Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Russian on October 09, 2007, 04:02:45 PM
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I'm looking for some hard-to-find ammo and would like some assistance of knowledgeable person. I need 7.62 Nagant ammo. Preferable, cheaper the better. Can anyone suggest a site?
So far, I found aimsurpus is the cheapest around... 50 for 23$
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http://www.thesportsmansguide.com
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com
Two good places to start.
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MidawayUSA 7.62X54 Russian Rimmed (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=695456&t=11082005)
180 grain boat tail ammo. New manufactured. 400rds for $99.99 Not a bad deal for bulk ammo. MidayUSA allways has deals on bulk ammo and they ship right to your house. I buy all my ammo and reload supplies from them and always get great service. HIGHLY recommend them.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
MidawayUSA 7.62X54 Russian Rimmed (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=695456&t=11082005)
180 grain boat tail ammo. New manufactured. 400rds for $99.99 Not a bad deal for bulk ammo. MidayUSA allways has deals on bulk ammo and they ship right to your house. I buy all my ammo and reload supplies from them and always get great service. HIGHLY recommend them.
Tthanks. But I doubt they will fit into a revolver..... :p
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I assumed since you were asking for 7.62 Nagant ammo it was for a Mossin Nagant rifle.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
I assumed since you were asking for 7.62 Nagant ammo it was for a Mossin Nagant rifle.
I realized that many people are unaware that 7.62 Nagant = 7.62 x 38R.
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Originally posted by Russian
I realized that many people are unaware that 7.62 Nagant = 7.62 x 38R.
Now, is that the same that is used in the Tokarev Automatic, or is it a different rimmed round?
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Now, is that the same that is used in the Tokarev Automatic, or is it a different rimmed round?
Tokarev = 7.62 x 25
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Ahh, thanks. I was wondering if they were the same round.
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Did you bother looking at my links or not?
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The 23 bucks for 50 was probly about as cheap as that stuff gets.. it is a very specialized round.. You can't even make the stuff or reload it. Real ugly with the case mouth part.
even when you have some ammo.. you don't have much... it is a weak round.. makes a 38 spl seem powerful.
lazs
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Did you bother looking at my links or not?
Yep, I already searched those before you posted it. One site is at least two bucks more than from aimsurplus. Other is 5$ more.
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Originally posted by lazs2
The 23 bucks for 50 was probly about as cheap as that stuff gets.. it is a very specialized round.. You can't even make the stuff or reload it. Real ugly with the case mouth part.
even when you have some ammo.. you don't have much... it is a weak round.. makes a 38 spl seem powerful.
lazs
That cal may not have extreme power, but I assume just like 7.62x25, it has ridiculous penetration. Plus, it has good history behind it.
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no.. the tokerev ammo is very high velocity... the nagant ammo is low velocity...around 38 spl velocity but with a much lighter round. Very low energy and penetration levels.
A good round to compare it with would be something like the 32 auto round.
lazs
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It was probably fine for shooting people in the back of the head from six inches though.
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Originally posted by lazs2
no.. the tokerev ammo is very high velocity... the nagant ammo is low velocity...around 38 spl velocity but with a much lighter round. Very low energy and penetration levels.
A good round to compare it with would be something like the 32 auto round.
lazs
Yep, it seems you're right. Regardless, Nagant 1895 is cheap shooter that I will enjoy. Also, ammo prices will drop since Russia is restarting production for it.
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I came across some at classic arms for $15/40. Classic arms is an "OK" place to deal with -- I got my RC Mauser there and some Yugo 8mm.
http://www.classicarms.us/
About 1/2 way down the page.
Charon
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Originally posted by Toad
It was probably fine for shooting people in the back of the head from six inches though.
1............................ .............10
There are some very few things on the Internet that really make me angry.
And especially hearing them form a person who participated in preparing history's greatest mass murder, fortunately it was not implemented. Yet.
Nobody knows was it the last surviving ensign (michman) on board of destroyer Bezuprechniy (Flawless) who made a one and the last shot blowing the ship up, not putting a Flag down on May 15th 1905, Russian calendar.
People died with the last 7th shot on the Great Retreat of 1915. Officers who were dieing in the mountains of Armeina, swamps of Eastern Prussia, forests of Belorussia and steppes of Ukraine. And later they saluted in Berlin 1945.
To Russian: Dima, our common friend, ;) Evangelina, worked in Sberbank, they were trained to shoot Nagans every 6 months :) So I had a girlfriend who shot a gun that I didn't :)
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Originally posted by Charon
I came across some at classic arms for $15/40. Classic arms is an "OK" place to deal with -- I got my RC Mauser there and some Yugo 8mm.
http://www.classicarms.us/
About 1/2 way down the page.
Charon
I'm going to try those guys. The website or a person on the phone did not give me any 'secure' feeling.
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Well, their customer service is marginal. I don't mean returns, etc. just not a friendly, inviting bunch. I had no issues with my transaction aside from the rifle being poorly packed, but no real complaints either.
They have been around for a while and are basically a "safe" vendor. Buy one of their pimped out chromed 91/30s;m44s or AKs while you're at it :)
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
Well, their customer service is marginal. I don't mean returns, etc. just not a friendly, inviting bunch. I had no issues with my transaction aside from the rifle being poorly packed, but no real complaints either.
They have been around for a while and are basically a "safe" vendor. Buy one of their pimped out chromed 91/30s;m44s or AKs while you're at it :)
Charon
I'd love to buy an AK, but I live in extreme-socialism so that's out of a question.
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Originally posted by Boroda
To Russian: Dima, our common friend, ;) Evangelina, worked in Sberbank, they were trained to shoot Nagans every 6 months :) So I had a girlfriend who shot a gun that I didn't :)
Does she actually carry it in a bank? That gives new meaning - don't be rude to tellers. LOL.
Can you ask Estel on what type of ammo he uses in his?
I got 200 rounds of this old USSR sport stuff.
(http://www.classicarms.us/NAGAMO.gif)
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Originally posted by Russian
Does she actually carry it in a bank? That gives new meaning - don't be rude to tellers. LOL.
Can you ask Estel on what type of ammo he uses in his?
I got 200 rounds of this old USSR sport stuff.
(http://www.classicarms.us/NAGAMO.gif)
Sport stuff with long brass? With lead bullet deep inside the brass? LOL I have seen this boxes not long ago ;) Keep them, they should be rare now, like pre-1908 three-line cartridges with hemispheric bullet.
These should be low velocity rounds, with a powder charge two times smaller then usual. There is a chapter in Yuriev's book, "Sports Shooting", that I sent you about a year ago. There are some hints about tuning a three-line and Nagans.
Estel has a traumatic 8mm "Naganych", BTW, why not ask him? I'll send his ICQ contact later.
Evangelina has a rare experience, her bank got robbed, the idiot who attempted robbery was arrested on spot... They got the training, but were told not to play "cowboys" and never even touch weapons in such cases...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sport stuff with long brass? With lead bullet deep inside the brass? LOL I have seen this boxes not long ago ;) Keep them, they should be rare now, like pre-1908 three-line cartridges with hemispheric bullet.
