Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AquaShrimp on October 08, 2007, 08:30:26 AM
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Ethanol from cellulose http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-017.html
Right now, ethanol (E85, and that Brazillian stuff) is produced only from the starch of plants, which is a relatively low percentage of the entire plant. Starch is just a long chain of sugars. Well cellulose is actually a long chain of sugars, glucose to be exact. However, its the beta version of glucose (we eat the alpha version). But cellulose can be broken apart into individual sugars through a number of ways, utilizing acid or living organisms.
Anyways, I think this is the solution to our fuel problems. Right now the production efficiencies are pretty low, but with genetic engineering of microbes, and new technologies in acid reclamation, 95% conversion efficiencies are predicted.
Basically this is grass into gas.
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Not viable until the bacteria for the conversion process gets much, much cheaper :(
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We had a nice presentation at a rally from a fuel producer that also provides bio diesel in Wichita. It got me interested to do a bit of research about availability of bio-diesel for commercial trucks or just at truck stops. I found exactly 2 Flying J truck stops that have it and they are both in Illinois. Loves doesn't list it at all. That covers the 2 largest truck stop chains for over the road trucks.
So far the availability of alcohol isn't much better other than as an additive. That includes ethanol from corn. So far as I can tell no one is mass producing the stuff from the grass source. I hear about how wonderful it's supposed to be but if it's not being produced in quantity, it's all vaporware. Maybe voss is behind it.
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It seems like a great way to drive up food prices.
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They are supposed to be opening up a saw-grass 'ethanol' plant in SC in 2010.
You've got to remember, the big money is just getting thrown at these technologies. And due to the sheer size and infrastructure needed to for a processing plant, it will take 4 years to find a sutiable location with proper workforce and negotiate with that locality to get generous tax incentitves and whatnot to build. The you have to build, then you have to hire people and train them. These things aren't turnkey operations. But now that big gov't money is being thrown around, expect to see ethanol plants popping up like weeds.
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does this mean the price of grass is going to go up?
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There are many small tricks being used today, i.e. in Europe for self-manufactured fuel.
One is agricultural rapeseeed oil. On good land you may have up to 1200 litres pr ha, and it can be processed on the farm and used straight for diesel engines. The sideproduct is actually the mainproduct, - rapeseed for cattle food.
Oddly enough, at least in Germany AFAIK, it has now been taxed, so it does not show up on the common market. However it is being used within agriculture.
AFAIK rapeseed oil is a much more efficient than i.e. growing corn to make methanol/ethanol. Not sure why it is not more applied, but I have read that there are big areas in the mid-west of the USA for instance where it will not grow any more due to herbicide issues. (what cleans corn will kille food-rape).
Not sure there though, so take it with a grain of salt. Definately many other factors involved.
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Originally posted by Angus
There are many small tricks being used today, i.e. in Europe for self-manufactured fuel.
One is agricultural rapeseeed oil. On good land you may have up to 1200 litres pr ha, and it can be processed on the farm and used straight for diesel engines. The sideproduct is actually the mainproduct, - rapeseed for cattle food.
Oddly enough, at least in Germany AFAIK, it has now been taxed, so it does not show up on the common market. However it is being used within agriculture.
AFAIK rapeseed oil is a much more efficient than i.e. growing corn to make methanol/ethanol. Not sure why it is not more applied, but I have read that there are big areas in the mid-west of the USA for instance where it will not grow any more due to herbicide issues. (what cleans corn will kille food-rape).
Not sure there though, so take it with a grain of salt. Definately many other factors involved.
Very true. It's not utilized in the US because diesel marketshare is so low. This is because their laws and taxes favor gasoline over diesel.
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If you are a BOATER be careful about this crap fuel. It's wrecking boat fuel tanks and engines left and right.
“Ethanol is a fabulous solvent,” says Schultz. “I used it to clean tree sap off my car.” It also dissolves accumulated deposits in the fuel-supply system, and those could end up in a fuel filter. Also, Schultz points out, gasoline and ethanol are an unhappy marriage. They simply don't mix together. But ethanol loves water and willingly sucks up moisture. This isn't a big problem in the sealed fuel system of a modern car, but most boats have an open-vented fuel tank that breathes as the ambient temperature rises and falls-especially during the cool evenings and warmer days of spring and fall-and introduces humid air to the fuel tank. This can create the formation of strong organic acids as water combines with ethanol and other elements in the fuel, forming sludge and corrosive compounds.
http://www.boatingmag.com/article.asp?article_id=691§ion_id=3
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Find any thread about biofuels and you'll find a post from me about using switchgrass and a post from Lazs calling me an idiot. Has something changed?
