Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: cav58d on October 05, 2007, 08:03:00 AM
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I HATE most pilots my age and younger...What is the freaking deal with them...Nearly everyone I meet has an enormous bulge over getting to a regional airline as soon as they meet the airlines mininums, not their own, and getting that seniorioty #. How can anyone be that excited about 50k in debt from some pilot mill, which will double by the time they can pay it off on 20k-30K first officer pay without an upgrade in site because they got hired with only 250 hours PIC and cant get their ATP.
Furthermore, if I hear one more kid tell me that 1,000 hours PIC in a single engine airplane is worthless, I'm going to take a 2 x 4 and hit him straight across the face....
anyone else in aviation experience idiots like this or is it just the north east.
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We are hiring :D If you want to add the word "ice" to your vocabulary, now's the time.
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thats all I deal with every day. Regionals are hiring like crazy and within a year or 2 the pay does become livable. Personally its not high on my list of flying jobs but its a decent one that is picking up low time pilots. Their other option is CFI for crap pay.
I know a bunch of schools are going strictly to multi for most of the training, no more single engine commercial.
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Every experienced airline pilot I've ever talked to has told me that line number and seniority is EVERYTHING.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
We are hiring :D If you want to add the word "ice" to your vocabulary, now's the time.
Drug smuggling frenchy?
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Originally posted by eagl
Every experienced airline pilot I've ever talked to has told me that line number and seniority is EVERYTHING.
Have these conversations been in the context of wet AMEL pilots going to fly regional jets? Sure, seniorioty is very important...It's going to control your schedule, your pay, and if you happen to be below the right # during a furlough, it will keep your job...But at what cost???
I'm sorry, but some idiot who pays 80k to go to a pilot factory, and ends up right seat in an RJ 6 months from the start of his training just isn't right...Mostly though, its the fault of the industry for not having higher standards...But hey...Why raise standards? It's easy to pay an 18 year old kid with 250 hours 20 grand to fly a big shiney airplane! Raise the mininums, and you may actually have individuals who say no to that.
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Originally posted by Dnil
I know a bunch of schools are going strictly to multi for most of the training, no more single engine commercial.
These schools are doing that so they can charge more...You pay an insane amount of money to go to one of these schools and in return you get say 180 hours multi engine...Thing is, you are always flying with another student. One of you flying under the hood and the other as safety pilot so both can log PIC...So now XYZ school can make double on a single flight.....AND they want you to believe multi time is everything, and single engine time isn't worth a damn...
well thats just wrong...I know more pilots who have landed their multi engine jobs, myself included, because of their single engine time...I had a mere 14 hours multi last year...That sure didn't get me a paycheck.
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be mad at the regionals not the guys taking a paying job. You know full well how crappy it is in the beginning. Its one of the few professions you pay that much in training and make dirt for the first couple years. CFI is disgusting pay. A 250 hour pilot would be stupid not to take the job cause in year 2 its 35k and by year 3 he is upgrading to captain and topping out at 85k all by the age of 27. If he has a 4 year degree he then moves on to a major.
I am sure most would love to go corporate but 3k minimuns are not going to attract those guys. Its the regionals fault in this not the pilots trying to make a living.
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Originally posted by Dnil
be mad at the regionals not the guys taking a paying job. You know full well how crappy it is in the beginning. Its one of the few professions you pay that much in training and make dirt for the first couple years. CFI is disgusting pay. A 250 hour pilot would be stupid not to take the job cause in year 2 its 35k and by year 3 he is upgrading to captain and topping out at 85k all by the age of 27. If he has a 4 year degree he then moves on to a major.
I am sure most would love to go corporate but 3k minimuns are not going to attract those guys. Its the regionals fault in this not the pilots trying to make a living.
WHAT! With all due respect, you are dead wrong. If you were to be making 85k by 27 years old at the regionals, you would have to had started employment with them at around the age of 12.
