Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: VonKost on October 16, 2007, 08:44:56 AM
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This is the second online subscription Second World War in the air game that I’ve been a part of. I’ve enjoyed them both very much, but there is still much room for improvement. The problems I have had with both online games is the fact that there is no motivation to act in a historic manner.
I’ve always wanted to see historic mission profiles and combats as a result of missions, not find and fight furballs. I guess I just don’t understand the logic of these arenas. Why not play quake if all you want to do is jump in and start shooting. These games have so much more potential. Why not have a European map that represents spring 1944 in the air, make bases un-cappable and score points for bombs delivered on target. Make the bomber mission the focus of this ToD, maybe people will actually have to plan something, arrange escorts, fuel loads and map routes! The Luftwaffe side would have to use their air controllers to vector their interceptors to the raids. You would still get massive furballs, but you would get them for the right reasons.
You could include the 9th air force with their medium bombers and ground attack aircraft. You could even make it so there can be an invasion and ground capable bases after June 6th. Why can’t we design the plane sets to develop over time with improved models coming into service at certain dates.
Is no one interested in this kind of play? I think it is the most rewarding play you can have. Separating the machines from the methods is a mistake. I Guarantee that people will remember a historic bomber raid much more than the next furball at 500 feet.
In a former game I planned and lead a historic mission based on the 97th bomb groups first B-17 raid on occupied Europe. We flew a historic mission profile to Rouen and it took a couple of hours to complete, but it was totally intense and very much had the “you are there” feeling. About 5 miles from the IP turn we got jumped by a few 190’s and 109’s who were making slashing attacks and using good tactics. We lost a few bombers and got 1 fighter and maybe damaged another, but our forts brought us home missing some parts and guns. This mission is 100 times more memorable then when I upped for a furball and got a bunch of kills and landed 5 minutes later.
So I challenge you all, where is the history?
Regards,
VonKost
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Special Events and CT are what you are looking for.
I would also like to see more Historical applications, but this game's MA was not designed for that. It was designed so that random Joe who can only play for 30 mins can actually get in a fight or two before he has to log.
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Originally posted by VonKost
So I challenge you all, where is the history?
Regards,
VonKost
I challenge you to click the CALENDAR (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/images/top_calendar.gif) button at the top of this very Forum.
This shows a list of the current Special Events that are run for Aces High.
I would point you in specific to the SnapShot's run on Wed. night and Thur. day. They are historically based events. This Wed. SnapShot is called "KILL THE ENGINES!"
Winter 1943
German scientist are working hard to produce the metals needed for engines to power the Me 262. Current engines are only good for 20-25 hours of use before necessitating a change-out. The OSS has provided Allied Leaders with intelligence suggesting that the work is being done at the radar facility near Marburg. Allied air groups are tasked with destroying this facility to halt production of the metals needed and the equipment for manufacture of the new engines.Axis Forces are expected to defend the facility to the fullest to protect production of the Me-262 engines.
The Thursday SnapShot is called "The Straffers".
Rabaul, like Truk, her sister citadel in the Carolines, was destined to be by-passed by our invasion forces, but would be completely cleared of all air and naval power in the process. There were many strikes carried out against Rabaul; the most bloddy of all probably being that of 2 November 1943. Intelligence reported Simpson Harbor to be packed with ships. General Kenney put nine B-25 squadrons (all straffers) and six covering squadrons of P-38 into the air and headed them out for Rabaul.
You would also quite love the Scenarios that are run every quarter. The current Scenario is called "Der Grosse Schlag"
It is November, 1944. The US 8th Air Force is exerting itself to its limits, sending enormous waves of escorted heavy bombers into Germany for wide-ranging strikes in an attempt to bring Germany to its knees. However, General Galland has gathered Luftwaffe resources and is focusing its remaining might, which is substantial. His goal is to inflict horrific losses upon the 8th Air Force, preferably enough to crack its resolve. His goal is to deliver “Der Grosse Schlag” -- The Great Blow.
If you are in a squad, you would also LOVE Friday Night Squad Ops. The current FSO is called "Operation Strangle".
Time Frame - March 1944
"Operation Strangle" was conceived by Allied commanders to reduce the flow of enemy supplies in Italy below requirements by attacking their supply system. It was determined that the enemy's abilities to supply, reinforce, and shift forces could be so weakened that the Gustav Line could neither withstand determined ground attacks nor withdraw in order.
Beginning in March, Allied Medium and Fighter Bombers struck targets from the Gustav Line to the Swiss frontier. While the Medium bombers wrecked marshaling yards and repair facilities, the Fighters and Fighter Bombers of the XII Air Support Command cut rail lines and bridges. The Fighter Bombers in particular, proved surprisingly successful as bridge busters.
