally posted by Toad
You can be a part of mass murder, however small, or you can walk away. It's all about choice.
I'd like to see you to go tell that to the german veterans :rofl
By that definition every german who lived in WWII were mass murderers. Great!
Soldiers at the frontline made it possible for Hitler to murder people as long as he did and same goes for the civilians who worked to keep the war machine running in factories and farms.
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I always find it odd that on this board, it's always the Europeans and Scandinavians that find the strength to be objective in matters like these, especially when it comes to former nazis and warcrimes, and the Arab Israeli conflict in general.
Americans generally react from the gut, with anger and resolve against the Nazis/Terrorists, while our friends from across the ocean paint the German Patriot, Zionist/Muslim problem in a whole different light.
Must be the textbooks.
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Or the fact that they started two world wars that eventually engulfed us.
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So you think this guy had no idea what was going on at Dachau? He could never figure out what that smell was coming from the crematories? He saw thousands arrive but none ever leave yet the camp could always hold more?
Up close and personal, he was there and was a part of it.
I'd have walked away. Would you?
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Originally posted by Toad
So you think this guy had no idea what was going on at Dachau? He could never figure out what that smell was coming from the crematories? He saw thousands arrive but none ever leave yet the camp could always hold more?
Up close and personal, he was there and was a part of it.
I'd have walked away. Would you?
And you would have received a nice bullet to the head and would have been buried in a shallow grave outside of the concentration camp.
Just sayin
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And you think that is the worst thing that could happen to a person?
You think that prolonging your life is worth voluntary participation in the worst sort of atrocities?
You'd sell your soul for another day? Would you kill your mother in cold blood at the government's order for just one more day of life? Your neighbor? A stranger on the street? A thousand strangers on the street?
Is that what you're saying when you are just saying?
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Toad I have all the respect in the world for you but c'mon. You'd just up and walk away if:
a.) You were a 13 year old boy who joined the Hitler Youth because it was the patriotic thing to do and actually a goal?
b.) You were fed propaganda for 5 years explaining why the Jews are the cause of all your problems starting when you're thirteen years old. A 13 year old mind against the Nazi propaganda machine isn't even in the neighborhood of a fair fight. The undying loyalty to the Reich and Furhor built into their heads for all those years isn't a choice they made because they thought one day it is a good idea to kill Jews. It was fed to them by the real evil bastards who manipulated these kids into doing their dirty work for them (something that repeats itself throughout history...)
You'd walk out on the same guys you grew up with in the Hitler Youth and the SS? These guys were soldiers. Bound by duty and honor despite the fact they were forced to do some of the most horrendous things bestowed on man by another. You'd walk out on your squadron bros? You'd somehow be able to walk away despite the years of propaganda being fed to you, the pressure of standing with your bros and the fact that if you just up and walked away you'd probably catch a bullet in the back from someome smart enough to know that you're a liability?
Those kids were taken advantage of. I left the boyscouts when my local leader reminded me of David Koresh and religion overcame the cool stuff we did like camping, fishing and orienteering. Had I been in the Hitler Youth in the spring of 1939 I wouldn't have had the freedom to do that in pre war Nazi Germany. I sure as hell wouldn't have had the freedom to do that with a war on being branded a traitor and executed. The laws of self preservation dictate that between go along and get along or eating a bullet what you'd do. The real caveat about all of this is had I or any of us been a 13 year old boy in 1930's Germany with the opportunity to join the Hitler Youth and eventually the Waffen SS...we would have done it.
To say you wouldn't is standing a little high on your horse because you were not faced with the situation, you were not put into his shoes and in the end you didn't have to make the decisions he made.
In my mind he's a soldier. He didn't come up with the idea of death camp, he was ordered to train dogs to guard them. He appears to have carried out his orders. More than 60 years have passed and now he's an old man. If he did anything that weighed against his conscience for all this time then he's carried those images with him every day of his life since. If he's a religious man then regardless of who thinks what constitutes justice he's going to face his judgement sooner rather than later. He'll have a long time to burn in hell without all the hoopla of residents of a different time and a different world thumping their chests about what they'd do when it comes to riding the moral high road.
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Long before I was 13 my parents and my religion had ingrained me with the wild and crazy idea that mass murder was something in which I shouldn't voluntarily participate.
How about yours?
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We would all like to think that we would do this or that under extreme circumstances. But untill you are actually facing it. You don't really know.
And you would be surprised at how ones perspective can change.
And you would have received a nice bullet to the head and would have been buried in a shallow grave outside of the concentration camp.
Just sayin
So you would shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them to save your measly life? I don't have to think for a second what my choice would have been
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Well said Golfer.:aok
No bj229er thats not what I'm saying (I do find it funny that you and Toad jump to those conclusions tho), what I'm saying is that it's very hard to speculate on what you would do when you have never been put into that situation (not to meantion the years of propiganda before hand).
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Originally posted by Toad
Long before I was 13 my parents and my religion had ingrained me with the wild and crazy idea that mass murder was something in which I shouldn't voluntarily participate.
How about yours?
I can't say the topic ever specifically came up.
As it happens we're not particularly religious. We never attendend church on an ordinary Sunday. I go to churches for funerals and weddings. My own thoughts on religion and the bible are just those. I'm not going to spew them about and try to make others share my view (which is exactly what starts fights and wars.)
I wasn't raised in a depressed pre-WWII Germany though. Neither were you.
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He did what he thought was the patriotic thing to do for his country at the time.
Soldiers just follow orders....
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I've decided to just stay out of this one.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I've decided to just stay out of this one.
wise choice bud :)
im watching what poeple where saying and as different as i may feel im not posting due to my strong personal bias
:(
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Originally posted by Gryphons
Well said Golfer.:aok
No bj229er thats not what I'm saying (I do find it funny that you and Toad jump to those conclusions tho), what I'm saying is that it's very hard to speculate on what you would do when you have never been put into that situation (not to meantion the years of propiganda before hand).
Welll...one MIGHT conclude that's because it IS what you said, intent aside;)
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Nope, if you'll re-read the quote that you posted what I said was that you would be shot if you walked away, simple fact. At no point in my post did I say I would have taken part, you are putting words into my mouth. I'm just trying to help people see both side of the story. Your lack of comprehension does make me laugh tho.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
He did what he thought was the patriotic thing to do for his country at the time.
