Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Xargos on October 03, 2007, 06:00:05 AM
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Got this e-mail, sorry if it's already been posted.
A stranger stood at the gate of Hell
And the Devil himself had answered the bell
He looked him over from head to toe
And said “My friend, I’d like to know
What you have done in the line of sin
To entitle you to come within?”
Then Franklin D. with his usual guile
Stepped forth and flashed his toothy smile.
“When I took over in ’33,
A nation’s faith was mine”, said he
“I promised this and I promised that,
And I calmed them down with a fireside chat.
I spent their money on fishing trips
And I fished from the decks of their battleships.
I gave them jobs on the WPA
Then raised their taxes and took it away.
I raised their wages – then closed their shops,
I killed their pigs and buried their crops.
I double-crossed both young and old
And still the folks my praises told.
I brought back beer and what do you think?
I taxed it so high they couldn’t drink.
I furnished money with good loans
When they missed a payment I took their homes.
When I wanted to punish people, you know,
I put my wife on the radio.
I paid them to let their farms lie still
And imported foodstuffs from Brazil.
And curtailed crops when I felt mean
And shipped in corn from the Argentine.
When they started to worry, stew and fret,
I’d get them to chanting the alphabet.
With the AAA and the NLB
The WPA and the CCC.
With these many units I got their goats
And still I crammed it down their throats
While the taxpayers chewed their fingernails.
When the organizers needed dough
I signed up plants for the CIO.
I ruined their jobs and I ruined their health
And I put the screws on the rich man’s wealth.
And some who couldn’t stand the gaff
Would call me up and how I’d laugh!
When they got too hot on certain things
I’d pack up and head for Warm Springs.
I ruined their country, their homes, and then
Laid the blame on the ‘nine old men’.”
Now Franklin talked both long and loud
And the Devil stood with his head bowed.
At last he said “Let’s make it clear,
You’ll have to move, you can’t stay here.
For once you’ve mingled with this mob
I’ll have to hunt myself a job.”
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the communist bastige was easily the worst president the US has ever had.
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maybe... but at least he had an excuse.. he was pure evil but it was dire times and some good came from it... not near enough to offset the evil but...some good.
LBJ tho... he was the ultimate commie evil pres... worst ever. No excuse for what he did to the constitution and the country.
lazs
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The country is still suffering from what FDR did.
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The country is still suffering from what Lincoln did too but.. the real hammer blows for no good reason all came from LBJ and the "great society".
lazs
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I honestly do not know enough about the three terms of the FDR Presidency to say for certain, in my mind, one way or the other as to whether he was a good leader or a poor leader, but I am quite sure that for four terrible years he was considered by most free people in the world as the single most inspiring human being alive. That ought to be worth something to consider when viewing the man as a destructive and negative force in american history.
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the damage LBJ did,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Society
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Originally posted by Yeager
I honestly do not know enough about the three terms of the FDR Presidency to say for certain, in my mind, one way or the other as to whether he was a good leader or a poor leader, but I am quite sure that for four terrible years he was considered by most free people in the world as the single most inspiring human being alive. That ought to be worth something to consider when viewing the man as a destructive and negative force in american history.
The same could be said about Hitler. That doesn't mean he should be considered as a good president.
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"but I am quite sure that for four terrible years he was considered by most free people in the world as the single most inspiring human being alive."
The same could be said about Hitler. That doesn't mean he should be considered as a good president.
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:huh
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It's hard to believe that so many people hate the greatest leader that their country ever had.
I say it not only because he was a member of the Great Three and was probably much closed as an "ally" then sir Winston, but because of what he did with the US after the depression. We badly need such a leader now. In the 30s JVS didn't have time, now it looks like we don't have to hurry, so we need FDR. Damn, JVS will be better then the current regime in Russia, anyone can be better, anyone who does something!
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Originally posted by Boroda
It's hard to believe that so many people hate the greatest leader that their country ever had.
you think he was great because he gave the USSR eastern europe.
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because he gave the USSR eastern europe.
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FDR could not have given them what he did not own as his own. If you want to play "pin the blame on the donkey" you could just as easily blame Truman. Fact is that the USSR had just lost 20 million people to Hitlers european invasion (ww2), and had previously lost several million to an earlier european invasion (ww1), and had been invaded by europe on several earlier occassions.......(Napolean to name one). The USSR finally had the military muscle to build a "NO MORE INVASION" fence.......I cant say that I blame them. Europe had caused Russia tremendous grief and they finally had the strength to say "enough of that invasion crap already".
Try to think outside the box man, no one person has the market on reality cornered. There are other larger perspectives available to the mind that seeks a greater knowledge.
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It's not surprising that a communist thinks a socialist president was the greatest we ever had.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's not surprising that a communist thinks a socialist president was the greatest we ever had.
Who's communist?
If I said in another thread that I'll vote for Communists doesn't make me a Communist myself.
Seriously, I first learned that there are Americans hating FDR when I read Heinlein's books. But I never saw anyone giving an alternative to what FDR have done. Even pushing the US into War turned out to be a decision that finally made the US a first-class player in global politics and one of the two greatest powers on the planet at that time.
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Originally posted by storch
the communist bastige was easily the worst president the US has ever had.
Absolute truth - Lincoln, FDR and Johnson are all up there as the worst.
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That's the only thing he did right. But it's probably the only capitalistic thing he did. Every other policy he implemented was the socialist answer to a market crash. Every single policy, while it should have, in the communist's and socialist's eyes, pulled the country out of the depression exponentially made it worse.
