Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Mus51 on October 18, 2007, 04:36:43 PM
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This is not whining ( I dont do that ), simply an observasion and request for some insight from others who are more tecnically in the know and willing to entertain this discussion.
I am a die-hard P-51 fan (esp. the 'D' model) and I have spent a limited time trying to get to know the B model. It's an uphill battle for me. I really genuinely enjoy the flight model and find it comparible to my other sim experiences of the P-51D in CFS...It is a solid plane and rings true of comments I have read about her being 'honest' and forgiving. The words that Bud Anderson used about it being the plane that could make both good AND mediocre pilots seem better than they really are is not something that is shining through at the moment.
I have also flown the 109 and find it to be more enjoyable and deadly than the P51, which I personally applaud. I am glad for 109 pilots...
However, compared to many or most of the 109 variants, I find that the P-51 is outclassed.
I usually try to get my team as high as possible and find that we have limited success against the 109.. Pilot error on my part?--quite possible, but I think I am doing well by trying to maintain high speed and engage the enemy on my terms, staying light on the controls as much as allowable maintain momentum
wherever possible.
I also admit, that it takes me a long time to get used to a new flight model and perfect it. Other tactics I have tried include use of combat flaps, no flaps, trim, speed windows, alt., and various maneuvers and still havent completely clicked with the plane yet.
For the little experience I have had in the 109, I am a much stronger pilot in it...
My experience tells me the 109 (esp the G) is by far the stronger plane in most ways.. It turns better (so far as I can see), climbs better, has good enough momentum to stick with the P-51 on the straight and level (esp if you make the mistake of getting caught on the deck) has better acceleration, and can stick with a P-51 enough in a dive to often become a nuisance..but even at high alt I dont notice (personally) a marked improvement in the P51 vs the 109..
What does the P-51 have? The P-51 has better visibilty.
Team tactics aside, the 109K is a P-51 killer!
So what's my point? Well, it is simply that everything we read (at least as Americans) points to the P-51 as being the better (or best) plane in WWII. I continue to read from pilots that "it could do everything the 109 could, but do it a little better." This I have read from numerous pilots of the day..
So the question becomes, are they talking more about the "B" than the "D"? Actually, that's one question.
The next question is, that perhaps the P-51 won through glamour alone, associated with it's range ability to accompany bombers deep into Germany and hense turn the tides somewhat in the air over Germany. Is it possible that along with the press that made Americans proud and the Allies sigh from relief, that it somehow became the 'everything' plane in the minds of Americans? Kind of like the winner makes his own history?
The only thing that helps come to mind is that by the end of the War, the US pilots were probably the best trained in the world, employing tactics that acheived victories over an enemy that was told to tuck-tale-and-run (only to engage the bombers), whenever confronted by an Allied fighter. Of course, if you turn and run or dive from a P-51, you are in trouble. Is this what gave the P-51 is somewhat stellar reputation? A mixture of pride and better dogfigther tactics and training?
The last variable, of course, is the game and the flight model. I simply do not pretend to know enough to question the flight model, but what I see is inconsistent with what I have heard and read. Again, I am still trying to get the hang of this beautiful plane.
Interested to read others' responses...
EDIT: The reason i posted this was because of the DGS's
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I will add this , we are playing AH . That said , fights are close and not to Berlin .
SkatJr will be the guy to learn from if you want to . He's good in P51's , others also , but I know he's really good in one .
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There's a couple of people in the 412th that are great in the pony. Try talking to them (sorry, I'm not one of them, wish I was though:aok ).
donkey
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Pilot quality had a lot to do with the P-51's success. By late 1944, Germany was hurting for quality pilots. Five years of constant war had decimated the ranks of the experten. New German pilots often had barely had enough stick time to keep the plane in the air, never mind being able to fight effectively. US pilots, on the other hand, could have up to 200 hours or more before seeing combat. Also, German pilots flew until they died or were so badly wounded that they were grounded, while US pilots often rotated back to the states after 100 missions. Fatigue certainly played a factor in the diminishing effectiveness of the Luftwaffe.
In Aces High, you have some pilots who have more hours of virtual stick time than any pilot had at the end of the war. More importantly, an AH pilot can make plenty of mistakes and learn from them. All it costs is another cartoon plane and maybe a bit of pride. Combat pilots didn't have that luxury. Their first mistake was too often fatal.
