Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: sethipus on October 07, 2007, 02:15:50 AM
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Last Sunday, Sept. 30, in the evening in one of the Late War arenas, I think it was Orange, the Knights were getting rolled really badly, in part due to being massively outnumbered.
The ENY calculations were insanely low. You know, sometimes I've looked at the ENY numbers and thought WTF, how can this be real. This time I took screenshots of it. Here are two crops from the screenshots. The full screenshots are 1920x1200, so I gave you just the ENY details. Btw, these two shots were taken 34 minutes apart from each other.
(http://www.leigh.org/seth/wtfeny1.jpg)
(http://www.leigh.org/seth/wtfeny2.jpg)
I'd like to know how the Rooks could have 162% as many people on, and 213% as many people in the air, as the Knights, and only had an ENY of 10.5. My God, when Knights have come anywhere near these kinds of numerical advantages we've all been flying A6M2s and P-40s, and bombing with Bostons, for Heaven's Sake. And in this case the Rooks couldn't fly what, Ponies or better?
What gives? Why do the ENY values sometimes make so little sense?
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I just ignore eny and fly my spitfires. :D
I'm not completly sure how ENY works but I do know that if one country has a certain total % then eny kicks in. Doesn't matter how many are flying for any country. At 40% total I think eny starts, and I believe each % has it's own set eny (not sure, I'm no expert on this).
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InFlight has no bearing on ENY.
The QUESTION would be why are roughly 40% of the Knights sitting in the tower?
THAT'S what killed ya'. Was there a mission about to roll or something?
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Yeah, I mostly fly the Bf-109 K-4, so with it's ENY of 20 it's not terribly often, as a Knight, that I can't fly it. So ENY doesn't limit me much personally.
But on a night like that, I'd rather not have had to face the 2:1 odds with so little real impact by ENY on the flying Rook hoarde. Ok, it did take care of the LA-7 problem, but that's about it.
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Originally posted by WMLute
InFlight has no bearing on ENY.
The QUESTION would be why are roughly 40% of the Knights sitting in the tower?
THAT'S what killed ya'. Was there a mission about to roll or something?
Nah, wasn't a mission. I don't know why so many were in the tower. If you notice, all sides had a lot in the tower. Knights had a few more, but we were also being slapped around like ragdolls, so perhaps some people were just frustrated.
Still, even just looking at the numbers logged in, how can one justify a 6.7 ENY for 112 versus 74? That's over 50% more people logged in, and the only planes they couldn't fly were the LA-7 and the Spixteen, and that's about it. And then later there were 120 to 74 logged in. That's 62% more people, for a whopping 10.5 ENY.
That's a bogus ENY value, IMHO.
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Originally posted by sethipus
many people on, and 213% as many people in the air, as the Knights, and only had an ENY of 10.5. My God, when Knights have come anywhere near these kinds of numerical advantages we've all been flying A6M2s and P-40s, and bombing with Bostons, for Heaven's Sake.
This is simply not true. ENY limits are the same for every country.
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Originally posted by sethipus
Still, even just looking at the numbers logged in, how can one justify a 6.7 ENY for 112 versus 74?....
Technically this statement is incorrect.
It's 112 vs 156.
If the countries were dividing their efforts like they should it would be 56 rooks vs 41 bishops and 56 rooks vs 37 knights.
The imbalance is not as bad as you make it seem.
Now if the entire Rook nation was attacking the Knights, well there's not much that can be done about that except to change the mindset of the players.
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Originally posted by NHawk
and 56 rooks vs 37 knights.
The imbalance is not as bad as you make it seem.
You define having a 51% advantage in numbers as "not as bad"?
Funny :aok
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Originally posted by NHawk
Technically this statement is incorrect.
It's 112 vs 156.
If the countries were dividing their efforts like they should it would be 56 rooks vs 41 bishops and 56 rooks vs 37 knights.
The imbalance is not as bad as you make it seem.
Now if the entire Rook nation was attacking the Knights, well there's not much that can be done about that except to change the mindset of the players.
If each side were balanced at say, 100, then by your math, it would be 100 vs 200. The reality remains even if you split 50% against each side....in that case, 50 to 50 on each front.
The imbalance is properly considered by the total of the lowest team to the total of the highest team. That does define the imbalance.
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Originally posted by Shiryu
You define having a 51% advantage in numbers as "not as bad"?
Funny :aok
Try 34% :)
37 is 66% of 56. So Rooks would have a 34% advantage.
My point is that it's not the entire 112 Rooks vs the entire 74 Knights. If it were, the Bishops should have had a field day taking undefended Rook and Knight bases.
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Originally posted by NHawk
Try 34% :)
37 is 66% of 56. So Rooks would have a 34% advantage.
My point is that it's not the entire 112 Rooks vs the entire 74 Knights. If it were, the Bishops should have had a field day taking undefended Rook and Knight bases.
The way things have been of late, they prolly did,:rofl
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Originally posted by yanksfan
The way things have been of late, they prolly did,:rofl
If that's the case then this is where ENY becomes unfair.
Let's just say that 102 Rooks were exclusively attacking the Knights. The other 10 are trying to defend against the Bishop attack. Those 10 could be severely penalized by ENY.
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Originally posted by NHawk
Try 34% :)
37 is 66% of 56. So Rooks would have a 34% advantage.
56 is 151% of 37. hence the 51% difference.
I saw your point earlier, and i think it's invalid. All countries have to split their forces, the rooks do, and so do the knights and the bishes, the imbalance doesn't change.
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Originally posted by Shiryu
56 is 151% of 37. hence the 51% difference.
Either way is correct. It depends on how you look at it. :)
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I know, and wichever way you look at it the imbalance is quite heavy. Point is that if HTC has to put in any balancing factor like ENY, they should put it in so it actually does affect balance, otherwise it's useless to even put one in.
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Originally posted by NHawk
If that's the case then this is where ENY becomes unfair.