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Originally posted by rpm
Find any thread about biofuels and you'll find a post from me about using switchgrass and a post from Lazs calling me an idiot. Has something changed?
Yes, you're an older idiot than before.
:D
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That is a 2 way street amigo.;)
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Seriously, tho. Bush called for this 2 years ago in his SOTU. Too bad Archer/Daniels/Midland doesn't turn a tidy profit off switchgrass.
Anybody that does'nt believe biofuels are feasable should look at Brazil.
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Originally posted by rpm
Seriously, tho. Bush called for this 2 years ago in his SOTU. Too bad Archer/Daniels/Midland doesn't turn a tidy profit off switchgrass.
Anybody that does'nt believe biofuels are feasable should look at Brazil.
If I remember correctly, Switch blade grass puts out 8x the fuel that is needed to make it. Sugar cane(which is what Brazil is useing) is about 6x effective. And corn is 2x. It's very possible to start makeing large amounts of fuel from these sources, people just need to invest a little money on developing cheaper ways of doing it.
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Originally posted by AirFlyer
If I remember correctly, Switch blade grass puts out 8x the fuel that is needed to make it. Sugar cane(which is what Brazil is useing) is about 6x effective. And corn is 2x. It's very possible to start makeing large amounts of fuel from these sources, people just need to invest a little money on developing cheaper ways of doing it.
Whatever it takes to get off of ME oil and make their Kings "3rd world status" again, I'm all for it! :aok
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IIRC we import about 30% of our oil from OPEC. The majority comes from Canada. Think we can grow enough to supply 30%? I do.
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Originally posted by rpm
IIRC we import about 30% of our oil from OPEC. The majority comes from Canada. Think we can grow enough to supply 30%? I do.
using just one of these best thing since sliced bread alternatives? maybe not...
but possible using any number of them where they can be had fairly cheaply?
no problem.
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We already have huge amounts of land sitting idle due to crop allotments. Put those allotments into production and you have saved money 2 fold.
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AFAIK, at one point, the EU substitised 10% of used agricultural land for being NOT used. That area alone would have been more then enough to supply their energy need for the entire agriculure, - which BTW is more than just food production.
A lot of a renewable energy being wasted.
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Originally posted by rpm
IIRC we import about 30% of our oil from OPEC. The majority comes from Canada. Think we can grow enough to supply 30%? I do.
I was about to call "B.S." on your statement until I looked it up:
The Persian Gulf states account for about 22% of all U.S. oil imports. Since 2001, Persian Gulf states have actually increased production by 8% in order to try to meet rising global demand. Canada and Mexico are actually America’s top two oil suppliers; both export more oil to the U.S. than does Saudi Arabia.
So, I keep hearing that we're in Iraq because of oil...yet we have plenty coming in from Canada and Mexico...hmmm....
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Originally posted by john9001
does this mean the price of grass is going to go up?
Yes, particularly "BC Bud" according to a news item I saw yesterday....but it is more to do with exchange rates than ethanol.
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Originally posted by Curval
Yes, particularly "BC Bud" according to a news item I saw yesterday....but it is more to do with exchange rates than ethanol.
:rofl :aok
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"So, I keep hearing that we're in Iraq because of oil...yet we have plenty coming in from Canada and Mexico...hmmm...."
Isn't the USA buing a lot from S-America?
Chavez????
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Whatever the ultimate process or source. This seems to be the fuel of the future. Naturally not everyone is happy with this. The anti car, anti capitalist brigade absolutely do not want us all driving around in private cars right into the future. So they have started whinging already.
Having said that, in Indonesia they have started large scale slash and burn of the rainforests, so that biofuel crops can be planted. That can't be good. You can hardly blame then though. We can't tell them to remain poor just so we can feel good about primeval forests we will never visit.
Of course all this is driven by the global warming hysteria. But at least there might be one positive outcome. Reducing our dependance on oil is no bad thing.
But the diesel engine really needs a bit more refinement.
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I believe something like 3 times the ethanol can be produced from industrial hemp than from corn or soy. In addition to it not being much of a food crop and it's lack of THC, the fibers from industrial hemp can be used for paper, clothing, etc.
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/science-turns-sun-surf-into-green-energy/2007/03/20/1174153066798.html
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If there is any validity to that article, that new technology will make cellulose ethanol look like steam engine technology.