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i find some sucess agains 109k4 in p51 but this is alts ranging from 4 to 8k in the d and higher in the b, also take into acount that most of the k4s i have personaly killed made a critical error or were new to the plane themselves. id never want to meet batfink in a spit but i have fought him in a k4 on the deck of course i dieded
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You may want to look Widewing up in the training arena. There are other good trainers in there as well. I suck in most planes but especially the pony. Come to think of it, I may have to hook up with a trainer myself.:D
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A couple of observations I will make:
1) The P-47 did most of the yeoman's work against the Luftwaffe when it was at its prime. Strangely enough, it was responsible for culling most of the experten from the ranks of the Luftwaffe over Europe before the days of massive bomber missions escorted by massive numbers of P-51's. The P-47 vs. the 109 at normal MA altitudes (say below 15K) is at a severe disadvantage in a co-E 1v1 vs. the 109. That being said, you could argue that the tactics employed by the 47 groups were probably the biggest reason for their disparity in loss rates against the German planes. But, the early missions flown by the 4th Fighter Group and 56th Fighter Group were by no means flawlessly executed, and for those first months of 1943, the Luftwaffe gave as good or better than it got.
2) Typical MA altitudes run from the deck to 15K. Most of the aerial combat over Western Europe was between 20-30K. There is a tremendous performance difference between the 109G's and the P-51B or D at those altitudes. At 25K, the P-51 outclimbs (marginally), and runs away from the 109. The 109K doesn't suffer those disadvantages, but by the time the K was being fielded in appreciable numbers, the aforementioned difference in pilot quality negated the performance parity of the 109K. Speed was much more important in real life than it is in AH. Fly like they did during the war, and you're on the fast track to being called a "wus" on channel 200.
3) SkatSr has quickly kicked my butt in a Co-E 1v1 with he in a P-51D and I in a 109K4 at medium altitude. I am by no means a great 109K pilot, but he is an excellent, if not one of the best AH P-51D sticks in the game. So, you can see how the difference in pilot quality that existed in real life can be replicated in AH. Great P-51 stick vs. marginal 109K stick = dead 109K.
4) Many kills in WWII were a result of situational awareness versus stick and rudder pilot skill. If you notice the majority of gun camera footage on both sides shows two planes that are hardly maneuvering, with one plane clobbering the other. In AH, it is extremely easier to maintain decent SA. The visibility advantage created by the bubble top P-51 canopy is not as great an advantage in AH as it was in real life. I don't want to call them "gamey", but some of the potential view settings in AH stretch the limits of what a pilot could actually see from the cockpit in real life. 109 cockpits were notorious for their limited visibility in real life, and that disadvantage is not, in my opinion, of relative importance in AH.
5) Keep in mind that, again in my opinion, there are many more low-skilled AH pilots in P-51's than in 109's. Most 109's I bump into in the MA display much better stick and rudder skills than most P-51's I run into. Further, our ability to live and fight another day even after having gotten shot down increases our proclivity to push a bad situation and be much more aggressive than those WWII pilots that survived to tell how they dispatched 28 enemy planes over the course of the war.
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109k > everything. That is all.
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I fly the 51D most of the time, i also fly the 109K4 from time to time as i like it very much. As a general rule, the 109 will do tighter sustained turns than the P51, and have a much better climb rate (espc at low alts), has longer WEP period.
But in general the P51 has much better range, better visibility, better guns package (IMO), better high speed handling (roll and elevator responses), and the P51 (B and D) are faster than all but the 109K (WEP for WEP/MIL for MIL). The difference between WEP/MIL settings is greater in the 109 series: eg once WEP is exhausted (in both) the P51 doesn't loose much, but the 109s do. The P51s can drop combat flaps at higher speeds than the 109s too.
The higher you go, the more the climb difference is cut back on the 109s. Plus, IMO, the 109s dont handle as well as the B pony up high. The B pony up above 15K is a monster.
IMO, the 109 which is the true pony killer is the K4. This is very difficult opponent espc with a veteran 109 pilot at the stick. All the others the mustang can disengage from at will without fear. Its not impossible by any means, but if the 109 keeps to the vert, the mustang will find it difficult to hang on. If the 109 tries to out turn the pony in a flat turn contest, you know they aren't a veteran 109 pilot as the turn performance difference between the K4 and 51 are tiny and is hardly playing the 109s key (and massive) advantage: climb. So i'll never fear a slow-speed turn fight with a K4 in the mustang, cause i know the pilot is likely not very experienced. It's the climbers or E-fighters you should rightly fear. I say let em climb, stay fast and below em, then let come diving in too fast where the 109 handles like a mongrel. Set up the overshoot and knock em down.