And I 100% disagree about not being mad at the guys taking the job. Its a collective problem between them and the airlines...Doesn't matter if it's a paying job. Do you know what a scab is? Do you think its okay when scabs do struck work, just because its a paying job?
The fact is, willingly taking such a terrible salary is undercutting the entire industry. You have 2 or 3 airlines who can pay 20k a year and the rest of the industry then follows ...
Maybe if the young kids didn't have a hard on and big shiney jets in their eyes, then they would actually offense to this sub par wages, and demand an increase; one way, by not taking the job...
As much as it is a good contract and union representation (hopefully you're at a union airline), it also comes down to the pilot group as a whole saying no to disgusting pay...
Theres enough people at mid levels in the regionals who are completely fed up with this crap, and I think you are going to see a sort of revolution in the industry over the next couple years...Unfortunately theres not enough young guys just starting their career who can get past the shiney jets in their eyes to take pride in their profession.
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Over here in Europe it's the same but different. The same result though. But here we get kids with 250 hours flying right seat in jets. Basically the system favours those people who can raise 100,000 Euro and go to a flight school and get a JAA licence. The evidence is that the airlines favour those guys over pilots with more time but who got their rating the traditional way.
To make it worse, airlines are now charging newbies 25,000 Euro for their type rating. Ryanair being the worst offender in that regard. They even charge £50 sterling to apply for a job. On top of that the new pilot is paid a reduced salary for six months.
Aer Arann, the Irish regional, pay quite well compared to American standards but they also charge 25,000 Euro for a type rating. They do pay it back eventually. But, rather cynically they know most pilots will have moved on to jets by then.
The result is a lot of low time co-pilots on European airlines. Experience counts for nothing anymore.
The whole situation has resulted in a downward decline in pilot pay.
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Unfortunately, what most would argue to be the best contract in the US; Southwest Airlines requires their pilots to be responsible for their B737 type; whether it be actually paying for it, or going to another airline, getting typed in training, and then quitting as soon as the training contract is up...
It just sucks what is happening to the industry though and its not just the regionals...Even majors like Jetblue, Virgin America and the worst offender; Skybus, are paying their pilots well under industry standards to fly around a 120+ seat jet.
I think now that the majors are flat out requiring a four year degree, or at least saying that you need one to be competitive is a good step...But there will always be a massive pool for the majors...I wish regional carriers would require this, but I doubt you will ever see that day...Requiring a degree would mean upping pay, and management doesn't want that to happen.
The best thing pilots can do is make sure there feelings and opinions are heard...Avoid the crap pay and crap contracts...You have to cause a hell storm if you want things changed, and even if management wont listen...well theres other ways......................... .................Ever taxi behind an AA? You would think they have their parking break on hehe
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I don't know why you or anyone would get mad at whatever route someone takes, or the goal he wants to achieve in his career. Do what is right for you, and if it doesn't effect you directly and personally, don't sweat what someone else does.
I find more frustrating a pilot who still has fresh ink on his ticket acting like the industry expert on everything aviation, and most of his "knowledge" is based on what he overhears in a pilot lounge.
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you obviously havent looked at the regionals close enough then. My buddy is a captain on RJ's and has been for 2 years, he just turned 30. I am sorry you have such an issue with fellow pilots.
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Originally posted by Dago
I don't know why you or anyone would get mad at whatever route someone takes, or the goal he wants to achieve in his career. Do what is right for you, and if it doesn't effect you directly and personally, don't sweat what someone else does.
I find more frustrating a pilot who still has fresh ink on his ticket acting like the industry expert on everything aviation, and most of his "knowledge" is based on what he overhears in a pilot lounge.
I don't know of any ink that hasn't dried after a couple years...That said, my experience in aviation is only 8 years; not a lifetime, but enough to know a thing or two...And you are absolutely wrong in saying that the actions of a pilot or an entire pilot group in regards to contracts and pay does not effect the rest of the industry...It does, and I dont feel like sitting around and dealing with the status quo that management wants to write when it deals with my earnings, potential earnings, or missed earnings over the next 40 years...Change will never happen when people sit on their hands.
