Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tigeress on October 20, 2007, 06:04:49 AM
-
(http://lost.rapnix.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/WindowsLiveWriter/Hydra_FEB0/hydra%5B3%5D.png)
Bush has been dictating to our allies... and it's upsetting the status quo a great deal, imo.
The US didn't do that in WWII. The Muslim extremists are empowered by it, imo.
The art of politics is really the art of negotiation and compromise, isn't it?
I have seldom seen such strong armed international tactics as has been used since 911 and it's distancing the USA from her friends, imo.
Understand, I am not a socialist by any means...
When I said I am disappointed and it's time for a correction in the political balance of power in the US, it's because I expected better than this from Geo. W. Bush & Co.
I am a Moderate and I voted for him, twice... the country had gone too far to the left, imo.
Father knows best only when Father knows best...
After the last 16 years... I am beginning to think a single 5 year presidential term might fix this problem.
...and term limits on congress.
We are not fighting a country, imo... we are defensively fighting a Religion... Islam, which is still in the Middle Ages.
In my opinion, that isn't fixed with bullets... that just strengthens Islamic Extremists' power.
It's like the Hydra. Cut off one snake head and two grow back to replace it.
IMO, they want us to shoot them for just that reason.
It galvanizes their support amongst the world's population of Islamists the numbers of which are estimated to be between One Billion and One Billion Eight Hundred Million... WORLD WIDE.
Thus, their power to hurt us grows bigger by the day.
(http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/IslamicHolyWar.jpg)
I think we are getting suckered in and falling back on WWII tactics and strategies to deal with it and it's backfiring.
It's a solution that only deals with symptoms and not the root problem.
In my opinion, Geo. W. Bush & Co has been playing right into Islamic Extremists' hands and has been trying to force our international friends to go along with him thus forcing our Allies to play into their hands as well.
Our Allies, appear to me, to be backing off from us because it isn't working.
What do you think?
TIGERESS
-
Hmm. I have to agree with you on shooting at them only makes them stronger, in a sense.
(I know this is a horrid example, but bear with me, please)
I am extremly nerdy, and just now of age to vote. I just recently (Less than a weeks ago) filled out my voters application card. But back on subject, I am nerdy. In my earlier High School days I played alot of Magic The Gathering, I mean, holy cow, every morning, before breakfast. Sometime skipping breakfast just to have a good time with my friends.
If you have ever played MTG, you will know it is a harmless card game, it is a pass time just as much as AH is, or any other game is. But, just like everything in this world it has critics. I have an aunt who seems to believe that the game is satanic, simply because it has the word "Magic" and "Gathering" in its title. I am of course amused by this, and go out of my way to play it around her.
I think this is much the same. There are people in this world that when opposed will rise up, and become stronger. They will meet their foe face to face and metaphorically (and sometimes litterally) spit in thier face.
Religion tends to bring this on very easily from what I've seen. You live your life knowing that you are correct. That you have picked the right path, and suddenly someone you don't know who thinks in different ways than you comes along and tries to tell/force you into thinking what you have done your whole life is wrong. Plain wrong, so wrong, that by defending your beliefs with violence (Not the best way, but it does get attention) or even some other ways that you are not just wrong. You are evil. And thusly they rally thier people in what might seem to you as an attempt to stomp what you believe wholeheartedly down, into the dirt. And it may actually be that for all you know.
I can not blame anyone for defending thier beliefs, be they good, or bad in my view, to the death in a sitation like this. I am unknowing of most things when it comes to politics, but I would like to believe that violence isn't always the answer. To me, at the time, 6 years ago, when I was 12. And 911 happened, I know what I thought.
I thought, 'kill them all, they messed with the wrong country!'
After those 6 years, I realize that point of view was not just wrong (to me), but I am almost ashamed of it. Human life should not be wasted such. Be it in war, politics, or even on a daily basis for reasons that can not be explained. But if there is no other option at the time, there is no other option.
I don't know if Bush should pull troops out, I don't know. I read these forums to get a good point of view of politcal situtations. And though I tend to take them with a grain of salt I find that most of the time they're quite good points of view.
Even though I just recently started posting I already have views of certain people. Good views. You guys make me think, and though that may hurt my brain from time to time, I hear tale that it can be a useful thing to do.
-
(http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/b/b5/HydraOrganization_Head.jpg)
-
yes yes, negotiate with islam , then we will have "peace in our time".
:lol
-
Originally posted by john9001
yes yes, negotiate with islam , then we will have "peace in our time".
:lol
I don't have a solution to the Islamic threat to world peace. I wish I did.
The negotiation that is lacking, imo, is negotiating with our allies on determining a viable solution to the problem, imho, instead of blindly following a path which strengthens the (arguably) greatest enemy of world peace since Nazi Germany... the real enemy is the power of thought of blindly following the life taking distructive mandates of Islam itself.
Islam mandates that every person in the world either converts to Islam or is to be killed.
IMHO, the prophet Mohammad, the so-called Messenger of God, the sole author of the Quran, is the greatest Hitler of all time and he works his, evil imho, in the holy name of God himself.
I have been reading the Quran to see what drives Islamists... OMG!!!
The greatest thinkers of the peace loving powers of the world are going to have to determine a solution, not a single person or a single country.
And certainly not Geo. W. Bush & Co.
TIGERESS
-
Fight them there or in the backyard. whatever trips your trigger. They want one thing. Us dead. It has been ground into them forever. They are making a move now and it won`t stop by talk of any form. Ya damn right we are using armed authority and you better hope it continues.
I am also going to say that if things goes south you and others that have been having such a grand old time bashing Bush will see the day that you will be screaming...Why didn`t someone do something? He has shown more backbone and U.S. spirit than has been seen in a long time.
Didn`t care for the man when he was running. Didn`t care a whole lot for him the first of his presidency, but when the chips were down he did what had to be done. The only thing to put a stop to such BS.
Now about Great Britain...................... ...answer yet?
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Fight them there or in the backyard. whatever trips your trigger. They want one thing. Us dead. It has been ground into them forever. They are making a move now and it won`t stop by talk of any form. Ya damn right we are using armed authority and you better hope it continues.
I am also going to say that if things goes south you and others that have been having such a grand old time bashing Bush will see the day that you will be screaming...Why didn`t someone do something? He has shown more backbone and U.S. spirit than has been seen in a long time.
Didn`t care for the man when he was running. Didn`t care a whole lot for him the first of his presidency, but when the chips were down he did what had to be done. The only thing to put a stop to such BS.
Now about Great Britain...................... ...answer yet?
You should have seen me bashing Clinton and Carter! hahahaha
I am bashing what I see, in my view, as Colossal Stupidity.
I don't personally know Geo. W. Bush but I know people who have met him in person and they say he is a nice guy and a funny man and not the bumble-butt he appears to be on TV.
I am pro-USA! President bashing is a USA national pastime!
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I don't have a solution to the Islamic threat to world peace. I wish I did.
The negotiation that is lacking, imo, is negotiating with our allies on determining a viable solution to the problem, imho, instead of blindly following a path which strengthens the (arguably) greatest enemy of world peace since Nazi Germany... the real enemy is the power of thought of blindly following the mandates of Islam itself.
Islam mandates that every person in the world either converts to Islam or is to be killed.
IMHO, the prophet Mohammad, himself, is the greatest Hitler of all time.
The greatest thinkers of the peace loving powers of the world are going to have to determine a solution, not a single person or a single country.
And certainly not Geo. W. Bush & Co.
TIGERESS
I actually did not know that, thank you. I've never really taken the time to look into religions that I don't deal with on a near daily basis (Which is none really, I tend to seperate myself from the more pushy religious people around me), and I surely never thought people would go to such to such extremes as those in this day and age (But as it is, I am wrong it would seem.)
I can understand fighting for what you believe in, I can understand fighting to defend what your ancestors, and family have always believed in.
I can not on the other hand understand an urge to force it upon others, or destroy them just to prove that you are right (Which on paper sounds kinda childish to me...) The idea of a religion such as that puts me off to religion in general even more.
I always thought the main purpose of Religion was beliving in something greater than yourself, something that could give you hope through hard times. And that is most likely horribly wrong. Knowing my luck.
But I do have to say, if you feel the need to kill everyone that disagrees with your way of thinking you need to go sit in the corner for a while and think about what you tried to do.
I am sticking by my personal belief that human life should not be wasted. Last I checked we're the smartest things on this planet (Next to Dolphins and Mice, yo.*) and all we seem to be really good at is killing each other, and everything else with us. Though I do like a good explosion.
I actually think the idea of 'One person to save us all!" sounds a bit too cheesy to be a real posibilty, if anything is going to get done anywhere it would have to be a small (I am unsure what I am classifying as small here, but just pretend I know what I'm talking about. :D) group of people, talking out thier problems. Not making each other angry because they feel the need. Or because they feel the masses feel the need.
For what its worth, I think Point of View really is a deciding factor in such situations, and the second someone refuses, down right says "I will not understand what you are saying! Because you are you!," to actually listen. And try to figure out where someone is coming from, what they've had to go through, and what they are going to have to go through to get somewhere better, said person who stops listening should stop talking. Because to me, that is ignorance. And if you don't want to learn what's going on, then be quiet and sit at the back of the class.**
*Kudos to anyone who got that reference.
**This is of course assuming that said talker does not lie. Or try to force sympathy. Or any other underhanded little tricks you can think of.
Also, if my idiocy is blinding, please, I beg of you, point it out to me, I wanna' learn, I swear.
-
Originally posted by Hien
I actually did not know that, thank you. I've never really taken the time to look into religions that I don't deal with on a near daily basis (Which is none really, I tend to seperate myself from the more pushy religious people around me), and I surely never thought people would go to such to such extremes as those in this day and age (But as it is, I am wrong it would seem.)
I can understand fighting for what you believe in, I can understand fighting to defend what your ancestors, and family have always believed in.
I can not on the other hand understand an urge to force it upon others, or destroy them just to prove that you are right (Which on paper sounds kinda childish to me...) The idea of a religion such as that puts me off to religion in general even more.
I always thought the main purpose of Religion was beliving in something greater than yourself, something that could give you hope through hard times. And that is most likely horribly wrong. Knowing my luck.
But I do have to say, if you feel the need to kill everyone that disagrees with your way of thinking you need to go sit in the corner for a while and think about what you tried to do.
I am sticking by my personal belief that human life should not be wasted. Last I checked we're the smartest things on this planet (Next to Dolphins and Mice, yo.*) and all we seem to be really good at is killing each other, and everything else with us. Though I do like a good explosion.
I actually think the idea of 'One person to save us all!" sounds a bit too cheesy to be a real posibilty, if anything is going to get done anywhere it would have to be a small (I am unsure what I am classifying as small here, but just pretend I know what I'm talking about. :D) group of people, talking out thier problems. Not making each other angry because they feel the need. Or because they feel the masses feel the need.
For what its worth, I think Point of View really is a deciding factor in such situations, and the second someone refuses, down right says "I will not understand what you are saying! Because you are you!," to actually listen. And try to figure out where someone is coming from, what they've had to go through, and what they are going to have to go through to get somewhere better, said person who stops listening should stop talking. Because to me, that is ignorance. And if you don't want to learn what's going on, then be quiet and sit at the back of the class.**
*Kudos to anyone who got that reference.
**This is of course assuming that said talker does not lie. Or try to force sympathy. Or any other underhanded little tricks you can think of.
Also, if my idiocy is blinding, please, I beg of you, point it out to me, I wanna' learn, I swear.
In my humble opinion, the Quran is the Mein Kampf of Islam and Mohammad, the so-called Messenger of God, wrote it.
One billion to 1.8 billion people, World Wide, read it and follow it and are extremely devout in their faith in the belief in its truth and believe it to be one and only absolute source of The Word Of God.
IMHO, Geo. W. Bush & Co are not alone... there are billions of people world wide who don't have a clue what we are dealing with in real terms.
I am scared as hell.
Go check out the Quran... it's all there in black and white for anyone to see.
To my knowlege, the Quran has never been modified/edited, unlike the Christian Holy Bible. If you don't think the Bible has been modified through the ages... think again.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
In my humble opinion, the Quran is the Mein Kampf of Islam and Mohammad, the so-called Messenger of God, wrote it.
One billion to 1.8 billion people read it and follow it and are extremely devout in their faith in the belief in its truth and believe it to be one and only absolute source of The Word Of God.
TIGERESS
I wonder if it makes a good placemat...?
Sorry, I just had to... :lol This was getting to serious for my liking, sorry.
-
Originally posted by Hien
I wonder if it makes a good placemat...?
Sorry, I just had to... :lol This was getting to serious for my liking, sorry.
I understand...
I have a lot of respect for freedom of religion and try hard not to trample on that... yet in so doing it puts the Quran into Protected Status and this is what makes this even more difficult to deal with.
This is a Colossal Problem.
If I thought getting into an B-2 Stealth Bomber and blowing hell out of the terrorists would fix the real problem, I would crank up the turbines. lol Regardless of whether Jackal wanted me to stay home and cook him his tatters or not! :rofl As much as I would enjoy doing that! ;)
TIGERESS
-
I really don't know what to say, everything has a downside. Every cloud may have a silver lining, but sometimes that's quicksilver, right to your eyes.
I'll keep an eye on this thread though, that's for sure. Maybe we can get a bigger discussion going, I would love to learn more on this and I'd rather it be through human (if you call this true, human-human) interaction. Something like this is much too broad for my scopes right now, and I doubt I could understand half of what some people say and think. But I will try.
Besides, it's 8:50 in the morning here. I suspect most of us over here are asleep, and that I should be as well. Also, airshow starting in 10 minutes... that I can't get to. That has a P-40, I am currently very angry/sad, and probably will be all today. I will try very hard not to bring it into any posts. And I apolgize now, incase I act stupid later.
-
Originally posted by Hien
I really don't know what to say, everything has a downside. Every cloud may have a silver lining, but sometimes that's quicksilver, right to your eyes.
I'll keep an eye on this thread though, that's for sure. Maybe we can get a bigger discussion going, I would love to learn more on this and I'd rather it be through human (if you call this true, human-human) interaction. Something like this is much too broad for my scopes right now, and I doubt I could understand half of what some people say and think. But I will try.
Besides, it's 8:50 in the morning here. I suspect most of us over here are asleep, and that I should be as well. Also, airshow starting in 10 minutes... that I can't get to. That has a P-40, I am currently very angry/sad, and probably will be all today. I will try very hard not to bring it into any posts. And I apolgize now, incase I act stupid later.
One solution would be for the entire world to convert to Islam.
I don't want to do that... I believe in Freedom of Religion, a government freedom, which is not a "freedom" according to most religions... including Christanity, imho.
There are some extremely intelligent people on this forum... I am interested to see what will be said on this.
It may be that huge numbers of people will have to "convert to Islam" in order to force a change to the Quran from within the religion to make it compatable with freedom of religion.
The Quran, as written, mandates No Freedom Of Religion At All; be Islamic or die.
In my view, the Quran, itself, must change in view of this mandate in order to prevent world wide war and possibly, Armageddon, which the Quran predicts will happen.
Convert to Islam or Die (http://shieldoftruth.org/SOTblog/?cat=6)
The Quran promises to Faithful Fighters of those who do not believe in the One True God (Allah) (thus, the Quran) to be granted unlimited sex with many virgins in heaven.
Men are horny; Go figure.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
One solution would be for the entire world to convert to Islam.
I don't want to do that... I believe in freedom of religion.
TIGERESS
I agree with you there. The act of getting to choose is sometimes taken for granted. You never know what you had till you lose it, you know the saying.
-
Someone was commenting about the recent mocking and sacrilege at a Catholic church in San Francisco and they noted that if these gay militants had committed the same act against muslims they wouldn't be simply chastised, they'd be dead. Islam won't be dissauded from world domination with mere words.
-
Tigress.... absent any solution on your part.. you are simply admitting that bush and our generals have the best solution..
no wall of words can change that. It is easy to be critical and many mistakes have been made but.... without a solution... why participate in this mental masterbation?
give us something and we will tell you if we think it is better or worse of even workable.
Absent that... I think, as jackal says, that we are stuck with two philosophies that insist on the destruction of each other for survival... no amount of talk here or in real life will change that...
All that being the case... we are better off fighting and tying up resources there than here (so far) and if would be really great if a true democracy that was beholden to and willingly allied with us were in the region other than the jews.
I have to believe.. and obviously the islamonazis believe that our way of life is not only superior but is contagious... that more freedom is better for everyone.
It never worked in the region before but.. there was no TV or internet and the arabs weren't wearing levis back then.. the world has shrunk and the day of the islamofacists keeping their people in the dark ages may be about over..
in any case.. the confrontaiton is inevitable... why not now?
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
Tigress.... absent any solution on your part.. you are simply admitting that bush and our generals have the best solution..
no wall of words can change that. It is easy to be critical and many mistakes have been made but.... without a solution... why participate in this mental masterbation?
give us something and we will tell you if we think it is better or worse of even workable.
Absent that... I think, as jackal says, that we are stuck with two philosophies that insist on the destruction of each other for survival... no amount of talk here or in real life will change that...
All that being the case... we are better off fighting and tying up resources there than here (so far) and if would be really great if a true democracy that was beholden to and willingly allied with us were in the region other than the jews.
I have to believe.. and obviously the islamonazis believe that our way of life is not only superior but is contagious... that more freedom is better for everyone.
It never worked in the region before but.. there was no TV or internet and the arabs weren't wearing levis back then.. the world has shrunk and the day of the islamofacists keeping their people in the dark ages may be about over..
in any case.. the confrontaiton is inevitable... why not now?
lazs
Some things can't be said without a "Wall of Words"...
Such as The Vietnam Veteran's Memorial Wall.
Have you read that wall?
You may be right, or not, and if you are, will you let me nuke 'em with a B-2?
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Someone was commenting about the recent mocking and sacrilege at a Catholic church in San Francisco and they noted that if these gay militants had committed the same act against muslims they wouldn't be simply chastised, they'd be dead. Islam won't be dissauded from world domination with mere words.
I find such ignorance saddening. On thier part, that is. Not even giving a person with a different point of view a chance is just wrong to me. I was taught to listen to people, even if you think thier dumb as a brick, listen to them. They might suprise you. (And so far, I think they have in this case, I did not realize that Islam was this badly off to my way of thinking, I thought it would be something I wouldn't have to think about. It would seem that I am wrong. Which is fine, I am rarely correct to start with. Ironic, to me atleast.)
Mere words may not stop wrong doings, but it's better than jumping the gun and making all your friends angry to the point of hatred. Going back to another topic, I suppose I might be able to make it into a more AH related scenerio. As I am tired, and probably going to bed after this. (Good nig- okay, the sun is up. I'll just see y'all later. :rolleyes:)
(Again, bear with me, I've been up far too long, and this is kinda sketchy, I do not mean to anger, and if I do so, I am sorry.)
I see it like this, say you got... 4 P-51s. Model don't matter, they're all the same. Flying in formation, and generally being, well, good pals. Wingmen, friends. Suddenly, out of nowhere this Me-109 screechs out of the sun and stabs in thin air, barely missing one of them. And diving down and away from them. One of the P-51s break, and go after him. When all the others are yelling to hold formation, let him walk away, he didn't cause no harm.
Little does the P-51 that broke realize, he's dragging him down, and below the P-51s, under some clouds are a pair of 109s, waiting. Waiting for one of the Mustangs to break, and go down.
Two things can happen at this point, his wingman goes and backs him up incase he gets in trouble, which I see as the most likely. Or they can let him go alone. The least likely.
Either way, the end outcome does not matter. The proper move (to me) would have been good teamwork, and better training. The P-51 that originally broke formation would not have done so. And thusly they would have all kept going as a group, taking care of each other, and themselves.
Instead of one guy trying to be a glory hog, and put himself, and possibly others in danger. This is, to me, the difference between talking it out with your friends and just leaping to action like a Hero in a bad movie.
(I'm gonna note at this point that I do not have any little underlying tones here, If you find anything politcal in that little scenario beyond the teamwork I'm trying to point out, I did not mean it.)
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Some things can't be said without a "Wall of Words"...
Such as The Vietnam Veteran's Memorial Wall.
Have you read that wall?
You may be right.
Will you let me nuke 'em with a B-2?
TIGERESS
How's your bull ridin'?
Major Kong gets my vote.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueuauKKjPZI
-
Originally posted by AKIron
How's your bull ridin'?
Major Kong gets my vote.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueuauKKjPZI
hahahaha That, Sir, depends on the bull to be ridden!
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Hien
I find such ignorance saddening. On thier part, that is. Not even giving a person with a different point of view a chance is just wrong to me. I was taught to listen to people, even if you think thier dumb as a brick, listen to them. They might suprise you. (And so far, I think they have in this case, I did not realize that Islam was this badly off to my way of thinking, I thought it would be something I wouldn't have to think about. It would seem that I am wrong. Which is fine, I am rarely correct to start with. Ironic, to me atleast.)
Mere words may not stop wrong doings, but it's better than jumping the gun and making all your friends angry to the point of hatred. Going back to another topic, I suppose I might be able to make it into a more AH related scenerio. As I am tired, and probably going to bed after this. (Good nig- okay, the sun is up. I'll just see y'all later. :rolleyes:)
(Again, bear with me, I've been up far too long, and this is kinda sketchy, I do not mean to anger, and if I do so, I am sorry.)
I see it like this, say you got... 4 P-51s. Model don't matter, they're all the same. Flying in formation, and generally being, well, good pals. Wingmen, friends. Suddenly, out of nowhere this Me-109 screechs out of the sun and stabs in thin air, barely missing one of them. And diving down and away from them. One of the P-51s break, and go after him. When all the others are yelling to hold formation, let him walk away, he didn't cause no harm.
Little does the P-51 that broke realize, he's dragging him down, and below the P-51s, under some clouds are a pair of 109s, waiting. Waiting for one of the Mustangs to break, and go down.
Two things can happen at this point, his wingman goes and backs him up incase he gets in trouble, which I see as the most likely. Or they can let him go alone. The least likely.
Either way, the end outcome does not matter. The proper move (to me) would have been good teamwork, and better training. The P-51 that originally broke formation would not have done so. And thusly they would have all kept going as a group, taking care of each other, and themselves.
Instead of one guy trying to be a glory hog, and put himself, and possibly others in danger. This is, to me, the difference between talking it out with your friends and just leaping to action like a Hero in a bad movie.
(I'm gonna note at this point that I do not have any little underlying tones here, If you find anything politcal in that little scenario beyond the teamwork I'm trying to point out, I did not mean it.)
I'm not really sure what your point is here unless you're suggesting that the majority of muslims have nothing to do with the extremists. Rather than make bad analogies why not just say what you mean?
-
Originally posted by AKIron
I'm not really sure what your point is here unless you're suggesting that the majority of muslims have nothing to do with the extremists. Rather than make bad analogies why not just say what you mean?
That is one of the things I admire about Lazs... he gets to the point; same with Jakal!
...and to be "to the point" the problem is the Quran and it's power over the minds of 1e9 to 1.8e9 people World Wide who blindly believe it.
If they are Muslims they, by definition, have no choice but to believe the Quran word for word.
Gonna nuke them all? how many countries would that be?
We are on the ropes... they are winning... everytime we shoot one them the Hydra grows two more just like him.
TIGERESS
-
the vietnam memorial is not a "wall of words"
It is the names of heros put in stone.
I find it offensive that you would compare a few pointless, rambling paragraphs of drivel with such a monument.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
the vietnam memorial is not a "wall of words"
It is the names of heros put in stone.
I find it offensive that you would compare a few pointless, rambling paragraphs of drivel with such a monument.
lazs
So noted, sir.
I mean no offense even if you take offense... and I will ignore your insults.
Seeing a "a few pointless, rambling paragraphs of drivel " is your opinion... not fact.
They happen to be my opinions and I would thank you not to attack me.
Names are words. Those names are on a wall.
IF "Wall of Words" is Lazs-speak for "a few pointless, rambling paragraphs of drivel" then that is your definition of "a wall of words" not mine, Sir.
TIGERESS
-
well.. I don't think I did attack you. I pointed out that you were rambling.
I had a very difficult time trying to figure out just what your opinion was from what you wrote. I got the frustration and helpless "feeling" out of it but very little in the way of constructive opinion.
The part about comparing said rambling with a memorial that makes a powerful statement with no real words.. simply names... well.. that came off as... as.. I don't know what.. if nothing else it just was more... rambling. It was like "WTF?.. where the hell did that come from?"
we think a lot differently I am sure of that much... what I am not sure of is what the hell you are ever trying to say. Getting to the point is not a bad thing ya know?
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
well.. I don't think I did attack you. I pointed out that you were rambling.
I had a very difficult time trying to figure out just what your opinion was from what you wrote. I got the frustration and helpless "feeling" out of it but very little in the way of constructive opinion.
The part about comparing said rambling with a memorial that makes a powerful statement with no real words.. simply names... well.. that came off as... as.. I don't know what.. if nothing else it just was more... rambling. It was like "WTF?.. where the hell did that come from?"
we think a lot differently I am sure of that much... what I am not sure of is what the hell you are ever trying to say. Getting to the point is not a bad thing ya know?
lazs
Ok... thanks for clarifying. I have total admiration and respect for Veterans... and my Father, May God Rest His Soul, was a Vietnam Veteran, in addition to a Korean War Veteran and a WWII Veteran.
I come from a long line of warriors in my family... three generations.
My respect is supreme.
TIGERESS
-
Read this; it clarifies what my opinion is at its root.
Originally posted by Tigeress
That is one of the things I admire about Lazs... he gets to the point; same with Jakal!
...and to be "to the point" the problem is the Quran and it's power over the minds of 1e9 to 1.8e9 people World Wide who blindly believe it.
If they are Muslims they, by definition, have no choice but to believe the Quran word for word.
TIGERESS
And the Quran says to kill those who do not convert to Islam; those who obey and kill us get unlimited sex with virgins (women) in heaven forever; men are horny; go figure.
Gonna nuke them all? how many countries would that be?
We are on the ropes... they are winning... everytime we shoot one them the Hydra grows two more just like him.
You don't stop that with B-2 borne nukes... they will just get to go to heaven and screw virgin women for Eternity!
TIGERESS
-
I find this a bit confusing. You make a statement that "we" are losing and going about this all in the wrong way, a way that makes the enemy stronger. You also say you have no idea how better to do the job and win. Since you have no better idea or strategy, how are you so certain that the means being used is so wrong? If you have no other option other than total capitulation, which you yourself do not want to do, what do you think is so wrong?
You don't have any options other than to complain because the situation you can't comprehend isn't over at this time, without having a clue as to how it should be done or long the thing should go.
By what rationale do you assume everything is wrong if you have no idea what is a right way to solve a problem?
What makes it wrong to you?
What would make a strategy right to you?
How would you recognise it?
How long should the conflict last and or with how many casualties before you end it?
How will you know when the conflict is over?
-
One thing we know for certain, doing nothing like clinton did for 8 years led to increasing violence against us culminating on 9/11.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
We are on the ropes... they are winning... everytime we shoot one them the Hydra grows two more just like him.
Did you ever think that it's possible that we are winning?
Think of it as the glass half full or half empty.
Your perspective seems to be the half empty one.
Mine is the half full one.
