Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: GHO5T on October 07, 2007, 04:46:40 AM
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hi all,
ive been playing for a few days now, and ive been flying the p51d and the spit 9.. im finding im not flying the p51 that well at low alt..i loose to much E and get shot down to easy,
should i fly the spit 9, or is there a better plane to start learning about the game alot more?
and lastly should i turn of the stall limiter?
cheers
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That is exactly one of the differences between a p51 and spit9.
low and slow the spit9 is way better than the p51.
High and fast the p51 is way better than the spit9
Then there is a middle layer where things get fun between those two birds. :)
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so if i fly the p51 i should try to avoid being sucked down to the deck, and try and keep the fight on my terms..up high, but is the p51 stll a good plane for me to being a newbie in, about my 4th day of playing for a few hours
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I think almost any fighter in the planeset at one time has been pointed out as a good starter plane...
If you like the Mustang - then by all means - use that. Learn all the basic fight manouvres, learn to aim and shoot, and have great fun with it.
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On your fourth day you shouldnt be getting shot down ... because you should be in the Training Arena :aok There are a lot of good people there that just love to help out people.
If you chose to run before you learn how to walk, I'd stick with the Spit 9 or 8. Both are very forgiving and allow a newer player to learn a bit from their mistakes (hopefully).
I'd turn the stall limiter off. You might as well jump in with both feet.
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Originally posted by GHO5T
hi all,
ive been playing for a few days now, and ive been flying the p51d and the spit 9.. im finding im not flying the p51 that well at low alt..i loose to much E and get shot down to easy,
should i fly the spit 9, or is there a better plane to start learning about the game alot more?
and lastly should i turn of the stall limiter?
cheers
Like it has been said before, if you are fond of the Pony, fly it. Best motivation and reason to fly a specific plane is some sort of personal affection to it. If you like it, you should fly it!
However if you absolutely do not care about the exact type of plane you are flying, the Spit IX might be the better choice sto start with. Successful fighting in a P51D needs a little bit more discipline and thought than a Spit IX (or VIII or XVI). (On the other hand, that may be a good thing after all ;))
A plane quite often recommended for beginners is the Spitfire VIII, which has, compared to the IX, a longer range, and more power & speed. But the IX is still fine, and if you are feeling comfortable in it, go ahead & fly it.
Stall limiter: Better turn it off from the beginning. It might seem more difficult at first, but keeping the limiter on seriously degrades your performance, especially impeding when flying planes depending on a high degree of maneuverabilty like the Spitfires do.
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cheers,
ill play with the spit VIII untill i get quite compatent with the game, i like the p51 but i really dont like it when you lose alot of e and are drawn into turn fighting
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Originally posted by GHO5T
cheers,
ill play with the spit VIII untill i get quite compatent with the game, i like the p51 but i really dont like it when you lose alot of e and are drawn into turn fighting
Well there is your problem. Nobody draws you into a turn fight, you allow your self to go there. Using discipline and NOT turning more than half a circle and keeping your speed up makes the pony very dangerous on the deck. There are some in this game who can fight their pony against a spit turning under 100 knots and win, but those guys have flown countless hours in the pony and died as many deaths.
So its up to you what you fly, and how you fly it. Spending time in the Training area WITH a trainer is a great way to spend the first week or so in this game. Just banging around the TA gets boring real fast, but a trainer is a wealth of information, and can give you instant feed back on how your flying. On the other hand you could fight in the MA's and spend WEEKS trying to figure out what your doing wrong :D
There is a lot of frustration in this game, but when you get into a fight and your twisting a turning and you finally shoot down the last plane, looking around to be sure its clear. Thats when you'll notice your covered in sweat, your hearts pounding, and you have this silly little grin stuck on your face, You'll KNOW it's all worth it. Welcome to Aces High !
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I'd stick with a Spit if I were you. They aren't the best at anything but they do everything well and you can play any style of fight with them.
One thing to note: Spits are generally considered among the top threats so you'll get lots of attention but what better way to learn to fight?