Heavy Bombers borrowed from the air war over Germany hit distant rail centers in the northern Italian cities. This scrambled enemy troops and supplies from beyond the Alps, as trains stacked up north and south of Rome. No trains were able to run from the Po Valley, and substantially all supplies had to be moved by truck south of Florence.
A listing of the current events we offer can be found can be found at the AHEvents site found HERE (http://ahevents.org/)
You also might want to go a bit further down the BBS to Combat Tour. THIS is a totally new game being designed by HiTech Creations, and seem like it would be RIGHT up your alley.
Description of Combat Tour (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157903)
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VonKost HTC are working on "Combat Tour" which will pretty much involve everything you have suggested.
Also Lute has outlined the scenarios you can become involved in straight away.
I suggest you begin perfecting your flying/bombing skills in preparation for the release of combat tour.
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I am quite aware of the snapshots and special events. I've done the Friday night squad ops the last few weeks. I flew a fighter sweep with my squad in P-47's ( I even used the 57th FG skin) and it had a great real mission feel to it. I took an oil hit and had to ditch in the water on the way home, just like a lot of historic accounts. I enjoy these more than anything, but it's not enough. These events are so great, why aren't the other arenas modeled with this in mind?
Thanks for the responses so far.
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Originally posted by VonKost
where is the history?
It doesn't exist in the Main Arenas. Maybe the Special Events folks have the answer.
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Here's a brief overview of "Combat Tour", which is currently in closed alpha testing: http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=157903
Camo
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Originally posted by VonKost
So I challenge you all, where is the history?
There is none, and the very mention of it is bad for business.
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Originally posted by Hap
It doesn't exist in the Main Arenas. Maybe the Special Events folks have the answer.
Yes, but why design a WW2 air combat game and not reward/encourage historic performance. :rolleyes: The planes without the units an missions are not nearly as interesting.
Camo,
Looks good to me! need a tester or researcher for the project? Are there bomb units available for the bomber boys? Historic missions, aircraft, units and missions? What a novelty! :D
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I think you are looking for a different game
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Originally posted by VonKost
These events are so great, why aren't the other arenas modeled with this in mind?
Ever noted that even with the most successful of events, MA population is still higher (most of the time much higher) than SEA's ?
Not everybody is interested in the patience & discipline requiered for such kinds of events. The big advantage of the MA is that it is some kind of sandbox which allows for many different gamestyles and approaches to this game. Many people play to relax. Within the limited time they have, they just want to get up in the air and mix it up. Wanna fly a EW crate right into an enemy horde? Here you can do it.
I would even dare to say that even many participants in current scenario Der Grosse Schlag would be really upset if MA was modeled along that more historic and realistic lines.
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Purely historical action makes for really lousy gameplay. While this game does offer some events more closely aligned with the spirit of WW2 combat, by and large, most players wouldn't be intested if they only got a kill every 10 sorties, flew for several days without encountering any enemies, or couldn't play for 6 months to a year after being shot down.
"Realism" is a mixed bag.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
... most players wouldn't be intested if they only got a kill every 10 sorties....
Why do you still play?
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:mad:
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Originally posted by VonKost
Yes, but why design a WW2 air combat game and not reward/encourage historic performance. :rolleyes: The planes without the units an missions are not nearly as interesting.
Camo,
Looks good to me! need a tester or researcher for the project? Are there bomb units available for the bomber boys? Historic missions, aircraft, units and missions? What a novelty! :D
I can't answer for everyone, but I'd be willing to bet pretty much anything you could name that if they switched to MAs to a completely "historical" set-up you would loose 70%- 80% of the player base. Seeing as I'm sure HT is in this for the money, he knows what sells and has set up the game accordingly.
While I appreciate the history, and most likely spend too much time reading and watching documentaries, I would drop the game in an instant if it didn't have the MAs setup like they are. I have tried a number of senarios and such and they are just too slow and drawn out for me. The trill of the game..... for me.... is the fight. Give a few minutes to grab a bit of alt, and in I go !! Climbing to 30k, and running an escort mission for a group of buffs just isn't for me, nor quite a few other I'd guess.
I'll give CT a try WHEN it comes out, but I really doubt I'll spend much time there.
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If I'm logging in for 30 minutes to an hour I want to get some action, be it in the air or on the ground. I don't want to waste time in the tower waiting for my historically accurate two hour-long mission to take off and then have to take orders from some dweeb as to when, whom and how I can engage.
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Let's just think about the job of a real fighter pilots in WWII.
Long hours of abject boredom followed by seconds of stark terror!
Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me.
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The "history" is in the planes ... the planes are modeled to performs as close as possible to the real "historic" planes.