These should be low velocity rounds, with a powder charge two times smaller then usual. There is a chapter in Yuriev's book, "Sports Shooting", that I sent you about a year ago. There are some hints about tuning a three-line and Nagans.
Estel has a traumatic 8mm "Naganych", BTW, why not ask him? I'll send his ICQ contact later.
Evangelina has a rare experience, her bank got robbed, the idiot who attempted robbery was arrested on spot... They got the training, but were told not to play "cowboys" and never even touch weapons in such cases...
I haven't received it yet, so I'm not sure. The only info I have is that picture.
8mm? That doesn't sound right....or maybe it's something special like 'hydro-shock' ammo they sell here that causes maximum damage.
So are you going to continue story with Devochka Eva? How did they stop robber?
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Originally posted by Boroda
And especially hearing them form a person who participated in preparing history's greatest mass murder, fortunately it was not implemented. Yet.
It was never implemented because the Soviets never rolled their tanks out of the Warsaw Pact countries they conquered and ruled at the end of WW2.
It's true they did roll them around inside a few Warsaw Pact countries like Hungary but they managed to be smart enough to stay out of Western Europe, thus avoiding another World War.
We had a reaction plan; it would have been implemented if the Soviets had decided to continue their conquest. I'm sure your side had one too. Lie and deny that if you like; everyone knows the truth.
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Seeing pictures of the ammo now reminds me of seeing a Nagant in a little hole-in-the-wall gun shop. I was looking at other things, but I started chatting with the owner, and he pulled the gun out of the glass for me. I noticed that it had an unusually heavy DA trigger pull...But that was because of the Gas-seal system.
The cylinder not only lined each chamber up with the barrel, but kinda slid the cylinder down over it, so that it overlapped a little. What made the pull so heavy was the extra effort of moving the cylinder back and forth as well as rotating it.
A technically interesting revolver, But you'll want to make extra sure to keep it cleaned and oiled, with the gas-seal system.
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Originally posted by Russian
I haven't received it yet, so I'm not sure. The only info I have is that picture.
Looks exactly like my Father's ammo boxes. "Combat" ammo came in boxes of 14 IIRC. I doubt I can take pictures of it though :)
Originally posted by Russian
8mm? That doesn't sound right....or maybe it's something special like 'hydro-shock' ammo they sell here that causes maximum damage.
It's an ordinary officer's (double-action) Nagan that is castrated to use 8mm gas, blank or traumatic (rubber bullets) ammo. It has deflectors inside cylinder, so full-length cartridge doesn't fit there. Many people have gas/traumatic Makarovs now, so Nagan looks much more "persuading" in self-defense :)
Originally posted by Russian
So are you going to continue story with Devochka Eva? How did they stop robber?
I assembled a PC for her about a month ago, now thinking of setting up an internet connection, so she'll take a toy away from her son :D
With that robber they pressed an alarm button and Militia came in like two minutes. They only time to start crying... The bank was closed for the rest of the day and their shift got several days off.
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no matter what.. the truth is that one hell of a lot more people were shot in the back of the head with that round than ever were killed in "combat" by it. Not the kind of "history" I am that into.
It is a weak round not suited for combat with a well made but complex firearm.
The idea was that the mouth would seal the cyl gap and increase velocity.. A complex solution to a non existent problem.
In reality.. the very case idea itself limited the pressure it could take sooooo... the solution was not only not needed (revolvers are capable of very high velocity) but... the reverse was true... it limited the velocity and diameter of the bullet itself.
an oddball design best relegated to the trash heap of firearms ideas.
lazs
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
A technically interesting revolver, But you'll want to make extra sure to keep it cleaned and oiled, with the gas-seal system.
I have never heard of a Nagant mechanical failure. Here it's an example of perfectly reliable and accurate handgun. And it's the only revolver that can be used with a silencer (Bramit device).
BTW, it's funny, but the "soldier's" single action Nagant was in fact more expensive then "officer's" double-action :)
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wrong... any revolver can be used with a silencer. to prove my point.. simply tape a one quart plastic bottle over the end of any low velocity revolver (subsonic) and fire it.
you must OF COURSE have permission and permits from the enlightened government to do so but.... you will notice that there is very little gas, much less noise, coming from the barrel cyl. gap. the reason the nagant is so quiet is because the round is so weak and puny.
There is some advantage gained in noise reduction but... it is moot compared to the loss of power the system imposes.
I have shot nagants... they are generaly accurate but nothing to brag about. Like most russian handguns they are medium in the accuracy dept. and.. like all russian handguns.. they have terrible sights.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
no matter what.. the truth is that one hell of a lot more people were shot in the back of the head with that round than ever were killed in "combat" by it. Not the kind of "history" I am that into.
Keep thinking so, it's your own problem. As usual I can only say that your view on Russian history is more then narrow.
Originally posted by lazs2
It is a weak round not suited for combat with a well made but complex firearm.
Tell this to the people who preferred Nagants to automatic pistols. And keep in mind that it was produced until 1944. Produced in Russia/USSR with industry uncapable of making "technological marvels" like M-16.
"Complex" doesn't always mean "expensive" or "unreliable". Technology is sometimes a weird matter, for example, SVT production took 2 times less man-hours then old three-line 91/30.
Nagant was the only revolver produced here since 1895, the only one that didn't use black powder. It saw more combat then any American firearm, so your conclusions contradict reality.
Originally posted by lazs2
The idea was that the mouth would seal the cyl gap and increase velocity.. A complex solution to a non existent problem.
In reality.. the very case idea itself limited the pressure it could take sooooo... the solution was not only not needed (revolvers are capable of very high velocity) but... the reverse was true... it limited the velocity and diameter of the bullet itself.
an oddball design best relegated to the trash heap of firearms ideas.
Why didn't S&W win the contest like it did in 1869? In 1895 Russian army deeded to switch from black-powder S&W, and there were no reliable automatic pistols back then, even Mauser-96 wasn't invented yet, so - Russian Military Ministry chose the best revolver design available, suitable for Russian industry - simple and reliable. Didn't you ever think that gas-seal design makes production easier, you don't have to make it as precise as traditional revolvers? Production price and industrial capabilities were pretty much considered.
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baroda... here is a perfect example of someone who knows nothing about a subject feeling that they do because they read something.
how many handguns have you shot? keeping a crappy gun in service.. especially a sidearm.. for a long time does not mean it saw more combat.
shoot some sidearms. I can't imagine anyone picking a nagant over any semi auto made after about 1910. The 1911 colt was so superior to the nagant that it is not even a contest. as was the P38 and even the makarov and tokarev.
It is a crap firearm that probly got more people killed than it killed in combat.