Soldiers just follow orders....
An oldie but goodie. The last refuge of a war criminal.
That final phrase is such a cliche that reading it actually creates a type of stench I'd have trouble describing without breaking some rule of this forum.
I wonder how many of those patriotic heroes prefaced their 'I was just following orders' bit with actual remorse.
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http://news.ewoss.com/articles/D8S0LVPG0.aspx
another news article about Paul Henss
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
http://news.ewoss.com/articles/D8S0LVPG0.aspx
another news article about Paul Henss
"I didn't commit no crimes," Henss said in a thick German accent. "I didn't hurt nobody. Otherwise I wouldn't have come to the United States."
At least it would have been very stupid to move to the USA as a war criminal that could be prosecuted for war crimes. In the middle of the all powerful jewish organizations.
-- Henss said he never set foot inside Dachau or Buchenwald and never used attack dogs on prisoners in concentration camps.
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Well if he said so, it must be true.
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Henss is hard of hearing, has had some heart problems and uses a walker.
"We couldn't even imagine that Mr. Henss could do that," said Nuzzu Syed, who lives two doors down. "They're such a nice, elderly couple."
He called the Holocaust "a catastrophe" and said: "Everybody in Germany knows that wasn't right."
more quotes from the article
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lol thats it im getting more involved...
Example: A man is charged with killing a family in 1950 the children of the family go ahead and press charges. The man said i didnt do it and there is no physical evidence since it was so long ago. Would you believe him?
Well thats what you just did :|
Bob you do not know HOW MUCH I AGREE WITH YOU , that bs statement has been spewed by every war criminal ever.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
more quotes from the article
wes you are young and you are gulliable dont believe everything you read on the internet .
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I love these guys saying that it's just impossible for the average guy to decide if mass murdering thousands of civilians in gas chambers and burning their bodies in crematories is good or bad.
It's such a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
Killing tens of thousands of people.... good or bad and who are you to decide anyway, bud? On the next Jerry Springer!
I also note that none of you seem to be able to decide if you would participate in the very worst of atrocities to prolong your own life.
Says quite a bit, I think, of the (lack of) moral fiber in the US today.
I think our fathers and grandfathers that fought that war would be ashamed if they read this thread. And probably angry.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
wes you are young and you are gulliable dont believe everything you read on the internet .
:huh :confused:I'm not wes
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Originally posted by Neubob
Well if he said so, it must be true.
The point being that the nazi hunters doesn't have any better against him either. They keep generalizing the situation to emotionally affect the people reading news. He was a dog holder and they go on about the dogs tearing people apart... but we don't know did he do that.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
:huh :confused:I'm not wes
:eek: my bad i saw the 14 and thought wes :D
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Originally posted by evenhaim
Bob you do not know HOW MUCH I AGREE WITH YOU , that bs statement has been spewed by every war criminal ever.
How would you defend yourself if someone would come to accuse you of things you didn't do? They got a paper proving you were there at the time of the crime, but they don't have anything to prove you as the criminal. In the media they keep sharing their view of the case and while speaking of horrifying things that were done at the crime scene they keep constantly mentioning your name. You'd be definitely guilty in the eyes of the general public until proven not guilty; Even then you'd be viewed as nothing more than an another O.J Simpson - a person who got away with a crime.
We don't know which side here is speaking the truth. The nazi hunters are extremely biased and as merciless as the nazis were. The other side is a person who might been or might not been a war criminal. The nazi hunters couldn't care less of what he did now that they've found out he's been for a short while at a concentration camp and lives at their backyard.
The justice is (should be) blind.
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He hid his wartime activities when he moved to the United States in 1955, the Justice Department said, making him eligible for deportation now. A date for a deportation hearing has not yet been set.
Well, I'm sure that Paul Henss was really a better man than Oskar Schindler and so should be honored for his SS service. Who knows how many concentration camp inmates he really saved? Bless him.
But... he still lied to get into the US which is punishable by deportation.
End of story.
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Originally posted by Fishu
The point being that the nazi hunters doesn't have any better against him either. They keep generalizing the situation to emotionally affect the people reading news. He was a dog holder and they go on about the dogs tearing people apart... but we don't know did he do that.
I guess you just really want him to be innocent, where as I just really want everyone who remains guilty to pay and pay dearly.
The two viewpoints don't necessarily need to be incompatible, but often are.
He's had a good long life since 1945--which is much more than a vast majority of the thousands that were shuffled into the facility where this man either did or did not participate in systematic torture and extermination of fellow Germans as well as kidnapped foreign nationals.
When I see his face now, I see their past misery, not his current misery. And the fact that he has escaped justice--be it simply for fear of an impartial jury--does not make his case a sympathetic one in my eyes.
Had his hunters been 1/10 as thorough and ruthless as his employers, this man wouldn't have lived to grow his first gray hair.
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Originally posted by Neubob
I guess you just really want him to be innocent, where as I just really want everyone who remains guilty to pay and pay dearly.
The two viewpoints don't necessarily need to be incompatible, but often are.
He's had a good long life since 1945--which is much more than a vast majority of the thousands that were shuffled into the facility where this man either did or did not participate in systematic torture and extermination of fellow Germans as well as kidnapped foreign nationals.
When I see his face now, I see their past misery, not his current misery. And the fact that he has escaped justice--be it simply for fear of an impartial jury--does not make his case a sympathetic one in my eyes.
Had his hunters been 1/10 as thorough and ruthless as his employers, this man wouldn't have lived to grow his first gray hair.
Bravo well said toad and neubob
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Originally posted by Toad
But... he still lied to get into the US which is punishable by deportation.
As sad as it can be after all the years, if he's innocent (if he's guilty of war crimes then it isn't that sad at all), that is the case and he could be deported. That is the law and he most likely knew they don't accept people into the USA who were involved in the nazi regime.
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As another poster said I'd like to see the forums he had to fill out upon entering the country in 1955 before I decided weather or not he actually "hid" his service record. None of the articles I've read have given enough evidence that he hid his service record. Tho if it turns out he did than it's a different story.