A 109 that has got itself too fast is easily avoided and easily out-maneuvered. This is the mustangs key strength against it.
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Mus51, how much of what you have read is subjective, definable only by pilot "feel" and how much is verifiable by data?
Not that the p51 isn't a great plane, because I think it is.
But confidence in what you are flying is a big part of it I think.
As an enthusiast don't most of us at least somewhat color or filter what we read with what we like? Are we not more likely to believe something good written about our favorite bird than something bad? Also never forget that history is written by the winners. If we had lost I'm sure the 109 would be looked at quite differently compared to the p51.
There is no good way to remove pilot skill from the equation. You'd have to have a pool of pilots in this case who were just as comfortable in the 109 as the p51. Do a series of duels at different alts, then swap planes and do them over again. In order to really find out which is better.
Add to that
A we know by the end of the war Germany had to be struggling with quality controll issues.
B We know they were short on fuel, they were using Sythentic fuel.
C As was mentioned above pilot quality was seriously degrading for Germany, while US pilot quality was improving.
D Personal skill, I have no idea how long you've been flying AH and the pony.
But it is quite easy to run into people who have been flying the 109 in AH for 4 - 6 years. They will hand even experienced pilots their heads more often than not.
As to what the p51 has over the 109
Range
109G14 full fuel and dt 104 min.
P51d full fuel and 2 dt 160 min. (quick checked in e6b offline)
So Main fuel burn 52 min vs 80 min for the pony.
109 20 or 30mm may be more destructive. But the 6x .50's are easier to hit with, and hit at greater range. I think the pony is seriously capable of landing more kills more often than the 109 given equal skill. Based only on armament and ammo.
Damage This one is even more subjective than most. And while ponys may be more prone to radiator damage I think they are going to come home more often than the 109's given equal damage.
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P-51s seem to enjoy the best PR of any other WWII fighter regardless of what it did or was capable of. Of the American planes in PR / achievements disparity, it is closely followed by the F4U.
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As far as the game goes, and as far as being a dedicated bomber stick in the game, goes. I am constantly impressed with both the lethality of the German fighters and the skill of some of the guys who fly them. In my opinion at least 4 of the top 5 fighters, in terms of lethality against bombers in AH, are German.
As far as the war goes the Losses of Allied air forces bombers against the Luftwaffe speaks volumes.
The thing about the 51s, 38s, 47s, is they were/are incredibly versatile.
A lot of guys new to the game fly the P-51 so there is a wide range of skill levels you might meet sitting in its cockpit. Where'as if you see a 190 coming at you the odds are pretty good the stick in it knows what hes doing.
Last night I battled with a guy who really knew the P-51 and it was a good reminder of what the Pony is actually capable of.
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Thanks guys...so far I find I agree a little with everything that is said here, but...more posts, more oppinions, please..
Thanks!
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Originally posted by Messiah
109k > everything. That is all.
Except the 38... That is what i assume you meant
:aok
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na, K4 will own that as well...depending on pilots and all....
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So i'll never fear a slow-speed turn fight with a K4 in the mustang, cause i know the pilot is likely not very experienced.
I'll do a low speed (stall fight) in K4 against a P51 any day, I'll even flat turn it if it comes to that :)
I don't think you can compare real WWII pilot/plane performance with AH. We can push (and do so allot) the planes to their flight model envelopes in AH without any serious penalties. If we "die" we tower out and re-plane, the worst thing happening may be a bruised ego or bad score, but that's about it. Constantly pushing a plane to its envelope in real life can be very bad for once health.
The main reason for the k4 being able to beat the P51 is its stability and relative smooth handling at stall speed IMHO.
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Originally posted by Dutchie
I'll do a low speed (stall fight) in K4 against a P51 any day, I'll even flat turn it if it comes to that :)
I don't think you can compare real WWII pilot/plane performance with AH. We can push (and do so allot) the planes to their flight model envelopes in AH without any serious penalties. If we "die" we tower out and re-plane, the worst thing happening may be a bruised ego or bad score, but that's about it. Constantly pushing a plane to its envelope in real life can be very bad for once health.
The main reason for the k4 being able to beat the P51 is its stability and relative smooth handling at stall speed IMHO.
