Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Charlie on October 12, 2007, 09:43:24 AM
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my squad has a monthly DA going and there are about 3 guys I cant beat. They seem to have better ACM tactics than me. Right now we are fighitng the hurri Mk1 and these guys jsut seem to always outturn me and I am no sllouch when it comes to furballing.
Is there an AH website that explains how the physics in AH work for furballing/turnfight etc?
cheers
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There are a couple of AH sites you can check out:
http://www.netaces.org/
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/
Here are a few good books:
In Pursuit ( This is available as a free download if you can find it.)
http://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Pilots-Guide-Online-Combat/dp/9197607703/ref=pd_bbs_4/105-9141142-6473232?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192200741&sr=8-4
and of course the "Bible":
Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering
http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599/ref=sr_1_1/105-9141142-6473232?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192200848&sr=1-1
Hope this helps
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Furballing is a whole different animal than real ACM in 1 on 1 fights.
All you can do is practice, practice and practice some more. You also need very good gunnery skills in a Hurri 1. Meaning you need to know what parts of the plane to target and be able to stay on their six with a good shot long enough to kill the other plane.
Add to that you are flying equal planes, meaning his plane has the capacity to do everything yours can. So it really comes down to any E advantage and pilot skills. Pilot skills only come with lots of practice.
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Ahhh, the ACM. ACM is what the people that don't know how to fight refer too. They know ACM very well. They can name every single one of them and explain it to you really well, but they have no idea when to use what.
Assuming your stall limiter is off,
it does not matter what the maneuvers are called. It does not matter if know what they are and how to perform them. The reason is that you cannot plan a fight. You cannot decide in advance that you will do an imel and then a yoyo and then boom you are in the tower wondering what happened since you performed those maneuvers correctly.
What you need to do is practice and learn to react to your opponent. Knowing ACM is only a start and it is only good as a reference to know what is available. If you think about it, every time you move your stick you are performing some kind of ACM. It may not a have a name, but it is an ACM.
So, practice how to get an angle on the bad guy. Figure out where his plane is going to be in a few seconds and get yours pointing there at the right time. Once you figure it out, you will find that you are actually using one of those ACMs in order to beat him. The name does not matter and it does not work the other way around. You cannot decide in advance what ACM you will use.
I guess what I am saying is, reading about it is almost a waste of time. Its a good reference, but you will only learn by practice
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Maneuvers mean nothing. Interpreting energy is much more important and knowing when to go high or low beats the perfect immelmann or other stunt. Keep your eye on the bandit and act ahead of his moves instead of behind them. If he starts to pull a breaking maneuver play it smart and hold your advantage to engage once again when you are ready and not him.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Ahhh, the ACM. ACM is what the people that don't know how to fight refer too. They know ACM very well. They can name every single one of them and explain it to you really well,
Those are called BFM (basic fighter maneuvers)
but they have no idea when to use what.
Using BFM as building blocks for your tactics vs an opponent {knowing when to use what is exactly what, is ACM (Air Combat Maneuvering) is all about!}
So, practice how to get an angle on the bad guy.
Robert Shaw says "the angles tactician has two choices, turn harder or turn smarter." One can practice, practice, practice, and by process of elimination figure out what "turn smarter" means. OR one can study or train a bit to pick up some general rules on what "turning smarter" is to skip that process of elimination part. Then they can practice execution and application of the tactics, rather than flying around blindly for cod knows how long trying to figure out what not to do.
Originally posted by Chalenge
Maneuvers mean nothing.
Again, maneuvers by themselves are called BFM
Interpreting energy is much more important and knowing when to go high or low beats the perfect immelmann or other stunt.
...is exactly what ACM is about. It kind of helps pass that information along if one has a clue what I am talking about when I say that if you see your opponent doing X [insert BFM] you can counter that and gain angles by doing Y [insert BFM]. Stop by the TA and any one of the trainers would be happy to demonstrate that.