And for the record I'm not anti-semitic, nor do I support any of the atrocities committed during the holocaust.
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Originally posted by Gryphons
As another poster said I'd like to see the forums he had to fill out upon entering the country in 1955 before I decided weather or not he actually "hid" his service record. None of the articles I've read have given enough evidence that he hid his service record. Tho if it turns out he did than it's a different story.
And for the record I'm not anti-semitic, nor do I support any of the atrocities committed during the holocaust.
no one siad you were :) poeple have different opinions thats whats great about the oclub :)
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From 1942 to 1944 Henss served as a guard at the Dachau and Buchenwald concentration camps, where he instructed other guards in the use of trained attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape, authorities said.
He hid his wartime activities when he moved to the United States in 1955, the Justice Department said, making him eligible for deportation now. A date for a deportation hearing has not yet been set.
Of course, the Justice Department could just be making it all up. Maybe he wrote a book about training dogs to assist in mass murder and gave it to his original immigration officer. That's gotta be where this slip-up started.
From another site about these deportations:
They entered the United States illegally after the World War II -- illegally, because they claimed on their immigration forms that they were not collaborators with the Nazi regime during the war.
It would seem logical to me that there was at least one question about what they did in the war on the form.
So if they produce this 60 year old form and it shows he lied.... how will you all excuse it then? Because I am certain you apologists will defend this man forever.
Yuck.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Let him stay free, do nothing about it.
If the Israelis get him, they get him.
NS :)
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Originally posted by Neubob
I guess you just really want him to be innocent, where as I just really want everyone who remains guilty to pay and pay dearly.
I'd rather have more solid proof than just anecdoctal evidence and mass hysteria to judge the man. I'm tired of hearing generalizations of the SS men. It's a magic word that somehow makes everyone evil who were involved with it. People thinks the SS is the same and only thing, when in fact majority were normal soldiers who had as much to do with war crimes as a typical john doe of the US army.
There was a finnish Waffen-SS unit fightning against the russians at the frontline like any other finnish soldier in the finnish army. I'm tired of those who are disrespectful towards these men who fought for their country even if under different uniform. The disrespectful people do not see beyond the "SS", that's all they need and they react to it emotionally without a hint of rational thought. They were one part of the Waffen-SS, not an exception.
It was a war and we can't punish everyone who's done something morally or legally wrong. We, finns, tried that after a civil war, but it didn't turn out to be such a good idea; Executing all the reds wouldn't have been in the best interest of anyone.
Efforts must be concentrated against those who were war criminals with a possibility to choose otherwise and continued to commit war crimes. Otherwise we can just as well hunt down all the german soldiers who fought at the eastern front, because they most likely at some point were involved in a war crime either directly or indirectly (ie. their platoon killed a group of surrendered soldiers).
He's had a good long life since 1945--which is much more than a vast majority of the thousands that were shuffled into the facility where this man either did or did not participate in systematic torture and extermination of fellow Germans as well as kidnapped foreign nationals.
when I see his face now, I see their past misery, not his current misery. And the fact that he has escaped justice--be it simply for fear of an impartial jury--does not make his case a sympathetic one in my eyes.
The deaths are very saddening indeed. Thousands of albanians were murdered, but waste majority of the serbians involved in it are never going to be prosecuted for those deaths, even if some of them shot a couple themselves. The attention is on the officers and leaders who were ultimately responsible for giving the orders. Many of those who will certainly never going to be prosecuted for participating in the serbian attrocities are going to live a comfortable life, unlike the dead albanians and relatives who lost one of their own.
It's probably better this way than the alternative.
Had his hunters been 1/10 as thorough and ruthless as his employers, this man wouldn't have lived to grow his first gray hair.
They would have been had they not located him from the USA.
All in all, war is a dirty business and there's no good guys out there. It's a matter of who steps beyond the line.
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Hmmm, interesting Toad. But the way you make it sound the pilots who flew for the Luftwaffe are Nazi collaborators, yet the pilots are famous, many have had books published and are available for purchase in the U.S. In fact if you met one you would probably want to talk to him. Yet you want to condemn this man who trained dogs for the Nazi party. Training of attack dogs is standard practice in all armies. And how do you know that this man has not felt a great deal of remorse for what happened in the war. He has had over 60 years to think about it. Did you even consider the fact that maybe he wanted out of Germany because of the horrible memories he must have. Then again he may have left because he was scared of being convicted for war crimes. All I'm saying is that I'm not going to base my judgments on the man based on some internet articles. But you have the right to form your own opinions.
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Originally posted by Toad
And you think that is the worst thing that could happen to a person?
You think that prolonging your life is worth voluntary participation in the worst sort of atrocities?
You'd sell your soul for another day? Would you kill your mother in cold blood at the government's order for just one more day of life? Your neighbor? A stranger on the street? A thousand strangers on the street?
Is that what you're saying when you are just saying?
To answer your question honestly for me I dont know.
I'd actually have ot be in that situation to find out. As would you.
Since your still here I can only imagine that you;'ve never had a gun to you or your families head to do it or die so..
My mother or family probably not. And again I think most people would be the same way when it came to their immediate family
Neighbor? Stranger on the street?
I think the vast majority of people would indeed do exactly that. "Sell their soul" as you put it.
I beleive that because it is historically what people have done.
You see alot more people willing to do that then to walk away or speak out against it.
One just needs to look at places like Nazi Germany,
Iraq under the Saddam Regeim.
Soviet Union.
Or we can look even to our own streets of NYC, LA or any of a dozen places to where where there have been plenty of incidents where people would rather say nothing then get involved to stop it.
Historically people will do anything to save their own neck. Even if only for a day.
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Originally posted by Toad
I love these guys saying that it's just impossible for the average guy to decide if mass murdering thousands of civilians in gas chambers and burning their bodies in crematories is good or bad.
It's such a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
Killing tens of thousands of people.... good or bad and who are you to decide anyway, bud? On the next Jerry Springer!
I also note that none of you seem to be able to decide if you would participate in the very worst of atrocities to prolong your own life.
Says quite a bit, I think, of the (lack of) moral fiber in the US today.
I think our fathers and grandfathers that fought that war would be ashamed if they read this thread. And probably angry.
I think we all know its bad.