Oh thats great lol, that makes me fear 109K4's even more! lol
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I recognise a good 109 pilot by him slowing down and make you overshoot and try to get a snapshot in with 30mm. I recognise them by their willingness to make you slow down even more and get you to commit to a stall fight. I recognise them by their ability of planting a 30mm into an enemy plane at any angle and speed.
An advantage of the 109k4 is that it is lethal in a snapshot (which you will end up having to resort to in stall fights most of the time). 30mm does much more damage in a snapshot then a few .50's. .50's are lethal in concentrated burts in one spot, but that's almost impossible to achieve in a snapshot.
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Originally posted by bozon
P-51s seem to enjoy the best PR of any other WWII fighter regardless of what it did or was capable of. Of the American planes in PR / achievements disparity, it is closely followed by the F4U.
Indeed, especially when it was the P-47 that really crushed the Luftwaffe and the F6F utterly destroyed Japanese air power, killing more Japanese aircraft than the P-38, P-51, P-47 and F4U combined.
My regards,
Widewing
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IMO, a REAL good K4 stick will own ANYthing piloted by ANYone at ANY alt:aok
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Originally posted by bj229r
IMO, a REAL good K4 stick will own ANYthing piloted by ANYone at ANY alt:aok
Not really. I'll take the La-7 over the 109K-4 below 8k, and the P-47 (any one of them) above 25k. I'll take the F4U-4 over the 109K at any altitude. Ditto for the Spit14. I'm quite comfortable fighting 109Ks with an F6F or Ki-84. Now, some guys are thinking, "The F6F hasn't a chance against a 109K-4." Think again....
You guys should know by now that I'm doing my Trainer thing in the TA Tuesday thru Thursday evenings. Bring those 109Ks and try your luck. I've had some great fun dueling with Dedalos, Skyrock, Nomak, Stang, wmaker, Urchin, my buddy Murdr and a dozen other top sticks in the TA. Dissimilar aircraft duels are always the most entertaining and insightful. So, you 109K-4 advocates are welcome to stop in and give it a go. You'll have fun and learn a few things about different fighters that you never realized previously.
The Trainers will be doing more 3v1 clinics in November. Don't miss these...
My regards,
Widewing
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Bring those 109Ks and try your luck
Happy to try my "luck" against your la7 but not in the TA (boring not being able to kill something), I'll do it in the DA :)
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Originally posted by Dutchie
Happy to try my "luck" against your la7 but not in the TA (boring not being able to kill something), I'll do it in the DA :)
Dedalos originally thought that, but changed his mind after flying several grueling 20 minute fights. The TA is a much greater challenge, because you must fight until your gas or ammo is exhausted, or unless you auger. If you can do well in these fights, the DA is a cakewalk.
Stop in, I promise you that you'll be anything but bored.
Besides, those are the only hours during the week that I can dedicate to flying and those hours are committed to the Training Arena. I've managed just 5 hours in the MA in October... Very busy life here these days...
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Dedalos originally thought that, but changed his mind after flying several grueling 20 minute fights. The TA is a much greater challenge, because you must fight until your gas or ammo is exhausted, or unless you auger. If you can do well in these fights, the DA is a cakewalk.
Stop in, I promise you that you'll be anything but bored.
Besides, those are the only hours during the week that I can dedicate to flying and those hours are committed to the Training Arena. I've managed just 5 hours in the MA in October... Very busy life here these days...
My regards,
Widewing
No offense WW, I know what the TA is about, been there plenty in the past and in DGS trials we did prior the frame 1.
Point is, TA endless swirling around each other without hits doing any dmg isn't realistic to MA or DA encounters IMHO. Many plp setup for the second or third or even fourth rev to get the bullets in the enemy plane, a 30mm hit is deadly then and the fight is over then in the MA or DA.
I'm not impressed with high alt performance of any P47 relative to K4 at 25k+. Done some trials with plp at that alt in prep of DGS and had no props killing the p47's. The P38 at that alt, now that's a different story :)
If there are some planes to be careful against while flying the K4, I say it would be the f4u's (1A and 4).
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Originally posted by Dutchie
No offense WW, I know what the TA is about, been there plenty in the past and in DGS trials we did prior the frame 1.
Point is, TA endless swirling around each other without hits doing any dmg isn't realistic to MA or DA encounters IMHO. Many plp setup for the second or third or even fourth rev to get the bullets in the enemy plane, a 30mm hit is deadly then and the fight is over then in the MA or DA.