So we kill 1 of there's, and two more replace him..
What about if by us killing one of there's, 10 or 20 more realize that suicide bombing, or terrorist acts aren't going to do nothing except make them dead.
Jihad akmed decides to blow himself up in a crowd of people.
A US soldier puts a bullet through his brain as he's running towards that crowd.
50 muslims are saved by the US soldier, and they start to tell there families or friends, "Hey akbar, jihad akmed almost killed me and my wife today, but an american saved us. Maybe they aren't the infidels that everyone keeps saying they are."
Multiply that by 100 or 1,000, or 1,000,000 and eventually the hydra runs out of heads to replace.
-
Hi Maverick,
All very good questions, imho.
I find this a bit confusing. You make a statement that "we" are losing and going about this all in the wrong way, a way that makes the enemy stronger. You also say you have no idea how better to do the job and win. Since you have no better idea or strategy, how are you so certain that the means being used is so wrong?
We meaning non-Muslims. We are losing the "War on Terrorism", imho.
If we all become Muslim, no more terrorist attacks. I don't see that as a solution. I dont have a real solution and said so before.
They keep growing stronger, from everything I see and read.
If what we are presently doing is the right solution they would be getting weaker... I don't see that.
If you have no other option other than total capitulation, which you yourself do not want to do, what do you think is so wrong?
What I think is wrong is terrorism and The denial of freedom of religion imposed by a powerful world wide religion, under penalty of death which they are carrying out day and night... like the Borg of Star Trek.
You don't have any options other than to complain because the situation you can't comprehend isn't over at this time, without having a clue as to how it should be done or long the thing should go.
We have the option to jointly discuss the problem... to brain tank... world wide... on the problem... and derive a solution jointly as the other 4.2 billion inhabitants on the earth. Unilateral action seems to not be working.
By what rationale do you assume everything is wrong if you have no idea what is a right way to solve a problem?
I don't assume "everything is wrong". I am not sure what you mean by that. The non-Muslim population of the world has a terrorist threat fueled by a religion and carried out by solders of God.
What makes it wrong to you?
I don't want to be forced to become Muslim nor do I want to die nor do I want others to die... not even Muslims.
I view all Mulsims to be victims of the Quran.
What would make a strategy right to you?
I don't know; lets discuss it.
How would you recognise it?
It would bring peace.
How long should the conflict last and or with how many casualties before you end it?
The cause of the conflict would have to be eliminated. To change the Quran has never been done. How long would that take? I don't know.
Is ther another solution? I don't know.
How will you know when the conflict is over?
When Islamic Religion delcares to all Islamists that people who are non-believers, edit: and People of The Book, are permitted by Islam to exist peacefully without converting to Islam.
Just so you know...
I was engaged to be married to a man who is Muslim... a Sufi and seriously studied the Quran and was instructed by him on Islam.
I am very far from any kind of an expert on Islam but I learned enough for me to walk away from him and his religion.
And to be very very afraid of the power of faith in Islam.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
When Islamic Religion delcares to all Islamists that people who are non-believers, i.e. People of The Book, are permitted by Islam to exist peacefully without converting to Islam.
TIGERESS
"People of the book" are not non-believers. They are Jews and Christians. Perhaps this is what you meant?
-
Originally posted by AKIron
"People of the book" are not non-believers. They are Jews and Christians. Perhaps this is what you meant?
mmmm... yes. But Muslims are taught People of The Book are non-believers in Islam... sorta like the Catholic view on Protestants... whom Catholics are taught will go to hell because they are not Catholics.
Nothing new in that... most sects of Christanity have that view.
The USA is viewed as Satan The Devil by Islamic extremists.
The Christian Holy Bible does not demand that those who are not Christian shall be converted or they are to be put to death.
Listen, I don't want anyone killed... Muslim or non-Muslim.
This whole religous mandate thing is insane in my view... its Middle Ages thinking, in my view, not 21-Century thinking... not Freedom of (or from) Religion thinking.
TIGERESS
edit: I made an edit to my prior post re: People Of The Book, to clarify.
-
Well, just wanted to be sure that you understood that Muslims view "people of the book" quite differently than someone who does not believe in the God of Abraham.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Well, just wanted to be sure that you understood that Muslims view "people of the book" quite differently than someone who does not believe in the God of Abraham.
Oh yeah... I do understand the meaning... I have also had close relationships with Jewish men and Christian men.
Thanks, dear.
I love everyone... regardless of their faith, including people who are Muslims... this "convert or die thing" is insane though, in my view, and people are dying on all sides as a result and it appears to be gaining momentum.
The Hydra just keeps multiplying heads.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Oh yeah... I do understand the meaning... I have also had close relationships with Jewish men and Christian men.
Thanks, dear.
I love everyone... regardless of their faith, including people who are Muslims... this "convert or die thing" is insane though, in my view, and people are dying on all sides as a result and it appears to be gaining momentum.
The Hydra just keeps multiplying heads.
TIGERESS
Of course this dying did not start with the invasion of Kuwait, the bombing of the WTC, or even the reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1947. It started many centuries before those.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Of course this dying did not start with the invasion of Kuwait, the bombing of the WTC, or even the reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1947. It started many centuries before those.
Quite so... it started with Mohammad the so-called Messenger of God who was born in the desert of Arabia according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571.
Mohammad was a very interesting man... it was against Islam the Crusades of the Middle Ages were waged.
Islam is still here; the Christian Crusaders lost.
This all has deep and interesting history.
911 is yet a chapter in the history of Islam, in my opinion.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Quite so... it started with Mohammad the so-called Messenger of God who was born in the desert of Arabia according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571.
Mohammad was a very interesting man... it was against Islam the Crusades of the Middle Ages were waged.
Islam is still here; the Christian Crusaders lost.
This all has deep and interesting history.
TIGERESS
Some would argue that it started long before that with the birth of Ishmael.
Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” And the Angel of the Lord said to her: “Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction. He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
-
Prehaps so... I was meaning to say Islam and the Quran started with Mohammad, the author of the Quran.
TIGERESS
-
Tigress,
You misinterpreted my entire post. I was not asking any of those questions from the point of view of a muslim or arab. I have no concern at all for their point of view, I am diametrically opposed to it.
Those questions were directed specifically to you from the post that you started this thread with. You were saying OUR as in western or specifically US confrontation with muslims is being done incorrectly so what is your idea and how are you so sure it's wrong if you have absolutely no idea of a different way to do it.
If your whole point is that you just don't like it, you are being just as clueless as kerry was last election. His platform was bush screwed it up but he, kerry would "do it better". He had no indication of anything he would do differently. His bit about getting other nations involved is fantasy as they have no intention of being involved as long as the US is willing to do their fighting for them. Those other nations already said they would not help so dialogue with them is a non starter.
Like I said before, if YOU have no idea how to do this differently how can you say it's being done "wrong"?
Oh and getting the muslims to change the quran, yeah THAT will be workable. :rolleyes: Those nutters blow people up over a freaking cartoon for crying out loud. You want to tell them their religion sucks and rewrite it?!?!?!?! What do you think they would say to that? :huh
One other comment, I've found many protestants who think catholics will go to hell as they aren't even christians. Some have even made statements similar to that here on the board. Now where do you think they got that idea from?
-
the next Crusade will not be fought with horses and swords, it will be fought with smart bombs.
-
Hi Maverick,
Those questions were directed specifically to you from the post that you started this thread with. You were saying OUR as in western or specifically US confrontation with muslims is being done incorrectly so what is your idea and how are you so sure it's wrong if you have absolutely no idea of a different way to do it.
The USA started a war on terrorism, yes?
Are we winning that war? and if so, how can you tell?
If I have any political bias it's just to the right of center.
I based my opinions that we are loosing that war based on the continued expansion of Islamist Terrorism world wide from reading the news papers and observing current events.
Listen, if you think bombing and shooting Islamist Terrorists is not playing into their hands just go ask them.
I wish to God that what the US is doing would work. I am not against tactics that actually get the job done.
I say nuke 'em if that puts an end to it.
I seriously do not believe that would work and instead would backfire.
PLEASE GO READ THIS!
Know Thy Enemy (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/gaffney_2003_10_21.php3)
Please note... I am a Moderate... that means I pick on everybody hahahaha
I wouldn't let that Kerry guy change a light bulb but I thought Reagan was cool... and also John Kennedy.
I like for people to just get the dang job done.
Geo. W. Bush & Co has had a lot of time... and I see the situation as being worse than ever. Others see things through their own view of the world.
I also think ceasing hostilities is just as bad. We are stuck in a "Catch 22", in my view.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by john9001
the next Crusade will not be fought with horses and swords, it will be fought with smart bombs.
and some not so smart bombs
(http://www.hategun.com/blog/images/suicideBomberKid.jpg)
-
Originally posted by john9001
the next Crusade will not be fought with horses and swords, it will be fought with smart bombs.
I totally agree.
We can't stop shooting and shooting them makes them stronger.
That is why I said its like the Hydra and it scares the dickens out of me.
TIGERESS
-
Well Tigress I guess you had better pick out your burkha and prayer rug then, you've given up. No ideas and just a complaint that "it's" being done wrong.
Seems to me that there wasn't much of a "war on terrorism" until after the 2 attacks on the WTC. Even given the Marine barracks blast didn't do much to start a war. Since it didn't start until after the last attack on the WTC was successful I don't understand why you think "we" started it.
FWIW I don't mind a bit that folks criticise the govt. or even the war going on. It's the criticism with no ideas about how to do it differently that gets to me. If you can't think of anything else to do or a better idea of how to do it it seems that it's a pretty poor idea to just complain.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Well Tigress I guess you had better pick out your burkha and prayer rug then, you've given up. No ideas and just a complaint that "it's" being done wrong.
Seems to me that there wasn't much of a "war on terrorism" until after the 2 attacks on the WTC. Even given the Marine barracks blast didn't do much to start a war. Since it didn't start until after the last attack on the WTC was successful I don't understand why you think "we" started it.
FWIW I don't mind a bit that folks criticise the govt. or even the war going on. It's the criticism with no ideas about how to do it differently that gets to me. If you can't think of anything else to do or a better idea of how to do it it seems that it's a pretty poor idea to just complain.
Dang.... sob
"WE" didn't start it; they did. So "WE" declared a War on Terrorism. yes?
I don't like burkas.
And I am not the future property for a Taliban tribesman.
I'm too dang independent for that.
Please! think of something! that will get the job done! once and for all!
Protect me!
That really is the point of the thread!
This just gets "smore scary" by the minute...
If you guys don't stop long enough to actually understand them, how will you figure out how to out fox them?
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
We can't stop shooting and shooting them makes them stronger.
shooting them makes then dead.
when enough of them are dead there will be peace.
-
Originally posted by john9001
shooting them makes then dead.
when enough of them are dead there will be peace.
One Billion Eight Hundred Million of them?
That is a war the likes of which we have never seen.
Perhaps the time has come to call in the Catholic Church to pick where they left off with the Crusades.
I think some of the Knights Templar are still around... they could start the draft for more of them.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Templarsign.jpg)
Knights Templar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar)
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
One Billion Eight Hundred Million of them?
That is a war the likes of which we have never seen.
i knew you were going to say that, how many muslims do you know personally? How many of them are terrorists? All the Muslims i know drink beer and eat pork and wish the terrorists would just go away and stop giving them a bad name.
-
Originally posted by john9001
i knew you were going to say that, how many muslims do you know personally? How many of them are terrorists? All the Muslims i know drink beer and eat pork and wish the terrorists would just go away and stop giving them a bad name.
Remember, I was engaged to be married to a Muslim, a Sufi, and he drank beer and a lot of other things... and was not a terrorist.
But you should have seen him light up about the ill treatment, in his view, of Muslims. And he firmly believed that everyone should be a Muslim when you probed him.
It was part of his identity thus, his male ego.
It's like... mmmmm... like being an American.
A real Muslim has faith in the truth of the Quran... verbatim.
I know of plenty of "Muslims" and "Catholics"... who are not practicing or who are faking it at being total believers.
But you start shooting Catholics for being Catholic and watch those non-practicing Catholics come to life.
Or blow up the WTC... just watch us Americans come to life... it galvanized us all. Our differences disappeared and we were purely Americans and we were hopping mad! And still are!
The Muslims, world wide, are so like us in that regard.
I love everyone... including Muslims... I think they are a victim of the Quran as much as everybody else.
Arabic people are born with a real humanity and many I have known personally are some of the sweetest coolest people I have ever known... on a human level... but male ego is Very Strong as it is with all males.
That is why I would prefer to see this settled peacefully if possible.
And I don't see that as possible... at the moment.
Please correct me if I am wrong... When we kill a terrorist, that is what we kill. What do Muslims see being killed... Muslims... maybe extremist but still Muslim.
Those guys band together. So do you guys... you non-Muslim American guys.
They call our American troops, terrorists... but we don't see it that way.
When they kill one of our American troops they see it as killing a terrorist... we see it as killing a defender of America.
I don't see that we are really that different from them speaking in regards to the way of how each side preceives the other.
If non-violent Muslims stepped up to the plate and changed the Quran I think it would defuse this.
TIGERESS
EDIT: One of the powers of Homeland Defense is their intelligence gathering strength on the Internet. I have no doubt someone in the NSA will read this thread because of key wordage triggering a focus on a computer in Langley, VA or somewhere.
I hope they do. Please pass this thread along up the chain of command so decision makers can read it if the men here get some good ideas. There are a lot of really intelligent people on this forum who are true patriots.
-
I do not wish to be unkind in any statement I may make in this post and if I have hurt your feelings please forgive me.
One cannot wish away bad things or people. Someone has to step up to the plate and do what is necessary to try to control the situation whatever that may be and however that person sees it.
I don't love everybody. I never have nor ever will. I love the people I've selected to love.
I wish most people well unless they wish me ill. I am of the mind that those who wish me ill need to be eliminated.
Life isn't fair nor is it easy. Life is what it is and whatever needs to be done we need to get on with it without sitting around wishing everyone loved each other and could get along. We are not going to get along with the Muslim extremist. That is fact of life. They are trying to destroy us, we need to destroy them. Pure and simple. If it means collateral damage then so be it. It may be unfortunate for those caught in the crossfire but the protection of my loved ones and those I wish well is more important.
I can't categorically say that George Bush's administration has does everything right. I certainly can't say it's been all wrong. I do not have a better way to go about it but what little I understand of the situation in Iraq tells me it is being taken care of pretty well.
Sitting around and wringing my hands and being worried won't help the situation or me or those close to me. It also does not contribute anything. It never will.
So, in ending, either come up with a detailed plan that is better than that being implemented or get out of the way and let those that think they have a handle on it got on with the job.
Mark
-
Originally posted by Mark Luper
I do not wish to be unkind in any statement I may make in this post and if I have hurt your feelings please forgive me.
One cannot wish away bad things or people. Someone has to step up to the plate and do what is necessary to try to control the situation whatever that may be and however that person sees it.
I don't love everybody. I never have nor ever will. I love the people I've selected to love.
I wish most people well unless they wish me ill. I am of the mind that those who wish me ill need to be eliminated.
Life isn't fair nor is it easy. Life is what it is and whatever needs to be done we need to get on with it without sitting around wishing everyone loved each other and could get along. We are not going to get along with the Muslim extremist. That is fact of life. They are trying to destroy us, we need to destroy them. Pure and simple. If it means collateral damage then so be it. It may be unfortunate for those caught in the crossfire but the protection of my loved ones and those I wish well is more important.
I can't categorically say that George Bush's administration has does everything right. I certainly can't say it's been all wrong. I do not have a better way to go about it but what little I understand of the situation in Iraq tells me it is being taken care of pretty well.
Sitting around and wringing my hands and being worried won't help the situation or me or those close to me. It also does not contribute anything. It never will.
So, in ending, either come up with a detailed plan that is better than that being implemented or get out of the way and let those that think they have a handle on it got on with the job.
Mark
Hi Mark,
Nothing unkind nor hurtful in what you said.
Let me be clear... a terrorist is a total sociopath... someone with no humanity nor compassion for human life thus is inhuman... an animal of the worse kind.
Such a person is not a somebody nor included in an everybody blanket of humanity. Such a person is a lost cause... a rabid dog.
I think religous extremists are opportunists operating under the guise of religion.
I am looking for a solution that will work... yes I wish it weren't happening and yes I know wishing doesn't work like magic... in a way "wishing" something, is an expression of desire for something.
When I say I love everyone... that does not mean love as I have for a man I have longing and passion for... or for children, brothers or sisters... parents or relatives... or friends...
It is a love of the universe and an acknowledgement of the beauty of humanity itself.
My life has been far from easy and has had its share of unfairness... that is life.
I can't say Bush has done everything wrong... but he is my president and thus responsible... even if it isn't his fault... the buck stops with him. It comes with the job. He is the captain of our ship. I believe Bush is trying his best... I give him that.
But, I can not believe that there is nothing better to do than has already been done.
Dealing with this problem is not in my hands to do... and I feel frustrated.
A lot of people worry, Mark. Every day and every night and feel helpless.
In the end I back my president even though he may or may not be the best one... but he is still MY president.
But I have to believe there is a solution... hope.
You see... I have loved ones in Iraq.
Thanks for taking the time to write, Mark.
Hugs,
TIGERESS
-
Tigress, I have a love of life.
I have a love of humanity and its ever persistent struggle in pursuit of it's happiness.
I have a love of God and what he has meant in my life and my life is a direct result of his influence and handiwork.
My life has been good, very good, and it has been relatively easy. Yes, I have to work for a living and I have to work 7 days a week but it is a job I really like with people I really like and it allows me to use skills I have developed in the over 40 years of work life I've experienced.
I wish for or hope for or want for lots of things but it still all boils down to doing the dirty deed, as it were. Action is what tenders results, not just the desire to see it happen.
I can't say there is a better way to do something if I don't fully understand or know what is already being done. You're an engineer, you need a point of reference. The media in the form of TV and most radio is not a good reference point. Most of what you see is only the part they wish to use to fill their agenda on whatever subject. Doom and gloom sells. You can't sell newspapers unless there is something to bad to talk about.
The media loves to knock Bush and his administration's efforts because it sells and makes the liberals happy. The liberals own the media. This is oversimplification, I know, but basically it's the way I see it.
I am concerned about a lot of things in life, all of them have to do with my family and myself. I'm selfish that way. I don't have time to worry about a war that is being handled by proffesionals that know a lot more about it that I. It is going to take a long time to resolve. Get used to that idea. It is going to take a long time to resolve. Years, if we want to exit gracefully.
Take care and sleep well, there are thousands doing their best to see that you sleep undisturbed.
Mark
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Some things can't be said without a "Wall of Words"...
Such as The Vietnam Veteran's Memorial Wall.
Have you read that wall?
TIGERESS
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/22_1192978723_jim.jpg)
My brother taken a couple of weeks ago.
I can assure you it is much, much more than a wall of words to him, especialy to the name he is pointing to. He would not be standing there if it were not for this hero.
My question still awaits an answer.......although I am about to believe it is a non-issue.
If I wanted to see tap dancing I would go catch a show. :)
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Some things can't be said without a "Wall of Words"...
Such as The Vietnam Veteran's Memorial Wall.
Have you read that wall?
TIGERESS
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/22_1082782849_dad.jpg)
The tall guy , in the rear, top left. My Dad on the set of This Is Your Life. The short gentleman sitting I believe you will recognize.
If either were still alive today I can also assure you they would not view Vietnam Veteran's Memorial Wall as simply a wall of words .
Just a couple of examples. I am sure there are many, many more right here on this board.
-
Is that Audie Murphy? I was just at the courthouse in Greenville Texas on Friday doing some work there. They have a memorial to him out front. I think he lived there for a while.
-
On a side note, that old courthouse has entrances on all four sides. Sadly, they're all blocked but one and you have to go through airport like security to get in. Greenville is a country town. :(
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Is that Audie Murphy? I was just at the courthouse in Greenville Texas on Friday doing some work there. They have a memorial to him out front. I think he lived there for a while.
Yes it is Audie. My Dad and Audie were best friends in their younger years and Audie lived with my grandparents for a while.
There was an old house just south of Kingston that was his birth place, just down the road from where I was raised.
There is a museum and bronze memorial dedicated to Audie in Greenville also.
On a side note, that old courthouse has entrances on all four sides. Sadly, they're all blocked but one and you have to go through airport like security to get in. Greenville is a country town.
Yep. It is like getting into the white house anymore.
Greenville is pretty well ruined from a nostalgic standpoint as a country town anymore. Too much growth from the big D area.
I remember when the courthouse was more like a meeting hall. Was a lot of fun back then. Leave the courthouse and go down to the old farmers market. Spent a lot of time there with my Granddad on a regular basis when I was a kid.
Good times.
-
Jackal,
What I said was "some things can not be said without 'a wall of words' ".
I have already been through this one once with lazs.
To me.. The Veterans wall, in its immensity speaks so loudly of the massive sacrifice and service it can not be comprehended unless you acually see it and feel it...
In one respect it is a wall with words on it... but it's so much more powerful than that... it is a grave stone for hundreds of thousands of men... I wept as never before when I felt it. It is a monument to our National Heros.
Lazs referred to my postings as "a wall of words" and has done so in the past.
Now, LISTEN TO ME!!! PLEASE!!! I have never seen that phrase before until LAZS used it early on in our conversations on the forum to discribe my postings.
I had no idea his meaning behind that phrase...
Now you address it as well. Doesn't anyone bother to read posts?
I interpreted the phrase "wall of words"[/b] as "more than you wish to bother reading"[/b].
Not as the definition Lazs stated in (what I considered) a flame against me as "pointless, rambling paragraphs of drivel." [/b]
I can assure you without question... NO ONE! NO ONE! HAS MORE RESPECT FOR THAT WALL AND THOSE VETERANS THAN I DO.
The Vietnam Veteran's Memoral Wall is sacred to me.
It's things like this that drive me crazy sometimes... grrrrrrrrr
TIGERESS
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lazs2
the vietnam memorial is not a "wall of words"
It is the names of heros put in stone.
I find it offensive that you would compare a few pointless, rambling paragraphs of drivel with such a monument.
lazs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So noted, sir.
I mean no offense even if you take offense... and I will ignore your insults.
Seeing a "a few pointless, rambling paragraphs of drivel " is your opinion... not fact.
They happen to be my opinions and I would thank you not to attack me.
Names are words. Those names are on a wall.
IF "Wall of Words" is Lazs-speak for "a few pointless, rambling paragraphs of drivel" then that is your definition of "a wall of words" not mine, Sir.
TIGERESS
well.. I don't think I did attack you. I pointed out that you were rambling.
I had a very difficult time trying to figure out just what your opinion was from what you wrote. I got the frustration and helpless "feeling" out of it but very little in the way of constructive opinion.
The part about comparing said rambling with a memorial that makes a powerful statement with no real words.. simply names... well.. that came off as... as.. I don't know what.. if nothing else it just was more... rambling. It was like "WTF?.. where the hell did that come from?"
we think a lot differently I am sure of that much... what I am not sure of is what the hell you are ever trying to say. Getting to the point is not a bad thing ya know?
lazs
__________________
ITS THE SUN STUPID
-
guys.. I think my point is proven... this is just like arguing with the wife or girlfriend.. She will never understand what we are saying and we don't have a clue about what she is trying to say.
Men and women simply don't see things the same way.
lazs
-
Whatever Lazs... you are dismissed in my book... because of your IMPERIOUS (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/imperious) attitude towards me; not because of your XY chromosomes.
But I don't take it personally; You do it to a lot of people here.
I hope you overcome it someday.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
.. but it's so much more powerful than that... it is a grave stone for hundreds of thousands of men...
about 52000 unless your counting vietcong and north vietnamese troops.
-
Originally posted by john9001
about 52000 unless your counting vietcong and north vietnamese troops.
You're short by a few THOUSAND.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I don't have a solution to the Islamic threat to world peace. I wish I did.
The negotiation that is lacking, imo, is negotiating with our allies on determining a viable solution to the problem, imho, instead of blindly following a path which strengthens the (arguably) greatest enemy of world peace since Nazi Germany... the real enemy is the power of thought of blindly following the life taking distructive mandates of Islam itself.
Islam mandates that every person in the world either converts to Islam or is to be killed.
IMHO, the prophet Mohammad, the so-called Messenger of God, the sole author of the Quran, is the greatest Hitler of all time and he works his, evil imho, in the holy name of God himself.
I have been reading the Quran to see what drives Islamists... OMG!!!
The greatest thinkers of the peace loving powers of the world are going to have to determine a solution, not a single person or a single country.
And certainly not Geo. W. Bush & Co.
TIGERESS
No war in the history of the world has been won without the use of Total War.
This one is no different. We will not win it til America grows a pair of testicles, and threatens destruction upon the middle east.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Now you address it as well. Doesn't anyone bother to read posts?
I`ve pretty well got one nailed down that doesn`t.
:D
-
Originally posted by john9001
shooting them makes then dead.
when enough of them are dead there will be peace.
Dream on:lol
-
Originally posted by john9001
i knew you were going to say that, how many muslims do you know personally? How many of them are terrorists? All the Muslims i know drink beer and eat pork and wish the terrorists would just go away and stop giving them a bad name.
If memory serves (and I'm older now) the 9-11 terrorists went to strip clubs and did alot of things that wern't conforming to Islam.
If you hear your freinds holler allah akbar..............duck.
-
Tigress,
I understand your frustration more than you know.
Answers? I can't see many if any other than what is probably coming. Its not a matter of if it is a matter of when. There will be an attack here in the U.S. before we know it. Quite possibly a HUGE one compared to the last one.
You said in one of your posts to "Protect you". There are as Mark mentioned many doing that now. But here in the U.S. there is also many doing it in other ways. But , you are and never will be totally protected.
It's the nature of this country and the way things set up. I personally don't feel one bit infringed upon as far as my Rights are concerned. My freedoms don't seem to have suffered one bit.
But to hear some tell it we're one step from a police state.:rolleyes:
I was taught many years ago by my Mom.....A mans job is to protect his wife or women in general. Without going into detail I live that way in my marriage. My wife is my life. My daughter is as well. My life to pretect thiers anyday.
Things within the male/female relationship is much differant now.
Anyway....Until this country decides to really fight the war on terrorism no matter how messy , we will suffer attacks. Not always on the scale of 9-11's and some even BIGGER and far worst.
Perhaps it is the nature of opposing cultures. 1 must pretty much wipe the other out before things can calm down. Then , over years and centuries it builds to a head again and another big war happens.
I have no answers for this other than my very narrow minded vision of what I think "I" would do if I had the power.
-
Hi RedTop,
Thank you very much for your reply and thoughts and sentiments, dear.
Take a look at this and let me know what you think...
This is Wafa Sultan, Phd, formerly of Syria now living in the US.
Wafa Sultan speaks up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ)
Wafa Sultan Clashes over Islamic Teachings & Terrorists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOp_9xQ3gak&mode=related&search=)
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
No war in the history of the world has been won without the use of Total War.
Someone told me Reagan won the Cold war single handedly with a stare and an improvised speech in Berlin.
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Someone told me Reagan won the Cold war single handedly with a stare and an improvised speech in Berlin.
Actually, the cold war was an economic war. The US waged all out total war with "Star Wars." And won.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, the cold war was an economic war. The US waged all out total war with "Star Wars." And won.
