Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: RATTFINK on October 08, 2007, 02:13:06 PM
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I saw this yesterday at the Wings Over Houston Air Show
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/GlacierGirl.jpg)
It was my first time to see a P-38 up close. Pretty cool.
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Sweet!
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Gotta love the 80th Headhunter P38 out there now too :)
Based about 3 hours away from me as well. Gonna have to go visit :aok
(http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/big/ready/RuffStuff_20070929_8482.jpg)
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Painted 38s are that much prettier. :aok
Bronk
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Gotta love the 80th Headhunter P38 out there now too :)
Based about 3 hours away from me as well. Gonna have to go visit :aok
Just so long as they don't let you get behind the stick. :D
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I saw those two at the Mustangs and Legends show in OH last weekend. GG's story is pretty incredible.
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Wasnt Glacier Girl the P38 they dug up 100ft below an ice glacier in Greenland or something...
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Originally posted by Sharrk
Wasnt Glacier Girl the P38 they dug up 100ft below an ice glacier in Greenland or something...
yes - they made a website:
http://www.thelostsquadron.com/
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The sad thing is that Mr. Roy's family sold her after he died, so that she could make the Bolero mission that Mr. Roy always wanted her to finish, but she lost an engine before they got a good start, so both engines were replaced and they turned around. I'm betting that they don't try it again. So now she's gone from her home where she was brought back to life, and the museum is gone as well, not to mention the yearly air show they put on. And it's likely she'll never complete the mission.
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Noticed how big of a plane they are?
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Word is old Pat (Pat Epps) is scheming to go out to Greenland again and get another one. Pat is a friend of the family. He recently contacted my future brother in law, who has his own film studio to film a trip out there again.
It is no secret Mr Epps wants a P-38 of his own. Problem is that pulling Glacier Girl out of the ice nearly bankrupt him. Since then his company has been going strong, I know he just bought a new fleet of MU-2s to expand his cargo business. So it will be interesting to see if and how this next trip pans out.
http://www.eppsaviation.com/epps.html
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Originally posted by BBBB
Word is old Pat (Pat Epps) is scheming to go out to Greenland again and get another one. Pat is a friend of the family. He recently contacted my future brother in law, who has his own film studio to film a trip out there again.
It is no secret Mr Epps wants a P-38 of his own. Problem is that pulling Glacier Girl out of the ice nearly bankrupt him. Since then his company has been going strong, I know he just bought a new fleet of MU-2s to expand his cargo business. So it will be interesting to see if and how this next trip pans out.
http://www.eppsaviation.com/epps.html
I sure would love to know where you dug up this, because not a lick of it is true, except the bankrupt part and maybe being a friend of the family.
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I highly doubt that Denmark would appreciate Mr. Epps returning to Greenland after the last little fiasco that happened, especially concerning the contractual issues that were never completed.
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I didn't dig anything up. Part of what I said it buzz going around at the airport. I work out at PDK where Epps's company is located. My soon to be brother in law owns a production company and was called by someone at Epps to see about filming a short film for them. The location was Greenland.
There are other things that lead a lot of guys here on the airport to think him going back to Greenland might be true. Maybe not to pull another 38 out of the ice, but maybe to vist the site. Who knows. All I know is what I have seen and heard here at PDK. Time will tell.
BTW. The MU-2s are still sitting out here. A row of six of them. Two are replacements for two that were damage beyond repair. I know one was a replacement for a 2004 crashed Mu-2.
Thanks for telling me who, what and how I know what I know.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
I didn't dig anything up. Part of what I said it buzz going around at the
BTW. The MU-2s are still sitting out here. A row of six of them. Two are replacements for two that were damage beyond repair. I know one was a replacement for a 2004 crashed Mu-2.
Thanks for telling me who, what and how I know what I know.
-Spot
BTW I think you better go check to see if those MU-2's are still there, because they aren't. Epps lost the federal reserve contract and the last flight was the end of May.