Charlie, Spatula & Rolex are on your side of the globe. I suggest trying to hook up with one of them to get some pointers on where you could improve your tactics. Carwash gave you some good references if you're in the mood to read :)
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I've said it enough that some of these guys are probably getting sick of hearing it, but there are always new voices in the crowd -- so I'll say it again.
Some people are gifted sim pilots, who seem to "get it" without hardly trying. I am NOT one of them. I love WW2 aviation, and I love the feel of a good fight...chess plus adrenaline, with a shot of historical immersion! But doing it on my own, I hardly improved. Same mistakes, same results, same frustration, over and over for months -- all because I insisted I could do it myself. What I failed to realize is this: Since this is a simulation of air combat, and since real men have risked very real lives doing air combat for almost a hundred years, enormous creativity and intellect have been spent on understanding it and doing it better.
In short, it's dumb to do it on your own. And, those who think they HAVE done it on there own have just learned it a different way, from other players instead of study and training. No one of us is smart enough to invent an entire scientific discipline on our own.
So my advice is to seek tips whenever you can. That may mean training time, or it may mean asking a squaddie what you're doing wrong. For a long time now, when a vet I know is a "good guy" rips my plane apart, I'll PM a "good fight -- any tips on what I did wrong?" If I have a fight that didn't go well, and I don't know why, I'll snip out a couple minutes and send it to someone I respect to ask for insight. And through my long slow path, the Trainers have been simply excellent resources and tremendous helps.
Don't expect a step by step manual to success (and I think that's what Dedalus was trying to say). Instead, expect to pick up concepts you'll adjust and apply to many different situations. No two fights are the same, and the challenge never goes away -- its been the best hobby I've ever had.
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Hey Murdr,
"..is exactly what ACM is about. It kind of helps pass that information along if one has a clue what I am talking about when I say that if you see your opponent doing X [insert BFM] you can counter that and gain angles by doing Y [insert BFM]. "
Maybe it is because of the way I fly or think, but I don't think that works. When I fight someone I keep looking at him and I constantly adjust what I am doing. I am not thinking what move I should use to counter him and I don't really care what it was called. This is what I was talking about in my post. You cannot approach a fight like that. You cannot say he did X therefore I will do Y. There are a lot more variables in that equation. However, they are a good starting point for someone new.
At the end, it is even simpler than that. Bud guy goes up, you want to be below. Bad guy goes down, you want to be above. How you get there at the right E states is the hard part. Thats where training or practice comes in.
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Are you flying with the throttle wide open all the time?
If you are. dont.
Learn to work your throttle
Just like a good racecar driver doesnt always have the pedel to the metal. Neither should you.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Hey Murdr,
"..is exactly what ACM is about. It kind of helps pass that information along if one has a clue what I am talking about when I say that if you see your opponent doing X [insert BFM] you can counter that and gain angles by doing Y [insert BFM]. "
Maybe it is because of the way I fly or think, but I don't think that works. When I fight someone I keep looking at him and I constantly adjust what I am doing. I am not thinking what move I should use to counter him and I don't really care what it was called. This is what I was talking about in my post. You cannot approach a fight like that. You cannot say he did X therefore I will do Y. There are a lot more variables in that equation. However, they are a good starting point for someone new.
At the end, it is even simpler than that. Bud guy goes up, you want to be below. Bad guy goes down, you want to be above. How you get there at the right E states is the hard part. Thats where training or practice comes in.
first - in real time fights thinking is just a concept.what murdr is talking about is training one to see then know what to do. the brain thinks alot faster then we can realize it does therefore if u train your mind to think about what u see it can do the thinking alot quicker then u can think. the idea is to train to reconize what u see and to get to know what ACM is effective against it so that u can do it. the training starts with talking and showing then as time goes along the thinking out loud is replaced by the unheard thinking and thus the feeling of it becoming second nature.
second - if all ur doing is reacting to what they are doing then 2 things will happen he will fly to his advantage and u will allow him too. the one that is in control is the one that will win a fight.
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I think one needs to combine both what AKAK and Dedalos said.