Everything outside of that (in the MAs - EW/MW/LW) is modeled to cause conflict in which these simulated "historic" planes can fight.
As other have pointed out, what you are looking for are in Snapshots/SEA/Combat Tour.
In the MAs ... feel free to create your own squad of pilots that want to fly in the same "historic" manner as you ... but putting that "historic" requirement on the current MAs ... HTC would go out of business and last I knew ... HT and company like to eat.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Purely historical action makes for really lousy gameplay. While this game does offer some events more closely aligned with the spirit of WW2 combat, by and large, most players wouldn't be intested if they only got a kill every 10 sorties, flew for several days without encountering any enemies, or couldn't play for 6 months to a year after being shot down.
"Realism" is a mixed bag.
Yeah ok, but I could cope with the smart uniforms and some "realistic" WAAFs.:)
VonKost, I think time is a problem. If I get an hour on line it's a treat. Not enough for a realistic mission. Maybe many others are in the same boat.
Regards,
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I'd like to see a specific forum room where WW-ll history can be discussed specifically by gentlemen. I believe the war was the most important single event in human history, besides the time that one bloody ape who thought walking upright had potential.
The bigger connection to the war in AH the better in my opinion. For many of us its the biggest reason we are here.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
I'd like to see a specific forum room where WW-ll history can be discussed specifically by gentlemen.
Good luck with that. Not with getting the forum. With the "where WW-ll history can be discussed specifically by gentlemen" part. You mean by those who post here?
:rofl
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Well, I already asked for it in the wishlist forum. I think it would be a fine addition to AH. And for the ones who like busting up threads with nonsense??? Thats what the ignore feature is for I guess. .
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DGS
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The absolute absence of participation in the AvA most nights speaks volumes about the desire of the community to fly in any way 'historically'.
Just my opinion.
I don't really care for the MA's like they are, but they're the best thing going so far.
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To me, the MA's are just a place to work on my skills (or lack thereof) in preparation for scenarios.
If you get a chance, come on as a walkon this Saturday at 3pm EST and fly in DGS. You can fly Axis or, if you don't mind getting shot down, as Allied :D
In all seriousness, the scenario has been great....sometimes boring, sometimes frustrating and sometimes thrilling. Most of the time you experience all three emotions. The Allies are trying everything they can to get their bombers through. The Axis are doing the same to try and save their homeland.
Try it...you won't be dissapointed, no matter what side you choose.
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Things that are most fun like scenarios, fso, and snapshots are that way for one reason. The human element. It takes someone, or a group of people many hours of work preparing the event...rules, historical setting, arena setup, recruitment etc. The MA is plug and play.
If you could hire a team to daily, provide players with the kind of gameplay events have, Im sure there would be people willing to do it. Unfortunately the sub cost would be more than 15 bucks a month.
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I think you're mistaking AH for what it's not.
It's a game, not a vehicle for re-enacting WWII battles.
It CAN be used to re-enact WWII battles. But that requires more time, discipline, etc. than most people are willing to put up with.
You ever see Civil War re-enactors? Sure, it may be interesting to re-enact what it must've been fighting a battle back in those days and you might be able to find a market for people willing to pay good money to do this. Throw in having to march to and from the battle field, having to eat crappy army rations or whatever you could scrounge or steal, being bit by mosquitos, sleeping in lousy tents and waking up to a piping hot cup of ersatz coffee not to mention the prospect of getting wounded and having to be ministered to in what passed for a field hospital back in those days and that market gets smaller and smaller. The more realistic you make something, the smaller the market. Small markets make for bad business.
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Originally posted by VonKost
...I enjoy these more than anything, but it's not enough. These events are so great, why aren't the other arenas modeled with this in mind?
Thanks for the responses so far.
It's been built, but they haven't come.
This game's designer has been involved in sims for almost 2 decades, and he's tried (or seen others try) just about everything. The "historical planes then add variants with time" appraoch, called a Rolling Planeset, has been tried before -- and even though it appeals to some, the majority of players don't like it.
As to "do more of it" -- remember that AH is a customer driven game SERVICE. It gives people the environment they want, and when allowed to choose the majority choose what we call the Main Arena. If HT tried to force them to play his way, they would likely find something else to play, becuase they like the freedom of things as they are.
I'ds suggest you change the perspectibve a little, and instead of saying "this game almost get it right, why can't they...." -- be thankful that in a world driven by the market, there is a corner that fits your paticular minority interest.
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I'ds suggest you change the perspectibve a little, and instead of saying "this game almost get it right, why can't they...." -- be thankful that in a world driven by the market, there is a corner that fits your paticular minority interest. [/B]
My thoughts exactly.
Multi-player on-line WWII flight simulations are a niche market. The markets for geriatric porn, vomit porn and bestiality porn are probably bigger AND more profitable for the vendor.
