Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Oogly50 on October 16, 2007, 08:46:29 PM
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As you know... The squeaker season's just get worse and worse each year. I have comments on this.
For starters, way back when pilgrims settled on america... the education system was simple...
Fast forward ---------> 2007
The education system is decent at best. It's not so much the education system however, more of the fact that the kids just don't care. This could be for a number of reasons. (This being said through a kid's mind)
1. McDonald's is a great fast food chain nowadays... I guess kids just find it would be easier to pass school with nothing but D's, not go to college, and immediately go to work at McDonald's
2. Friends are way more important then education, and we would much rather be passing notes, or figuring out the next great "hey there delila" Parody. Our love life suddenly becomes interesting, and all we can focus on is THEM THEM THEM.
Back when the education system was starting, and America was being created, the children had to hunt, cook, and fight disease. There was absolutely NO time to slack off, and they had dozens of things to worry about...
Nowadays, the only thing we have to worry about is bad hair days, or how we should ask out the girl sitting next to us...
And the big number 3.
LAZINESS... Thanks to amazing video game systems, plasma screen TV's, and internet, the only thing we look forward to as a student, is getting home and pwning that noob who smack talked us on halo 3... We get so caught up in what we're doing, that SMACK! It's dinner time and you haven't even started that posterboard...
No biggy, we'll get a lunch detention at most, maybe lose a few points for our class...
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Allright, so we all know who's at fault here... Society? Or the students...
I think it's both. Society for one, isn't caring much about our education. Just this week I tried doing a fund raiser, and selling tubs of cookies for FIVE DOLLARS... Out of the 50 houses I tried, TWO of them bought from me.
Another thing is, parents. Kids are absent-minded, and are naive... (ESPECIALLY ME) So sometimes we need a little push to get us going in the right direction.
EX: There's this kid in my school who's dumb as a fence post. He also swears in every sentence he says, and he can't go 5 seconds without dropping the 'F bomb' It's not entirely his fault. I blame the way he was raised, he really wants to learn. However his parents are just... horrible.
However, the students could actually try and do better, and try not to get caught up in anything personal enough to mess them up.
Your oppinion is needed, is it society's fault for all these squeekers? Or did human beings just get dumber and dumberer?
This is all coming from a twelve year old.
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Who is teaching the children to concern themselves only with the present? And only with what Botifa is doing on Friday night?
The problem is the parents and society. The kids just do what theyve been sub-conciously taught to.
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I agree, it's not the child's fault if he doesn't know right from wrong, up from down, or how to act.
It's up to the parents to raise their child.
There are SOME exceptions though, but 95% of the time, it's usually the parents who are behind it all.
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You know your sig is WAY over the limit, doncha?
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Thus my decision to home school after jr high
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public schools...
We need a voucher system.. put todays kids into a catholic school and throw out the ones too stupid or too mean to learn and you will have an educated class of youth. the rest can listen to rap, text message and watch tv and work at fast food stores... if they change their minds later...
They can frigging go back to school on their own dime and then maybe appreciate it.
In the meantime tho... the kids who want to learn will.
You can not have a decent education system until you get rid of public schools.
keeping kids in school who will not learn anyway just drags down the rest.
lazs
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"Do Schools Teach Children To Learn?
by Scott Hughes
When people find out that I never graduated high-school, they are often shocked. They know I am very smart and knowledgeable, and they think that means I should not have dropped out of school. This probably means that they either think a person cannot learn outside of school, or that a smart person would not choose to drop out of school.
Not only can a person learn outside of school, I believe that a person can and usually does learn better without institutional schooling. In turn, a truly smart person would neither go to school nor send their children to school--at least not to the mainstream public schools.
In my experience, mainstream schools do not teach children to learn. The goal of these schools is not education, but rather socialization and indoctrination. The point of mainstream schools and standardized education is to turn unique, free-spirited individuals into standardized, obedient workers.