If I drop in one someones 6 with a ton of smash, I will send a burst into him and if that doesn't do the job, I will most likely transition into a high yo-yo (ACM) that will prevent the overshoot into his guns and at the same time slow me down so that when I exit the yo-yo I will again be behind him ... or hope to be.
How to describe to someone how to do a high yo-yo, I have no clue. I could not give you a step by step list of inputs that one does to do a high yo-yo ... but I do it.
If I am in a close knife fight or a rolling scissors / vertical scissors ... I don't even think about specific stick / rudder inputs or I need to perform this "ACM". I just have hands and feet moving like mad trying and put my plane where I think it needs to be. I could be performing some named "ACM" ... and if I am ... I have no clue as to what it would be called. I just want to put my plane here to get the angle there or put my plane there to get a guns solution.
It's like driving a car ... when I take a left/right hand turn, I don't think about my hands on the wheel and my feet on the brakes ... I just do it ... I think thats what Dedalos is talking about.
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Originally posted by 332nd outlaw
if u train your mind to think about what u see it can do the thinking alot quicker then u can think.
Hmmmm ... let me think about that ... ;)
Is that a quote from Yogi Berra ? ... like
" You can observe a lot by watching "
" If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be "
On why NY lost the 1960 series to Pittsburgh " We made too many wrong mistakes"
Just playing with ya ... :aok
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"cognitive and sub-conscience"
My $0.02
There are a few different ways human beings learn and process information.
Im going to generalize here a little bit. (ok alot:)
Learner #1
Learns instinctively..... Basically makes good decisions the first time out. These decisions become sub-conscience right away (probably already are) allowing this type to just do-it without thinking cognitively. Most of the time this type will learn the definitions later (if at all).When they do sometimes you will hear them say. "Your just able to explain what I can do naturally" or "so that's what that move I do is called" "this stuff is easy to learn"
Learner #2 Can't picture "the big picture" of what is going on. There fore can't understand it. This type have to have the movie broken down into little cognitive pieces. They then turn them into pictures and then build the "big picture" The big picture is when it becomes a "movie" in their brain or "sub-conscience". Sometimes they say " I just can't get my head around it"
#1 has a hard time slowing down long enough to explain to themselves and #2 what each piece of the big picture is.
#2 has to dig in and research piece by piece.
Look at the posts in here and look at the predicates people use. The ones that have a hard time learning normally do not use visual predicates.
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Originally posted by dedalos
You cannot approach a fight like that. You cannot say he did X therefore I will do Y.
Yes, you can. But that only applies as long as he is doing "X". If he does 1/4X and then changes to Z, then do I continue to do Y? No I adjust my tactics. So we are saying the same thing here except you are just "doing" without putting any lables on it. Which is fine.
Let me put this in other terms:
Charlie: Id like resources to help my golf swing
Carwash: Check out these links, there is a good article on adjusting your grip
Dedalos: Hit the driving range. That stuff is a waste of time.
Murdr: Suggest you get with your local pro for a lesson, (and check out carwash's links too if you want), then hit the driving range.
What I saw when looking at this thread was the thread starter asking for resources to better understand things. I also saw replies effectively saying "don't worry about that, you don't need that". I agree that one does not have to know the names of maneuvers to make them work. I learned, without a name for what I was doing at a given moment, or even why it works, but just by looking at the positions I *knew* what to do next. As in where I needed to be, and how to get there. However, that is not what the thread starter asked for. And...pure trial and error instinct flying is not the ONLY way to learn.
There is nothing wrong with just going out and practice, practice, practice, until you get it right. However if one does not have the 'knack' for picking up the concepts quickly that way, there is also nothing wrong with having someone, or some resource to point you in the right direction while you practice.
Where knowing individual BFMs by name comes into play is when you are trying to communicate about ACM concepts with others. Now I wish I had some intermediate/advanced training session films on hand to post. But Simaril, WWM, Sethbag, and many others can attest that I can give a running realtime play by play dialog of what's happening in a fight, and what the results are going to be. It seems to be more productive than just turning until someone gets shot and letting them guess what lead to that result. In most cases it is a combination of factors, and not just one thing, but often there is a key mistake involved.