I know the Epps family, very well. So well in fact that the man signs my paycheck. I have been there for 15 years so I think I know just a little of whats going on with him and his company, more so than you. If you want to talk facts, so be it. But gossip not based in fact does not belong here. Nuff said
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Who would boast about having a bunch of MU-2's anyway?
Argh back on topic me thread hijacking matees, arrrrrrgh...
Glacier Girl is an amazing aircraft to watch fly and even more impressive up close seeing the attention to detail that went into making it as beautiful as it is. The before and after pictures never cease to impress!
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Originally posted by DmdJJ
BTW I think you better go check to see if those MU-2's are still there, because they aren't. Epps lost the federal reserve contract and the last flight was the end of May.
I know the Epps family, very well. So well in fact that the man signs my paycheck. I have been there for 15 years so I think I know just a little of whats going on with him and his company, more so than you. If you want to talk facts, so be it. But gossip not based in fact does not belong here. Nuff said
You are right. Lounge gossip does not belong here. I work off Corsair drive. So it has been awhile since I have been over to that side of PDK. At any rate check you PMs. Since it seems we work at the same airport maybe we could head over to the Downwind and grab a bite sometime.
-Sp0t
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The bottom line remains that there are two parties that have not even remotely been considered in your discussions. They are both the Governing Peoples of Greenland and Denmark. Sadly both entities have been ignored, scorned and looked passed in this hunt for history. Both entities / nation's rights have never been seen through as was promised by the original contracts.
I would be surprised if Greenland Denmark ever let any of us (Americans) ever set foot on that ice shelf short of a government grant, especially after all the lies, subterfuge, and out right BS that was slung around after that recovery.
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That is a good point. If a team were to go back over there from the US, we could always get some funding from Canada, add a few Canuks on the team and maybe slip in under the radar. My view on the whole subject is that, those aircraft belong to the tax payers of the United States. All we did was go over there and claim some of our property.
Now I am not 100% certain what all went on between Greenland and us during that whole deal, but it seems a bit silly for Greenland wanting us to pay them to re-claim some of our property.
-Spot
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SAW THAT AT coloumbus AIRSHOW
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Originally posted by BBBB
That is a good point. If a team were to go back over there from the US, we could always get some funding from Canada, add a few Canuks on the team and maybe slip in under the radar. My view on the whole subject is that, those aircraft belong to the tax payers of the United States. All we did was go over there and claim some of our property.
Now I am not 100% certain what all went on between Greenland and us during that whole deal, but it seems a bit silly for Greenland wanting us to pay them to re-claim some of our property.
-Spot
It transcends levels that mere compensation for accessing a site are considered moot. The issues go back to agreements signed prior to our involvement in World War 2. The bottom line is that we (the US) made agreements that we did not follow through with. We (the US) did this (break agreements) routinely with nations / nation states that we (the US) deemed unlikely to ever matter.
Now, the ironic thing is that we (the US) get peeved when were not allowed to get a "novelty" when that nation / nation state asks that a compensation agreement gets fulfilled....
Imagine?!?
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Bodhi,
For the historically challenged, what were the terms of the agreement and back dealing that occurred during the recovery?
Wolf
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In Greenland's case, specific issues regarding their own rule and such are rather huge issues for those people. They were under Danish rule prior to WW2, but after the invasion by the Germans, they came under US rule. After the war, contrary to all our assurances otherwise, they were returned to Danish rule instead of being given autonomy. It is incidental that they are self governing now as they are still considered a Danish territory.
Furthermore, the levels of economic aid that were promised post war never came. It is the same all over the Pacific. With the exception of the Phillipines, we broke all promises we made to guarantee basing rights. It is no wonder that the native people of those areas hate us. In some cases, we never even cleaned up bomb dispersal sights or we left massive amounts of hazardous waste to poison the land of these people.
