Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Cmustard on October 08, 2007, 12:07:40 AM
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People of aces high i am sick of everyone thinking hoing is a bad thing.In world war 2 pilots hoed,everybody hoed !Now in the content of the game the (ho) isnt bad intell someone colides .Other than that people need to stop whinning because the got shot dwn by a bad thing so called (ho) .Most caes are when someone hos something with cannon and they dont have cannon :cry .HOEN IS OK AS LONG AS (u dont colide);)
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HOing does not display any level of skill. Yet at the same time Whining about being HOed does not display skill either. I assume everyone is going to HO me so I do not approach enemies at an angle they can HO. If they HO then I can avoid and have an advantage.
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This is true hoeing does not show skill ,that being said if ur going head on with the person u cant turn right or hell turn and now hes on ur tail+u cant turn left or hell be on ur tail.So sometimes u have to ho ! and if u dont u have a huge disadvantage.:aok then i get to hear them whine on range :(
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Don't approach head on. Direct your nose about 20º left/right/below them and adjust your angle when they reach 1000yds. They will miss the HO and you're able to get an angle on them. I fly a P38 which is a big plane but use angles to make the P38 seem smaller than most single engine fighters. Only time I recieve/complain about HOs are when I'm fighting 3 or more cons and can't spend too much time concentrating on someone who may HO me.
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i guess so i dont pay that much attention in it.When im fighting most people are loooking for a nice fight they want quick picks,So if they dont get there first pick they run .So by avoding ho when u turn around there 3 k thataway and run n out more.So when im in battle i stick to HO everyone so i dont ever get the disadvantage ,but when ya ho u need to no what ur hoen :)and i consider a ho clean as long as theres no colisions involved its a clean kill in my book:cool:
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Originally posted by Cmustard
i guess so i dont pay that much attention in it.When im fighting most people are loooking for a nice fight they want quick picks,So if they dont get there first pick they run .So by avoding ho when u turn around there 3 k thataway and run n out more.
If you HO on a pass you could have avoided, you may be taken out of the fight yourself, as well as the enemy. Its a pointless risk.
"So when im in battle i stick to HO everyone so i dont ever have to aim"
Fixed :aok
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I would rather have a good fight than get HO'ed on the first pass.
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Originally posted by Motherland
If you HO on a pass you could have avoided, you may be taken out of the fight yourself, as well as the enemy. Its a pointless risk.
It isn't pointless when you are trying to break up a CAP. They have farther to fly to return to the fight than you do. ;)
I do love the IL2 so . . . :D
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Originally posted by Cmustard
People of aces high i am sick of everyone thinking hoing is a bad thing
et·i·quette (ĕt'ĭ-kĕt', -kĭt): The practices and forms prescribed by social convention or by authority.
If "everyone" has a negative opinion on something then there must be a social convention involved. Actually "everyone" does not think HOing is a bad thing, but the majority do have an unfavorable opinion of it when used in certain circumstances.
So what you are saying is that you don't like etiquette of the AH community. My reply is too bad. You can take the time to learn the skills where a HO attempt is just one of many options of how to handle a merge, or you can rely on HO as a crutch and likely hear complaints about it from other players. Your alternative of whining about everyone elses whines to changing their minds doesnt seem very realistic.
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Originally posted by E25280
It isn't pointless when you are trying to break up a CAP. They have farther to fly to return to the fight than you do. ;)
I do love the IL2 so . . . :D
Pretty much the only time I ho. That and when Im GV hunting and someone is stupid enough to ho my Il2, its darwinism. That doesnt happen that much anymore though, usually fly the Stuka... 2x 7.92s.. yah...
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Originally posted by Raptor
Don't approach head on.
Sometimes they are unavoidable--those are the extremely frustrating ones.
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I think everyone has there opinion about the mattter and were all pretty correct in my opinion. But im strickly talking about people that think hoeing is bad for instence someone will say (ya nice ho) A ho is a clean shot ather u win or u loose!As long as u colide ho's are perfectly fine no matter what people say about it because fact of matter is that ww2 pilots hoed ,everyone hoed in the war but my main topic from the beginning in typing this Topic was to tell people hoeing really isnt a bad thing!:D
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Yes there are many ho's that u cant get out of and when this occurs lets say u win 99% of the time u'll get a pm or someone whinning on 200 with a very stupid or silly remark of (nice ho dweeb) . Well i got news for everyone IT TAKES 2 TO HO!:lol
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Originally posted by Cmustard
I think everyone has there opinion about the mattter and were all pretty correct in my opinion. But im strickly talking about people that think hoeing is bad for instence someone will say (ya nice ho) A ho is a clean shot ather u win or u loose!As long as u colide ho's are perfectly fine no matter what people say about it because fact of matter is that ww2 pilots hoed ,everyone hoed in the war but my main topic from the beginning in typing this Topic was to tell people hoeing really isnt a bad thing!:D
Ramming was a WWII tactic too. Does that validate ramming?
"Well i got news for everyone IT TAKES 2 TO HO!"
Not always. Sometimes you cant avoid it.
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Originally posted by Cmustard
IT TAKES 2 TO HO!:lol
Where does this line of reasoning come from? If I'm trying to duck the inevitable LA-7, Mossie, P-38, Spit, etc. HO shot, and they hit me despite my best efforts to avoid it, I'll get on 200 and call them out. It takes only one to make a HO shot. It takes two to Co-HO.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Where does this line of reasoning come from? If I'm trying to duck the inevitable LA-7, Mossie, P-38, Spit, etc. HO shot, and they hit me despite my best efforts to avoid it, I'll get on 200 and call them out. It takes only one to make a HO shot. It takes two to Co-HO.
Never duck, never go nose down; Easy shot for a ho tard if done late. 1st rule to a good merge is creating separation and then your lead turn timing. Usually I come in crossing the tard, say 30 degrees, with my wing pointing at him, creating a low profile snapshot for him. I'm already nose up, 1/3 the way around, when he takes his sissy shot.
The logic is simply, if my guns are not on his when we cross, then no ho can take place. I RARELY die to a head on shot.