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When I first started, all I wanted to do was fly U.S. planes--Corsairs, Ponies, Jugs. I struggled for a good long while, maybe a couple of months, until I started flying the Spit 9. Spent lots of time in the Training Arena. Then, one day in the Main Arena, it started to click. I started flying the U.S. planes taking the lessons I learned in the Spit 9 and applying them.
Good Luck!
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When you learn how to fly the F4U, the Spitfire may seem like a sports car, but the F4U will be like some crazy muscle car. It's like a Spitfire but with the added advantage of being able to extend or dive away in order to gain a bit of separation... which you will find a very important thing.
Also the Corsair's got crazy-good slotted flaps which add up to a very fast turn rate. I'm not sure why the P-47 doesn't have a similar increase in turn rate since I believe it too, has slotted flaps.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
I'm not sure why the P-47 doesn't have a similar increase in turn rate since I believe it too, has slotted flaps.
Might have something to do with the extra 2,000 lbs its lugging around...
:)
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haha true say.. i meant that its turn rate didnt increase by a similar percentage or proportion.. i'm not exactly sure on how to explain it :rolleyes:
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If I had to do it again, I would definately go to the training arena. Instead, after very long while of flying, I find myself learning what I should have learned many moons ago. Howsoever, learning some of those things now has made the game that much more fun.
As far as planes, I have to agree with the spit IX. However, I started with the F6.
Fly them all and learn what you can about each. It is fascinating.
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I'm probably in the minority but I feel that starting in the spit does more to limit progress then help. Most spit drivers are very ACM/E managment limited...
F6F/109F4/C205/Ki-61 are all great planes to learn on. I tend to prefer the F6F since it helps to evolve an understanding of flaps a bit more then the other 3. All 4 will "force" you to explore out of plane manuevering and the use of flaps/rudder to "saddle up".
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been in the training area and had alot of tips in the ma, been flying in the ma for about 4 days now, and ive been landing with 4 - 5 kills at a time, and doing pretty well in a spit 9... ive learnt alot
i absoutley love the spits..so much so when ive been back in a pony it just did not feel as good..i think im going to be sticking with the spits :) plus its a brittish plane..and im brittish too heheh
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Originally posted by humble
I'm probably in the minority but I feel that starting in the spit does more to limit progress then help. Most spit drivers are very ACM/E managment limited...
F6F/109F4/C205/Ki-61 are all great planes to learn on. I tend to prefer the F6F since it helps to evolve an understanding of flaps a bit more then the other 3. All 4 will "force" you to explore out of plane manuevering and the use of flaps/rudder to "saddle up".
My own philosophy behind recommending an "easy mode" ride like the Spit is:
A new player has to learn alot and is quickly overloaded even in a "simple" ride. Game interface, basic situational awareness, gameplay. Even most basic maneuvers are unknown, and getting hits on an enemy is no easy task. So it's probably better to put him in an comparatively easy and forgiving all round plane. Most Spitfires lend themselves to different combat styles as well, not limiting the player too much. Once he has gained some knowledge and some confidence in his abilities, he may switch to other, potentially more challenging, planes.
While I am very fond of the 109F, I wouldn't really recommend it to a new player because of it's sluggish high speed handling and weak armament. The latter being a possible source of frustration, and I would rather like to motivate new players. Nothing motivates better than a few kills. Learn the basics, then move on.
But like I said before: If a new player has already favourite plane for whatever reasons, he should go ahead and fly it, whether Spit, La-7, C.202 or 109F.
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Originally posted by GHO5T
ive been playing for a few days now, and ive been flying the p51d and the spit 9.. im finding im not flying the p51 that well at low alt..i loose to much E and get shot down to easy,
The spits are more forgiving down low and slow on the deck. But ultimately low and slow in any aircraft is real bad news and should be avoided if you want to get out in one piece. My point is, if you want to live, learn to always allow a contingency to get out. Be that as alt, speed, or other. Then you wont have to fall back on the slow-speed handling characteristics of any aircraft when you stuff up and are low and slow on the deck (eg bait). When you take this mindset, it liberates you from having to always fly aircraft which have good slow speed handling and opens the door to many aircraft like the P51, P47s, 190s and 109s etc etc.