Now we ***** and whine over not being able to get back something that they (the people of these places who live in squalor) consider to be nothing more than novelty items that only a rediculously rich nation like America can afford.
The Greenland issue also includes some very specific contractual issues that were not fulfilled. Specifically the return of an aircraft to the Danes. Imagine how the people of Greenland feel. It is their land and their property in that ice shelf.
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i only live 15 minutes away from where glacier girl was redone...Roy Shoffner was a fomer employer of mine many y/rs ago
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I remember seeing the P-38 bodhi was working on when he lived here in Orlando and a 190 (was it an A8 or a D9 i forge) almost side by side frenchy. And the 190 is not that big of a plane. :P
The 38 barely looked any bigger than the 190. The one thing that gave it the impression of being bigger was the props on either side and the plane being taller due to the landing gear.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
In Greenland's case, specific issues regarding their own rule and such are rather huge issues for those people. They were under Danish rule prior to WW2, but after the invasion by the Germans, they came under US rule. After the war, contrary to all our assurances otherwise, they were returned to Danish rule instead of being given autonomy. It is incidental that they are self governing now as they are still considered a Danish territory.
Furthermore, the levels of economic aid that were promised post war never came. It is the same all over the Pacific. With the exception of the Phillipines, we broke all promises we made to guarantee basing rights. It is no wonder that the native people of those areas hate us. In some cases, we never even cleaned up bomb dispersal sights or we left massive amounts of hazardous waste to poison the land of these people.
Now we ***** and whine over not being able to get back something that they (the people of these places who live in squalor) consider to be nothing more than novelty items that only a rediculously rich nation like America can afford.
The Greenland issue also includes some very specific contractual issues that were not fulfilled. Specifically the return of an aircraft to the Danes. Imagine how the people of Greenland feel. It is their land and their property in that ice shelf.
So part of the contract was they give one of two(I have a book on the recovery, but its been years since I read it, I thought they have planned t get atleast 2 but cost overuns and the melting down to them took to long?) recovered P-38s to Greenland?
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There were plans to return an aircraft to Denmark in return for their cooperation in the endeavor.
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Well they've only been ABLE to pull the one out so far.
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BTW, it was Icelandic equip that spotted them. At the time, a unique Ice-scanner I belive. They were some 70 m. down in the Ice.
BTW, Iceland was grabbed by the British at the same day as the Germans rolled into the Netherlands. (The news sent Hitler into a towering rage hehe :t ) Anyway, the USA took over before they had a war with Germany. In 1944, while Denmark was a Germany occupied "boss" of Iceland, Iceland declared independence.
The Danish are still pissed off, and claim they would have let us go. But they still hold on to Greenland and the Faroe Islands.....
Well, you have an opportunity, - use it.
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Originally posted by Tac
I remember seeing the P-38 bodhi was working on when he lived here in Orlando and a 190 (was it an A8 or a D9 i forge) almost side by side frenchy. And the 190 is not that big of a plane. :P
The 38 barely looked any bigger than the 190. The one thing that gave it the impression of being bigger was the props on either side and the plane being taller due to the landing gear.
Are you sure? Definitly not the impression that I had.
FW190 A8 @ 34ft 5.5in (http://www.aviation-history.com/focke-wulf/fw190.html)
P38 @ 52ft . 0 in (http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p38.html)
Almost 20 feet wingspan difference. Where you at anyway P38 dweeb ... haven't seen you terrorize the skies for a couple of years :D
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Tac only saw the Main center section of the P-38 which is quite small by itself.
The FW190 was an F8 and is well along in its restoration since the former shop I worked at closed its doors.
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Was it the FW with the pilot that shot a flare in his leg?
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I was at work last week when I heard a rumbling off in the distance. When I found what was making it my jaw almost hit the floor. It was a B24 flying a few 100 feet off the ground. I just stood there for a few minutes watching it fly out of site. Does anyone have any pics of the B24 I saw?