Children are naturally inquisitive and curious, but the mainstream education system does not want children who think for themselves and ask questions. The mainstream education system wants children who unquestioningly believe what they are told and unquestioningly do what they are told. To that end, the mainstream education system attempts to destroy children's innate curiosity and free-spirit.
Instead of letting children naturally learn what they want, the school system shoves an "education" down the children's throats, which unfortunately turns many of them off to learning. Unfortunately, after going to school, many children associate learning with the disgusting authoritarianism of school. Students begin to falsely view learning as bell schedules, hall passes, mandatory class assignments, standardized curricula, and all the other unpleasant and authoritarian aspects of institutional schooling.
Children who are not forced into school, and ones who are smart enough to refuse to go, are not turned off like the others. These children love to learn. They enjoy researching topics of interest. They become curious about new things that they encounter, and like to look up information about these things. For example, many mechanically-inclined children like to order build-it-yourself kits for various items, from a birds nest to a whole home computer. In another example, many youths spend hours at a time rummaging through Wikipedia articles, merely out of personal interest.
Schools teach children to not learn. People learn better without school. Even if you go to school, do not rely on it solely; augment your education by also learning out-of-school. Whatever you do, good luck and have fun!"
Oogly your parents are apparantly doing an amazing job with you.
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Just as a side note, who here has found a program on regular TV that isn't something like SpongeBob or Barnie that had a plot without some sort of love, sex, ect? People complain about all the teens running around with their pants on fire, then go watch thirty people in the sack every afternoon.
Small example of one of society's issues.
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Originally posted by lazs2
public schools...
We need a voucher system.. put todays kids into a catholic school and throw out the ones too stupid or too mean to learn and you will have an educated class of youth. the rest can listen to rap, text message and watch tv and work at fast food stores... if they change their minds later...
They can frigging go back to school on their own dime and then maybe appreciate it.
In the meantime tho... the kids who want to learn will.
You can not have a decent education system until you get rid of public schools.
keeping kids in school who will not learn anyway just drags down the rest.
lazs
Personaly, I doubt that would change anything. I like what Dichotomy's post was about, that hit the nail on the head for me.
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I really do blame the parents more than the education system. When I was growing up I was parented and not babysat by video on demand, fantasy worlds being presented to me via my tv and my gaming system, and full access to the internet we have today. More parents now let multimedia raise their kids and abdicate the responsibility for teaching morals, ethics, sex education, etc, to the public education system then scream at the educators when little Johnny gets detention. And if little Johnny is riding his skateboard down the middle of the street and you tell him to move to the side of the road you run the risk of having some lunatic at your house cussing you out because you yelled at his / her kid. When I was growing up if an adult told me to get out of the street I got out of the street because I didn't want said adult to go find my mom / dad if I didn't.
My kids know that they are going to school to A) Follow the rules of behavior both stated and unstated B) Learn the materials they are being taught and that's all I care about. If they're misbehaving go ahead and give them the detention because what they're going to get from me is going to make that pale in comparison. No I don't beat them but I do have methods of discipline that are tried and true through the ages to correct behavior. I have, in fact, gone to the school and made my oldest stand up in front of his class and apologize to the class and the teachers for causing the disruption he caused. Guess what? It never happened again.
All of that said I resent the fact that the school system has evolved into one that thinks it needs to parent my kids thanks to the overwhelming mass of uninvolved parents. Go pick your kids up at school some day and observe the looks on the faces of the other parents. Most of them have the same expression they have if they're picking up their laundry. This is just another chore that they have to get through.
I agree with MOST of the article I posted but I think it glosses over some necessary details. Bottom line is I looked at the education system that my oldest was about to go in to and decided that he was at a large risk of getting lost in the system and decided to home school him. He's almost done with 9th grade and has a goal of finishing 12th grade by the time he's 16. I think he'll make it.
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All
One day my got a call from the school that my oldest was having problems at school (medical). As a result my wife decided to volunteer some time at the school as to be closer if the health problems continued (it was a strange asthma thing that never came back). After 1 week my wife pulled him out of school and started home schooling. That was in 1994 and since then all 3 have been home schooled.