Let's just say that 102 Rooks were exclusively attacking the Knights. The other 10 are trying to defend against the Bishop attack. Those 10 could be severely penalized by ENY.
You know what, i never considerd that, but that does happen, i used to defend alot of bases and i can remember not being able to get a flak panzer, i think and i hate to admit this, but the best way to deal with eny is to change to the low side, maybe they should offer a perk point bonus to switch to low side, i don't think there is a completely fair way to share the wealth, eny is not gonna fix an imbalance, and it's not going away either, but if you do fly knit, you deal with it alot less.
Don
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Originally posted by Shiryu
.............. All countries have to split their forces, the rooks do, and so do the knights and the bishes, the imbalance doesn't change.
This the part or your quote that is causing you the problems. It should read "All countries SHOULD split their forces ". Unfortunately the mentality doesn't always follow a logical route. If the countries split their forces, and we had even fronts on all sides, even numbers like you posted wouldn't be a big deal, and the ENY would be helping. Unfortunately HTC can predict how the fronts are going to balance out because basically most are too busy either killing, or land grabbing to worry about strategy.
So basically "bogus ENY calculation" only comes into effect when your country is being ganged, and believe it or not, it happens to ALL countries at different times of day.
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Originally posted by yanksfan
You know what, i never considerd that, but that does happen, i used to defend alot of bases and i can remember not being able to get a flak panzer, i think and i hate to admit this, but the best way to deal with eny is to change to the low side, maybe they should offer a perk point bonus to switch to low side, i don't think there is a completely fair way to share the wealth, eny is not gonna fix an imbalance, and it's not going away either, but if you do fly knit, you deal with it alot less.
Don
Nothing in place at the moment will fix the imbalance ... ENY is an incentive to switch (it's not a balancer) ... along with trying to take some of the pressure off the lower numbered team(s) by making the most populated team(s) fly lesser rides.
The long and short of it yanks ... the majority of the populace will endure the hardships (with whining) cause the fuzzy warm blanket of "numbers" makes them feel secure.
It all revolves around the fact that people don't want to die for fear of embarassment along with the mindset that "rank" really means something in this game.
As an experiment, I would love to see them disable ranking for 1 or 2 tours ... and then lets see how gameplay changes during that time period.
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Just a game.
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This outlet is a crutch. Not posting further, fear of the ping, (persona non grata)
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Originally posted by Shiryu
You define having a 51% advantage in numbers as "not as bad"?
Funny :aok
I've been on many of times where Rooks were flying at 20+ ENY because we had the numbers. Yet Bish and Nits were barely fighting each other. That means Rooks were fighting almost full forces at both ends and dealing with ENY.
I've said for a long time, that ENY should be determined by sectors on the map. If 80% of the players from one team are over hoarding the smaller team. Those guys at that side of the map should face ENY restrictions.
However the left over 20% that are likely out numbered at the other end, should not also be also penalized by the same ENY.
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
This the part or your quote that is causing you the problems. It should read "All countries SHOULD split their forces ". Unfortunately the mentality doesn't always follow a logical route. If the countries split their forces, and we had even fronts on all sides, even numbers like you posted wouldn't be a big deal, and the ENY would be helping. Unfortunately HTC can predict how the fronts are going to balance out because basically most are too busy either killing, or land grabbing to worry about strategy.
So basically "bogus ENY calculation" only comes into effect when your country is being ganged, and believe it or not, it happens to ALL countries at different times of day.
Most people don't seem want a real adversary, and hit the weakest country of the moment, irregardless....human nature I guess
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Nothing in place at the moment will fix the imbalance ... ENY is an incentive to switch (it's not a balancer) ... along with trying to take some of the pressure off the lower numbered team(s) by making the most populated team(s) fly lesser rides.
The long and short of it yanks ... the majority of the populace will endure the hardships (with whining) cause the fuzzy warm blanket of "numbers" makes them feel secure.
It all revolves around the fact that people don't want to die for fear of embarassment along with the mindset that "rank" really means something in this game.
As an experiment, I would love to see them disable ranking for 1 or 2 tours ... and then lets see how gameplay changes during that time period.
I agree:aok
i used to say i would be the last rook, but i fly rook and knit now, planning to fly bish some too but i don't know too many bish, but i have met so many more people switching to the low side, the game is alot more fun.
If you wanna stay loyal to one country, thats great, but you really are missing out on a chance to have even more fun then you can imagine.
MHO, Don :)
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Originally posted by crockett
I've been on many of times where Rooks were flying at 20+ ENY because we had the numbers. Yet Bish and Nits were barely fighting each other. That means Rooks were fighting almost full forces at both ends and dealing with ENY.
I've said for a long time, that ENY should be determined by sectors on the map. If 80% of the players from one team are over hoarding the smaller team. Those guys at that side of the map should face ENY restrictions.
However the left over 20% that are likely out numbered at the other end, should not also be also penalized by the same ENY.
Long time? Like, the year you've been playing? The ENY by sector would not work. ENY up in the sector your green hordlets are vulching? Take off from an adjacent field. Nothing changes, except for the field of origin. Enemy kicking your tail? Everyone stays in the tower, or goes to a different field. ENY goes up for the enemy, even though you were outnumbering them. Not a good solution.
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Originally posted by NHawk
If that's the case then this is where ENY becomes unfair.
Let's just say that 102 Rooks were exclusively attacking the Knights. The other 10 are trying to defend against the Bishop attack. Those 10 could be severely penalized by ENY.
How would the computer know if you were ingaged with a certain country. Is your statement true about those 10 people defending? I thought it was the same for all countrymen
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I've been switiching sides for a few TODs, now. I've met, and have enjoyed flying with many former adversaries, and this has enriched my AH experience.
For nearly three years I flew only Rooks (that's where my Squad was based) and I think, upon reflection, that this not only limited my individual skill growth, but also limited my personal interaction within the Community.