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If Cellulose is viable...then my Ex-Wifes Butt will power my SUV for a WHILE.....BE a good way to get rid of that wench to. Burn her in the tank.:lol :aok
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Industrial hemp, yes.
I had been pondering on that one. Even where I live in rather cool climate, Flax (Linen) will give a sideproduct to fiber growing (4-6 tonnes of fiber pr ha.), which is linseed, some 700 kg's. That could be close to a barrel of linseed oil, after you have subtracted the seed you need for re-planting.
And our crops are nothing compared to what you can get with the crops in somewhat warmer areas.
And the hemp is used for textiles, like flax. It's more crude though, - where is the main use?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I was about to call "B.S." on your statement until I looked it up:
So, I keep hearing that we're in Iraq because of oil...yet we have plenty coming in from Canada and Mexico...hmmm....
Be very careful Rip. You are dangerously close to seeing things from my POV.
We can do this and do it very easily.
Using switchgrass as a primary fuel, putting all idle allotment land and government property into production, we could easily produce 30% of our consumption.
The problem is there is no profit for anyone to milk. A/D/M (Archer/Daniels/Midland) has the corn market sewn up and is using the flyover states to stop any diversion of funds for manufacturing switchgrass based fuels. This is Corn Country!
Everyone loves to bash Exxon/Mobil for profit gouging, but nobody is paying attention to the harm A/D/M is doing to our nation. A/D/M is concerned about making a profit for it's executives and shareholders. It has Millions invested in corn production and wants to see a return on it's investment. It could care less about you and I.
Why on earth wouldn't we we grow what we absolutely know would work and work well? Because A/D/M is contributing to the campaigns of corn state politicians. Anyone that runs against them is labeled "anti-farm" and "anti-american", a death sentence in mid-america.
Meanwhile, Unleaded is $2.99 a gallon and Exxon/Mobil turns another record profit while the prairie wind blows across an empty plain.
Farmers want to work. The nation needs the product. Where is the downside?
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Downside = fuel price.
The profit margin in Europe is much better due to their taxed and expensive fuel, however they have damaged the biofuel growth by taxing theirs.
The EU is also cutting down on substities, which will make manufacture pr. ha more expensive.
Always boils down to the money.....
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In my little podunk county alone there are over 20,000 acres of government land dedicated to growing grass (not switchgrass). That does not include all the private land that is sitting idle due to USDA crop allotments or other idle lands.
You want to stop big government and the nanny-state? Eliminate the crop allotments and open the land to switchgrass production. You put people to work, you make a needed product, you make America stronger.
Let switchgrass become a ready commodity with every Mom and Pop farmer turning out all they can, selling it at the local market. It doesn't take much to grow grass. All you need is water, sun and soil.
By God, that sounds like America to me. But, I am an amerihating liberal.
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Let switchgrass become a ready commodity with every Mom and Pop farmer turning out all they can, selling it at the local market. It doesn't take much to grow grass. All you need is water, sun and soil.
Corn is being used to make ethanol because the government are subsidising it, and because they are mandating fuel blends that require ethanol.
Don't make the mistake of thinking it's cheaper than oil.
Some countries in the topics can grow crops like sugar cane that can just about compete with oil without subsidies, although even then they need lots of very cheap labour to do it. At the moment there's nothing you can grow in the US that will compete with gasoline on price. If there were, then they wouldn't be asking for government subsidies before they started producing ethanol, they'd be doing it and making money.
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Gasoline and Oil are cheap in the USA compared to i.e. Europe.
Rapeseed oil for own use in European agriculture is already yealding nicely pro sq if calculated into the purchasing price of fuels needed on the spot.
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RPM is right, this country has millions of acres in Conservation Reserve Programs taking erodeable land OUT of production.
For switchgrass production the land does not ever need to be tilled. So no erosion takes place, the grass roots are there doing there job.
All that land can produce 8 to 12 Tons per acre of switchgrass. Cut it, stack it, use it when you need it. Each county could have a small production plant instead of a few HUGE ones. Each county gets a few more jobs, a few more tax dollars, and less chance of huge goverment pork.
Yes its still experimental, yes they are still working on producing the right enzymes and yeasts to change the cellulose to sugar to alcohol. However it IS possible, and feasable, and it costs us NOTHING.
Its a renewable resource that we can harvest every year. Unlike oil, that once its gone its gone for GOOD!
Its high time this country took control back from the huge multinational corps and put it BACK in the hands of "we the people".
