Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: GHO5T on October 04, 2007, 02:28:49 PM
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am i right in thinking that the best E fighter is the p-51?
if not what is the best plane to use for E - Fighting?
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High-alt: P-38/47
Med-alt: 109G/K and 190D
Low-alt: La-5/7
The P-51 is OK at everything (its true strength), but not really good at anything.
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I would add the Yak in med. alt. It dominates 16-17k.
I'm not a big fan of p51's in general, so I will refrain from posting about 'em.
(1 trick pony comes to mind)
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F4U-4.
Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9, Spitfire Mk XIV and P-51D are good too.
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F4Us in general are excellent E-fighters, so long as you're careful with mainaining your e-state.
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A-20...Inertia baby
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Originally posted by Saxman
F4Us in general are excellent E-fighters, so long as you're careful with mainaining your e-state.
That's what makes it a poor energy fighter. What makes or breaks an E-fighter is its ability to build an E advantage over its opponents and quickly rebuild spent E when needed. The F4U (with the exception of the -4) are slow-accelerating and climbs poorly. The F4U otoh is a pretty good turn-fighter due to its fantastic flaps.
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Even a Seafire is a good energy fighter down low.
I had an La7, a P47 and a spit trying to chase me home from a furball.
Dove for the deck and the spit gave it up and peeled off.
Once the spits out of icon range I reversed back into the other 2 guys. I got a hit on the la's engine leaving him smoking. Merged twice and again, picked my point to exit, dove for the deck and ran. La decided to go home, that left the jug.
Once more the jug slowly caught me, once more at 2k I reversed high, merged with him twice, and then dove out and ran. Left him in the dust 3.5k back and no longer a threat. If I'd had ammo I'd of stayed and killed him. But I was empty and down to minutes of fuel.
I agree that the Yak is VERY good from say 5 - 15k, in decent hands its a constant threat.
Yes the P51 can be flown as an energy fighter, but its poor acceleration leaves it gasping for E after much of a maneuver. Its actually a "downhill" fighter, starts up high, and with careful use of altitude can do very very well.
Once low it needs to exit out clear of the fight and either land or regrab alt.
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Viking,
The F4Us all hold on to energy well--among the best of any aircraft, and it's this retention that make them effective in an energy fight. The zoom is superior to almost anything in the air, (and zoom is more important than straight climb in a fight, I can't tell you how many La-7's I've run down in the vertical, or Spixteens I've left choking on dust) and while level acceleration may not be great in the 1-series, all the Hogs build up speed VERY quickly going downhill.
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While B&Z is a form of E-fighting any aircraft limited to only B&Z cannot imho be called a good E-fighter. That you have killed Spit16's and La-7's in an F4U does credit to your skills, not your plane. Again imho. This thread is named "best e fighter?", imho that only includes the (un-perked) fighters I listed in my original post.
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The Tempest rules them all down low.
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E-fighter you say?
Mk XIV
Bronk
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Originally posted by Viking
While B&Z is a form of E-fighting any aircraft limited to only B&Z cannot imho be called a good E-fighter.
That's why I don't consider the P-51 an "E-fighter". It's good at Boom and Zoom style attacks but as a pure E fighter, it's not one of them.
ack-ack
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Given that a good e fighter is defined as the one that after an identical set of manouvers has retained or gained the greater E.
problem with this definition is we see (from badz's curves) that this is highly dependant upon what these manouvres actually were. How close to optimum corner speed etc.
So to simplify it to me its the fastest sustained turner when viewed from the point of view of both linear and radial air speed in turn.
The spit wing should by the above definition make it the perfect e fighter, it holds e through manouvres beautifully.
However some ac are able to drain their oppenents E by forcing angles where the opponent does not pull the same manouvre but instead is forced into some e sapping evasive............. these ac often exhibit poor aerodynamic e retention but high surplus power (F4u4) such that they can scrub e to carry out a manouvre confident that they can regain the "e edge" after forcing a reaction from their opponent and gaining angle.
or indeed use their mass to extend in zoom and so generate better angle from a loop/immelman etc.
I suppose some would say this is not e fighting but IMO using zoom as a method of e conversion that your opponent cannot copy is indeed e fighting...........even if the out come is a better angle.
So for me the better pure e fighters are the Spitfires, with a caveat that permits others to still take an e fight to the Spitfire when allowed to do so in a manner that the Spitfire cannot copy.
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I'd go with 109K, or Spit 8+ / Ki84.
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Id go with my favorite as i know it very well... the G14
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best E fighter?
really has less to do with the plane type and more to do with the obedient flying skill of the pilot flying any particular plane........in the right hands of a player with the well rehearsed flying skill of e-management , the pilot prevails beyond any plane type one could think of. He could be flying a spitfire 1 or an A20, or a z6m2 zero, or F4U-1A, or C202, or Yak and it would always come down to the better piloting skill verses his opponent.......
it really is the pilot vs the plane when one talks E Fighting.......just alot of people want to believe it is the plane's strengths that makes it a better E Fighter. If you don't know how to plan ahead, manage E- State and apply it toward your particular fight, then you could be in any spitfire/109K4/F4U-4 or any other plane type and still get your rear waxed.......
btw..Saxman is one of the better E-Fighters in the game as of late.....for he practices this flying style everytime he takes off from my visual opinion.......
as far as BnZ, TnB and E - Fighting..E-Fighting has always been an agressive mixture of both BnZ & TnB yet applied in such a way that the one doing this style never really puts his self in harms way of a guns solution, although it may appear he does to his victim........