ENY is no longer a Factor for me, because when I log on...I look for the side which has the fewest numbers...I can fly any aircraft I want.
Just some thoughts....
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Originally posted by Patches1
I've been switiching sides for a few TODs, now. I've met, and have enjoyed flying with many former adversaries, and this has enriched my AH experience.
For nearly three years I flew only Rooks (that's where my Squad was based) and I think, upon reflection, that this not only limited my individual skill growth, but also limited my personal interaction within the Community.
ENY is no longer a Factor for me, because when I log on...I look for the side which has the fewest numbers...I can fly any aircraft I want.
Just some thoughts....
Someone has seen the light ... as well as yanksfan.
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A lot of true things have been said so far.
I'm interested whether anyone can explain why the ENY calculations could produce the numbers in the screenshots I posted in the OP. I still think that the population imbalance was far greater than the ENY numbers that resulted. I believe the numbers were an anamoly.
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Originally posted by sethipus
A lot of true things have been said so far.
I'm interested whether anyone can explain why the ENY calculations could produce the numbers in the screenshots I posted in the OP. I still think that the population imbalance was far greater than the ENY numbers that resulted. I believe the numbers were an anamoly.
I still fail to spot the anomaly.
ENY limit is only based on "total %" value, not "inflight" numbers.
Example 1: total % 41.8 ENY 6.7
Example 2: total % 43.2 ENY 10.5
Total % goes up - so does ENY.
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Originally posted by Lusche
I still fail to spot the anomaly.
ENY limit is only based on "total %" value, not "inflight" numbers.
Example 1: total % 41.8 ENY 6.7
Example 2: total % 43.2 ENY 10.5
Total % goes up - so does ENY.
Is it total % or the differential vs. the lowest side? I always thought it was the differential (i.e. not a set threshold of, say 40%), which would be how you could have two sides with ENY restrictions at the same time.
Even if it is based on differential, there is still no anomaly.
Rooks 41.8% - Knights 27.6% = 14.2% differential = ENY 6.7
Rooks 43.2% - Knights 26.6% = 16.6% differential = ENY 10.5
ENY does not escalate linearly, nor from the first % advantage, but the degree of advantage and degree of ENY do not indicate a discrepancy.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Long time? Like, the year you've been playing? The ENY by sector would not work. ENY up in the sector your green hordlets are vulching? Take off from an adjacent field. Nothing changes, except for the field of origin. Enemy kicking your tail? Everyone stays in the tower, or goes to a different field. ENY goes up for the enemy, even though you were outnumbering them. Not a good solution.
Wow get a tissy because I call a year a long time..
I don't mean sector as in a sector on the map. I mean breaking each map up into say 4 sections, I just called it a sector instead of a section.
I'm not saying it's a perfect idea but is it any better that the team with numbers can end up being out numbered at both ends, yet still have to deal with ENY? Is that really fair to that team?
At least the idea I'm tossing out might actually cause people whom are hoarding, to "want" to go to the other side of the map. I mean hell as it is now if one team is getting hoarded they tend to just leave the arena to go to the other, which drives the ENY up even more. So the team with numbers ends up getting screwed over simply because the lower number team gives up.
At least the idea I gave would give a reason for the guys doing the hoarding to go fly elsewhere.
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Originally posted by E25280
Is it total % or the differential vs. the lowest side? I always thought it was the differential (i.e. not a set threshold of, say 40%), which would be how you could have two sides with ENY restrictions at the same time.
Well, you are right - it is a differential, but that differential is based only on "total %" - i didn't express myself clear enough.
It's the differential between your country's total % and smallest country total% with a few modifiers thrown in - for example there is a minimum population limit before ENY can kick in.
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Originally posted by crockett
Wow get a tissy because I call a year a long time..
I don't mean sector as in a sector on the map. I mean breaking each map up into say 4 sections, I just called it a sector instead of a section.
I'm not saying it's a perfect idea but is it any better that the team with numbers can end up being out numbered at both ends, yet still have to deal with ENY? Is that really fair to that team?
At least the idea I'm tossing out might actually cause people whom are hoarding, to "want" to go to the other side of the map. I mean hell as it is now if one team is getting hoarded they tend to just leave the arena to go to the other, which drives the ENY up even more. So the team with numbers ends up getting screwed over simply because the lower number team gives up.
At least the idea I gave would give a reason for the guys doing the hoarding to go fly elsewhere.
What you have seen in the last 10 or 11 months is nothing compared to what things were like in the past. And it's sad that those who still insist on creating and maintaining the imbalances whine about the other side logging. What sort of fun do you think they're having when it's 2 or 3 to 1 whereever they go?
You are not getting hit with ENY because the other side doesn't have as many players- you are getting hit with ENY because you insist on being on the side with numbers. This attempt to blame the lesser numbers country(ies) is just idiotic.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
What you have seen in the last 10 or 11 months is nothing compared to what things were like in the past. And it's sad that those who still insist on creating and maintaining the imbalances whine about the other side logging. What sort of fun do you think they're having when it's 2 or 3 to 1 whereever they go?
You are not getting hit with ENY because the other side doesn't have as many players- you are getting hit with ENY because you insist on being on the side with numbers. This attempt to blame the lesser numbers country(ies) is just idiotic.
Funny you should say something about people not having much fun when it's 3 to 1. Wasn't it you the other night that added one more plane to the 3 or 4 guys that was gang banging me when I was flying a Hurri 1?
I switched sides to the Knights yesterday because I was tired of dealing with 20 to 29 ENY. Now granted the Nits were out numbered much of the time however you know what? I took a look in the other arena and guess who had the ENY there? The Nits.
So it's pretty obvious something isn't working like it's supposed to. It just shows that people want to be on the side with the big numbers so they can horde.
Something else I noticed while flying with Nits in orange. When I first switched sides Nits had a big horde at A18 (TT map) against bish. Bish had barely a half a bar of dar, yet their must have been 20 to 30 nits at A18.
