Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FBBone on October 02, 2007, 04:15:52 PM
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Got this off of a different BBS. Sorry if its a repost, the date on the vid is just over a month ago.
Police chase (http://www.officer.com/videonetwork/index.jsp?showid=378811)
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Originally posted by FBBone
Police chase ends badly..................
That's an understatement.
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Linky no worky. :rolleyes:
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That salamander got what he / she deserved.
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all I can say after that is ...wow...
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Part of me says he got what he deserved
And he announced on the radio he was "taking him out"
But part of me sees 3 officers blocking this guy in at the end. Sitting on the hood, blasting away seems excessive to me. The power of adrenalin??
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I think it was either waste the guy or get run over and maimed or killed.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Part of me says he got what he deserved
And he announced on the radio he was "taking him out"
But part of me sees 3 officers blocking this guy in at the end. Sitting on the hood, blasting away seems excessive to me. The power of adrenalin??
"taking him out" most likely referred to disabling the vehicle by ramming it. He had several opportunities to do it early on, but officers usually have to recevie permission to do it.
When they blocked him in he kept trying to run. It was obvious his intent was to do anything necessary to get away. If you start driving off with an officer on your car, expect to be shot.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
"taking him out" most likely referred to disabling the vehicle by ramming it. He had several opportunities to do it early on, but officers usually have to recevie permission to do it.
When they blocked him in he kept trying to run. It was obvious his intent was to do anything necessary to get away. If you start driving off with an officer on your car, expect to be shot.
Not saying he should have started driving off with an officer on the hood of the car but did the driver really need to die for that reason? Don't think so. If the jacka** of an officer is going to jump on the hood of a car then I would suspect then something very bad would happen to that officer not the other way around, crap like that is for the movies not real life. Deploy tire spikes, shoot the tires, but to jump on the hood of a car that has not stopped after being rammed, and after already taking shots at the car... Officer jack** was pumped and looking for a reason to fire off his little gun. It's over zealous officers like that that give ALL PD's a bad name. God help him
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I think that anyone that runs from the cops, therefore putting the public in danger, should be pulled out of the car when the chase ends and summarily shot until dead.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
"taking him out" most likely referred to disabling the vehicle by ramming it. He had several opportunities to do it early on, but officers usually have to recevie permission to do it.
When they blocked him in he kept trying to run. It was obvious his intent was to do anything necessary to get away. If you start driving off with an officer on your car, expect to be shot.
Ok I can buy that.
But I noticed the shooting started even before the cop jumped on the hood.
Actually when they thought they had him and he turned around and ran again
Just curious why?
Not saying it wasn't a just shooting. Just wondering why he started shooting in the first place.
The initial claim by the cop of "he" just tried to ram me" in the beginning of the video was a bit bogus.
Well exaggerated anyway.
It was obvious that wasn't the intent but rather to just get away.
If he wanted to ram the cop he easily could have.
Now Later on its unclear if he did indeed try to ram the cops.
But it is clear he was trying to drive away with the cop on the hood.
which raises another question.
Why did the cop climb on the hood of the car?
Unless the car was coming at him and he was avoiding trying to be run down by climbing on top of the car.
Which would make sense.
Climbing on the hood of a car that contains a driver that might decide to take off is never the brightest move.
Had the driver decided to floor it backwards instead of forwards. The cop would have been in a world of hurt.
In the end I'm not quite sure what to make of the video.
Somehow I think there is more to it.
I don't think cops generally start shooting at a car just for trying to get away.
Thee are safer ways for everyone involved to go about it.
So I think there must be more to it.
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http://www.officer.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=37661
BLUE ASH, Ohio --
A driver was killed and two officers were injured Tuesday after a police chase and shooting.
Daryl Black, a passenger, said all he wanted was a ride to the store. What he got instead was the wildest ride of his life.
Already, he's having nightmares, newsnet5.com partner WLWT-TV in Cincinnati reported.
"I thought I was a goner," Black said.
Black, 28, was riding with Charles Bennett, 37, when Blue Ash police tried to pull him over for erratic driving near Sycamore High School. Instead, Bennett made a run for it.
Wednesday night, Black watched the dashcam video from the Blue Ash cruisers that chased Bennett early Tuesday morning.