Originally posted by GHO5T
should i fly the spit 9, or is there a better plane to start learning about the game alot more?
Spit 8 is pretty competitive in the MA. The Mk9 can be too. The N1k2 is also a good starting option.
Originally posted by GHO5T
and lastly should i turn of the stall limiter?
Absolutely. Just DONT. Turn it off and leave it off.
Also, all this talk of "turn ability" in purely absolute terms is total rubbish. So called 'bad turners' can turn with, or even out turn, any 'good turner' fighter if they keep their aircraft near their best corner velocity. Eg a P51 can turn competitively with a spit, provided you keep the turn speed toward the P51s corner velocity rather than the spits. In practice in a P51 this means turning at higher speeds. Using gravity (either up or down attitude) can help you moderate your speed and stay near your best corner velocity. Knowing how speed affects your turn abilities and your enemies, is key to winning any angles contest.
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Originally posted by Lusche
My own philosophy behind recommending an "easy mode" ride like the Spit is:
A new player has to learn alot and is quickly overloaded even in a "simple" ride. Game interface, basic situational awareness, gameplay. Even most basic maneuvers are unknown, and getting hits on an enemy is no easy task. So it's probably better to put him in an comparatively easy and forgiving all round plane. Most Spitfires lend themselves to different combat styles as well, not limiting the player too much. Once he has gained some knowledge and some confidence in his abilities, he may switch to other, potentially more challenging, planes.
While I am very fond of the 109F, I wouldn't really recommend it to a new player because of it's sluggish high speed handling and weak armament. The latter being a possible source of frustration, and I would rather like to motivate new players. Nothing motivates better than a few kills. Learn the basics, then move on.
But like I said before: If a new player has already favourite plane for whatever reasons, he should go ahead and fly it, whether Spit, La-7, C.202 or 109F.
Absolutely an argument with very valid points on both sides. While learning on a spit (or similiar) bird can certainly help someone thru some of the initial growing pains I think it creates some very real bad habits. Obviously if the "baby seal" is well coached early this might be minimized or eliminated however most spit dirvers (even good ones) are fairly deficient in overall ACM.
I'm far from the top of the heap in pure 1 on 1 fights but I'm also pretty well rounded. So putting me at a "solid 8" what I see is alot of guys who cant beat me in a ki-61 or D11 or 109E in any flavor of spit and a second subset who cant "win" but eventually the rubberband on my ride winds out and I'm in an endgame I dont have the power to win. Occasionly I'll eek it out but most of the time the fight ends when I stall in. Now there is a subset of "dueling aces" that are very good in a co-e angles fight and actually a bit less uber in a disimiliar plane variable E engagement. Most of the generally recognized "ubber sticks" dont even bother with the spit.
I left the hog and 38 out since I think they are darn near impossible to learn on. I see alot of spit drivers whose view of ACM (even if they dont know it) boils down entirely to I'm going to get my lift vector in front of you and work the throttle. Again the combination of good turn, good e retention, good acceleration and high AoA creates a wealth of early success against "average" opposition at the expense of developing a good "3D" view of ACM. I posted this way back on the here and on the 71st site. P-40b vs Nikki (http://www.71sqn.co.uk/Films/P40vN1ki.ahf) Here's aguy who pretty consistantly ranked in the top few hundred with no clue at all about ACM.
I'm certainly not going to argue the benifit of success to the learning curve or the reality that cutting your teeth on a midwar "jack of all trade" birds is more frustrating in the beginning. I used to tell the folks I worked with that if you give it 10 hours you'll be able to fight me or any trainer (or any DA ace) thru 30-45 seconds in any of the above. You'll hardly ever win (at that point) but you'll know stick, throttle, rudder and flaps and be able to judge angles, e state and 3 dimensional "angle off" well enough to "make a fight"...