I havent seen a single person say otherwise.
And Nobody can decide if they would or not because they have never been in that situation.
Nor have you.
I love these guys that can say definitively what they would do in a given situation when they've never been there.
Like I said of the cancer before. Unless you actually HAVE been there. You dont know. I dont care what anyone says to the contrary.
You dont know.
To say otherwise is a load of crap.
We all like to beleive that we know. We all would like to beleive that the best of humanity would come out in all of us.
But the barebones truth is untill we are in a situation. We dont know.
And survival is a powerful insinct.
We , as a species tend to cling to it even if it is at the expence of others.
When faced with possible death. The instinct is to live at all costs.
Even if it means others must die.
Most people well before they are 12-13 are conditioned by their parents to beleive that killing is wrong.
Still hasnt quite stopped all the killing though has it?
Our own military tends to be able to retrain soldiers minds to they can kill, on orders.
And what is war but murder on a grand scale to acheive political or social aims?
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Like I said Fishu, I think you just really want him to be innocent... Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.
I just really really want those that remain to pay--and not to the American authorities, but to the proper Nazi hunters... Nothing wrong with that either.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Like I said Fishu, I think you just really want him to be innocent... Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.
I just really really want those that remain to pay--and not to the American authorities, but to the proper Nazi hunters... Nothing wrong with that either.
To get more back on topic and away from the hypothetical.
As I have stated before. If he indeed volounteered to this service. Then yes. he should be tried like the rest.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
To get more back on topic and away from the hypothetical.
As I have stated before. If he indeed volounteered to this service. Then yes. he should be tried like the rest.
Hey!
Did you just hijack a digression?
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Originally posted by Neubob
Like I said Fishu, I think you just really want him to be innocent... Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.
I just really really want those that remain to pay--and not to the American authorities, but to the proper Nazi hunters... Nothing wrong with that either.
True, Neubob, but...If he's not given the full measure of justice, if he's simply deported, without any real evidence tying him to crimes he himself commited, then we establish a precedent that could be used against our own people.
I'm sure there will be more about this story in the days to come. This BBS took off on an emotional roller-coaster with only half the story told. He might honestly be guilty of these crimes; He might not. We don't know(yet) since this only broke recently.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Like I said Fishu, I think you just really want him to be innocent... Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.
I don't know what counts for "really wanting to be innocent". It just doesn't fit to describe my intentions. It's very sad to see people so willingly to lynch a 85-year old person without a second thought, only because back then a part of his organization threw people into concentration camps and killed them at will. Now some of us are prepared to do the same to him simply based on anecdoctal evidence.
Such mentality should not be part of the modern democracy. We think of ourselves civilized and value the justice system of our democracies, different from the horrible totalitarian systems, but in the blink of an eye we turn to a hysterical mass of people ready to lynch a person who was pointed out as a criminal by an organization with an ideology of their own. All that was needed was a piece of paper stating a person was listed as working at a concentration camp as part of Waffen-SS.
The SS is a magic word that makes the whole world turn around and people to forget the very principles we believe in. Injustice, which from we try to protect our society, becomes a part of us. Even Hitler himself should be given a fair trial, even though the end result would be obvious. That's how the democracy is meant to work, otherwise we will be no better than the one we're about to lynch.
This guy too deserves a fair trial and we should not jump to the conclusion without further knowledge of the scale of his involvement. The label SS is not a proof of guilt. Should he be a war criminal then let the court deal with him and let his soul burn in the hell for an eternity. In the case he's not a war criminal we owe him an apology.
It's easy to convict a person, but harder to undo it.
I just really really want those that remain to pay--and not to the American authorities, but to the proper Nazi hunters... Nothing wrong with that either.
I too want them to pay dearly, but only for the crimes they did. Although not in the hands of the nazi hunters, because they're not much better than Gestapo. We're no better if we do what we tell the others not to do.
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Originally posted by Fishu
The SS without the "waffen"... well, that's a whole another story.
No it isn't - the waffen SS administered and guarded all concentration camps. If you believe that the waffen SS weren't SS, you are deluding yourself.
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Originally posted by AKH
No it isn't - the waffen SS administered and guarded all concentration camps. If you believe that the waffen SS weren't SS, you are deluding yourself.
I've said that majority of Waffen-SS didn't have part in it. Isn't that sufficient to say? They had about a million members, far more than they ever needed to guard the concentration camps. The other branches of SS were much worse in general and with their priorities.
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Originally posted by Fishu
I too want them to pay dearly, but only for the crimes they did. Although not in the hands of the nazi hunters, because they're not much better than Gestapo. We're no better if we do what we tell the others not to do.
So long as these Nazi hunters are hunting Nazis, I frankly don't care if they microwave them. If the nazi hunters were anything like these fascist organizations you keep comparing them too, then much, if not most of Germany would have been de-populated by the end of the 40s. They are a scalpel to the Gestapo's hammer.
No, I do not want the innocent to suffer. If this man is innocent, he should be allowed to remain unharmed. I simply do not default to a sympathetic stance whenever such men are mentioned in the press. We live under the doctrine of innocent until proven guilty, and this is a good thing, and should stay this way. That being said, I very much doubt, through all my ignorance and stupidity, that anyone who ever started off in the Hitler Youth, wore the SS emblem through to his mid-20s, and then subsequently fled to a country where he knew he'd be harder to find, can ever be among the innocent. If I pre-judge then I beg your pardon. But then again my opinion is only an opinion. I do not hold a rifle to this man's chest, nor a snapping dog on a leash.
I honestly hope that he didn't kill or torture anyone, because if he did, he's already lived way, way too long, breathed far too much oxygen that would have been better spent on others, and shared too many happy moments for justice to ever be served.
I'm pretty sure that until new evidence is presented, this thread has run its course. It will undoubtedly continue with numerous accusations being leveled, against Henss as well as against fellow board members for feeling either one way or another about it, but will do so without me.
I should have known to stay out the moment I read an earlier post where some nameless fool posted the names of the people on the government statement, eluded to their Jewishness, and then said 'what chance does he have?'
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Originally posted by Toad
I think our fathers and grandfathers that fought that war would be ashamed if they read this thread. And probably angry.
True. I also know two of the sons that`s not too thrilled .