"What I am thinking here is, 'Get me out of this car … you're going to kill us," he said.
Black said he didn't know that the car was stolen. He said that he tried to grab the wheel, but couldn't.
Black said Bennett never said a word during the entire chase.
Eventually, after being hit by police cruisers at least twice, Bennett's car stopped and an officer jumped on the hood of the car, firing through the windshield.
"I thought I was a dead man, you know? I thought he was going to shoot me when he was up on that thing. I kept on saying 'No, no, no, don't shoot!" Black said.
Bennett died at Bethesda North Hospital, but Black was unharmed and police quickly determined he was an innocent bystander.
"Going through a chase and then watching an officer shoot several shots in a window, when you think the next bullet is for you, it's unreal," Black said.
The three officers who fired shots during the pursuit are on administrative leave.
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Originally posted by 68Raptor
Not saying he should have started driving off with an officer on the hood of the car but did the driver really need to die for that reason? Don't think so. If the jacka** of an officer is going to jump on the hood of a car then I would suspect then something very bad would happen to that officer not the other way around, crap like that is for the movies not real life. Deploy tire spikes, shoot the tires, but to jump on the hood of a car that has not stopped after being rammed, and after already taking shots at the car... Officer jack** was pumped and looking for a reason to fire off his little gun. It's over zealous officers like that that give ALL PD's a bad name. God help him
I woudnt go that far.
Though perhaps it is true. We dont know as there is alot not in the video we cant see.
Maybe the driver pointed or showed a gun
When the cop first starts shooting at the car we cant see the car. Only the cop shooting.
I seem to remember that in this state these types of high speed chases are not allowed anymore for the safety of everyone.
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excessive force
:o
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Untill we know what it was that caused the cops to first start shooting.
I've got to side with the cops or I should sayat least reserve judgement untill we know all the details.
To me something seems off.
It doesnt make a lot of sense to me for the cops to start shooting at a vehicle trying to flee without further cause.
I've been pretty outspoken when I see cops doing what I feel is a clear wrong. Cops tazing a kid in the library lobby for refusing to leave. and another running a stop sign and killing to girls. Are two examples.
In each case I spoke out on what I felt and still feel was clearly wrong.
In this case I only dont have enough information to even attempt any kind of judgement.
Too much that just doesnt make sense.
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I would assume a gun of any sort would have been mentioned in the news story that came with it. The only other thing I can imagine would be the driver trying to run over a officer. That would justify the use of deadly force. We don't know that. An officer jumping on the hood or putting himself (on purpose) in the path of the vehicle only forces the end shown on the tape. Not knowing all the details we can't know but given what we can see and read in the story it seems over the top. Only the jury will actually decide on the outcome.
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One of the first things the officer said was " he tried to ram me"
The perp was obviously IMHO just trying to evade the officer, but let's kill him anyway.
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The Cop didn't have to jump on to the hood and 1 shot might have been enough...........Where was his stun gun??
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Originally posted by Cougar68
If you start driving off with an officer on your car, expect to be shot.
yup!
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gotta agree with sky and cougar there. plus Stealing cars is Baa...aaaad
Sheep references anyone?
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Good thing for the passenger that the leo shot from the hood rather than in the side window.
I don't think that I would have gotten up there though.
shamus
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
The Cop didn't have to jump on to the hood and 1 shot might have been enough...........Where was his stun gun??
How would you feel if they let him go, then he plowed into a minivan carrying a family of four?
Bronk
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pit him box him in order him out of the car or go in and grab him
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Answer my question.
Bronk
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it would depend on how bad the accident is....
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So if its just cuts and scrapes thats ok?
Bronk
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accidents happen...
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
accidents happen...
It's not an accident when fleeing police in a stolen car. There is a criminal charge for it I believe... just can't think of it.
Adult life is going to be very hard for you, if you don't realize there are consequences to actions.
Bronk
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I was referring to the yo the family in the mini van...
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So am I. You run into someone while committing a crime, thats another criminal charge.
Bronk
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so at least he would be behind bars:aok
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
accidents happen...
There isn't any such thing on the road as an "accident". There are crashes and they are always caused by some human fallicy.
Mark
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Nice way to avoid what I asked. Too bad for that family of four ehh.
Tard
Bronk
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Unless the guy in the car was armed, the force was excessive.