I found that when that "baby seal" got turned lose on a spit and then came back 3 months later more then one was good enough I couldnt beat them spit to spit. If you can get a spit driver thinking in 3D the plane is deadly....again i found that it was easier to teach that in a plane that more or less demanded it to succeed and then let the "trainee" transform that knowledge to the spit....
Again just a "dissenting" view on the spitty as a favored training ride...
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This is a pretty good plane.
(http://www.oldtools.com/FW10743.jpg)
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Originally posted by humble
While learning on a spit (or similiar) bird can certainly help someone thru some of the initial growing pains I think it creates some very real bad habits...Again just a "dissenting" view on the spitty as a favored training ride...
I'd agree with this if you're talking about the Spit 5 and Spit 16. Its maneuverability of the first, and almost all aspects of the second, will teach some bad habits. A Spit 16 in particular is successful in the hands of an inexperienced, lesser-skilled MA Pilot as its performance will gloss over their lack of knowledge, piloting, situational awareness, or all three. Other bad habits used by new guys are: over-dependence on firepower (Niki), over-dependence on speed (190D9/P-51D), or both (Typhoon/LA7). But, the Spit 9 doesn't have overwhelming maneuverability, firepower, or speed--but it is good at all three. That's why I think its a good starter. Plus, you can fight low, fight high, e-fight, turn fight, etc. Just a solid, all-around good plane for the MA. Plus, its extreme pitch axis sensitivity teaches you how to be smooth and less ham-fisted, as it will perform beautifully within its envelope, but will perform a nasty snap roll when it get slow and you yank on the stick.
I would encourage people to fly those planes they are in love with--that's why we play this game. But, like my personal experience, those planes I was interested in take a bit more experience to be successful with in the MA. So, learn the basics in the Spit, but fly what you want to fly as well occasionally, just to satisfy your desire to fly a P-38 for example. At least until you can fly your dream ride in the MA without getting killed so often you get discouraged.
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I more or less agree with Stoney and Lusche.
You don't want to start the game getting frustrated.
Get up in a plane with a 'lighter' workload like a spit, get some kills, figure out SA and how the game works. Once you get some time under your belt and the SA part becomes more natural, you can try a plane that requires more 'work' to fly well.
I can't imagine starting in a 109F. I'd probably quit in frustration.
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Here's the flip side to that argument.
There have been significant studies that show a kind of "learned inertia" in all kinds of area's of skill development. Once you start down a given path your "range of learning" tends to decrease. A "big hitter" in golf learns all kinds of cute recovery, "flip wedge", sandplay etc...but cant work a 6 iron into the breeze to a tight pin. The short hitter often has a worse 65 yd and in game (suprisingly so) but actually can hit more greens from 135 to 220 and has better control of his ball flight.
Going back to the topic at hand, your meshing different skill sets. SA is totally unrelated to pilot workload. In fact pilot workload is equal across the board IMO. A 109F is no harder to fly then the spitty in that regard.
The difference is simple, a spit lends itself to 2 dimensional flying (and thinking). You watch most spit drivers and even when they are flying in 3D they are thinking in 2D. This is a state of mind, not a skill set.
It takes about 2 hours to teach someone the fundementals of 3D dogfighting...thats all. Now achieving a reasonable level of competence is probably about 100 hrs of combat time. The guy flying the spit normally gets stuck early in the learning curve since the "moves" that bring a minimum level of success are counter productive over the long run.
The counterpart to "grip, stance & posture" is "rudder, throttle & trim"...
build a good foundation and you have a better chance of playing to "scratch". Once learned, never forgotten...never learned early...always FUBAR. Again just my 2 cents...
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Originally posted by humble
A "big hitter" in golf learns all kinds of cute recovery, "flip wedge", sandplay etc...but cant work a 6 iron into the breeze to a tight pin. The short hitter often has a worse 65 yd and in game (suprisingly so) but actually can hit more greens from 135 to 220 and has better control of his ball flight.
How do you classify Tiger then? :)