Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 1K3 on October 14, 2007, 02:33:23 AM
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Even wearing a seatbelt can't save you from this kind of accident...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx83Xdcwyns&mode=related&search=
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Video won't show without 'logging in'.
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No need to log on, its not an accident, its a stunt from a movie involving logs, trucks, cars, motorcycles, blood and the occasionial explosion.
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(http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07410/loginrequired.jpg)
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I got the same thing you did MrRipley but I think Coshy was telling you not to bother with it rather than it wasn't necessary.
Why to they call crashes caused by someone's mistake accidents? Accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time.
Mark
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Originally posted by Mark Luper
Why to they call crashes caused by someone's mistake accidents? Accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time.
BS.
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what exactly is the point of that film? why would someone make a film like that? the CGI effects we really well done, so I imagine there was a good deal of money spent on it.
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Originally posted by Mark Luper
I got the same thing you did MrRipley but I think Coshy was telling you not to bother with it rather than it wasn't necessary.
Why to they call crashes caused by someone's mistake accidents? Accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time.
Mark
+10
After going to thousands of collisions I've come to the conclusion that there are almost no real "accidents". The collisions are the result of inattention, excessive speed, failure to control speed, failure to yield, failure to stop and other demonstrations of negligence in the operation of a deadly weapon in public or around them such as in the case of a pedestrian wandering into traffic.
Other than an unforeseen mechanical breakdown or even an unfortunate blow out at a bad time, there is going to be a point where the human in charge of the vehicle did not operate it properly or did not take due care to avoid going into the vicinity of the vehicle when a collision happens.
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I think what Mark may have meant, correct me if I'm wrong, is that there are no unpreventable accidents. Cause and effect, undeniable.
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Whether it is an accident or not is not determined by the fact that someone is responsible, but by intent. If it wasn't intentional it's an accident.
ac·ci·dent (ăk'sĭ-dənt, -dĕnt') pronunciation
n.
1.
1. An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.
2. An unforeseen incident: A series of happy accidents led to his promotion.
3. An instance of involuntary urination or defecation in one's clothing.
2. Lack of intention; chance: ran into an old friend by accident.
3. Logic. A circumstance or attribute that is not essential to the nature of something.
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yep... you can pay attention and learn how to drive and thereby avoid 99% of the "accidents" or... you can just buckle up and hope for the best.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
yep... you can pay attention and learn how to drive and thereby avoid 99% of the "accidents" or... you can just buckle up and hope for the best.
lazs
When I buckle up it's to protect against those who aren't paying attention. That and the "man" who spends his day looking at my left shoulder for a belt.
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gshultz,
These are a more appropriate definition of the circumstances related to traffic collisions.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
neg·li·gence /ˈnɛglɪdʒəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[neg-li-juhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the quality, fact, or result of being negligent; neglect: negligence in discharging one's responsibilities.
2. an instance of being negligent: a downfall brought about by many negligences.
3. Law. the failure to exercise that degree of care that, in the circumstances, the law requires for the protection of other persons or those interests of other persons that may be injuriously affected by the want of such care.
–adjective 4. Law. pertaining to or involving a civil action for compensation for damages filed by a person who claims to have suffered an injury or loss in an accident caused by another's negligence: a negligence suit; a large negligence award.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This neg·li·gence (nìg'lĭ-jəns) Pronunciation Key
n.
The state or quality of being negligent.
A negligent act or a failure to act.
Law Failure to exercise the degree of care considered reasonable under the circumstances, resulting in an unintended injury to another party.
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This negligence
noun
1. failure to act with the prudence that a reasonable person would exercise under the same circumstances
2. the trait of neglecting responsibilities and lacking concern
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source - Share This
negligence [ˈneglidʒəns] noun
carelessness
Example: The accident was caused by the driver's negligence.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: neg·li·gence
Pronunciation: 'ne-gli-j&ns
Function: noun
: failure to exercise the degree of care expected of a person of ordinary prudence in like circumstances in protecting others from a foreseeable and unreasonable risk of harm in a particular situation; also : conduct that reflects this failure called also ordinary negligence simple negligence —compare ABUSE 2, DUE CARE, INTENT
NOTE: Negligence may render one civilly and sometimes criminally liable for resulting injuries.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: neg·li·gence
Pronunciation: 'ne-gli-j&ns
Function: noun
: failure to exercise the degree of care expected of a person of ordinary prudence in like circumstances in protecting others from a foreseeable and unreasonable risk of harm in a particular situation; also : conduct that reflects this failure called also ordinary negligence simple negligence —compare ABUSE 2, DUE CARE, INTENT
NOTE: Negligence may render one civilly and sometimes criminally liable for resulting injuries.