I'm not impressed with high alt performance of any P47 relative to K4 at 25k+. Done some trials with plp at that alt in prep of DGS and had no props killing the p47's. The P38 at that alt, now that's a different story :)
If there are some planes to be careful against while flying the K4, I say it would be the f4u's (1A and 4).
Dutchie, the problem with the DA is that you cannot isolate the plane's capability from the pilot's ability. Fights are too short, as one mistake ends the comparison. If you wish to measure performance, you need to do it over the course of an extended fight. The TA is simply the best location for that. You'll know if you score solid hits, and know if you've been hit. It isn't about who is the better stick, it's about determining which is the better fighter.
Now, a comment on comparative performance.
Acceleration is equal until about 200 mph, where the La-7 surges ahead. Speed easily goes to the La-7. Roll rate goes to the La-7 too, having much better ailerons than the 109K. Climb goes to the 109K, but only by a small margin, utterly insignificant in a fight. Turn radius is no contest as the La-7 wins big in turn radius and turn rate as well. Equal pilots, at low level, the La-7 should win. Up at 20k, right in the 109K's wheelhouse, the 109K should win.
My regards,
Widewing
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i still fear 109K's when i see them up...:huh
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Turn radius is no contest as the La-7 wins big in turn radius and turn rate as well. Equal pilots, at low level, the La-7 should win.
I never see this in the MA, I have no problems killing La7's in there, dispite the fact that the plane is flown more than the K4 in there and that there should be better La7 pilots purely by experience alone.
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Originally posted by Dutchie
I never see this in the MA, I have no problems killing La7's in there, dispite the fact that the plane is flown more than the K4 in there and that there should be better La7 pilots purely by experience alone.
Most LA7 pilots don't know how to get off the gas.
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Originally posted by Dutchie
I never see this in the MA, I have no problems killing La7's in there, dispite the fact that the plane is flown more than the K4 in there and that there should be better La7 pilots purely by experience alone.
There are very few experienced La 7 pilots. Most people fly that thing rather early in their AH career, then moving on to other planes as time goes by.
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Originally posted by Dutchie
I never see this in the MA, I have no problems killing La7's in there, dispite the fact that the plane is flown more than the K4 in there and that there should be better La7 pilots purely by experience alone.
Ever duel 2bighorn's La-7? I've dueled him to a virtual draw with the 109G-2, because it can just about maneuver with the La-7. The 109K-4 cannot... No even close. Too heavy, too much torque.
My regards,
Widewing
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As i said WW, i'm happy to try my luck in K4 against La7 in DA :)
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Originally posted by Widewing
Not really. I'll take the La-7 over the 109K-4 below 8k, and the P-47 (any one of them) above 25k. I'll take the F4U-4 over the 109K at any altitude. Ditto for the Spit14. I'm quite comfortable fighting 109Ks with an F6F or Ki-84. Now, some guys are thinking, "The F6F hasn't a chance against a 109K-4." Think again....
You guys should know by now that I'm doing my Trainer thing in the TA Tuesday thru Thursday evenings. Bring those 109Ks and try your luck. I've had some great fun dueling with Dedalos, Skyrock, Nomak, Stang, wmaker, Urchin, my buddy Murdr and a dozen other top sticks in the TA. Dissimilar aircraft duels are always the most entertaining and insightful. So, you 109K-4 advocates are welcome to stop in and give it a go. You'll have fun and learn a few things about different fighters that you never realized previously.
The Trainers will be doing more 3v1 clinics in November. Don't miss these...
My regards,
Widewing
OOOOKKKKKkkkkkk...proviso: NO Perk planes, and fights UNDER 25k....Lghey prolly has slight advantage lower, not sure how much, as I don't fly either. Stick one of 5-6 Muppets sharpshooters in K4, and ANYone in afore-mentioned Lghey, K4 wins; (mebbe we could put some money on this...)
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Congrats Mus, you with started a good question and have received good answers. Too often this is not the case in these forums.
I have to agree with almost everything I've read. The P51 was a great escort fighter, but head to head with experienced Luftwaffe pilots would not have been a legend. Also, the victor does write the history, and we only heard half of the victors side after the war because of the Cold War, so we (Americans) are missing a great deal of the history of WWII. BoB and what the Russians did in in the East should not be slighted or forgotten.
IMHO (where I always get in trouble) The P51D did may things well and nothing great. That hurts it in AH where we have no fuel or reliability issues and an unlimited number of aircraft.