Quite so...
There are many types of war...
TIGERESS
-
tigress.. what makes you think that I didn't know what the word meant? arrogant of you eh?
The point is that you have no solution other than to make things worse because you can't see a solution. You want to get rid of the people who are doing something even tho... you don't agree with the people you are voting in... you do it out of spite.
very womanly... a lot of men here do that too so you are not in that bad a company.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Tigress
If you guys don't stop long enough to actually understand them, how will you figure out how to out fox them?
Simple solution, withdraw all troops from the region, send in ICBMs. Stop cutting off "heads" and go for the fatal body blow. Economic rebuilding could be accomplished by employing any survivors to chip through the glass and get that oil!!!! Of course, thats a little drastic so it seems like what we've got going currently is keeping them over there, no recent attacks on U.S. soil other than the Chinese trying to kill us all with lead based paint.:D
-
Originally posted by lazs2
guys.. I think my point is proven... this is just like arguing with the wife or girlfriend.. She will never understand what we are saying and we don't have a clue about what she is trying to say.
Men and women simply don't see things the same way.
lazs
I agree with Laz, after reading this entire thread. This is the same reason why I dont discuss politics with my wife. She voted for Carter, Clinton, Gore, and Kerry. She gets love letters from the DNC. She served on a jury and felt sorry for the criminal. She doesnt like me to make fun of Hillary, it upsets her... I made a mistake of calling her a liberal and she disagreed... loudly...for days...... I give up.
A discussion about politics, religion, and the world between a man and a woman is fustrating and (to borrow a phrase)
Its like teaching a pig to sing. Its a waste of time and it annoys the pig
-
Originally posted by Airscrew
I agree with Laz, after reading this entire thread. This is the same reason why I dont discuss politics with my wife. She voted for Carter, Clinton, Gore, and Kerry. She gets love letters from the DNC. She served on a jury and felt sorry for the criminal. She doesnt like me to make fun of Hillary, it upsets her... I made a mistake of calling her a liberal and she disagreed... loudly...for days...... I give up.
A discussion about politics, religion, and the world between a man and a woman is fustrating and (to borrow a phrase)
Its like teaching a pig to sing. Its a waste of time and it annoys the pig
I agree for the most part. I see it all the time between men and women married or living together.
What I don`t understand is why. Why would you marry or live with someone that thinks and believes at about 180 out from your beliefs? Don`t know how that works. I guess I lucked out.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, the cold war was an economic war. The US waged all out total war with "Star Wars." And won.
So now even you're not sure you had a point now? :D
-
Originally posted by Airscrew
I agree with Laz, after reading this entire thread. This is the same reason why I dont discuss politics with my wife. She voted for Carter, Clinton, Gore, and Kerry. She gets love letters from the DNC. She served on a jury and felt sorry for the criminal. She doesnt like me to make fun of Hillary, it upsets her... I made a mistake of calling her a liberal and she disagreed... loudly...for days...... I give up.
A discussion about politics, religion, and the world between a man and a woman is fustrating and (to borrow a phrase)
Its like teaching a pig to sing. Its a waste of time and it annoys the pig
When all else fails hyperbole, generalization, character assassination and just general pissyness? ;)
-
Originally posted by Arlo
So now even you're not sure you had a point now? :D
I'm not following you...
-
Originally posted by Arlo
So now even you're not sure you had a point now?
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm not following you...
arlo tries to be cool, sophisticated, witty, but he really ends up being very vague.
just tell us how you feel in plain language arlo, some of us have not been educated (brainwashed) at Berkeley.
-
Originally posted by john9001
arlo tries to be cool, sophisticated, witty, but he really ends up being very vague.
just tell us how you feel in plain language arlo, some of us have not been educated (brainwashed) at Berkeley.
A Texas politician once responded to a fellow on the floor of the state capital who kept asking for clarification:
"I can explain it to you but I sure can't understand it for you."
And you're not that good at fishin', john.
;)
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm not following you...
Your assertion fell flat. You even admitted (whether you realize or not). No, ummm ... lasersailor .... "starwars" isn't an example of "total war." :D
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Your assertion fell flat. You even admitted (whether you realize or not). No, ummm ... lasersailor .... "starwars" isn't an example of "total war." :D
I'm sorry, you're right.
Star Wars was not total war. It's pure coincidence that some 18/19 years later Russia still has not recovered.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm sorry, you're right.
Star Wars was not total war. It's pure coincidence that some 18/19 years later Russia still has not recovered.
Still not making your ... ummmm ... point. But please continue making mine. I'm good with that. ;)
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Hi RedTop,
Thank you very much for your reply and thoughts and sentiments, dear.
Take a look at this and let me know what you think...
This is Wafa Sultan, Phd, formerly of Syria now living in the US.
Wafa Sultan speaks up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ)
Wafa Sultan Clashes over Islamic Teachings & Terrorists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOp_9xQ3gak&mode=related&search=)
TIGERESS
Although she makes some good points , she is fighting a huge uphill battle in my opinion.
Muslims and Islam will never go away. We will be fighting this "War on Terror" until the end of time. No end in sight at all. The islamic faith isn't going to "Go away" and as long as there are people who read it in the way of killing all non believers , we're in a fight.
Also , I think the harder we push towards killing the islamic extremists , the more muslims will turn to the side of extremism. What I mean is , we have what , several million muslims in this country. What if say 10 percent , 1 in every 10 , 10 of every 100 or 100,000 of each million , begin to sypathize with the extremists? Someone makes a statment that sends muslims even more off thier rocker. All of the sudden we have a HUGE problem here. Right in our own backyard.
Yet , we can't stop fighting the war simply because people don't like it.
I will be brutally honest here and say I have NO friends who are muslim. Not one. I don't associate with people from the middle east nor do I have a desire to. No matter WHAT they think of me.
They may like me and my country fine for all I know. They may act that way as well and who knows where or what they may do given the right time and place. I don't trust anyone from there. Biggoted? Probably so...but the 9-11 hijackers played a great act and all the while seemed semi normal. Right up to the point the hijacked 4 planes and killed thousands.
She makes good talking points for certain people to play off of and say , "See they are not like you thought they were."
The reeal question for you is , do you continue to live in fear of an attack? Or , do you simply get on with life , be mindful of your surroundings and learn that thier are ALOT of bad people in the world and they don't care who they hurt only that they hurt or kill alot.
I choose to do the latter. I don't look for trouble. I stay within my lil area of comfort in my world. I protect what is mine and my family.
I have no answers really in this "War on Terror" other than to thinkwhat I would do if I was in power. ANd my way ould prolly lead to closely resembleing the end of the world as we know it.
Your cut one head off and 2 grow back analogy is spot on.
-
Originally posted by RedTop
Although she makes some good points , she is fighting a huge uphill battle in my opinion.
Muslims and Islam will never go away. We will be fighting this "War on Terror" until the end of time. No end in sight at all. The islamic faith isn't going to "Go away" and as long as there are people who read it in the way of killing all non believers , we're in a fight.
Also , I think the harder we push towards killing the islamic extremists , the more muslims will turn to the side of extremism. What I mean is , we have what , several million muslims in this country. What if say 10 percent , 1 in every 10 , 10 of every 100 or 100,000 of each million , begin to sypathize with the extremists? Someone makes a statment that sends muslims even more off thier rocker. All of the sudden we have a HUGE problem here. Right in our own backyard.
Yet , we can't stop fighting the war simply because people don't like it.
I will be brutally honest here and say I have NO friends who are muslim. Not one. I don't associate with people from the middle east nor do I have a desire to. No matter WHAT they think of me.
They may like me and my country fine for all I know. They may act that way as well and who knows where or what they may do given the right time and place. I don't trust anyone from there. Biggoted? Probably so...but the 9-11 hijackers played a great act and all the while seemed semi normal. Right up to the point the hijacked 4 planes and killed thousands.
She makes good talking points for certain people to play off of and say , "See they are not like you thought they were."
The reeal question for you is , do you continue to live in fear of an attack? Or , do you simply get on with life , be mindful of your surroundings and learn that thier are ALOT of bad people in the world and they don't care who they hurt only that they hurt or kill alot.
I choose to do the latter. I don't look for trouble. I stay within my lil area of comfort in my world. I protect what is mine and my family.
I have no answers really in this "War on Terror" other than to thinkwhat I would do if I was in power. ANd my way ould prolly lead to closely resembleing the end of the world as we know it.
Your cut one head off and 2 grow back analogy is spot on.
It's not a fight against Islam and we shouldn't try to make it so. Your post illustrates the folly of such, actually. Unfortunately it also illustrates your unwillingness to avoid it. It even goes so far to show your willingness ... your desire to go the route of making it a war against Islam.
I have Muslim friends. I associate from people from the Middle East. I have Jewish friends that do so, as well. Without such you will never have a true understanding. Though you may believe you do.
If you're gonna fight a war ... fight it smart. Identify the enemy ... accurately. Reduce the enemy's political and recruiting base. That means not playing into the hands of the enemy's political rhetoric just because we're too frustatrated or lazy to ... fight a smart war.
:)
-
It's not a fight against Islam and we shouldn't try to make it so. Your post illustrates the folly of such, actually. Unfortunately it also illustrates you're unwillingness to avoid it. It even goes so far to show your willingness ... your desire to go the route of making it a war against Islam.
Then what do you see the war as a fight against? Not being controversial here just chatting and getting your take. What exactly do you think we are fighting.
I have Muslim friends. I associate from people from the Middle East. I have Jewish friends that do so, as well. Without such you will never have a true understanding. Though you may believe you do.
True understanding? Hmmm...well your right that I don't have a "true" understanding of the muslim people or islam. Nor do I of catholics , mormans, Methodists , buhddists , hindus ect.....But , none of those are in a vest with dynamite strapped to themselves blowing up a pizza hut. Least not yet. None of those people are setting IED's for american troops. None of those have called for a holy war on america. That I know of.
If I were to put you in a room with lest say , 100 muslims with a strong belief in Islam. 10 of them are terrorists. Would you be able to pick those 10 out? If so how?
If you're gonna fight a war ... fight it smart. Identify the enemy ... accurately. Reduce the enemy's political and recruiting base. That means not playing into the hands of the enemy's political rhetoric just because we're too frustatrated or lazy to ... fight a smart war.
Fight it smart. Ok. There in lies the problem with the "War on Terror". What is smart? How do you reduce the recruiting base when the base is basically islam and it's teachings? The political rhetoric is coming from all angles. I've given up on that. Common sense tells me that If I cannot identify my enemy by his uniform , and my enemey shares the same belief as a non combatant , then I shouldn't trust any of those people at all. Why is this wrong thinking?
Again...I'm just looking to discuss...not antagonise here.
What ya think?
-
Originally posted by Arlo
It's not a fight against Islam and we shouldn't try to make it so. Your post illustrates the folly of such, actually. Unfortunately it also illustrates your unwillingness to avoid it. It even goes so far to show your willingness ... your desire to go the route of making it a war against Islam.
I have Muslim friends. I associate from people from the Middle East. I have Jewish friends that do so, as well. Without such you will never have a true understanding. Though you may believe you do.
If you're gonna fight a war ... fight it smart. Identify the enemy ... accurately. Reduce the enemy's political and recruiting base. That means not playing into the hands of the enemy's political rhetoric just because we're too frustatrated or lazy to ... fight a smart war.
:)
I so agree Arlo.
That is why I ask for ideas... origional ideas... ground breaking ideas ...out of the box thinking ideas.
I don't believe humankind has to simply accept a "catch 22" like this situation as being intractable and impossible and simply throw what we know how to do at it knowing it will not achieve the desired results in our lifetime and perhaps the lifetime of our children and grandchildren or hoping against hope that it will.
Identify the real problem and solve it.
To me the real problem is "not editing the Quran"... as infinitely simple as that sounds.
Perhaps a new Mohammad... and enlightened one... in effect.
Should not the non-Muslim 4.2 billion people of the world be free from religous persecution mandated by the Quran, thus Islam, thus these zombie-like terrorists and the religous extremists and those who bend to pressure from these two groups thus provide support for these zombies world wide?
When and where is Freedom From Religion going to play a role on the Religion Playing Field in addition to the Field of Battle?
These people believe they are Solders of God and dying is cool.
Try taking a copy of the Quran on stage at a worldwide televised even and start debating... how about that? Perhaps at the UN.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Arlo
It's not a fight against Islam and we shouldn't try to make it so. Your post illustrates the folly of such, actually. Unfortunately it also illustrates your unwillingness to avoid it. It even goes so far to show your willingness ... your desire to go the route of making it a war against Islam.
I have Muslim friends. I associate from people from the Middle East. I have Jewish friends that do so, as well. Without such you will never have a true understanding. Though you may believe you do.
If you're gonna fight a war ... fight it smart. Identify the enemy ... accurately. Reduce the enemy's political and recruiting base. That means not playing into the hands of the enemy's political rhetoric just because we're too frustatrated or lazy to ... fight a smart war.
:)
No war has ever been won by fighting "a smart war." Ever. Ever, ever, ever.
"... Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
No war has ever been won by fighting "a smart war." Ever. Ever, ever, ever.
"... Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."
Wrong on the first. Living proof on the second. Try AOL keyword "crusades."
Contrary to apparent "popular" belief, Al Queda are not the representatives, the spokespeople, the example or the inspiration of Islam. Those who think they are ... are mistaken. And their anger, their resentment are misplaced. Some of them are using it as an excuse to proudly display both their ignorance and their bigotry. However it falls short in the simplest of litmus tests.
Terrorism is a crime. Local and international. Someone rationalizing their terrorist act by claiming it represents their religion or patriotism does not make that religion nor the country they claim to patriotically represent at fault. If it did you'd have declared war on America or Christians the day the MacMurrah building in OKC blew. But since that was too hard to justify we'll just wait until the next Middle East terrorist group does something horrible so we can justify going after Islam or Middle Easterns, in their entirety.
Notice the Bush administration didn't declare Saudi Arabia as part of it's "axis of terror" nor did they declare war on S.A. Kinda hard to go against those you're in bed with.
No, lasersailor (heh), you're wrong. Wars are indeed won by fighting them smartly. So is the peace maintained. Wars are lost through stupidity (whether it be the declaration and justification or the prosecution or even the occupation).
Now study that history you're working so hard at repeating. :D
And no, editing someone else's religious texts and teachings wouldn't be productive, be it the Queran, the Christian Bible or the Torah. Deal with the radical elements who choose to interpret them to justify their hate and their actions. :)
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Wrong on the first. Living proof on the second. Try AOL keyword "crusades."
Contrary to apparent "popular" belief, Al Queda are not the representatives, the spokespeople, the example or the inspiration of Islam. Those who think they are ... are mistaken. And their anger, their resentment are misplaced. Some of them are using it as an excuse to proudly display both their ignorance and their bigotry. However it falls short in the simplest of litmus tests.
Terrorism is a crime. Local and international. Someone rationalizing their terrorist act by claiming it represents their religion or patriotism does not make that religion nor the country they claim to patriotically represent at fault. If it did you'd have declared war on America or Christians the day the MacMurrah building in OKC blew. But since that was too hard to justify we'll just wait until the next Middle East terrorist group does something horrible so we can justify going after Islam or Middle Easterns, in their entirety.
Notice the Bush administration didn't declare Saudi Arabia as part of it's "axis of terror" nor did they declare war on S.A. Kinda hard to go against those you're in bed with.
No, lasersailor (heh), you're wrong. Wars are indeed won by fighting them smartly. So is the peace maintained. Wars are lost through stupidity (whether it be the declaration and justification or the prosecution or even the occupation).
Now study that history you're working so hard at repeating. :D
And no, editing someone else's religious texts and teachings wouldn't be productive, be it the Queran, the Christian Bible or the Torah. Deal with the radical elements who choose to interpret them to justify their hate and their actions. :)
You do realize that the successful crusades were won by Total War, right?
I'm not going to reply again to you. You're just like boroda. You have these falsehoods so twisted up and ingrained in your psyche, that accepting anything else would ruin you mentally.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Try taking a copy of the Quran on stage at a worldwide televised even and start debating... how about that? Perhaps at the UN.
TIGERESS
Rocky just fell from the sky in shock.
Want a guaranatee that nothing will be done.......take it to the UN.
Get the UN to hell out of the U.S.
-
arlo... saying "I don't get it but I am sure I am right and you are wrong" and then puting a smiley face at the end does not make you the winner of the debate.
I am pretty sure that no one wants a war with islam.. ala the crusades. the crusades were 9 th century... oddly... just like the islamofacists are interpreting their religion, Their enemy (christians) have evolved.. they have not.
sooo... arlo and tigress make the point that we must identify our enemy and "fight smart". that is a great sounbite. very sensisble
very worthless as a plan. The "enemy" hides in the crowd.. he only comes out when it is safe.. he lives where we can't go and he blends in. He raises money and gathers strength and oppresses from the safety of places we can't go... then.. still covertly.. he pretends to be just like the rest of his fellows till he plants a bomb here or runs an airliner into a building.
arlos plan appears to be... wait and see. I am happy with that.. I don't care about blue cities in any case. If he has another way of "identifying" these guys before they get here I am all ears.
The plan now is... to have a whole country be on our side... to anger and force the camelions to come to us and die.
So far.. it seems to be working. you can't argue that when we said "lets leave em alone and fight smart" that we got a lot of terrorist activity here and that... good or bad.. when we are killing them over there and forcing them to come to us.. we aren't getting attacked here.
Now.. if either of you women have a good plan... I will be glad to hear the details... not soundbites... not womanly emotion...practical details.
and... putting a smiley at the end doesn't make the plan any smarter or more clever.
lazs
-
bin laden agrees with the democrats, the war is not going well.
http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/world/ny-wolade235428378oct23,0,4396789.story
-
Originally posted by lazs2
,smip.
The "enemy" hides in the crowd.. he only comes out when it is safe.. he lives where we can't go and he blends in. He raises money and gathers strength and oppresses from the safety of places we can't go... then.. still covertly.. he pretends to be just like the rest of his fellows till he plants a bomb here or runs an airliner into a building.
lazs
I think you are right... and those are heads of the hydra, not the hydra itself, in my view.
This thing is long lived for a reason. Its fueled to be a warrior clan of warrior clans by a mandate that you Lazs and the rest of "us" will either convert or are to be killed with a bounty payed in sex eternally.
It is not a government as we know of governments and it doesn't have a capitol as we know capitols nor one only supreme leader in command like our president.
TIGERESS
-
well... if you agree that I am right then you must realize that some things are not easy.
that does not mean they are hopeless or not worth doing... there will always be crime.. muggings say.. does that mean we should not do anything to try to prevent it? The muggers look just like the rest of us. We can't really fight em but we can make it difficult for them to exist.
In the case of the terrorists... I believe that we have the advantage.. I believe that their cause is so backward and untenable that they can only win support by opression and keeping people in the dark... when an example of how good life really can be is shown.. they look like the 9 th century terrorists that they are,
I believe that they are trapped... that they have no choice but fight this losing battle in Iraq.
I did notice that the latest reports show a 70% improvement in violence since june... since the surge... they can't even keep it up over there... much less here... no attacks here... less there... seems that if we are not "winning" at least they are losing.
They are the ones stuck having to win... it is their world that is getting smaller.. not ours.
It is not that we are creating two for every one we kill... it is that we are drawing out every one that can possibly be that nutty. eventually there simply won't be enough 9th century nutjobs left in the world to keep up the movement. There simply won't be any places for em to breed..
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo... saying "I don't get it but I am sure I am right and you are wrong" and then puting a smiley face at the end does not make you the winner of the debate.
It generally does when it's the other guy doing it. All they're missing is the smiley. ;)
Originally posted by lazs2
Now.. if either of you women have a good plan... I will be glad to hear the details... not soundbites... not womanly emotion...practical details.
lazs
Actually, ma'am, I'm addressing the glaring problems with other peoples "plans" (emotional justification) here. Not unlike you're trying to do. But if you've got game, I'd like to see it. I'll also like to address it's strengths, if there are any, and weaknesses (but don't get your panties twisted cause you think I just inferred that you're weak ... darlin.) :D
-
Originally posted by john9001
bin laden agrees with the democrats, the war is not going well.
http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/world/ny-wolade235428378oct23,0,4396789.story
Got rhetoric?* (*The "answer" to everything.) Good plan, Stan! :D
-
did you read the link, general bin laden is telling his troops in Iraq to shape up because they are losing the war.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
You do realize that the successful crusades were won by Total War, right?
I'm not going to reply again to you. You're just like boroda. You have these falsehoods so twisted up and ingrained in your psyche, that accepting anything else would ruin you mentally.
You're very ironic:
"The immediate cause of the First Crusade was Alexius I's appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire. In 1071, at the Battle of Manzikert, the Byzantine Empire was defeated, which led to the loss of all of Asia Minor (modern Turkey) save the coastlands."
"On a popular level, the first crusades unleashed a wave of impassioned, personally felt pious Christian fury that was expressed in the massacres of Jews that accompanied the movement of the Crusader mobs through Europe, as well as the violent treatment of "schismatic" Orthodox Christians of the east. During many of the attacks on Jews, local Bishops and Christians made attempts to protect Jews from the mobs that were passing through. Jews were often offered sanctuary in churches and other Christian buildings, but the mobs broke in and killed them anyway.
In the 13th century, Crusades never expressed such a popular fever, and after Acre fell for the last time in 1291 and the Occitan Cathars were exterminated during the Albigensian Crusade, the crusading ideal became devalued by Papal justifications of political and territorial aggressions within Catholic Europe.
The last crusading order of knights to hold territory were the Knights Hospitaller. After the final fall of Acre, they took control of the island of Rhodes, and in the sixteenth century, were driven to Malta, before being finally unseated by Napoleon Bonaparte in 1798."
Read more on the specific crusades in detail here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
You're welcome. :)
-
Originally posted by lazs2
well... if you agree that I am right then you must realize that some things are not easy.
that does not mean they are hopeless or not worth doing... there will always be crime.. muggings say.. does that mean we should not do anything to try to prevent it? The muggers look just like the rest of us. We can't really fight em but we can make it difficult for them to exist.
In the case of the terrorists... I believe that we have the advantage.. I believe that their cause is so backward and untenable that they can only win support by opression and keeping people in the dark... when an example of how good life really can be is shown.. they look like the 9 th century terrorists that they are,
I believe that they are trapped... that they have no choice but fight this losing battle in Iraq.
I did notice that the latest reports show a 70% improvement in violence since june... since the surge... they can't even keep it up over there... much less here... no attacks here... less there... seems that if we are not "winning" at least they are losing.
They are the ones stuck having to win... it is their world that is getting smaller.. not ours.
It is not that we are creating two for every one we kill... it is that we are drawing out every one that can possibly be that nutty. eventually there simply won't be enough 9th century nutjobs left in the world to keep up the movement. There simply won't be any places for em to breed..
lazs
Just my opinions...
all that I agree... yet it has lived and fought for many centuries and ebbs and flows... taking shocks and coming back again and again. It has never stopped breathing... ever, since it started. it gets slowed down but charges up.
The heads grow in the shadows to strike again not like reenforcements for an army. They fight the endurance way and think in centuries. They have been cutting us for centuries and are proud of that... technology gives them bigger opportunities as never before... and they bleed us internally where we don't really notice but yet it weakens us.
Nuclear is their real weapon of choice... probably placed an order for what they want with N. Korea and may be delivered to them in view of the nuclear idle down now in N.K.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by john9001
did you read the link, general bin laden is telling his troops in Iraq to shape up because they are losing the war.
I'm not making fun of the link. I'm making fun of your rhetorical conclusion. ;)
-
Originally posted by Arlo
You're very ironic:
"The immediate cause of the First Crusade was Alexius I's appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire. In 1071, at the Battle of Manzikert, the Byzantine Empire was defeated, which led to the loss of all of Asia Minor (modern Turkey) save the coastlands."
"On a popular level, the first crusades unleashed a wave of impassioned, personally felt pious Christian fury that was expressed in the massacres of Jews that accompanied the movement of the Crusader mobs through Europe, as well as the violent treatment of "schismatic" Orthodox Christians of the east. During many of the attacks on Jews, local Bishops and Christians made attempts to protect Jews from the mobs that were passing through. Jews were often offered sanctuary in churches and other Christian buildings, but the mobs broke in and killed them anyway.
In the 13th century, Crusades never expressed such a popular fever, and after Acre fell for the last time in 1291 and the Occitan Cathars were exterminated during the Albigensian Crusade, the crusading ideal became devalued by Papal justifications of political and territorial aggressions within Catholic Europe.
The last crusading order of knights to hold territory were the Knights Hospitaller. After the final fall of Acre, they took control of the island of Rhodes, and in the sixteenth century, were driven to Malta, before being finally unseated by Napoleon Bonaparte in 1798."
Read more on the specific crusades in detail here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
You're welcome. :)
I'm sorry. I assumed that you knew what Total War is. You don't.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm sorry. I assumed that you knew what Total War is. You don't.
Actually, your assertion is that a war cannot be won in any other way than "total war." You then tried to claim the Cold War was just economic so it didn't count. You then tried to claim that "star wars" was "total war", so it did. You then go on about there being some holy crusades against the Muslims "won" by total war. You also said you weren't going to reply to me anymore.
The days of me not taking you seriously have definately come to a middle.
:D
-
I'm still waiting on Arlo's answer to my questions?
-
Originally posted by RedTop
I'm still waiting on Arlo's answer to my questions?
I'm sorry, I thought you saw the post. Which questions did I miss? :)
-
Originally posted by Arlo
I'm sorry, I thought you saw the post. Which questions did I miss? :)
,y last post to you is right below your quoteing me and talking about a smart war...I posted back to you.
No worries. You have plenty here to speak to.
-
Originally posted by RedTop
Then what do you see the war as a fight against?
Not Islam. The administration claims it's against terrorism. It then decided that was too broad and adopted the already out of control rhetoric of "Islamofascists" which, ironically, made things even worse.
It's against the Al Queda. It's against terrorists. It's against criminals. Declaring Islam the crime ..... the enemy ... is not a solution.
Originally posted by RedTop
If I were to put you in a room with lets say , 100 muslims with a strong belief in Islam. 10 of them are terrorists. Would you be able to pick those 10 out? If so how?
Your ratio is a poor presumption but you're creating the scenario so ....
If I was the one responsible for such I would have the tools deal with the crime. I thought conservatives were against the idea of "thought crime?" That aside, the potential for the crime has to exist. Explosives can be detected. As can guns. As can a knife. So, potential terrorist identified, if they have the potential. If they don't? I talk to the people in the room. All of them. If they're not a terrorist and I'm not a dumbarse I may create an ally. If they are (a potential), I may convert (slim odds). More the reason to have allies.
Or I can just either ignore them all or shoot them all and see if it affects the ratio in the next room of Muslims you put me in.
Not rocket science by any degree.
:)
-
Originally posted by RedTop
,y last post to you is right below your quoteing me and talking about a smart war...I posted back to you.
No worries. You have plenty here to speak to.
It's not a situation of my not being able to see your posts. It's a situation of my having thought I covered things adequately. But I'm backtracking to try and cover each individual point directly made by you directly back at you.