The smith was an older revolver that was designed for black powder... even so.. it was ten times the gun the nagant was if you really really really had to shoot someone with it. the energy level was more than double and it shot a large caliber round. the nagant was a latter model and designed for smokeless powder as were all handguns at the time.. There were an infinite amount of handguns that would have been better suited than the pitiful nagant.
in short.. I relegate the nagant to the "better than nothing but not much" category.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
baroda... here is a perfect example of someone who knows nothing about a subject feeling that they do because they read something.
how many handguns have you shot? keeping a crappy gun in service.. especially a sidearm.. for a long time does not mean it saw more combat.
I have shot only Makarov and Margolin.
My Father was a Leningrad Military District champion in pistol shooting back in the 60s, and one of his records isn't beaten yet. What he said was that Nagant was the most accurate handgun available. Much better then Czech revolvers (S&W clones? 38 special).
Originally posted by lazs2
shoot some sidearms. I can't imagine anyone picking a nagant over any semi auto made after about 1910. The 1911 colt was so superior to the nagant that it is not even a contest. as was the P38 and even the makarov and tokarev.
1911 = impossible to produce in Russia back then. Tokarev = impossible to hit anything farther then 10meters.
You completely missed my point, looking from traditional American "technological overkill" point of view. Again: gas seal makes the whole production much cheaper because you don't have to keep the precision. Any high-power American revolver made in Russian factories in 1895 will probably blow up on the third shot.
Nagant does what it is supposed for: lets you effectively kill an enemy up to 50m far. It's main disadvantage is that it's slow to reload. And gas-seal doesn't make it too complex.
Originally posted by lazs2
It is a crap firearm that probly got more people killed than it killed in combat.
Again: tell it to people who preferred it to automatics.
During WWII imported Winchesters fitted for 7.62x54R were considered extremely unreliable, while Nagants were almost fail-safe.
Originally posted by lazs2
The smith was an older revolver that was designed for black powder... even so.. it was ten times the gun the nagant was if you really really really had to shoot someone with it. the energy level was more than double and it shot a large caliber round. the nagant was a latter model and designed for smokeless powder as were all handguns at the time.. There were an infinite amount of handguns that would have been better suited than the pitiful nagant.
in short.. I relegate the nagant to the "better than nothing but not much" category.
If we only were as rich as you guys - we probably could afford something better and change ammo types and calibers every 10-20 years. And you have to compare Russian arms to their foreign competitors of the same time. They are always simplier and more reliable, and, the biggest difference: don't require same level of precision in production.
Three-line 1891 to Mauser-98/Springfield, SVT to Garand, PPSh to Thompson, Kalashnikov to M-16. Russian/Soviet weapons can be made in simpliest conditions, almost in any bed-factory, they don't require all that equipment and precision you got in the West. Technological inabilities are compensated with smart designs, not always simple. Technologically-backward USSR was the only country other then the rich and developed US to have a mass-produced semi-auto rifle in WWII.
If you speak of a "complex solution to a non existent problem" - then it's an M-16. Truly "oddball design". Here any designer offering anything like that will end as a warehouse-director in a shovel factory at Mukhosransk. It's pure sabotage.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Keep thinking so, it's your own problem. As usual I can only say that your view on Russian history is more then narrow.
Tell this to the people who preferred Nagants to automatic pistols. And keep in mind that it was produced until 1944. Produced in Russia/USSR with industry uncapable of making "technological marvels" like M-16.
"Complex" doesn't always mean "expensive" or "unreliable". Technology is sometimes a weird matter, for example, SVT production took 2 times less man-hours then old three-line 91/30.
Nagant was the only revolver produced here since 1895, the only one that didn't use black powder. It saw more combat then any American firearm, so your conclusions contradict reality.
Why didn't S&W win the contest like it did in 1869? In 1895 Russian army deeded to switch from black-powder S&W, and there were no reliable automatic pistols back then, even Mauser-96 wasn't invented yet, so - Russian Military Ministry chose the best revolver design available, suitable for Russian industry - simple and reliable. Didn't you ever think that gas-seal design makes production easier, you don't have to make it as precise as traditional revolvers? Production price and industrial capabilities were pretty much considered.
This gives a little insight as to why it was used. From Guns' world:
The Nagant gas-seal revolver was patented by the Nagant brothers (Emile and Leon) in 1892 with some additional improvements made in 1895. This design was one of several offered to the Imperial Russian Army as a new service revolver in 1895. Emile and Leon were on good terms with the Russian Army due to a previous cooperative effort to produce the Mosin-Nagant M1891 service rifle. This may be why the Russians adopted their design.
Here's a linky:http://www.gunsworld.com/nagant/nagant_us.html
Also note in there that as soon as they could get something else, the poles' switched too. More than likely, though, because the 9mm revolution was on, and it had proven to be a much better round.
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Originally posted by lazs2
wrong... any revolver can be used with a silencer. to prove my point.. simply tape a one quart plastic bottle over the end of any low velocity revolver (subsonic) and fire it.
you must OF COURSE have permission and permits from the enlightened government to do so but.... you will notice that there is very little gas, much less noise, coming from the barrel cyl. gap. the reason the nagant is so quiet is because the round is so weak and puny.
There is some advantage gained in noise reduction but... it is moot compared to the loss of power the system imposes.
Did you see the "Brat" (Brother) movie? I think it's available with English subs :D
AFAIK Nagant was the only revolver with mass-produced silencer.
Originally posted by lazs2
I have shot nagants... they are generaly accurate but nothing to brag about. Like most russian handguns they are medium in the accuracy dept. and.. like all russian handguns.. they have terrible sights.
I thought that like some other men you have a pair of hands and maybe even some instruments like pliers or a file.
Father said that the first thing they did with their handguns was to completely re-work the sight. Then - tune up the trigger mechanism, sometimes even change a barrel completely as they did with Nagans, putting a part of a heavy machine-gun barrel instead. Mass "consumer" never needs match accuracy, he needs more reliability and less maintenance.
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Father said that the first thing they did with their handguns was to completely re-work the sight. Then - tune up the trigger mechanism, sometimes even change a barrel completely as they did with Nagans, putting a part of a heavy machine-gun barrel instead. Mass "consumer" never needs match accuracy, he needs more reliability and less maintenance.
I'd never spend a red cent on an inaccurate firearm.
If I found it to be inaccurate, back to the store it goes.
For military uses, It is a different story. In that, if depends' on the country in question, as to what it uses. The Japanese military during WWII was cursed with the 8mm Nambu, which was a substandard weapon at best, but the Japanese perservered with it( Possibly dooming many of they're troops in the process.)
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
This gives a little insight as to why it was used. From Guns' world:
Here's a linky:http://www.gunsworld.com/nagant/nagant_us.html
Nagant lost the competition to Mosin in 1891. I don't think they had enough money to bribe the entire contest commission. Speaking of bribes I again remember the M-16. I can't see any sane reason for using this insane design. A linky for you : http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Also note in there that as soon as they could get something else, the poles' switched too. More than likely, though, because the 9mm revolution was on, and it had proven to be a much better round.