Yet you look up north at the fight for A5 with the rooks and there were more rooks and only a hand full of nits. I know because that's where I was fighting. So to me it looked like you guys all just go where ever you can horde.
This was later confirmed when the bish got a CV close to A17. I moved down to the fight at A17 at that point. Next thing you know there is only a handful of nits at A17. I'd say 10 to 15 at best, with a crap load of bish swarming the feild.
Where did all the nits go? They were now up hoarding the rooks at A5 with a numbers advantage at that base because the Rooks were now heavily fighting Bish up in the north part of the map. So it seemed to me as soon as you guys don't have the numbers advantage you go elsewhere.
Now, I'm not going to say it's just a Nits thing, I know Rooks and Bish do the same sometimes. I've just been noticing a lot whenever I fight Nits it's always a horde fest it seems.
So as I said something isn't working right because it's far too easy for the horde to just move to another location. That's why I suggest breaking up the map into segments and have ENY dependant on how many players are in that area.
As it is right now there is nothing that is doing anything to stop the horde fests as it's pretty clear even the team with the lowest numbers that's causing the ENY can still horde one of the other teams while ignoring the third.
So by having ENY dictation by location on the map, it would give a penalty to the guys trying to horde but give a benefit to the guys that went to the other areas of the map. In sense it would give a reason to go fight the other team.
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Originally posted by crockett
Funny you should say something about people not having much fun when it's 3 to 1. Wasn't it you the other night that added one more plane to the 3 or 4 guys that was gang banging me when I was flying a Hurri 1?
I switched sides to the Knights yesterday because I was tired of dealing with 20 to 29 ENY. Now granted the Nits were out numbered much of the time however you know what? I took a look in the other arena and guess who had the ENY there? The Nits.
So it's pretty obvious something isn't working like it's supposed to. It just shows that people want to be on the side with the big numbers so they can horde.
Something else I noticed while flying with Nits in orange. When I first switched sides Nits had a big horde at A18 (TT map) against bish. Bish had barely a half a bar of dar, yet their must have been 20 to 30 nits at A18.
Yet you look up north at the fight for A5 with the rooks and there were more rooks and only a hand full of nits. I know because that's where I was fighting. So to me it looked like you guys all just go where ever you can horde.
This was later confirmed when the bish got a CV close to A17. I moved down to the fight at A17 at that point. Next thing you know there is only a handful of nits at A17. I'd say 10 to 15 at best, with a crap load of bish swarming the feild.
Where did all the nits go? They were now up hoarding the rooks at A5 with a numbers advantage at that base because the Rooks were now heavily fighting Bish up in the north part of the map. So it seemed to me as soon as you guys don't have the numbers advantage you go elsewhere.
Now, I'm not going to say it's just a Nits thing, I know Rooks and Bish do the same sometimes. I've just been noticing a lot whenever I fight Nits it's always a horde fest it seems.
So as I said something isn't working right because it's far too easy for the horde to just move to another location. That's why I suggest breaking up the map into segments and have ENY dependant on how many players are in that area.
As it is right now there is nothing that is doing anything to stop the horde fests as it's pretty clear even the team with the lowest numbers that's causing the ENY can still horde one of the other teams while ignoring the third.
So by having ENY dictation by location on the map, it would give a penalty to the guys trying to horde but give a benefit to the guys that went to the other areas of the map. In sense it would give a reason to go fight the other team.
It's all sides. Very hard to defeat human nature.
Bronk
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I don't think ENY will ever stop the horde mentality. To many people need the protection of numbers, even if it means they have to give up their beloved LA7.
ENY does exactly what it is suppose to do. It applies a handicap to the side with the numbers advantage. The reason this is needed, is too many have to stay in a pack for protection, and too many refuse to voluntarily switch sides to help even numbers (some squads will even kick members out for switching side:rolleyes: )
Your not going to break up the hordes, your not going to get people to learn "skills" and build their confidence so they can fight with out the support of 20 of their closest friends, so you might as well just get use to the ENY restrictions, or ignore them and fly different planes, or switch sides.
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Originally posted by Bronk
It's all sides. Very hard to defeat human nature.
Bronk
Yes I know that, I'm not trying to say it's just the knights doing it. I know for a fact both Rook and Bish do the same. Only point I was making, was to show that even the team that's out numbered can very easily and actually do horde, just the same as the higher numbered teams.
That's kinda the point behind the idea of dictating ENY by section rather than overall numbers. It's the only way that I can think of to penalize the horde.
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Originally posted by crockett
Funny you should say something about people not having much fun when it's 3 to 1. Wasn't it you the other night that added one more plane to the 3 or 4 guys that was gang banging me when I was flying a Hurri 1?
It doesn't appear that's the case. I don't have a kill on you, nor you on me. If I was one of them, was I the first one in, or the last one in?
On topic, ENY penalizes the side with numbers as it's setup now- one need only look at the whining to see this. What you want is, quite simply, a mechanism added to the game that allows you to fly with the horde, without suffering the penalty.
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Of course this is my own opinion, but I don't feel that ENY is the problem. I feel that its the tower sitting that has become the problem. Countless nights I see generally 20-40 players for each country just sitting in the tower. I realize people have children, wives, and pets to attend to but I'd like to see autolog off for a preset amount of time. I think it could make things a little better. But its just my 2 cents.
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Originally posted by 5PointOh
Of course this is my own opinion, but I don't feel that ENY is the problem. I feel that its the tower sitting that has become the problem. Countless nights I see generally 20-40 players for each country just sitting in the tower. I realize people have children, wives, and pets to attend to but I'd like to see autolog off for a preset amount of time. I think it could make things a little better. But its just my 2 cents.
I agree, say a 5min you are afk in the tower, you are booted.
Nothing worse than being hit with ENY and checking the numbers and seeing that one of the oterh countries has more number sin flight than you do.
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Originally posted by Tiger
I agree, say a 5min you are afk in the tower, you are booted.