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Maverick, had Mr. Luper used the word "negligent" I might have agreed with him. He didn't. In either case there are accidents that are not the result of someone's negligence. They may be few and far between, but they happen. So Mr. Luper's statement that "accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time" is wrong in every sense.
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Originally posted by JB73
what exactly is the point of that film? why would someone make a film like that? the CGI effects we really well done, so I imagine there was a good deal of money spent on it.
It's from Final Destination 2. Basically a movie about some teenagers / 20 y.o.s evading death / trying not to die when it is their destiny.
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maverik, i'm assuming your disregarding wildlife collisions?
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Originally posted by lazs2
yep... you can pay attention and learn how to drive and thereby avoid 99% of the "accidents" or... you can just buckle up and hope for the best.
lazs
I buckle up and pay attention to how I drive. It's the other driver's lack of attention while driving that I buckle up for. At 10 y.o. our car was plowed into on the side I was sitting. The resulting collar bone breakage and concussion wasn't going to be prevented (probably), but my getting tossed around in the car would have.
There are too many people driving that simply should not be driving.
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Originally posted by JB73
what exactly is the point of that film? why would someone make a film like that? the CGI effects we really well done, so I imagine there was a good deal of money spent on it.
It was from the movie Final Destination 2 I think.
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Originally posted by vorticon
maverik, i'm assuming your disregarding wildlife collisions?
I'm talking about the vast majority of collisions that involve other traffic vehicles, fixed objects or pedestrians. Wildlife and their predilection for doing the absolutely wrong thing at the worst time fall under the category of out of the control of the operator, provided the operator was driving in a speed and manner prudent for conditions. IE, not speeding and so on.
gshultz,
Perhaps you didn't read this part of Marks post.
"Why to they call crashes caused by someone's mistake accidents? Accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time."
Look at the key words there, "caused by someone's mistake". That's not the description of an "accident" and it does not have to be intentional. If it was intentional it would be something else like aggravated assault, attempted homicide, intentional homicide but still not an accident.
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Originally posted by Viking
Maverick, had Mr. Luper used the word "negligent" I might have agreed with him. He didn't. In either case there are accidents that are not the result of someone's negligence. They may be few and far between, but they happen. So Mr. Luper's statement that "accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time" is wrong in every sense.
Splitting hairs don't you think?
We call them car "accidents" even though technically they are usually anything but that.
Most vehicle accidents are the result of people not adjusting their driving for the conditions, just plain ignoring common sense (Lack of sleep, driving under the influence, adjusting and playing with assorted new electronic gadgets, talking on the cellphone, eating, reading, reaching around to wack the misbehaving kids, putting on make up, etc.), not knowing traffic laws, or not paying attention to basic vehicle maintenance.
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Originally posted by Viking
BS.
Agreed
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Originally posted by Maverick
I'm talking about the vast majority of collisions that involve other traffic vehicles, fixed objects or pedestrians. Wildlife and their predilection for doing the absolutely wrong thing at the worst time fall under the category of out of the control of the operator, provided the operator was driving in a speed and manner prudent for conditions. IE, not speeding and so on.
gshultz,
Perhaps you didn't read this part of Marks post.
"Why to they call crashes caused by someone's mistake accidents? Accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time."
Look at the key words there, "caused by someone's mistake". That's not the description of an "accident" and it does not have to be intentional. If it was intentional it would be something else like aggravated assault, attempted homicide, intentional homicide but still not an accident.
Why do I have to repeat myself? Accidents are still accidents no matter if is is someone's fault or not ... as long as it is unintentional. The definition of the English word "accident" does not leave much for debate on this issue. See my second post in this thread. That someone should be punished for causing the accident does not change the fact that is was an accident.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Splitting hairs don't you think?
No. Using the correct meaning of the word. The notion that "accidents don't happen" is a misnomer.
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That which is unintentional is not necessarily an accident. Once again I'm going to direct you to the specific situation that Mark was talking and posted about that you are conveniently disregarding.
"Why to they call crashes caused by someone's mistake accidents? Accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time."
If an individual takes a bow and arrow outside and shoots blindly down the street hitting a person. Is that an "accident"? They did not intend to hit anyone but a person died.
Substitute slingshot, is it still an accident?
How about a firearm?
How is that different from driving a car into an intersction against a red light? Failing to stop a car in time and running into a stopped car at a red light because you are talking on a cell phone, or even drunk?