One thing about it, if they drag this out it will be dealt with by the masters of the double tap without a doubt.
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Make him live the last years of his life as those that he guarded...with a dog looking over his every move.
Build huge gas showers and ovens within his eyesight and let him remember.
Cold, little or no food, hard work and maybe toss a few corpse around him to make him comfy.
Let him soak in guilt.
Let that pain eat him to death.
Mac
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Originally posted by Fishu
Which of the majority were soldiers in the Waffen-SS with no part in war crimes.
They swore personal alliagence to Hitler and fought for his ideals and the spread of National Socialism throughout the world. For that fact alone, they deserve all the contempt we can muster.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
They swore personal alliagence to Hitler and fought for his ideals and the spread of National Socialism throughout the world. For that fact alone, they deserve all the contempt we can muster.
ack-ack
Well unless he could tell the future his "Sworn alliagence" to Hitler was just a requirement of duty more than an oath in blood. Just like our US military requires recruits to take an oath. I am pretty sure at the time he was taking his Oath he had no idea what was really going on.
I am not saying this guy is innocent. However, I am not ready to light the torches and go kicking some guys door in because some Jewish organization wants to in-act a little revenge. At this point, this whole situation seems to be the effects of some overzealous Nazi hunters, more so then facts. It seems to me at this point, this group has looked at his military record and they have connected the dots to a puzzle that does not exists. I want facts. So far all I have heard and saw have been speculation.
-Spot
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Originally posted by Gryphons
Nope, if you'll re-read the quote that you posted what I said was that you would be shot if you walked away, simple fact. At no point in my post did I say I would have taken part, you are putting words into my mouth. I'm just trying to help people see both side of the story. Your lack of comprehension does make me laugh tho.
And what I have said TWICE is that given the ONLY two options, dying is preferable.
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Originally posted by Viking
This isn't about sympathy (or lack thereof). This is about justice by law and if we should jail (or hang) someone just because we don't like them (like the Nazis did). He has committed no crime that I can see.
Will be hard to find evidence now I guess. Could be looked into and ask some questions. Did he feed the dogs, and with what?
The dog guys were certainly not popular in the camps, but again, there were 2 functions, - escape guards and terror guards....
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Leave the old man alone.
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2nd that Dano.
Interesting thread though.
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Originally posted by Gryphons
In fact if you met one you would probably want to talk to him.
I used to participate in airshows featuring WW2 aircraft and pilots. I have spoken to many Allied vets. I have had the chance to speak to Axis vets and passed on it. Didn't bother to attend their talks, either.
Am I close-minded on this? Yep.
Not one but TWO world wars; I guess I'm just not as sympathetic to those who would conquer the world as you folks are. I don't want to understand them, I don't want to commiserate with them, I don't want to honor them in any away. I want them to be seen for what they were: an abomination and an embarassment to humanity.
But hey... glorify them and understand them all you like. Forgive them, even. Perhaps someone watching will learn from that and think any behavior is fine because eventually you will be understood and forgiven. Perhaps that someone will someday try to emulate them.
I can see that in 50 years or so, Osama Bin and Mohammed Atta will be "understood" and forgiven as well. Heck, they already are in some circles.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I think the vast majority of people would indeed do exactly that. "Sell their soul" as you put it.
I beleive that because it is historically what people have done.
You see alot more people willing to do that then to walk away or speak out against it.
Perhaps it's because people see that they will eventually be forgiven for selling their soul as is evidenced in this thread.
If all refuse to delineate between good and evil, what other result could there be?
Yet it is those who can delineate that are remembered. I doubt anyone will remember Henss much beyond his 15 minutes of fame. I doubt history will ever forget Oskar Schindler.
Which one of those would you rather be?
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Wernher von Braun built rockets with slave labor and killed many people with the rockets.
just saying.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I.
I love these guys that can say definitively what they would do in a given situation when they've never been there.
Like I said of the cancer before. Unless you actually HAVE been there. You dont know. I dont care what anyone says to the contrary.
You dont know.
To say otherwise is a load of crap....
....And what is war but murder on a grand scale to acheive political or social aims?
3 year kidney cancer survivor, thanks.
I have been in life/death situations in a military aircraft where my life and that of my crew depended on the decisions that I made. In places where people were eager to trip the trigger if you made a mistake.
If you are saying that you don't know if you'd choose good over evil if your choice would result in death, that's fine. Don't pretend that everyone would be the same as you, however. Clearly, not everyone is that way.
Those that are not that way are generally regarded as heroes when put to the test. Examples abound.
Who was it that said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."?
If another day of life trumps all else, there's not much to say.
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I have also been told that I would not survive and it never occured to me to "sell my soul". My take is that when it is your time it is your time and that... no one gets out alive.
Course... I never believe it when they tell me that... I didn't believe it when they told me my leg had to come off either.
lazs
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Hard feelings around. One hard fact though, - WW1 was a conflict of quite complicated political issues that spread around. There was not much difference of the sides AFAIK. If you wanna pull something bad on Gerry, than it is that they were the openers of the first gas cans. (Ypres)
WW2, - you have leather booted tyrany coming it's way, first by bullying, taking powe, then murders, confiscations imprisonments and deportations.
Then you have military buildups, annexings, then invations, and when the old Tommy and Pierre had enough of it, WAR. WW2 starts as a World war with Britain and France becoming allies to the Polish against Germany.
WW2 came to the USA by Germany declairing war on the USA because of the tripact.
Lots of hard desicions to be made. Axis decided to go on the dark side. Tying their populace up by application of all methods, their control of the people was incredible, and their propoganda was such as well.
However, when it comes to the business of the camps, it becomes more interesting. You see, what was going on in there was not supposed to escape to the German public. As a back up, the public was either supportive enough to co-operate, or afraid.
So, if you look deeply into items like the Holocaust, - the whole "job" was not intended to escape to people. It almost did though! Today you have debates about it. Just a little less survivers and documents, and it would be a debateable thing! It was meant to happen in such a way that there were no survivors and no documents. A corpseless murder in a dark alley.
Then you can put your eyes to a camp like Dachau. You have all sorts of folks in the guards department. They get haired out if they break or are too soft. They get to know most about what's going on, and the superiors definately do. The prisoners do. The prisoners surviving camps like Sachsenhausen or Dachau normally do not belive that the whole German population did know indeed. (well, I don't buy that one quite).