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boroda.. yep.. laser beat me to it but... yeah.. I think you are a commie too.
If you vote for a commie you are a commie.
lazs
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I hate to see this anyone in this country call Franklin Delano Roosevelt the worst president ever, and anyone that does has no right to call themselves an American. He ranks in our top ten presidents, beside Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, and a few others. He pulled us out of the Great Depression, helped the British fight off the Germans to keep them away from us, was very good at political matters and settling the disputes that would have broken apart the Big Three, thus losing the war. Anybody that calls FDR our worst or second worst president has absolutely no intelligence of what he did and what he was. I sincerely hope you find a very good doctor, and find one quick, because there is something seriously wrong with you that may cause your untimely demise.
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Originally posted by McFarland
I hate to see this anyone in this country call Franklin Delano Roosevelt the worst president ever, and anyone that does has no right to call themselves an American. He ranks in our top ten presidents, beside Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, and a few others. He pulled us out of the Great Depression, helped the British fight off the Germans to keep them away from us, was very good at political matters and settling the disputes that would have broken apart the Big Three, thus losing the war. Anybody that calls FDR our worst or second worst president has absolutely no intelligence of what he did and what he was. I sincerely hope you find a very good doctor, and find one quick, because there is something seriously wrong with you that may cause your untimely demise.
:rofl McFarland, you just keep getting better and better.
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FDR gave us jobs, he saved us from starving. To call him our worst president is to call yourself un-American in the same breath. I would like to see you come to East Tennessee and announce that out loud. You won't get to the state line alive, that's a promise. FDR kept the Germans from using Britain as a jump off point to take Canada and America. He kept the Big Three together. He brought us out of a depression. There was a reason he was elected four times. If you aren't smart enough to figure it out, I sure can't help you. And I highly doubt anyone can.
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I hate to see this anyone in this country call Franklin Delano Roosevelt the best president ever, and anyone that does has no right to call themselves an American. He ranks in our lowest ten presidents, besides Lyndon Johnson and Jimmy Carter and a few others. He sold our souls to the highest bidders, compromised our country and used a world conflict to get us out of the Great Depression. Sure, WE helped the British fight off the Germans to keep them away from us, was very good at manipulating people for political matters and settling the disputes that would have broken apart the Big Three, thus losing the war. Anybody that calls FDR our Best or second Best president has absolutely no intelligence of what he did and what he was. I sincerely hope you find a very good doctor, and find one quick, because there is something seriously wrong with you that may cause your untimely demise.
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The movie Pearl Harbor made him seem like a good President though?
:huh
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Give, give, give is all some people care about, instead of earning it. FDR and Wilson are two presidents who did the most harm to this country.
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Originally posted by Boroda
It's hard to believe that so many people hate the greatest leader that their country ever had.
I say it not only because he was a member of the Great Three and was probably much closed as an "ally" then sir Winston, but because of what he did with the US after the depression. We badly need such a leader now. In the 30s JVS didn't have time, now it looks like we don't have to hurry, so we need FDR. Damn, JVS will be better then the current regime in Russia, anyone can be better, anyone who does something!
They're still upset Wendell and Dewey lost. Talk about holding grudges.
He did what needed to be done at the time to raise our country out of the gutter we had found ourselves in. Without him and Lincoln before him, our country wouldn't be what it is today.
But we all have our opinions and none of your opinions are any more valid than mine. *shrug*
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
They're still upset Wendell and Dewey lost. Talk about holding grudges.
He did what needed to be done at the time to raise our country out of the gutter we had found ourselves in. Without him and Lincoln before him, our country wouldn't be what it is today.
But we all have our opinions and none of your opinions are any more valid than mine. *shrug*
ack-ack
Our country today is a socialist infested rat hole because of what FDR did.
FDR and Lincoln had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time. It wasn't them that solved the problems, but external people and events.
While they didn't solve the problems, they clearly made them worse.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Our country today is a socialist infested rat hole because of what FDR did.
FDR and Lincoln had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time. It wasn't them that solved the problems, but external people and events.
While they didn't solve the problems, they clearly made them worse.
Rhetoric unrings bells so well. Ahem ;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. yep.. laser beat me to it but... yeah.. I think you are a commie too.
If you vote for a commie you are a commie.
You probably don't watch the parliament elections in Russia. With comrade Putin being the number one, two and three (just like Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in a federal list of United Russia. I respected him, but I never voted for him. Now he have lost my respect by covering up this giant trade-union of thieves, the United Russia.
Commies are the only opposition that has a chance to get into parliament. And now we hear rumors that they'll probably be canceled from elections. If it will happen, like they did with Rodina party on Moscow city council elections 2 years ago - I'll be the first to wave the red flag.
Communist Party now is just a bunch of morons, same crooks as everybody else, but they are the only force that doesn't praise Putin and will probably try to make some problems to Big Thieves.
BTW, doesn't an idea of "voting for commies" contradict what you have been told before? :D Do you have an option of voting for Communists in your so-called "free world"? ;)
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Hey Boroda, how do you feel about FDR turning back the German refugee ships as part of the isolationist policy?
Do you think that was a virtuous thing to do?
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Yay! More party-line opposition bashing!! What would the O-club be without it? It's like two babies in a sandbox screaming over the same toy.