Did you ever think why before 1950 all Russian calibers are in "lines" (1/10th of an inch)? While the whole country switched to metric system long ago? And even now such things as food-cans are still like 76mm or 107mm in diameter, cigarettes and pencils are 7.6mm and so on :)
You look at the problem from another end. It's like that joke about mice and the Wise Owl :) Once mice got fed up: they are small and defenseless, everyone eats them, so they turned to the wisest animal in the Forest, to the Owl. An Own listened to them, thought for a while, and said: "Mice, I advise you to all become hedgehogs! Look, the hedgehog can roll in a ball with the needles all around, and no one can eat him!" Mice were excited and happy and went home shouting "Horray to Owl!", but then they started thinking, how do they turn into hedgehogs? So they went back to an Owl and asked her. And Owl said: "I am a specialist in strategy, and what you ask is pure tactics!"....
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boroda... I have to say that everything you have said so far is pretty much wrong.
The 1911 is simpler to make than a nagant. the nagant was, as I said.. a complex solution to a non existent problem... that of gas escaping and lowering velocity... the fact was.. the system used by nagant ended up requiring low pressure to work... low pressure and a sub caliber round equals low velocity.
there is no smith and wesson revolver that I am aware of that is not more accurate than a nagant and few.. if any that are as weak in power. None are as complex.
It is more difficult to build a nagant than it is to build a smith.. are you saying that south americans could build 1911 copies and smith copies and browning high power copies and the soviets couldn't?
face it... you got a contractor that screwed you guys... you are not that different from us in that regard.
As for the m16... not one of my favorites but.. it does make for a rifle with more intrinsic accuracy than a ak series.
As for sights... good sights on a nagant would require more than a file.. you would need to weld up the front sight and ears on the rear sight and then file everything for one brand of ammo... the front sight is too narrow and the rear too shallow... they are useable but... just barely.
It is a novel handgun that is fairly well made and interesting in a comical way... to low powered to be useful. If you wanted a silenced weapon there are infinite better choices.
I own three makarovs and have shot them a lot... crap sights and heavy for the power but well made and fairly accurate. a good copy of the PP series of walthers.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... I have to say that everything you have said so far is pretty much wrong.
The 1911 is simpler to make than a nagant. the nagant was, as I said.. a complex solution to a non existent problem... that of gas escaping and lowering velocity... the fact was.. the system used by nagant ended up requiring low pressure to work... low pressure and a sub caliber round equals low velocity.
As I said above - SVT took less man/hours to produce then 91/30. Guess why? Guess why SVT production was canceled in 1942? It's all about technological process. 91/30 is made by hand on simple equipment. SVT needed pressing, obviously taking less time and work but it was impossible to produce on the same production lines with 91/30. And pressing equipment was used to make other stuff like PPSh, that was 3 or 4 times cheaper IIRC.
Originally posted by lazs2
there is no smith and wesson revolver that I am aware of that is not more accurate than a nagant and few.. if any that are as weak in power. None are as complex.
It is more difficult to build a nagant than it is to build a smith.. are you saying that south americans could build 1911 copies and smith copies and browning high power copies and the soviets couldn't?
It isn't more difficult to make a nagant then S&W. S&W requires much better tolerances, because nagant has gas-seal system and it's OK if the cylinder almost hangs loose. Anyway it's secured upon the barrel and the cartridge provides better obturation. The whole gas-seal mechanism is quite simple, you can find drawings and see it. It isn't any more complex then making a double-action revolver.
Look, 7.62x54R is an awful cartridge. Conic and rimmed. Our ammo zincs contain 1.5 times less cartridges then, for example, Mauser 7.92 or 0303. The reason for adopting it was that it was impossible to reach tolerance good enough for more modern round. And they produced first 1891 rifles in Russia only in 1895! Before 1895 they were all ordered in France.
Originally posted by lazs2
face it... you got a contractor that screwed you guys... you are not that different from us in that regard.
As for the m16... not one of my favorites but.. it does make for a rifle with more intrinsic accuracy than a ak series.
Who needs such accuracy in an assault rifle? Higher aiming line is surely a great disadvantage, the whole idea of the direct gas action is wrong if you need a rifle to be reliable, but makes it significantly more expensive (=better for contractor).
Look at your troops in Iraq, they mostly can't even hold a rifle properly, they have rifle-butts _over_ their shoulders! What accuracy!? We have an SVD in every squad for accuracy.
Originally posted by lazs2
As for sights... good sights on a nagant would require more than a file.. you would need to weld up the front sight and ears on the rear sight and then file everything for one brand of ammo... the front sight is too narrow and the rear too shallow... they are useable but... just barely.
You almost exactly repeat what my Father said about tuning his weapons. He did the same thing with PMs too.
Originally posted by lazs2
It is a novel handgun that is fairly well made and interesting in a comical way... to low powered to be useful. If you wanted a silenced weapon there are infinite better choices.
No one wanted a silenced weapon in 1895. It was just an extra feature, first Bramit devices were made in the 30s.
About low power - again, it does it's job, it kills at 50 meters, and unlike TT - you can hit something at such a distance with nagan. TT is another extreme, it's too powerfull, but there was a need for unified pistol cartridge for use in SMGs. Tokarev made SMGs for nagan cartridge in the 20s, they were considered too bad for mass-production.
Originally posted by lazs2
I own three makarovs and have shot them a lot... crap sights and heavy for the power but well made and fairly accurate. a good copy of the PP series of walthers.
Father said when they were match shooting from service guns - they preferred Stechkins. PM is a good gun to commit suicide, as they say in the Army. It's small, reliable, but not a gun for target shooting.
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boroda.. hard to follow you since you jump back and forth so much between the nagant revolver in question and svt/ak /model 91.
I am not going to argue soviet weapons philosophy with now... tho it is interesting.
The nagant revolver is just horrible... you claim it is deadly enough... it is about the power of the tiniest pocket pistols...32 acp... I have a walther PPK in this caliber and have no problem hitting man sized targets at 50 yards or so.. It would be problematic to do much damage tho..
The tokerev and makarov both have twice the power and will make good hits out to 75 yards or so...
the nagant is complex.. as to making it "loose" for easy manufacture... nope.. it is not a soviet design in any case.. it is belgium... bought by russia. It was never meant to be sloppy.. it is not sloppy.. it is however.... a bad design.
Where to start? oh yeah... pull the trigger.. got a good grip? cause this thing is a monster to double action... almost 20 lbs of effort! And that is just the beggining... after you empty all 7 puny rounds jerking all over the place trying to make that 20 lb pull (never mind that the sights are so small that in low light you can't even use em) after the gun is empty....
You might as well throw it at em cause..... it has the worlds worst reload time... an old colt single action works better... you got to poke each round out with an ejector rod like old sam's idea but...
The nagant has flared out the case mouth so much that the rounds barely come out of the cylinder.
also.. if you fire a few rounds.. the cyl will spin without the hammer at half ****... you have no idea if a live round will be next up or not.
It is an interesting gun.. but... comical.
I am sure this will be controversial but.. it is even more comical than the luger action and the nambu.
