Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: HighGTrn on October 01, 2007, 03:54:17 PM
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I had the privilege to witness an extremely well played E fighting scenario last night. I will withold names to protect the innocent and embarrassed.
The adversary came over our base in a C2. We were numerous as green cons filled the sky. The C2 came in only about 2k above our highest friendly con. He started at the top and worked his way down. Every time someone tried to engage them, he very quickly dispatched them to the tower. After getting shot down multiple times, I stayed in my chute to watch him.
What I saw was a ballet in air combat. The C2 employed smooth, E saving techniques combined with well placed shots. His ability to judge his opponent's E state allowed him to be just outside of guns range while he slowly bled away everyone's E. He then swooped down and made a quick kill only to ascend again his perch, ready for another engagement. His maneuvers were so clean and smooth, they were almost rythmatic. I could almost time a symphony to his movements of loops and rolls.
I texted this player asking for tips and help and he referred me to WideWing and Rolex. I will take him up on his tip and seek these guys out in the TA.
I once read that you can beat a good angles and BnZ fighter but when faced with a real good E fighter, your chances of surviving are slim. That was demonstrated last night.
When it was all said and done, this guy killed and landed 8 victories without sustaining a single ping (from what I could see).
to the player (you know who you are).
Regards,
HighGTrn
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Originally posted by HighGTrn
The C2 employed smooth, E saving techniques combined with well placed shots. His ability to judge his opponent's E state allowed him to be just outside of guns range while he slowly bled away everyone's E. He then swooped down and made a quick kill only to ascend again his perch, ready for another engagement.
No love for the cherry pickers.
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A Tiffie screaming in from 10K above the highest friendly, blasting away and then zooming off is a cherry picker.
No my friend, this guy was deliberate stayed close, engaged and killed 8 guys.
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Originally posted by HighGTrn
A Tiffie screaming in from 10K above the highest friendly, blasting away and then zooming off is a cherry picker.
No my friend, this guy was deliberate stayed close, engaged and killed 8 guys.
Video pls!
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Originally posted by HighGTrn
A Tiffie screaming in from 10K above the highest friendly, blasting away and then zooming off is a cherry picker.
:lol Saw a 190 at 35K over our base today. THAT'S cherry picking.
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Cherry Picking? I blame the people climbing up to him to fight. The only way he could stay alive, was to have the odds in his favor. No way he could have turn faught 8 enemy's and survived.
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I was there, playing the part of one of the victims. Everything HighG says is pretty much on the money.
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You'll find a guy called Danodano. As described in the opening thread he does this all the time. Very good at it to. He's often facing a target rich environment (gang to most of you) and keeps his E, his head and usually gets away with it. Fair play to the chap:aok
oh P.S He ain't picking or cherry picking he's roping you dopes.
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Thing is, B&Zer's do that all the time. Don't know that there's any reason to idolize them. I hate 'em.
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The C 205 isnt really a B&Zer, its a midwar ride (a very good one) without the top speed or climb to just scoot away. If he stayed and got 8 scalps and got out he wasnt picking.
Now without knowing the quality of the opposition I'd say he was beating the baby seals up pretty badly. Certainly wouldnt be easy to kill a high 205 but you can force him away or off his perch pretty easily....
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Originally posted by xtyger
Thing is, B&Zer's do that all the time. Don't know that there's any reason to idolize them. I hate 'em.
i'm a B&Zer and it aint cherry picking.. I can understand being about 10k about everyone going down, shooting someone, flying away, thats cherry picking.. E fighting isnt easy at all... i could say the same thing about turn fighters.. I fly the f4u and lets say a zero gets me into a turn fight (and i shouldnt, but it happens) the odds are now in his favor right?? so whats the difference, you take the strengths of your plane and use it to the disadvantage of the other plane.. nothing wrong with that at all.. You should tell all the B&Zers of WWII that they are worthless.. You do what you do to survive.