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Not Islam. The administration claims it's against terrorism. It then decided that was too broad and adopted the already out of control rhetoric of "Islamofascists" which, ironically, made things even worse.
It's against the Al Queda. It's against terrorists. It's against criminals. Declaring Islam the crime ..... the enemy ... is not a solution.
Your ratio is a poor presumption but you're creating the scenario so ....
If I was the one responsible for such I would have the tools deal with the crime. I thought conservatives were against the idea of "thought crime?" That aside, the potential for the crime has to exist. Explosives can be detected. As can guns. As can a knife. So, potential terrorist identified, if they have the potential. If they don't? I talk to the people in the room. All of them. If they're not a terrorist and I'm not a dumbarse I may create an ally. If they are (a potential), I may convert (slim odds). More the reason to have allies.
Or I can just either ignore them all or shoot them all and see if it affects the ratio in the next room of Muslims you put me in.
Not rocket science by any degree.
:)
Ok thanks Arlo :)
-
Originally posted by RedTop
Ok thanks Arlo :)
Not a prob. An I didn't think anything you posted to me was antagonistic, btw. We may have differences of opinion but we also have non-differences.
I made it home alive from the con. Someone threw up beside my car that night, dammit.
;)
-
The war with Nazi Germany was not a war we started, we the peoples of the world living outside of Nazi Germany, that is.
It was started by one man who wrote a book with which to persuade.
The German people were not the root problem, nor their religion, per se...
The Christian bible did not call for "convert or die" of those of the Jewish faith... yet Fascism strategically incorporates the power of Christian faith as a tool of influence and control.
Just look at the Neo-Nazis... and the KKK.
The book Hitler wrote, called for genocide of those of the Jewish faith and world domination.
How is that different than the Quran?
The Quran calls for complete elimination, from the face of the earth, of all religions except Islam with a mandate to carry this out by deadly force if met with resistance.
How many in Nazi Germany went along with the flow?
How many Germans kept silent? ...out of fear?
How many prewar and early war Americans were disinterested? Japan brought us to a state of war.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEED9113BF931A15756C0A96E948260
Hitler did not fight the war alone; he enlisted help and fanned the flames.
I would wager almost no one here has read the Quran... who is not Islamic.
Who here knows enough about Mohammed to know the differences between his book and influence and Hitler's book and influence?
Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler (http://www.crusader.net/texts/mk/)
The Quran by Mohammed (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html)
How many of you will bother to find out?
Know thy enemy's manifesto... Many non-Fascists in the US read Mein Kampf when they were finally forced to take Hitler's Nazi Fascism as a serious threat to themselves.
What is it going to take for you to read the militant Islamist's manifesto, "The Quran"?
...the loss of New York City? ...Los Angeles? ...London? ...Copenhagen? ...Tokyo? ...Bangkok? ...Manila? ...all of them?
Eventually, Moscow, Pyongyang, and Beijing will be targeted, which I find ironic...
...the words of Stalin, "I will hang the capitalist bastards with the rope that they sell us."
Who sells what to whom? ...and why?
(http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/ardila/Los-Angeles.jpg)
(http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/IslamicHolyWar.jpg)
(http://www.mcb10koreaseabees.com/images/Castle_Bravo_2-29-1954.jpg)
TIGERESS
-
The only real permanent solution I can see is for the Islamist non-violent to stop turning their backs on the need for Islam reform in the form of a New Islamic Testament of the Quran or a revised version agreed to by the Islamist Majority.
As long as the Islamist Majority share their book of faith, as written, with Militant Islamists... they are culpable, even by inaction, in my view.
The Quran, as written, is a manifesto for world dominance and particularily the total domination of all women world wide to the point of making every one of us creatures of total slavery.
Read the book; Look at Islamic cultures.
Oh how Arian of the non-Islamic who believe no one will prevail, but them...
As a white Christian woman, I could have lived a rather decent life under Nazi rule... but who the heck would want to?
Under strict Islamic rule, I am but a slave.
TIGERESS
-
To the non-Islamist majority: If a city of Infidels goes up in a nuclear fire ball... do you think your world becomes safer? ...that you are safer? ...that it is the Will of God? ...according to the Quran?
If that happens... the cities of Damascus and Tehran will be vaporized along with many peace loving Islamists in addition to Militant Islamists.
Why does Bush want to build a missile defense for Europe?
...and why is it Moscow doesn't want to help build it and run it?
If Bangkok, or Toyko, or Manila goes up in a nuclear blast do you think they will not strike back in kind? think again... I have been to each of those cities... and gotten to know the nature of those peoples... they will strike back... in kind.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
To the non-Islamist majority: If a city of Infidels goes up in a nuclear fire ball... do you think your world becomes safer? ...that you are safer? ...that it is the Will of God? ...according to the Quran?
If that happens... the cities of Damascus and Tehran will be vaporized along with many peace loving Islamists in addition to Militant Islamists.
Why does Bush want to build a missile defense for Europe?
...and why is it Moscow doesn't want to help build it and run it?
If Bangkok, or Toyko, or Manila goes up in a nuclear blast do you think they will not strike back in kind? think again... I have been to each of those cities... and gotten to know the nature of those peoples... they will strike back... in kind.
TIGERESS
I made a typographical error...
The above was intended to be addressed to: Non-Militant Islamic Majority and not to the non-Islamist majority.
TIGERESS
-
sooo.. in other words...
YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION.
I admit that I skimmed all your emotion filled posts but I could find nothing that resembled a practical solution... even when you prefaced a wall of words with "the solution is"
just a teaser... no solution was forthcoming... just more words and emotion and nice pictures... pretty much like an algore documentary.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
sooo.. in other words...
YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION.
I admit that I skimmed all your emotion filled posts but I could find nothing that resembled a practical solution... even when you prefaced a wall of words with "the solution is"
just a teaser... no solution was forthcoming... just more words and emotion and nice pictures... pretty much like an algore documentary.
lazs
hahahaha "WoWs"...
I broke it up into three bite-sized chunks, just for you! :)
Go browse the Quran... in bite-sized chunks.
Mohammed thought like you do about women hahahaha
You will like him! teehee
No I surely don't have a workable solution! I'ts a hypothetical one...
If I did I would surely win the Nobel Peace Prize.
The non-violent Islamists are, in the main, way too cowed by Islamist Religous Police to push back against it. Thus, many come to the US and Western Europe. Islamist Extremists/Militants are equal opportunity threats... they give everyone the business... even fellow Islamists.
Quran fueled human rights violations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx949cehGHw)
Islamic Religous Police in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcz3TYqWpwc)
(5of6) A 16 Year Old Iranian Girl Executed by Islamic Police (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PYJHUniri0)
Film of police brutality in Iran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht4MdB6GBMk)
Human rights situation in Iran, all in the name of Mohammed's Quran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2cdUp00rWc)
I find it so hard to see these videos knowing it goes on 24/7/365 and is spreading its web to reach us all. But not to look is also a crime against Humanity, IMV.
TIGERESS
-
I believe that I understand the situation at least as well as you do.
I also realize that not all muslims are stuck in the 9th century and an islamofacist mindset.. it is really just a few in the worst hellholes on earth.
I realize that time is not on their side. that the shrinking world will destroy 9th century thinking.. how can it not?
In the meantime.. we have to fight the most violent and obvious ones and strive to make some of the hellholes places of real opportunity and freedom.
It seems to me that we are doing what we can in a battle that is inevitable.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I believe that I understand the situation at least as well as you do.
I also realize that not all muslims are stuck in the 9th century and an islamofacist mindset.. it is really just a few in the worst hellholes on earth.
I realize that time is not on their side. that the shrinking world will destroy 9th century thinking.. how can it not?
In the meantime.. we have to fight the most violent and obvious ones and strive to make some of the hellholes places of real opportunity and freedom.
It seems to me that we are doing what we can in a battle that is inevitable.
lazs
I am sure you do Lazs... and with all you have said above I could never disagree.
The treatment of women in Islamic society is... criminal in the extreme, in my view.
Of that, I never see you speak... why is that?
Did I simply miss those posts? never mind... whatever...
TIGERESS
-
what is your point? does the left ever speak of the way women are treated?
Why would I? I believe that if the women join a religion of their own free will that makes them do... whatever... that is their business.
That is how I feel about it. I wish to give everyone a choice... if you choose to give up your own personal rights.. that is your business... when you force people... that is different.
The left however.. feels that you should have no choice.. that women can never be made to wear or do whatever.. even if they are the ones who chose to do so.
My ideal would be.. our forefathers... freedom of religion.. all religion. so long as it did not force people.
I don't see how that is so difficult for you to grasp.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
what is your point? does the left ever speak of the way women are treated?
Why would I? I believe that if the women join a religion of their own free will that makes them do... whatever... that is their business.
That is how I feel about it. I wish to give everyone a choice... if you choose to give up your own personal rights.. that is your business... when you force people... that is different.
The left however.. feels that you should have no choice.. that women can never be made to wear or do whatever.. even if they are the ones who chose to do so.
My ideal would be.. our forefathers... freedom of religion.. all religion. so long as it did not force people.
I don't see how that is so difficult for you to grasp.
lazs
Most women who are Islamic did not do this... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_DNvIuZus)
1) So, from what you are saying, you have no empathy for anyone not like you? Yes? No?
Assuming I am a lefty or a righty is an error of assumption.
I am a middle of the roady moderate; just to the right of center.
Islam, like many other religions... is a matter of birth for many peoples.
2) How many Christians are baptized as infants and raised in the context of their parents religion?
3) Where you are born and to whom you are born sets many things in concrete. Yes? No?
4) It is incumbent upon the unborn child to choose their parents wisely? Yes? No?
mmmm...
TIGERESS
-
Unfortunately there is only one solution.
And its the solution that nobody wants to do.
But is probably inevitable even if by their own hand.
Much of the fight is about control of the so called Holy lands.
Like two kids that wont stop fighting over a ball.
Remove the ball
Evaporate the holy lands and the surrounding area from existance.
In that way you cut off all the heads of the hydra and seal then with fire.
Much in the way Hercules did in fighting the hydra.
There isnt a political solution. there never will be.
It is however going to be the enevitable conclusion.
Even if by their own hands
-
mmmm... The Hydra is conquerable but not ultimately defeatable...
(http://bama.ua.edu/~hock001/herc.jpg)
Herakles [Hercules] was assigned 10 labors by his cousin Eurystheus as punishment for killing his family in a moment of rage.
The myth of Herakles and the Hydra comes from his second labor. The Hydra, a mulit-headed snake creature that spewed venom from its mouth, was from Lerna which was a swampy area in the Peloponnesus.
During their battle, Herakles discovered that each time he cut off one of the Hydra's heads, two more would grow back in its place.
Herakles then ordered his nephew to stand on the neckstumps every time he cut off a head to prevent new ones from growing back.
After he finished cutting off all the heads, Herakles learned that the head in the center was immortal. In order to complete his labor, he buried the head under a huge rock, immobolizing it.
Unfortunately, since Herakles completed this labor with the help of his nephew, it did not count towards the ten he needed to complete.
-Paraphrased from Greek and Roman Mythology, written by Kirk Summers
-
odd. the version I read he burned the necks to prevent the heads from growing back.
Hence my statement
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
odd. the version I read he burned the necks to prevent the heads from growing back.
Hence my statement
I'm sure you did read that. It was all greek! Various interpretations and all, I think.
TIGERESS
EDIT: from another source:
Hercules’ second labor meant killing the feared serpent, Hydra of Lerna. Hydra had various heads, which frustrated Hercules because they were able to regenerate almost instantly after they were cut off. He realized that he was getting nowhere with the dreaded Hydra. Hercules enlisted the help of his nephew Iolaus, whom he had brought with him, to burn each neck of the Hydra with fire immediately after each head was cut off. Hercules would cut off a head, and Iolaus would set out to disable it. This worked until they both realized that one of Hydra’s heads was not to be stopped by the fire. Hercules buried this particular head underneath a rock and took his arrows out of his pouch, dousing them all with Hydra’s blood. The poisoned arrows would be invaluable to Hercules as he pursued his labors, but they would also lead to his undoing.
-from: http://dede.essortment.com/greekmythology_rnwn.htm
-
LOL ok.
But you still get my point.
Eventually the entire area is going ot be wiped clean.
I just dont see any other logical conclusion barring everyone suddenly.Falling in love with one another over there.
In that way, in a sense the last head will be literally buried under rock.
the epicenter of the extremism is in the ME.
As is the epicenter of the reasons for it.
Once the leadership and the reason for it is gone.
there will be nothing left to fight over
and its going ot happen sooner or later. Its just a matter of when and who starts it
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
LOL ok.
But you still get my point.
Eventually the entire area is going ot be wiped clean.
I just dont see any other logical conclusion barring everyone suddenly.Falling in love with one another over there.
In that way, in a sense the last head will be literally buried under rock.
the epicenter of the extremism is in the ME.
As is the epicenter of the reasons for it.
Once the leadership and the reason for it is gone.
there will be nothing left to fight over
and its going ot happen sooner or later. Its just a matter of when and who starts it
...and by the hand of a new age Hercules, no doubt.
Their religion is their strength and yet... their weakness.
They are vulnerable as you are saying.
Destroy that which they hold most dear just as they did on 911 and the future 911s, which no doubt with be massive... or hold it nuclear hostage with absolute follow-through to keep them at bay. But they are more emotional than logical, in my view.
I think they fear the reality of that more than dying.
TIGERESS
EDIT: I wonder if the origional Quran still exists...
-
This song, says much about how I feel about all this...
In The Shadows - The Rasmus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae8fbQy_xCQ)
No sleep
No sleep until I am done with finding the answer
Won't stop
Won't stop before I find a cure for this cancer
Sometimes
I feel like going down and so disconnected
Somehow
I know that I am haunted to be wanted
I've been watching
I've been waiting
In the shadows all my time
I've been searching
I've been living
For tomorrows all my life
In the shadows
They say
That I must learn to kill before I can feel safe
But I
I'd rather kill myself than turn into their slave
Sometimes
I feel that I should go and play with the thunder
Somehow
I just don't want to stay and wait for a wonder
I've been watching
I've been waiting
In the shadows all my time
I've been searching
I've been living
For tomorrows all my life
Lately I been walking walking in circles, watching waiting for something
Feel me, touch me, heal me, come take me higher
I've been watching
I've been waiting
In the shadows all my time
I've been searching
I've been living
For tomorrows all my life
I've been watching
I've been waiting
I've been searching
I've been living for tomorrows
In the shadows
I've been waiting
TIGERESS
-
tigress.. you did not get my point at all...
empathy has nothing to do with it... whether I like them as a people has nothing to do with it... whether I think their religion is right or wrong has nothing to do with it.
It is none of my business if a woman wants to be part of that religion... if she is being forced then that is different.
I would make freedom of religion the important right of every free person. I would defend a muslims right to be treated like a second class citizen if that is what she wanted... I would also allow her to leave any religion that forced it on her if she wished.
If a woman did not wear a burka or whatever and was attacked.. the attackers would be arrested and punished.. if she did wear one and was attacked by say...feminists.. the feminists would be arrested and punished.
It is simple stuff really... much more simple than songs and poetry walls of words.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
tigress.. you did not get my point at all...
empathy has nothing to do with it... whether I like them as a people has nothing to do with it... whether I think their religion is right or wrong has nothing to do with it.
It is none of my business if a woman wants to be part of that religion... if she is being forced then that is different.
I would make freedom of religion the important right of every free person. I would defend a muslims right to be treated like a second class citizen if that is what she wanted... I would also allow her to leave any religion that forced it on her if she wished.
If a woman did not wear a burka or whatever and was attacked.. the attackers would be arrested and punished.. if she did wear one and was attacked by say...feminists.. the feminists would be arrested and punished.
It is simple stuff really... much more simple than songs and poetry walls of words.
lazs
Question 1 was a yes/no; didnt ask for a wall of words lol
Songs and prose may or may not float your boat... to others they may.
But I am a multi-modal communicator as well as multi-tasking :)
So I am studying Lazs-Speak 101 but so far I am getting a D- hahahahaha
So how about questions 2, 3 & 4 ?
Two of them are yes/nos the other one is a do you own thing answer.
TIGERESS
-
are you just dense? I was replying to your accusation that I had no empathy.
but ok.. for the rest of your questions..
2).. I was baptized and went to catholic school.. since we have freedom of religion here.... I left the church at about age 14.. simple stuff. It did me no harm to be exposed to it and I was never forced to stay once I cam of age.
3)... more drivel... nothing is set in concrete.. see above. I was raised middle class.. I became a criminal and drug addict.. others ... raised poor became middle class... most people I know have changed from the religion of their parents.
all this needs a free society however.
4)..how many angles can dance on the head of a... pinhead... I don't even understand the question... children can't pick their parents. adults can choose how to live in a free society. If you don't have a free society then it matters not who your parents are.
There.. answered all your questions even tho... I am sure you thought they were clever and rhetorical.
It is essential that people are guarnteed their human rights... at that point... it matters very little who your parents were.. why do you think so many kids rebel against their parents? it is a human drive for individuality. this is of course, something that women understand less than men.
If a society is not free.. then who your parents are is even less meaningful. The government takes over the role when the child is of age.
I really don't expect you to understand any of this but feel free to insert a song or a poem that has nothing to do with the subject.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
are you just dense? I was replying to your accusation that I had no empathy.
but ok.. for the rest of your questions..
2).. I was baptized and went to catholic school.. since we have freedom of religion here.... I left the church at about age 14.. simple stuff. It did me no harm to be exposed to it and I was never forced to stay once I cam of age.
3)... more drivel... nothing is set in concrete.. see above. I was raised middle class.. I became a criminal and drug addict.. others ... raised poor became middle class... most people I know have changed from the religion of their parents.
all this needs a free society however.
4)..how many angles can dance on the head of a... pinhead... I don't even understand the question... children can't pick their parents. adults can choose how to live in a free society. If you don't have a free society then it matters not who your parents are.
There.. answered all your questions even tho... I am sure you thought they were clever and rhetorical.
It is essential that people are guarnteed their human rights... at that point... it matters very little who your parents were.. why do you think so many kids rebel against their parents? it is a human drive for individuality. this is of course, something that women understand less than men.
If a society is not free.. then who your parents are is even less meaningful. The government takes over the role when the child is of age.
I really don't expect you to understand any of this but feel free to insert a song or a poem that has nothing to do with the subject.
lazs
I swear, Lazs, you seem to put everything in context of yourself personally.
The gist of the whole thing was about empathy for other people and their circumstances of birth... not your personal situation of birth, dear! :)
soooo... whatever... what ever you say :) don't mean to upset you!
Thanks for answering :)
Seems like ever since my "60-mile leash" quip you haven't been civil to me anymore. I thought we were making progress. It was just a tease in fun! promise!
I still like you ok.
TIGERESS
-
again.. you are not reading and comprehending. I said that empathy had nothing to do with it.
You then asked me a bunch of questions about what "I" thought... I answered in that context. You asked me if I thought the rhetorical questions you asked were true.
I said that no... they were drivel. I explained not only my own situation but that of any person who was in a free country as opposed to one that was not.
I also think that I am being quite civil but trying to get you to not wander off into lala land is getting frustrating.
you ask questions... I answer.. you ignore the answers and call them a personal attack. The questions were stupid so I figured they didn't need answering... when you insisted.. I patiently explained how I could not agree with the premise laid out in the questions and why I could not.
do you disagree with any of my answers? is there something about em that you don't understand? something I am not clear on...or.. do you simply want to go on to the next subject or song or explain how none of it matters if you can't multitask?
I am not sure that multi-task means that you don't stay on one thread of thought long enough to get a grasp of it or even... that if that is what it means... that is is much of a good thing.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
again.. you are not reading and comprehending. I said that empathy had nothing to do with it.
You then asked me a bunch of questions about what "I" thought... I answered in that context. You asked me if I thought the rhetorical questions you asked were true.
I said that no... they were drivel. I explained not only my own situation but that of any person who was in a free country as opposed to one that was not.
I also think that I am being quite civil but trying to get you to not wander off into lala land is getting frustrating.
you ask questions... I answer.. you ignore the answers and call them a personal attack. The questions were stupid so I figured they didn't need answering... when you insisted.. I patiently explained how I could not agree with the premise laid out in the questions and why I could not.
do you disagree with any of my answers? is there something about em that you don't understand? something I am not clear on...or.. do you simply want to go on to the next subject or song or explain how none of it matters if you can't multitask?
I am not sure that multi-task means that you don't stay on one thread of thought long enough to get a grasp of it or even... that if that is what it means... that is is much of a good thing.
lazs
You are really upset about our superior multi-tasking brains, huh? lol :D
Did you ever read "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus"?
...a logical explaination of why we need, thus have, multi-tasking brains and you guys don't need, thus don't have, multi-tasking brains.
In reading the Quran it becomes apparent that it is addressed exclusively to men with very rare exceptions.
It's focus on men and its addressing to men is a singular theme throughout.
You would like it.
Oh, and Bat would like it too... you guys get to have up to four wives... not counting additional allowances of female slaves.
The Quran even goes into detail on wife beating instructions.
It's an owner's manual.
Browse the book.
TIGERESS
-
The Owners Manual : The Quran by Mohammed (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html)
How many of you will bother to read?
a quote from the Quran: [17.14] Read your book; your own self is sufficient as a reckoner against you this day.
TIGERESS
-
tigress.. have you ever read the bible?
Do you ever think about what you write? look at the bible. It is addressed to men and it has some real barbaric and intolerant stuff in it if....if.. you interpret it that way.
some real fundamental christian sects interpret the bible in such a way... playing with snakes and such...
I don't think I need to read self help books... you will notice of course that it is women who sucker for that drivel.. you have made self help charlatans and romance writers very rich as a gender. You have also helped build some of the most bizzare cults in history by following some "self help" male nutjob.
Moderate religious types of all religions are no threat to people.. extremists of all religions are a threat.
as for multitasking... if what women do is multitasking then... it is over rated. I will say that it should make them superior secretaries tho.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
tigress.. have you ever read the bible?
Do you ever think about what you write? look at the bible. It is addressed to men and it has some real barbaric and intolerant stuff in it if....if.. you interpret it that way.
some real fundamental christian sects interpret the bible in such a way... playing with snakes and such...
I don't think I need to read self help books... you will notice of course that it is women who sucker for that drivel.. you have made self help charlatans and romance writers very rich as a gender. You have also helped build some of the most bizzare cults in history by following some "self help" male nutjob.
Moderate religious types of all religions are no threat to people.. extremists of all religions are a threat.
as for multitasking... if what women do is multitasking then... it is over rated. I will say that it should make them superior secretaries tho.
lazs
I think "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" sheds a lot of light on the natures and interplay of male and female and should be required reading for all young adults.
It stands out.
And I totally agree with you that there are way too many people making money selling books for self-help.
My view is most, but not all, of it is a waste of money.
Yes, I have read many parts of the Holy Christian Bible, and yes it was written "by men; for men" ergo we have the ubiquitous term "Mankind" which should be "Humankind" when referring to the human race.
I have also studied Buddhism as well, and respect the wisdom and guidance of the origional Buddha. He was a man.
Complete male domination of women is historical... but not inevitable.
Man and Woman are partners... teammates. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Both are human... 100%
Not master and slave.
I acknowledge man's superior strength; I have often wished I was strong physically but I have multi-tasking to my side of the equation to compensate in another way.
Catholics often pray to Holy Mary, Mother of God.
"Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen. "
My individual, personal, believe is God is gender-less.
Most modern Christians have enough sense to ignore some of the Biblical instructions which do not apply to life in the modern age.
Blindly accepting Man as my master is something I choose to ignore.
I love and respect Man and give him his due, nonetheless.
TIGERESS
-
I am not surprised that you think self help pschobabble is useful.. it is because of your gender.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I am not surprised that you think self help pschobabble is useful.. it is because of your gender.
lazs
"Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" was written by a man, dear.
John Gray, Ph. D., is an internationally recognized expert on relationships.
TIGERESS
-
Of course it was... just as I have said in other threads... men write it to pander to womens weakness. It is women who buy into that crap.
Just as cults are formed by men but get women to follow them and thus... drag the men along.
lazs
-
i am happy that men and women are different, i just wish i could understand women. :confused
well maybe that's just part of the game, if we knew the all the answers it might not be as much fun.
-
Originally posted by john9001
i am happy that men and women are different, i just wish i could understand women. :confused
well maybe that's just part of the game, if we knew the all the answers it might not be as much fun.
an excerpt:
REMEMBERING OUR DIFFERENCES
Without the awareness that we are supposed to be different, men and women are at odds with each other. We usually become angry or frustrated with the opposite sex because we have forgotten this important truth. We expect the opposite sex to be more like ourselves. We desire them to "want what we want" and "feel the way we feel."
We mistakenly assume that if our partners love us they will react and behave in certain ways-the ways we react and behave when we love someone. This attitude sets us up to be disappointed again and again and prevents us from taking the necessary time to communicate lovingly about our differences.
In chapter 2 we will explore how men's and women's values are inherently different and try to understand the two biggest mistakes we make in relating to the opposite sex: men mistakenly offer solutions and invalidate feelings while women offer unsolicited advice and direction. Through understanding our Martian/Venusian background it becomes obvious why men and women unknowingly make these mistakes. By remembering these differences we can correct our mistakes and immediately respond to each other in more We will explore how to motivate the opposite sex in chapter 4. Men are motivated when they feel needed while women are motivated when they feel cherished. We will discuss the three steps for improving relationships and explore how to overcome our greatest challenges: men need to overcome their resistance to giving love while women must overcome their resistance to receiving it.
In chapter 5 you'll learn how men and women commonly misunderstand each other because they speak different languages. A Martian/Venusian Phrase Dictionary is provided to translate commonly misunderstood expressions. You will learn how men and women speak and even stop speaking for entirely different reasons. Women will learn what to do when a man stops talking, and men will learn how to listen better without becoming frustrated.
You should read it, imho, Lazs.
I am indeed, trying to communicate lovingly, about our differences, good natured teasing aside, and distain for outright male domination, notwithstanding.
I wish you would read it.
TIGERESS
-
"Without the awareness that we are supposed to be different, men and women are at odds with each other. We usually become angry or frustrated with the opposite sex because we have forgotten this important truth. We expect the opposite sex to be more like ourselves. We desire them to "want what we want" and "feel the way we feel."
This is just common sense that everyone already knows... men and women are different.
he could have stopped there.. but... he was trying to make a buck on gullible women who, unlike men... need to "understand" why people are the way they are. sooooo... rather than admit it and say "well... that's just the way it is".. he rattles off a crapload of pschobabble for anther umpteen hundred words and guess what...
None of it is usable and... that is the irony.. all them women buying all them self help books and in the end... it is useless.. if anything.. they are even more of a basket case trying to micromanage their feelings and relationships. Not willing to just let people be what they are and relationships run their course.
in the end.. the only "understanding" they get from the self help books is an illusion and only gets in the way of living the damn thing.
I think it is healthy tho that you admit a disdain for males.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
"Without the awareness that we are supposed to be different, men and women are at odds with each other. We usually become angry or frustrated with the opposite sex because we have forgotten this important truth. We expect the opposite sex to be more like ourselves. We desire them to "want what we want" and "feel the way we feel."