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Was it the FW with the pilot that shot a flare in his leg?
Yes it was Frenchy. The pilot shot down a Mustang III in a HO off all things, and the other Mustang shot him down.
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Originally posted by Larry
I was at work last week when I heard a rumbling off in the distance. When I found what was making it my jaw almost hit the floor. It was a B24 flying a few 100 feet off the ground. I just stood there for a few minutes watching it fly out of site. Does anyone have any pics of the B24 I saw?
The B-24 is owned by the Collins Foundation, they generally fly it with their B-17 all over the country to sell rides in them. I personally know one of their pilots, Fred Lewis. You may want to visit their wedsite for photos. I know they sell a lot of other items as well. The plane on the ground lis much smaller then you would think, in fact a B-17 isn't that much bigger next to a P-47. The waist gunners can actually stand while manning their guns. The 24 has much more room inside than the 17. When inspecting the bomb bay you see all of the hydraulic lines running through the bomb compartment, it makes you think...... a few well placed shots to that area will disable the plane, B-17's were cable controlled so dont have that same problem. Like Adolf Galland said, " a few bursts and watch the plane burn"
By the way the Collins Foundation changes the paint schemes on the bombers every few years so they may have a few different photos of the same plane.
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if you guys ever find yourselves in portland oregon go to the town micminville an hour away if that cool air meuseum with everything there:O :O :O :O :O :O :O :O :O
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somewhere in kentucky i sat in the cockpit of the galacier girl. it was pretty cool... just thought i would throw that out there.
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Originally posted by ColSuave
somewhere in kentucky i sat in the cockpit of the galacier girl. it was pretty cool... just thought i would throw that out there.
:lol
:rofl
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I took trip to visit her a couple years ago in Middlesboro KY. Got her pic and a piece of her hanging on my son's bedroom wall.
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Originally posted by Golfer
:lol
:rofl
:furious DON'T LAUGH AT MY RANDOM COMMENTS!!!
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These are a couple a took when she was at the Reno Air Races this year.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/alohajoe_/Pics039.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/alohajoe_/Pics037.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/alohajoe_/Pics035.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/alohajoe_/Pics011.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/alohajoe_/Pics009.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/alohajoe_/Pics010.jpg)
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The image below provided by Capt.Joe shows a stencil that states that this P-38 is a P-38E. However, the serial number is that of a P-38F-1-LO delivered on June 3, 1942. Indeed, no P-38Es were among those that flew trans-Atlantic ferry flight in operation Bolero.
You would think that the with millions of dollars and countless manhours invested, someone involved in the recovery and rebuild would have done some basic research into the aircraft's history and origin. :huh
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/alohajoe_/Pics009.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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<
> =WW=
Yeah, I sent the people of the Lost Squadron website an e-mail regarding that already as I did research after I was told in a previous thread that this was not flown in battle.
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And here is their reply.
Actually GG was manufactured as a E model and converted to an F to go on operation Bolero.
When the conversion was made they never changed the stenciling on the side of the plane. That is why it says E and not F.
In the original logs for GG, which we have, the E was crossed out and the letter F was penciled in next to it.
Also, E canopies open from left to right and production F models open front to rear. GG s opens from left to right.
Thank you,
Bob Cardin
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Originally posted by RATTFINK
And here is their reply.
Actually GG was manufactured as a E model and converted to an F to go on operation Bolero.
This is incorrect. 41-7630 was manufactured as a P-38F-1-LO. That is indisputable.
When the conversion was made they never changed the stenciling on the side of the plane. That is why it says E and not F.
Incorrect again. See above.
In the original logs for GG, which we have, the E was crossed out and the letter F was penciled in next to it.
This was commonplace. Army printed log books for the P-40E were issued with P-40Ks. It absolutely does not establish the actual model. That is done via the serial number and the actual contract, which in this case still exists. In this instance, the contract number was AC-15546, which included 210 P-38Es and 277 of the P-38F-LO and P-38F-1-LO. All log books for these aircraft said "P-38E" as they were printed before the line switched over to the F model. Again, Mr, Cardin didn't do his research.