We actually have it pretty good.
The only way things could get better is if something happened to fuel the interest of the general public in realistic WWII flight simulations AND ween them off the cult of instant gratification that the more popular video games seem to cater to AND give everyone more free time in which to spend recreating hour long WWII missions.
This would help fuel demand for game companies to on-line WWII simulations with more realistic game experiences.
In other words, until a real market develops for this, it's not going tohappen. It's the same in every other business and it's the same for on-line video games.
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Been in the military. I didn't find it entertaining.
In real life, I'm responsible for organizing and managing 8 other people (and dealing with 5 other managers doing the same), day to day. I don't find this entertaining either.
I'm generally not interested in having my entertainment "organized and managed" in a historical manner. On occasion, I will join a scenario to see old friends. As far as I am concerned, if you want to be part of history, join the Marines. I understand they have immediate openings for a few good men. :D
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Originally posted by zarkov
Multi-player on-line WWII flight simulations are a niche market. The markets for geriatric porn, vomit porn and bestiality porn are probably bigger AND more profitable for the vendor.
Great idea...
Porn Stars High
Of course, folks would complain that HT over modeled the hooters. :D
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Brings new meaning to...
"check 6! You got a pony behind you!"
Now don't it? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by VonKost
I’ve always wanted to see historic mission profiles and combats as a result of missions, not find and fight furballs. I guess I just don’t understand the logic of these arenas. Why not play quake if all you want to do is jump in and start shooting.
My thoughts exactly, and the reason I don't play games like this any more. I can see what some of the guys here are saying - long hours of looking for "action" would drive most people away, but (and it's a very big but) you can only go so far in the other direction before arriving at quake-style gameplay. Scenarios might work, but you'd need to be on the right time zone. I never wanted to be playing scenarios at 4/5am in the morning.
A wise man once said on the board of one of the other games, at a time when people wanted super-realism, that WW2 was not fun, therefore the more REAL we make it, the further we'll get from FUN. But he also added that there was a limit to how far we could move away from REAL, before we stopped getting any nearer to FUN. And I think that's what you're seeing in AH. OK it's not a re-enactment of WWII (wasn't that what WW2OL tried to be?), it's just a game. Endless fighter v fighter furballs are about as far from WW2 as you could get, but does this make if more FUN? The fact that this thread got started at all tells me that at least some people think not.
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Originally posted by Bruv119
VonKost HTC are working on "Combat Tour" which will pretty much involve everything you have suggested.
Yeah, I hear it'll be here in 2 weeks as well :)
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But he also added that there was a limit to how far we could move away from REAL, before we stopped getting any nearer to FUN. And I think that's what you're seeing in AH. OK it's not a re-enactment of WWII (wasn't that what WW2OL tried to be?), it's just a game.
You've got a point - as it stands, the actual GAME part of the game (the overall game or meta-game as opposed to the flight simulation portion) is pretty weak.
It's just too chaotic. The designers would do well to look over at various generic wargames to see what they should be shooting for. For FUN you want to have the action be compressed, have people be able to jump in and out of the game, etc. - but there still needs to be an overall structure to the whole experience.
Most of the thought in the game seems to have focused on the "playing pieces", i.e. the planes instead of considering how the pieces interact or what their goals are or should be.
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Originally posted by VonKost
This is the second online subscription Second World War in the air game that I’ve been a part of. I’ve enjoyed them both very much, but there is still much room for improvement. The problems I have had with both online games is the fact that there is no motivation to act in a historic manner.
I’ve always wanted to see historic mission profiles and combats as a result of missions, not find and fight furballs. I guess I just don’t understand the logic of these arenas. Why not play quake if all you want to do is jump in and start shooting. These games have so much more potential. Why not have a European map that represents spring 1944 in the air, make bases un-cappable and score points for bombs delivered on target. Make the bomber mission the focus of this ToD, maybe people will actually have to plan something, arrange escorts, fuel loads and map routes! The Luftwaffe side would have to use their air controllers to vector their interceptors to the raids. You would still get massive furballs, but you would get them for the right reasons.
You could include the 9th air force with their medium bombers and ground attack aircraft. You could even make it so there can be an invasion and ground capable bases after June 6th. Why can’t we design the plane sets to develop over time with improved models coming into service at certain dates.
Is no one interested in this kind of play? I think it is the most rewarding play you can have. Separating the machines from the methods is a mistake. I Guarantee that people will remember a historic bomber raid much more than the next furball at 500 feet.