'Tried to ram me?' BS. He tried to get by to escape. Announcing that on the radio put the rest of the cops into kill mode, but what's a little embelishment between friends, right?
The officer who executed the suspect put himself onto the hood of the car--is that something they teach in the academy? To put yourself into a situation where using deadly is the only way out?
Yeah, the suspect was a criminal, but his death could have been avoided. And yeah, I'm telling them how to do their jobs because it's clear that its adrenaline, not training and brains that these guys depended on.
Watching police action such as this makes me pray for the day that somebody either invents a robot to replace them, or find a way to de-active their adrenal glands.
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So if its just cuts and scrapes thats ok?
cuts and scrapes would be acceptable as they would be treated and released from a local hospital.Insurance could cover cost of damage to vehicle
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Originally posted by Mark Luper
There isn't any such thing on the road as an "accident". There are crashes and they are always caused by some human fallicy.
Mark
We are told when we write ambulance reports to call them MVI (motor vehicle Incidents) instead of MVA (motor vehicle accidents) to show what you just said.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
[If you start driving off with an officer on your car, expect to be shot./B]
Originally posted by SkyRock
yup!
True but also jumping on the hood of a car that might take off at any moment should be ranked in the top 5 stupid things to do.
Even for a cop
Save that kind of stuff for Mel Gibson and the Leathal Weapon movies
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Originally posted by Bronk
How would you feel if they let him go, then he plowed into a minivan carrying a family of four?
Bronk
For that matter if they had let him go and
If they hadnt continued on chasing him.
there is a good possibility he wouldnt have been traveling at a high rate of speed nor would he plow into a minivan containing a family of 4.
hypothetically speaking
That is the exact reason why alot of places frown upon that kind of chase.
Too many bad thngs can happen.
The driver is at risk, the cops are at risk and the general public is at risk.
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Originally posted by Bronk
It's not an accident when fleeing police in a stolen car. There is a criminal charge for it I believe... just can't think of it.
Adult life is going to be very hard for you, if you don't realize there are consequences to actions.
Bronk
Ok question to you.
Is it worth that risk by continuing to chase the stolen car if he is going to try to get away at high speed?
Is getting the bad guy with the stolen car more important then the safety of everyone else on the road?
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Originally posted by Neubob
Unless the guy in the car was armed, the force was excessive.
'Tried to ram me?' BS. He tried to get by to escape. Announcing that on the radio put the rest of the cops into kill mode, but what's a little embelishment between friends, right?
He was armed with a 3500 pound missile. The car and the way he was driving are way more dangerous than a little handgun.
It's easy for us to look at sterile dashcam video footage from our computers and judge how the officer reacted. The difference between intentionally ramming and just trying to get away is only a few degrees of steering input. The officer was trying to direct his partners to him and still try to maintain the chase. I'm willing to forgive a few degrees of steering. That comment definitely did not put the officers in "kill mode." What brought about the decision to fire was the willingness of the driver to use his vehicle as a deadly weapon. At that point his time ran out.
to those that have the courage to put their lives on the line in service of the public day in and day out. They have stones of steel to put themselves in the position to make the kinds of decisions we'll argue about on bulletin boards.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ok question to you.
Is it worth that risk by continuing to chase the stolen car if he is going to try to get away at high speed?
Is getting the bad guy with the stolen car more important then the safety of everyone else on the road?
Yes it is. Think what you're saying through. If the criminals know that the police cannot continue a chase that gets dangerous, what will happen? They'll make the chase as dangerous as possible so the police have to let them go. What if it's not a stolen car and it's a guy with a body in the backseat that nobody's noticed yet? If all he has to do to get away is run a few stop signs and drive really fast what's the point of even having police cars?
All the officers knew at that point was that the car was stolen. They had no idea what was inside. If you take away the officer's abillity to pursue you might as well just sit them on a street corner with a sign that says "hey you! Stop!" It'll be just about as effective.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ok question to you.
Is it worth that risk by continuing to chase the stolen car if he is going to try to get away at high speed?
Is getting the bad guy with the stolen car more important then the safety of everyone else on the road?
At 20 minutes after midnight , and what looked to be less than crowded streets , I'd say the chase was ok. But thats just me.
There were things going on outside of that camera.