my 2 pennys
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Originally posted by odin3
i'm a B&Zer and it aint cherry picking.. I can understand being about 10k about everyone going down, shooting someone, flying away, thats cherry picking.. E fighting isnt easy at all... i could say the same thing about turn fighters.. I fly the f4u and lets say a zero gets me into a turn fight (and i shouldnt, but it happens) the odds are now in his favor right?? so whats the difference, you take the strengths of your plane and use it to the disadvantage of the other plane.. nothing wrong with that at all.. You should tell all the B&Zers of WWII that they are worthless.. You do what you do to survive.
my 2 pennys
Or you can out-turn planes that are more manueverable than what you're flying. BnZ'ing is relatively easy compared to that.
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Originally posted by Fianna
Or you can out-turn planes that are more manueverable than what you're flying. BnZ'ing is relatively easy compared to that.
huh? By the very nature of your statement, you can't out-turn them.
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Turning is soooo overrated :p
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Originally posted by Fianna
Or you can out-turn planes that are more manueverable than what you're flying. BnZ'ing is relatively easy compared to that.
ya, that dont make sence, how can i outturn a plane that is more manueverable..
I'm just saying that some planes arent made for turn fighting.. some are..
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Originally posted by odin3
i'm a B&Zer and it aint cherry picking.. I can understand being about 10k about everyone going down, shooting someone, flying away, thats cherry picking.. E fighting isnt easy at all... i could say the same thing about turn fighters.. I fly the f4u and lets say a zero gets me into a turn fight (and i shouldnt, but it happens) the odds are now in his favor right?? so whats the difference, you take the strengths of your plane and use it to the disadvantage of the other plane.. nothing wrong with that at all.. You should tell all the B&Zers of WWII that they are worthless.. You do what you do to survive.
my 2 pennys
1) It's not real war. You have an unlimited supply of cartoon planes.
2) You can "out turn" the Zeke by using your F4Us superior roll rate.
Basically, imho, and I think many will agree, the guys that are really great at energy management are not the guys that come in on top of the pile and slowly work their way down without endangering themselves. Anybody can do that with minimal training. The exceptionally dangerous guys are the ones that start with an energy disadvantage, and manage it well enough to bleed off their attackers energy and reverse them. That's far more impressive to watch than 1 guy shooting up a pile of people roping themselves.
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You can out turn a plane that is more maneuverable than you -- by being a better pilot. That means using energy, flaps, ACM, vertical components, and PRECISE control to get the most out of your inferior plane...while hoping the opponent can't use his plane to its potential.
But doing that relies on your opponent being a less competent pilot. In a crowded arena, it is often wiser to not assume you'll get away with it.
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Originally posted by odin3
ya, that dont make sence, how can i outturn a plane that is more manueverable..
I'm just saying that some planes arent made for turn fighting.. some are..
pick your angles correctly. The only bad part is, if you don't get that gun solution your working for, you will have no E and will not be able to sustain the turn with them. :aok
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Originally posted by odin3
ya, that dont make sence, how can i outturn a plane that is more manueverable..
I'm just saying that some planes arent made for turn fighting.. some are..
By using angles to but into the turn of the more maneuverable fighter. For example, a FW190A-8 can use its superior roll rate to get inside of a more maneuverable plane's turn for a shot.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by HighGTrn
When it was all said and done, this guy killed and landed 8 victories without sustaining a single ping (from what I could see).
[/B]
Next time this happens to you, get a p51d, 109k4, or ki84 (or any other fast climbing plane) and fly low, out and away from the base until you are out of icon range, climb about 3 to 5 k above where he is and come back. Watch him run..... or u may actually have a nice 1 on 1 fight while ur kill stealing compadres are trying to get up to you to interfere. (If you want a good one on one, come in co-alt to keep it even and fun).
If you find that somehow he happens to get you as you are climbing away (shouldn't happen if there are more folks at the base and its not a vulch situation), get another dude to climb out in the opposite direction. One of you will make it up to ruin his party.