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How do you define switchgrass?
And 12 tons per acre, is quite much. Is that in dry matter, standardized (85%) or crude?
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I see several posts extolling the virtue about switchgrass and how it is the right solution for the problem. Another says that farmers are holding us back because they are not producing the stuff and leaving land fallow.
My question is this. When does supply start to feed demand? Anyone?
It feeds the demand when there IS a demand. To date I have not heard one of the proponents of switchgrass list the number of plants producing a viable fuel with it. Until there is a means of actually using it, there is no demand and farmers will not use arable land for that purpose nor should they.
Using corn, a food and feed product, for alcohol has proven the supply and demand truth. You build a plant to produce alcohol and start a larger market segment for it and the farmers are perfectly happy to supply corn for the now higher price. Problem is that it also tends to drive the price of any and all products related to corn, and they are legion, far higher than they were previously. Everyone now pays even more than they did before for more products due to the the shortage of supply and the market response to sell to the highest bidder. If fields used for other food items are moved to switchgrass, what other food items will be shorted in order to try and produce what is now supplied by petroleum?
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The demand for biofuel will also raise land price. It is already beginning in Europe.
However, there is a buffer of land that is not being used, land in rotation, and land that even gets substitized for not being used.
So, no really bad news.
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Switchgrass is on the menu; progress continues.
These companies have all applied for US government loans to start these plants. I think this is a good investment for the research alone. If it pans out... the world will change.
Alico, Inc., La Belle, FL Florida is the proposed location for a project that plans a first-of-a-kind commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plant that would use multiple feedstocks and produce multiple products.
Blue Fire Ethanol, Inc., Irvine, CA California is the proposed location for a project that would build a commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plant using an array of low-cost feedstocks.
Choren USA, a unit of Choren Industries, GmbH, Freiberg, Germany The Southeastern U.S. is the proposed location for a project that would construct an industrial-scale biomass gasification facility for clean synthetic diesel fuels.
Endicott Biofuels, Houston, TX Virginia is the proposed location for construction of a second-generation biodiesel .0 and bio-derived products plant that would feature a high level of feedstock flexibility allowing for the production of a broad range of biodiesel fuels.
Iogen Biorefinery Partners, LLC, Arlington, VA Iogen plans to build a biorefinery in Idaho to produce ethanol from a wide range of cellulosic feedstocks and other byproducts of value to several industries.
POET Biorefining, Sioux Falls, SD POET is building a cellulosic ethanol plant in Emmetsburg, IA, that can accommodate multiple feedstocks in the production of ethanol and higher value byproducts.
Jatropha is probably even better than switchgrass and India is already producing some biodiesel from it.
There are alternatives worth pursuing. Maybe the US government is finally ready to do so.
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What's jatropha you say?
(http://www.jatrophabiodiesel.org/images/bio-disel.jpg)
Jatropha stacks up nicely compared with other feedstocks, as soybeans and rapeseed have a relatively low oil yield compared with Jatropha — 375 kilograms per hectare for soybeans in the United States (280 gallons per acre) and 1,000 kilograms per hectare of rapeseed in Europe (740 gallons per acre) to 3,000 kilograms per hectare of Jatropha (2,226 gallons per acre) in India. Good planning, quality planting material, standardized agronomy practices and good crop management could increase yields
Jatropha grows just about anywhere, even deserts. Doesn't take much moisture, doesn't need great soils.
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There is a type of algae that can produce 100,000 (one hundred thousand) gallons of oil per acre. A 100 million dollar research facility is being built in Texas to test it.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
There is a type of algae that can produce 100,000 (one hundred thousand) gallons of oil per acre. A 100 million dollar research facility is being built in Texas to test it.
Link?
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I read it in "The Houston Chronicle". The October 8, 2007 edition.
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http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5195599.html
There it is.
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Originally posted by Toad
What's jatropha you say?
(http://www.jatrophabiodiesel.org/images/bio-disel.jpg)
Jatropha grows just about anywhere, even deserts. Doesn't take much moisture, doesn't need great soils.
Not sure of the other crops, but the rapeseed diesel is almost an exess product (with 2 x the oil output in tonnage to become high quality cattlefeed) as well as the processing being really simple.
Process as well as growing will weight a lot, and many of the paper folks that play with those numbers have no clue of agriculture....
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Angus, do a little reading on jatropha. Where it grows, how it grows, the yield, other useful products it provides, etc., etc.
I think you will be suprised.