Perhaps the officer went to the car and tried to apprehend the guy only to have the car drove at him and he couldn't get out of the way so he jumped. I didn't see for sure. If that is what happened then shootiing the person was rough but probably warranted.
It's a tough deal all around. But , I have to go with the officer until proven by eveidence otherwise. If he acted in a vigilante way then by all means he should pay the price. Like I said...lots of things WE don't see.
It's hard to fix stupid.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
Yes it is. Think what you're saying through. If the criminals know that the police cannot continue a chase that gets dangerous, what will happen? They'll make the chase as dangerous as possible so the police have to let them go. What if it's not a stolen car and it's a guy with a body in the backseat that nobody's noticed yet? If all he has to do to get away is run a few stop signs and drive really fast what's the point of even having police cars?
All the officers knew at that point was that the car was stolen. They had no idea what was inside. If you take away the officer's abillity to pursue you might as well just sit them on a street corner with a sign that says "hey you! Stop!" It'll be just about as effective.
About 350 people die in the United States every year in car crashes resulting from police pursuits, and one-third of them are innocent bystanders
The study by Fred Rivara and Chris Mack, of Harborview's Injury Prevention and Research Center, was published in the April issue of the journal Injury Prevention.
It examined all traffic fatalities in the nation from 1994 to 2002 and found 2,654 fatal crashes resulting from police pursuits, with 3,146 deaths.
Of those deaths, 1,048 were of people who were not in fleeing vehicles — occupants in another vehicle, pedestrians or bicyclists — and 40 were police officers.
I will agree there are times when a chase is necessary.
Im just not sure a stolen car is one of them.
Stolen cars tend to turn up sooner or later.
They can be replaced,
and Insurance pays for a good deal of them
Money cant replace a life.
Put out an APB and keep track of his direction of travel. then close in on him when it places the least amount of risk on everyone.
You say what if he had a body? True but he didnt.
But for that matter hat if he ran a redlight trying ot get away because of the chase and smashed into that minivan and killed the occupants?
Sounds to me your talking more ego then anything else.
A Prolonged chase at high speed is hardly protecting me.
Even at 3:AM I am sometimes on the road.
im not saying dont give chase. But there comes a point in time where its better to break it off for everyones own good. including the cops
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Originally posted by RedTop
At 20 minutes after midnight , and what looked to be less than crowded streets , I'd say the chase was ok. But thats just me.
There were things going on outside of that camera.
Perhaps the officer went to the car and tried to apprehend the guy only to have the car drove at him and he couldn't get out of the way so he jumped. I didn't see for sure. If that is what happened then shootiing the person was rough but probably warranted.
It's a tough deal all around. But , I have to go with the officer until proven by eveidence otherwise. If he acted in a vigilante way then by all means he should pay the price. Like I said...lots of things WE don't see.
It's hard to fix stupid.
I've been saying that all along.
Im not passing any kind of judgement in this specific case other then maybe jumping on the hood of the car which is incredibly stupid.
But We dont know all the why's and wherefores to that either.
too much we dont see
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Originally posted by Cougar68
He was armed with a 3500 pound missile. The car and the way he was driving are way more dangerous than a little handgun.
It's easy for us to look at sterile dashcam video footage from our computers and judge how the officer reacted. The difference between intentionally ramming and just trying to get away is only a few degrees of steering input. The officer was trying to direct his partners to him and still try to maintain the chase. I'm willing to forgive a few degrees of steering. That comment definitely did not put the officers in "kill mode." What brought about the decision to fire was the willingness of the driver to use his vehicle as a deadly weapon. At that point his time ran out.
to those that have the courage to put their lives on the line in service of the public day in and day out. They have stones of steel to put themselves in the position to make the kinds of decisions we'll argue about on bulletin boards.
Oh Please, cry my a ****ing river. Those cops had 3 of their own 4000 lb missiles with which to stop the suspect before it was time to start leaping on to hoods.
"Tried to ram me."--yeah that broadcast over the radio did nothing to raise adrenaline levels past the point of rationality.
The driver of the car was a criminal for what he did, and stupid one, but where in the cop's training does it say to jump on the car and open fire? Is that standard operating procedure? Did that move save lives and protect society? The cop made the situation deadly by doing what he did. For himself, primarily, and ultimately, for the suspect he executed.