Also, E canopies open from left to right and production F models open front to rear. GG s opens from left to right.
This is incorrect. All P-38F-LO, P-38F-1-LO, P-38F-5-LO and some P-38G-1-LO had the side opening canopy. I have photos that establish this beyond doubt. Rear opening canopies were introduced early into the P-38F-15-LO lot.
Sorry rattfink, but Cardin didn't do enough research. Feel free to pass this on. Ask him if Bodie, Ethell or Jordan rings a bell, or if perhaps Ilfrey and Richardson seem familiar. Several historians established the lineage of his P-38 as soon as the serial number was determined. A simple call to Lockheed-Martin's historian would have been enough. Moreover, Bodie has photocopies of all original P-38 contracts, which he made personally when he worked for Kelly Johnson at the Skunk Works. There is no question as to which model P-38 Glacier Girl is. It's a P-38F-1-LO, Lockheed model 222-60-15.
My regards,
Widewing
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Sent.
Here is his e-mail address mrp38@wwgap.net
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Another reply from Bob
My last comment on the matter, the panel on the side of GG said P-38E. Not F. That is why it says that today.
I agree it now is a P-38F-1LO but when we recovered and restored her we put exactly the same stencils back on her as when we got her.
I can't offer any more that that. I have 1st hand personal knowlege of what the stencil said, so I am positive it is 100 per cent accurate.. Why it was that way, I can only wonder.
Bob
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Well, at least he admits that the plane was a P-38F-1-LO, but he uses the term, "now". A number of P-38Es were upgraded with newer radios and the P-38F-1-LO fuel system. However, all of these were shipped off for duty in Alaska. A few RP-38Es (the redesignation of the P-38E) were sent to Britain by ship. None were assigned to the Bolero mission. 41-7630 was not a conversion, but a P-38F-1-LO from the day its construction began on the Lockheed line.
As to having a stencil saying P-38E, I don't doubt his word. I did some digging on this today. The first ten P-38J-1-LOs were stenciled with P-38H. Both types were delivered to contract AC-21217. Since both P-38Es and P-38Fs were delivered to contract AC-15646, F models may have been erroneously stenciled with P-38E. It was probably a contract requirement to stencil the type on the side, and if the original contract language said P-38E, that's what they would stencil, right or wrong. Government inspectors would reject any aircraft not meeting the exact language of the contract.
Let me give you an example of this same mentality. My company manufactures a critical component for the Mk48 ADCAP torpedo. The original part number was 4266-1-00 Revision A. Over the years, the part was improved several times and the revision level is now Revision G. However, because the original contract calls for Revision A, the data plate says Revision A. All engineering and Navy drawings say Revision G. If we put G on the data plate, the government inspector would reject the units. The Navy knows that they are getting Revision G, they approved all upgrades. Nonetheless, the contract was never changed. I hope you can appreciate the convoluted and often obtuse logic of the government.
My regards,
Widewing
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I hear ya =WW=.
I'm used to the revision process :)
You are one of the most knowledgeable guys I know and you do your research.
<>
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This topic was stuck in my craw and I did some additional research in my spare time. What I uncovered supports the theory I proposed in the thread. So, I sent an e-mail to Bob Cardin, giving him what I had and providing him with what he needs to answer questions about why Glacier Girl is stenciled as a P-38E. Here's the letter I sent...
"Good day Mr. Cardin,
Recently, there was a discussion on the Aces High Bulletin Board about Glacier Girl and why she bears a stencil that says P-38E. Some research shows that this particular serial number comes from a lot of early P-38Fs. Nonetheless, when you recovered the Lightning, it was stenciled as a P-38E. This discussion caused me to put on my historian's hat and start digging into the past.