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Originally posted by Dnil
you obviously havent looked at the regionals close enough then. My buddy is a captain on RJ's and has been for 2 years, he just turned 30. I am sorry you have such an issue with fellow pilots.
If your friend is telling you he is making 80k in his second year, then he is BSing you. anyways for laughs, what airline is he at.
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he works for expressjet and you can look up the pay yourself. It's common knowledge. look up a 10 year captain. It seems to me you have major issues where certain pilots came from. I love hearing a pilot get hired no matter his background.
Seeing how you don't like certain pilots background and how they got hired. What path would you like pilots to take, which path would be acceptable to you?
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At 67 an hour, Expressjet must give one hell of a per diem to make up the 20k difference...And the only type of guys I have a problem with are the ones who go with 250 hours and do my job for sub pay...It's pathetic that this industry pays what it does, and its up to everyone to change that. Do you have a problem with people who are lobbying for better contracts and better pay? I'm sorry, but im not happy with the fact that guys at Burger King and McDonals can make as much money as someone flying a 35-70 person jet, and the only way to attempt to influence or change that is to actually get out there and do it yourself...
Anyways...I'm off to Cleveland for the next 3 days, and I doubt this thread will still be open when I get back...To each ones own...And realistically, I understand you ave to start somewhere...If you wanna fly 121 the option is either take job, or dont....But everyone does have a say in who they choose, and by not interviewing or accepting offers from companys brining the industry down, that is the first step in a change....no hard feelings
so long
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76 an hour at 75 hour guaranteed. He flies more than 75 hours a month.
I agree that starting pay sucks for entry level pilots and it does need to change. I just don't know of any pilot unions that take care of all pilots. I dont blame the guys for taking the jobs offered they would be stupid otherwise.
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I personally love rookie commercial pilots hoohaaing about how great the path they chose is.
Bottomline remains that all that matters is not how you get to where you are, so long as you enjoy your career.
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Why the chip on your shoulder Cav?
The 121 domestic and regional carriers have their ups/downs. Heck the Flag operations have their ups and downs. 135 operators have their ups and downs. Corporate operators have their ups and downs. Being a full time contract pilot has its ups and downs.
Speaking very generally I've done them all. Started with getting a corporate operation off the ground overseeing the purchase of the piston aircraft used in the operation. I had a great schedule, almost no overnights and was paid quite well for my work.
After that I moved on to a 135 operator in Citations. I loved it. 18 days/month usually. No schedule but in my time there I only had 1 popup trip that had to go "right now" (Organ recovery trip...I didn't mind) When that job disappeared due to the company experiencing a slowdown in business (and me being one of the junior guys) they made cuts. The new 500 series guys got let go.
I flew full time as a contract pilot after that for 135 and 91 operators until my currency ran out. I had all the say in the world over my time. If the trip they wanted me to go on sucked I turned it down. If it was a gravy trip or had me going somewhere nice I took it. My currency in the airplane was going to expire and I couldn't convince the folks that were using me regularly to send me to recurrent when my 135 currency was going to expire. I interviewed with several 135 operators for various light jets (Citations, Lears and Beechjets) but none would pay even close to a fair wage and wanted training contracts to do it. One operator offered $22,500/year plus a mediocre per diem (about $40/day) policy to fly a Beechjet with a 24/7 on call. Another offered market rate pay for a Citation captain job that had the current guy on his way out flying 100hrs/month under 135 :O Hell no!