So, back to the dog guy. I'd ask him a few questions I think. He doesn't have to be a war criminal, - and either way, his story would be worthwile to hear.
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Its entirely likely that unless he was a high profile SS man, or an officer he would've been released after the war anyhow.
Its most likely he'll be deported and unless he can be linked to specific crimes other than serving in the SS, I'd leave it at that
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Toad
3 year kidney cancer survivor, thanks.
I have been in life/death situations in a military aircraft where my life and that of my crew depended on the decisions that I made. In places where people were eager to trip the trigger if you made a mistake.
If you are saying that you don't know if you'd choose good over evil if your choice would result in death, that's fine. Don't pretend that everyone would be the same as you, however. Clearly, not everyone is that way.
Those that are not that way are generally regarded as heroes when put to the test. Examples abound.
Who was it that said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."?
If another day of life trumps all else, there's not much to say.
Toad you contradict yourself so often debating with you is like playing on the highway, it is stupid and pointless. In one post you claim to be this big time Christan, that you would make all the right choices and all that jive. Then you turn around and spew hate for a group of pepole, most of who had no idea what their Govt was doing and even if they did, speaking out against it meant death for them and their family.
On a side note I am curious though, when where these "life and death" situations in a military aircraft? What branch where you/are you in? It seems to me from reading the past few posts you have made you haven't spent a day in your life in the military. You totally lack the understanding of orders and blind obedience out of fear. As US soldiers we never really have to worry about this. However a lot of Armys across the globe have troops doing what they do not want to do, this is out of fear. Fear for their own lives and fear for their families.
You are trying to make this situation black and white. You are trying to clean it up with a simple "He is a Nazi, hand him." type of thinking. The thing is this situation is very grey. There are a lot of questions about this guy unanswered. Their are a few unsubstantiated claims made by self proclaimed, Jewish, Nazi hunters. So far with what little evidence I have saw on the matter he is guilty of nothing more than association.
Do me a favor. Next time don't try to ride the Bible to get your message of hate across. It stinks. It shows no tact and no class on your part. Your belief in God does not make you right by default. You can't go around Bible thumping in one post, claiming you would make all the right choices in life because of God and then turn around and spew hate. Man is fallable. We all make mistakes in life. This is why got offers his everlasting forgiveness for the sins we commit on a daily basis. This guy deserves that from God and from Christians alike. Just like your message of hate deserves to be forgiven.
-Sp0t
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geez, deport him back to germany, then he can collect his military pension.
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Originally posted by Toad
3 year kidney cancer survivor, thanks.
I have been in life/death situations in a military aircraft where my life and that of my crew depended on the decisions that I made. In places where people were eager to trip the trigger if you made a mistake.
If you are saying that you don't know if you'd choose good over evil if your choice would result in death, that's fine. Don't pretend that everyone would be the same as you, however. Clearly, not everyone is that way.
Those that are not that way are generally regarded as heroes when put to the test. Examples abound.
Who was it that said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."?
If another day of life trumps all else, there's not much to say.
Congrats, 13 year stage 2 Hodgkins lymphoma here
Ok and prior to your cancer did you know exactly how you would react. what you would do if you ever had it?
Being in life and death situations is not the same as being threatoned with the choice of your life or your families lives, or someone elses.
Were you told to either kill someone or have yourself or your family killed?
I doubt it.
So its not even a close comparison.
I stand by my statement. Given that particular set of circumstance.
None of us knows exactly what we would do. We all would like to think and beleive we would act in the way of good. But the bottom line is we just dont know.
Nobody knows for sure untill it happens.
Examples abound as well
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Originally posted by john9001
Wernher von Braun built rockets with slave labor and killed many people with the rockets.
just saying.
Reminds me of a song
"once ze rockets go up, Who cares vere zey come down.
zats not my department. said Wernher von Braun "
LOL
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Originally posted by BBBB
Well unless he could tell the future his "Sworn alliagence" to Hitler was just a requirement of duty more than an oath in blood. Just like our US military requires recruits to take an oath.
-Spot
You swear an oath to defend your country and its' ideals in the US military, not to one man.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
You swear an oath to defend your country and its' ideals in the US military, not to one man.
Military oath is a military oath whether you swear to defend your country, your leader or your family. Overall it's the very same thing with the same end result. If there's a war you go to the war and if you don't you get in trouble.
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I don't consider myself a Christian, but I think I'm with Toad on this. I believe there are universal truths, maybe even laws. The Nazis broke those. In isolated cases, so did the Allies.
However, this "you don't know how you'd react in that situation, so don't be judgemental" mentality doesn't sit very well with me. Where do you draw the line? I private in SS-TK? A camp commandant? Goebbels? At which point do you stop excusing someone's actions because of the circumstances they found themselves in?
Military oath is a military oath whether you swear to defend your country, your leader or your family.
Unless you start marching into other countries and deporting large parts of their population to death camps. How are you defending your country then? This romantic idea about Teutonic military oaths is all very rosy.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Unless you start marching into other countries and deporting large parts of their population to death camps. How are you defending your country then? This romantic idea about Teutonic military oaths is all very rosy.
What does it have to do with this? nothing. You go into military and you swear an oath. What they do afterwards is not up to you to decide. Just like it's not up to the enlisted US soldiers to say whether they're willing to go to Iraq or not - They're under oath.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Military oath is a military oath whether you swear to defend your country, your leader or your family. Overall it's the very same thing with the same end result. If there's a war you go to the war and if you don't you get in trouble.
If you can't see the difference, I pity you.
Bronk
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Two questions:
1. When someone joined the Waffen SS was it clear that they would be killing Jews or committing war crimes or was it viewed as we now view the difference between joining the Army, FBI, Marines or CIA?
2. What happened to members of the Waffen SS or member of other branches of Nazi Germany who objected to performing particular duties?
In my mind, if he had a reasonable out whenever he realized what was going on, and didn’t take it, he’s a war criminal. If when he realized what was going on, he also knew that any objection on his part would lead to his certain demise, it’s hard to hold him accountable.