There are many field acks or SB's to sit in... or even just up a GV at a remote field.
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Good Point Lusche, I was thinking 30min in tower-Buh Bye.
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i also think the ENY problem is exacerbated by the
arena caps. most of the time during day n early evening, ENY
will be high and stay because the low # country cant
log in more pilots because of the cap. so the ENY problem
lingers for longer periods.
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Originally posted by Lusche
There are many field acks or SB's to sit in... or even just up a GV at a remote field.
That's fine... atleast you can at like you are contributing. Look at the number son teh first post. 30+ people not inflight.
Add that and the arena caps, too many people wanting to get in to a certain areana with their squaddies for you to let people chill in the tower for hours on end.
As a conspiracy theory:
I wonder how many people have their shade accounts logged in and change its side to help bump up the ENY penalty?
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Originally posted by Tiger
As a conspiracy theory:
I wonder how many people have their shade accounts logged in and change its side to help bump up the ENY penalty?
Not many, if none. A single player has usually not much influence on ENY numbers.
A shade is much more "useful" in other roles...
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Originally posted by Tiger
That's fine... atleast you can at like you are contributing.
And that would simply render your auto-disco feature useless.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
On topic, ENY penalizes the side with numbers as it's setup now- one need only look at the whining to see this. What you want is, quite simply, a mechanism added to the game that allows you to fly with the horde, without suffering the penalty.
I think you are being a tad harsh toward Crockett on this one. He is describing where he is away from his side's horde, is facing an opposing horde, and yet is "crippled" by ENY because his country's horde is larger.
I would argue that he isn't really crippled as there are many capable planes to fly, even when ENY restricted, but that is beside his point.
The ENY restriction is just compounding the age-old complaint of "my country doesn't use it's resources properly." I would wager if he had a fair number of countrymen supporting his opposition of the enemy horde, he wouldn't have been quite as frustrated with the ENY restriction.
So, although I understand his frustration, it is misdirected IMO.
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He's still on the side with numbers, whether they are at his disposal or not. This is just another in a long line of "make ENY effect everyone but us" threads.
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Originally posted by E25280
I think you are being a tad harsh toward Crockett on this one. He is describing where he is away from his side's horde, is facing an opposing horde, and yet is "crippled" by ENY because his country's horde is larger.
I would argue that he isn't really crippled as there are many capable planes to fly, even when ENY restricted, but that is beside his point.
The ENY restriction is just compounding the age-old complaint of "my country doesn't use it's resources properly." I would wager if he had a fair number of countrymen supporting his opposition of the enemy horde, he wouldn't have been quite as frustrated with the ENY restriction.
So, although I understand his frustration, it is misdirected IMO.
Really anymore, I don't care too much about the hordes. I just fly around looking for good fights on my own and try to avoid running into the constant gang bang. The good fights tend to be far away from the hordes and the furballs.
I do get ticked, that it's rare you can ever find a good fight without 5 guys from the other team suddenly showing up or the con running to his ack or buddies. Better yet having someone on your own country jumping in even after u tell them u have it under control. (however that's a different topic)
The idea I was trying to present was a way to use ENY to give a "reason" to go fly outside the horde. If ENY was broken up by section of the map and carried a much harsher penalty it would likely get people to fly in other parts of the map where they weren't affected by the ENY.
See that's the entire thing with the way the game is set up right now. There is no "reason" for the average player to fly outside the horde. There is no incentive to do it, which is why I suggest a ENY by section. At that point there is a incentive to fly on the other side of the map, if they want their LA7 or Spit16 or even a 10 eny plane like a Hurri 2 or what ever.
I don't fly low perk planes very often, but 20+ ENY is pretty much a daily thing when flying Rooks especially late at night when I tend to fly a lot. You can't go to the other arena at those times because there will be 10 people in it.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
He's still on the side with numbers, whether they are at his disposal or not. This is just another in a long line of "make ENY effect everyone but us" threads.
If you are talking about me.. you haven't read anything I've said.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
He's still on the side with numbers, whether they are at his disposal or not. This is just another in a long line of "make ENY effect everyone but us" threads.
No, that's derailing by other people. The thread itself was actually about whether anyone can explain this apparent anomaly whereby a massive imbalance in numbers resulted in only a very modest ENY, over a fairly long period of time. I'm wondering whether there is a bug, or else some unintended loophole in the ENY calculations that under some set of conditions allowed for this.
I still maintain that the numbers imbalance I demonstrated with the screenshots I took should have resulted in significantly higher ENY. I was actually hoping someone from HTC would reply to it. Oh well.
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Originally posted by sethipus
(http://www.leigh.org/seth/wtfeny1.jpg)
(http://www.leigh.org/seth/wtfeny2.jpg)
I'd like to know how the Rooks could have 162% as many people on, and 213% as many people in the air, as the Knights, and only had an ENY of 10.5. My God, when Knights have come anywhere near these kinds of numerical advantages we've all been flying A6M2s and P-40s, and bombing with Bostons, for Heaven's Sake. And in this case the Rooks couldn't fly what, Ponies or better?
What gives? Why do the ENY values sometimes make so little sense?
OK... first, ENY has nothing to do with "In Flight", it is strictly off of number logged in. Second, you are comparing the Rooks to only the Knights. ENY is calculated based off of total numebr logged on.
The example's you posted are about right. Look at the % number there, 41 and 43 and ENY increased as their %-age increased.
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I reprise an earlier posting of mine:
ENY limit of a country is basically computed by comparing it's total players number with the total players number of the country with least population.
There is a minimum population arena has to rech before ENY kicks in, and there might be a few additional modifiers (has been tweaked a few times since it's introduction in summer 2004), but basically that's it.
It's consistent and same for all countries.
I do not see any problem/error in the example posted.
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Originally posted by WMLute
InFlight has no bearing on ENY.
The QUESTION would be why are roughly 40% of the Knights sitting in the tower?