Each of those situations are examples of negligence, not accidents.
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Originally posted by Maverick
If an individual takes a bow and arrow outside and shoots blindly down the street hitting a person. Is that an "accident"? They did not intend to hit anyone but a person died.
Yes, that's an accident.
Originally posted by Maverick
Substitute slingshot, is it still an accident?
Yes.
Originally posted by Maverick
How about a firearm?
Yes.
You don't seem to understand that no matter how idiotic, unlawful or otherwise inept the actions of a person may be ... if the consequence of those actions are unintended they are by definition "accidents".
"Negligence" addresses culpability. "Accident" addresses intent.
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In other words, "if an individual takes a bow and arrow outside and shoots blindly down the street hitting a person", the individual in question would have caused an accident by the negligent use of a weapon and quite possibly made himself guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
Any clearer now?
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There is no intent in negligence, the definitions I posted made that clear. If there is intent to commit the act it isn't negligence, it becomes willful and then a criminal act.
In your rewrite of the bow situation he didn't create an "accident" he used the bow in a negligent manner and caused a death. Same situation in traffic where a death results from negligent action of the driver, hence the charge vehicular homicide also know in some areas as negligent homicide again without intent because the extent of the negligence was culpable. In the vast majority of moving traffic laws, intent is not a requirement.
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Perhaps that's how your justice system defines it, but we are not writing "legaleeze" here. We're writing English (preferably the Queen's English, but nobody's perfect ;)). Mr. Luper was not writing "legaleeze", he was writing in English. The word "accident" means an unintended consequence or incident ... nothing more.
Rocks fall ... Lightning strikes ... Accidents happen.
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Originally posted by Viking
Perhaps that's how your justice system defines it, but we are not writing "legaleeze" here. We're writing English (preferably the Queen's English, but nobody's perfect ;)). Mr. Luper was not writing "legaleeze", he was writing in English. The word "accident" means an unintended consequence or incident ... nothing more.
Rocks fall ... Lightning strikes ... Accidents happen.
Rocks fall, lightening strikes, those are accidents.
When you take control of a moving vehicle and don't operate it properly or maintain it properly and have a crash caused by the way you operated said vehicle or maintained said vehicle it is not an accident whether it was intended that way or not.
I will take that one step further and state that if you don't maintain your vehicle yourself you are still responsible for the state of maintenance it is in.
What it all boils down to is accountability for your actions or a lack thereof.
People like to call such crashes accidents because they do not want to be held accountable for their actions.
I hope I made myself clear on my meaning this time. Sorry for the confusion it seems to have caused. You may or may not agree with it. That is your prerogative.
Mark
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WOW!!! :eek: :O
WHAT a Hi-Jack!!! Wow... :eek: :O
I give it a 10/10... Both points were put across clearly, but I'm going to have to agree with the fact that there are no accidents, it's always SOMEBODY'S fault.
:aok
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Oh yea, and try this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao0RG64pfKs
I'm assuming it would be the same one...
Wow, the final destination series never really seizes to amaze me. Here's how they usually work. A group of high-schoolers hang out, and then one of them gets this HORRIBLE vision. Then, when they're done... the vision starts to actually happen.
The survivors of what happen, get killed in order of when they survived. Let's say you were the last person to get in the accident, and you survived. You would be the first to die from some random, deadly, un-preventable event.
It's your destiny... DON'T HIDE FROM IT!
I haven't seen this one, but I saw the third one. :D My mom didn't like it.
To keep this Hi-Jack on topic... I'm just going to say, the cause for this event, was, before the truck left, the trucker must not have tied the logs on right. The effect was......... This.
But don't let ME tell you, let the trailer talk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCygxisNzgg&mode=related&search=
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Another one that doesn't get that innocence or "not at fault" is not required for it to be an accident. I don't know what language you're trying to use, but it's not English.
Here's the insurance companies' definition:
'Accident' is an ambiguous term that can include at-fault, not-at-fault, reported and unreported collisions that you, as the driver, were involved in. It is a sudden fortuitous event. Often used to refer to a collision or insurance event. With road rage and other occurences that are creating granular definitions, some states are trying to add more legal language to the definition in order to make sure an accident is covered by an insurance carrier. It should be covered by an insurance carrier. Some states simply say it is an occurrence that is unexpected and unintended from the standpoint of the person who is injured.