In a former game I planned and lead a historic mission based on the 97th bomb groups first B-17 raid on occupied Europe. We flew a historic mission profile to Rouen and it took a couple of hours to complete, but it was totally intense and very much had the “you are there” feeling. About 5 miles from the IP turn we got jumped by a few 190’s and 109’s who were making slashing attacks and using good tactics. We lost a few bombers and got 1 fighter and maybe damaged another, but our forts brought us home missing some parts and guns. This mission is 100 times more memorable then when I upped for a furball and got a bunch of kills and landed 5 minutes later.
So I challenge you all, where is the history?
Regards,
VonKost
As any of the folks who know me can tell you, I'm a history junkie and then some.
If you can't find the history every time you fly, you aren't looking hard enough :)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
If you can't find the history every time you fly, you aren't looking hard enough :)
Give that forked tailed Fubar a cookie!!!! :)
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Originally posted by toonces3
The absolute absence of participation in the AvA most nights speaks volumes about the desire of the community to fly in any way 'historically'.
Just my opinion.
Actually, it isn't just your opinion.
Many people want to fly their favorite plane. All the time.
Many people want to fly with their squad mates. All the time.
These two Great Truths throttle the historical combat arenas, of this game and of games of the past.
- oldman
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The excitement of flying long historic type missions is the ever present chance of a fight. The combat that happens in these types of mission is exponentially more intense because of what is invested to get there. Flying over the channel and into Holland and bouncing a fight of fighters or conversely getting bounced by 190's is a much greater experience then flying straight to a fight that is 10 miles away in a loose long string with everyone else in whatever the flavor of the month plane is.
The more real people involved, the more intense the game play is. We have all these wonderful aircraft, but we are doing them an injustice by playing the way we do. On the last Squad Ops Night I was having trouble getting my RPM setting to work and burning too much fuel. I was afraid of not making it back and my CO was coaching me through it. That whole situation was very intense and exciting. It could have been a chapter out of any of the dozens of WW2 biographies. These are the moments that make a game like this shine, not going out and killing 10 guys and augering like in the main arena.
I play for the glimpses and insights that are occasionally gleaned through these experiences, not for the constant nonsensical air battle over an un-named fictional splotch of airfield in one of the arenas.
(edited for spelling)
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Originally posted by VonKost
The excitement of flying long historic type missions is the ever present chance of a fight.
To many, yes. To a lot of people (not including me), the FPS style, 'Go, kill people, die, rinse, repeat' mentality is more prevelant. Keep that in mind.
". Flying over the channel and into Holland and bouncing a fight of fighters or conversly getting bounced by 190's is a much greater experience then flying straight to a fight that is 10 miles away in a loose long string with everyone else in whatever the flavor of the month plane is. "
Theres nothing stopping you from doing that. Go on a strat mission, or hit an airfeild in a buff. 190's are among the favorite interceptors, Im sure you'll find more than one that will hop on you.
"These are the moments that make a game like this shine, not going out and killing 10 guys and augering like in the main arena."
Hmm. I usually dont just auger after 10 kills.
"I play for the glimpses and insights that are occasionally gleaned through thes experience, not for the constance nonsensical air battle over an un-named fictional sploch of airfield in one of the arena's."
Many have said before, and I will say again. The MA is practice for events. MA stick time is good for working on your ACM and SA. Doing events all the time will consist of 10-20 minutes (or, in the case of the Axis in DGS, and hour and a half) of flight time before finally getting to a fight. Fun as this may be, it is a gruellingly slow way to learn.
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AH and Quake style are so far apart it shouldn't be used even as a vague reference. the games are completely different, as are all FPS compared to AH. There may be certain mentalities that are found in both, they are called dweebs. Though I can appreciate someone wanting more of the style of gameplay they want, trying to change the whole game to what they specifically want, with everyone else as casualties, is a bit much...especially when considering the experience of the developer.
Enjoy the MA for what it is, a sandbox. Enjoy the well designed planes. Enjoy fighting other planes and hanging out with your friends. This is what AH is about. There are other options for other people in the form of events.
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Von I appreciate your passion and agree with much you've said ..... Howerver the TURN OFF in your premis is that.... if we don't share the same perspective "don't play the game " the way you would like to see it we are wrong. This is an "attitude" different than a 'perspective' that most of us would find offensive. The your "right" and everybody else is "wrong' entitlement doesn't "fly" here.
999000
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Originally posted by pluck
AH and Quake style are so far apart it shouldn't be used even as a vague reference. the games are completely different, as are all FPS compared to AH.
Its an 'FPS-style mentality', not an 'FPS-style'. I know what you mean, two completely different things.
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Originally posted by Motherland
Its an 'FPS-style mentality', not an 'FPS-style'. I know what you mean, two completely different things.
ya, re-read that myself, and edit to reflect:)
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I certainly understand the OP's point of view.