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Personally, I'm always looking for "good" fights. It's impossible to have a "good" fight against an idiot, or against someone flying like an idiot. I expect / demand the best that pilot can give, and so I must also give my best. I want a "chess-match" fight where both pilots use their brains to outsmart / out-fly their opponent.
The majority of pilots in this game fly like idiots, and as such are not possible to have a "good" fight against. You may as well send them back to the tower quickly, and save everyone from wasting their time. Plain and simple, "picking" them is really devoting all the energy they deserve or require. Why waste an aerobatic routine on them? All you need to do to avoid being picked is use your brain and your six view.
Many fly stupidly out of a sense of glory- diving right into a swarm of enemies hoping to kill a few before they get killed themselves. I think the vast majority of these guys are using that tactic as an excuse for dieing. "I didn't die because I suck, I died because I took on an impossible fight!" They like nothing better than to be given a handy excuse for dieing. It takes the blame away from their poor flying and / or SA, and hopefully makes them look like it took lots of luck to kill them. "You picked me!"
The average guy coming into this game has a sense for what "dogfighting" is. This is the classic idea of TnB. Most never progress beyond this point. It is the most "instinctual" method of fighting, and as such needs less "thought". Those few that actually use their brains in this type of fighting will shine like diamonds, but they are the minority for sure. Generally, they'll tell you they're studs, so you won't have to try to figure it out for yourself.
The next step is getting sick of dieing quickly, pointlessly, stupidly, etc... A desire to live longer, and land a few kills is spawned. This leads to flying fast planes, and taking minimal risks. Some research is likely done in an effort to get better. This leads to BnZ fighting. Fairly boring, but probably the easiest to master, and easiest to succeed at with minimal deaths. Once mastered, these guys will be known as dedicated pickers, and be labeled as "scum". How dare they attempt to progress beyond BnZ???
Those looking for a go-between between TnB and BnZ will eventually discover E fighting. This is the toughest to master, and IMO is the most rewarding. It offers the best of both worlds, and IMO is the most fun. It is the only way a "poorer" turning plane will consistantly "out-turn" a "better" turning plane. Or that an outnumbered pilot will have hope of winning. The guys that get this type of fighting figured out are the "dangerous" guys in the game. The ones that constantly pull themselves out of the hairy situations with kills to show for it.
Assuming equal pilots- in a pure TnB fight, the zeke beats the corsair every time. In a pure BnZ fight, the zeke dodges the corsair every time. In an E fight, the corsair can prevail. In an 8v1, the numbers will always beat the single plane (again assuming competent pilots on both sides). In an 8v1, if the single plane uses BnZ tactics, he might get a kill or two. It'll be tough though, because the 8 will be giving six calls, and eventually will chase the BnZ'er from his post.
An E fighter in a similar situation will kill several of the 8, and won't allow them to chase him off. If he kills enough of the 8, he might even thin their ranks to the point of being able to have a "good" fight before RTB'ing. Chances are the remaining fighters at that point will be alive because they are also using their brains- and E fighting tactics to survive.
Of course, if the 1 gets a little too impatient, blows his E, or dives into the swarm, he's an idiot, and won't be worth attempting to have a "good" fight against. Might as well pick him off of one of your buddies, send him back to the tower, and hope for a better opponent next time...
Sounds like the C205 has his E fighting figured out! I'm guessing he'd be a dangerous opponent in any plane he chooses, and would be a prime candidate for one heck of a "good" fight! (If any of those lower guys would show him they deserve to have a shot at it!)
MtnMan
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I ask you, is the idiot the guy just having fun mixing it up, or the guy demanding that others fight the way he wants them to, and calling them idiots if they don't?
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Originally posted by mtnman
The average guy coming into this game has a sense for what "dogfighting" is. This is the classic idea of TnB. Most never progress beyond this point. It is the most "instinctual" method of fighting, and as such needs less "thought". Those few that actually use their brains in this type of fighting will shine like diamonds, but they are the minority for sure. Generally, they'll tell you they're studs, so you won't have to try to figure it out for yourself.