*turns a hose on the conservative and liberal hardliners both*
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Our country today is a socialist infested rat hole because of what FDR did.
FDR and Lincoln had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time. It wasn't them that solved the problems, but external people and events.
While they didn't solve the problems, they clearly made them worse.
I have read several books about FDR, so I may be a little bit biased, I admit it, and I will praise FDR as a member of the Big Three. And I am from a country that saw a crisis much worse then a Depression in last 15 years.
But can you show me any study, "what if" or even any list of what he have done wrong and what had to be done instead?
Just like: "FDR did so and so, he was wrong because of this, and doing that could be much better".
IMHO "capitalism" is effective only when you a) base your prosperity on robbing others (social groups or countries/colonies), b) don't have an emergency situation that needs urgent solutions. It pretty much explains the current relative prosperity of the Golden Billion. And this prosperity is exaggerated, believe me.
It's funny, but Wilson and FDR were the two men who literally made America a world power, as it is now, from a provincial rogue country into a global player.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Do you have an option of voting for Communists in your so-called "free world"? ;)
As long as they have enough signatures to get themselves on the ballot they can run in any election.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Neubob
Hey Boroda, how do you feel about FDR turning back the German refugee ships as part of the isolationist policy?
Do you think that was a virtuous thing to do?
I never thought about it. If it did happen - then I'd like to see the details, like dates and if it was really FDR's decision. I have always looked at it as at another anti-american propaganda "hook" not worth as an argument.
I am now searching for some quotes from Harry Truman. Not the famous "Let's help the Russians when the Germans are winning and the Germans when the Russians are winning. So each may kill off as many as possible of the other", he said more brilliant things. I wonder what could happen if FDR stayed alive. Germany probably could be re-united by 1949 as well as Korea, and the whole Cold War couldn't happen.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Our country today is a socialist infested rat hole because of what FDR did.
FDR and Lincoln had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time. It wasn't them that solved the problems, but external people and events.
While they didn't solve the problems, they clearly made them worse.
So you think that Stephan Douglas would have kept this country together? Or are you implying because Lincoln was elected he was the root cause of the Civil War because he wasn't going to appease the South on slavery like Douglas?
Or if Wilkens had won in 1940 and further promoted the non-interventionism/isolationism that things would have been better? There probably wouldn't have been a Land-Lease program which then would have probably resulted in a very different Europe than what we have today.
These two were the right man at the right time, just like George Washington was the right man at the right time. Of course, I'm sure you've issues with Washington as well.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
As long as they have enough signatures to get themselves on the ballot they can run in any election.
Really? :D
Was it like that back in the late-40s and 50s? Did anything change dramatically in your "200-years-old democracy"?
:rofl
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FDR knew the japs were a coming to bomb Pearl and he let it happen, the bastidge :furious
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Originally posted by Boroda
IMHO "capitalism" is effective only when you a) base your prosperity on robbing others (social groups or countries/colonies), b) don't have an emergency situation that needs urgent solutions. It pretty much explains the current relative prosperity of the Golden Billion. And this prosperity is exaggerated, believe me.
Based off of this paragraph alone, there is nothing that I can say that can convince you otherwise. Just the mere idea that you think Capitalism is robbery shows that your socialist bias is so ingrained that there is nothing that can convince you that socialism isn't the answer.
Every single thing that FDR did before the military build up was a socialist solution to fix the problem. NOTHING worked. It took FREE TRADE Capitalism and the need for a war time economy to pull the US out of the depression. Again, just like Lincoln, FDR was in the right place at the right time. There could have been a trained monkey behind the oval office desk named bobo doing a better job then FDR.
Hell, even the retard Clinton's economic plans were MILES better than FDR. What did Clinton do? Nothing. He did nothing because that's all that is needed for a market to survive and prosper.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Really? :D
Was it like that back in the late-40s and 50s? Did anything change dramatically in your "200-years-old democracy"?
:rofl
The Communist Party of the United States of America (CPUSA) has never been outlawed. The party also played a major role in the labor movement of the '20s and '40s. It wasn't until pretty much after WW2 and during the Red Scare of the late '40s and '50s that it almost became "criminal" and "treasonous" to be a card carrying member of the CPUSA and pretty much destroyed the party as any real political force.
So yes, they were able to get on the ballot if they had the signatures to get them on it. I don't think though that there have been any Communists that were elected to Congress or any other national political office in recent memory but they do enjoy some success occasionally on the state and local level.
Today, they are pretty much a fringe political force delegated to the sidelines with other fringe parties like the Peace and Freedom Party, Green Party, Libertarians, etc...
I believe the only political groups that are outlawed inthe U.S. are the National Socialists and other white supremist splinter groups. Though some my fellow Republican brethren would like every political group other than the Republican Party be outlawed.
ack-ack
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Though some my fellow Republican brethren would like every political group other than the Republican Party be outlawed.
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ssshhhhhhhh...the walls have ears :noid
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
FREE TRADE Capitalism and the need for a war time economy
This two things are incompatible, isn't it obvious?
Please tell me when the US ever had "war time economy" in it's history.
What FDR did was stimulating US economy by pushing it to war, to perfect Government-Capitalism, forcing the US industry to extend it's markets.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The Communist Party of the United States of America (CPUSA) has never been outlawed.
Tell this to Hollywood Ten. Not outlawed, just it's possible members being deprived of their basic Constitutional rights.