Since then I've been driving the ERJ-170/175 for a 121 regional operator which has a crew domicile where I live. I drive to work but it wasn't always like that. My first months I wasn't senior enough to hold that base and had to commute AND be on reserve for a 12 hour callout window (4am-4pm) in Washington DC of all expensive places. After some sweet talking a few schedulers (and being short staffed) I managed to find myself TDY'd in Pittsburgh until my base swap with another guy went through and I was officially based at home. I now drive to work and it's an hour from my apartment to the crew room. I have a schedule which doesn't get screwed with and I'm "just a number" when it comes to management giving a darn about who you are. I fly more in 4 months than I would in a year at any normal corporate or charter operator. Usually credit around 95hrs/month in pay with another $500-600 in per diem on first year rates. The hourly rate blows ($23/hr) and it doesn't really pay the bills but it's better experience than I'd given it credit for from the outside looking in.
I came here out of necessity. I needed a job, couldn't afford to move and was short on total time for any "good" job. Notice those 135 offers above are all your run of the mill bottom feeder charter companies. Also great experience but much worse quality of life than ANY regional job out there. It was a big bite of humble pie to come here but in the end am glad I did. I wouldn't say its for everyone and I wouldn't even say its for me. I'm using it as a way to pile up 3 years worth of flight time onto a resume in just one calandar year. I was hired this past spring and will be tapped for upgrade in a year or less from now. There are guys with 2 years with the company upgrading into the 170/175 which is a big deal in the airline world. My company and several others are currently in contract negotiations. ASA just got a TA with some very good things for them with not just pay rates but trip/duty rigs which will improve greatly their quality of living. Ultra bottom feeder Mesa is in negotiations as well as Pinnacle. Air Wisconsin is working on having their pre 9/11 contract restored (they're pretty much the highest paid 50 seat guys out there even now) which is a step in the right direction with lots to be desired in the future.
It's a wash for me because I don't intend to upgrade here anyway. I'm leaving here for an opportunity back in the corporate world flying a midsize airplane (with an APU and everything) for above NBAA average pay, WAY great quality of living and proper staffing. A very good friend (drinking buddy type friend) of mine is the lead captain there and was one of the guys who interviewed me. I felt (as he did) that I gelled pretty well with the guys and am going to be brought on with their second airplane shortly. It's a great job that I wouldn't have had the time for the HR folks at the company to sign off on me had I not gone to a regional when I did. As you know HR folks don't know jack about airplanes and there's not really much convincing them otherwise when the department is tied down to minimums despite all their lobbying. I'll be flying less of course, around 300-350hrs/yr instead of the full 1000 allowed under 121. Republic's guys and gals are doing just that and are now being pulled off their schedules so we won't run out of folks come Nov/Dec due to timing out for the year. It's all well and good for you to have your heart in corporate flying. Lord knows I sure do after pumping a million gallons of fuel into the darn airplanes for a couple years. It's great to have a passion for what you're doing but if you think for a minute you've got any ground to stand on when it comes to giving the what-for and the why-is you're sorely mistaken.
It's not a good thing to get visibly upset (especially on a WWII games message board...thats NOT relevant) at other folks for going the path they chose. It looks more like a cry for attention than anything. Also, there are a LOT of corporate and charter guys who play this game. I know most, have spoken with many and even recruited a few. I know of at least 4 who play who are in charge of hiring in their respective departments and if you think that they don't know people who know people you'd be again greatly mistaken. Just a couple years in the business at my pee-on capacity I'm amazed every day at the people I know and the guys I've helped get jobs. This includes jobs I'm not qualified for, can't accept due to location or are simply not what I want to do. It's all about networking when it comes to the business side of aviation. That includes the AH BBs when you start a topic like this.
Just FWIW you're also mistaken on the average regional pilot. Guys and gals in my training class all had the following qualifications:
-ATP or a Type Rating from a previous job
-Lowest time pilot had 1500hrs
-All current/former 121 or 135 pilots
-One guy left a 121 supplemental carrier flying 727's where he could hold a captain slot to come here on his own accord. He's just about the best source of airline-esque information I've ever seen and is a good friend of mine. Imagine my surprise when we showed up for the same class.