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In my mind, if he had a reasonable out whenever he realized what was going on, and didn’t take it, he’s a war criminal. If when he realized what was going on, he also knew that any objection on his part would lead to his certain demise, it’s hard to hold him accountable.
aGAIN, does this mean you would shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them, or perhaps into a gas chamber and suffocate them, or assist in doing gory experiments on them, so that you might save your own skin? I'd like to think most of us here would refuse that, irregardless of the consequences:(
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Originally posted by bj229r
aGAIN, does this mean you would shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them, or perhaps into a gas chamber and suffocate them, or assist in doing gory experiments on them, so that you might save your own skin? I'd like to think most of us here would refuse that, irregardless of the consequences:(
I’d like to think that I would object either verbally or physically. Do I think that it’s reasonable to expect all reasonable men to sacrifice their own lives to make a statement or feeble attempt to save others? No.
In fact, many who worked in these death factories were the Jews themselves. They knew what was going on but did what they had to in order to survive. Objection would lead to certain death. Clearly, no one would dream of holding them accountable.
IF, guards also believed that objection would also lead to certain death, how could we hold them accountable? Suppose that a guard stated one day, “This isn’t right, we shouldn’t be doing this.” and then was immediately shot. I wouldn’t blame someone for shutting up.
Things aren’t always so black and white. This may be black or white, but I don’t think we know enough yet.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I’d like to think that I would object either verbally or physically. Do I think that it’s reasonable to expect all reasonable men to sacrifice their own lives to make a statement or feeble attempt to save others? No.
In fact, many who worked in these death factories were the Jews themselves. They knew what was going on but did what they had to in order to survive. Objection would lead to certain death. Clearly, no one would dream of holding them accountable.
IF, guards also believed that objection would also lead to certain death, how could we hold them accountable? Suppose that a guard stated one day, “This isn’t right, we shouldn’t be doing this.” and then was immediately shot. I wouldn’t blame someone for shutting up.
Things aren’t always so black and white. This may be black or white, but I don’t think we know enough yet.
So...you WOULD shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them?..Yes, life IS that black and white sometimes, and yes, if one does so to save his life, he SHOULD be held accountable
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Originally posted by Neubob
I always find it odd that on this board, it's always the Europeans and Scandinavians that find the strength to be objective in matters like these, especially when it comes to former nazis and warcrimes, and the Arab Israeli conflict in general.
Americans generally react from the gut, with anger and resolve against the Nazis/Terrorists, while our friends from across the ocean paint the German Patriot, Zionist/Muslim problem in a whole different light.
Must be the textbooks.
Friends?? I'm not surprised that Fishu finds the Nazis unobjectionable.
After all, they were allies of Finland during the war. The groups you
quote as being objective supported Germany as a whole during the Nazi
regime.
Your bias shines through loud and clear.
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I met a German soldier once. He told me a story about his fiancé’s family. Her father was an engineer in a factory. Everyone had to Join the Nazi party and pay a small fee. He wouldn’t do it. Hi boss pleaded with him and told him that they would make him fire him. His boss even offered to pay his fee. He still wouldn’t sign.
He was fired and from then on unemployable throughout the entire war. His wife was fired from her university job and also unemployable throughout the entire war. They lost their home. His wife mended people’s clothes independently. They barely made enough to eat. That’s what happened to civilians who objected to joining the Nazi party. I have a feeling that soldiers had an even harder time if they objected in any way. I think that most objectors didn’t survive.
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there is a movie clip filmed by the german army somewhere in eastern europe, it shows the soldiers lining up civilians against a wall to be shot.
one of the german soldiers refused to shoot the civilians. He is disarmed and lined up with the civilians and shot along with them.
This is fact, you can sit here and say you will do this or you will do that, but that is what happened.
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bj229, you love your high horse, but the truth is that you never know how you will react in a situation until you are faced with it. For example, many decent human beings have drowned loved ones and life guards in order to try and save their own lives. If you asked these people before hand if they would ever trade their spouses life or a strangers life to prolong their own they would have said "No, of course not" but everyone reacts differently to different types of fear and pressure.
I like to think that I would die before "shoving women and children into ditches" but if someone is holding a gun to my Fiancé's head or if I had kids to their heads then I really can't say for sure what I would do; and history has shown through out the centuries that man will do terrible things to protect their families. I am thankful that I have never been put into this situation but the soldiers in Germany during WWII were. Sometimes the world isn't as black and white as you want it to be (and yes it sucks).
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That would be one of the afore-mentioned 'black-and-white' situations
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Originally posted by bj229r
So...you WOULD shove women and children into a ditch and shoot them?..Yes, life IS that black and white sometimes, and yes, if one does so to save his life, he SHOULD be held accountable
Read my first 12 words and STFU.
Quite frankly, just because you SAY on a BBS that you would be willing to give your life instead of committing war crimes doesn’t mean that you really would in real life. Internet tough guy/moral elitist is just as likely if you ask me. You really don’t know because you weren’t there.
It really doesn’t take much of a mind to state the morally obvious. Children go through a stage where they only view moral dilemmas in black and white. Adults realize that a great many things are very gray.
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Originally posted by Rino
Friends?? I'm not surprised that Fishu finds the Nazis unobjectionable.
After all, they were allies of Finland during the war. The groups you
quote as being objective supported Germany as a whole during the Nazi
regime.
Your bias shines through loud and clear.
Um... have you read ANY of my subsequent posts in this thread, rino?
The mere mention of leniency and fascism in the same sentence made me red in the face. If you knew anything about my background, or me personally, you would not, could not have taken that comment as anything but patronizing towards what I believe to be a indoctrinated apologist...
Either learn to sense extreme sarcasm, or do yourself a favor and simply ignore most of what I say. Most of the members of this board who read my thoughts have no problem with this. I'm sorry that you do.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
In fact, many who worked in these death factories were the Jews themselves. They knew what was going on but did what they had to in order to survive. Objection would lead to certain death. Clearly, no one would dream of holding them accountable.
Jewish Kapos that were found guilty of war crimes were prosecuted and executed for their actions.
ack-ack
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Adults realize that a great many things are very gray
Not a damn thing gray about it. Two hard, cold choices--shove women and children out of the lifeboat, or get out yourself. Hopefully it will never happen again
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I wonder if convicting someone of a war crime, without first giving them a fair trial, is in itself, a war crime? Wouldn’t that be ironic?