I wonder when I'll stop being surprised here. PREVED!!! :rofl
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April 5th 1933, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued a treasonous Executive Order (http://www.libertyforlife.com/eye-openers/us_executive_orders.htm) ordering citizens to hand their gold and gold certificates to the private Federal Reserve Bank: Executive Order 6102 (http://www.libertyforlife.com/eye-openers/us-roosevelt-gold-theft.htm): "Section 2. All persons are hereby required to deliver on or before May a, 1933, to a Federal Reserve Bank or a branch or agency thereof or to any member bank of the Federal Reserve System all gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates now owned by them or coming into their ownership on or before April 28, 1933"
"Section 9. Whoever willfully violates any provision of this Executive Order or of these regulations or of any rule, regulation or license issued thereunder may be fined not more than $10,000, or, if a natural person, may be imprisoned for not more than ten years, or both"
FDR proceeded to implement the "New Deal" which converted the United States of America to the United Socialist States of America. Instituting pure socialism in Social Security, the FCC to control the airwaves, the SEC to control banking and eliminate any potential competitors to the private Federal Reserve Bank.
Source (http://www.libertyforlife.com/banking/federal_reserve_bank.html)
FDR was one of the biggest thieves of the past century. But I guess people who don't want to earn a living or are unwilling to save for the future would see him as a hero since he gave them money that other people earned.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Was it like that back in the late-40s and 50s?
CPUSA Presidential Tickets
1924 - William Z. Foster & Ben Gitlow
1928 - William Z. Foster & Ben Gitlow
1932 - William Z. Foster & James W. Ford
1936 - Earl Browder & James W. Ford
1940 - Earl Browder & James W. Ford
1948 - no candidates, but supported Henry Wallace, the Progressive candidate
1952 - no candidates, but supported Vincent Hallinan, the Progressive candidate
1968 - Charlene Mitchell & Michael Zagarell
1972 - Gus Hall & Jarvis Tyner
1976 - Gus Hall & Jarvis Tyner
1980 - Gus Hall & Angela Davis
1984 - Gus Hall & Angela Davis
No one prevented them from fielding candidates.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Tell this to Hollywood Ten. Not outlawed, just it's possible members being deprived of their basic Constitutional rights.
I wonder when I'll stop being surprised here. PREVED!!! :rofl
From my previous post
It wasn't until pretty much after WW2 and during the Red Scare of the late '40s and '50s that it almost became "criminal" and "treasonous" to be a card carrying member of the CPUSA and pretty much destroyed the party as any real political force.
The McCarthy era is an ugly period on our history and what was done to the "Hollywood Ten" was shameful. Too bad some don't remember that part or choose to ignore it because shades of it are happening today.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Boroda
This two things are incompatible, isn't it obvious?
Please tell me when the US ever had "war time economy" in it's history.
What FDR did was stimulating US economy by pushing it to war, to perfect Government-Capitalism, forcing the US industry to extend it's markets.
Are......
Are you serious? I mean, if you really are serious, and not pulling our chains... :rofl
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Originally posted by Toad
CPUSA Presidential Tickets
1924 - William Z. Foster & Ben Gitlow
1928 - William Z. Foster & Ben Gitlow
1932 - William Z. Foster & James W. Ford
1936 - Earl Browder & James W. Ford
1940 - Earl Browder & James W. Ford
1948 - no candidates, but supported Henry Wallace, the Progressive candidate
1952 - no candidates, but supported Vincent Hallinan, the Progressive candidate
1968 - Charlene Mitchell & Michael Zagarell
1972 - Gus Hall & Jarvis Tyner
1976 - Gus Hall & Jarvis Tyner
1980 - Gus Hall & Angela Davis
1984 - Gus Hall & Angela Davis
1948-1968 no candidates, I guess they just decided not to take part in the elections themselves :D (in 1944 they probably just supported FDR).
Originally posted by Toad
No one prevented them from fielding candidates.
Sure! Angela Davis for vice-president, "no one prevented"... What a perfect example of "justice" towards political opponents!
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Originally posted by Boroda
1948-1968 no candidates, I guess they just decided not to take part in the elections themselves :D (in 1944 they probably just supported FDR).
Sure! Angela Davis for vice-president, "no one prevented"... What a perfect example of "justice" towards political opponents!
Just because none have been elected to National office doesn't mean they're not allowed, just means their platform sucks.
During the Soviet era, how many "democratic" parties were there and allowed to freely run for office? Fact is, the Communist Party was the only tolerated political party in your country during that era. I guess the Soviet model is another "perfect example of justice towards political opponents".
Article 6 of the 1977 Soviet Constitution referred to the party as the "leading and guiding force of Soviet society and the nucleus of its political system, of all state organizations and public organizations." The party, precisely because it was the bearer of Marxist-Leninist ideology, determined the general development of society, directed domestic and foreign policy, and "imparts a planned, systematic, and theoretically substantiated character" to the struggle of the Soviet people for the victory of communism.
We may have a two-party system, but at least we have a choice.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
We may have a two-party system, but at least we have a choice of which Party tells the sheeple what to think, who to associate with, and what to do.
Fixed.
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ack ack and mcfarland... you are in good company for thinking FDR was the bestest pres ever... baroda agrees with you!
baroda.. I guess toad and ack ack answered your question about commies here.. we hate em but we let em run.
FDR did nothing to pull us out of a depression except somehow get the japs to attack us. A "war time ecomomy" is when there is no unemployment and the workforce is about double (counting soldiers) what it was previous... it is the doubling of production and it is the innovation that necessity breeds.