THAT'S what killed ya'. Was there a mission about to roll or something?
The Real Question is:
Why and how do you geeks know there is actually a screen shot that tells you how the eny is balancing out?
They are not in the air Lute - because all of the ijots are sitting in the tower - looking at this screen showing the balancing and whining.....
Up a spit1 - actually come in from a sector away - dive down and kill some unlucky bastage - run away and land -- the perk points will make you happy again.....
You guys whine too much -
Imagine being on squad channel with wrag singing..... you will be happy that the only thing you need to complain about is the eny
NwBie
:aok
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Originally posted by Nwbie
The Real Question is:
Why and how do you geeks know there is actually a screen shot that tells you how the eny is balancing out?
They are not in the air Lute - because all of the ijots are sitting in the tower - looking at this screen showing the balancing and whining....
I realize you're just talking out of your anal orifice because you like hearing your own voice, but for the record, here (http://www.leigh.org/seth/ahss82.jpg) and here (http://www.leigh.org/seth/ahss85.jpg) are the original screenshots, converted from 9mb bmp files to 250-300kb jpegs. Obviously not taken from the tower.
Oh well, I guess unless they actually document the entire ENY calculation algorithms we'll never really know the rhyme or reason for why ENY is sometimes off the charts and sometimes it barely registers, even in conditions of massive population advantage for one team over the others.
It's one of those Mysteries Man Was Not Meant to Know.
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Your screenshots still do not show ANY inconsitency, now matter how often you post them
The differential between ROOK total population and the country with least total population is higher in screenshot 1, and so is resulting ENY. Where exactly is the problem????????
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Originally posted by sethipus
..... Obviously not taken from the tower.
Oh well, I guess unless they actually document the entire ENY calculation algorithms we'll never really know the rhyme or reason for why ENY is sometimes off the charts and sometimes it barely registers, even in conditions of massive population advantage for one team over the others.
It's one of those Mysteries Man Was Not Meant to Know.
It doesn't matter whether you took the screen shots from the tower or not, what people are trying to say is you can ignore the "in flight numbers". The only numbers that apply are the "population" numbers. this includes in flight, in tower, and in GV people. Some contend that the "in tower"population shouldn't be counted because like in the first picture the difference between the Rooks total (most populated) and Knights total (least populated) is the Rooks have 50% more, but if you go by those "in flight", the Rooks have about double the population.
Other than that, I see nothing wrong with the ENY here. Its the same for all sides, so you really don't have anything to complain about. Only problem you have is too many of your Knight buddys like to hide in the tower. Get them into the sky to give you a hand!:aok
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(Response to Crockett)
For some time I lobbied for a locally applied ENY system. On the surface, it sounds like the golden fix for the problem you described.
However, after sitting down to design a locally applied ENY system in enough detail to be able to codify the rules for it, I realized that applying it locally simply won't work right unless a LOT of work goes into coding it - so much so that would probably become too top heavy to work at all.
With any kind of ENY application that is localized enough to be of any real value, as soon as you shut off the other sides supply of vehicles through destroying the hangers or even through capping the field, you begin to shut off your OWN SUPPLY too as you drive the local ENY through the roof. Which would make it even MORE of a problem than it is now...
So until someone comes up with a completely nifty outside the box solution, the current system is probably the best available.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Long time? Like, the year you've been playing? The ENY by sector would not work. ENY up in the sector your green hordlets are vulching? Take off from an adjacent field. Nothing changes, except for the field of origin. Enemy kicking your tail? Everyone stays in the tower, or goes to a different field. ENY goes up for the enemy, even though you were outnumbering them. Not a good solution.
Actually Hub, crocketts idea works. It's one I've been a proponent of for a long time; localized ENY.
The thing is it has to apply to a 9 or 25 sector (3x3 or 5x5) area around your take off base (1-2 sectors in each direction) with a limiter (probably based on player numbers in the "ENY zone") so that taking off deep in your own territory doesn't force ENY on you.
It could even be expanded to 49 sectors (7x7; 3 sectors in each direction) or more as long as it's an odd number to allow for a centralized take-off sector. Playing with the ENY zone size would allow HiTech to tweak the system to maximize the desired effect.
The downside to this is that it would have to be based on in-flight numbers rather than logged-in numbers unless HT has a way of counting people in towers within the zone which they may.
Regardless, I would still envision an overall ENY with this as either an add-on or a modifiyer.
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So how exactly could it work? I don't think I've ever seen anyone spit out an ENY formula- there's almost always a "I'm not sure how exactly it would work, but HT could figure it out" clause, and other people saying their idea will work, but not how.
How would it deal with missions? What if 2 bases are 5 sectors apart- one under attack by one country, the other by another country? Would people be able to defend both bases, assuming they had fewer total players, but everyone was in those few sectors? What would happen if they all sat in the tower for 10 minutes? A localized system would have to require a huge amount of work, it seems. It would have to compare so many factors in order to be an improvement, that I really doubt that it could work as well, or better than what we have.
There's one simpler alternative that encourages people to quit flying with the horde- Actually disable flight at 30, and ramp ENY up quickly initially. You guys would come up with all sorts of ENY alternatives then, but they'd still be for the same reasons.
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BaldEagle, that's exactly what I was working through the logic for some time ago ... and I realized - it just doesn't work unless you make the area so large as to be virtually indistinguishable from the current "entire arena" system - or remove the ability to destroy hangers from the arena.
Otherwise, the moment someone destroys the hangers denying the enemy the ability to launch aircraft, you lose the ability to relaunch.
(http://webpages.charter.net/gh4stly/fixeny.jpg)
Here's a graphic - now imagine what happens when a guy with a bomber or 3 shuts down the hangers at A53?