I know for a fact there are good schools out there and I’ll not lump them all into one basket, but OMG there are some strange whacked teachers. The do not teach government, they teach party indoctrination. They do not teach geography, they teach globalization. The do not teach science, they teach climate change. Once an educator changes from debate and learning of a subject and changes the syllabus to, “my party line”, get your kids out of school or get your butt in there to watch.
And I don’t care what your party line is, but I do care about all our children.
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obviously our public schools aren't perfect, but i think most of the problem lies in the parents. too many people have kids when they shouldn't. Dichotomy hit the nail on the head saying picking up kids from school is just another chore to them. kids need to be loved and appreciated in order to be motivated. there are just too many parents out there who don't give a ****. they look at their kids and see an obligation, not a privilege.
unfortunately, the only way to prevent this is to have government mandated birth control and the requirement of a license to have children. however, this is way to extreme to ever be even considered in America. it seems like something you'd find in a Heinlen novel.
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well... it is a proven fact that private schools can teach the vast majority... it is a fact that public schools do a poor job.
I would agree that a motivated individual with good parents willing to stay home and teach would do better than either... that is fine.. the options should be...
home school or voucher.
As for blaming the parents.. pure bs. For a teacher to have a child 2/3 of their waking life and then blame the parents because the kid is not learning is silly.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... it is a proven fact that private schools can teach the vast majority... it is a fact that public schools do a poor job.
I would agree that a motivated individual with good parents willing to stay home and teach would do better than either... that is fine.. the options should be...
home school or voucher.
As for blaming the parents.. pure bs. For a teacher to have a child 2/3 of their waking life and then blame the parents because the kid is not learning is silly.
lazs
:lol
There is NOTHING wrong with public school. The problem IS the parents. No matter HOW good the teachers are, if the parents arent encouraging the kids to do well, rewarding them when the do well and punishing them when they dont, the kids wont try. The only reason kids in public school do worse than kids in private school is that parents are much more inclined to make education important when THEYRE actually paying for it.
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I don't see a problem with public schools at all
I think of you look at the average WHITE American. I think you will see a great increase in there education over the past 50 to 100 years.. I think they learn better now then they have ever before.
Once you start mixing in other cultures is where I think the system breaks down.
Just means the other People need to learn to integrate more.
Most teens have always cared a lot about social things about school, if they didn't then football and other sports would never have anyone watching them.
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... it is a proven fact that private schools can teach the vast majority... it is a fact that public schools do a poor job.
I would agree that a motivated individual with good parents willing to stay home and teach would do better than either... that is fine.. the options should be...
home school or voucher.
As for blaming the parents.. pure bs. For a teacher to have a child 2/3 of their waking life and then blame the parents because the kid is not learning is silly.
lazs
All private schools show is that if you spend enough money you can create a school that can keep those poor people out.
private schools do well because they can restrict who go to it.
In Home schooling parents take a very active role in there child's education. They know how the kids acts and can completely customize the learning for them.
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poor people are dumb people? or.. middle class people have better values?
Is that what you are saying? if that is true then... of course we should get rid of public schools.. the people making change for me in fast food places and most stores can't do math... how much dumber would they be if they simply did not go to any school at all and had a 6 month training where they worked?
Maybe some people should not go to school. If nothing else tho... they should not drag down the majority.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
poor people are dumb people? or.. middle class people have better values?
Is that what you are saying? if that is true then... of course we should get rid of public schools.. the people making change for me in fast food places and most stores can't do math... how much dumber would they be if they simply did not go to any school at all and had a 6 month training where they worked?
Maybe some people should not go to school. If nothing else tho... they should not drag down the majority.
lazs
So, your saying we should step back 1000 years, and only the rich should be able to attend school? Thats pretty f**ked up. There are plenty of people who have come out of a poor background and become very succesful in life.
I guess free education is Communist and all that is Communist is inherently bad. Thats your reasoning, right?