Ack ack... I care nothing about slavery except that it was unconstitutional. Lincoln did damage to the the constitution that has never been repaired... he destroyed states rights and the very idea of a union of states.. it is not a union if it is forced. we are not free states anymore as was intended by the founders.
The south should not have been able to be part of the union if they wanted to enslave men... they most certainly should have had the right to leave the union tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
baroda.. I guess toad and ack ack answered your question about commies here.. we hate em but we let em run.
It's so funny I don't even want to comment. I only advise you to read a Wiki article on Gus Hall and Angela Davis.
Originally posted by lazs2
FDR did nothing to pull us out of a depression except somehow get the japs to attack us. A "war time ecomomy" is when there is no unemployment and the workforce is about double (counting soldiers) what it was previous... it is the doubling of production and it is the innovation that necessity breeds.
In my opinion a "war time economy" is when all the resources, human and material, are switched to winning a war, abandoning anything that isn't vital for the victory.
I still didn't see any suggestions of what had to be done instead of a "New Deal".
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Originally posted by Saxman
Fixed.
I second that. In some way Soviet system was more honest, and, in fact, more democratic then what we have now.
BTW both American parties have the same name, one - in Latin, another - in Greek. Isn't it funny?
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boroda... not sure I understand... our whole economy was switched to a war time economy.. for better or worse.. we supplied the world and built up our country.. not because of FDR but because the japs were dumb enough to attack us and the germans had no choice but to support em.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
but because the japs were desperate enough to attack us and the germans had no choice but to support em.
lazs
I fixed your text. It was pure desperation.
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Uh, this blatant misunderstanding of history is quite funny. The military buildup didn't start at pearl harbor, but several years earlier. At the time, it was up for grabs whether or not we'd actually enter the war (even before it started), but we'd be able to supply the world with everything they'd need.
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... not sure I understand... our whole economy was switched to a war time economy.. for better or worse.. we supplied the world and built up our country.. not because of FDR but because the japs were dumb enough to attack us and the germans had no choice but to support em.
Compare it to Soviet effort. Even German chemical industry produced perfumes until 1944 instead of war materials. I'm sure US business didn't have to employ 12-year old kids.
And you are quite right: both world wars were quite good for the US business. Giant profits. "War economy" as you see it was a great chance to make money, see my post about capitalism above. Capitalism in "war economy" as I see it is useless and dangerous, Russia in WWI showed it. Even placing weapon contracts in the US miserably failed.
Any ideas of an alternative to a "New Deal"?
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Boroda, war as an economic tool is a poor strategy. Yes, you can see big business development and industrialization and realize short term benefits, but it suffers the same weaknesses that centralized control of production (Soviet style) has. When demand must be artificially created, there's an inherent instability. Keeping that demand at the correct level is almost impossible in a system as complicated as a national economy.
Free enterprise can provide better long term growth. Wartime economy is good for short term growth, but like an energy drink or candy bar, there's a crash when you stop consuming.
This is one of the many reasons the Soviet Union failed, their economy was so heavily invested in specific military and state planned objectives that the heterogeneity that brings strength could never appear. In the US, we had a big military industrial complex too during the cold war, but we also developed lawn darts, toasters, an automotive industry, and all the other "non-essential" things demanded through free enterprise that can never prosper in a planned economy.
The end result was an economy better suited to handling change. Think monoculture.
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heterogeneity
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Consisting of dissimilar elements or parts; not homogeneous.
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Chairboy, there is several differences between US and USSR. You didn't have wars for almost 150 years, you don't have 65% of the territory in permafrost zone.
"Free market" simply doesn't work when you are limited with resources and have to run several super-expensive projects to simply survive. XX century showed it. More to say, modern "free market" isn't free any more, when monopolies control mass consciousness through mass-media.
Look, now we have "free market", with a handfull of crooks selling oil and gas from the fields discovered and developed in Soviet times. This resource is extremely limited, because NO privately-owned company can afford such development in that harsh conditions, only the USSR could do it, with the whole country working on planned goals. We are now eating up what remains from Soviet times, and I wonder what will happen when Soviet heritage will be finally finished. That's why I think we need FDR now, it's still not too late, but soon we'll need JVS or simply disappear.
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Yeager: Yep.
Boroda: The Market is driven by demand. Right now, there's a demand that can be met by plundering. When that resource is depleted, the demand will still exist, and the people smart enough to figure out a way to leverage Russia's massive resource potential will respond, prosper, and fill the need.
The difference between us, Boroda, is that you operate from a perspective that assumes that individuals need to be controlled and cannot be trusted. I operate from the perspective that smart people can do great things, and the best environment for them to do that is one where their skills are absolutely necessary and cannot be ignored.
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Boroda, the only thing that guy will do for you, is cull out the surplus population. The guy was a friggin' genocidal maniac on par with Hitler. There's NOTHING in him that modern russia could benefit from.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Uh, this blatant misunderstanding of history is quite funny. The military buildup didn't start at pearl harbor, but several years earlier. At the time, it was up for grabs whether or not we'd actually enter the war (even before it started), but we'd be able to supply the world with everything they'd need.
Yes, your blatant misunderstanding of history is funny.