Here again, I am not saying that is the ONLY way. I know it is not. However, if someone wants to go the route of understanding the theory behind what they want to learn to perform, I think it's a poor answer to tell them it is a "waste of time".
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What amazes me is how many guys with years of experience who come back to the TA because they feel they've hit a road block. What amazes me more is how many say, "Wow, I never knew that" or "that's why I keep dyin"
Point of fact...
You can practice until you're blue in the face but if you've never been around a dogfight and "seen" the actual maneuver as it's performed in a tactical situation then you will probably eventually get it...maybe. It might also take you a few years. Then again you may never get it.
There's an old saying that "there's no substitute for stick time". Correctly coined the term is "there's no substitute for quality stick time".
BFM and ACM are the building blocks of flying and fighting. The time it takes to learn them is realtively short given some quality time with someone who can show you how to execute them correctly for a given situation.
There is a very well qualified training staff who can provide quality stick time. There are also vets who come into the TA from time to time and will help you.
Take advice for what it's worth. If someone tells you that you don't need to learn to dogfight and that you will eventually pick it up then they may be correct. Given enough years and alot of frustration. What might be a little more concrete help is there are people around specificially to help you get better. Read all you can on the subject then spend some quality stick time learning to put all the good reading to use.
Back to your original question of physics...this might help answer it:
If the planes physical characteristics are modelled to show a difference in handling between the different models then those differences will have both positive and negative effects in a dogfight. Reading into that let's say the one plane has a tighter turning radius than another or can hold it's energy a little better in a steep or shallow climb than another. Those are plane differences which help you dictate how the fight will be fought.
However, you say there real issue is you fly the same planes but your squadmates are doing a better job of it. This takes away the differences in the plane types and enters the realm of understanding tactics (ACM) and being able to use them effectively. Here's a typical example, if you are both in the same plane and your squadie comes at you for a merge. He breaks hard left in an oblique offset high for a pitch back in a lead turn. You already saw he rolled offset in the lead turn as you flash by you also see he's in the hard left break back to your 6. You're in the same plane. For him to come around hard in a 180 degree turn he's going to be bleeding E. If you immediately begin a low G left turn 90 degrees you just forced him to increase his turn to a hard 270 degrees yet you barely burned off any E. If you let him continue around then begin a gentle climb he will continue to bleed E. As he tries to close just turn left another 90 degrees and continue to climb. His E loss rate increases dramatically yet you are still in a gentle climb. Begin a turn to the left and you will end up on his 6 as confirmed by his going from behind your 3-9 line to in front of it. Drop in and feed him some lead. You don't break a sweat and he's back in the tower.
The example shows how you take a fairly neutral merge using simple tactics to force him to burn his E and he either breake the engagement with you in command or ends up in the tower.
Is this a tactical response to an opening move as Murdr also mentioned?
Without a doubt.
Hope this helps.
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Originally posted by Charlie
my squad has a monthly DA going and there are about 3 guys I cant beat. They seem to have better ACM tactics than me. Right now we are fighitng the hurri Mk1 and these guys jsut seem to always outturn me and I am no sllouch when it comes to furballing.
Is there an AH website that explains how the physics in AH work for furballing/turnfight etc?
cheers
Just google "Defensive Combat Manuevers" and "Combat manuevers".
Some very interesting stuff out there.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Yes, you can. But that only applies as long as he is doing "X". If he does 1/4X and then changes to Z, then do I continue to do Y? No I adjust my tactics. So we are saying the same thing here except you are just "doing" without putting any lables on it. Which is fine.
Let me put this in other terms:
Charlie: Id like resources to help my golf swing
Carwash: Check out these links, there is a good article on adjusting your grip
Dedalos: Hit the driving range. That stuff is a waste of time.
Murdr: Suggest you get with your local pro for a lesson, (and check out carwash's links too if you want), then hit the driving range.
OK, it probably came out the wrong way trying to answer several posts at once. I think Slap got what I was trying to say. I am not saying to not ask for training or read or train with a trainer. Looking at the quote above, I think a better description of what I am saying is:
Dedalos: Hit the driving range with your laptop and an expert.