The complete write up is on this page, very nearly at the bottom of the page. Before I realized that there was a gaping hole in the logic, I mean.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209329&perpage=40&highlight=sectors&pagenumber=2 (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209329&perpage=40&highlight=sectors&pagenumber=2)
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How about rather than whining about ENY and how you get hit with it too often or the other side isn't hit hard enough, you just flay a plane and shoot down the red guys and have fun?
I've never seen the A6M, spit I, or P-40 ENY'd out. Use the opprtunity to fly something other than the LA-7 or P-51, you might actually enjoy it.
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Originally posted by Tiger
How about rather than whining about ENY and how you get hit with it too often or the other side isn't hit hard enough, you just flay a plane and shoot down the red guys and have fun?
I've never seen the A6M, spit I, or P-40 ENY'd out. Use the opprtunity to fly something other than the LA-7 or P-51, you might actually enjoy it.
Here ..Here...!!!!
You just said it better than me ..thats all...
for all the :cry
there is :rofl
if you find the OTHER planes in the hanger
Newbs
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
So how exactly could it work? I don't think I've ever seen anyone spit out an ENY formula- there's almost always a "I'm not sure how exactly it would work, but HT could figure it out" clause, and other people saying their idea will work, but not how.
How would it deal with missions? What if 2 bases are 5 sectors apart- one under attack by one country, the other by another country? Would people be able to defend both bases, assuming they had fewer total players, but everyone was in those few sectors? What would happen if they all sat in the tower for 10 minutes? A localized system would have to require a huge amount of work, it seems. It would have to compare so many factors in order to be an improvement, that I really doubt that it could work as well, or better than what we have.
There's one simpler alternative that encourages people to quit flying with the horde- Actually disable flight at 30, and ramp ENY up quickly initially. You guys would come up with all sorts of ENY alternatives then, but they'd still be for the same reasons.
Here's one idea:
Lets say Bish and Knighs both have 100 players in the arena and Rooks have 200. Current Rook ENY is 20 (not sure how it's calculated now so this is just as an example) while Bish and Knights face no restrictions.
Now lets say Rooks are steamrolling Knights on one side while a few defend against Bish on the other. Rooks are playing 150 against the Knights while 50 defend against Bish and Bish and Knights are evenly distributed 50 per front.
So, on one side of the map it's 150 Rooks against 50 Knights for a 3 to one advantage locally. On this side of the map you might simply add 3 (or whatever the odds are) to the overall ENY making it 23 locally.
On the other side of the map you have 50 Rooks against 50 Bish or 1 to 1. That ENY would remain at 20.
Why would it remain you ask? Becase to be effective it would have to be an additive for over odds as shown above, but a multiplication for under-odds (with the break point being 1 to 1).
So, if there were 175 Rooks fighting Knights, then their local ENY would be 23.5 (20 ENY + 3.5) while the 25 facing the 50 bish would reduce ENY to 10 (1 to 2 odds or 20 ENY X 0.5).
You could just make this an addition or subraction although it wouldn't be as effective on the low number side affected by ENY.
Like I said before, the ENY zone size could also be tweaked to get the desired results.
People would be able to up in a low ENY area and fly to a high ENY area although it would take time and fuel and for most probably wouldn't be worthwhile.
As to missions sitting in towers, there is that. Maybe cielings and floors need to be set, say at plus or minus 10 from current ENY so in the above examples 10 would be the floor and 30 would be the cieling.
It might take some programming but it's not rocket science. You're simply taking a count of players in a specific area, calculating odds and modifying the existing ENY.
[EDIT] I just want to add that this can also work against the Bish and Knights in the above example on a local basis, even though they face no overall ENY restrictions. If Bish were hoarding Knights at say 60 to 10 they could have a local ENY of 6 on one side of the map while on the other side ENY would remain at 0.
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What happens when those fights are in the same grid? What happens when a mission ups, and all the defenders clear out? What sort of ENY values would you have with 30 planes and no defenders?
How could you prevent people from directly influencing ENY at any moment?
I'm not thinking it's as easy as everyone claims. If there were something better, and simple, I think HTC would have done that instead.
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Here is a simple fix for ENY, that the more I think about it, the more I like it....
Maybe ENY should be set for each player at the point where it is when they log in or change sides - and remain at that level until they log out or change sides again.
This would:
A) Further encourage sideswitching to the lower side when you log in
B) Further discourage switching to the higher side later in the game.
C) End the current nonsense of sitting in the tower hoping to wait out "bad" ENY - the only way to get better ENY is to log out and come back when it's better, or switch sides.
It wouldn't interfere and penalize those players who chose their side when the numbers were even.
Nor would it further handicap those players who are already fighting with a local numbers disadvantage.
Nor would it be subject to all the silliness where half the players on one side log as soon as it appears that a reset is imminent, leaving the remaining players scratching their heads as they try to finish off the reset with TBF's and a Goon.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
What happens when those fights are in the same grid? What happens when a mission ups, and all the defenders clear out? What sort of ENY values would you have with 30 planes and no defenders?
How could you prevent people from directly influencing ENY at any moment?
I'm not thinking it's as easy as everyone claims. If there were something better, and simple, I think HTC would have done that instead.
This idea would be based on where you up from, not on where you fight. Fights in the same grid wouldn't matter. Upping from overlapping ENY zones would and ENY is simply modified up or down depending on the player odds in the zone surrounding your take-off field.
If a mission ups and all defenders clear out, then ENY for anyone else wanting to up in the mission country near those mission participants would be affected by ENY to the maximum allowed (base ENY + 10 in the examples above).
You couldn't influence people from affecting ENY and wouldn't want to. That's what this is all about. You want there to be a small additional penalty for upping with the hoard but a very nice reduction in ENY for going where you're country is outnumbered.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
This idea would be based on where you up from, not on where you fight. Fights in the same grid wouldn't matter. Upping from overlapping ENY zones would and ENY is simply modified up or down depending on the player odds in the zone surrounding your take-off field.
If a mission ups and all defenders clear out, then ENY for anyone else wanting to up in the mission country near those mission participants would be affected by ENY to the maximum allowed (base ENY + 10 in the examples above).