One of the major benefits is that it grows in land that is essentially worthless for food crops.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5195599.html
There it is.
Very interesting, they do admit to some hurdles that need to be crossed, but it does sound promising.
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Originally posted by Toad
Angus, do a little reading on jatropha. Where it grows, how it grows, the yield, other useful products it provides, etc., etc.
I think you will be suprised.
One of the major benefits is that it grows in land that is essentially worthless for food crops.
Will do. Always interested in growing things, especially vegetation that for instance has not been tried around where I live.
Doing a lot of clover now, and was the first one in the country to bring oats good enough to rank as absolutelly ripe.
Climate is rather cool and merciless....
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Climatically, Jatropha curcas Castor is found in the tropics and subtropics and likes heat, although it does well even in lower temperatures and can withstand a light frost.
That leaves out most of the USA, and points north. Even the Northern parts of Florida can get more than a "light" frost.
Has a lot of potential for the Gulf Coast perhaps, and of course points south.
Certainly not going to help Iceland.
Although if I was in Australia I'd be interested.
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:cry
We can't even grow rapeseed. Not corn, and not wheat.
Barley yes, Potatoes yes. Some massive beach-grass that is now used for growing gives insane dry-matter yeald though.
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalaris_arundinacea
Just wonder if it's useable.
(I've both cut and baled that stuff. Has the highest crops I have seen here)
Anyway, Iceland has power enough for years to come from hydro plants and geothermal energy. Untill the glaciers are gone, - no glacial rivers en mass but more of a trinkle. But we have some 100 years ahead which should be okay.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Climatically, Jatropha curcas Castor is found in the tropics and subtropics and likes heat, although it does well even in lower temperatures and can withstand a light frost.
They've already started an experiment with it in Florida and it's possible that Arizona and New Mexico might be able to support it as well. Those two places have a lot of land that isn't doing much else.
It's just one more option that needs to be explored. Even if it doesn't work in the US, if it works well near the equator it will help the world situation with respect to petroleum.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5195599.html
There it is.
The article is interesting. One point I found telling about using other forms of biomass for fuel was this.
"But the biggest benefit: Algae farms can be built virtually anywhere — a point Vertigro hoped to illustrate by locating in West Texas.
To meet U.S. gasoline and diesel demands with biofuels from seed crops, all arable farmland in the nation would have to be planted three times over, said Craig Harting, Global Green's chief operating officer.
"With algae, we can do it with a fraction of 1 percent, and we don't even need arable land," he said."
While I think he may be optimistic about the use of algae, I agree with his estimate of other biomass cultivation requirements. I am curious how he would plan on getting around any EPA objections to putting algae farms in open areas.
Like any other intrusive use of terrain in this country I think the EPA will start requiring an environmental impact analysis before mega acres of land are turned over to commercial oil / alcohol operationsuising biomass.
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The technology still has a ways to go for cellulosic ethanol and algae biodiesel.
Professor Lee Lynd at Mascoma is doing some interesting stuff on cellulosic ethanol.
Still won't come close to replacing petroleum, though the algae biodisel is especially promising from a potential yield standpoint.
Charon
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But still, the ball is rolling. Biofuels are feasable. We have just hit the tip of the iceberg from a research standpoint. Relying on fossil fuel alone is a losing strategy. Today switchgrass, tomorrow algaegas.
At least it's renewable.
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But still, the ball is rolling. Biofuels are feasable. We have just hit the tip of the iceberg from a research standpoint. Relying on fossil fuel alone is a losing strategy. Today switchgrass, tomorrow algaegas.
The ball is rolling and there are some promising future options. But, run the numbers. Look at total liquid fuel consumption (not just motor fuels) and projections from EIA and IEA reports. We will not get a notable replacement of total petroleum usage. Partial (and partial can be important). Also, the cellulosic plants that are coming online in the next couple of years are experimental units that do not use the projected breakthrough technologies. Basically trial plants with the old, expensive technology.
Even more promising are coal to liquid and gas conversion technologies and oil sands as long as crude stays above $40 bbl. We may be able to notably reduce our dependence on Middle Eastern oil but not oil itself. And, the most important thing we could do is all drive one of those shoebox sized "Smart Cars" -- if we wanted to in the US (or even Europe, for that matter without the extreme taxes that make gasoline so expensive).
Charon
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yep... supply and demand... free market...demand fuels (so to speak) new discoveries of new fuels and new exploration of old fuels..
we are a long way from the end of the world.
lazs