I said it earlier, and will repeat again, the total lack or participation in the AvA arena tells me that most players are not interested in any type of 'historical' flying...whatever that is.
There is a whole arena with historical plane matchups, much better terrain, and other features like reduced radar, reduced vis range, etc. Yet, it is constantly unpopulated (see the AvA forum for THAT discussion lol).
The crowd has spoken. People want to quake it up in the MA. And not just any MA, but the Late War MA.
I've been poking my head around, trying to get a flavor of everything AH2 has to offer. There's alot of fun to be had, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything other than mixing it up in the ACM sandbox. If someone created a game of AH's calibre, but with ONLY an AvA type arena, or some other mechanism where friendlies were resticted to allied, enemy's restricted to axis, or something like that, I would be a subscriber there.
Right now, my primary joy of this game comes from flying with my squad. If not for them, I'd probably already have left. If/when my squad disbands someday, I doubt I'll stick around. This is fun, but I don't see myself doing this 5 years from now like some of the old timers here.
To each their own.
I am interested in seeing CT in 2 weeks though.
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Originally posted by toonces3
I am interested in seeing CT in 2 weeks though.
I would be too. Sounds great! But... I said it earlier, and will repeat again, the total lack or participation in the AvA arena tells me that most players are not interested in any type of 'historical' flying...whatever that is.
There is a whole arena with historical plane matchups, much better terrain, and other features like reduced radar, reduced vis range, etc. Yet, it is constantly unpopulated (see the AvA forum for THAT discussion lol).
The crowd has spoken. People want to quake it up in the MA. And not just any MA, but the Late War MA.
Exactly. And that's why I don't believe that CT will ever happen. I mean, why go to the trouble and expense of developing that if people are just going to want to "quake it up" in a late war MA? HTC could come out with that CT arena tomorrow, and after a honeymoon period, it would be as empty as the AvA arena is today, and for all the same reasons.
One thing I have observed in this and other games is that sadly, multiple arenas just don't seem to work. People always want to go where the numbers are. An exception to that is when scenarios are on, but I don't want to have to play by appointment and, like I said before, don't want to have to fly at 4am.
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I think we should be hooked up to electrodes that give you a shock everytime you're hit.
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It's a crying shame that everyone doesn't goosestep to the same beat, huh
guys. It's almost as interesting reading these "you are doing it wrong because
you're not doing what I want" posts as listening to a guy with 3 months in
crying about the lack of new maps :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by toonces3
I said it earlier, and will repeat again, the total lack or participation in the AvA arena tells me that most players are not interested in any type of 'historical' flying...whatever that is.
There is a whole arena with historical plane matchups, much better terrain, and other features like reduced radar, reduced vis range, etc. Yet, it is constantly unpopulated (see the AvA forum for THAT discussion lol).
Hmm, could the lack of participation have something to do with the "features" you mention? For me, reduced ranges inhibit, rather than enhance, game play. The historical maps, while historical, sometimes don't promote game play. Historical? Perhaps. Fun, haven't seen a lot of that. You might find that if the "features" were done away with for a few camps, the participation might be greater.
Heck, get HT to put the scores on the homepage, you could probably get plenty of score monkeys in there!!! :)
If the guys that have control of the AvA want to improve participation, they might want to look at changing what they are doing currently, because it isn't working.
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It's really very simple.
Real life Historical ariel combat was long hours of complete boredom punctuated by seconds of sheer terror. Most people are not interested in, or have the time for long hours of complete boredom. I am and I do, but those of us who put that above the quick gratification of the nearest furball are certainly the minority.
Hopefully CT becomes a reality and then maybe we shall see.
Also,...finding like minded guys and a like minded group to fly with can be a good start. Make the game what you want it to be, heaven knows there is plenty of room and opportunity to do just about anything you want in AH.
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Originally posted by VonKost
The problems I have had with both online games is the fact that there is no motivation to act in a historic manner.
Mate the only time I have every had an adrenaline rush playing AH is in the Special Events Arena...
In the first frame of my last scenario I found myself low on fuel and far far away from the field, I HAD to get my AR243 back to base, we had a limit and they were our scouts,
I informed my flight leader that I did not think I could get her home, The reply of my squadies was "If anyone can get her home you can" JG44
I dumped my bombs and cut my engines, I glided from 20,000 feet making a beeline for home.
At around 1000 feet I fired her up and started to pray..
When I finnaly got the big beautiful bird down, I had less than a minute of fuel left....
Man what a feeling
I have not been to the SEA in a while
I dont know if I every will be again
But its not because I dont want to be........
The MA is a training ground...
The SEA is an adventure......