MtnMan
:aok
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Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight.
Even in a very tight phone booth fight you're dealing with E. Sometimes just as much as to know when to dump E for that angle shot, or to make other guy overshoot.
Making E-fighting a special category is silly.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight.
Even in a very tight phone booth fight you're dealing with E. Sometimes just as much as to know when to dump E for that angle shot, or to make other guy overshoot.
Making E-fighting a special category is silly.
BINGO !!!
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I ask you, is the idiot the guy just having fun mixing it up, or the guy demanding that others fight the way he wants them to, and calling them idiots if they don't?
I don't have a problem with somebody jumping in and mixing it up any way they want to, even if it is in what I consider to be a foolish manner. That doesn't make them an idiot. If they know the odds, accept them, and are willing to live with the results, it's a logical decision.
Some can fly in what appears to be a foolish manner, yet prevail more often than not. That's not idiotic, it's actually smart flying.
But if he / she whines about the results, or seems to be surprised by those results, or cries because nobody bailed him out, etc, etc, etc, then yes I consider them idiots. This game is absolutely full of people who do that.
I don't even expect them to fight by my standards. ( Although I admit I would like to see a higher ratio of "skilled" fights.) But if they whine because they lose, when they flew in a manner that almost guarantees their loss, I see that as idiotic.
To fail repeatedly, yet continue to do the same thing, the same way, expecting different results is idiotic.
I'm one of the guys who almost never fights the way others want me to. I don't see that as idiotic (per your quote), because it generally makes me successful and is fun for me. When I lose, I deal with it, because I know I died due to my own choices. If it wasn't fun, or led to constant failure, yet I continued to do so, I WOULD consider it idiotic.
Idiotic can be fun. It's still idiotic.
This game makes it possible to act like an idiot and still have fun, with no real negative consequences. If everybody flew in this game with no desire to win / survive, this game would be the epitome of boring and pointless.
The guy who sets himself up to be picked, is picked, and then whines about it is acting like an idiot.
Fact is, if you die in this game it's because you chose to. You made choices that got you killed. To cry about the results of your own choices is idiotic.
MtnMan
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight.
Even in a very tight phone booth fight you're dealing with E. Sometimes just as much as to know when to dump E for that angle shot, or to make other guy overshoot.
Making E-fighting a special category is silly.
As knowledge of a subject increases, classification increases. De-classification or simplification leads to or continues vagueness and confusion.
By your argument, classifying TnB as different than Bnz is also silly. Both use E-management, and for that matter identical flight manuevers. Does that make them identical styles / tactics?
For that matter, simplifying it further, Bnz and TnB are really simply manned vehicles attempting to destroy each other with projectiles, just like GV's. Can we classify their tactics seperately? Should we?
Why name (classify) oaks as different than pines? Both are trees.
Why seperate trees from grass, when both are plants?
Why seperate animals from plants when both are living?
Why seperate living from non-living, when both are carbon based?
Since everything is carbon based, why classify at all? That would really simplify things, as intelligence and language would be pointless (could be anyway...)
Everything is so simple when we stop classifying...
MtnMan
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Originally posted by mtnman
a really long wall of text to say (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=305vRNoofr8)
there now all better.
:D
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Originally posted by storch
Clack, Clack-Clack, Clack...
:D
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Great post HighGturn (and mtnman).
I've enjoyed flying with you the last few nights. I hope you stay on the good guy chess piece team a while longer.
Toonces
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Originally posted by mtnman
Since everything is carbon based, ...
Everything is not carbon based. Life forms, yes. Everything, no.
I was a chemistry major once upon a time.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I ask you, is the idiot the guy just having fun mixing it up, or the guy demanding that others fight the way he wants them to, and calling them idiots if they don't?
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by mtnman
By your argument, classifying TnB as different than Bnz is also silly. Both use E-management, and for that matter identical flight manuevers. Does that make them identical styles / tactics?