As for bottle necked rifle rounds having a rim.... no big deal.. not the best idea but the brits as well as you got away with it... it is just an idea that was second best to rimless.
lazs
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Lazs, I speak about technological reasons, you speak about general comfort and tell me about shooting double-action and hitting anything over 10m away.
20lbs = 9kg!? I'll call Father now to inquire how they tuned Nagans.
I quote my Father as a match shooter who showed quite decent results from the weapons you mention. Hitting a target at 50m from a TT is a good joke.
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talk to dad all you want.. we are talking about guns issued to troops.. they didn't weld up sights or tune actions in the field.. they went with what they had... truth is.. 99% of wouldn't know what they had in the first place.. they had never fired a handgun before in their lives.
Have you ever fired a tokarev? or makarov? I have.. here we can buy ammo for the tok for about $60 for 1200 rounds.. we shoot the crap out of em.. I would not suggest you stand 50 yards (or them meter things) away from any American shooter with a tokarev in his hand and expect to not get hit.
also.. the high velocity tok round will drop very little at even 75 yards.
I can't imagine tunning the action on a nagant revolver.. would be a nightmare.
none of this matters tho except that the gun was a VERY bad idea for a service revolver... low powered and difficult to reload... you can tune the thing all you want but you can't make reloading it any better.
The old black powder smith top break you replaced it with was 10 times the service revolver.. someone hit with one of those 44's knew they were hit... a snap of the wrist unloaded the gun and there were even crude speedloaders available.. it is a system much like the british webley.
face it.. they blew it on that handgun.
lazs
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Called Father, when he heard about 9kg on the trigger - he was laughing.
He also said that no sane person will shoot from self-cocking, just repeated some things that he explained me when I was in a shooting team myself.
He also said that comparing Nagan and TT accuracy is insane. Even Makarov is much worse then Nagan: moving frame with a front-sight. A properly tuned Nagan will beat any automatic pistol in accuracy. And TT were _never_ used in target shooting. They had a choice of Nagan, PM, APS and TT (models in service). But nothing could beat Nagan.
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nothing you guys made you mean.
Tell your dad that if he can't hit a man sized target at 50 anythings with a mak or a tok then he really needs to get more practice in.
as for the slide moving with the sights... all semi autos pretty much do that... You are aware that semi autos can be tunned right? A stock 1911 can probly shoot groups of about 5"... maybe a little smaller at 25 yards... same for a makarov... A tuned 1911 will shoot 1" groups at the same range... it will do so with the sights mounted on the slide.. I see no reason why the mak or tok couldn't be tunned up...
But.. we are not talking target shooting with welded up guns with 100 hours of work on em.. we are talking about the guns that were handed out to the troops..
sure.. for target shooting you may only use single action.. here we have such sweet double action guns that it makes little difference tho but...
The nagant... the troops are going to draw and fire the thing as fast as they can.. that means double action and that means.. they won't hit a damn thing.. the sights will not be in bright sunlight very often and that means their tiny little blade will be invisible... the damn thing will go dry by the panicked soldier and he will simply be.... unarmed cause.. the damn thing is so slow to reload.
The nagant in single action mode.. with good sights welded on to it and on a nice sunny day with all the time in the world.... is capable of accuracy that is close to most other revolvers... it has no accuracy edge over an out of the box smith or smith copy..
In such a case.. the nagant will have more than enough power to make it's puny slug penetrate target paper..
It all goes to hell tho when you give a stock example to troops to defend themselves with.
You guys chose badly.. why not admit it?
This seems telling to me.. such an obviously bad soviet decision is defended by you.. no other army ever got stuck with a bigger turkey. It is laughable of you to defend it as a service revolver when it is at the bottom of any list for of revolvers (not even mentioning autos) for a service gun.
lazs
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Nagan = reliability and very low service. Reloading is a pain, yes.
Tuning it is quite simple. Same work with trigger cam as any other gun, plus some other details. If you got a rusty nagan somewhere and got 9kg(!!!) on a trigger - then your opinion is worthless here, sorry...
I can only add that what's good for a Russian may be deadly for a foreigner.
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Man sized target... Father hit 98 out of 100 from a PM at 25m.
TT on a man-sized target at 50m is hmmm... statistics. Tokarev has moving barrel. Remember what I said about tolerances? Same Browning's classic automatic, but produced here.
Made some search, first Nagants were produced in Tula in 1897, on the equipment specially bought in Germany and US.
BTW, what really amazed me was a guy at a shooting-range in California shooting a revolver at 100m (!!!) at a target 30x30cm. And he hit it at least once at every three shots!...
OK, going to a pub for some more beer. Lazs, I'll translate this discussion for Father and some Russian gun forum.
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boroda.. I don't know if you believe me but I can hit a man sized target at 100 yards every single time with most of my handguns...
My 44 mag will shoot 1" + groups at 25 yards and I have speedloaders for it... that does not mean I think it is a great service gun.
Again.. russians that were issued nagants did not weld em up or tune em or... single action shoot em with while lining up them tiny little sights... most russians issued that firearm had never even fired a handgun before they were given it.
It is laughably easy for me to hit a man sized target at 50 yards with any handgun I own including my makarov and PPK.
I know you don't know much about firearms but... all semi autos that are not strict blowback action (low powered) have a barrel and that moves to some extent... even the luger and P38 that look like they don't... do. If you didn't have some sort of delayed unlocking then high powered rounds would blow the slide right into your face as the gun exploded.
This does not mean that such guns are not accurate. My Kimber easily shoots 1.5 or so inch groups at 25 yards. The makarov is straight blowback tho...
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. I don't know if you believe me but I can hit a man sized target at 100 yards every single time with most of my handguns...
lazs
Christ Boroda, even I can hit a man-sized target with a handgun at 100 yards.
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It is laughably easy for me to hit a man sized target at 50 yards with any handgun I own including my makarov and PPK.
ROFLOL. I'd like to see that. Especially that little monster I fired. Or Mak / PMM since I recall you didn't shoot too greatly using my Mak.
Btw, Nagant was selected by Tsar regime, not using soviet ideology.
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Originally posted by Russian
ROFLOL. I'd like to see that. Especially that little monster I fired. Or Mak / PMM since I recall you didn't shoot too greatly using my Mak.
Btw, Nagant was selected by Tsar regime, not using soviet ideology.
Dima, just tell us if you need to pull 20 American pounds, that's over 9 kilograms, to shoot your Nagant self-cocking.
I hope Father remembers all this things, so if you'll call him via Sipnet - he'll give you some hints about your revolver.
Now we have at least two Nagant owners here, you and Estel, so we can prove that comrade Lazs is not quite right.
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Originally posted by texasmom
Christ Boroda, even I can hit a man-sized target with a handgun at 100 yards.
From how many shots?
Oh sorry lady. I just can't argue with You.
One of my classmates moved to Texas, made some money there, got married, a kid, and - moved back to Moscow when his wife was pregnant with his second child. I have never seen a happier family. He still misses his arsenal he had in Houston.
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I see our drinking conversation left realms of icq :D
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Originally posted by Russian
I see our drinking conversation left realms of icq :D
Drunken?! Who's drinking? Just beer.