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oCmustard...you are showing me 2 things in this thread. 1) Talentless ability. 2) Lake of self confidence. You need to get with the plot.o
i consider a ho clean as long as there's no collisions involved its a clean kill in my book
oGranted some Ho's are unavoidable as in a 1 on 3 or 4. Sooner or later you'll be forced to turn which will put you in the path of one of the 3 or 4. However, to actually start out in a merge ----> <----- is just plain skilless and dumb. And whats with the collide thing that you seem to think is worse.o :rolleyes:
that being said if ur going head on with the person u cant turn right or hell turn and now hes on ur tail+u cant turn left or hell be on ur tail
oWhat a complete load of rubbish. Mustard me old fruit you showed a bit of promise an ability to improve. Seems you've given up or your being coerced to be the sacrificial lamb. Either way I KNOW you have it in you to improve. Look...I get Ho merged hourly and it's a rare occasion I'm actually shot and more often than not it's me on their skilless dumb arse after the first turn. Yer, SOME will run but so what. You going to be dumb enough to chase them to the weeds or be dragged under 3 or 4 of his friendlies or are you going to keep ya smarts?o
oAnother thing whats with "pick"? This word is used far to frequently in the WRONG context. Some folk use that word as some kind of excuse others use it because they have no clue what a pick really is. Ditch the use of the words "pick" and "gangs". Use and BELIEVE in the words "situation awareness" and "target rich environment"o.
oGet back on coarse lad. I know you can do it.o
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Originally posted by Cmustard
Mommy wouldn't buy me Halo3
:cry
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Where does this line of reasoning come from? If I'm trying to duck the inevitable LA-7, Mossie, P-38, Spit, etc. HO shot, and they hit me despite my best efforts to avoid it, I'll get on 200 and call them out. It takes only one to make a HO shot. It takes two to Co-HO.
It takes two to HO, period. It takes one to make a angles shot on a plane coming toward you. If your oponent is avoiding then it is no longer a HO.
How dare anyone shoot anyone anywhere but the six!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Nimrod45
It takes two to HO, period. It takes one to make a angles shot on a plane coming toward you. If your oponent is avoiding then it is no longer a HO.
How dare anyone shoot anyone anywhere but the six!!!!!!!!!!!
nope you are wrong it takes one to HO. here is an example. yesterday early EST on the pizza map I was looking for fights over a bish base. there was one other rook player there. we didn't pork radar we circled away from the field. three players upped, they were allowed plenty of time to get co alt. I was in a 110G they all upped a combination of La7s and spit16s. they were shot down each time being allowed to up with the same courtesy. by the third fight all three of them lined up and all three HO'd I dodged the first two. but on every encounter they were manuevering to set up a HO. that is why they die so easily even to a pig of a plane like the 110.
I guess I need to improve on dodging the endless conveyor belt of the HO darlings.
however you guys are correct, the HO is here to stay. generally speaking if a player attempts to HO me and I survive that pass on the next pass I'll make a frontal quarter shot where he can't shoot back and laugh at the whine that is sure to follow on 200 where that player will often express indignation at being HO'd.
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I know I'm in for a good fight when I merge with someone and they don't try to HO me.... The ones that try to HO usually find themselves dead after a pass or two. Funny how that works....
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Originally posted by SunBat
I know I'm in for a good fight when I merge with someone and they don't try to HO me.... The ones that try to HO usually find themselves dead after a pass or two. Funny how that works....
So true.
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Originally posted by Cmustard
A ho is a clean shot ather u win or u loose! As long as u colide ho's are perfectly fine no matter what people say about it because fact of matter is that ww2 pilots hoed ,everyone hoed in the war but my main topic from the beginning in typing this Topic was to tell people hoeing really isnt a bad thing!:D
My conclusion from reading this thread:
Mustard should spend more time on school work, and less time in AH.
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Originally posted by Max
So true.
To me, the biggest tell-tale mark of a dweeb is a guy that comes down at you, with E, and he goes for a HO (instead of going high, repositioning and getting a six angle). When I see a guy set up for a HO like that, I giggle, because I know an easy kill is coming my way.
Shamroc
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There are times, usually when fighting multiple cons, that HOing might be considered a good option. The HO was used in ww2, fortunately we are playing a game. Generally speaking, the HO is probably a good tactic for someone who knows nothing better. Overall, it is a poor tactic, in that if you are flying against someone who knows even a little about ACM, you will loose any advantage. Not that HOing is an advantage for anyone, both planes will have a chance to shoot you down. Personally, I would rather work to a position that allows the other guy no shot, and me a shot. Most people who rely on the HO are noobs or people who don't see/can't realize the disadvantages of it...in that if they fight, they don't know how to win, and are unwilling to learn.
That said, feel free to HO me, while your attempting to HO me, I'll be using my time more effectively.
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Originally posted by Motherland
Ramming was a WWII tactic too. Does that validate ramming?
"Well i got news for everyone IT TAKES 2 TO HO!"
Not always. Sometimes you cant avoid it.
Yes in ww2 people did colide INTO BOMBERS im not talking comocaziiiiii
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Originally posted by Cmustard
Yes in ww2 people did colide INTO BOMBERS im not talking comocaziiiiii
Somebodies been watching too much TV. Hoin is a lame, no skill way to get a kill. Its much harder to maneuver into a position for a kill shot WITHOUT putting yourself in the line of the enemies guns. Try it, you may enjoy the challenge!
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Can someone please translate this thread for me? I don't know how to read AOLchat.
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Not arguing for or against it but, I need to once again point out to the "If you try to HO me you'll be dead in 30 seconds" crowd that if the HOer simply continues to extend (runs) after his attempt there's pretty much nothing you can do to stop him.
If he tries to turn after the attempt you are 100% correct.
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Originally posted by Cmustard
i guess so i dont pay that much attention in it.When im fighting most people are loooking for a nice fight they want quick picks,So if they dont get there first pick they run .So by avoding ho when u turn around there 3 k thataway and run n out more.So when im in battle i stick to HO everyone so i dont ever get the disadvantage ,but when ya ho u need to no what ur hoen :)and i consider a ho clean as long as theres no colisions involved its a clean kill in my book:cool:
Wrong Aristotle, there are ways to avoid a ho.