Blah, topic was titled "lesson in E-fighting".
Styles are reserved for figure skating and such.
Air to air combat is all about ACM. ACM is plane/skill/situation dependent. Good pilots will do what it takes to win. They have preferences, some emphasize angles, some E management and some rely more on SA and/or TS, but that's about as far as I would go with the 'styles'. None of them will stubbornly stick to one trick. They'll adjust as needed.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
None of them will stubbornly stick to one trick. They'll adjust as needed.
Within the performance limits of the a/c, of course.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Styles are reserved for figure skating and such.
:lol
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Cherrypicker? Was the CAP over that base the usual cloud of Spits and Nikis at 5K? :rofl
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Blah, topic was titled "lesson in E-fighting".
Styles are reserved for figure skating and such.
Air to air combat is all about ACM. ACM is plane/skill/situation dependent. Good pilots will do what it takes to win. They have preferences, some emphasize angles, some E management and some rely more on SA and/or TS, but that's about as far as I would go with the 'styles'. None of them will stubbornly stick to one trick. They'll adjust as needed.
And the response was based on your assumption that E-fighting doesn't exist. Now you want to direct me toward a topic you say is non-existent??
If your reply doesn't infer that "styles" exist in the game, I don't know what does, hehe.
What is style if not individual application of knowledge and technique?
Play this game long enough, and you'll begin to recognize opponents by the way they fight. If this isn't recognition of style, what is? If differences can be recognized, they're not identical, which means they can be grouped and classified. TnB, Bnz, and E-fighting are common classifications used...
MtnMan
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Wow! I never thought this post would generate such great discussion. Believe it or not, I troll this forum looking for posts like this all the time because it really does help my game (Lord knows I need it).
We have a new tour, new month, new scores and I have the opportunity for a new beginning. This month, I'm going to attempt to employ as much E tactics as possible. This is gonna take a lot of patience, deep understanding of the ship I'm using (in my case the Corsair) and understanding of the performance modeling of the ships I'm likely to encounter the most (La's, Ponies, Spits).
So far, its been working out alright. Every time I get shot down, I record it in a journal and try to analyze what happened. I was shocked after looking at several entries in my death journal because of what I discovered.
Here are the top 3 reasons HighGtrn gets shot down:
1. Blowing E/Alt advantage because a squaddie or someone is asking me for help. Yep, this is the number one reason I get killed (so far). Up on my perch, I look down and see a friendly in a sea of red trying to make a miracle happen. I get the call for help so I dive down, clear his tail, and then I'm in the sea of red. Will have to work on that one....
2. Taking off from a capped base. This is where I get primordial. The early TnB Homo Erectus in me sometimes can't resist a good old fashion... get off the ground and mix it up fight... After getting vulched, I quickly evolve to modern man.
3. Flying against the grain. I call employing inappropriate maneuvers against an opponent "flying against the grain". Quick example... I bounced a Zeke a couple days ago. He managed to get me on the deck and turning. I was using flaps and rudders in my Corsairs to barely stay behind his 3/9 line. He had turned my advantage into his advantage. While I still had enough E left, I hit the WEP, nosed up and barrell rolled opposite his direction of turn and was able to gain six again. Extend, roll opposite and position. I did this a couple of times and managed to keep my E up. I finally got him with a 70 degree, angle off rear quarter shot. He was almost stalling. I used a successful story here because most of the time when I "fly against the grain", I get my butt handed to me.
This game is so much fun. Too bad I can't do this stuff in my Piper Cub.
Great flying with you too Toonces.
HighGTrn
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Originally posted by mtnman
And the response was based on your assumption that E-fighting doesn't exist. Now you want to direct me toward a topic you say is non-existent??
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight.
Making E-fighting a special category is silly
Originally posted by mtnman
If your reply doesn't infer that "styles" exist in the game, I don't know what does, hehe.
What is style if not individual application of knowledge and technique?
In military aviation distinctive features, execution and performance characteristics are not called styles.