Just because a man is paid by the state to carry a gun does not make him an automatic hero. There may be heroes among them, but there are also idiots out there whose main cause to join up was some sort of hormonal imbalance or psychological inadequacy. In my life I've seen plenty of both, and I'll save my for the former.... And unless there is something in that video that we did not see, then the guy on the hood is an example of the latter.
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That's the best video I've ever seen in my life. The guy needed to be stopped at any cost. He was driving so fast, seriously endangering everyone, and was so determined to keep going, that I think the cops had no choice to do *anything* necessary to stop him.
They rammed his car multiple times, tried to box him in, and it simply wasn't working. The perp had plenty of time to figure out that they were very serious about stopping him, and he kept upping the stakes.
Why is anyone suprised that cops resorted to shooting such a dangerous person when everything else they tried didn't work and the perp kept escalating things?
The cops ought to get a medal for removing a very dangerous person from the streets. I don't much care how they do it, people like that need to be stopped when there is no question that they are dangerous and are intent to continue their criminal activities at all costs.
Oh yea...
IN.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Answer my question.
Bronk
There is no doubt he needed to be stopped. Disabling the vehicle by using any number of ways.. I.e. they had him stopped and time to take out the tires. He was not going to go easy.. officer on the hood with a gun in his face and he still kept driving.... perhaps a single shot to shatter glass or nightstick to clean out the driver side window glass then taser or tazer him to the point of him drooling on himself.
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Idiot stole a car..... kill him.... take out the trash.
Good Job
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Idiot stole a car..... kill him.... take out the trash.
Good Job
Due process is overrated, I agree.
Who better to dispense justice than the guys with the itchy trigger fingers.
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I will never understand the love some folks feel toward a criminal. They are no different than any other rabid animal that needs to be put down. From the moment those lights came that individual had plenty of opputunities to stop.
Wolfy
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Originally posted by Wolf14
I will never understand the love some folks feel toward a criminal. They are no different than any other rabid animal that needs to be put down. From the moment those lights came that individual had plenty of opputunities to stop.
Wolfy
What is this love for summary execution?
The cops are supposed to be professionals, not hunters. The use of deadly force is supposed to be a last resort. They had 3 cars with which to force him to stop. They chose not too.
But you're right. We should have just stuck with the lynch mob. Most of the people they execute will be guilty... Those that aren't will just be the eggs that need to be broken to make the omelet.
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Well, at least this cop made sure he doesn't miss and didn't endanger the whole neightborhood. It was a bit different case when several cops fired over hundred bullets at a pickup truck after an officer slipped and his partner thought he was shot - the driver was lightly wounded and the neightborhood had been peppered with bullets through the houses.
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Originally posted by Wolf14
I will never understand the love some folks feel toward a criminal. They are no different than any other rabid animal that needs to be put down. From the moment those lights came that individual had plenty of opputunities to stop.
Wolfy
It's all about due process.
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I really don't know what possessed that officer to get on the hood of the car. Did he think he was Mel Gibson making Lethal Weapon IV? I really don't see how lethal force is justified here, granted there is a limited view from the dash cams but even Jeffrey Dahmer got due process. This perpetrator was denied that by the use of lethal force.
In the very beginning the first officer says the guy tried to ram him, I with others who say he was just trying to get away and imo any *ram* was nearly caused by the officers driving.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Well, at least this cop made sure he doesn't miss and didn't endanger the whole neightborhood. It was a bit different case when several cops fired over hundred bullets at a pickup truck after an officer slipped and his partner thought he was shot - the driver was lightly wounded and the neightborhood had been peppered with bullets through the houses.
I go shooting with LE personnel, most of them need to get that close.
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So the recap is this...
Cop "embellishes" what happened ("He tried to ram me!")...
Criminal flees at high speed
Cant tell if cop 2 put out a spike strip or not?
Cops couldnt box/ram him in
When it looked like they finally had him, the "embellisher" just jumps on the hood and blasts away.
There's a lot of gaps in what happened at the end. Was there a gun? Dont know
But that "sterile" little camera seems to show a lot of areas where the cops couldve done better. As someone else said, claiming the suspect "tried to ram me" when he didnt certainly put all the cops on edge and affected the outcome.
It'll be interesting to see what happens.