This is just common sense that everyone already knows... men and women are different.
he could have stopped there.. but... he was trying to make a buck on gullible women who, unlike men... need to "understand" why people are the way they are. sooooo... rather than admit it and say "well... that's just the way it is".. he rattles off a crapload of pschobabble for anther umpteen hundred words and guess what...
None of it is usable and... that is the irony.. all them women buying all them self help books and in the end... it is useless.. if anything.. they are even more of a basket case trying to micromanage their feelings and relationships. Not willing to just let people be what they are and relationships run their course.
in the end.. the only "understanding" they get from the self help books is an illusion and only gets in the way of living the damn thing.
I think it is healthy tho that you admit a disdain for males.
lazs
mmmmm... to quote myself lol "Blindly accepting Man as my master is something I choose to ignore. I love and respect Man and give him his due, nonetheless."
What I distain is outright male domination of me. There are plenty of men who don't do that... they dont need to... they dominate each other instead.
Few things are worse than living with a man who is a control freak. bleah
I think many men enjoy that domination thing amongst themselves... the who owns whom thing... its normal for men, isn't it? anyway, in my view it is. Look at the prize fighting game... or the nature of war itself.
TIGERESS
-
come on TIGERESS, you know you are attracted to a strong dominant male.
-
It is surely possible for a woman to feel like a man wants to dominate. The naked truth is that men are physicaly built stronger as a general rule. Many men are indeed guilty of wanting to dominate not just a woman but everything around them. Through the ages women have had thier fair share of things to kill some men for.
What i do see as a larger problem in today's society is women who judge all men to want to dominate them. the women who never let a relationship play fair and have to dominate all other aspects of life aside from physical might. This is an involuntary reaction to a woman's feeling of weakness as an animal creature against the male physique. These dominations of mind and soul are far more painfull to any man than a sound beating with a stick. In the end the man becomes a husk of a soul, and ceases to care. this hardness then prooves the woman right, she made him what she wanted so she could justify hating him.
Many good husbands have been driven into the dirt by a silently spitefull woman when all they would have used thier male power for would have been protection of the family to the death.
Men are equaly deluded and manipulative also i of course do not deny.
I just find it hard to see why some women will hold this evolutionary difference against men for so many thousands of years.
-
Originally posted by john9001
come on TIGERESS, you know you are attracted to a strong dominant male.
I admit it, John. I do.
I can be quoted from a previous post... I believe in the Women's Suffrage Thread. "It's like the moth and the flame."
But with that said, I do not allow myself to be mistreated and abused and said as much in that post.
Been there; done that.
I have a lot more self-respect and self-esteem than that, dear.
And what kind of a man would be happy with a woman who viewed herself as equivilant to dirt, thus allowing herself to be treated as such?
A man can be quite manly and powerful thus attractive and not treat women like dirt. And can be tender and loving with a woman without sacrifacing his maleness.
I have a very good friendship with a man... very much a man's man... a multi-veteran of both Afganistan and Iraq... a Marine Gunnery Sgt.
He has personally killed Al Quaeda and Taliban fighters and has been wounded in the process.
He would NEVER EVER think of mistreating me or any other woman... ever.
Nor would he tolerate reverse abuse.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by RedTop
Although she makes some good points , she is fighting a huge uphill battle in my opinion.
Muslims and Islam will never go away. We will be fighting this "War on Terror" until the end of time.
As long as US foreign policy meddles in their (mid east) business with negative consequences, it's obvious those who don't like the results (aka scary "terrorists") will desire pay-back.. as they have been for years and years.
These people are getting tired of foreign govts interference, they've been dealing with it for a long time. It seems every now and then some egomaniacal psychopath "leader" who thinks he has the military to do anything he wants, sets his sights on Iraq..
Who said this?: (hint the year was 1941, the plan: regime change in Baghdad) "The Arabian Freedom Movement in the Middle East is our natural ally... In this connection special importance is attached to the liberation of Iraq.." Answer here (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)
Oh yea, the old, literally, "democracy" in the mid east plan again... but I'm sure it will work this time. Different "leader", same designs.. or as some might say "same she-it, different year"
Why not just buy their oil and leave them alone?
Do we teach our kids to overthrow families and install puppet parents when another kid works against our kids interests? (Op Ajax) Do we tell little Johhny it's OK for him to manipulate kids into fighting, then to sell them both the arms they need to better kill each other? (Iran / Contra)... if my kid acted this way at school, he'd be considered a little A-hole... but I'd just tell him those angry kids were "terrorist" brats who hated his freedom.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
It is surely possible for a woman to feel like a man wants to dominate. The naked truth is that men are physicaly built stronger as a general rule. Many men are indeed guilty of wanting to dominate not just a woman but everything around them. Through the ages women have had thier fair share of things to kill some men for.
What i do see as a larger problem in today's society is women who judge all men to want to dominate them. the women who never let a relationship play fair and have to dominate all other aspects of life aside from physical might. This is an involuntary reaction to a woman's feeling of weakness as an animal creature against the male physique. These dominations of mind and soul are far more painfull to any man than a sound beating with a stick. In the end the man becomes a husk of a soul, and ceases to care. this hardness then prooves the woman right, she made him what she wanted so she could justify hating him.
Many good husbands have been driven into the dirt by a silently spitefull woman when all they would have used thier male power for would have been protection of the family to the death.
Men are equaly deluded and manipulative also i of course do not deny.
I just find it hard to see why some women will hold this evolutionary difference against men for so many thousands of years.
Bat wrote: "What i do see as a larger problem in today's society is women who judge all men to want to dominate them."
Tigeress replies: I know women like that... all of them I personally know have experienced physical and sexual abuse and cast all men in the same light as their abuser.
They are afraid of men. Tough situation for them.
There are also men who express views of women as brainless twits in so many words and have uses for them but not too many.
go figure...
I believe men and women like that are on the fringes of the bell curve in civilized societies and more the norm in Taliban like societies.
Bat, staying from hard core Political Man-Hating Femi-Nazis is my recommendation. They become what they do not like.
Those women just don't get it, imo.
TIGERESS
-
yes tigeress, in the same way as someone who gets hit by a car may be more carefull of all cars from then on. as i said, i realise that both the sexes have very real reasons to dislike the opposite after whatever abuses they may inflict on one another.
but then there are the women who listen to the horror story of one woman and without actualy experiencing any abuse personaly still manage to get to the same point of conflict with males.
personaly i get on with males or females equaly well in most cases i am merely pointing out that both men and women are just as rotten to each other given the inclination.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
yes tigeress, in the same way as someone who gets hit by a car may be more carefull of all cars from then on. as i said, i realise that both the sexes have very real reasons to dislike the opposite after whatever abuses they may inflict on one another.
but then there are the women who listen to the horror story of one woman and without actualy experiencing any abuse personaly still manage to get to the same point of conflict with males.
personaly i get on with males or females equaly well in most cases i am merely pointing out that both men and women are just as rotten to each other given the inclination.
Quite so... quite so. Men hold no exclusive claim to dealing out emotional abuse. Some women can be brutal.
I hope you don't think I am like that...
TIGERESS
-
no way! My appologies I am too free with my thoughts and forget what i might look like saying. nothing was directed at you one bit, i was merely interested in the debate between lazs and yourself. depite the fact i am judging women and defending men here i am also willing to admit that men have done great wrong to women also, maybe more so. As Lazs says, women and men are different in the same way it is foolish to tell a white and a black person that they are exactly the same. the ways men and women hurt each other are very different yet totaly equal in cruelty when things are all added up.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
no way! My appologies I am too free with my thoughts and forget what i might look like saying. nothing was directed at you one bit, i was merely interested in the debate between lazs and yourself. depite the fact i am judging women and defending men here i am also willing to admit that men have done great wrong to women also, maybe more so. As Lazs says, women and men are different in the same way it is foolish to tell a white and a black person that they are exactly the same. the ways men and women hurt each other are very different yet totaly equal in cruelty when things are all added up.
Thank you, Bat.
I very much agree with your expressed sentiments, too.
I am usually one of the first to defend men when they get dumped on and bashed.
Somewhere is a comfortable and fair middle ground for both.
Love does not conquer all. Choose one's mate well.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
As long as US foreign policy meddles in their (mid east) business with negative consequences, it's obvious those who don't like the results (aka scary "terrorists") will desire pay-back.. as they have been for years and years.
These people are getting tired of foreign govts interference, they've been dealing with it for a long time. It seems every now and then some egomaniacal psychopath "leader" who thinks he has the military to do anything he wants, sets his sights on Iraq..
Who said this?: (hint the year was 1941, the plan: regime change in Baghdad) "The Arabian Freedom Movement in the Middle East is our natural ally... In this connection special importance is attached to the liberation of Iraq.." Answer here (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)
Oh yea, the old, literally, "democracy" in the mid east plan again... but I'm sure it will work this time. Different "leader", same designs.. or as some might say "same she-it, different year"
Why not just buy their oil and leave them alone?
Do we teach our kids to overthrow families and install puppet parents when another kid works against our kids interests? (Op Ajax) Do we tell little Johhny it's OK for him to manipulate kids into fighting, then to sell them both the arms they need to better kill each other? (Iran / Contra)... if my kid acted this way at school, he'd be considered a little A-hole... but I'd just tell him those angry kids were "terrorist" brats who hated his freedom.
Thanks for your post, x0847Marine.
Welcome to the thread. Its gotten slightly hi-jacked by innocent tangent but your post swings it back on topic.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Its gotten a little hi-jacked
i prefer to think of it as creative discourse :D
-
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Thanks for your post, x0847Marine.
Welcome to the thread. Its gotten slightly hi-jacked by innocent tangent but your post swings it back on topic.
TIGERESS
I tend to skip around and didn't notice to hi-jack, but now I'm intrigued and will go back and read it!
-
xmarine... since you are back on topic.. maybe you can finally answer a question that none of you cut and run types has yet.
What should we do? oh... I know... run away and let em fend for themselves on top of all that oil... they will sell it to us right? you said they would.. why would they bother to boycott us and sell it to say.. china?
And.. just because the people who would fund terrorists would then be free to operate and have unlimited funds to do so... that doesn't mean they would do bad things to us.. like say.. run an airliner into some buildings or smuggle dirty nukes in to vaporize a few blue cities... yours probly first.
Soo... real easy for you to critique what is being done.. but.. you have no answer.. every answer you have.. every way you would handle it.. leads to disaster.. real disaster for us right here at home.
Now.. the bad guys are fighting and dieing there... the guys doing the killing are doing it of their own free will and not whining like you are. No attacks have happened here.. we haven't been boycotted and we may... just may.... end up with a free nation in the region that is an ally besides israel.
Compare that to anything you can come up with... "just walk away and buy the oil" is not really much of a plan now is it?
lazs
-
The plan lazs is to simply make everything the republicans do appear as a mistake or failure. Then the democrats can take over and take care of everything.
-
Oh.. it is maybe not that simple but... what they want is to pull out and.. use the money on social programs.. maybe fund the socialized medicine for a few years.
When things go bad.. oil goes up.. bombs go off.. terrorists with plane tickets and forged papers blow themselves up in malls...
They can blame that on the mistakes made by the previous admin. Some truth exists... there were mistakes made but... the big lie will be that we weren't safer and better off now than while they are in power..
When we pull out.. if we do it without stabalizing the government... it will get ugly... here and there. We need to finish up.. "stay the course" is simplistic but correct.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
xmarine... since you are back on topic.. maybe you can finally answer a question that none of you cut and run types has yet.
What should we do? oh... I know... run away and let em fend for themselves on top of all that oil... they will sell it to us right? you said they would.. why would they bother to boycott us and sell it to say.. china?
And.. just because the people who would fund terrorists would then be free to operate and have unlimited funds to do so... that doesn't mean they would do bad things to us.. like say.. run an airliner into some buildings or smuggle dirty nukes in to vaporize a few blue cities... yours probly first.
Soo... real easy for you to critique what is being done.. but.. you have no answer.. every answer you have.. every way you would handle it.. leads to disaster.. real disaster for us right here at home.
Now.. the bad guys are fighting and dieing there... the guys doing the killing are doing it of their own free will and not whining like you are. No attacks have happened here.. we haven't been boycotted and we may... just may.... end up with a free nation in the region that is an ally besides israel.
Compare that to anything you can come up with... "just walk away and buy the oil" is not really much of a plan now is it?
lazs
We should apologize for the "oops" of having zero justification to occupy Iraq, a lunatic president, and negotiate the safe withdrawal of every last US troop while agreeing to pay hefty amounts of "sorry we broke your country" re-building $$ to mid east & euro companies.
A few million bucks cash and contracts to local tribesmen has already worked to reduce violence, why won't it work to get our troops out? Re-read the article How Bush became the new Saddam, it only took W 5 years to figure out Saddams policy of paying the locals actually works. As of today, US tax dollars go directly to groups like The 1920 revolutionary brigade, who have produced dozens of videos boasting their handy work sniping / blowing up US troops. These dudes are all about the drama of greed and power, stroking their egos with cash works, treating them with disrespect & indifference doesn't.
If they boycott the US, so be it... thank your local republican, can't say we don't deserve it after the abhorrent reduction on their entire nation into the stone age based on low budget fiction. Lets not forget, it's their oil, not ours, who they decide to sell it to is none of our business. Yes dear, that means sell the SUV.
I don't buy into the crystal ball gazers who look into the future and see doom & gloom if US forces leave, where the evidence of this? have the Iraqis stated "when you leave, we're going to tear crap up"? has anyone considered the occupation IS the cause? or is that too painful to admit.
Believe it or not the Bush administration are not the only people in the world capable of bringing peace to Iraq, actually they are probably the least qualified and proven the least competent. I'm sure the world community, Iraqs neighbors & the UN et al can figure something out to stabilize Iraq... we wore out our welcome and credibility a long time ago.
Frankly I don't care even if Iraq does go to crap, that entire country isn't worth the life of 1 US troop. Why send American boys thousands of miles to do a job Iraqi boys should be doing for themselves?
I also don't buy into the foot stomping patriotic emotional who-ha of "losing a war", "running away", "cut and run", "dying in vain" or any of that bumper sticker opinion rhetoric, this "war" was justified based on 100% pure Texas manure, cowboy-up, admit to being wrong, and pay for the mess we created... send the bill to the neoclowns & RNC with a "thank you for screwing us" love note.
Yea its a real harsh on the US mellow to eat hefty amounts of Crow, but that's what happens when our leaders pork the pooch this bad.. I'd rather have a stomach full of Crow than 4,000 more dead and 20,000+ maimed US troops.
-
x0847Marine, you are so far gone there no hope for you.
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
We should apologize for the "oops" of having zero justification to occupy Iraq, a lunatic president, and negotiate the safe withdrawal of every last US troop while agreeing to pay hefty amounts of "sorry we broke your country" re-building $$ to mid east & euro companies.
If it weren't for the FACT that Iraq invaded Kuwait and our giving them ample opportunity to withdraw peacefully and when they refused that, our invasion, and their unconditional surrender but then refusing to comply with the conditions we set for 12 years I would agree with you.
-
well... ron paul is advocating to cut and run... so how is it that he won latest republican debate and why is it that he has highest amount of political contributions from military personnel than any other runner?
maybe being a paper patriot and talking to vets during checkout isn't all it's cracked up to be.
-
Originally posted by Torque
well... ron paul is advocating to cut and run... so how is it that he won latest republican debate and
i don't think so, maybe in your mind.
-
Originally posted by Torque
well... ron paul is advocating to cut and run... so how is it that he won latest republican debate and why is it that he has highest amount of political contributions from military personnel than any other runner?
And these "facts" come from what "source"?
-
Originally posted by AKIron
If it weren't for the FACT that Iraq invaded Kuwait and our giving them ample opportunity to withdraw peacefully and when they refused that, our invasion, and their unconditional surrender but then refusing to comply with the conditions we set for 12 years I would agree with you.
Oh, I thought this was about imaginary WMDs, mushroom clouds and all that.
But I have a question for the pro-"war" peeps, how many more US troops lives, arms and legs is Iraq worth? 20,000+ more wounded 4,000 more dead?
No, it's not a fair question, but this is where rhetoric meets reality, all the who-rah slap happy macho patriotism smack means more dead young Americans..."stay the course" until 10,000 are dead? 40,000 armless / leg less vets worth whatever the point is in Iraq these days?
-
ok xmarine.. so now we know your solution.. we pull out and "apologize" for getting rid of one of the worlds most brutal dictators.. one his people couldn't wait to hang.
Now.. that is phase one of your plan.. just do a saigon and try to get everyone out in a week.... then...
Then you say we pay reparations... to who? there will be no government. Three or four factions including the most violent suicide bomber islamofacists will all be killing each other in some chaotic hell.. who do you give the money too? and... if the facists win... do you still give it to them to "help build infrastructure"
and then you say.. so what if they boycott us.... it will all be worth it because...
because we can blame your hated republicans. That really is the meat of your idea isn't it.. cut and run and watch things go to crap and then... blame the republicans...
When gas is $10 a gallon and you have to wait in line... that will be good because.. you can blame the republicans... when a few blue cities are vaporized or the local school or mall gets suicide bombed.. no big loss if you can.... blame the republicans..
even tho... the republicans are in now and none of those things are happening with their way of doing it.
it just seems that like all lefties... you haven't thought this out.. that your hate is driving you and keeping you from thinking it through.
It's a mess.. I agree but.. the people we have to deal with are a mess. We had to face it sooner or later...
In the meantime... throw out the democrats and build some nuke plants and drill offshore and in alaska for some damn oil while we are learning to do something else.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2 It's a mess.. I agree but.. the people we have to deal with are a mess. We had to face it sooner or later... [/B]
Lazs, if a Lib typed what I quoted, you'd be all over them.
-
And xmarine... how many lives is it worth? well.. just having an army costs 150 men a year.. more.. in training accidents. one terrorist attack can kill between 10,000 and a million.. the disruption of suicide attacks is also worth something.
We haven't had any of those. we cut and run and we will have. As for the cost? ask the soldiers serving.. not me.
I say let the soldiers decide. So long as they think we are doing the right think I support them. Your question was a womanly and cowardly one. You trivialize their sacrafice with it.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
ok xmarine.. so now we know your solution.. we pull out and "apologize" for getting rid of one of the worlds most brutal dictators.. one his people couldn't wait to hang.
Now.. that is phase one of your plan.. just do a saigon and try to get everyone out in a week.... then...
Then you say we pay reparations... to who? there will be no government. Three or four factions including the most violent suicide bomber islamofacists will all be killing each other in some chaotic hell.. who do you give the money too? and... if the facists win... do you still give it to them to "help build infrastructure"
and then you say.. so what if they boycott us.... it will all be worth it because...
because we can blame your hated republicans. That really is the meat of your idea isn't it.. cut and run and watch things go to crap and then... blame the republicans...
When gas is $10 a gallon and you have to wait in line... that will be good because.. you can blame the republicans... when a few blue cities are vaporized or the local school or mall gets suicide bombed.. no big loss if you can.... blame the republicans..
even tho... the republicans are in now and none of those things are happening with their way of doing it.
it just seems that like all lefties... you haven't thought this out.. that your hate is driving you and keeping you from thinking it through.
It's a mess.. I agree but.. the people we have to deal with are a mess. We had to face it sooner or later...
In the meantime... throw out the democrats and build some nuke plants and drill offshore and in alaska for some damn oil while we are learning to do something else.
lazs
No, we apologize for the death, disease and millions of displaced people due to our govts incompetence. The Iraqi army & police were standing by ready to quell the rioting and violence, waiting for an order... the Bush administration told them they no longer had jobs. It all but insured a power vacuum that was quickly filled by gangs & criminals, the easily predictable result was chaos & violence... and it's all the US's fault... done in my name and yours.
We apologize for invading on the false pretense of imaginary WMDs. If a cop arrested & threw you in jail for possession of WMD, yet none were found, you'd be free as soon as your lawyer filed a motion... thats the American way, due process. No matter how bad and evil the DA said you were, you get to go about your business if theres no evidence.
In this case the UN is the court, and they didn't give Bush authorization to occupy Iraq.. case dismissed, unless you're USA... apparently we can ignore international treaties to the determent of millions, while insisting Iran et al obey them to the letter.
You can thank the republican neoclowns for the price of gas, this is their war... this is all part of the PNAC plan laid out years ago, Wolfwhiz once said after the collapse of the USSR, USA was the "new Rome". Thank the democrats for being spineless liars.
Our leaders lied and screwed up, the result: untold thousands, perhaps over 1 million, are dead, dying of disease and displaced... thats why we apologize.
Imagine your an average Iraqi, you have a job, provide for the fam, pay your bills, take the kids to soccer games on the weekend in your suburban neighborhood. Next thing you know the USA comes in, wrecks everything to where the sewage flows in the streets and garbage piles up. Criminal gangs loot & pillage everything you have, friends & neighbors are killed / kidnapped.. and there is no authority to stop any of it. The USA promises a-lot, and delivers anarchy... with Abu Ghraib torture just for kicks.
Next thing you know your family is wandering from one disease filled refugee pit to another. Would that make you bitter? pick up a gun for some payback maybe? Wouldn't you want someone to man-up, apologize profusely for the mistakes and offer to help you rebuild your life? Or would you rather have them smugly chuckle at any suggestion of wrong-doing, turn a blind eye to the death, filth and suffering they caused as if it just didn't matter...
Now imagine the million or so angry folks out there this applies to... thats why we apologize.
But I see you cant make the tough decision of how many US troops lives Iraq is worth... your not alone, neither can congress. Then again its real easy to insist others put their lives on the line from the cumfy confines of home behind a keyboard. I served 88-92 desert shield / storm, and every minute of the 92 LA riots as a police officer, I've been there done that.. what always amused me were the ones at home eating Doritos with nothing to lose insisting "we" fight on, kick some ******* booty and all that macho patriotic drivel without even considering if my life was worth the cause. If the boot were on the other foot, I'd gladly sacrifice your life so my gas wasn't $5.00 a gallon... but not mine or anyone I care about. So you have my permission to sign up, or join the blackwater mercs and go die in Iraq.
I made up my mind, our troops are worth more than protecting the interests of the US companies making billions off this "war", the Bush administration are not the only people on this planet that can figure out a solution.. they had their change and blew it in grand fashion... and thats not our troops fault, they shouldn't continue to pay for politicians incompetence with their lives, arms and legs.
Last... Saddam had zero motivation to pursue WMDs or nukes at that time, which was why he agreed to UN inspections that found nothing... why? sanctions were going to be lifted, he was getting ready to make BILLIONS and turn the Iraq economy around big time by selling oil in euros... EU companies were lined up, and "western" powers were going to be locked out. He was about to stomp on the US dollar and make enough $$ to render any US sanctions meaningless. If he wanted a nuke or wmds, he'd have plenty of euros to buy them in a few years, but at the time he agreed to whatever it took to get the sanctions lifted.
Iran is about to do the exact same, 5 years from now they'll be filthy rich and will have enough cheese to laugh at US sanctions, buy all of China & Russia's coolest weapons, and they'll enjoy a-lot of leverage by being the exclusive supplier of the worlds crude in euros. With their traditional enemy Saddam gone, thanks to the USA, they're about to become a mid east power... maybe Bush should apologize for that too.
-
you are not only getting ahead of yourself but making a lot of assumptions and false statements.
The sadman was not invaded and deposed because he had WMD's so much as that he wouldn't allow us to inspect to see if he really did.. we could not take his word for it because... well... he never told the truth in his life. you have no idea if he was working on getting more... neither did anyone else... we do know that he always did in his entire career.. every chance he got.
So who do we apologize to? the 3 or four factions who would butcher each other for power if we pulled out now?
and what for? for letting the people be allowed to have free elections? Is that what we apologize for? for allowing them to hang the most hated man in their country?
The UN is not the court.. it is a corrupt and inept political body who, if anyone, needs to do the bent knee apologizing to the iraqi people for its "oil for food" scam.
None of that of course.. solves anything. none of it helps them obtain a stable government or fix the infrastructure.. cut and run and throw money at whatever warlord intercepts the plane is not a real plan.
You have no plan... if they attack us here... you have no plan.. we have no base. If they boycott us... blaming the republicans is not exactly a brilliant plan... tho.. I am sure you would feel better doing it.. it doesn't help the rest of us at the pump.
The price our solders pay? they are volunteers. That does count for something in my book.. I will support them by listening to them and what they and their generals think needs to be done...
lazs
-
and hap... not sure what you mean.
The people are a mess.. their religion, at worst.. keeps em in the 9th century.. at best... somewhere between the 9th and the 19th.
They are a mess because they can't keep religion and government apart and because they have a culture of being dominated by dictators... royal or religious or whatever.
hard things to overcome.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
you are not only getting ahead of yourself but making a lot of assumptions and false statements.
The sadman was not invaded and deposed because he had WMD's so much as that he wouldn't allow us to inspect to see if he really did.. we could not take his word for it because... well... he never told the truth in his life. you have no idea if he was working on getting more... neither did anyone else... we do know that he always did in his entire career.. every chance he got.
So who do we apologize to? the 3 or four factions who would butcher each other for power if we pulled out now?
and what for? for letting the people be allowed to have free elections? Is that what we apologize for? for allowing them to hang the most hated man in their country?
The UN is not the court.. it is a corrupt and inept political body who, if anyone, needs to do the bent knee apologizing to the iraqi people for its "oil for food" scam.
None of that of course.. solves anything. none of it helps them obtain a stable government or fix the infrastructure.. cut and run and throw money at whatever warlord intercepts the plane is not a real plan.
You have no plan... if they attack us here... you have no plan.. we have no base. If they boycott us... blaming the republicans is not exactly a brilliant plan... tho.. I am sure you would feel better doing it.. it doesn't help the rest of us at the pump.
The price our solders pay? they are volunteers. That does count for something in my book.. I will support them by listening to them and what they and their generals think needs to be done...
lazs
What your failing to grasp about "The American way", is that even if the suspect is a lying sack of crap who tells the police to f off, the .gov cant ignore the law and kill him just because he's a jerkoff... the DA still needs evidence, proof, something other than fictional rhetoric and photoshop images of scary looking mobile WMD factories of death that only exist in the Bushs imagination..
Your opinion of the UN is neat, really, the only problem is the US agreed via treaties to be bound by "the rules", like it or not they are the worlds "court" when it comes to conflict... and they weren't impressed enough by the evidence to authorize this "war". Next time you get arrested, declare the court "corrupt" and "Inept", call the judge a puppet clown... just ignore the rules like Bush did... then count the seconds until the bailiff stomps you into pablum. I'd give you 90 sec before his boot and your sphincter were intimate.
The bottom line is you're willing to see more US troops killed & maimed, and I agree with Sgt. Victor Alarcon who opined: "I don't think this place is worth another soldier's life."
Article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/26/AR2007102602402.html?sid=ST2007102900845)
Just in case you may think Bush and his merry band of neoclowns are the first sociopaths to eye Iraqs resources, and used "freedom" in the mid east rhetoric to mask their intentions... I mean, who could be against freedom?