Originally posted by mtnman
TnB, Bnz, and E-fighting are common classifications used...
Describe each one of them with ACM terms and you'll see what I mean.
Now, if we stick to your 'styles', how is E-fighting distinctive to TnB and/or BnZ?
Let's say TnB is special category of air combat. Does E management applies or not?
If it doesn't, which maneuvers are used/performed in TnB fight and which in "E-fight"? What is different?
No matter your answers, I can safely repeat what I have said:"Just about every fight, in essence, is an E fight. Making E-fighting a special category is silly".
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Holy technicalities batman....
HighG... you keep a journal on your AH sorties? Interesting concept. I'm not quite that devoted to this game, but very interesting indeed.
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Originally posted by HighGTrn
Every time I get shot down, I record it in a journal and try to analyze what happened. I was shocked after looking at several entries in my death journal because of what I discovered.
I never got this either. If you can beat a trained fighter then it should be easier to deal with a non trained one. Why do pple settle for the least threating person as proof of what they do "works?" Sure not everyone walking the street is a trained fighter but the ones who are more willing to fight tend to have some expereince behind them. Best be ready for that.
Hit your record button bro. Hit it frequently. The files are small anyways. That way when somebody does something that blows your mind, you can hop in their cockpit later and see how they did it. Much more useful than just taking notes!
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Originally posted by mtnman
And the response was based on your assumption that E-fighting doesn't exist. Now you want to direct me toward a topic you say is non-existent??
If your reply doesn't infer that "styles" exist in the game, I don't know what does, hehe.
What is style if not individual application of knowledge and technique?
Play this game long enough, and you'll begin to recognize opponents by the way they fight. If this isn't recognition of style, what is? If differences can be recognized, they're not identical, which means they can be grouped and classified. TnB, Bnz, and E-fighting are common classifications used...
MtnMan
I'd like to hear well-defined, comparative definitions of all the 'styles' MtnMan ascribes to (academic curiosity). I've seen some people agree with his catagorization of ACM in the past, and some not. Would be interested to see how one style is differentiated from the other in his prespective.
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Originally posted by mtnman
Fact is, if you die in this game it's because you chose to. You made choices that got you killed. To cry about the results of your own choices is idiotic.
MtnMan
I find that overly simplistic in the context of the MA environment. Choices are made according to the known conditions at the time. Other players, friendlies, moreso than enemies, can make their own choices to completely invalidate the conditions upon which your choices were based. This can leave one in a situation where there are no viable options left to choose from.
You can try and argue a chain of choices all the way back to plane choice and loadout it the hanger, where a different choice may have avoided the situation, but it doesn't change the fact that somone elses ignorance or stupidity thrust the situation upon you.
If you want to apply that standard to yourself, knock yourself out, but don't expect to apply it to others without a backlash.
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Originally posted by Murdr
I find that overly simplistic in the context of the MA environment.
No offense Mtnman but Murdr makes a good point here.
Sometimes, you simply get beaten... outflown. Happens to me enough to know when it happens. I do my share of crying on 200, but not when this happens.
MTN, Remember the other day when we had that wicked little scissors going on the deck at stall speed? You were in a -4 hog and I in my pony. You were simply better than me, despite my best efforts, and you shot me down. I don't know that I made a bad choice. I believe that you plain old beat me. It was dumb luck that I got a ditch out of it. My broken plane fluttered down from the 25 feet or so we were off the deck. :)
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Originally posted by Murdr
I find that overly simplistic in the context of the MA environment. Choices are made according to the known conditions at the time. Other players, friendlies, moreso than enemies, can make their own choices to completely invalidate the conditions upon which your choices were based. This can leave one in a situation where there are no viable options left to choose from.
You can try and argue a chain of choices all the way back to plane choice and loadout it the hanger, where a different choice may have avoided the situation, but it doesn't change the fact that somone elses ignorance or stupidity thrust the situation upon you.
If you want to apply that standard to yourself, knock yourself out, but don't expect to apply it to others without a backlash.