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I have to second Nilsen, a 109, my favorite is the K4, but the G14 too. The K4 has an enormously powerful engine for its size and weight, and if you fight the vertical with your opponent, there are few who can match it in terms of raw climbing power.
It's not a good pure diver, so you don't BnZ with it from several thousand feet up, but if by "E fighter" you mean a fighter that can go vertical and beat almost any plane in the game on pure energy and raw engine power, the K4 is very hard to beat.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
A-20...Inertia baby
Ding Ding Ding...
:aok :aok :aok
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I agree 100% with TC that "E-fighting" is much more pilot dependent then it is plane dependent. If we then go beyond that and look at some other variables. Stability at low speed/unusual attitudes, gun package, "zoom", ability to both bleed and gain E I think three planes come to mind.
F4U probably the best overall in my mind in that it has all but the low speed stability against torque at the top of the zoom.
P-38 Has the stability the hog lacks but suffers IMO just a bit IMO in the rolling scissors aspects of E fighting
A-20 As wolf said...intertia. Actually the best pure E platform in the game IMO. Limited in alot of ways....but as deadly as any fighter as long as the gerbals are running strong...
***at edit***
One other factor un mentioned so far is damage/toughness. When you get to good E fighters locked up the A-20 has a tremendous ability to take damage and still fight. Often times the thing will absorb what should be a "killing blow" and the other guy is left on the wrong end of the sawzall.
The other factor might be effective gunnery range. when I'm "on" I can saw a guy in half at 800 in the A-20. Personally I think it has the best sight picture in the game....
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Originally posted by sethipus
I have to second Nilsen, a 109, my favorite is the K4, but the G14 too. The K4 has an enormously powerful engine for its size and weight, and if you fight the vertical with your opponent, there are few who can match it in terms of raw climbing power.
It's not a good pure diver, so you don't BnZ with it from several thousand feet up, but if by "E fighter" you mean a fighter that can go vertical and beat almost any plane in the game on pure energy and raw engine power, the K4 is very hard to beat.
yup the k4 has even better climb and is faster than the g14, but because the g14 has a slightly tighter turn radius i like it better. It also looks better i think, and that is important :D
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Inertia ... while useful if you already have an E advantage over your opponent ... is useless if you face a co-E plane of superior E-building characteristics ... like a 109 for example. Great inertia does not an E-fighter make. E-building does.
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Originally posted by Viking
Inertia ... while useful if you already have an E advantage over your opponent ... is useless if you face a co-E plane of superior E-building characteristics ... like a 109 for example. Great inertia does not an E-fighter make. E-building does.
Thats not true at all, initial E state isnt overwhelmingly important...relative pilot skill is as well as familiarity with the opponent. As long as I have a reasonable amount of altitude AGL I could care less how the fight starts. E fighting isnt about starting with more E its about finishing with more.
Since the A-20 is not widely flown as a "fighter" its overall capabilities are often misjudged, combine that with unparalleled toughness(IMO), tremendous stability and a sawzall center mounted gun package and the A-20 is a fine neg E fighter is as well.
I'm not in a spot where I can edit this one down but if you take a look at the last few minutes I get bounced by a good la-7 driver on the deck after I bounced Domin. The lala is positive E and obviously has angular advantage and SA. The A-20 has no problem at all in a vertical climb scissors and then can zoom stable till less then 50mph ias and recover to again win a climbing turning vertical fight on the deck. Now the A-20 absorbed a couple of good shots along the way...but thats typical.
A-20 E fighting on the deck (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/meandmiami.ahf)
The A-20 can change up from E to angles and back better then any fighter in the game IMO....
E by itself is useless...it's the application of E that is priceless
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For me the 38 is the best. It hates to slow down, weighs more than just about any other fighter, and is rediculous in the vertical. Co-E in an uphill fight it simply is fantastic. Flown by someone who knows it it can dominate just about any E-fight.
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F6F-5
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_199808/ai_n8826530/pg_1
:aok
-C+
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Hi,
Regarding the plane i understand it in this way: A E-fighter is the plane doomed to make B&Z, cause its main acceleration(climb) is rather bad and/or its E-bleed while sustained turning is rather high and or it have a more poor turn ratius.
The E-fighter need to safe its E-advantage by evading long turns and by attacking the enemy and forcing him to make energy wasting evading manouvers, without to get into his gunrage.
Thats why a plane can be a E and Turn fighter at same time.
SpitIX vs A6M5 , Spit is the E-fighter.
SpitIX vs P47, P47 is the E-fighter.