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I don't really think your right or wrong for playing in the sandbox arenas. You pay your money and do what you want. I enjoy flying with my squad as much as the next fellow. I do however think we are selling our experiences short.
haha, goosestep to the same beat. I'd like some historic gameplay and ask why we don't go that way, the logical conclusion is that I must be a Nazi! hahaha :aok
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VonKost,
I don't think you're wrong at all. Given the popularity of quake-style gameplay or, as you put it, "quaking it up" (LOL!) I don't know why people play a WW2 sim like AH. If they want to quake it up, why not play... well, Quake!
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Louis since I have been playing online WWII flight sims like AH before Quake was even produced, and many others have been doing the same before the average person ever heard the word "internet"...I have to ask, who the hell are you?
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For closure I must respond-
I'm not saying others are playing 'wrong'- heck, I'm playing the same way guys. I spend 90% of my time in the LW MA, so I'm part of the problem, not the solution.
All I am saying is that I too would prefer a game that emphasized historical play over the ACM sandbox.
The potential for this does exist in AH2, but for a variety of reasons, it is not utilized in the AvA. We have that discussion about once a week in the AvA forum and I'll leave it to them to figure out if something is broke or needs to be fixed.
I would have left already, but I found a group of guys that make the game alot more enjoyable. I am fortunate to have found a squad of fellas all with the more or less same attitude as me, and I really enjoy flying with them. I even bought the book, "Kearby's Thunderbolts" to learn more about our squad's namesake. Stoney's a veritable history lesson and I learn alot about the game and real history flying with him.
As long as you're having fun, I guess that's the point. But lately I've found myself logging on, checking the .sr and if I don't see any buds on, I just log off and play another game offline. The LW MA is fun, but it is what it is and sometimes the sandbox just isn't enough.
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No right or wrong, but if you want to fly historically, go into the SEA Arenas. FSOs, Snapshots, Scenarios are a lot of fun.
MA arenas are there as well.
Do what you like.
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Originally posted by toonces3
The potential for this does exist in AH2, but for a variety of reasons, it is not utilized in the AvA. We have that discussion about once a week in the AvA forum and I'll leave it to them to figure out if something is broke or needs to be fixed.
One reason only. Not many people like the historical set ups. They are fun for a little bit but not for ever. People say they want historical set ups but where are they? AvA not exactly what they are looking for but closer to it than the MA right? I've never seen the original poster there.
I would have left already, but I found a group of guys that make the game alot more enjoyable. I am fortunate to have found a squad of fellas all with the more or less same attitude as me, and I really enjoy flying with them. I even bought the book, "Kearby's Thunderbolts" to learn more about our squad's namesake. Stoney's a veritable history lesson and I learn alot about the game and real history flying with him.
As long as you're having fun, I guess that's the point.
And that is what it is all about. Having fun
I'd say to people asking for historical set ups to be careful what they ask for. For one thing we know the outcome of the battles and those fights were never fair. Do you really want to log in, wait 30 mins in the tower, then take off under fueled to intercept some buffs only to find the escorts are higher and outnumber you 5 to 1? Probably OK once in a while, but every day?
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I've been in the AvA arena the last two TOD's I got my B24 shot down in on the way to tokyo after 2 hours of flight time and raided a few Russian airbases with my Finnish 109 in the other arena. I was the only one there on the Finn map at the time.
I've been spending some time in the Mid War arena flying the P-47D-11. The 56th flew mostly razorbacks until the bubbletops started trickling in during may/june 1944. Some old Warbirds friends play in the mid war and I hop on to fly with them sometimes. ~Avengers~
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I don't want historical as in 5 hour missions with 5 minutes of fun.
Want I want is a 'historical sandbox' which we have in AvA, and isn't broke, it just isn't utilized by the vast majority of players.
Why is that? I have no true idea, and don't want to discuss it here (do we really need another thread discussing why nobody plays in the AvA?). I'll leave it as:
Most folks would prefer the MA sandbox to the historical sandbox.
Everyday we log on to AH2 and vote as to how we want to see the game community develop based upon which arena we log into. That is overwhelmingly LW MA.
The history is there, it's simply not preferred for any number of individual reasons.
I'd love to see, say EW, be better utilized as a testing ground for some of the ideas that show up on this board from time to time.
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Originally posted by VonKost
So I challenge you all, where is the history?
Regards,
VonKost
Participate in Der Grosse Schlag on Saturday... You can either Bomb those NAZI BAST***S back to the stone age or protect the Fatherland from the Allies' vicious terror attacks. Both with a high degree of realism!:aok
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Originally posted by toonces3
I don't want historical as in 5 hour missions with 5 minutes of fun.
Want I want is a 'historical sandbox' which we have in AvA, and isn't broke, it just isn't utilized by the vast majority of players.