Well, I do see almost everything as being a result of choices made. Some well thought out, and others less so. Some made with adequate information, but all with varying amounts of "mystery" or surprises.
Gamewise- Since nothing is mandatory, everything is by choice. Log in? Or not? Fly? Or drive? How much risk do you CHOOSE to take? Fly the front lines? Or 10 bases back where it's safe? Which plane do you choose? How do you fly it?
Surprises will occur, but you know that coming in. Nothing is forced upon you. You chose to be exactly where you are. Or was it mandated?
MtnMan
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
No offense Mtnman but Murdr makes a good point here.
Sometimes, you simply get beaten... outflown. Happens to me enough to know when it happens. I do my share of crying on 200, but not when this happens.
MTN, Remember the other day when we had that wicked little scissors going on the deck at stall speed? You were in a -4 hog and I in my pony. You were simply better than me, despite my best efforts, and you shot me down. I don't know that I made a bad choice. I believe that you plain old beat me. It was dumb luck that I got a ditch out of it. My broken plane fluttered down from the 25 feet or so we were off the deck. :)
It was an awesome fight Steve, and one to remember! !
I don't know that either of us made decisions incorrectly. But does making a correct decision guarantee success?
Personally, I chose to be where I was, in what I was in, and had a very real expectation of the risks I was taking. I made decisions based on information at hand, and from past experience.
I even chose to attempt to finish you off, knowing I would be in a mess if I did. And I was, and I died, and I knew I had other options available than the one I chose.
Granted, most of us desire a certain amount of risk and "unknown" to make the game interesting, but following through with the desire is a choice.
Guess I wasn't brought up to blame others for my success or failure. How can you take credit for one but not the other?
MtnMan
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Originally posted by Sloehand
I'd like to hear well-defined, comparative definitions of all the 'styles' MtnMan ascribes to (academic curiosity). I've seen some people agree with his catagorization of ACM in the past, and some not. Would be interested to see how one style is differentiated from the other in his prespective.
Hmmm, ok.
I'll start a new thread though, to stop this one from getting too far out of hand.
MtnMan
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Mtman, let me put this another way. One tool that players have in their hands that affect general gameplay is peer pressure. Pervasive, consistant peer pressure is called etiquette. One can choose to take or leave such pressure as they will, but pervasive 'screw everyone including your buddy' gameplay makes for poor general gameplay for everyone.
With the quote I reposted, it stands to reason that speaking out against this type of behavior is also, "crying" and "idiotic". Maybe that was not the message you were trying to send. If I were hit by a drunk driver, I would not blame myself for choosing to be on the road. While vastly more trivial, if I see another players outright ignorance or stupidity that adversely affects my gameplay experience, I am not going to blame myself, nor keep quiet about it either.
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HighGTrn
If you keep that up, analyzing why you get shot down, and learn from it, you are going to improve a lot. This is what 99% of the players seem to overlook, instead they up a new plane to get back into the action, and get killed again in most cases.
The causes you listed there are the same I've had on my list for a long time.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Mtman, let me put this another way. One tool that players have in their hands that affect general gameplay is peer pressure. Pervasive, consistant peer pressure is called etiquette. One can choose to take or leave such pressure as they will, but pervasive 'screw everyone including your buddy' gameplay makes for poor general gameplay for everyone.
With the quote I reposted, it stands to reason that speaking out against this type of behavior is also, "crying" and "idiotic". Maybe that was not the message you were trying to send. If I were hit by a drunk driver, I would not blame myself for choosing to be on the road. While vastly more trivial, if I see another players outright ignorance or stupidity that adversely affects my gameplay experience, I am not going to blame myself, nor keep quiet about it either.
I would concede that there are circumstances that will arise that are beyond our control, or are so rare and unlikely as to be dismissed (rightly so) during our decision making. We can't stay off the roads because of the fairly minimal risk of being in an accident. We can't forecast where lightning will strike etc... We make choices based on most likely outcome.