Of course also a A6M5 can make E-fight vs a SpitIXc and a SpitIXc can make E-fight vs a P47.
Thats where TC is right, E-Fight is the way to maintain the energy in a way to be able to get into a shooting position. This isnt only about keeping as much energy as possible, but also about beeling energy in the right moment.
Greetings,
Knegel
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There's been a lot of discussion on this topic, but most people don't understand some basic concepts.
Badboy has previously quoted Shaw: ""In the angles fight the tactician first seeks to gain a position advantage (angles), even at the expense of relative energy, and then he attempts to maintain or improve on this advantage until he achieves his required firing parameters. The purpose of the energy fight is to gain an energy advantage over the opponent while not yielding a decisive position advantage. Once a sufficient energy advantage has been attained, it must be converted to a lethal position advantage, usually without surrendering the entire energy margin."
In short, every fighter can be an E fighter or an angles fighter. It's up to the pilot how he chooses to engage. A lowly F4F-4 can E fight a 109K successfully depending upon initial E advantage and pilot skill.
Some aircraft are better at E fighting than Angles fighting. Others are just the opposite. We also have quite a few that can be successfully utilized for either. Those "all-arounds" include the F4Us, F6F-5, all 109s including the E, the Spitfire 8, 9, 14 and 16, as well as the P-38s, Niki, Ki-84, Lalas and several others. These aircraft have the ability to transition from Energy tactics to Angle tactics seamlessly. The P-51s, Typhoon, P-47s and the various 190s are not good angles fighters, and thus do not make the transition without complication. In other words, if you blow your E in these types, odds are that you will not have an easy time of it. They have a narrow window where they must get the kill or be put at substantial risk.
You can certainly use E tactics in a Hurricane IIC if you have some altitude. The drawback is that when your altitude and E are exhausted, the Hurri ends up being a pure angles fighter.
As to which fighter being the best E fighter... There are no absolutes here. I would stick with that group of "all-arounds", where you have the ability to fight using both Energy and Angles. This allows for far greater flexibility of tactics and offers the pilot greater options.
My regards,
Widewing
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For the moment I'll vote whatever Wadke is in:). I havent been that painfully schooled in recent memory (and mine of course is short and self-serving {as any selfrespecting "fighter pilots" should be}).
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This thread is named "best e fighter?". To even mention the A-20 in this context borders on the absurd.
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Originally posted by Viking
This thread is named "best e fighter?". To even mention the A-20 in this context borders on the absurd.
As usual your wrong. The A-20 is as close to a pure E fighter as you can get. Now I didnt make it #1 and its horribly limited in alot of ways but it has a tremendous E fighting capability and is very capable of giving any of the planes mentioned here a good fight.
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Originally posted by humble
The A-20 is as close to a pure E fighter as you can get.
The mind boggles. You've outdone yourself this time Humble; that's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. :huh
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According to WW's definition its not really.
The A-20 needs to be flown with altitude and/or speed all the time. It zooms maniacally well for some reason and it turns well for a bomber. And if it can't BnZ and can't TnB but zooms well and dives well (which it does) while still being able to turn adequately then it can be considered an E-fighter.
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Originally posted by Wadke
F6F-5
Geez Wadke...
He didn't ask what was the best BLUE[/u] plane!!! :D
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I'm not sure if you are misinterpreting my comment or are unaware of the A-20's capabilities as a "fighter".
Overall the A-20 is significantly hampered as a fighter, however if you run into one that is well handled its obvious that its a dangerous adversary and needs to be handled with some care. In fact the more "late war" the plane the tougher the A-20 is to deal with.
Now once we accept the fact that the A-20 is "dogfight" capable we need to look further at how it accomplishes that goal. The A-20 cant sustain any high G manuevering at speeds over about 405 and even low level control input can pop control surfaces at 410-415 if trim is off. So the A-20 cant B&Z. The A-20 cant really angles fight with any success either so its not one of those. So how does it fight....between 225 & 375 in the semi verticals. It is in fact purely an E fighter. No plane in the game can transition from + to - E and back as smoothly as an A-20. I dont think there is any plane more stable in unusual attitude manuevering at widely varying speeds either. Nothing in the game can slow down, reload and zoom with the A-20 in that "E fighting" speed zone IMO.
The A-20 matches up suprisingly well with the p-51, p-47, p-38, la-7/5 Yak & 190. It can fight well vs the F6F, F4U and all 109's but relative pilot skill is more of a factor. It has a tougher time with spitties since both a good spit driver and often a bad one can force a fight unsuitable to the A-20. Ki's and nikkis are tough as well....
I said the A-20 is a "pure" E fighter...not the best E fighter. But as others have mentioned E fighting is more about the pilot then about the plane.
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I put this up elsewhere for a different reason but I'll post it here...
This looks like an "E fighter" to me....
clip (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/film166.ahf)
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mm... the 262?
I mean.. that thing at 600mph ... nothing escapes it, nothing catches it... monstrous zoom climbs and insane diving speeds (when dives start over 200mph that is).