You couldn't influence people from affecting ENY and wouldn't want to. That's what this is all about. You want there to be a small additional penalty for upping with the hoard but a very nice reduction in ENY for going where you're country is outnumbered.
In the end, it's not trying to encourage overall balance, which is the root problem. This would require a lot of additional code to prevent simple workarounds, and in the end, this would only create high ENYs for short periods of time, while doing nothing to actively encourage balance. The low numbers side would at times be facing the same penalties as the horde country, or higher.
The more you expand on this idea, the less plausible it seems.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
In the end, it's not trying to encourage overall balance, which is the root problem. This would require a lot of additional code to prevent simple workarounds, and in the end, this would only create high ENYs for short periods of time, while doing nothing to actively encourage balance. The low numbers side would at times be facing the same penalties as the horde country, or higher.
The more you expand on this idea, the less plausible it seems.
This isn't to address overall balance which the current ENY system attempts to do and still would.
This attempts to address local imbalance and hoarding.
But... you're right. Nothing can be done. What we have is the best. No need for any new ideas. I'll give up.
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I know how to fix it.... {grin}
Seriously though BaldEagle, I think that if you think it through, you'd realise that applying a local ENY would work very counterintuitively in that as soon as someone kills the local supply of aircraft via closing the enemy hangers, the fight would have to die - they couldn't take off and neither could you, and everyone would be forced to find a different fight.
That's not the intent, I'm sure.
!
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Now, I'm gonna bash my own idea before I even state it. Because I know it won't work. But I can see why Local ENY doesn't work. Though, I don't have to really worry about the ENY system right now... P-40Es and D3As rarely have that little problem.
The reason I'm bashing it is because it would use mostly rank, and as I have seen, Rank has diddly to do with skill.
Okay, why not set it up so only a certain number of planes of a certain type can take off from a base? Say a Base has 5 La-7s, 5 Spit16, and 5 P-51Ds (though I think those numbers may be a bit high.) Now, those planes are all that the base gets, say, hourly. (Mind, if someone happened to land one of thier pretty high performance Fighter aircraft the plane would be placed back into base inventory, and give people a reason to land thier pretty fighters.)
The person with the Higher Rank (eh...) gets first pick. They would have the option to get a better plane. And the people who actually know how to fly other planes wouldn't have such a big problem. Now, I will admit that the Rank system would actually cause the worst players to pick the worst (Well, just weaker... I suppose) set of aircraft. Thusly forcing them to improve thier skills. Or Rankdweeb. I think there could be a way to make it work, but I haven't been here long enough to see a way other than Rank. But this tends to be one of the smarter communities I go to. So, if this is even slightly good, someone can figure something out.
But if you ask me when I see a plane I fly ENY'd, I just fly something else, oh no, I have to move my mouse 5 inches, and click something else (:O how dare!) Sure it's less capable but that's never been a big issue to me. I suck in everything.
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Originally posted by Tiger
How about rather than whining about ENY and how you get hit with it too often or the other side isn't hit hard enough, you just flay a plane and shoot down the red guys and have fun?
I've never seen the A6M, spit I, or P-40 ENY'd out. Use the opprtunity to fly something other than the LA-7 or P-51, you might actually enjoy it.
I've been doing this, but ENY changes so fast you still end up getting caught up in it. Yesterday I flew for the bish, because they were far outnumbered in orange when I logged on.
So I log on today and I'm still a bish. I see that the numbers are pretty much even and no one has ENY. I switch to Rooks to go back to my normal country and help out with the country I like to fly with. Within 3 sorties ENY was over 15 for Rooks. Now, because of the side switching limit I can't switch sides for another hour or two.
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Here is a thought..why not have the game set up so you have to select a country when you enter the arena. If there are too many players on the country you pick, well you can't enter that arena unless you pick a diffrent country.
That would mean once a country has too many players they are cut off from new joins until the numbers even up. Country swaps would have to be controlled as well once players were inside. This would mean ENY would be a thing of the past, you would just have to auto kick players that sit idel too long or stay in the tower too long.
I just took these two screen shots about 20 mins ago.. Tell me what's wrong with this picture..
Orange Arena..
(http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/orange.jpg)
Blue Arena
(http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/blue.jpg)
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Not bad Crockett, but I'll go you one better... You can enter the arena on the side you were last on just like now, and choose any side you want just like now presuming you aren't inside the timer - but whatever ENY is when you enter the arena or change sides to a side is what you get from then on until you leave or change sides.
No hope of improvement until and unless you leave the arena or change to another side.
This would solve most of the problems... and leave people the flexibility to be as inflexible as they want as long as they don't mind paying the price.
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We would have to have some sort of inactivity timer to boot people. We would also lose the option to disable flight, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't really happen regardless of what it says. In addition, I'd propose making the ENY flexible, but retaining, as a minimum, the ENY value when you logged in.
Aside from disabling flight, or ramping up the ENY formula to get nastier, earlier, I can't think of anything that would make people more miserable than your idea, which seems to be a good indicator for how effective something is. :)
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Originally posted by crockett
Here is a thought..why not have the game set up so you have to select a country when you enter the arena. If there are too many players on the country you pick, well you can't enter that arena unless you pick a diffrent country.
That would mean once a country has too many players they are cut off from new joins until the numbers even up. Country swaps would have to be controlled as well once players were inside. This would mean ENY would be a thing of the past, you would just have to auto kick players that sit idel too long or stay in the tower too long.
I just took these two screen shots about 20 mins ago.. Tell me what's wrong with this picture..
Orange Arena..
(http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/orange.jpg)
Blue Arena
(http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/blue.jpg)
They already tried to do something like this in the MAs forcing people to balance only gets the crybabies going
CHECK THIS OUT (http://webpages.charter.net/maddogjoe/cartoon_balance.htm)
I put that together after they tried it the last time. :D