:D
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Originally posted by Boroda
From how many shots?
Oh sorry lady. I just can't argue with You.
One of my classmates moved to Texas, made some money there, got married, a kid, and - moved back to Moscow when his wife was pregnant with his second child. I have never seen a happier family. He still misses his arsenal he had in Houston.
Just takes one well placed shot. :)
How exciting for your classmate! It's wonderful to see happy families. We're a happy family here as well, but we don't have an arsenal.
My husband did some recreational shooting in the past, but it's one of those old civil war replica guns. And I don't do any recreational shooting at all. Only shooting I did was in the army ~ but I was a crack shot *wink*
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Originally posted by texasmom
Just takes one well placed shot. :)
Out of how many? ;)
I am still single, still haven't met any texan/cossack woman, or just a woman who can cook better then I do :D
I only spent one year in a rifleing team. Also shot Margolin two times a week.
Pardon me, but I doubt that anyone can shoot a man-sized target from a first shot at 100m without blind luck. Maybe our targets are not the same size. And I'll place my bet on a Nagant, not at an automatic. Certainly if it wouldn't be Lazs with rusty 9kg trigger shooting from self-cocking.
I am well aware that target shooting is much different from real-life shooting. A target never shoots back. Father always told me that if he can hit 90 out of 100 - he'll probably never hit anything in combat. He went to the Navy in 1943, and served in Engineering corps until 87. Shooting was always his hobby. Now he's 80 and his hand is still steady.
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http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/shot_022305/index1.html
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Originally posted by Boroda
Out of how many? ;)
Out of just one.
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russian... we never fired anything at 50 and 100 yards nor did we fire my PPK...
I still tell the story of you being the only one to want to fire the 340 PD with full house .357 loads. Can' t believe you put a half a box through that thing.
boroda.. read the link that toad shows... it is childs play to hit a man sized target at 100 yards with any American or your-0-peean handgun of any quality.
I have shot untold thousands of rounds at targets of undetermined range from 75-400 yards with handguns... It is not that much harder to hit something at 100 yards than it is at 50 yards.. The sights are the limitation not the guns or ammo... unless it is puny nagant stuff of course.
I was a very good shot.. now.. decent... I used to fire about 2,000 rounds a month.. now... maybe 200 or so. I have always liked to plink at long range tho... thus.. 44 mag. great for 200 yard or so shots. If you know where your gun shoots then it is not difficult to hit a man sized target at 100 yards... if you can't then the sights are probly too far off or you are so bad at it that you wouldn't hit anything at 25 yards.
lazs
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I quit.
I don't argue with ladies who shoot a squirrel in the eye.
I give reasons for choosing this special kind of gun, people answer me with silly "personal experience" with broken revolvers. And no one can fight some myths about a gun that can't kill because recoil doesn't break your wrist. Consumer mentality is when people don't think how the things work and then their soldiers get killed while trying to get an empty brass out of an automatic rifle with a cleaning rod.
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Let's see... weren't the Iraqis armed with the exceptional AK while our troops were stuck with M-16 derivatives during GW1 and GW2?
How'd those work out again?
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boroda... you should quit.. simply because you are talking... no, parroting... some drivel about a subject that you know nothing about. It was a crap gun...your country made a mistake... most likely it was the worst gun ever chosen for a military sidearm.
Fortunately... sidearms are really rarely used by the military. it is kind of a moot point... mostly they are for ceremony or to give someone confidence that he is not unarmed.
you are the one who claimed all these feats of marksmanship for your dad... I am only claiming mediocre marksmanship... feats that the average handgunner here in the states can do if he shoots regularly. hitting a 6' tall target that is more than 2 foot wide at 100 yards is hardly shooting a "squirrel in the eye".
You can't have it both ways... you can't have a revolver that is superior because it has crap tolereances and is also superior for accuracy... you can't have a perfect service sidearm that requires welding and stoning to get to shoot with any accuracy.
The barrel cyl gap on modern revolvers is from .002-.004" that is thousandths of an inch... the dan wesson can actually adjust this..
At that kind of a gap.. the amount of escaping gas is minimal... many many many tests of this gap and its loss of gas and velocity and even sound have been made and the effect is minimal... at most... maybe 50 fps for velocity.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... you should quit.. simply because you are talking... no, parroting... some drivel about a subject that you know nothing about. It was a crap gun...your country made a mistake... most likely it was the worst gun ever chosen for a military sidearm.
My distant friend, I studied weapon engineering for 4 years. Not exactly the subject we discuss, but we had courses on all weapon types.
Again: you "tested" a rusty nagan.
It's like making a conclusion about modern M-16 with modern ammo as of a "magazine fed, air cooled, single shot, muzzle ejecting shoulder weapon".
Originally posted by lazs2
Fortunately... sidearms are really rarely used by the military. it is kind of a moot point... mostly they are for ceremony or to give someone confidence that he is not unarmed.
Finally YOU said it.
As a match-shooting weapon Nagant is better then any automatic available in USSR.
I admire your approach. Testing a gun from self-cocking is an absolutely new and revolutionary way. JFYI: a properly tuned and at least clean nagan is easier on the trigger then a PM out of the box even on self-cocking, but if you fire it like that - then you are in real trouble.
Originally posted by lazs2
you are the one who claimed all these feats of marksmanship for your dad... I am only claiming mediocre marksmanship... feats that the average handgunner here in the states can do if he shoots regularly. hitting a 6' tall target that is more than 2 foot wide at 100 yards is hardly shooting a "squirrel in the eye".
OK guys. You all are Davie Crocketts. We are all Ivan-the-fools. I have visited Father tonight, told him about a full-height target at 100m, he said, well, I'll probably do it, never tried though. What for?... And again he laughed about PM being more accurate then Nagan.
Don't you understand it yourself? It takes some courage to deny obvious.
Originally posted by lazs2
You can't have it both ways... you can't have a revolver that is superior because it has crap tolereances and is also superior for accuracy... you can't have a perfect service sidearm that requires welding and stoning to get to shoot with any accuracy.
You probably have "humanitarian" education, don't you?
Welding a front-sight and filing the rear is for match shooters. Working on trigger load is also quite simple, but it's all unnecessary for an ordinary serviceman. By default - any revolver is more reliable and accurate (if you don't shoot from auto-cocking, I hope I use right words, i have to check with the dictionary all the time in this thread) then any automatic.
Originally posted by lazs2
The barrel cyl gap on modern revolvers is from .002-.004" that is thousandths of an inch... the dan wesson can actually adjust this..
0.1mm gap in Russia in 1895?! Impossible in mass-production. Oh, no, it was the limit. Wait! Temperature expansion should be bigger then that. Whom are you trying to fool?! Not even speaking about other things like placing cylinder holes exactly against the barrel, that is probably the biggest problem. BTW, S&W made revolvers with gas-seal according to Nagant patent too.
We had to order machinery from US and Germany to make Nagants. Russian engineering = designing things that work after being manufactured with lowest tolerance and making them perform as good as your high-tech overkill.