In one of your statements you wrote; “In world war 2 pilots hoed,everybody hoed !!” Prove that everyone ho’d, by all means.
So by your rant you have submitted that you ho all the time and that is how you get kills? Hoing = no skill. Easy kill w/ LA or any other plane w/ a high caliber gun selection on a ho = no skill.
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SPELEN IS OKAY TWO!!1
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Originally posted by Cmustard
Yes in ww2 people did colide INTO BOMBERS im not talking comocaziiiiii
Try, Kamikaze.
And no. It was encouraged as a last result effort of the Russians (called Taran). The I16 had a strengthened wing structure specifically for this purpose.
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Originally posted by Raptor
HOing does not display any level of skill. Yet at the same time Whining about being HOed does not display skill either. I assume everyone is going to HO me so I do not approach enemies at an angle they can HO. If they HO then I can avoid and have an advantage.
Years and years of this and you people still dont get it. When you are engaged in a 3 vs 1 and the 4th guy comes in HO, there is nothing you can do to avoid it. Thinking that a HO is two planes lining up 1K from each other and shooting does not display any skill either
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Originally posted by dedalos
Years and years of this and you people still dont get it. When you are engaged in a 3 vs 1 and the 4th guy comes in HO, there is nothing you can do to avoid it.
Absolutely correct. In a one on many engagement it's often impossible to avoid a HO. In that case I'll always call out the HOer on 200. You'de think that with even marginal skill you could avoid HOing if odds are in your favor.
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I don't advocate HO's in a 1 vs. 1, but there are times nonetheless.
(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4307/spit9vsf6fhopw1.jpg)
(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2166/ratfinklostls3.jpg)
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Originally posted by SunBat
I know I'm in for a good fight when I merge with someone and they don't try to HO me.... The ones that try to HO usually find themselves dead after a pass or two. Funny how that works....
Best definition yet .
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If I see a shot, more than likely I'm gonna take the shot. Strangely enough
I could care less what my target feels about that.
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I usually try to avoid the Ho, but every once once in awhile when I'm outnumbered on D. I'll grit my teeth and charge headlong into the fray with the sole intent of taking as many of them with me before I go, in the most destructive way possible. I thoroughly enjoy taking off against overwhelming odds. Gets the blood flowing.
On a side note, AH2 may be the only game I've played with a legitimate forum post tittled " hoen is ok" seems like we should be playing Pimps online.
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I say if you want to HO, then by all means HO. If you don't want to then don't. Easy as that.
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Originally posted by SunBat
I know I'm in for a good fight when I merge with someone and they don't try to HO me.... The ones that try to HO usually find themselves dead after a pass or two. Funny how that works....
It is perceptions like this that incline me to HO. Ask Jaxxo!
:aok
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I find its usually the cannon armed planes that start out coming right at you. If I break, they dont break in a way to set up a move to counter my turn, they just keep trying for the HO. After a fight has started, many times the two planes end up nose on, and thats fine. Its the guys toolin around in LAs and such that have no other plans for the fight except the initial HO.
Thats lousy.
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There is no money in hoen. Now if you were a pimp...
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This thread just needs it.:noid
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97161&highlight=honch+guide
:D
Bronk
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Not arguing for or against it but, I need to once again point out to the "If you try to HO me you'll be dead in 30 seconds" crowd that if the HOer simply continues to extend (runs) after his attempt there's pretty much nothing you can do to stop him.
If he tries to turn after the attempt you are 100% correct.
I would agree, if in a faster plane, coming in with E, they can HO n go. but, if they turn decide to turn, its not gonna be good for them.
After a HO pass, and they keep going, I guess they are now flying smart and in a realistic way, just like in ww2......ya. (not part of quote)
I don't get mad when I'm HO'd, and in certain situations, I know why I did. I just don't get how it is fun to dive in, line up nose to nose (well I guess that might be fun) shoot like crazy hoping the other guy is a worse shot, and then just run away...rinse repeat. I'd much rather have a fight against someone, win or lose doesn't matter, but you gotta respect someone for mixing it up with you. Seems like now, no one cares in the way they get a kill. A kill is a kill, if it's red it's dead. I don't agree with this philosophy as I think it leads to and supports lame gameplay. Others do, and thats fine, it's their $15, and this is a cartoon airplane game, so it doesn't matter anyway.
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1) If it's red, it's dead.
2) If it's in my gunsights, I am pulling the trigger.
Now, to clarify. I will take the Ho shot if you are in my gunsights. Will I attempt to Ho by lining you up from 4k out and flying straight at you... No. But, if someway shape or form you end up flying right at me, chances are I will pull the trigger
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See, this is the problem with the game. U don't die, so there no loss in ho'in but that u may or maynot die virtually. This promotes the noobs to do nothing more then become a Air Quake, Doom, etc.. Basically spray and pray and move on to the next plane. In AW U couldn't HO, which that game made real virtual pilots, because U actually had to maneuv to someones 6 to kill them. Any shot taken at the 11-1:00 postition would deny ya the kill on a headon plane. This is the main reason why the fun factor in AW was great. It actually required some skill to kill there.
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Originally posted by Nimrod45
It takes two to HO, period. It takes one to make a angles shot on a plane coming toward you. If your oponent is avoiding then it is no longer a HO.
How dare anyone shoot anyone anywhere but the six!!!!!!!!!!!
Wrong. But then again you appear to be "set in your beliefs".
As for HO'ing in General. If I'm outnumbered I'll have NO QUALMS on HO'ing. Ditto is said for the opposite happening. Anytime else besides shooting down bombers, it is skilless.
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Originally posted by SunBat
I know I'm in for a good fight when I merge with someone and they don't try to HO me.... The ones that try to HO usually find themselves dead after a pass or two. Funny how that works....
Amen
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Originally posted by Cmustard
People of aces high i am sick of everyone thinking hoing is a bad thing.In world war 2 pilots hoed,everybody hoed !Now in the content of the game the (ho) isnt bad intell someone colides .Other than that people need to stop whinning because the got shot dwn by a bad thing so called (ho) .Most caes are when someone hos something with cannon and they dont have cannon :cry .HOEN IS OK AS LONG AS (u dont colide);)
Aint you usually in a GV?