I agree that peer pressure can and should be used in an attempt to improve or at least halt degrading gameplay. I would argue that most of the peer pressure we see applied is ineffective, and fits in the crying and idiotic category, however unfortunately. Ranting, insulting, name-calling etc are the normal avenues I see taken, with little or no positive effect. Quite honestly, that was the point of my initial post, which was likely worded poorly. It was an effort to recognize my desire to see higher quality fights, and a higher level of skill. I was a bit irked that what I saw as skill was simply labeled as picking.
MtnMan
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I kinda got lost here in the discussion.
I searched for a while but finally found the articles I was looking for on Simhq.com. Here's an excerpt:
"If you have read any of my articles before, you know what’s coming now!! Yep…it’s time for a little academics! A successful BnZ attack is going to come as the result of two things…knowing when to fly the maneuver and knowing how to fly the maneuver. Let’s start off with a look at when such a maneuver would be necessary in the first place.
We have this maneuver in our clue bag mainly because we can put our A2A maneuvering into one of two basic categories with respect to our adversary.
One category is when our fighter "turns better but accelerates worse" than our adversary. In this case, we refer to our fighter as an angles fighter. The second category is when we "turn worse but accelerate better" than our adversary…that makes us an energy fighter when compared to him."
"Acceleration Performance
With regard to this factor, we are talking both acceleration (ability to increase speed over time…knots per second), as well as top speed (knots per hour). In general, when we talk BnZ capability, we consider top speed more important than acceleration.
Bottom Line…an angles fighter is one that can generate a higher turn rate at a slower airspeed than the aircraft it is being compared to…and an energy fighter is one that can accelerate to a faster top speed than its opponent. In our sim world, we often refer to the angles fight as a "turn and burn" (TnB) and the energy fight as the "boom and zoom" (BnZ).
Remember…the terms are relative only when making comparisons. It is entirely possible for a specific fighter type to be both, depending on its opponent. For example, the P-38 would be an energy fighter when compared to a Zero and an angles fighter when compared to a Me-110."
I have truncated alot here, but I thought these two quotes spoke directly to the argument/discussion re: whether energy fighting was a type of ACM.
The entire link is here: http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_024a.html
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With respect to style, I absolutely think a pilot on here can have a style. By style, I mean a means of executing maneuvers that make them distinguishable from another performing the same maneuver.
I distinctly recall running into the same pilot on two separate occasions. I want to say it was Storch, but I could be wrong. At any rate, this guy did this lag turn thing on my 6 in a very distinctive way. It's hard to describe- it was a way of resetting his plane that I've never seen before.
Several nights later I was dogfighting this guy and as I watched in the rear 6 view I saw that wierd lag reset thing, and I knew it was Storch even before he shot me down.
Dedalos has a distinctive move as well that I've noticed.
For what it's worth.
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Originally posted by Tiger
Holy technicalities batman....
HighG... you keep a journal on your AH sorties? Interesting concept. I'm not quite that devoted to this game, but very interesting indeed.
Yeah pretty nuts huh? Actually, its force of habit. I have a private pilot license in real life and every pilot has a log book. This log book is your life if you are a flyer. I just kinda made a log book for this game. Its really not as involved or time consuming as you may think. Just like in real life, you record the highlights...
For example, an entry may look like this:
SA Est, CAP run on field xx
loadout, fuel, takeoff 1.5 sectors fr. CAP
CAP @ Flt LvL 18
Hard deck 8
Clean kill 109G4 (high aspect beam snap shot)
Egress vector 090, flt LvL 10
Touchdown.
That's it.
BTW, I know its been beat to death here but if there is one thing lower than anything and all people who commit this act deserves a special place in Aces High Hell, is lag cheaters. Long story but I busted someone obviously, purposefully lagging tonight. I was tempted to let him shoot me down just so I could find out who it was. There, horse dead.
HighGTrn
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If you want to find out who someone is, just tap your record film key. ;)