"The Arabian Freedom Movement in the Middle East is our natural ally... In this connection special importance is attached to the liberation of Iraq..." --Adolph Hitler 1941
To the Iraqi people, we're just another set of foreigners there to take their oil, same she-it different "leader",... and Bushs Iraq oil law only makes it obvious: Iraq will have 19 oil fields under its control and 100 percent of the oil proceeds... The other 59 oil fields belong to companies on 30 year leases, 80% of oil profits go to the companies, 20% to the Iraqi people... companies mostly from the US...gee what a coincidence huh?... on top of that it would be illegal for Iraq to nationalize its oil... at least they're transparent about their greed.
Hunt oil, Hunt is W's good ole bud from manure patch, is set to make billions... something tells me Hunt might donate more to republican causes than he already has... and it only cost about 600,000 dead and a few million displaced Iraqis to secure these deals.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
and hap... not sure what you mean.
The people are a mess.. their religion, at worst.. keeps em in the 9th century.. at best... somewhere between the 9th and the 19th.
They are a mess because they can't keep religion and government apart and because they have a culture of being dominated by dictators... royal or religious or whatever.
hard things to overcome.
lazs
I agree entirely with what you wrote above. Hard things are difficult to over come. And a point can be made either way, "when religion gets mixed in" or when "great sums of money get mixed in" things are difficult.
A 3rd can be added, "when large doses of the media get mixed in" too.
Have been reading Hiliare Belloc's book "The Great Heresies." Predcient section on Mohammadanism. Worth a ready by everyone. But many will have prejudices that will cause their mind to snap shut.
What to do, what to do . . . . It needs to be faced down. Not ignored in the hope it goes away and everyone learns to play nice. Kooks with nukes. Not good.
-
hap... I agree.. kooks with nukes is a bad thing... guys like xmarine don't get that.. they think that we are dealing with just some future "undocumented Americans" or some such.
xmarine.. you are all over the map... you are confusing police with military... that never works.. it is bad when military act like police but far worse when police act like military.. If I ever get arrested by the UN then yeah... I will not only declare it corrupt but know it. If our police ever swear alligance to the UN and help them round up our people then it is time to shoot cops.
the UN is not the world court and certainly not our ruler. It puts the biggest butchers on the planet in charge of human rights.. It steals money and goods from countries and runs from fights.
The sanctions were theirs... not ours. they just wanted to milk more money out of the deal with their "food for oil" swindle. we, on the other hand had a security problem and a certified nutjob attacking allies who was very into being a nuke power.. who had no compunctions about torturing thousands every year and gassing his own people.
I will be glad to listen to any soldier or general who is there now or recently who thinks it is a bad idea.. problem is.. I talk to the soldiers coming back and they all say it is rough but a good thing. There are people on this board who have been there and they seem to say that too...
but in the end... you have no solution but to stew in your bitterness... sitting home and railing against the republicans for whatever reason.
you don't like em.. you claim to be a libertarian but you have socialist ideas. you are most likely a democrat and just won't admit it.. you want to be hip but you want people to take care of you.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Hap
I agree entirely with what you wrote above. Hard things are difficult to over come. And a point can be made either way, "when religion gets mixed in" or when "great sums of money get mixed in" things are difficult.
A 3rd can be added, "when large doses of the media get mixed in" too.
Have been reading Hiliare Belloc's book "The Great Heresies." Predcient section on Mohammadanism. Worth a ready by everyone. But many will have prejudices that will cause their mind to snap shut.
What to do, what to do . . . . It needs to be faced down. Not ignored in the hope it goes away and everyone learns to play nice. Kooks with nukes. Not good.
If nothing else, the Militant/Extremist Islamists, over the centuries, have proven time and again... they are not going to go away... that they have dominated the Islamist masses into bowing down to them for centuries... in the name of the Quran.
Now they have access to 21-Century weapons of serious mass distruction.
Moscow, Beijing, and Pyongyang are playing the Militant/Extremist Islamists against the Western powers, and making money at it.
TIGERESS
-
now you are getting the point tigress.. xmarine does not.
They are not going to go away and they will get WMD's that everyone is upset bush didn't find...
We will have to face them at some point.. it is like the cold war... the commies really wanted to enslave the planet. we had to fight them.. sometimes.. not at the best time or place.
we are doing better with the islamofacists.. we are doing it relatively without pain to us.. how much pain is it causing you? the soldiers are volunteers.. very few are dying. the cost is not that bad.. the money would have been pissed away on social programs that hurt our freedom anyway.
I just don't see how we can do anything else? can we wait for more and more of em to live in the 9th century with 21st century weapons?
lazs
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
What your failing to grasp about "The American way", is that even if the suspect is a lying sack of crap who tells the police to f off, the .gov cant ignore the law and kill him just because he's a jerkoff... the DA still needs evidence, proof,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Next time you get arrested, declare the court "corrupt" and "Inept", call the judge a puppet clown... just ignore the rules like Bush did... then count the seconds until the bailiff stomps you into pablum. I'd give you 90 sec before his boot and your sphincter were intimate.
you are confusing me , make up your mind.
does the bailiff have to get the ok from the DA before he puts his boot into your sphincter?
-------------------------------------------------------
oh and "neoclowns" was a great play on neocon, neonazi,
i prefer "neolib" myself.
-
x0847Marine's posts go towards my initial contention... that what we have been doing isn't working.
I think there is a lot of common ground to be shared here between all parties looking at the problem... and formulating a real solution, though no doubt bitter pill it will be.
Vietnam was an example of history repeating itself... and not heeded.
The French in Indochina (Vietnam)... the Russians in Afghanistan.
I am a student of history.
No one in history has killed this Hydra once and for all.
They hide behind a veil of Religious Immunity.
If all else fails on a given day at a given place and time they literally hide in an important mosque.
I say blast that mosque of Militant/Extremist Islamic refuge to kingdom come and let the real powers behind the tide of current and future events, surface.
No one seems willing to take on the Quran itself.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Vietnam was an example of history repeating itself... and not heeded.
Since we are republic, a nation founded upon a constitution and law, we can't just kill all the dissenters that caused us to ultimately fail in Vietnam. We also can't afford to let those of the same mindset cause us to fail in the Middle East now. I'd almost rather see it come to a civil war in this country than give in to them this time around.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Since we are republic, a nation founded upon a constitution and law, we can't just kill all the dissenters that caused us to ultimately fail in Vietnam. We also can't afford to let those of the same mindset cause us to fail in the Middle East now. I'd almost rather see it come to a civil war in this country than give in to them this time around.
I don't think "dissenters" caused the failure of the US in Vietnam anymore than they caused the "Failure of the French" there.
There will always be dissention on everything and that is probably not such a bad thing. Need to look at all angles even if some points of view are in lala land.
My Dad served in Vietnam... dissention was stuff other families did... not us.
TIGERESS
-
Lessons of History
French Indochina War (http://www.olive-drab.com/od_history_vietnam_french.php)
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I don't think "dissenters" cause the failure of the US in Vietnam anymore than they caused the "Failure of the French" there.
There will always be dissention on everything and that is probably not such a bad thing. Need to look at all angles even if some points of view are in lala land.
My Dad served in Vietnam... dissention was stuff other families did... not us.
TIGERESS
I wasn't advocating killing the dissenters but they did in fact cause us to lose Vietnam to the commies. Dissent is protected by the constitution and I would have it no other way. I might be willing to fight even to the death however those whose position of dissent would ultimately destroy our country. Not for dissenting but for their position.
Communism had a serious setback with the fall of the USSR but is alive and well in China and may bury us yet, if the middle eastern terrorists don't first that is.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I don't think "dissenters" cause the failure of the US in Vietnam anymore than they caused the "Failure of the French" there.
the north vietnamese said the dissenters in the USA helped their cause, it helped their morale and let them know that even tho they were losing the war if they just hung on for a little wile longer the americans would run away. They would show the news reels of the protests in the streets of america to their people.
that's not a opinion, that's fact, and that's what al qaeda is counting on.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
I wasn't advocating killing the dissenters but they did in fact cause us to lose Vietnam to the commies. Dissent is protected by the constitution and I would have it no other way. I might be willing to fight even to the death however those whose position of dissent would ultimately destroy our country. Not for dissenting but for their position.
Communism had a serious setback with the fall of the USSR but is alive and well in China and may bury us yet, if the middle eastern terrorists don't first that is.
Respectfully, I submit that failure to achieve stated goals gave rise to the dissent. Chicken and Egg thang...
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by john9001
the north vietnamese said the dissenters in the USA helped their cause, it helped their morale and let them know that even tho they were losing the war if they just hung on for a little wile longer the americans would run away. They would show the news reels of the protests in the streets of america to their people.
that's not a opinion, that's fact, and that's what al qaeda is counting on.
I believe that. I also believe "Hanoi Jane" help galvinize resolve to stay the course.
We lost; they won. I hate that.
In business... ISO9000, we have a saying...
Say what you do; Do what you say.
We went there to defeat communism expansion. We failed. period.
I am afraid any time the USA get floundered neck deep in a quagmire the dissenters are going to play pile on.
Don't get floundered.
TIGERESS
-
The anti-war activists didn't just encourage the enemy. They prevented us from doing what was necessary to win in Vietnam. Bush's biggest mistake imo was in believing we had the necessary resolve to see a war against the Islamofacists through.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I believe that. I also believe "Hanoi Jane" help galvinize resolve to stay the course.
We lost; they won. I hate that.
TIGERESS
you need to reread history.
nixion forced them to sign the paris peace accords where they withdrew from the south and ceased fighting......then
nixion resigns
democratic congress cuts off ALL military aid to the south.
after two years the north invades the south and ford refuses to send US troops back in.
the south falls.
you call it a loss, i call it betrayal.
-
Originally posted by john9001
you need to reread history.
nixion forced them to sign the paris peace accords where they withdrew from the south and ceased fighting......then
nixion resigns
democratic congress cuts off ALL military aid to the south.
after two years the north invades the south and ford refuses to send US troops back in.
the south falls.
you call it a loss, i call it betrayal.
Betrayal is a loss.
Screwing around with a "police action"... you can fly here but not there...
Ok now you can bomb Hanoi... ok, stop now... lets let them rebuild again.
There were serious blunders... on the left and the right.
Nixon did himself in... to the detriment of the country.
No one made him break the law... in my view he let us down and in doing so gave control to the lefties.
Politically I sit in the middle with a bit more right leanings than left.
So don't expect me to take sides. Left or Right... plenty of blame to go round that both political parties deserve.
I am Pro-USA, all the way.
If what we are doing in the middle east was really working...
I doubt anyone would listen to the cut-n-runners.
Now... the righties will give up and let the lefties have a go and they will also fail, no doubt. Then everybody can blame everybody and it just goes round and round.
No one seems to have a solution.
This is solvable or else we may as well start saying our six prayers a day and start fasting during Ramadan which is coming up on the 17th of November for a month. And I will go shopping for a stylish burka.
(http://www.geert-meike.nl/im/anti-burka-wet)
Oh, and no more pron and beer for you guys... ever.
Get the job done.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Nixon did himself in... to the detriment of the country.
No one made him break the law... in my view he let us down and in doing so gave control to the lefties.
actually according to the white house tapes nixon knew nothing about the break in and wanted to ' tell all', it was his advisor john dean that convinced nixon to "stonewall", of course when dean was called before congress he sung like a birdy and blamed it all on nixon.
i read the transcript of the white house tapes.
-
Originally posted by john9001
actually according to the white house tapes nixon knew nothing about the break in and wanted to ' tell all', it was his advisor john dean that convinced nixon to "stonewall", of course when dean was called before congress he sung like a birdy and blamed it all on nixon.
i read the transcript of the white house tapes.
I am aware of that John.
Picking the right people for cabinet positions is an important job and every President is reminded to do so with care. For like Judas they can bite you. Classic act of betrayal… and it was a loss for the whole country.
The Buck Stops with the president... good or bad.
I fondly remember Reagan displaying that sign on his oval office desk.
(http://www.finfacts.com/img/O-buck.jpg)
The blame game is for loosers, imho.
Winners have no need of it.
Figure out the SOLUTION.
THEN... get the job done.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I am aware of that John.
Picking the right people for cabinet positions is an important job and every President is reminded to do so with care. For like Judas they can bite you. Classic act of betrayal… and it was a loss for the whole country.
The Buck Stops with the president... good or bad.
I fondly remember Reagan displaying that sign on his oval office desk.
(http://www.finfacts.com/img/O-buck.jpg)
The blame game is for loosers, imho.
Winners have no need of it.
Figure out the SOLUTION.
THEN... get the job done.
TIGERESS
Inasmuch as this is true, Tigress...It was Harry S. Truman who put that on the oval-office desk in the first place. It's been there ever since. But not all who've passed through that office have paid heed to it.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Inasmuch as this is true, Tigress...It was Harry S. Truman who put that on the oval-office desk in the first place. It's been there ever since. But not all who've passed through that office have paid heed to it.
I wasn't aware of Harry first doing that, thanks for that, Frode.
Two things I remember vividly about Reagan's desk.
That Sign, which he often pointed out and which I believe he took seriously... and the ever full bowl of jelly beans to share with his visitors.
I loved him deeply.
Also, in my view he got the job done.
TIGERESS
edit: cool website on the sign and Harry. :http://www.trumanlibrary.org/buckstop.htm
for those who are not American: "The buck stops here" is a phrase that was popularized by U.S. President Harry S. Truman.
It refers to "passing the buck," i.e., handing responsibility to someone else, and the fact that the president has to make the decisions and accept the ultimate responsibility for those decisions.
referenced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_buck_stops_here
-
Originally posted by AKIron
The plan lazs is to simply make everything the republicans do appear as a mistake or failure. Then the democrats can take over and take care of everything.
Appear? *chuckle* And it's the Bush administration not the Republican party. Even some Republicans are figuring that out.
Get over partisan groupthink. It's been proven possible. ;)
-
Originally posted by lazs2
now you are getting the point tigress.. xmarine does not.
They are not going to go away and they will get WMD's that everyone is upset bush didn't find...
We will have to face them at some point.. it is like the cold war... the commies really wanted to enslave the planet. we had to fight them.. sometimes.. not at the best time or place.
we are doing better with the islamofacists.. we are doing it relatively without pain to us.. how much pain is it causing you? the soldiers are volunteers.. very few are dying. the cost is not that bad.. the money would have been pissed away on social programs that hurt our freedom anyway.
I just don't see how we can do anything else? can we wait for more and more of em to live in the 9th century with 21st century weapons?
lazs
We wont have to "deal" with anyone we make friends with, they hate "us" because of our leaders foreign policies... policies that have proven to generate hate and discontent. Read just about any poll that asks "them" why the hate "us".
Why don't the islamofacists hate the Swiss, French, Mexicans or Cubans? because they're not over in the mid east causing death, disease and destruction maybe?
Mexico hasn't overthrown a democratically elected govt, fomented proxy wars or helped one country use "WMDs" against another, and surprise surprise.. there's no jihad on them. Imagine that.
Changing flawed policies is easier and smarter than going to war.
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
Mexico hasn't overthrown a democratically elected govt, fomented proxy wars or helped one country use "WMDs" against another, and surprise surprise.. there's no jihad on them. Imagine that.
not yet.
-
Originally posted by john9001
actually according to the white house tapes nixon knew nothing about the break in and wanted to ' tell all', it was his advisor john dean that convinced nixon to "stonewall", of course when dean was called before congress he sung like a birdy and blamed it all on nixon.
i read the transcript of the white house tapes.
How much of them? Did the ADD kick in before you got to ....
http://www.cnn.com/US/9611/18/nixon.tapes.final/index.html ... ?
;)
-
Originally posted by john9001
not yet.
Not until they make their presense known in the M.E. and manipulate commerce and government, eh? ;)
-
arlo , really likes me:D
-
Originally posted by john9001
arlo , really likes me:D
You're my favorite VI. ;)
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
As long as US foreign policy meddles in their (mid east) business with negative consequences, it's obvious those who don't like the results (aka scary "terrorists") will desire pay-back.. as they have been for years and years.
Before 9/11....other than Kuwait , where exactly was the U.S. meddling? I mean we are talking about the Iraq war here. When was the last time the U.S. blew up a market place in the middle east? Before 9/11 and leaving Kuwait out , when was the last U.S. terroist attack on a middle eastern country? Car bombs , Airline Hijacking , blowing up ships in port , blowing up emabasseys , blowing up bombs in some LARGE hotel in the middle east.
These people are getting tired of foreign govts interference, they've been dealing with it for a long time. It seems every now and then some egomaniacal psychopath "leader" who thinks he has the military to do anything he wants, sets his sights on Iraq..
Egomanical leader? Saddam was oh so sane. Osama , man there is a picture of a well rounded leader. Ahmadinajahd , the aboslute best of them all. Oh , Kim Jong "Im" Il. One of the Fab 5 I guess. Clinton , now THERE Is a man who is tough on terrorists. Egomaniacal you say? Every leader has an ego. But to think Bush can run with some of these guys in the maniacal range , to me , is a stretch.
Who said this?: (hint the year was 1941, the plan: regime change in Baghdad) "The Arabian Freedom Movement in the Middle East is our natural ally... In this connection special importance is attached to the liberation of Iraq.." Answer here (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)
Hmmm....one of those oh so great leaders I suppose...let me see...Hitler?
Oh yea, the old, literally, "democracy" in the mid east plan again... but I'm sure it will work this time. Different "leader", same designs.. or as some might say "same she-it, different year"
Why not just buy their oil and leave them alone?
We did. Until someone went and invaded another country and we helped out. The the country that lost stood there like morons when all they had to do was comply with the U.N.. That thing you prolly like alot but really is just like Pelosi and Reid and the rest of the Dems. Alot of hot air and very lil substance.
Do we teach our kids to overthrow families and install puppet parents when another kid works against our kids interests? (Op Ajax) Do we tell little Johhny it's OK for him to manipulate kids into fighting, then to sell them both the arms they need to better kill each other? (Iran / Contra)... if my kid acted this way at school, he'd be considered a little A-hole... but I'd just tell him those angry kids were "terrorist" brats who hated his freedom.
This whole scene above^ is beyond me....This is real life. Not some make believe kiddy tale.
Answers to Iraq? Beats me....I'm not in the white house. Answers to the middle east? No idea I'm not in the white house or see intell as they do. One thing is for certain tho , Dems and Repubs alike voted FOR this war. They all read the same papers and were called to vote to send the kids in harms way. Now that things aren't going as well as some want it to...the crawfish and lie. They decieve and tell us what they really meant then instead of what they REALLY DID.
We're F'ed no matter WHAT we do. But I for one , as a veteran want to see these troops achieve wat they were sent to do and those that sent them there make sure they have everything in thier means to do so. No more waffelig and panty wasteing BS from some far left .org that's full of people who will sell the farm when the get power.
Either way.....We're F'ed and before long IMHO will be dodging radioactive crap from our home land someplace that WAS a city until a big ole mushroom cloud appeared one day.
-
Originally posted by RedTop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-colonialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Petroleum_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
(http://lost.rapnix.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/WindowsLiveWriter/Hydra_FEB0/hydra%5B3%5D.png)
Bush has been dictating to our allies... and it's upsetting the status quo a great deal, imo.
The US didn't do that in WWII. The Muslim extremists are empowered by it, imo.
The art of politics is really the art of negotiation and compromise, isn't it?
I have seldom seen such strong armed international tactics as has been used since 911 and it's distancing the USA from her friends, imo.
Understand, I am not a socialist by any means...
When I said I am disappointed and it's time for a correction in the political balance of power in the US, it's because I expected better than this from Geo. W. Bush & Co.
I am a Moderate and I voted for him, twice... the country had gone too far to the left, imo.
Father knows best only when Father knows best...
After the last 16 years... I am beginning to think a single 5 year presidential term might fix this problem.
...and term limits on congress.
We are not fighting a country, imo... we are defensively fighting a Religion... Islam, which is still in the Middle Ages.
In my opinion, that isn't fixed with bullets... that just strengthens Islamic Extremists' power.
It's like the Hydra. Cut off one snake head and two grow back to replace it.
IMO, they want us to shoot them for just that reason.
It galvanizes their support amongst the world's population of Islamists the numbers of which are estimated to be between One Billion and One Billion Eight Hundred Million... WORLD WIDE.
Thus, their power to hurt us grows bigger by the day.
(http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/IslamicHolyWar.jpg)
I think we are getting suckered in and falling back on WWII tactics and strategies to deal with it and it's backfiring.
It's a solution that only deals with symptoms and not the root problem.
In my opinion, Geo. W. Bush & Co has been playing right into Islamic Extremists' hands and has been trying to force our international friends to go along with him thus forcing our Allies to play into their hands as well.
Our Allies, appear to me, to be backing off from us because it isn't working.
What do you think?
TIGERESS
Yeh you can say all that but you must consider this- the Qu'ran wasnt written after the invasion of Iraq or 9/11,
it was written about 1400 yrs ago (i believ, dont quote me on it, i take little interest in the book), yes 600 AD not '600 C.E.' or wateva they want us to frikin call it.
This hatred from Islam is not a new thing, nor has bush funadmentally caused it, he just highlighted the problem. I actually admire G.W.Bush, at least the guy has some damn conviction and guts in him, whoever it would be that tried to take on this ugly problem, which bush has. Was and is effectively still the reminance and desperate re-kindling of a holy-war---well at least from the Ayatollahs' point of view.
you really ought to read up on the crusades and you'llsee why,
1) Islam hates Europe and the west
+
2) Why Islamic extremists must be stopped, with a full stop.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
[
In my opinion, that isn't fixed with bullets... that just strengthens Islamic Extremists' power.
Iwell.
Our Allies, appear to me, to be backing off from us because it isn't working.
What do you think?
TIGERESS
firstly how can tan extremist or the whole Golly-geen lot of them become strenthened if all of them have bullets in thier brains and heart courtesy of an M16?
and secondlu
I am a proud young british guy, and by no means am I backing away form the U.S., i feel closer than ever to it. I think the 'American Way' is superb and a damn sight nearer how country used to, and should, be like. wether our left wing governemnt under the rule of comrade brown feels the saem---- im not so sure, i think his gaze lies driectly at brussells.... sadly :(.
-
Originally posted by Laurie
firstly how can tan extremist or the whole Golly-geen lot of them become strenthened if all of them have bullets in thier brains and heart courtesy of an M16?
and secondlu
I am a proud young british guy, and by no means am I backing away form the U.S., i feel closer than ever to it. I think the 'American Way' is superb and a damn sight nearer how country used to, and should, be like. wether our left wing governemnt under the rule of comrade brown feels the saem---- im not so sure, i think his gaze lies driectly at brussells.... sadly :(.
Nice to meet you Laurie and thank you for your service.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Arlo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-colonialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Petroleum_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
Wow....I said all that?
Bascially Im done with this....
Noone here has a clue what to do about Iraq...or this screwed up country we live in. No ideas..nothing
Just blame games and name calling.
-
Originally posted by Laurie
you really ought to read up on the crusades and you'llsee why,
1) Islam hates Europe and the West
+
2) Why Islamic extremists must be stopped, with a full stop.
*sigh* Another one.
No, Islam doesn't hate Europe and the West. Radical terrorist groups who claim Islam as their motivation do. An attempted hijacking of a religion who's followers, by and large, do not appreciate.
No, the crusades weren't about Islam hating the West. The crusades were about Christians fighting to reclaim the Holy lands and were about the Pope and Christian kings hating and fearing Islam. The crusades were a monumental failure and many of them devolved into to the inquisition and inter-Christian fights for power.
Yes, reading up on the crusades is a great idea. :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
First line:
"The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by much of Christian Europe during 1095–1291, most of which were sanctioned by the Pope in the name of Christendom."
Covers the meat right off the bat just in case the article's too long for some to finish. :D
-
Originally posted by RedTop
Wow....I said all that?
Bascially Im done with this....
Noone here has a clue what to do about Iraq...or this screwed up country we live in. No ideas..nothing
Just blame games and name calling.
Was meant as some sources that explain where the person you thought was talking about the U.S. blowing up buildings in Iraq prior to 9/11 was really talking about. Not "you said that!" accusations. ;)
Name/blame games? If you're thinking that's me and not most of the anti-muslims/liberals/democrats/war for war's sakers who play that then you're right ... there's no point, eh? :p
If you're done, I understand. No ill feelings your way, Red. I metcha and love ya like a fellow AH brother. No matter our differences on this to me. :D
-
Originally posted by Arlo
blah blah blah who's followers blah blah blah, smiley smiley
The possessive form of who is 'whose'. link (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whose)
'Who's' is the contraction of 'who' and 'is'.
Ironic that an automaton such as yourself would make that mistake... Or is it paradoxical?
Oh yeah, and moderate Islam is still to blame for not cutting/denying essential financial and moral support to the radicals.
-
Originally posted by Neubob
Blah blah blah my panties are wadded and I want to pretend like my opinion is all that matters.
Nope. :D
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Was meant as some sources that explain where the person you thought was talking about the U.S. blowing up buildings in Iraq prior to 9/11 was really talking about. Not "you said that!" accusations. ;)
Name/blame games? If you're thinking that's me and not most of the anti-muslims/liberals/democrats/war for war's sakers who play that then you're right ... there's no point, eh? :p
If you're done, I understand. No ill feelings your way, Red. I metcha and love ya like a fellow AH brother. No matter our differences on this to me. :D
Yeppers...we are all cool bro. And no..not saying you...just saying in general.
Laters Bro...Im off to set up a squad night and get ready for Golf in the AM.
-
Later, Red. I miss sqwad nights. Have fun on the links. :)
-
I can't seem to find Constantinople on a map anywhere, just this place called Istanbul....
:D
-
And so fell the Byzantines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
And it proves the Islamic world, the whole body (and soul) wants to dominate and control the West. (Be glad that really isn't the case ... yet - `twould be ugly indeed.) (Wait ... I bet some really do want it.) (Not you, buddy.) :D (beer?)
-
Originally posted by Arlo
And so fell the Byzantines:
And it proves the Islamic world, the whole body (and soul) wants to dominate and control the West.
Naah just the radical ones.... The Pope and Christian kings need to work on that hating/fear mongering thing a little more. The Islamic radicals seem to do a better job and get results...
Originally posted by Arlo
(beer?)
Should get the whole squad together since HTC won't host a Con this year....
-
Originally posted by soda72
Naah just the radical ones.... The Pope and Christian kings need to work on that hating/fear mongering thing a little more. The Islamic radicals seem to do a better job and get results...
Yes, no, yes.
Originally posted by soda72
Should get the whole squad together since HTC won't host a Con this year....
What's up with that? I'm up for it. :aok
-
Originally posted by RedTop
Before 9/11:
Operation Ajax, the violent overthrow of Irans democratically govt by the CIA & brits after Irans president nationalized the nations oil excluding westen businesses. The despotic Puppet installed by the US, the Shah, promptly gave away 50% of the nations oil to western interests and was a well know brutal ruler.. google "Savik". Iranians saw their young democracy crushed and lived under this US backed sociopath for over 20 years. With CIA help / $$ politicians & journalists who spoke out were murdered, "terrorism" was used to foment division, silence dissent.. car bombs and stuff.
After the Iranian revolution, the US supported, armed, and assisted the WMD boogie man himself Saddam during the Iran / Iraq war, including the deployment of said WMDs against Iranian troops. Thanks to Iran / Contra, the US also sold Iran arms.. ensuring they could better kill each other. Some 700,000 people were killed... which probably left a few friends and family kinda bitter.