Originally posted by lazs2
At that kind of a gap.. the amount of escaping gas is minimal... many many many tests of this gap and its loss of gas and velocity and even sound have been made and the effect is minimal... at most... maybe 50 fps for velocity.
Again the money for the fish!...
We couldn;t make a cylinder cell stop against the barrel, with a jacketed bullet it will blow the gun up. So the cylinder comes upon the barrel, with cylinder almost hanging loose, tolerances are really bad, but the obturation is ebsured my a brass between a barrel and cylinder. No one cares about extra 15m/s. And revolvers can be hmmm let me check with dictionary again.. adjusted? zeroed? for those who want to shoot father then 25m. TT simply can't be properly adjusted. Grouping is awful. Nagant has the best grouping then any handgun available here.
And if you want to hit something 100m away - there are other weapons. I suggest a carbine :)
BTW, if you all have perfect eyesight - how do you shoot a full-height target at 100m from a handgun? Resting your wrist against a bag of peas? I spent some time in a shooting team, we never did anything like that, shooting from one hand, left hand in a pocket or on a waist. I shoot worse from two hands, but I was shooting at a range and, fortunately, never had a "target" shooting back at me. 20 years ago I only was able to place all shots guaranteed inside a black circle from 25m, and it wasn't the worst result in my team. I have very weak arms. Had to stand for hours holding loads on stretched arm. I don't even remember if Margolin has auto-cocking, we cocked it before the first shot.
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ok boroda.. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to realize that you have never shot an American made revolver. I will also admit that I have never used one in sub zero climates.
I will also assume that you never shot handguns enough to really get to know what they do.
I will have to think all these things to explain how you think the way you do.
The gap on US and other revolvers is about .002-.004"... I have never heard of any gun expanding so much that it locked up... we have some cold states... wouldn't all the metal... including the frame expand and the clearances stay about the same?
I have never heard that the old top break smith russian had problems with locking up in your country... and it used filthy old black powder.
Your dad never took shots at 100 yards with a handgun? that seems odd... here... we do it all the time just for the hell of it. We have several competitions where handguns are used out to 300 yards... it is not a big deal.
As for double action... the fastest man here with double action shoots 6 rounds in about a fifth of a second and hits a man sized target... our revolver competitions involve mostly double action shooting.. we have not had single action target shooting here since the 50's.. why bother?
American double actions are smooth and... to tell the truth... many here shoot as well or better using trigger cocking than not. I am old fashioned but even so... I can do will with a good double action.
Oh... my K22 smith was made in the 1930's and it was guarenteed to shoot 1' groups at 50 yards.
As for shooting.. I shoot both from sandbags and standing. I shoot from sandbags to sight in guns and test ammo... I shoot standing or prone or sitting the rest of the time... it matters not tho shooting at a man sized target at 100 yards with a gun that is sighted in... childs play.
At the armory in sac (gun store) they had 5 nagants... all were under $125... not a single one was "rusty" and not a single one had a double or single action trigger that was even in the "acceptable" range... and...
not one had welded up sights... I have never seen one that was tuned or welded or had a good trigger sooooo... I have to assume that this was never done for the servicemen.
As for stopping power and handgun usefulness... maybe our guys are a little more familiar with firearms but.. we have always issued handguns with good stopping power (except for minor flirtations with the 38 colt) and... we have some good records of .45's being used by service men to kill multiple opponents with one shot each.
If you are going to carry a sidearm... it should have some power.. If you are going to carry a single action with a crummy trigger and sights...
You would have been much better off with the webley... it was a caliber that would stop a man and it was 100 times faster to load than the silly nagant.
I shot a webley converted to 45 acp (fairly common here) at a 4' target at 400 yards in nevada... just for fun of course... you know fun? like drinking only without the blur?
The first shot with all the sight and half the barrel was about 200 feet low but on line. The rest I simply kept aiming higher... like at the mountain range in the background.. finally at clouds.. did hit it eventually... You could do it too if you worked at it. You might not want to try it with the nagant...you would not be able to see the bullet strikes with that tiny little 100 grain bullet.
It was a crap gun.. only decent if you are to compare it to other soviet guns of the time but...
Knowing that all soviet handguns were a short range proposition... there is no soviet semi auto that I would not rather take into combat than the nagant.
They are all more powerful and plenty accurate for close work. They can all be reloaded without calling a time out.
lazs
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Laz, one more time. When Nagant was chosen, it was Tsar Russia, not soviet.
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One foot groups at 50 yards? So how are you going to hit anything at 100m?
About temperature expansion - it was just a guess out of my head.
Nagant drawing with English captions: http://alex---1967.narod.ru/waffe/437514_vzr_shem_nagan.JPG
You see, there is nothing too complicated, gas seal is implemented, i'll say, elegantly. If you tune it properly - it will probably be just a little heavier on the trigger then "traditional" revolvers.
Only 44 parts. Soldier's steel helmet has 32 parts.
The problem here is that you almost always have to work on everything with a file. Regulating a trigger force is one of the basic things, it's quite personal. Father said that shooting at 50m they had something like shneller on customized Nagants. And single action only.
There was a Soviet joke: Americans stole blueprints for newest Soviet jet-fighter, tried to assemble it according to drawing, and what they got was a railway steam-engine... They tried 3 times with the same result, and then kidnapped a Soviet engineer, Bauman uni graduate, he looked at the blueprints and laughed: "You see a small note here? After assembly - finish with a file!". BTW it was a genre of jokes about Americans kidnapping Soviet engineers to explain something :)
Nagants were produced with at least three types of sights, back sight V-shaped, square and semi-circular. Front sight also had different shapes.
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russian... yes, I knew that but.. the soviets kept the damn thing for decades.
boroda... you know someone who went to Texas and then moved back to russia.. that is the most amazing thing in the thread..
Oh.. on the K22 I meant 1" groups at 50 yards not one foot... sorry.
A "little heavier on the double action"?? you would have to tell me what you meant by a "little" everyone I have ever tried was a monster. the truth is simply that it was a crap revolver that solved no problems but created new ones...
Why even have double action (it came in single action only at first) if you don't intend to use it? as for the sights... yeah.. it came 3 different ways... all of em crap.
Look... I like all guns and especially handguns.. I would own a nagant.. they are dirt cheap here with little or no appeal but.. the ammo is very expensive and not reloadable in any real way.
It is also one of the most impotent rounds you can fire... About the only thing weaker is a .25 auto and no one shoots them.
It also has crap sights and double action... any work to fix those things take away from it's historical value.. as a shooter in historical trim...it has no value.
So far.. the above has made it pretty much worthless for me.. for most everyone too as the bargin basement prices for them will indicate.
lazs
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Prices for ammo are dropping due to Russian factories restarting manufacturing process. So far I see 50 for 22$. I expect that to drop once more people buy cheap piece of history.