The US started to mobilize before Pearl Harbor as we had already known that war with Japan was inevitable, we just didn't know when it would come. The only way war would have been avoided with Japan is if we had continued our non-interventionist policies and gave in to Japanese demands and lifted our embargo against them. Since that wasn't going to happen, war was just a matter of time.
ack-ack
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You guys are funny trashing FDR. I suppose GWB is in your Top 5?
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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I don't need to trash FDR he did that on his own.
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Originally posted by rpm
You guys are funny trashing FDR. I suppose GWB is in your Top 5?
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Hardly, GWB's policies on illegals as well as other concessions he has made against conservatives have made him merely average.
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yep.. bush is about average for the above stated reasons and his lack of vetos and allowing spending. He is above average for his supreme court appointments and his allowing the assault weapon ban to sunset and his protection of lawful commerace bill (saving firearms manufacturers from frivolous lawsuits designed to destroy the industry).
borada... the new deal did nothing but leave a legacy of disgusting socialism.. the war itself would have gotten us out of the depression.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
yep.. bush is about average for the above stated reasons and his lack of vetos and allowing spending. He is above average for his supreme court appointments and his allowing the assault weapon ban to sunset and his protection of lawful commerace bill (saving firearms manufacturers from frivolous lawsuits designed to destroy the industry).
borada... the new deal did nothing but leave a legacy of disgusting socialism.. the war itself would have gotten us out of the depression.
lazs
But Bush didn't really let the AWB sunset. Congress did. Bush even said he'd sign it if it were to pass again.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Boroda: The Market is driven by demand. Right now, there's a demand that can be met by plundering. When that resource is depleted, the demand will still exist, and the people smart enough to figure out a way to leverage Russia's massive resource potential will respond, prosper, and fill the need.
Demand is driven by greed: http://www.lovearth.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm
Your happy silly "invisible hand of market" things work when you speak about two beer booths or pizzerias (sorry).
It's impossible to develop new oil fields in Siberia without investments on global scale. Like 5-10 Russian yearly budgets. And you'll get first profit only decades later, when this fields will be almost exhausted. So it goes.
Originally posted by Chairboy
The difference between us, Boroda, is that you operate from a perspective that assumes that individuals need to be controlled and cannot be trusted. I operate from the perspective that smart people can do great things, and the best environment for them to do that is one where their skills are absolutely necessary and cannot be ignored.
Individuals not "controlled" could become ashes in nazi death-camps.
Look, we talk from different positions. You are from a happy warm country that didn't see a war for 150 years. I am from a country that got completely destroyed twice in last 90 years, and has 65% of territory in permafrost zone. Investments in agriculture per production unit here are 3-5 times higher here then in the US. Same thing about industry, this time our distances pay their role.
There is no "universal" decision to any problem.
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boroda.. you are still missing the point.. the reasons we are a "happy warm country" and you are not is because of the different political systems and economic systems.
yours has always sucked. you treat your people like ants and they respond like ants... communism comes too... "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us"
There is no other way.. it has to work like that.. communism is a killer of the human spirit.
you can say that you had to mow down your retreating troops with machine guns in order to win... you can say that you had to allow your troops to rape and plunder... I say that if you had followed our model you would have won without all that. You would not have had to go through the subsequent collapse either.
lazs
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the reasons we are a "happy warm country"
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I remember years back when the russian comic escaped to the west......forget his name, but one of the jokes he had went something like this:
(with thick vodka enhanced russian accent) You know why we russians always so pisst? because weather, you know.... its always so damned cold and miserable there....haha
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Originally posted by lazs2
yours has always sucked.
And it still sucks under "capitalism" that we have now.
Unfortunately, bolshevism was the only progressive system here. Anything else still sucks as it did under Romanovs.
"Practice is a criterion of truth". I have to agree with Lenin on this.
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It seems funny that such a great, progressive system would need to keep its subjects confined within its borders at the barrel of a gun, preventing emigration.
Also, it was strange seeing the happy beneficiaries of the socialist dream tearing down the Berlin wall, celebrating the collapse of the Soviet Union, and so on.
Must have been backwards day...
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Originally posted by Boroda
And it still sucks under "capitalism" that we have now.
Unfortunately, bolshevism was the only progressive system here. Anything else still sucks as it did under Romanovs.
"Practice is a criterion of truth". I have to agree with Lenin on this.
The only good Bolshevik is a dead Bolshevik.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
It seems funny that such a great, progressive system would need to keep its subjects confined within its borders at the barrel of a gun, preventing emigration.
You are always welcome to grow wheat in permafrost.
Preventing emigration is yet another propaganda myth.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Preventing emigration is yet another propaganda myth.
Would like you to state categorically that the Soviet Union and its member-states didn't do anything to prevent people from moving to the USA or other countries?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Individuals not "controlled" could become ashes in nazi death-camps.
Death camps are created by control-seeking governments, not private individuals.
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Originally posted by Boroda
You are always welcome to grow wheat in permafrost.
Preventing emigration is yet another propaganda myth.
Berlin Wall was to prevent a mad rush of Immigration into your workers paradise.
We need a Berlin Style wall along our southern borders. I bet out of work KGB Border Guards and Stasi come cheap.
oh and FDR sucked, him and his whole entitlement system.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Would like you to state categorically that the Soviet Union and its member-states didn't do anything to prevent people from moving to the USA or other countries?
No I wouldn't.
I just want to say that if someone really wanted to emigrate from USSR and wasn't involved in defense development - he could emigrate.