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Originally posted by Trell
I don't see a problem with public schools at all
I think of you look at the average WHITE American. I think you will see a great increase in there education over the past 50 to 100 years.. I think they learn better now then they have ever before.
Once you start mixing in other cultures is where I think the system breaks down.
Just means the other People need to learn to integrate more.
Most teens have always cared a lot about social things about school, if they didn't then football and other sports would never have anyone watching them.
Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton will be here in awhile to throw down a card...
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Laz I still place the majority of the burden for a childs education on the parent regardless of if they choose to send a private, public, or home, school, enviornment.
Sure the teacher has them for most of the day but a large percentage of the kids they've got are denoted by my previous example. A large majority of 'parents' these days do not actively deal with their children unless it's to discipline them most likely for tearing mom or dads attention off of the boob tube or perhaps an online game.
It doesn't suprise me that 90% of the people I know that wanted to be teachers tried it and decided on a career change after a couple of years. There's way too many little Johnnies and their half involved parents to make it rewarding any more. Pretty soon you start seeing all the kids as little Johnnies and educating becomes a job. You just do it and go home.
Now I grant that I'm painting with a broad brush here but it's my observations and my conclusions base on those observations that have led me to these opinions. Everybody has to do what they think is best for their kids. My choices are, obviously, my choices.
Trell
I really don't think the race card has any place in this discussion. If I'm wrong then my apologies in advance.
edit: ya I know that last paragraph reads like poorly translated hyroglyphics
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Originally posted by Dichotomy
Laz I still place the majority of the burden for a childs education on the parent regardless of if they choose to send a private, public, or home, school, enviornment.
Sure the teacher has them for most of the day but a large percentage of the kids they've got are denoted by my previous example. A large majority of 'parents' these days do not actively deal with their children unless it's to discipline them most likely for tearing mom or dads attention off of the boob tube or perhaps an online game.
It doesn't suprise me that 90% of the people I know that wanted to be teachers tried it and decided on a career change after a couple of years. There's way too many little Johnnies and their half involved parents to make it rewarding any more. Pretty soon you start seeing all the kids as little Johnnies and educating becomes a job. You just do it and go home.
Now I grant that I'm painting with a broad brush here but it's my observations and my conclusions base on those observations that have led me to these opinions. Everybody has to do what they think is best for their kids. My choices are, obviously, my choices.
Trell
I really don't think the race card has any place in this discussion. If I'm wrong then my apologies in advance.
edit: ya I know that last paragraph reads like poorly translated hyroglyphics
Trying to point out a rich vs... poor divide, Wealthy people as a whole put a much greater emphasis on school because they know it is the gate way into making money and bettering your self. They push there children into learning, by spending more time with them to make them learn or by sending them to Private school to get them away from the kids that don't have parents that care about education.
Pointing out White Americans is easier because they are a greater % in the middle class then other races. or newer immigrates.
Culture is the difference, But closer to the culture of rich vs... poor.
I Think most of the burden must go to parents. not public school.
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I disagree.
Let's take my wifes family for instance. When they were young the 3 kids and mom and dad lived for a while in a gulfstream trailer. Dad was a sharecropper (no kidding) and mom worked a variety of jobs. We're talking POOR people with every excuse to turn out as scumbags. Dad worked his rear off, became a Ford master tech, and they fought, clawed, and scratched their way up.
She Devil should have gone to college and can outspell and generally out think me. Her younger brother joined the Army and became a Korean language specialist. He's highly decorated and trying to get in the green to gold program and just sold his house in Hawaii for 5 times the value of mine. Her younger brother just came home today (YAY) from his second tour in Iraq and is planning to enroll in college I believe.
I came from a fairly upper middle class family. My parents were pretty non involved. Dad travelled a LOT and mom worked so I was your typical latch key kid. When I was in my 20's I was a first class scumbag and probably should have wound up in prison. Sure my parents gave lip service to education but they really weren't involved.