-All but one had flown turbine equipment. He flew 135 freight and was a great stick and also my sim partner. His biggest obstacle was the FMS and with a little coaching he picked it up and was proficient by checkride time.
Everybody in my class had more time and experience in the aviation game than you do now. There are plenty of low timers out there getting hired but the majority of folks are actually qualified for the job. The best thing you can do is stop browsing flightinfo to get your information. That board is a cesspool.
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Originally posted by cav58d
I don't know of any ink that hasn't dried after a couple years...That said, my experience in aviation is only 8 years; not a lifetime, but enough to know a thing or two...And you are absolutely wrong in saying that the actions of a pilot or an entire pilot group in regards to contracts and pay does not effect the rest of the industry...It does, and I dont feel like sitting around and dealing with the status quo that management wants to write when it deals with my earnings, potential earnings, or missed earnings over the next 40 years...Change will never happen when people sit on their hands.
I wasn't talking about you, and I also didn't say squat about contracts.
Pilot contracts are market driven to a point. Regionals can fill seats easier because standards are lower, and training time can be quicker and cheaper. Most big jet drivers are actually overpaid and could be replaced with cheaper help if any company decided to bite the bullet, but it is an expensive bullet. If ALPA keeps it up, someday companies will take the action to bring salary and benefits in line with where they should be.
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Now I was waiting for some reknown airline pilot to tell you guys how you all needed a union to solve your woes :)
Seriously, I have a friend whose 58 and flies for AA, I think he's 737s or an Airbus bird now, cant recall. He's hoping the age restriction goes up to 65, which is due to be voted on soon
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Yeah unions...that's the ticket! :rolleyes: There's more to the airlines than I'll ever learn. I have learned that the majority are good folks who just do a job. Airlines have their fair share of bad apples and knuckleheads. Regionals all have those super-senior guys that either are happy/comfortable where they are (great!) are convinced they can't afford to change jobs or have some sort of personality disorder that prevent them from seeking employment elsewhere. I've also learned that unions confuse the heck out of me. I never had any first hand experience with the mentality and it's been an interesting adjustment.
We had a USAir east guy on the jumpseat and despite their recent troubles including seniority integration with America West(shafted by his point of view) he pulled out a little portable photo printer while enroute from A to B. He handed each of us a post card with a photo of our airpane he took with a photoshopped "Thanks for the ride!" text scribed onto it. Very thoughtful and the most outstanding little gift I would have never thought of to thank a crew for a lift. Here's a guy who's been furloughed twice, has every reason to be miserable and yet still has the professionalism to not get sucked into the massive *****fest that many seem to get pulled to.
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Lol!
The ATA recently achieved complete and total victory over ALPA.
I think the very near future will show just exactly what that means for the glorious profession of airline pilot.
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Originally posted by Golfer
We had a USAir east guy on the jumpseat and despite their recent troubles including seniority integration with America West(shafted by his point of view)
US Air received the exact treatment on seniority that they dictated to the Eastern/Trump shuttle pilots when that merger occurred.
It's really quite funny. The US Air guys absolutely screwed ~250 guys out of date of hire and pretty much stapled them. They were warned that they were setting precedent with their seniority list merger.
Now the EXACT SAME ARBITRATOR, Nicolau, merged the US Air and the AmWest lists the EXACT SAME WAY... and US Air is sobbing about the unfairness of it all.
:rofl
They foxed themselves. Deeply.
(Yeah, my brother was Trump and was the Shuttle MEC chairman. So I feel absolutely no sympathy for them.)
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There have been so many mergers and integrations (or lack thereof) that I personally don't have a chance to learn the ins/outs of all of them in my lifetime it seems. Just school in St. Louis alone there were furloughed American guys that worked for TWA, Ozark and what seemed to be a myriad of different companies at one time or another. Generally it seems like it's pretty much always a bum deal for at least the majority of one group which really stinks.