In Logan, QLD, I have met a Russian guy (for you he's Russian, in fact he's a Jew from Ukraine), who first came to Australia for a vacation (!!!) in 1976, applied for emigration and moved there in 1977.
I first visited the US in 1989. Keep telling me fairy-tales about "Evil Communist Regime" (tm). You guys all know better because you saw it on TV.
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Originally posted by E25280
Death camps are created by control-seeking governments, not private individuals.
Here we are just one step before privately-built death camps for "ethnically unsuitable" Slavic population.
You guys see only one side of the coin. And you probably didn't even watch "Schindler's List" (sorry for spelling - I have to transcribe it from Cyrillic).
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Berlin Wall was to prevent a mad rush of Immigration into your workers paradise.
We need a Berlin Style wall along our southern borders. I bet out of work KGB Border Guards and Stasi come cheap.
Hmmm there indeed were Border Guard Corps of the State Security Committee.
Funny how you guys advocate emigration from USSR at the same time building another Iron Curtain.
Originally posted by Pooh21
oh and FDR sucked, him and his whole entitlement system.
I still expect someone to tell me about an alternative to New Deal. C'mon. Do me a favor.
When I read Robert Heinlein criticizing the FDR - it makes me wonder and do some research. OTOH when I read some virtual characters screaming - I think it only proves FDR was one of the greatest politicians in world's history.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hmmm there indeed were Border Guard Corps of the State Security Committee.
Funny how you guys advocate emigration from USSR at the same time building another Iron Curtain.
I still expect someone to tell me about an alternative to New Deal. C'mon. Do me a favor.
When I read Robert Heinlein criticizing FDR - it makes me wonder and do some research. OTOH when I read some virtual characters screaming - I think it only proves FDR was one of the greatest politicians in world's history.
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boroda. explain propose of Berlin wall.
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Originally posted by john9001
boroda. explain propose of Berlin wall.
Dig a little deeper and look for reasons for the blockade of Berlin in 1948, then you'll understand.
My GrandFather once arrested an American who cut into his military convoy on a Berlin highway... He said he was scared as hell, but when he gave him up to authorities - he was told that this person is a known spy. GrandFather served there in 58-65, he was a commander of a "Portable Missile-Technical base", stored nuclear warheads for medium-range missiles.
A paragraph above is just a "baika", short story for fun. I do advise You to make some research on occupation of Germany.
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Goodness, Boroda, how could we research this subject when propaganda is the very foundation our flawed histories are written on, according to you?
A good, old fashioned Soviet Truth about the Berlin Wall might be exactly what we need to see through our freedom colored glasses.
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that's what meant, i want the real reason for the wall, was it to keep out the US spies?
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Yes, that's why Germans on both sides of the wall partied and celebrated when it came down. Once the wall came down, it was free passage for Amreekan spies... no wonder all Germans, East and West were so overjoyed.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Funny how you guys advocate emigration from USSR at the same time building another Iron Curtain.
No see we wish to kick out 10 mil + then have a wall to keep them all and all their friends from getting back in. Keeping out spies is just an added bonus. Plus your wall was useless for its intended purpose. James Bond and Moose and Squirrel got in whenever they wanted to.
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You want to get rid of the 10 mil+ illegal immigrants.....go after the people that employ them......including the Americans that employ them....that will dry up the illegal pool damn quick.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Goodness, Boroda, how could we research this subject when propaganda is the very foundation our flawed histories are written on, according to you?
LOL! :D
You can find all you want even through the propaganda screen. You just have to employ your inter-aurial ganglia.
Originally posted by Chairboy
A good, old fashioned Soviet Truth about the Berlin Wall might be exactly what we need to see through our freedom colored glasses.
I have to disappoint you. All I knew about the Berlin Wall in Soviet times was that it was built in 1960 after another crisis. And I have a picture of my Mother next to the Wall - she visited my Grandparents back in the 60s.
The whole situation with Berlin divided into occupation zones was quite idiotic, wasn't it? IMHO there had to be only two occupation zones there, Soviet and Polish.
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which begs the question... if the wall was built because of some crisis in the 60's... why not tear it down after the crisis?
And yes.. we all know that jews were able to leave the enlightened soviet union if they had no skills that were "needed"... you guys don't much like jews do you?
To say that the walls in the soviet union were built to keep people out is insanity.
To say that we are going to build a wall to keep people in is insanity.
I have always said tho that the employers of illegals are the problem. Arrest em and any that have been proven to break the law knowingly should get a mandatory year in prison... where they would be surrounded by former employees oddly enough...
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I have always said tho that the employers of illegals are the problem. Arrest em and any that have been proven to break the law knowingly should get a mandatory year in prison... where they would be surrounded by former employees oddly enough...
lazs
Arizona is trying to enact a law that pull the business license of employers that hire illegals, they said illegals are fleeing the state. Employers are crying that they will have to raise wages.
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Originally posted by john9001
Arizona is trying to enact a law that pull the business license of employers that hire illegals, they said illegals are fleeing the state. Employers are crying that they will have to raise wages.
Yeah, i saw that on the news last week and it seems to be working extremely well.
If i remember right there were a few fast food chains and some other places that actually had to close down for a few days.
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Originally posted by lazs2
which begs the question... if the wall was built because of some crisis in the 60's... why not tear it down after the crisis?
And yes.. we all know that jews were able to leave the enlightened soviet union if they had no skills that were "needed"... you guys don't much like jews do you?