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Originally posted by JB73
Can someone please translate this thread for me? I don't know how to read AOLchat.
No chit. I believe this kid needs to work on his schooling, rather than playing a Game.
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Originally posted by Nimrod45
It takes two to HO, period. It takes one to make a angles shot on a plane coming toward you. If your oponent is avoiding then it is no longer a HO.
How dare anyone shoot anyone anywhere but the six!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry but that's just lame justification for a skilless shot.
If you fly at someone with the intent to HO, they try to avoid it and you get them on the deflection it's still a HO. You had every intent to HO the whole time.
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I love ho'rs.
Out of the thousands upon thousands of ho attempts made at me per tour, typically I get hit only a handfull of times.
Pilots that only Head On are super easy kills and I thank them for not taking the time or effort to learn how to fly.
I would rather a hard fought 1 on 1, but blasting lemmings out of the skies in droves is still fairly amusing.
As far as Cmustard...
In world war 2 pilots hoed,everybody hoed !
Kills per Death + 1 0.98
Kills per Sortie 0.72
So if this was WW2, you would have ALMOST shot down an nme, and died. Game over. You are Dead.
So if you want to "pretend" this is WW2, I would ask...
Was it worth it? Was your being Dead worth almost shooting down one plane? If you were a WW2 pilot, would you consider your dying to almost kill someone a "good" or "smart" tactic?
Would you maybe wish, right before you died shooting that nme in a Head On, that your instructors had taught you how to maneuver your plane so you could kill at least one enemy before dying?
Or perhaps, in that instant before death, would you wish you had learned some basic Flight Maneuvers so that you would know how to fight, be able to kill bad guys, and possible make it home alive?
Yes pilots did Head On attacks in WW2. (mosty when they held all the cards, and the risk of them dying was low). No, putting yourself infront of the bad guys guns is not a good thing, and in general was avoided at all costs.
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If I actually want a fight, I will avoid the HO.
But if I want to defend a base from capture, I'll HO
(especially if I know they will whine and cry) :D
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Originally posted by thndregg
I don't advocate HO's in a 1 vs. 1, but there are times nonetheless.
(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4307/spit9vsf6fhopw1.jpg)
(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2166/ratfinklostls3.jpg)
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA
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It does take 2 to turn to a 180 opposed head on mutual shot............. both did it if one didn't then it would not have happened........... ususally one ac is set up for it before another but for it to happen the other has to choose to turn in too............ unless of course he just wasn't actually watchin where he was going.
Its dumb to take it............. cos the odds are seriously higher than 50:50 that you will recieve damage........ even if you are in an ubber multi cannon tank etc etc.
Experten dont like it because some have a mythical code that says you have to manouvre to a bogies 6 before winning the kill. Its fun but it is a myth ...........there is no such requirement and its basically "play my way" peer pressure stuff.
If you fight always trying to make lead turns to bogies nose (using vert or not) to aquire angle then you will end up with loads of HO "opportunities" cos he will turn into you as often as not and some times he will make that turn quicker than you expected.
As often as not you will be given a very acute forward angle for a very short duration snap shot opportunity
If you are always tempted to take the forward angle snap shot some will accuse you of a HO.........of course you just missed an opportunity to go to the next manouvre which properly executed would have made the next guns opportunity an even better angle.
Each time you miss the snap shot your angles get worse ............his get better
Plus you just told your opponent that you will take any snap shot going .................which means he (cos as luck has it he is an experten) is about to try to execute a manouvre that will end up with you overshooting..........
So you better choose the La7/Spit 16/N1K2/P51D cos
a) you can disengage and run away to fight another day....(he didn't shoot you down but make no mistake .......you lost that engagement)
b) after 1 dumb pass you may still have a chance to put stuff right on the 2nd.
c) the experten may treat you like a fool and try the exact over shoot manouvre you have been waiting for him to try:aok
and yes my weapon of choice is the Lavochkin.
I am just a lousy shot.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm sorry but that's just lame justification for a skilless shot.
If you fly at someone with the intent to HO, they try to avoid it and you get them on the deflection it's still a HO. You had every intent to HO the whole time.
OH, your right a skilled pilot will refrain from any shooting solution other than one from the six. Your sense of chivalry and even chances is so amazing, your the best.
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Originally posted by Nimrod45
If your oponent is avoiding then it is no longer a HO.
Brilliant. So, first, I can't make a bee-line past you because then I would be participating in a HO, even if I don't pull the trigger. But, if I tried to avoid the shot, then I'm giving up angles and deserve to get hit.
I guess I should just stay in the tower.
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Originally posted by Cmustard
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Cmustard is a ****. Little twit trolls like him are a dime a dozen in the MA and they are easier kills than they are morons!:aok
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Originally posted by Nimrod45
quote:
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm sorry but that's just lame justification for a skilless shot.
If you fly at someone with the intent to HO, they try to avoid it and you get them on the deflection it's still a HO. You had every intent to HO the whole time.
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OH, your right a skilled pilot will refrain from any shooting solution other than one from the six. Your sense of chivalry and even chances is so amazing, your the best.
Thank you.
Don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of other shots than a pure six. Personally, I prefer full profile snapshots but that's just me.
And don't get me wrong, I will HO in very advanageous situations (say in a 190A-8 against a non-cannoned or lightly cannoned bird if they initiate the HO and I'm mearly accepting or after the fight is already on).
You're contention is that if you go for the HO on the merge and the guy trys to break and you get the deflection it isn't a HO at all. Technically you are correct but it's just, as I said, a lame excuse to justify the HO when you get called out on 200 for it.
"Who? Me? I didn't HO. It was a deflection shot!"
BS!
It takes one to initiate the HO. It takes two to HO and accept. Period.
[EDIT] In a true deflection shot your opponent never gets a guns solution. In HO avoidance your opponent definitely HAD the chance for a guns solution and didn't take it. At that point you simply took the cheap shot which is not a true deflection. It's still a HO.