Today I went to a store to sign paperwork and got to touch my new toy. The pull on a trigger is not 9kg. It's about same as .44Mag S&W Long barrel that I keep under the bed. The gun itself seems to be brand new with manufacture day of 1931. Now I need to wait 10 days :rolleyes:
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boroda... here is an article on long range handgun shooting that shows what I am talking about.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/shot_022305/
You will note that the guns used are semi autos not normally considered for long range work... the calibers are also relatively weak so far as long range shooting with handguns is concerned. Any good .357 or 44 mag revolver would do much much better... even a 45 colt... not to mention some of the new and more powerful revolver rounds like the 454, 460, 480 and the insane 500 smith and wesson.
The point is that every one of those weak calibers in defensive semi autos could hit man sized targets out to 200 yards... revolvers routinely double that distance.
It mentions a fact that I had almost forgotten.. the cops used to practice at 50 yards back when they were issued .357 revolvers.
russian... I think you need to put a trigger scale on those guns... my smith is about 8lbs double action and about 3.5 single as is my ruger 44... ruger might be 4 lbs single but has a better double action. I think you will find that the nagant is about twice that.
As for ammo prices... I reload.. it costs me about $4.50 a box of 50 to reload the 44 mag or 45.. factory 45 ammo is about $12 a box... 44 mag... high as $30.
The nagant stuff is not reloadable... you will never see it much less than $20 a box... that is a lot of money to shoot such a weak caliber and... I hate throwing away brass. I have heard that you can get a cylinder for the nagant that will allow it to shoot .32 auto rounds. they will cut the cost of shooting the gun in half.
I only shoot one gun in .32 the walther PPK... it is an ok gun to shoot but I won't bother to reload the tiny .32 ammo.. I don't shoot it enough to matter in any case.
Same for my makarovs.. I buy the cheap russian ammo by the thousand at about $6 a box (maybe $9 now) I don't shoot them much.
The guns I shoot are the .45's and 44 mags. I reload for them and get a lot of bang for the buck. I know that out to about 200 yards I have a good chance of scaring the hell out of anything I can see. They are accurate and cheap to shoot and the 44's are very powerful. very versatile caliber...
I can load the 44 to mild 1000 fps loads that still have 3 times the energy of the nagant or... to 1400 fps hand smackers that will have a half a ton of energy.
oh... old guns are better as they age if taken care of.. my old smith K22 has a 2 lb single action... many shooters fire it by accident while trying to get on target even after being warned.. as a gun is used the parts wear in... this is pretty much what a gunsmith does to new guns to "tune" them.. he stones the rough places.. maybe takes a tad off the sear notch for less creep..
you can do the same thing by shooting the gun for a decade or three of... dry firing the thing for a few hours a day for a couple of months. I have a trigger scale and you would be amazed at the horrible triggers that come from the factory these days...
To be fair.. some of it is fear of liability..."accidents" they will get sued for. Some is because of new systems like the glock.. lots of creep is normal. Others... like dan wesson and kimber and wilson and such...come with under 4 lb triggers that break like a glass rod. sweet.
lazs
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And again: I don't pretend that I am even a mediocre pistol shooter, and, due to historical reasons (:)) I didn't have an opportunity to shoot as many gun types as you, Lazs.
I look at Nagant as a piece of very smart and elegant engineering. And this revolver has a unique historical background. It has some disadvantages, like reloading system, but the general idea is brilliant.
The choice of the cartridge was made because Army wanted to switch to unified caliber, like 4.2 lines with Berdan/S&W. And the cartridge probably can't be made any longer for obvious reasons. Anyway it kills at 50m, that' enough.
Nagant came in two versions from the very beginning, single-action "soldier's" and double-action "officer's". The reason for "soldier's" version was a belief that a soldier will shoot all 7 rounds too fast and then become unarmed. The funniest thing about it is that single-action version was more expensive... After the Revolution only officer's Nagant stayed in production.
Shooting a handgun at 200m or more is insane. Even APS that has sights marked up to 200m has a detachable wooden butt/holster.
8lbs = over 3.6kg trigger load!? And you still prefer shooting double-action? I am sure your revolver hero has much smaller trigger force, he took some time and tuned his gun :)
I'll try to find you a better Nagant drawing, so you'll see it's far from being overcomplicated, and gas - seal shouldn't give any significant extra load on the trigger.
There is a certain difference between "cylinder gap" and tolerances I mentioned. Hard to explain it in foreign language, it was hard for me even in Russian :) I can't find most of the terms even in polytechnical dictionary.
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borada... yes.. I can see where you might not have had much experiance.. but... like your theory about cold weather making a conventional revolver useless.. the idea of the nagant being brilliant is wrong also.
I hope you read the article... believe me.. there are plenty on this BB who could do as well or better.
It was a bad idea with no real reason to exist.. it limited the power of the gun and did nothing for velocity except maybe 50fps which is nominal and at the cost of using a sub caliber round and complex ammo.
The trigger pull is so bad because it has to move the cyl forward.
The 8 lb trigger pull on modern double action revolvers is not as bad as it sounds.. it is very smooth and breaks crisply.. I can't explain this.. you would need to feel it yourself.. for a comparison... I would guess that the nagant had a 6 lb single action... most people really can't tell till they try guns with good triggers.
As for the nagant needing to be the way it was because of manufacturing tolerances... if you can't make a revolver with a .002-.004 cyl gap and a hand and cyl stop that index the cyl and barrel to within a couple of thousands... you could not make ball bearings... you could not build rifles or rifle any weapon... the tolerances could never have been an issue.
As for "killing at 50 meters" I doubt that the nagant could be relied on to kill at point blank except for the shot to the back of the head of a kneeling prisoner... At 50 yards... the remaining energy would be so poor that even thick clothing or gear would stop the bullet. The energy is about like a .32 auto round..
While 32's have done their share of killing... they have done far more of their share in wounding... worse.. they wound without the person being shot even knowing he was shot till much later. By then... he has run you through with his bayonet.
I would not want a nagant for a service arm.. there is no soviet pistol that I would not rather use as a service weapon... the old smith russian would still be my first choice for stopping tho.
But.. as I said.. it is a strange and interesting curio... much like the webley forstenr (however that is spelled) you know.. the automatic revolver?
They have much in common... both guns are interesting and complicated solutions to non existent problems and both are relegated to the "have a good chuckle" pile of firearms history.
lazs
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Just one thing before I go to bed, will have to work early tomorrow.
Originally posted by lazs2
As for the nagant needing to be the way it was because of manufacturing tolerances... if you can't make a revolver with a .002-.004 cyl gap and a hand and cyl stop that index the cyl and barrel to within a couple of thousands... you could not make ball bearings... you could not build rifles or rifle any weapon... the tolerances could never have been an issue.[/B]
First ball-bearings were produced here only in the 30s, IIRC. On imported equipment. No ball-bearings made here before that.
Lasz, you just have no idea of how backwards my country was before the Revolution. By 1914 less then 2% of the population worked in industry. I mean - all industry from textile to metallurgy. Only about one out of ten was literate.
Frankly speaking I envy you guys. "Tolerances could never have been an issue" - maybe in some other place. Looks like you don't read my posts at all.