She Devils mom and dad were really involved in everything their kids were doing.
I think it really boils down to the approach by the parents.
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Well that would make you an exception i believe. I am betting if you picked a random town somewhere, the better students would come from more affluent parents and drop outs would come from poorer familys.
impossible to be 100% true. But on average.
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Originally posted by Oogly50
Allright, so we all know who's at fault here... Society? Or the students...
Neither.
Its the fault of the parents.
We don't have enough parents who are ready and willing to drive a boot up their kids arse.
My rules regarding school are simple.
Bring me the grades.
Bring me the grades and I will ease off on almost anything within reason.
Bedtime, house work. Etc.
But bring me the grades.
I do not tolerate poor grades.
I'm using the same things on my daughter I used on my son.
When it comes to schoolwork I borrowed a line from the Cane Mutiny.
"Exultance is standard, Standard is substandard and substandard will NOT be tolerated. THAT I assure you."
Grades are only allowed to go up, Not down and as my son discovered Whoa be unto you if you go from an "A" to a "B".
Two weeks ago we received a call about my daughter not handing in homework. After talking to her about it I told her plain and simple.
"Do not think that because your a girl I wont kick your arse because I will prove you wrong"
I then gave her the same choice I gave my son.
"You can either get the grades in school and go to college. Or you will join the Marines.
Either way you will learn how to do something."
Must have had an effect. Lasts series of tests the other day were all A's and B's
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How many of your friends have BOTH parents at work till 7p every night?...MAn...I sound like Dr Laura here...I grew up in late '60's early 70's, and ALL my friends had a MOM who knew damn near everything they did....not any more. (Of course, we ALSO did stuff like...GO OUTSIDE...PLAY SPORTS...etc)...WHEN is the las time anyone here saw a buncha kids playin football or baseball in na empty field, that wasn't some kinda soccer-mom-organised thing?
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Originally posted by Trell
Well that would make you an exception i believe. I am betting if you picked a random town somewhere, the better students would come from more affluent parents and drop outs would come from poorer familys.
impossible to be 100% true. But on average.
Completely agree there are exceptions in every group but my original point is that parents who are not involved with their kids and staying on top of their education, behavior, etc.., are the ones that have the kids that wind up with issues when they get older. So, to me, this isn't about race or income level. It's about being involved with your kids in every aspect of their lives.
I like Dreidocks approach personally and agree. If my kid regularly brings home A's and B's or shows me where he's struggling with a subject in time for me to help you or get help and I'll accept a C and doesn't have any discipline issues at school and I'll give him a lot of latitude in other areas. If they're dogging it at school then the latitude diminishes to the point of working from the time they get home to the time they go to bed. In fact three of my kids are currently doing just that because of repeated rules infractions by all three of them. I don't like it because I have to supervise and make sure they're doing what they were told to do and not slacking in some hidden corner of the house. But they know the rules and they all agree that they broke them repeatedly. I also don't like it because I like for my kids to have what they want and bust my butt to give it to them. There's a lot of my hard earned money sitting quietly disabled because three of them chose to be knuckleheads.
Just my opinions though.
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where are you guys getting that with a voucher system only the rich would go to school?
here in kalifornia public schools cost 10 k a year per student.. we could educate 2 kids in private school for that.
I am saying that let ANYONE who has the desire and the ability to learn go to the school of their choice.
It is you guys who are implying that poor kids are too stupid to go to any school that doesn't lower the standards down to the dumbest in the group.
Then you blame the parents.. the parents are working to support the lazy teachers and their part time job with full time salary... the teachers have the kids all day...
In home schooling... who helps the kids with the homework? well... no one.. the parents who homeschool spend less time teaching than teachers do with your kids.. they just do it better.
As we get more and more 3rd world morons and gangbangers into the public school system it will have lower and lower standards... and in the end... after 12 to 15 years if teaching... the teachers will blame the parents or.... not enough money for computers or something for why the guy who "graduates" can't read.
Why he can't make change at the local burger king he works at.
lazs