You can break down an incident into these categories:
# "Violations" - Police involved occurrences where you were cited by law enforcement.
# "At Fault Accident" - Collision where you were negligent.
# "Not at Fault" - Collision where the other party was negligent.
# "Comprehensive Claim" - Reported and unreported collisions where you were involved.
Not at fault occurrences in which your parked vehicle was damaged in a collision also are considered accidents. You can find this and other definitions in the Car Insurance Larning Center at CarInsurance.com.
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As to the language used in this discussion, it is English. The dictionary quotes came from English dictionaries.
Accident an ambiguous term, yep I can go with that. That is why it's inappropriate for the vast majority of traffic collisions.
Insurance companies are not in the business of determining what or how it happened, just how little they will have to pay for their client's negligence.
Road rage wasn't a part of the discussion. You are reaching here trying to put criminal activity into a discussion it doesn't belong in. Road rage is very intentional and doesn't even fit your understanding of unintended.
Whether the collision is reported is immaterial, the negligent action has already occurred. Stupid is still stupid no matter if anyone puts it on paper or not. You do not need a ticket for negligent vehicle operation to have happened.
No fault insurance is a means that insurance companies have devised to cut the losses from their clients negligent driving. It just means that the driver at fault insurance company does not have to be responsible for their bad driving. The cost of the negligence is spread to the victims insurance as well.
You just misinterpreted what Mark was saying, now just admit it (or not) and go sulk.
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I'm not trying to "put criminal activity" into anything, but it seems you and others here are trying to put "negligence" into a definition where it doesn't belong. Namely "accident".
ac·ci·dent (ăk'sĭ-dənt, -dĕnt') pronunciation
n.
1.
1. An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.
2. An unforeseen incident: A series of happy accidents led to his promotion.
3. An instance of involuntary urination or defecation in one's clothing.
2. Lack of intention; chance: ran into an old friend by accident.
3. Logic. A circumstance or attribute that is not essential to the nature of something.
That's what accident means in the English language, and Mr. Luper's "there are no accidents" is very uncompromising and leaves little room for misinterpretation.
I don't intend to "go sulk" since I'm quite content with my position in this debate. However, I see you are acting emotionally.
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You need to come up with something different rather than merely repeat the same definition over again.
BTW Mark did not say there were no accidents. He specifically said crashes due to mistakes people make. Collisions by far are the results of negligent operation of a motor vehicle however unintentional. Again that is a part of the definition of negligence as well in both in common usage and legal terminology. There is a cause to the collision and the vast majority of it is due to the operator not complying with a law or exercising due care in the operation of the vehicle which is also covered by law. Of the ones I investigated there were very few that I could not determine who created it. Most of those was because either one or both sides were not telling me what really happened (IE red light & fail to yield) and there were no independent witnesses.
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Originally posted by Maverick
BTW Mark did not say there were no accidents. He specifically said crashes due to mistakes people make. Collisions by far are the results of negligent operation of a motor vehicle however unintentional. Again that is a part of the definition of negligence as well in both in common usage and legal terminology. There is a cause to the collision and the vast majority of it is due to the operator not complying with a law or exercising due care in the operation of the vehicle which is also covered by law. Of the ones I investigated there were very few that I could not determine who created it. Most of those was because either one or both sides were not telling me what really happened (IE red light & fail to yield) and there were no independent witnesses.
This is what he said:
Originally posted by Mark Luper
Why to they call crashes caused by someone's mistake accidents? Accidents don't happen, someone screws up somewhere down the line every time.
Mark
And it is a misnomer. Whether someone made a mistake or not is inconsequential to the meaning of the word "accident". As long as it is unintentional it is by definition an accident. Why is this so difficult to understand?
Originally posted by Maverick
You need to come up with something different rather than merely repeat the same definition over again.
It seems I have to. For some reason the definition of "accident" doesn't seem to sink in for some people.
ac·ci·dent
n.
1.
1. An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.
2. An unforeseen incident: A series of happy accidents led to his promotion.
3. An instance of involuntary urination or defecation in one's clothing.
2. Lack of intention; chance: ran into an old friend by accident.
3. Logic. A circumstance or attribute that is not essential to the nature of something.
You may disagree with this definition, that is your right ... However in doing you will only be confirming that while you are indeed speaking (well ... writing actually), you are not speaking English. And neither is Mr. Luper.
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Originally posted by Viking
You may disagree with this definition, that is your right ... However in doing you will only be confirming that while you are indeed speaking (well ... writing actually), you are not speaking English. And neither is Mr. Luper.
With this quote I leave you to your own private reality. I choose not to be there, I'd rather be where reality is what is, not what your delusion says it is.