Looking at the links or talking to an expert alone will be a waste of time if you dont try it. However, if you try you may figure it out. Anyway, I think you need all three. I was trying to explain that reading about ACM will not do it alone. You need training/practice.
Here is an example. I got jumped by a high 0 while in a 202. I did not last long but being the smart arse that I am I made a coment about him BnZ in in a 0. He offered to help me learn ACM in the DA so I went :D
The guy got on vox and explained every maneuver he was doing. I was dieing laughing because I would wait until he would name the ACM before I would make him blow up. He is the perfect example of what I am talking about. He knew every single one of them. He knew the name and how to perform them, yet they were useless to my flat right turn.
Anyway, i hope that clears it up a little. I will stand by this though. If you try, even without any reading, you may figure it out. Reading is good and it may excelerate things but not by match. Unless you are reading about the 'strategy' of the fight. After all, half of it is making the other guy guess wrong.
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Originally posted by 332nd outlaw
first - in real time fights thinking is just a concept.what murdr is talking about is training one to see then know what to do. the brain thinks alot faster then we can realize it does therefore if u train your mind to think about what u see it can do the thinking alot quicker then u can think. the idea is to train to reconize what u see and to get to know what ACM is effective against it so that u can do it. the training starts with talking and showing then as time goes along the thinking out loud is replaced by the unheard thinking and thus the feeling of it becoming second nature.
I know what he is saying. We are almost saying the same thing. Practice and training are the same thing to me. I think thats where the misunderstanding is.
second - if all ur doing is reacting to what they are doing then 2 things will happen he will fly to his advantage and u will allow him too. the one that is in control is the one that will win a fight.
I am not talking reacting defensively. Reacting to what he does. Change your approach to the fight every second based on the changes in his direction, e-states, etc. If you don't do that, you are fighting a different fight and not that guy :D Trust me on that. It works really well for me and if you think about it, it is what you do also. Simple example, you merge with a guy and you are thinking imel. However, the guy make a sallow left turn. Do you still imel or do you react to what he did and change your approach to the fight?
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Originally posted by Charlie
my squad has a monthly DA going and there are about 3 guys I cant beat. They seem to have better ACM tactics than me. Right now we are fighitng the hurri Mk1 and these guys jsut seem to always outturn me and I am no sllouch when it comes to furballing.
Is there an AH website that explains how the physics in AH work for furballing/turnfight etc?
cheers
Hi Charlie. As an answer to your question, i think carwash has given you a damn fine starting point. I thoroughly recommend getting a copy of Shaw's Fighter Combat. Best money ever spent.
Think someone mentioned in this thread, but i'll pseudo-paraphrase shaw: "The angles tactician has two options: either turn harder or turn smarter." In a neutral merge, and identical aircraft, the guy who out-turns you, will thereafter have less energy than you as they bleed more than you to get around. You can capitalise on this and i think Ren mentioned one possibility on how to exploit this fact. Turning faster doesn't always yield victory - remember this and you're 1/2 way there.
Of course there are several factors which can help your turn rate, if you want to get around faster than your opponent:
- speed. The guys who gets around inside the turn of the other is often the slower of the two (in classic dueling merge). Excess speed can be as bad as none. Learn to control your speed through throttle management and nose-up/down techniques and keep close to your aircrafts corner velocity. Don't forget flaps if your aircraft can get em out and they help not hinder your turn.
- angles/lead-turn. They may simply be starting their turn before you do. Learn to recognise the tell-tale signs of someone attempting to set you up with a lead-turn and counter them, or better yet, set them up for your own.
- stall limiter. If its on, turn it off! If you have been flying with it on, turning it off will give you a whole new challenge on avoiding accelerated-stalls, but once you're on top of that, you will be able to pull more deg/sec at any instance.
- ride those Gs!
I'm a kiwi, so our time-zones are a damn-near perfect match, so PM me and i'd be happy to help you out!
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nice userful links in here carwash thank you.