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dang, cant sleep and suppose to wake up in 2 hours.........
just think for a second.....if HTC was to put a randomizer or small shield in the game to where people who tryed to shoot head on shots only had a 1 in 100 chance of making it work.........look how many "Whining Threads" Aces High BBS would have............
you would prob lose around 66% of the player base because they to lazy, to go learn how to actually gain angles and learn a bit of BFM's and how to apply them........
I think everyone has there opinion about the mattter and were all pretty correct in my opinion. But im strickly talking about people that think hoeing is bad for instence someone will say (ya nice ho) A ho is a clean shot ather u win or u loose!As long as u colide ho's are perfectly fine no matter what people say about it because fact of matter is that ww2 pilots hoed ,everyone hoed in the war but my main topic from the beginning in typing this Topic was to tell people hoeing really isnt a bad thing!
seriously, how did you come to the conclusion that everyone is pretty correct in your opinion?
and what does ww2 pilots actions have to do with people playing Aces High?
and why are you trying to learn history from a media pumped up for ratings history channel instead of digging up factual information about what really happened..........you are either a trolling and doing it quite poorly, or are in junior high school and need to read more and watch TV less..................funny how nowadays they let kids PRINT their reports right from an online encyclopedia and turn it in as the kids own self generated work......talk about "EASY BUTTON"
btw this game does offer training clinics and has some very good pilots to help you truly learn no matter if they are designated trainers or not!
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I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this, but its starting to get old. "If YOUR turning, or HE's turning its NOT a HO".
It could be a hot merge, it could be a forward quarter shot in a maneuver fight.
It could be elvis reborn with a 20mm, but its NOT a HO. Got it?
A HO by Definition is both guys turning nose to nose for an extended period in order to take that first easy shot. If either one turns or maneuvers its NOT a HO.
If neither connects on that first merge, both pull up into an immelman and one shoots the other at the top. ITS NOT A HO, cause both were maneuvering. It can't be a HO until both separate 3 -4 k apart, and turn nose to nose for the shot. Got it?
There is no foul on forward quarter shots in a maneuver fight, its FAIR GAME!
There is certainly no foul for ducking his "attempted" HO shot, reversing and killing him. No matter HOW you did it. That is why the (no ho shot shield) from AW is bogus and is never to be seen here.
Last, in AH everyone dies, Period, even Hitech.
If you just died, YOU MADE A MISTAKE, someplace. Don't blame the other guy. Figure out what you did wrong. So your ego got bruised, happens to ALL of us. Don't take it out on Him, he didn't do anything wrong. Your the one who made the mistake and died for it.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
It can't be a HO until both separate 3 -4 k apart, and turn nose to nose for the shot. Got it?
3-4 k is considerably further than I would use to so classify it......... for me just holding the 180 without counter manouvre is sufficient to define it.
Like the picture above........... it can happen in the vert.
For me the defining moment is when both players on each others 12 can choose not to merge head on yet still choose to do so ...........regardless of distance.
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Ghosth, I wonder if you could elaborate by squaring up these to sentences.
Originally posted by Ghosth
"If YOUR turning, or HE's turning its NOT a HO".
There is certainly no foul for ducking his "attempted" HO shot, reversing and killing him.
Only reason is I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what BaldEgl and others have posted :)
Originally posted by BaldEagl
You're contention is that if you go for the HO on the merge and the guy trys to break and you get the deflection it isn't a HO at all. Technically you are correct but it's just, as I said, a lame excuse to justify the HO when you get called out on 200 for it.
"Who? Me? I didn't HO. It was a deflection shot!"
BS!
It takes one to initiate the HO. It takes two to HO and accept. Period.
In a true deflection shot your opponent never gets a guns solution. In HO avoidance your opponent definitely HAD the chance for a guns solution and didn't take it. At that point you simply took the cheap shot which is not a true deflection. It's still a HO.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Brilliant. So, first, I can't make a bee-line past you because then I would be participating in a HO, even if I don't pull the trigger. But, if I tried to avoid the shot, then I'm giving up angles and deserve to get hit.
I guess I should just stay in the tower.
Yep you probably should.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Thank you.
Don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of other shots than a pure six. Personally, I prefer full profile snapshots but that's just me.
And don't get me wrong, I will HO in very advanageous situations (say in a 190A-8 against a non-cannoned or lightly cannoned bird if they initiate the HO and I'm mearly accepting or after the fight is already on).
You're contention is that if you go for the HO on the merge and the guy trys to break and you get the deflection it isn't a HO at all. Technically you are correct but it's just, as I said, a lame excuse to justify the HO when you get called out on 200 for it.
"Who? Me? I didn't HO. It was a deflection shot!"
BS!
It takes one to initiate the HO. It takes two to HO and accept. Period.
I never once suggested a planned attempt at a HO in my original post Baldy. But beleive it or not in a fight every now and then you and your oponent might end up facing eachother and if I have got a shooting solution with the upper hand I will take it, and I could absolutly care less how the other guy feels about it, I never tune to 200, and have never chatted on 200 so I wouldn't even be aware of being called out. But anyway I am tired of making excuses for my lack of skill. Your amazing.
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Originally posted by Nimrod45
I never once suggested a planned attempt at a HO in my original post Baldy. But beleive it or not in a fight every now and then you and your oponent might end up facing eachother and if I have got a shooting solution with the upper hand I will take it, and I could absolutly care less how the other guy feels about it, I never tune to 200, and have never chatted on 200 so I wouldn't even be aware of being called out. But anyway I am tired of making excuses for my lack of skill. Your amazing.
Nimrod, I have nothing against you here. Don't take it personally but I don't believe the "It takes 2 to HO" line so many throw out there or the "If one turns it's no longer a HO" line.
Also, maybe I misunderstood you as most HO discussions revolve around the initial merge and that's the point that people differ on so much. That's the skilless shot as the HOer has no intention of doing anything other than flying straight at his opponent, firing and hoping that he will survive both the firing pass and the potential collision.
These guys typically have no moves once they have made the initial HO pass. They want kills and instant gratification without taking the time and effort that it requires to learn SA and ACM. As many have said, if they make the mistake of turning after the HO pass against an exprienced pilot they are usually dead within two turns. If they are smart they run.