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Originally posted by BBBB
In one post you claim to be this big time Christan, that you would make all the right choices and all that jive.
I challenge you to quote that post. What you've just said is totally incorrect.
Then you turn around and spew hate for a group of pepole,
This is a perception on your part that is totally incorrect. I don't hate them but I don't respect them; I don't want to be their friends. They are nulls to me.
On a side note I am curious though, when where these "life and death" situations in a military aircraft?
3000+ hours in both the right and left seats of the RC-135. My military history is pretty much on the board. If you actually knew anything about me, you would know that. I suspect you know very little about me.
You are trying to make this situation black and white.
If he was a Dachau guard for 2 years, it is black and white.
Do me a favor. Next time don't try to ride the Bible to get your message of hate across.
Do me a favor. Quote any passage where I have posted anything like that. Again, it's clear you know nothing about me.
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If given a choice between Joe Shmo
and #4
Guess who looses
Joe Schmo looses if people are honest. The survival instinct is very strong in all of us.
I'm with Fishu on this one (/gasp can't believe I just said that :O ). Let due process take it's course. If the guy did commit war crimes then prosecute to the fullest extent possible. If he didn't, then leave the old man alone to die in peace.
There is much we don't know about this mans history at the camps.
All armies committed war crimes to one degree or another, even the Red Army did regardless of Boroda's vehement denials. Only the Axis powers were charged with war crimes and only because they lost.
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If he was a Dachau guard for 2 years, it is black and white.
That isn't clear, from the article:
This is the accusation:
Paul Henss, a resident of Lawrenceville, Georgia, handled attack dogs that terrorized inmates at the Dachau and Buchenwald Nazi concentration camps between 1942 and 1944, the department said in a charging document filed in the deportation case.
This is what Henss has to say:
Interviewed at his home after the deportation order was made public, Henss said he trained dogs in 1942 to fight on the Russian front and to guard prisoners but this did not make him a war criminal.
Another article:
http://www.thestate.com/361/story/188834.html
Again it has it's allegations:
According to federal authorities, Henss joined the Hitler Youth organization in Germany in 1934 as a 12- or 13-year-old boy and joined the Nazi Party in 1940.
He entered the Waffen SS in 1941 and volunteered the following year to become an SS dog handler, serving from 1942 to 1944 at the Dachau and Buchenwald concentration camps in Germany, the immigration document states.
There, Henss instructed other guards in the use of trained attack dogs to guard prisoners and prevent their escape, and personally guarded prisoners and forced-labor details to prevent escapes, authorities allege.
SS regulations during Henss' time of service said dogs were to be trained "to 'bite without mercy' and to literally tear prisoners to pieces if they attempted to escape," the document states.
Again with Henss admissions:
Henss admitted in a sworn statement March 13 that he served as an SS guard at Dachau and Buchenwald for two to three months each as a dog handler, according to the charging document.
On Monday, he acknowledged training dogs but said he fought in Russia and never set foot inside Dachau or Buchenwald.
I've never been to see any of the concentration camps. My question is this....is it possible to be a guard at a concentration camp but never actually go inside of it?
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I like to think that I would die before "shoving women and children into ditches" but if someone is holding a gun to my Fiancé's head or if I had kids to their heads then I really can't say for sure what I would do; and history has shown through out the centuries that man will do terrible things to protect their families. I am thankful that I have never been put into this situation but the soldiers in Germany during WWII were. Sometimes the world isn't as black and white as you want it to be (and yes it sucks).
To save my wife and children I would do most anything I suppose. You could coerce me into doing many things to save them that you could not get me to do to save myself.
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Originally posted by Elfie
He entered the Waffen SS in 1941 and volunteered the following year to become an SS dog handler, serving from 1942 to 1944 at the Dachau and Buchenwald concentration camps in Germany, the immigration document states.
Ok what I dont understand is if it was documented on his immigration papers.
Why was he let in this country to begin with?
Or better yet.
Why wasnt he prosecuted then?
They obviously knew about him
Why wait 60 years?
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Originally posted by Viking
He has committed no crime that I can see.
Probably some immigration irregularities involved in getting here, so all he needs to do is find one of our "sanctuary cities" like Austin where the authorities are forbidden from asking questions about immigration status.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ok what I dont understand is if it was documented on his immigration papers.
Why was he let in this country to begin with?
Or better yet.
Why wasnt he prosecuted then?
They obviously knew about him
Why wait 60 years?
Officials said Henss entered the United States in 1955 after concealing his concentration camp service.
I highly suspect he didn`t document that he was unemployed since the death camp closed down. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Or better yet.
Why wasnt he prosecuted then?
Prosecuted for what? If he didn't commit war crimes then there was nothing to prosecute him for. Even if he did something it's not possible to go through every soldier of the surrendered enemy and give them a fair trial where will be judged whether the crimes were committed willingly or unwillingly. The focus after every war has been in the commanding officers who were ultimately responsible for the actions.
Prosecuting hundreds of thousands german soldiers wouldn't have been helpful, it would have left the already depressed people even more depressed after the surrender. In fact part of the reasons that led to WWII was that the germans generally felt they were treated unfairly after the WWI. Some things are better to be left in the past, give way for a new era and work to prevent it from happening again. Too much scrutiny only eats up huge amount of resources and achieves nothing, especially if it doesn't take into consideration the crimes by the winning side.
Lots of germans worked in forced labor after the war though. A general punishment.
Good luck if you want to prosecute everyone who were POSSIBLY involved in war crimes. The first thing you can wonder is why all the serbian soldiers possibly involved in war crimes and crimes against humanity weren't prosecuted, but primarly the leaders. Let's see how the country will feel afterwards and see how long it'll take for an another war to fire up when they felt they were done injustice.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ok what I dont understand is if it was documented on his immigration papers.
Why was he let in this country to begin with?
Or better yet.
Why wasnt he prosecuted then?
They obviously knew about him
Why wait 60 years?
In one of the articles Henss says he wasn't asked about his service in the war. There are to many inconsistencies at this point for me to condemn this guy.