Why is that? I have no true idea, and don't want to discuss it here (do we really need another thread discussing why nobody plays in the AvA?). I'll leave it as:
Question
Most folks would prefer the MA sandbox to the historical sandbox.
Everyday we log on to AH2 and vote as to how we want to see the game community develop based upon which arena we log into. That is overwhelmingly LW MA.
The history is there, it's simply not preferred for any number of individual reasons.
Answer.
It really is that simple. People do what they want, as they should be :D
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Originally posted by mussie
In the first frame of my last scenario I found myself low on fuel and far far away from the field, I HAD to get my AR243 back to base, we had a limit and they were our scouts
. . .
When I finnaly got the big beautiful bird down, I had less than a minute of fuel left....
Heh! I remember that one, and your screenshot of your E6B once stopped on the runway. :aok
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Toonces...
No discussion. A simple statement of fact. If it was fun to be there...people would be there.
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Originally posted by Brooke
Heh! I remember that one, and your screenshot of your E6B once stopped on the runway. :aok
The most fun i ever had with out firing a single shot :)
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Toonces...
No discussion. A simple statement of fact. If it was fun to be there...people would be there.
Reasonable minds can disagree. Most of the people who comment don't say that it isn't fun. They say that the numbers aren't there, or their friends aren't there, or their favorite plane isn't there. The ones who complain that "it isn't fun" typically also say something like, "hey, I can get this same crap in the MA." Then they prance off to the MA, where they get the same crap, but they also get the numbers, the friends and the favorite plane.
- oldman
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Oldman...
I can't disagree, since I am only speaking of my experiences. I will say that it's, generally, been the same as the MA with shorter icon/radar ranges and occasionally, some other 'twist'. The 'features' are the problem for me. At different times, I have spent time in the AvA and most of it was spent either chasing sector counters trying to find anyone to fight or being ganged by some squad looking for a historical experience. I love the idea of plane sets being historical and rotating with the maps. I just don't care for the 'feast/famine' aspect of action.
My real point is that for what ever reason, the AvA has only been able to draw a small number of players. Perhaps, changing some of those features would stir up some interest.
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Originally posted by VonKost
This is the second online subscription Second World War in the air game that I’ve been a part of. I’ve enjoyed them both very much, but there is still much room for improvement. The problems I have had with both online games is the fact that there is no motivation to act in a historic manner.
I’ve always wanted to see historic mission profiles and combats as a result of missions, not find and fight furballs. I guess I just don’t understand the logic of these arenas. Why not play quake if all you want to do is jump in and start shooting. These games have so much more potential. Why not have a European map that represents spring 1944 in the air, make bases un-cappable and score points for bombs delivered on target. Make the bomber mission the focus of this ToD, maybe people will actually have to plan something, arrange escorts, fuel loads and map routes! The Luftwaffe side would have to use their air controllers to vector their interceptors to the raids. You would still get massive furballs, but you would get them for the right reasons.
You could include the 9th air force with their medium bombers and ground attack aircraft. You could even make it so there can be an invasion and ground capable bases after June 6th. Why can’t we design the plane sets to develop over time with improved models coming into service at certain dates.
Is no one interested in this kind of play? I think it is the most rewarding play you can have. Separating the machines from the methods is a mistake. I Guarantee that people will remember a historic bomber raid much more than the next furball at 500 feet.
In a former game I planned and lead a historic mission based on the 97th bomb groups first B-17 raid on occupied Europe. We flew a historic mission profile to Rouen and it took a couple of hours to complete, but it was totally intense and very much had the “you are there” feeling. About 5 miles from the IP turn we got jumped by a few 190’s and 109’s who were making slashing attacks and using good tactics. We lost a few bombers and got 1 fighter and maybe damaged another, but our forts brought us home missing some parts and guns. This mission is 100 times more memorable then when I upped for a furball and got a bunch of kills and landed 5 minutes later.
So I challenge you all, where is the history?
Regards,
VonKost
Gonna answer this one again.
There are lots of squads that are based on WW2 squadrons. My squad is the 80th FS Headhunters. We fly 38s like they did. If we ever get the 39 we'll take those up like the 80th did. There are 80th skins in the game because the skinners were kind enough to do them based on info I supplied so when we go up we can wing in 80th FS marked aircraft be it the G J or L.
All it takes is going up with a wingman or a flight of 4 and the history is there. Generally we'll find N1Ks, Zekes, Ki-84s first if we can just cause it fits for a PTO based 38 squad to shoot Japanese planes.
On SAPP nights we tend to pick a theme based on history. D-Day night, 9th AF night, PTO night or whatever, where we go after planes that fit for that time.
It's up to you whether you want to find the history.
This would be an example of me finding the history in the MA :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Snap3.jpg)
This one too
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Cloudskill.jpg)