Oh and The USS Vincennes shooting down Iran Air Flight 655 over the Persian Gulf killing almost 300 people.
And then there are the infamous sanctions: When asked on US television if she [Madeline Albright, US Secretary of State] thought that the death of half a million Iraqi children [from sanctions in Iraq] was a price worth paying, Albright replied: "This is a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it."
Just a few examples.
Like I said, theres a reason the cave dwellers haven't put a jihad on Mexico, or the Swiss... they're not over there being crap disturbers.
The scene above you don't get, are the "morals" of our .gov using Operation Ajax & Iran / contra as examples to teach our children. I want my boy to be the 1st kid on the block to overthrow another family! after all the leaders who did these things (repub & dems alike) represent the USA and our values to foreign countries, these are valuable lesions in how to be a conniving a-hole the children must know!
BTW rt, if you think the US govt is good, honest & kind.. they would kill you without thinking twice. Google "Operation Northwoods", a plan by the US gov to hijack & crash airplanes on US soil (among other acts of domestic terrorism) to justify war against Cuba. Might sounds familiar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
-
Originally posted by RedTop
Wow....I said all that?
Bascially Im done with this....
Noone here has a clue what to do about Iraq...or this screwed up country we live in. No ideas..nothing
Just blame games and name calling.
Hi Redtop!
I know it's frustrating... I am frustrated. I think all of us are frustrated.
Even the Islamic non-violent are terminally fustrated... and they have been fustrated and ill-treated by all this a lot longer than we, the non-Islamic, have.
The reason for the thread is because no one anywhere seems to have a clue... YET ... as to what to do about the centuries old ongoing Islamic Holy War being waged against non-Islamic nations and peoples of the world.
We are making progress on the thread topic, in my view. Lots of layers to peel back and many have been now.
Original thought is something any human is capable of once the way is cleared. I love the story about the kid on a bike who stopped to watch a team of men... experts trying to figure out how to extract a stuck truck from under a bridge.
The kid tugged on a guy's shirt sleeve and said... "Why don't you let the air out of the tires?" The rest was history. Now I don't know if that was urban legend or not but the idea of original thought is no less powerful.
Collective Brainstorming is very powerful.
Hang in there! You just might get the idea that works triggered from something someone else says. And also clarity of realization as to why things have been done, and are being done, that don't cure the problem and instead addresses the symptoms.
Yes, it is extremely disheartening to realize our failures... sticking our collective heads in the sand about it and denying it doesn't make it better; rather, worse.
I have been seeing Iran react to the pressure applied by the Allies by rattling their sabers... taunting us... saying... They are no Iraq... screw with us and you will loose. Sounds like typical schoolyard behavior to me.
Iran is a bully in the Islamist world.
To me, their religion is both their strength and their weakness.
How can we exploit that? Politically and Militarily and on the Religion playing field?
I think we have to confront on all three of these.
I think the politicians of the Western Powers grossly missed the mark in understanding these people and what to do about it. It may even require changes to law concerning Religion to clear a path to dealing with them.
What about an internal Islamic Revolution? And help the majority of Islamists reform Islam and the Quran and then clean house of the power wielding portion called Militant/Extremist Islamics who are causing all the grief?
We have to learn about Islam to a depth to even talk to Islamists about the Quran and it's mandate: to convert all nations and peoples of the world or failing to convert them; execute them.
This simply does not cut it and should not be protected under the guise of Religion nor allowed to stand.
We won't win by giving up...
I think Iran is not nearly so brave as they make themselves out to be.
Iran is next on the list, along with Syria.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Neubob
The possessive form of who is 'whose'. link (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whose)
'Who's' is the contraction of 'who' and 'is'.
Ironic that an automaton such as yourself would make that mistake... Or is it paradoxical?
Oh yeah, and moderate Islam is still to blame for not cutting/denying essential financial and moral support to the radicals.
Are they? I agree they need to get out from underneath the boot of the Islamic power block. They have been living under that boot for centuries.
I think they need to be empowered by the rest of the world... and world leaders, to reform Islam and kick the bums out.
And what if they don't go along with it? Well... then more of the Hydra is exposed to daylight.
Know thy enemy.
TIGERESS
PS: I personally refrain from whacking people on their English but I enjoy seeing English well written, nonetheless. My spelling is not the greatest... but I usually use a spell checker to offset it because I care.
-
Originally posted by john9001
arlo , really likes me:D
I like you BOTH! And also the rest of you men!
Work as a team...
Hugs,
TIGERESS
-
xmarine said..
"Why don't the islamofacists hate the Swiss, French, Mexicans or Cubans? because they're not over in the mid east causing death, disease and destruction maybe?
Mexico hasn't overthrown a democratically elected govt, fomented proxy wars or helped one country use "WMDs" against another, and surprise surprise.. there's no jihad on them. Imagine that."
Well.. now you are grasping at straws... why don't they hate the swiss? who hates the swiss? they have no power in the world.. they are a threat to no one and are a good place to bank.. Hitler didn't mess with em either.. not because he liked em or didn't want to rule em tho... he figured he would save em for last.. just like the islamofacists feel.
The french? maybe you missed the riots? even kissing butt they have their muslim problems.. will probly be in worse shape than us when the dust settles... if it weren't for us... I would say they would be the next target.
Mexico? seriously? what would be the point? no threat and no muslims there. cuba.. same thing.
All of europe is a powder keg again.. this time it is the struggle with a faction of a fanatical religion rooted in the barbaric past. As usual... we are dragged into your-0p's mess. They can't or won't handle it so it gets stronger.
tigress... vietnam may not be a good example of what you are trying to prove.. it was very costly for the commies. As was every place that we and the commies clashed. The enemy was the commies and we couldn't always pick the best (for us) place to drain em but... in the end.. we won. the evil empire collapsed.
What difference does it make if we fight in iraq or libia or wherever they are so long as they collapse?
lazs
-
I am thinking the approach and strategies of the Islamic Power Block is along the lines of the domino effect.
Take down the first tier, the Allied Powers, such as the USA, GB, France, Australia, etc., then go after the Axis Powers... Russia, China, etc.
I think the Islamic Power Block is simply using the Axis powers in the short term.
The rest of the world... the less powerful world countries will simply fall into place for Islam. The Mexicos, the Switzerlands, the Canadas, the Germanys, the Asian nations, the African nations, the South American nations and India.
Notice that Geo. W. Bush & Co forged serious and far reaching strategic alliances with India; very good thinking on his part, imho.
If you were the Islamic Power Block what would be your strategy for total Islamic domination of the world? Keeping in mind, the mandate of your religion to dominate the entire world and all its countries and people, including Russia and China?
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by lazs2
xmarine said..
"Why don't the islamofacists hate the Swiss, French, Mexicans or Cubans? because they're not over in the mid east causing death, disease and destruction maybe?
Mexico hasn't overthrown a democratically elected govt, fomented proxy wars or helped one country use "WMDs" against another, and surprise surprise.. there's no jihad on them. Imagine that."
Well.. now you are grasping at straws... why don't they hate the swiss? who hates the swiss? they have no power in the world.. they are a threat to no one and are a good place to bank.. Hitler didn't mess with em either.. not because he liked em or didn't want to rule em tho... he figured he would save em for last.. just like the islamofacists feel.
The french? maybe you missed the riots? even kissing butt they have their muslim problems.. will probly be in worse shape than us when the dust settles... if it weren't for us... I would say they would be the next target.
Mexico? seriously? what would be the point? no threat and no muslims there. cuba.. same thing.
All of europe is a powder keg again.. this time it is the struggle with a faction of a fanatical religion rooted in the barbaric past. As usual... we are dragged into your-0p's mess. They can't or won't handle it so it gets stronger.
tigress... vietnam may not be a good example of what you are trying to prove.. it was very costly for the commies. As was every place that we and the commies clashed. The enemy was the commies and we couldn't always pick the best (for us) place to drain em but... in the end.. we won. the evil empire collapsed.
What difference does it make if we fight in iraq or libia or wherever they are so long as they collapse?
lazs
Point taken, Lazs. We did bloody the hell out of the communists and cost them dearly in terms of money and resources.
Is the old Russia really dead? Russia's Wrong Direction (http://www.cfr.org/publication/9997/)
Now we are exporting billions in technology manufacturing to the People's Republic of China.
Virtually every large high-tech manufacturing company, worldwide, has a strong manufacturing presence in the People's Republic of China.
Case in point, Intel Corp: http://www.newsdaily.com/Business/UPI-1-20070910-01363900-bc-china-intel.xml
Who gave permission to do that? I am not blaming the lefties or righties individually on this...
I see it as short term thinking in terms of business.
Holy Cow! Have we all gone mad?
China and Russia sells arms, including jet fighters, to Iran and (arguably) enables North Korea to export Nuclear Technology to Iran and Syria and who knows where else in addition to direct Nuclear export.
The Russian/Chinese stance on trading with the Irans of the world: http://china-intel.blogspot.com/
Don't mind me... I am just venting at the moment. :)
TIGERESS
PS: I have been approached about personally relocating to the People's Republic of China to work there for an American High-Tech company.
Guess what I said... No Freeking Way.
I love the Chinese people and have worked closely with engineers, male and female, from both Taiwan and the People's Republic of China.
...sweet, intelligent, and productive hard-working Human Beings.
The People's Republic of China government? I don't like it any more than the Chinese people like it. They don't like it and have personally told me so.
Guess who is manufacturing what in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam?
I refuse to go there too... and I have worked long and short term in many many countries on behalf of several American high-tech companies, as have many many engineers from the Western powers. Nothing new there.
IF... I were to relocate, I am thinking the Dallas area :) perhaps I could get a ride in Dale's (HiTech's) RV-8 for some aerobatics! woo HOOO! (if he promises not to try and make me barf :rofl
-
tigress.. communism will probly never die nor, will islamofacism rooted in the oppression of it's people with barbaric 9th century law.
commies and islamofacists have that in common.. the hate of individualism and personal freedom. there will allways be those who hate the thought of personal freedom and who fear it.
But... It is fair to note that chinas communism is not the old soviet brand.. It at least has the glimmer of capitalism to it. I believe that capitalism is such a superior system that it will trounce the commie every time... I believe the people of china will want more and more capitalism and less and less communism.
I believe that, so far as furthering communism goes, the chinesse are shooting themselves in the foot.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
tigress.. communism will probly never die nor, will islamofacism rooted in the oppression of it's people with barbaric 9th century law.
commies and islamofacists have that in common.. the hate of individualism and personal freedom. there will allways be those who hate the thought of personal freedom and who fear it.
But... It is fair to note that chinas communism is not the old soviet brand.. It at least has the glimmer of capitalism to it. I believe that capitalism is such a superior system that it will trounce the commie every time... I believe the people of china will want more and more capitalism and less and less communism.
I believe that, so far as furthering communism goes, the chinesse are shooting themselves in the foot.
lazs
Lasz, the Chinese are shooting US in the foot.
THEY are the ones patiently drawing off all of our core industry's and businesses' overseas.
THEY are the ones that are starting to get on a technological par with the U.S., both militarily and civily.
They are very patient. They have learned the lessons that were shown by the Germans, Japanese, and the Russians. You won't beat the U.S.A. on any one single battlefield, right now-But they will wait until we can't even manufacture our own weapons' here in the continental U.S. before they take us to the mat. They will fuel the other side's in Proxy wars' which we get into, Whilst we ruin our diplomatic standing with our allies. They are just waiting for the day when we wake up, can't fight back, nobody's gonna come help us, and Type 90's are advancing off the beaches, headed for Washington D.C. But the meat and potatoes' of their victory will be the economic one they are winning right now-by hanging us with our own rope.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I like you BOTH! And also the rest of you men!
Work as a team...
Hugs,
TIGERESS
Family squabble. But bless the peace maker. :D
-
Originally posted by lazs2
xmarine said..
"Why don't the islamofacists hate the Swiss, French, Mexicans or Cubans? because they're not over in the mid east causing death, disease and destruction maybe?
Mexico hasn't overthrown a democratically elected govt, fomented proxy wars or helped one country use "WMDs" against another, and surprise surprise.. there's no jihad on them. Imagine that."
Well.. now you are grasping at straws... why don't they hate the swiss? who hates the swiss? they have no power in the world.. they are a threat to no one and are a good place to bank.. Hitler didn't mess with em either.. not because he liked em or didn't want to rule em tho... he figured he would save em for last.. just like the islamofacists feel.
The french? maybe you missed the riots? even kissing butt they have their muslim problems.. will probly be in worse shape than us when the dust settles... if it weren't for us... I would say they would be the next target.
Mexico? seriously? what would be the point? no threat and no muslims there. cuba.. same thing.
All of europe is a powder keg again.. this time it is the struggle with a faction of a fanatical religion rooted in the barbaric past. As usual... we are dragged into your-0p's mess. They can't or won't handle it so it gets stronger.
tigress... vietnam may not be a good example of what you are trying to prove.. it was very costly for the commies. As was every place that we and the commies clashed. The enemy was the commies and we couldn't always pick the best (for us) place to drain em but... in the end.. we won. the evil empire collapsed.
What difference does it make if we fight in iraq or libia or wherever they are so long as they collapse?
lazs
Talk about grasping at straws. Some people want a global religious crusade a bit too much. As long as they get to just spectate from the comfort of their loungechairs and their hd big screen in their den. You shoulda just left it at:
"they have no power in the world.. they are a threat to no one and are a good place to bank.. "
Which was pretty much an admission that xmarine was indeed right. But then you had to grasp.
;) :D
-
Originally posted by lazs2
xmarine said..
"Why don't the islamofacists hate the Swiss, French, Mexicans or Cubans? because they're not over in the mid east causing death, disease and destruction maybe?
Mexico hasn't overthrown a democratically elected govt, fomented proxy wars or helped one country use "WMDs" against another, and surprise surprise.. there's no jihad on them. Imagine that."
Well.. now you are grasping at straws... why don't they hate the swiss? who hates the swiss? they have no power in the world.. they are a threat to no one and are a good place to bank.. Hitler didn't mess with em either.. not because he liked em or didn't want to rule em tho... he figured he would save em for last.. just like the islamofacists feel.
The french? maybe you missed the riots? even kissing butt they have their muslim problems.. will probly be in worse shape than us when the dust settles... if it weren't for us... I would say they would be the next target.
Mexico? seriously? what would be the point? no threat and no muslims there. cuba.. same thing.
All of europe is a powder keg again.. this time it is the struggle with a faction of a fanatical religion rooted in the barbaric past. As usual... we are dragged into your-0p's mess. They can't or won't handle it so it gets stronger.
tigress... vietnam may not be a good example of what you are trying to prove.. it was very costly for the commies. As was every place that we and the commies clashed. The enemy was the commies and we couldn't always pick the best (for us) place to drain em but... in the end.. we won. the evil empire collapsed.
What difference does it make if we fight in iraq or libia or wherever they are so long as they collapse?
lazs
The Swiss et al enjoy the evils of freedom, and we all know how much those wacky islamos hate freedom, the president said so remember? i
There is no guess work here, try reading some polls thats asks them why they hate the USA..
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt, wrap yourself in the flag, spew some patriotic drivel you heard on TV about "cut and run" or "surrender" while masterbating profusly to a weeping eagle / burining twin towers poster... it won't change the fact that Operation Ajax, Iran / Contra and all that other obscene history of US mideast screw ups of death & destruction you wish never happened are REALITIES.
-
Here Laz, a Message From The Iraq Resistance.. there's a lot of rhetoric but you'll hear them talk about "sanctions" and other US FOREIGN POLICIES as to why the don't like the US.. which confirms what poll after poll in the mid east already has.
You wont hear them say "we hate your freedom" tho... and there's no hating on the Swiss or Mexicans.
http://www.terroristmedia.com/nukem/download-file-176.html
-
non xmarine, exactily what "US FOREIGN POLICIES " do they not like?
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
Here Laz, a Message From The Iraq Resistance.. there's a lot of rhetoric but you'll hear them talk about "sanctions" and other US FOREIGN POLICIES as to why the don't like the US.. which confirms what poll after poll in the mid east already has.
You wont hear them say "we hate your freedom" tho... and there's no hating on the Swiss or Mexicans.
http://www.terroristmedia.com/nukem/download-file-176.html
That link turned out to be restricted... have to be a member I guess.
Can you post an excerpt?
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
You wont hear them say "we hate your freedom" tho...
Not in so many words. Among other freedoms they hate vehemently is the freedom to criticize their holy relics/prophet, or don't you remember a few cartoons that earned their writers death sentences?
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Not in so many words. Among other freedoms they hate vehemently is the freedom to criticize their holy relics/prophet, or don't you remember a few cartoons that earned their writers death sentences?
How wreckless is your definition of they, again? Is it like the fanatic radicals you project upon the entire religion of Islam defining all Americans as satan worshipping imperialists? Well fighting stupid with stupid has always worked well. ;)
-
Originally posted by Arlo
How wreckless is your definition of they, again? Is it like the fanatic radicals you project upon the entire religion of Islam defining all Americans as satan worshipping imperialists? Well fighting stupid with stupid has always worked well. ;)
Reckless? Are you saying that all of Islam did not denounce the cartoons? There may have been a very few that objected to the death sentences imposed by Islamic leaders but they were few and they were not adamant in their condemnation. Even those few that did denounce the death sentences spent more time complaining about the cartoons than about killing the writers. "They" is exactly who I meant.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Reckless? Are you saying that all of Islam did not denounce the cartoons? There may have been a very few that objected to the death sentences imposed by Islamic leaders but they were few and they were not adamant in their condemnation. Even those few that did denounce the death sentences spent more time complaining about the cartoons than about killing the writers. "They" is exactly who I meant.
Denouncing a cartoon and making a death threat are two seperate acts, my friend. (And no, Islam in it's entirety did not.) You would misportray that to justify your own sense or moral mendacity, however.
Christians denounce a lot of things. The radical crackpots amongst them have been known to send death threats. Bomb clinics. But I know that doesn't make Christianity the problem. Those who would think so would be part of it, though. As such, same goes for your delusional misportrayal of Islam to simplify your rationalization of your own angry fear.
At least that's what I'm seein' you do so far.
Please ... prove me wrong. :D
-
x0847marine does echoes what ron paul has been repeating in the debates... lacking the herd mentality he does speaks with an open and honest mind about the 9/11 commission results.
and ron paul has won the latest debates by a large margin... even on faux's polls he wins and the 9/11-giuliani repeat bots score real low.
it's a positive.
-
Originally posted by Torque
x0847marine does echoes what ron paul has been repeating in the debates... lacking the herd mentality he does speaks with an open and honest mind about the 9/11 commission results.
and ron paul has won the latest debates by a large margin... even on faux's polls he wins and the 9/11-giuliani repeat bots score real low.
it's a positive.
I remember Dr. Paul said something about flawed past policies during a debate or something.. and Giuliani almost soiled himself in a manufactured fit of phony moral outrage most certainly intended for media consumption.
Later that night some DC hack named Duncan Hunter, filled with similar fake outrage, said on CNN that Dr. Paul was a kook because the people in the mid-east love the USA for saving Kuwait.. lmao, then he added we did nothing but help them.. they have no reason to hate us...
Never mind that countless polls, year after year indicate its US policies... why bother listening to reality when "they hate our freedom" fits on a bumper sticker.
Tigress yea I guess the video link is for 'members', but it's free and I highly suggest checking it out... there are 100s of videos. Although some are brutally graphic. They talk about sanctions that killed Iraqi kids, supposedly half a million, theft of their countries resources, the pillaging of Iraqs artifacts, and that the war wasn't sanctioned by the UN and is illegal. Besides that they're tired of being disrespected, and are really irked that modern cities that used to have flush toilets have been returned to the stone age.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Not in so many words. Among other freedoms they hate vehemently is the freedom to criticize their holy relics/prophet, or don't you remember a few cartoons that earned their writers death sentences?
Sure I remember... but I think its a leap in logic to opine they hate freedom based on a typically irrational knee-jerk religious reaction to the 'content' of a cartoon. Is it the "freedom", or the cartoon they hate?, and where is the evidence of this?
When the democrats threw a mofo letter at that fat radio wind-bag Rush, i/e criticized him, the dems did so because they hate Rushs freedom? and not what he said?
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
Sure I remember... but I think its a leap in logic to opine they hate freedom based on a typically irrational knee-jerk religious reaction to the 'content' of a cartoon. Is it the "freedom", or the cartoon they hate?, and where is the evidence of this?
When the democrats threw a mofo letter at that fat radio wind-bag Rush, i/e criticized him, the dems did so because they hate Rushs freedom? and not what he said?
IF... people were to read the Quran and start understanding the religion, it would be apparent.. No one is allowed by Islam to make a picture of Allah or insult the Prophet, Mohammed.
Chilling Islamic Demonstration of Cartoons. London. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs)
These people are operating by well documented rules most of us don't even know about.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
IF... people were to read the Quran and start understanding the religion, it would be apparent.. No one is allowed by Islam to make a picture of Allah or insult the Prophet, Mohammed.
Chilling Islamic Demonstration of Cartoons. London. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs)
These people are operating by well documented rules most of us don't even know about.
TIGERESS
I get that they hate these particular cartoons... their nutty beliefs forbid such things.
I still wouldn't get the idea they "hate freedom" because of an irrational religious opinion about drawings, but I'll agree they hate the results freedom affords some cartoonists who clown on Mohammed. Plus I know they dislike, or hate if you want, the fact we can watch porn, go to strip bars & get drunk.. and other things they consider "immoral".
But I doubt 9/11 was motivated by Wet & wild barely legal co-eds VII, or Hooters restaurants.
Then again if I published a cartoon of Jesus in DRAG enjoying the services of a male prostitute that resembled G Bush in a feces & fly filled airport mens room ... I'll bet I'd get a hefty dose of 'burn in hell' hate and maybe a death threat. Religious folks of all flavors don't have much of a sense of humor when it comes to their saviour.
-
mmmm... freedom...
Listen you guys!
This whole thing is about submission and domination!
Oh, and sex plays a big big role.
Lets see what the Quran says...
Submission and Domination
from the Quran:
33:36 "It is not fitting for a Muslim man or woman to have any choice in their affairs when a matter has been decided for them by Allah and His Messenger. They have no option. If any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a wrong Path."
5:4 "This day those who reject faith give up all hope of your religion. Yet fear them not, fear Me. This day I have perfected your religion and have chosen for you Submission as your religion."
58:46 "Obey Allah and His Messenger; and do not dispute!"
8:24 "O Believers! Answer Allah and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life [martyrdom].... Fear the affliction and trial that awaits those who do not obey. Allah is severe."
Rewards for fearing and obeying ?
Sexual Reward for Submission
from the Quran:
55:46 "For him who lives in terror of his Lord are two Gardens containing delights: shade, two fountains flowing, fruits in pairs. Reclining on carpets lined with silk brocade, fruits hanging low. In them virginal females with averted glances (desiring none but you), undeflowered by men or jinn. Is the reward of goodness aught but goodness?"
The Dreaded Jinn
The concepts and explainations of the Jinn (Shaitan) are quite fascinating :)
Islamists fear the Jinn. boo!!
You could tell them you are a Jinn! ...and, prehaps you are and dont even know it!
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/hasakr/jinn.html
TIGERESS
-
These people are playing according to their rule book.
Every "jail house lawyer" understands... the vast power and value of knowing the rule book by which the police, judge, jury, and captors operate.
There are plenty of web sites which offer guided tours and insight on subjects dealt with in the Quran and are hosted by Non-Muslims and by Muslims.
It's really insightful and the knowledge of their rule book is powerful.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
Sure I remember... but I think its a leap in logic to opine they hate freedom based on a typically irrational knee-jerk religious reaction to the 'content' of a cartoon. Is it the "freedom", or the cartoon they hate?, and where is the evidence of this?
When the democrats threw a mofo letter at that fat radio wind-bag Rush, i/e criticized him, the dems did so because they hate Rushs freedom? and not what he said?
Their response to the cartoons reveals their attitudes and mindsets. Not much different than amadmanjihads answer that there are no homosexuals in Iran. I think they don't hate our freedom so much as fear it. Of course fear often leads to hate.
-
arlo.. you need to think past the end of your nose. The swiss were never a threat.. many counties are never a threat to those who would enslave the world.. that just means that they are low on the list to be taken.. they have freedom at the whim of the strong.
So long as they are useful and so long as they are not in the way... and most importantly... so long as there is a powerful country to defend them that believes in freeedom....they will be amoung the last... but.. if everyone turned swiss but the bad guys...
It would be like a school shooting with no help on the way. the bad guy would just wander around the globe taking out countries.... sorta like hitler did but.. he saved the swiss for last.. for some reason tho... he never quite got around to them.
Your "hiding under the bed and hope for the best" theory does not sit well with me. If you have the power to defend yourself.. you are a threat.
It also strikes me as funny as hell that the same lefties here who think that any mention of god in our government is the greatest threat to freedom since hitler... now are telling me that if we leave nations run by islamofacists alone everything will be just fine. I mean... how could they be a threat to anyone right?
lazs
-
and frode.. perhaps china is full of evil commie supermen with a plan that will rule the world... or maybe.. they are struggling for survival and finding that communism won't work.
Maybe a little of both but.. they can't make pure communism work.. far from using our capitalism against us... they are simply forced to join us.. I forsee them buying cheap labor somewhere someday to keep up a standard of living.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. you need to think past the end of your nose. The swiss were never a threat.. many counties are never a threat to those who would enslave the world.. that just means that they are low on the list to be taken.. they have freedom at the whim of the strong.
So long as they are useful and so long as they are not in the way... and most importantly... so long as there is a powerful country to defend them that believes in freeedom....they will be amoung the last... but.. if everyone turned swiss but the bad guys...
It would be like a school shooting with no help on the way. the bad guy would just wander around the globe taking out countries.... sorta like hitler did but.. he saved the swiss for last.. for some reason tho... he never quite got around to them.
Your "hiding under the bed and hope for the best" theory does not sit well with me. If you have the power to defend yourself.. you are a threat.
It also strikes me as funny as hell that the same lefties here who think that any mention of god in our government is the greatest threat to freedom since hitler... now are telling me that if we leave nations run by islamofacists alone everything will be just fine. I mean... how could they be a threat to anyone right?
lazs
Spot On.
The division of lefties and righties doesn't even really matter to these zombies.
I am sure it gives them great pleasure to see us fighting amongst ourselves as they prepare our final meal.
So what is really the point in belaboring it?
The idea here is to come together against a common enemy of Humanity.
We all have our notions... but learning and becoming more informed and gathering that which gives us mutual commonality gives us power, does it not?
Otherwise, tell me I am wasting my time trying to combine lefties and righties together against the Hydra...
TIGERESS
-
Yep.. the lefties don't get it.. it is like liberal jews who get mugged by a negro... they feel betrayed and can't figure out why.
The islamofacists are gonna get them first.. they are gonna blow up blue cities.. not us rednecks on our land.. the blue cities full of "arteeeests" and "sensitive" guys.. and if they were running the place...
How much freedom would the left have? how witty would the tv and media be under an islamofacist? how bout that sex life or recreational drug thing?
laughable...
The left here and the islamofacists is like David Horowitz was with the black panthers way back when... except Horowitz finaly figured it out.. the left still hasn't
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
and frode.. perhaps china is full of evil commie supermen with a plan that will rule the world... or maybe.. they are struggling for survival and finding that communism won't work.