Those who rely on the HO (initial merge) usually have a K/S under 1 and K/D around 1 which will never improve until they learn that their preferred tactic is the reason they aren't getting any better and then they will have to practically start over from the beginning to learn some ACM.
The other typical HO shooter is a big cannoned BnZer with E. Accepting their HO is suicide but fortunately they are easy to avoid. If they do get the lucky "deflection" kill I have no problem with it as their options to fight are limited. If they miss the HO they will definately extend, often not to return. If they re-set and return then it's just a matter of time until they bleed off E and limit their options even further.
Once the fight is on (which if I'm reading this correctly is where your contention came from) then I have no problem with someone trying to HO or do whatever it takes to try to kill their opponent (unless they are part of a "gang" against a lone con) and I doubt most here do but once the fight is on it's rarely a HO, at that point it usually is a true deflection.
Again, don't take it personally. I have nothing against you.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this, but its starting to get old. "If YOUR turning, or HE's turning its NOT a HO".
I think I know what your saying, but I have a different take on it.
A "HO", in the context that we discuss this flogged horse, and is my take on the subject, is this ...
When 2 opposing planes BOTH have a guns solution on each other ... that is an HO.
It matters not what distance or wether one is turning or both are turning. Once the 2 both have a guns solution ... then there is a possibility of a "HO" occuring.
Anything outside of both having a guns solution, then any shot taken by one or the other, who has a guns solution ... that is called a deflection shot.
If there is enough separation at the merge where I can get a guns solution on you ... I WILL TAKE THE SHOT ... I will lay .50 cals from cockpit to tail if presented and it will not be an HO. Some may say, well that is lame ... I say don't present a guns solution for me.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
When 2 opposing planes BOTH have a guns solution on each other ... that is a HO. [/B]
Exactly.
Now we have to address "Pickers" and "Cherry pickers".:rofl
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Originally posted by SlapShot
When 2 opposing planes BOTH have a guns solution on each other ... that is an HO.
It matters not what distance or wether one is turning or both are turning. Once the 2 both have a guns solution ... then there is a possibility of a "HO" occuring.
So are you saying that if both have a guns solution then one pulls off and gets hit on the deflection it wasn't a HO? Even though the clear intent of the HOer was to HO?
If so then this gives HOers plenty of justification to continue and it probably should be taught as a valid tactic. After all, it's really just a 0 degree (or is that 180 degree?) deflection shot right?
Trainers: Deflection shooting; from 0 to 20 degrees. Thursday nights. Trained by Ghosth. Also, how to justify a HO by arguing deflection.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Last, in AH everyone dies, Period, even Hitech.
If you just died, YOU MADE A MISTAKE, someplace. Don't blame the other guy. Figure out what you did wrong. So your ego got bruised, happens to ALL of us. Don't take it out on Him, he didn't do anything wrong. Your the one who made the mistake and died for it.
That is the bottom line, and I do not think it can be stated in any better terms. Ghost
Of course, HO's were an undeniable part of air combat. But, I'm sure is wasn't the first choice for any but the most suicidal of pilots. I do not claim to be an expert cartoon pilot in fact, ######'s guys kill me routinely. I am, however, fairly certain that the object is to stay out of the way of the other pilot's field of fire as much as possible. To put yourself in a position that lets the red guys' get ANY type of shot on you can't be good. In fact the meager amount of kills I do have are from someone else's failed HO's.
Now take into account that I am a former Army guy who had a very intimate relationship with Mother Earth. Cover and concealment to be exact. If guys could see and fire rounds at you, there was always the chance that you could put some Terra Firma between yourself and the ordinance, meaning the bullets could not get to you. BUT..........
Up "there", there is (almost)nowhere to hide, and no cover (unless you put your wingman between you and the enemy fire). Again, coming from a ground pounder, I would think that in this situation, one would not want to intentionally put one's self ANYWHERE that the enemy fire could reach you. I DO know that there are no foxholes to dive into up there.
So, therefore, CmusTARD, your theory lacks logic, and merit.
and by the way
squeeeeeeeeek! (couldn resist, i hope skuzzy's not watching):noid
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Snippage..........
When 2 opposing planes BOTH have a guns solution on each other ... that is an HO.
It matters not what distance or wether one is turning or both are turning. Once the 2 both have a guns solution ... then there is a possibility of a "HO" occuring.
............................. .end snippage
Snapshot with all due respect sir, I still have a problem with that definition.
You and I both know that good pilots don't HO. The reason we know this is that good pilots setup for a merge, or ACM to get behind and kill the other guy with good flying not a simple Head On Guns on pass.
So by defining a HO your way,it puts a negative implication on any time 2 players both have a shot and one loses. Yet it should not be that way in my opinion. There are a LOT of times in a good fight where both players could have a shot at the same time. Yet NONE of those should carry any stigma, shame, or penalty. Because your both in there giving it everything you have.
Your not Jousting or playing chicken from 4k out, your FIGHTING, manuvering for all your worth. The only time real stigma or shame should be attached is when both pilots go nose to nose with no attempt to do anything else.
At times ANY good pilot is going to extend out 2k, reverse back high into the bogeys following him, right? Yet if you define that as a HO, your telling people that maneuver is wrong. Or other people will say that its wrong, because your turning into a HO situation. So the only way to end the endless HO whining is to first agree to what a "Real" NOT good, HO is. Then teach the community to not use it, correct?
If instead you put a septation in there ie the 3k or greater, then it does become exactly what everyone dislikes about it. In short playing chicken, nose to nose, no maneuvering, no duck, dodge, or attempt to win by ACM, just who wins the guns vs guns battle.
So the only way to change this is to develop a Definition that Excludes all excepted shots, but does NOT exclude what is not accepted.
Now, looking at it again, taking the LONG view, thinking in terms of Community, do you STILL have a problem with that definition? Can you provide a better one that still fits the situation? Because the one you gave does not.
If so I'll give up this crusade and let the whines continue endlessly.
You don't agree with my definition, fine, then Challenge the Trainers to come up with a single accepted definition. And accept it when they do.
Murdr I was not attempting to reply to what BaldEagl had posted.