First, I contacted an old timer who began flying P-38s in early 1942. I asked if he had ever seen P-38s stenciled differently than the actual model number. He said that he had. In fact, he had seen a P-38F marked exactly as was Glacier Girl. This fellow was an instructor at a P-38 RTU squadron. He logged time in the E, F, G, H and J models. He reported that he had seen a brand new P-38J-1-LO that was stenciled as a P-38H. He didn't know why this was done, but he certainly confirms that it was done. I began to formulate a theory on why this was done.
So, what next? I sent out several e-mails to other old timers who worked at Lockheed in the early years of P-38 production. One guy gave me the name and phone number of Lester W. Blount, who worked in the Engineering Dept from 1941 through 1947. Lester is 88 years old now and is in failing health.
Lester confirmed my theory, and even though his memory is far less than perfect, he did recall that aircraft were marked according to contract requirements. Glacier Girl was built under the same contract as all of the P-38Es. Marking requirements are defined by the contract. This contract was expanded several times, but the language never revised. Thus, all the aircraft must be marked in accordance to the requirements detailed within that document. Therefore, it appears that the P-38E stencil was applied to all of the P-38F, P-38F-1-LO, F-4-1-LO and F-4A-1-LO aircraft delivered to that contract. Log books were "marked-up" to change the P-38E to whatever version was actually built under contract AC-15646. Since the F-4s were essentially rebuilt from E and F models, they were re-stenciled upon completion of the rework. The P-38Fs were not re-stenciled as the upgrades they received prior to Bolero were minor in comparison.
So, if anyone should question you in the future as to why Glacier Girl is stenciled as a P-38E, you can state that not only was this how you found her, but explain why she was marked that way originally."
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Great stuff Widewing. Thanks for sharing that.
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Originally posted by Widewing
So, if anyone should question you in the future as to why Glacier Girl is stenciled as a P-38E, you can state that not only was thishow you found her , but explain why she was marked that way originally."
Not getting on you WW with this quote, I just want to make a point.
Pat Epps and Richard Taylor were the two men that made this P-38 come out of the ice. Those two spent millions finding and recovering it. Bob Cardin did not spend any of his money that I know of. He worked for the GES(The Greenland Expedition Society). Then he kissed Schoffners butt so he could keep a paycheck. Roy Schoffner only came along in '92 with needed money, but yet gets most of the credit. The GES new it was an "F" model from the start so why this has been disputed here is just dang funny.
I just wish that Pat had let us rebuild it in his own shop. It wouldnt have taken us 10 years of milking the cow to finish it as Cardin did.
One of the greatest memories was Pat Epps giving me a one on one tour with the P-38 after it was pulled out of the ice. It was great crawing all over a piece of history and seeing it first hand.
If any one who reads these boards has the chance to meet Pat Epps or Richard Taylor, thank them, and give them the credit they deserve.
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Originally posted by DmdJJ
Not getting on you WW with this quote, I just want to make a point.
Point well taken here. Good to know the facts. Thanks.
My regards,
Widewing
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Mr. Roy should get the credit he gets. The job that needed to be done required money, and Mr. Roy supplied it. And Cardin did a great job managing the award winning restoration. Cardin never claimed to have spent his money on it, he never claimed to have any money. You can say whatever you want about Bob Cardin and Mr. Roy, but they got the job done when no one else could or did. And few people were nicer, or treated people better.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You can say whatever you want about Bob Cardin and Mr. Roy, but they got the job done when no one else could or did. And few people were nicer, or treated people better.
Go ahead and believe the smoke those two blew up your ***. Epps and Taylor spent over 10 years looking for the aircraft. Taylor lost his business, and Epps almost did. Shoffner came around like a vultcher in the last year as a sponsor(1992) then proceded with law suits and took the bird away from them. Real class act.
This is the last from me about this. I was there(not greenland) but knew and worked for Pat Epps and family during this time. Nuff said.