What my opinion is and what I say when there's an East guy around are two different things. Personally I don't feel that a pilot on the street at a company in the toilet has any rights over any pilot at a company that was doing well/expanding.
The obligatory response (being an Airways Express dude) is "yep that sure sucks." Not "they" suck but that it, the situation, sucks. USAir is so busy screwing over the furloughed guys with renigging on various agreements I'm amazed they have time to even get upset with the West MEC.
All the more reason...
Yo-ho, Yo-ho it's the corporate life for me. Arrrrrrgh.
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Originally posted by Toad
US Air received the exact treatment on seniority that they dictated to the Eastern/Trump shuttle pilots when that merger occurred.
It's really quite funny. The US Air guys absolutely screwed ~250 guys out of date of hire and pretty much stapled them. They were warned that they were setting precedent with their seniority list merger.
Now the EXACT SAME ARBITRATOR, Nicolau, merged the US Air and the AmWest lists the EXACT SAME WAY... and US Air is sobbing about the unfairness of it all.
:rofl
They foxed themselves. Deeply.
(Yeah, my brother was Trump and was the Shuttle MEC chairman. So I feel absolutely no sympathy for them.)
Funny. A Golden Rule story, greed and selfishness often come home to roost.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Personally I don't feel that a pilot on the street at a company in the toilet has any rights over any pilot at a company that was doing well/expanding.
If you stay in the airline industry long enough, I feel certain that you will revise that opinion.
I could write a bunch on why I believe that statement to be true but if you don't go corporate it will come to you eventually and you wouldn't believe me right now anyway.
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Originally posted by Toad
If you stay in the airline industry long enough, I feel certain that you will revise that opinion.
I could write a bunch on why I believe that statement to be true but if you don't go corporate it will come to you eventually and you wouldn't believe me right now anyway.
If he goes corporate, he will eventually find himself in a merger situation, as so many of my friends have. When your company is bought out, or buys another out, you will find the dynamics quite interesting. Two flight departments are not necessary, and the buying companies flight department personel are not always the one to come out on top. Normally yes, but not always. If you are the "being bought-out" side of the equation, you may very well find yourself surplused.
The only thing assured in aviation is nothing lasts forever, change is constant.
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The same can be said with airlines. I don't remember specifics to each case but I've talked to more than a handful of current and retired airline guys who spend 20-30 years with a company and 10 years on the street.
This isn't going to be a productive discussion because I have made up my mind what I like to do at this point in my life as have the rest of the posters. Since I don't think we'd flip the other side I'll just say I've seen the ups and downs of both sides. I consider myself fairly well informed with both sides of the coin and have made my decision. I'll be happier flying a midsize business airplane over an 80,000lb regional airliner or even a 737 for the luv-ed Southwest. It makes me happy like being involved with the airlines make others happy. I will say I have many many more inquiries from airline pilots with little/no perspective on business aviation asking for insight than I do corporate guys asking about airlines. They both happen but it's pretty one sided.
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Originally posted by Golfer
The same can be said with airlines. I don't remember specifics to each case but I've talked to more than a handful of current and retired airline guys who spend 20-30 years with a company and 10 years on the street.
This isn't going to be a productive discussion because I have made up my mind what I like to do at this point in my life as have the rest of the posters. Since I don't think we'd flip the other side I'll just say I've seen the ups and downs of both sides. I consider myself fairly well informed with both sides of the coin and have made my decision. I'll be happier flying a midsize business airplane over an 80,000lb regional airliner or even a 737 for the luv-ed Southwest. It makes me happy like being involved with the airlines make others happy. I will say I have many many more inquiries from airline pilots with little/no perspective on business aviation asking for insight than I do corporate guys asking about airlines. They both happen but it's pretty one sided.
If you find a job you like, and enjoy doing what you do, you have won the game. Corporate flying can be a great life, certainly nice aircraft. There are upsides and downsides to both. Enjoy.