I'd prefer to get a definition of WHAT a HO is accepted first. Then we can quickly find out if a HO was involved or not. In short, don't untie the Gordian knot, cut it.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
You and I both know that good pilots don't HO. The reason we know this is that good pilots setup for a merge, or ACM to get behind and kill the other guy with good flying not a simple Head On Guns on pass.
That's not entirely true; good pilots will also adapt to whatever circumstances present themselves. If I notice that someone goes out of his way to avoid going HO with me, I can use that to my advantage by predicting where he's going to try to avoid me every time. I can then "cheat" in that direction and give him a face full of lead without much risk to myself.
On the other hand, if I know the other guy is game for a HO, I'm more likely to adjust my tactics accordingly and stick with another option that is less risky.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm more likely to adjust my tactics accordingly and stick with another option that is less risky.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Like casting more powerful spells on him, fairieboy?
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Where does this line of reasoning come from? If I'm trying to duck the inevitable LA-7, Mossie, P-38, Spit, etc. HO shot, and they hit me despite my best efforts to avoid it, I'll get on 200 and call them out. It takes only one to make a HO shot. It takes two to Co-HO.
The key words in your post Stoney were "Line of reasoning" a concept alien to some of the brethern that HO.
I will turn toward someone that is lining me up so that I make a smaller target and to complicate their gunnery... What gets me is that certain players will deliberately collide despite my best efforts to avoid such a collision... but what can you do? Whine on 200? I just re up and get back into the fight.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Snippage..........
When 2 opposing planes BOTH have a guns solution on each other ... that is an HO.
It matters not what distance or wether one is turning or both are turning. Once the 2 both have a guns solution ... then there is a possibility of a "HO" occuring.
............................. .end snippage
Snapshot with all due respect sir, I still have a problem with that definition.
You and I both know that good pilots don't HO. The reason we know this is that good pilots setup for a merge, or ACM to get behind and kill the other guy with good flying not a simple Head On Guns on pass.
So by defining a HO your way,it puts a negative implication on any time 2 players both have a shot and one loses. Yet it should not be that way in my opinion. There are a LOT of times in a good fight where both players could have a shot at the same time. Yet NONE of those should carry any stigma, shame, or penalty. Because your both in there giving it everything you have.
Ghosth my friend ...
Notice I also said ... "Once the 2 both have a guns solution ... then there is a possibility of a "HO" occuring."
Maybe I should have also clarified that there is no HO unles shots are fired.
You are correct that you and I could both have a guns solution ... and not fire ... hence no HO ... but without both of us having a guns solutions, there is no possiblity at all of an HO occuring.
I would also agree with your idea of circumstance coming into play. If you and I were knife fighting and your were on the edge of maybe stalling ... and an HO presented itself ... and you took it ... I would have no problem with it ... and if the circumstances were reversed, I don't think that you would have a problem with it either ... but not everyone sees it that way.
As to what Lev said ... I never ever get HOed in a 1 v 1 situation ... I never ever try to present a guns solution to my opponent ... which naturally puts me out of a guns solution so an HO can't happen ... I am working on the lead turn ... BUT if the opponents merge is so bad that they present a guns solution for me prior to the merge ... I will try to fill you full of lead from stem to stern and not blink.
There is an exception to that. If I know who is my opponent, and they have the right attitude, I will go guns cold on the first merge. This is something that Eagler and I do all the time. We find each other, we know it is each other prior to the merge ... we merge guns cold ... and then we go at it like two tom cats.
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and then we go at it like two tom cats. [/B]
Were you trying to say "Hellokitties" ? :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by dedalos
Were you trying to say "Hellokitties" ? :rofl :rofl :rofl
Don't you have some olives to cure or something ... :furious
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Don't you have some olives to cure or something ... :furious
I think I'll mod my self on this one :rofl
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I think if you want to define a Head On then you have to put aside whether one player or another thinks its OK or not to do this or that.
IMO it is
Two ac merging with mutually sustained guns resolutions.
Whether one, both or none fire or not is actually immaterial. If one takes a head on shot then its easier to define his intent but trying to produce a definition by trying to discern a pilits intent is a pretty vague method.
The actuality is
1) they are both in gun range of each other
2) they both have guns pointing at each other
3) they both sustain that course to maintain the above (no matter how fleetingly)
4)they are both doing it at the same time.
I wonder at pilits who allow their opponent to gain any guns resolution on the basis that their opponent should not take it.
Offering or accepting the Head On seems foolish enough.
Offering it or accepting it and then not firing at all seems the height of stupidity.
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Let me put it this way then.
In a duel, both players seperate, then merge at an agreed on altititude.
The FIRST merge, where both players go nose to nose at each other is almost always forbidden to shoot, A Cold Merge. Why? Because this is the dreaded HO? Because the rules eliminate the HO out of the duel. So that winning is not about a single lucky cannon round in the cockpit or playing chicken?
Yet after that, many many times both players may have guns solutions.
Yet the first player to shoot down the other wins. No complaints, no whines, as long as the rules were followed. In short, no HO, no stigma, no shame, better man won that round, try it again.
Doesn't that define WHY you need that distance in there to define a HO?
Dueling rules don't say "anytime both guys have guns solution you can't shoot" far from it.
So give it a try for a week. 1 on 1 give the other guy the first cold merge, setup for ACM & merge tactics instead. After that anything goes, no rules, best man lives.
And of course anytime your in a 1 vs many environment, ALL RULES ARE OFF.
You do whatever you can to survive for as LONG as you can, period.
You don't like it fine, get that horde off my tail and we'll discuss it. :)
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Originally posted by Cmustard
People of aces high i am sick of everyone thinking hoing is a bad thing.In world war 2 pilots hoed,everybody hoed !Now in the content of the game the (ho) isnt bad intell someone colides .Other than that people need to stop whinning because the got shot dwn by a bad thing so called (ho) .Most caes are when someone hos something with cannon and they dont have cannon :cry .HOEN IS OK AS LONG AS (u dont colide);)
LOL Cmustard called me a HO TARD once;) I have come to the conclusion that most everyone HOES, but usually only the LOSEER complains.
{.200 oh drattt i accidently Hoed someone in my niki, i should auger now!!!}
The day we see this statement aces high will get sucked into a gravitation vortex due to everyones brains blowing up at once.