To say that the walls in the soviet union were built to keep people out is insanity.
To say that we are going to build a wall to keep people in is insanity.
I have always said tho that the employers of illegals are the problem. Arrest em and any that have been proven to break the law knowingly should get a mandatory year in prison... where they would be surrounded by former employees oddly enough...
lazs
I very much agree with you Laz.
In the case of illegal Mexican labor in the US... it’s about money... ...the cost of doing business, in my view.
Why? Because they would loose that labor pool and could no longer operate unfairly, competition wise ...on the cheap.
IF... all illegal Mexican labor was deported tomorrow and kept out... it would have a ripple effect in the US economy... there would be some businesses that would go under... and others than would loose their competitive edge... and lower skilled level American workers would have to be re-employed to fill the gap... and add their contributions to the IRS.
It reminds me of history classes... issues of contention in the American Pre-Civil War era.
TIGERESS
edit: opps... just read prior posts... I don't mean to start a thread high-jack.
...will stay on topic if I post again here.
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Originally posted by Yeager
because he gave the USSR eastern europe.
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FDR could not have given them what he did not own as his own. If you want to play "pin the blame on the donkey" you could just as easily blame Truman. Fact is that the USSR had just lost 20 million people to Hitlers european invasion (ww2), and had previously lost several million to an earlier european invasion (ww1), and had been invaded by europe on several earlier occassions.......(Napolean to name one). The USSR finally had the military muscle to build a "NO MORE INVASION" fence.......I cant say that I blame them. Europe had caused Russia tremendous grief and they finally had the strength to say "enough of that invasion crap already".
Try to think outside the box man, no one person has the market on reality cornered. There are other larger perspectives available to the mind that seeks a greater knowledge.
FDR buckled to Stalin on the Polish deal. Churchill was quite pissed off, for Britain had entered WW2 on the deadline of Poland (remember, the UK declaired war on Hitler, Hitler declared war on the USA some 2 years later).
IMHO, no political leader on a large scale comes through the job without a blot. This IMHO was Roosevelt's biggest one, - and I think he got through difficult times rather well. FDR :aok
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tigress.. I think that both parties would like us to believe that we can't get by without illegals mowing our lawns or doing sub quality roofing or landscaping..
That is the big lie.. they can't get along without the hispanic vote..
years ago we were told that we couldn't get along without illegals.. that tomatoes would cost $5 apiece if there were no slaves to sort them.. there were up to 40 on each truck sorting...
When the brasero program ended and the slaves got minimum wage... John deere simply invented a sorter that was by light... now.. the same equipment is being used but by only 2 mexicans.
Things might go up briefly while we adjust but... they will soon get competitive again and... we will have better product all around with less crime and less drain on our system.
Make 12 million legal and you will have 30 million illegals in two more decades... let em vote and you will never see a politician stand up to them again.
lazs
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And yes... it will work.. no new ones will come if there is no work.
And yes... CNN and MSNBC will run tear jerker stories with film of children being torn out of the arms of their criminal parents and all sorts of cruelty and pain.
It has to be done now or the patient will die. The longer we wait the more pain.
Have any of you ever went to the doctor or a hospital? What would happen if we made a law that no doctor could give any treatment if it caused the patient pain? If CNN and other commie stations went to a hospital and filmed the pain every day?
lazs
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In our "simple" society, we have had an increase from <2% to almost 10% of our workforce in just a dew years (<10). It goes without trouble, and be reminded that most Americans trace their ancestry to people that once were immigrants....
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angus... that is fine... if it is ok for them to break laws and that makes it fine for me to break laws I don't like then I am all for it.
If we had the level of social services for the illegal aliens that was available for the legal immigrants of this country back when they came it would be fine.
To simply open up a store and pretend the tourists aren't stealing everything every day tho is not too smart. If all the stuff is bolted down tho... who cares?
Our stuff isn't bolted down tho... it is low hanging fruit (to mix metaphors here).
lazs
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Originally posted by Angus
In our "simple" society, we have had an increase from <2% to almost 10% of our workforce in just a dew years (<10). It goes without trouble, and be reminded that most Americans trace their ancestry to people that once were immigrants....
You used the Liberal Move #376b also know as the "Your Ancestors were Immigrants Also" card.
The counter to it, also known as Using My Freaking Head or The Truth Hurts or Realism, It's Not Your Mother's Delusion, is that by and large our ancestors came to this country legally and intended to assimilate.
A large percentage of those coming in illegally do not wish to assimilated. Indeed, La Raza wants to reclaim parts of the U.S. for Mexico. Kick everyone else out.
Many of these people do not learn the language, force legislature for instructions in Spanish, do not pay taxes, take advantage (in the true sense of the word) of Medicare, and now can get driver's licenses.
That's not jumping into the melting pot. That's pouring it out and then once the pot is righted, jumping in and claiming, "Mine!".
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Originally posted by Angus
be reminded that most Americans trace their ancestry to people that once were immigrants....
Agnes, them was LEGAL immigrants.
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(http://hallert.net/images/national_language.jpg)
c/o http://xkcd.com/
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A detail often (deliberately?) overlooked by the champions of illegal immigration.
Toad
Grandson and Great-grandson of legal immigrants to the US.
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big deal Toad. I'm a legal and naturalized citizen. the status of the individual means nothing. while I favor legal immigration the fact that there are millions here illegally and will continue to remain as well as the fact that millions yet unborn will make there way here is irrefutable.