Case in point, it takes 2 people to HO, I turn out of all my head ons, and i havent been Hoed in 3 months, yes ladies and gentlman turning out of it or rolling over will work 95% of the time.
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I would like to stress a point though. There are times that a HO is called for and a necessity for survival. I would never get mad at the niki that is outnumberd, turning his heart out and happend to end up in my face filling me full of 20s. However the niki that comes in 2k above me, dives in and hoes me on the first shot howerver, still really wouldnt make me to mad, but it goes to show he lacks the confidence to try anything else.
If all u want to do is fly around and go head on in your LA Cmustard go right ahead. I have only seen one pilot fly a LA effectivly and that is 1sads and he does use the HO every now and then, but he does not use it until he is at a disadvantage.
I have encountered u many times in the MA, and each time you make yourself a easy kill by going for the HO shot, it will put u at a disadvantage early in the fight.
My advice is to start learning your planes, and how to engage each variation of planes. Use your strenghts, their weaknesses.
Im a 50 cal guy myself so Hoing isnt really a option very often for me, but u use 20s so by all means brother use them if u need to, but just dont make it your specialty. I promise u will never see a Kill to death of 1.0 and u will spend more time flying to the fight instead of actaully being in it if u dont start learning your planes, and the manuvers to gain the edge and stay alive.
A LA is a EASY plane to fly wrong, but a HARD plane to fly right, dont use the HO as your first option, try to outmanuver your enemy, the more time u spend doing that u will see what u did wrong and what he did to get behind u and eventually u will learn to counter, reverse, and decimate your opponents.
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Sometimes a HO is necessary just to piss people off. I've done it, and had it done to me.
Other times I use the HO to save fellow squaddies/country mates.
It sucks when it happens to you, but it's so scandalous when you get a HO kill. :D
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Originally posted by TwentyFo
Sometimes a HO is necessary just to piss people off. I've done it, and had it done to me.
Probably the only valid reason to HO :rofl
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Let me put it this way then.
In a duel, both players seperate, then merge at an agreed on altititude.
The FIRST merge, where both players go nose to nose at each other is almost always forbidden to shoot, A Cold Merge. Why? Because this is the dreaded HO? Because the rules eliminate the HO out of the duel. So that winning is not about a single lucky cannon round in the cockpit or playing chicken?
Yet after that, many many times both players may have guns solutions.
Yet the first player to shoot down the other wins. No complaints, no whines, as long as the rules were followed. In short, no HO, no stigma, no shame, better man won that round, try it again.
Doesn't that define WHY you need that distance in there to define a HO?
Dueling rules don't say "anytime both guys have guns solution you can't shoot" far from it.
So give it a try for a week. 1 on 1 give the other guy the first cold merge, setup for ACM & merge tactics instead. After that anything goes, no rules, best man lives.
And of course anytime your in a 1 vs many environment, ALL RULES ARE OFF.
You do whatever you can to survive for as LONG as you can, period.
You don't like it fine, get that horde off my tail and we'll discuss it. :)
Well said although I still believe to HO is lame if the HOer is on the over-numbered side of an engagement.
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No argument with that at ALL Baldeagl. I have always felt like more than 2 on a con was a waste of time and energy. I wish more players would ask before jumping in on a 1 on 1.
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Originally posted by WaRLoCkL
LOL Cmustard called me a HO TARD once;) I have come to the conclusion that most everyone HOES, but usually only the LOSEER complains.
{.200 oh drattt i accidently Hoed someone in my niki, i should auger now!!!}
The day we see this statement aces high will get sucked into a gravitation vortex due to everyones brains blowing up at once.
Case in point, it takes 2 people to HO, I turn out of all my head ons, and i havent been Hoed in 3 months, yes ladies and gentlman turning out of it or rolling over will work 95% of the time.
Only time i get mad at a ho if U COLIDE! which is very easy to do dont get me wrong i do it myself daily :aok
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Originally posted by TwentyFo
Sometimes a HO is necessary just to piss people off. I've done it, and had it done to me.
Other times I use the HO to save fellow squaddies/country mates.
It sucks when it happens to you, but it's so scandalous when you get a HO kill. :D
I just like to ho all the time if i dont and try to be a fare 1 on 1 fighter what happends? HAHAHAHA i get jumped by 4 of his buddies,when it comes to MA u ho everyone know on is out for a nice fight if u want a fight go to duelingarena!
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Originally posted by Cmustard
I just like to ho all the time if i dont and try to be a fare 1 on 1 fighter what happends? HAHAHAHA i get jumped by 4 of his buddies,when it comes to MA u ho everyone know on is out for a nice fight if u want a fight go to duelingarena!
What the *#@ did he just say? Maybe mommy & daddy need to cut off the subscription so you can study more at school.
But hey, at least you are honest. A self-proclaimed HO- (cmus)TARD is more palatable than one who is in denial. News flash! This is not "HALO", save that crap for the X-Box.
(uh-oh!:noid I feel it coming on again!)
SQUEEEEEEEEEK!
Although, I must confess, it seems to be getting better. Did one of em finally drop? Don't worry, maybe the other one will drop by the end of the school year.
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Originally posted by VonMessa
What the *#@ did he just say? Maybe mommy & daddy need to cut off the subscription so you can study more at school.
But hey, at least you are honest. A self-proclaimed HO- (cmus)TARD is more palatable than one who is in denial. News flash! This is not "HALO", save that crap for the X-Box.
(uh-oh!:noid I feel it coming on again!)
SQUEEEEEEEEEK!
Although, I must confess, it seems to be getting better. Did one of em finally drop? Don't worry, maybe the other one will drop by the end of the school year.
TOOOOO Funny VonMessa!!! See the thread "Squeakers of all time"... He's been nominated and seconded!
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Originally posted by Cmustard
I just like to ho all the time if i dont and try to be a fare 1 on 1 fighter what happends? HAHAHAHA i get jumped by 4 of his buddies,when it comes to MA u ho everyone no one is out for a nice fight if u want a fight go to dueling arena!
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Originally posted by Cmustard
if u want a fight go to duelingarena!
Any one wondering whats wrong with the game? :rofl