Maybe a little of both but.. they can't make pure communism work.. far from using our capitalism against us... they are simply forced to join us.. I forsee them buying cheap labor somewhere someday to keep up a standard of living.
lazs
Bear wth me for a moment, Lazs...
Communism is not the enemy... but this is:
Russia and China's New World Order
http://china-intel.blogspot.com/
Please take a few minutes and read it... please.
TIGERESS
an excerpt:
"In 2005, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Hu Jintao proclaimed the need for a “new international order,” reaffirming similar statements made by their countries in 1996, 1997 and 2000. This new order would be “multipolar,” where no one country would be able to “monopolize or dominate world affairs.” 1
That one country “monopolizing and dominating world affairs” is, as you may have guessed, the United States. What this declaration boils down to is Russia and China stating that they want to bring down the power of the United States and establish themselves in our place as world powers.
In order for China and Russia to realize this dream, two things will obviously need to take place. The power of the United States must decrease, while their power must increase. China and Russia have a simple plan for this, and it was cleverly articulated in their joint statement. They said..."
Please see the website for the rest.
-
read it.. works out the same. to beat us they must have to be us means... they lose.
I have faith in individual freedom and the yearning for it in all peoples. I feel that the more of a taste of it they get... well... they can never go back. not entirely. you can never go home again as they say.. it is like boroda brooding over his vodka at some cheap dinnette table and wishing for the good old days of the soviet union and the strong hand of uncle joe...
Those days are gone. The world is getting smaller.. every country sees now what is possible and who has the best deal. The best will win out in the end.
lazs
-
Conclusion
It is clear that Russia and China’s security goals are not the same as our own. They value countering the United States over keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of madmen, which a short look at Iran has shown us. This policy of supporting dangerous, aggressive regimes that are antagonistic to the US is a pattern not just observable in Iran, but also in North Korea, Venezuela, Syria, Cuba, and other regimes that oppose the US. ‘The Bear’ and ‘the Dragon’ have teamed up to oppose the power of the United States, and it is about time the ‘sleeping giant’ woke up and acknowledged this fact.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by lazs2
read it.. works out the same. to beat us they must have to be us means... they lose.
I have faith in individual freedom and the yearning for it in all peoples. I feel that the more of a taste of it they get... well... they can never go back. not entirely. you can never go home again as they say.. it is like boroda brooding over his vodka at some cheap dinnette table and wishing for the good old days of the soviet union and the strong hand of uncle joe...
Those days are gone. The world is getting smaller.. every country sees now what is possible and who has the best deal. The best will win out in the end.
lazs
They realized the power of capitolism and are using it as we do.
The Capitolism v Communism thing is a relic of the past... history.
This is 2007.
China and Russia still are intent on bringing down the United States... that has never changed.
Why then, are you appearing to discount the validity of the Russia and China of 2007 as a threat to the United States?
Doing so doesn't make any sense to me... what am I missing here?
TIGERESS
-
ahhh... sorry.. thought were looking at the big picture here and not just the nuke threat.
Yes.. I believe that they will sell nukes... for various reasons. I think they will find that it is not to anyones best interest tho. The bad thing about nukes is.. we can't put the genie back into the bottle.
It will be a disaster some day... has to be just on the odds. I would suggest that everyone spread out a little. I wouldn't want to live in a big blue city or a fishbowl like NO or an area that has poor air circulation like L.A.
Not much we can do about it.. the nukes are floating around everywhere. it is just a race to see if freedom gets a chance before the nuts get to touch off a few.
not much we can do about it in any case now is there?
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
ahhh... sorry.. thought were looking at the big picture here and not just the nuke threat.
Yes.. I believe that they will sell nukes... for various reasons. I think they will find that it is not to anyones best interest tho. The bad thing about nukes is.. we can't put the genie back into the bottle.
It will be a disaster some day... has to be just on the odds. I would suggest that everyone spread out a little. I wouldn't want to live in a big blue city or a fishbowl like NO or an area that has poor air circulation like L.A.
Not much we can do about it.. the nukes are floating around everywhere. it is just a race to see if freedom gets a chance before the nuts get to touch off a few.
not much we can do about it in any case now is there?
lazs
Russia, China, and the Hydra are working together to bring down the Unites States...
I think that is a Big Picture view...
Even your President knows this.
Yet... we seem to be gliding down a lazy river sleeping with Russia and China as capitolist bedfellows...
All is well. NOT! :noid
Have you had your morning coffee yet, dear, or are you still sleepy?
TIGERESS
edit: I started my usual morning coffee at 2:00am your time :)
-
I think that pointing out the obvious is not that useful is all.
What do you suggest we do about it?
Of course they are.. they hate us. the problem is.. the more like us they get in order to defeat us... the more individual freedom their people get a taste of.
yes.. I am and optimist... but a cautious one... Like I said.. I sure don't want to be in a blue city when the nukes hit. I sure don't want to be around one when the democrats are in power either.
Like I said tho.. pointing out the obvious is not the same as a solution.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I think that pointing out the obvious is not that useful is all.
What do you suggest we do about it?
Of course they are.. they hate us. the problem is.. the more like us they get in order to defeat us... the more individual freedom their people get a taste of.
yes.. I am and optimist... but a cautious one... Like I said.. I sure don't want to be in a blue city when the nukes hit. I sure don't want to be around one when the democrats are in power either.
Like I said tho.. pointing out the obvious is not the same as a solution.
lazs
Is Washington DC blue or red?
And let me get this straight... you only care of they nuke red cities?
HAHAHAHAHAHA :rofl
How noble...
I suggest confronting Russia and China on the world stage about this and calling a spade a spade.
Limiting trade with enemies of the USA would be good for starters.
China was or is our Favorite Nation Status trading partner... duhhhhh
" ‘The Bear’ and ‘the Dragon’ have teamed up to oppose the power of the United States, and it is about time the ‘sleeping giant’ woke up and acknowledged this fact."
TIGERESS
-
Name me a red city. It has to be a worthy target tho.. like over 250,000 or so.
DC... are you kidding?
I don't think "noble" had much to do with it.. "pragmatic" is a better word. noble would imply that there was something I could do about it if I wanted to even if it were difficult for me personally.
but.. answer the question... what is your solution. I am big on solutions... that male thing I guess.. endless forays into the self help bookshelf or alarmist sites don't do it for me.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
Name me a red city. It has to be a worthy target tho.. like over 250,000 or so.
DC... are you kidding?
I don't think "noble" had much to do with it.. "pragmatic" is a better word. noble would imply that there was something I could do about it if I wanted to even if it were difficult for me personally.
but.. answer the question... what is your solution. I am big on solutions... that male thing I guess.. endless forays into the self help bookshelf or alarmist sites don't do it for me.
lazs
The whole point of the thread is to find a solution and get the job done.
Being ignorant of the issues and/or ignoring the issues is not a solution, but then I know you are fully aware of that.
To do nothing by indicision is, in itself, a decision.
TIGERESS
-
ahhh...you edited. where is this "world stage" you speak of? how are the accustics? good lighting? can we use it between soap operas?
limit trade eh? well.. I think it may be a little late for that. It is estimated that just closing wal mart would add about a $2,000 a year burden on every family.. that is not even saying that everything made in unfriendly countries sells out of wal mart. real effect would be more likely a destruction of our economy as we know it.. for at least a few decades..
Are you advocating a few decades of pain now to maybe achieve.. achieve what? how will anything you have said make for less nukes in the hands of people who hate anyone in their way?
lazs
-
Ok.. so you can't name a red city.. you can't come up with a solution but... we should all just sit and talk about it?
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
Ok.. so you can't name a red city.. you can't come up with a solution but... we should all just sit and talk about it?
lazs
We all know the Red Cities are in the Fly-Over states :)
But I am neither a leftie nor a rightie! I am a middle of the roadie.
They are all ...American Cities to me.
several quotes come to mind...
"Lead, Follow, or get out of the way."
"Your are either working on the solution or you are part of the problem."
I am searching for a solution. That starts with clearing defining and understanding the problem.
Seriously, Lazs, when you come out with this kind of twaddle you are leaving me no choice but to consider your inputs as Irrelavant.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
‘The Bear’ and ‘the Dragon’ have teamed up to oppose the power of the United States, and it is about time the ‘sleeping giant’ woke up and acknowledged this fact.
TIGERESS
If the 'sleeping giant' does not take on a more pro-active stance on foreign bullying in general, it will be relegated to the status of 'fat **** passed out on a hammock'
-
Originally posted by Neubob
If the 'sleeping giant' does not take on a more pro-active stance on foreign bullying in general, it will be relegated to the status of 'fat **** passed out on a hammock'
And that is why there is going to be a shift of power in the USA from Rightie to Leftie... for better or worse.
The sleepy time is over.
The "By guess and by God" "Damn the torpedos; full speed ahead" "Don't confuse me with the facts; my mind is made up" mentality had its chance at bat.
I would start with shutting down the Intel Corp. construction of Fab 68 in China.
Intel Fab 68 is a $2.5 billion dollar state-of-the-art semiconductor manufacturing plant in Dalian, China started in March of this year.
"BEIJING, March 26, 2007 – Intel Corporation today announced plans to build a 300-millimeter (mm) wafer fabrication facility (fab) in the coastal Northeast China city of Dalian in Liaoning Province. The $2.5 billion investment for the factory designated Fab 68 will become Intel's first wafer fab in Asia and adds significant investment to Intel's existing operations in China."
reference: http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20070326corp.htm
Send letters and e-mails to your Congress and tell them to "Tear Down That Fab!"
Picket Intel! They are in bed with enemies of the USA... all in the name of capitolism.
Flood Intel with nasty-grams about Fab 68 and doing business with China who is a major threat to the security of the United States.
Hello? McFly??? Sleepy Time is over.
Russia and China are not our friends and they are adding power to the Hydra and making a buck at the same time! DANG!!!!!!!!!!
TIGERESS
edit: About Intel
Intel, the world leader in silicon innovation, develops technologies, products and initiatives to continually advance how people work and live. Additional information about Intel is available at http://www.intel.com/pressroom and blogs.intel.com.
-
Don't know if I agree with you there, Tigress...
Not sure that the current administration is really too loyal to the right wing values, either... But even if the do, I just don't see the socialists making any improvements in this country.
But let me put this in the terms of our previous little exchange...
If we were a 'sleeping giant', and under the current administration are risking becoming a 'fat **** passed out on the hammock', then the liberals will turn is into an 'obese-mumu-clad woman with one hand grasping the throat of her hapless child, and the other securely buried in a bucket of reduced-fat fried chicken'.
-
Originally posted by Neubob
Don't know if I agree with you there, Tigress...
Not sure that the current administration is really too loyal to the right wing values, either... But even if the do, I just don't see the socialists making any improvements in this country.
But let me put this in the terms of our previous little exchange...
If we were a 'sleeping giant', and under the current administration are risking becoming a 'fat **** passed out on the hammock', then the liberals will turn is into an 'obese-mumu-clad woman with one hand grasping the throat of her hapless child, and the other securely buried in a bucket of reduced-fat fried chicken'.
Honey, this is not about left and right.
This is about survival.
I think a cooperative bi-partisan approach is the way to go.
Stop this left-right bickering. Or we will bicker ourselves into a freeking grave as a country.
The Left will no doubt step-in and I don't think either party exclusively, Left or Right, presently has a clue.
Where is a Ronald Reagan or a John F. Kennedy when we need one?
We have a serious leadership vacuum and it needs to be filled, IMV.
Otherwise, I think we are done as a nation.
Perhaps the real enemy is not China and Russia and the Hydra; perhaps the real enemy is ourselves.
red cities; blue cities
I am stunned that would even come up.
I think it's going to require a few Hydra-Nukes before people start cooperating.
TIGERESS
-
Ok, that I do agree with.
And no, China and Russia are not the big enemies. They are more like us than most of think, and their goals more resemble ours than we give them credit for. Maybe that is the cause of the fear. The main difference is that we are established and they are emerging. We are settled in our success and put more weight on morality, where as they just want their place in the modern world. Regardless of what anybody on this board believes, there are few prominent leaders of industry in either Russia or China that reasonably expect any gain from the demise of Western Europe and the US.
As the adage goes, we are our most dangerous enemy.
-
Originally posted by Neubob
Ok, that I do agree with.
And no, China and Russia are not the big enemies. They are more like us than most of think, and their goals more resemble ours than we give them credit for. Maybe that is the cause of the fear. The main difference is that we are established and they are emerging. We are settled in our success and put more weight on morality, where as they just want their place in the modern world. Regardless of what anybody on this board believes, there are few prominent leaders of industry in either Russia or China that reasonably expect any gain from the demise of Western Europe and the US.
As the adage goes, we are our most dangerous enemy.
A truely intelligent person.
Your stock just went through the roof in my book, Bob.
Megalomania will overrule logic and wisdom to the detriment of all.
TIGERESS
-
I need a little humor, Bob.
I dedicate this song to you, dear!
It's a compliment...
Stuck In The Middle With You by Louise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLRVIOz_rqU)
Well I don't know why I came here tonight
I've got a feelin' that somethin' ain't right
I'm so scared in case I fall off my chair
And I'm wonderin' how I'll get down the stairs
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you
Yes, I'm stuck in the middle with you
And I'm wonderin' what it is I should do
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face
Losin' control, yeah, I'm all over the place
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Here I am stuck in the middle with you
Well you started off with nothin' and
You're proud that you're a self-made man, yeah
And your friends they all come crawlin'
Slap you on the back and say
Please...
Please...
Tryin' to make some sense of it all
But I can see that it makes no sense at all
Is it cool to go to sleep on the floor?
I don't think that I can take any more
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Here I am stuck in the middle with you
Stuck in the middle
Stuck in the middle
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Stuck in the middle
Stuck in the middle
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Here I am stuck in the middle with you
Well you started off with nothin' and
You're proud that you're a self-made man, yeah
And your friends they all come crawlin'
And slap you on the back and say
Please...
I say please...
Well I don't know why I came here tonight
I've got a feelin' that somethin' ain't right
I'm so scared in case I fall off my chair
And I'm wonderin' how I'll get down the stairs
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you
Stuck in the middle with you
Oh, yeah
Stuck in the middle with you
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you
With you, with you, with you...
TIGERESS
-
Wow, Tigress, thanks... I am honored.
That song is forever ingrained in my mind as the theme music to the scene in Reservoir dogs where Michael Madson cuts off the ear of some poor cop he'd kidnapped in the trunk of his car.
Then he poured gasoline on him.
Ouch.
-
Originally posted by Neubob
Wow, Tigress, thanks... I am honored.
That song is forever ingrained in my mind as the theme music to the scene in Reservoir dogs where Michael Madson cuts off the ear of some poor cop he'd kidnapped in the trunk of his car.
Then he poured gasoline on him.
Ouch.
Now you can think, instead, of the Hydra Thread and Louise singin' the song! :aok
Did you watch the video?
TIGERESS
-
That really screwed up a good song.
Prancing Blonde Bimbos... how original.
*shakes head*
Mac
-
Originally posted by AWMac
That really screwed up a good song.
Prancing Blonde Bimbos... how original.
*shakes head*
Mac
hahahaha!!!!!!!! Its just entertainment!
Just for Mr. AWMac: Stuck In The Middle With You by Stealers Wheel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMrm7ZQ0aMA)
See? The origional is still there, dear!
All better now? awwww...
gee... I don't feel so depressed now! :rofl I think I will go shave my legs!
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Now you can think, instead, of the Hydra Thread and Louise singin' the song! :aok
Did you watch the video?
TIGERESS
It's much less, um, serious that the Tarantino scene.
-
well.. I got to admit that I understand neubob but that I don't understand you tigress. I can't get your point and I don't understand your "solution".
How does that solution go again? I am slow sooooo.. leave out the fluff... leave out the poems and links to things that have nothing to do with it..
don't tell me about how you feel about it or how its aura looks.
Break it down for me... give me one practical solution and we will discuss the merits of that one.
once we get that worked out.. we can work on the next suggestion for solution you have but.. I simply can't follow you. I need to at least hear you say something that is on track and has a real point.
lazs
-
I have only come up with a few ideas...
I am not so bold as to pronounce them as a solution, rather ideas for discussion on solution.
So everyone feel totally free to shoot as many holes in them as you possibly can. Simple dismissal is not a discussion.
Timetable: 7-10 years
0. Kick-start a full swing to Liquid Hydrogen as our primary fuel source to replace oil as much as possible.
1. Establish an international agreement by the G-7 nations declaring the Present Islamic Religion as a common threat to Humanity and kick Russia off the G-8.
2. Force the non-violent Islamic majority to fess up about the Quran and change their religion and if they don't then label them as enemies of Humanity and treat them accordingly. Make them do it, they know all about submission and domination.
3. Force China and Russia to back off from supporting rogue nations through the use of incrementally staged and serious economic sanctions.
4. Keep fighting the ground and air war as we have been.
5. Full G-7 boycott of Iran, Syria. Set a blockade on both; shoot anything that goes in or out.
6. After Iran and Syria are internationally declared Regimes of Islamic Threats to Humanity, invoke the draft and go to full time state of war. Go for the throat.
7. Watch Saudi Arabia team up with Iran. I suspect Saudi Arabia is playing both sides of the street while it is in its interests to do so.
8. Threaten to wipe out all Islamic Religous sites if the old Islam ever shows it face again. Hollow threats are useless.
If we were not so gluttonous about the easy money of oil, these people would not have a dime to their names to do much of anything. But they now have money and lots of it and presently can screw our economy with their oil.
Like I said… the real solution, if it’s anything like the above, will be a bitter pill at best.
TIGERESS
-
easy answer, ration gas, it was done in WW2 when there was no other choice, it can be today, now, within weeks.
OPEC will starve without the oil money.
-
Originally posted by AWMac
That really screwed up a good song.
Prancing Blonde Bimbos... how original.
*shakes head*
Mac
See thats what sucks about most of the new performers these days.
classic example.
besides horribly butchering a great song.(but thats besides the point)
She. like many many other performers these says. Sounds just like any of about a thousand other performers.
No original style or sound
Everyone just copycats each other
im not saying nobody has any original style
But Very very few performers do anymore
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I have only come up with a few ideas...
I am not so bold as to pronounce them as a solution, rather ideas for discussion on solution.
So everyone feel totally free to shoot as many holes in them as you possibly can. Simple dismissal is not a discussion.
Timetable: 7-10 years
0. Kick-start a full swing to Liquid Hydrogen as our primary fuel source to replace oil as much as possible.
1. Establish an international agreement by the G-7 nations declaring the Present Islamic Religion as a common threat to Humanity and kick Russia off the G-8.
2. Force the non-violent Islamic majority to fess up about the Quran and change their religion and if they don't then label them as enemies of Humanity and treat them accordingly. Make them do it, they know all about submission and domination.
3. Force China and Russia to back off from supporting rogue nations through the use of incrementally staged and serious economic sanctions.
4. Keep fighting the ground and air war as we have been.
5. Full G-7 boycott of Iran, Syria. Set a blockade on both; shoot anything that goes in or out.
6. After Iran and Syria are internationally declared Regimes of Islamic Threats to Humanity, invoke the draft and go to full time state of war. Go for the throat.
7. Watch Saudi Arabia team up with Iran. I suspect Saudi Arabia is playing both sides of the street while it is in its interests to do so.
8. Threaten to wipe out all Islamic Religous sites if the old Islam ever shows it face again. Hollow threats are useless.
If we were not so gluttonous about the easy money of oil, these people would not have a dime to their names to do much of anything. But they now have money and lots of it and presently can screw our economy with their oil.
Like I said… the real solution, if it’s anything like the above, will be a bitter pill at best.
TIGERESS
There's quite a few points' that people would argue here, Tigress-all sorts of counterpoints, that is.
The one I'm gonna use is this: These things' would ultimately have to be voted on in Congress, either the house or Senate. And, who has influence over how those Senators' and Representatives' vote? The constituents? The people outside holding signs and protesting? The keen intellect, and strong moral values that got those people elected in the first place?
No. If you actually hang out at the golf courses, resteraunts, Private hunting and fishing lodges, and vacation getaways, you see the real power behind the throne. It's the guy that is usually a corporate officer, for either a large multinational, or maybe even a member of a foreign government. Even though what they want is wrong, and against the wishes of his own constituents, The congressman will vote the way they want, because He stands' to make MUCH more than his already generous salary from the lobbyists' proposal. Oh, it won't be much, what the lobbyist wants-just a vote. And they are careful not to try to bite off more than they can chew. But bite they do. Because He's getting a huge "campaign contribution", an all-expenses paid vacation, And as soon as his deed is done, an end to the protestors' in front of his office-They'll go away, when they see that it's pointless after the fact.
What I'm trying to say, is this: our own gov't. is the Hydra.
It is our government that allows free trade with china, signs' things like NAFTA, joins the WTO, Get's mired down in proxy wars, and let's it's own economy ride itself to ruin.
Like I said in my first post, the Chinese are very patient. They can wait and bide their time. I personally believe that the communist leadership in China is willing to play this game to the end. I would even be willing to bet that they fund a communist party here in the U.S. to run against the other two-especially since the two parties(Dems' and Repub's) that sit in power now are already bad, and only promise to get worse.
Lasz, you mention that it is indeed the Chinese that are about to go idealogically bankrupt, and that WE only but have to wait for them to go belly up, Much the way the Soviet Union did in '91. Might I point out, that the Soviets are picking themselves up off the map, wiping the blood off they're chin, and getting ready to go another round? And this time, they'll have China for a tag-team partner.Deny it all you want, The truth is, China is becoming the economic powerhouse-Soon, they will be the technological and military one, as well.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
The (various) response(s) to the cartoons reveal (some) attitudes and mindsets. <- fixed
->Of course fear often leads to hate. <- (And confusion oft leads to fear)
Please bear in mind. Thank you. :aok
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. you need to think past the end of your nose.
Never been my problem, old son. even if you want to project it so.
Originally posted by lazs2
Your "hiding under the bed and hope for the best" theory does not sit well with me.
Not mine no matter how it sits. You're cooking your own gruel. See above. :D
Originally posted by lazs2
It also strikes me as funny as hell that the same lefties here who think that any mention of god in our government is the greatest threat to freedom since hitler... now are telling me that if we leave nations run by islamofacists alone everything will be just fine. I mean... how could they be a threat to anyone right?
lazs
Ahhh .... not only have you driven your car completely away from what I've suggested in the conversation .... you're not even dealing with me or my part in it whatsoever. Reinventing me so you can have a rant-hissy is no better than having imaginary friends, Laz. :aok
-
Originally posted by lazs2
DC... are you kidding?
Do you not get out much? Been visiting there a lot over the last couple of years. Bumper stickers reflecting a severe lack of a positive impression on the current state of affairs and the administration outnumber "W `04" or "Love the troops, love the mission" ones by an easy 2-1 margin.
;)
-
Originally posted by Neubob
Ok, that I do agree with.
And no, China and Russia are not the big enemies. They are more like us than most of think, and their goals more resemble ours than we give them credit for. Maybe that is the cause of the fear. The main difference is that we are established and they are emerging. We are settled in our success and put more weight on morality, where as they just want their place in the modern world. Regardless of what anybody on this board believes, there are few prominent leaders of industry in either Russia or China that reasonably expect any gain from the demise of Western Europe and the US.
As the adage goes, we are our most dangerous enemy.
Not a bad post though I challenge your perception that this country presently places more emphasis on morality, as per our present administration's perception (at least where the honest defense and support of the precepts behind our constitution lay).
I'm 93% behind you on this one and, frankly, I think it's gonna drive me to increase my alcohol consumption (maybe even try to get you to, with me). ;)
-
Originally posted by john9001
easy answer, ration gas, it was done in WW2 when there was no other choice, it can be today, now, within weeks.
OPEC will starve without the oil money.
Like the "global warming my arse" club could live a day without running an suv dry.
;)
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Not a bad post though I challenge your perception that this country presently places more emphasis on morality, as per our present administration's perception (at least where the honest defense and support of the precepts behind our constitution lay).
I'm 93% behind you on this one and, frankly, I think it's gonna drive me to increase my alcohol consumption (maybe even try to get you to, with me). ;)
Perhaps an obsession with maintaining the illusion of morality is more like it. Certainly nothing authentically righteous about the current administration. A lot of sanctimonious chest-pounding with the expected results. The American public I still have faith in, even though they did make Walmart what it is today.
Never imagined you were a big drinker, though, Arlo... And funny that you mentioned DC earlier on too. I've been living there on and off for the last 4 years.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
There's quite a few points' that people would argue here, Tigress-all sorts of counterpoints, that is.
The one I'm gonna use is this: These things' would ultimately have to be voted on in Congress, either the house or Senate. And, who has influence over how those Senators' and Representatives' vote? The constituents? The people outside holding signs and protesting? The keen intellect, and strong moral values that got those people elected in the first place?
No. If you actually hang out at the golf courses, resteraunts, Private hunting and fishing lodges, and vacation getaways, you see the real power behind the throne. It's the guy that is usually a corporate officer, for either a large multinational, or maybe even a member of a foreign government. Even though what they want is wrong, and against the wishes of his own constituents, The congressman will vote the way they want, because He stands' to make MUCH more than his already generous salary from the lobbyists' proposal. Oh, it won't be much, what the lobbyist wants-just a vote. And they are careful not to try to bite off more than they can chew. But bite they do. Because He's getting a huge "campaign contribution", an all-expenses paid vacation, And as soon as his deed is done, an end to the protestors' in front of his office-They'll go away, when they see that it's pointless after the fact.
What I'm trying to say, is this: our own gov't. is the Hydra.
It is our government that allows free trade with china, signs' things like NAFTA, joins the WTO, Get's mired down in proxy wars, and let's it's own economy ride itself to ruin.
Like I said in my first post, the Chinese are very patient. They can wait and bide their time. I personally believe that the communist leadership in China is willing to play this game to the end. I would even be willing to bet that they fund a communist party here in the U.S. to run against the other two-especially since the two parties(Dems' and Repub's) that sit in power now are already bad, and only promise to get worse.
Lasz, you mention that it is indeed the Chinese that are about to go idealogically bankrupt, and that WE only but have to wait for them to go belly up, Much the way the Soviet Union did in '91. Might I point out, that the Soviets are picking themselves up off the map, wiping the blood off they're chin, and getting ready to go another round? And this time, they'll have China for a tag-team partner.Deny it all you want, The truth is, China is becoming the economic powerhouse-Soon, they will be the technological and military one, as well.
Hi Frode,
Thanks for your input!!!! :)
I read very carefully what you wrote. I think it is absolutely spot on!!!
If the two political parties don't get their self-serving heads out of their bellybutton the American Public will dismiss them both... and both parties will have deserved it. Extremism is self-defeating in my opinion.
With regards to the list I drew up...
I expect debate and contention and many points of view. That is an extremely good thing. The real solution may not look anything like the list I drew up... I did it as the request of Lazs seeing that something to start with is better than nothing to start with.
In engineering we call such an initial document.. a Straw Man.
I have worked on many many engineering projects, both internally with my company colleagues and with customers. The person who stands up and says… it’s either my way or the highway is setting themselves up to get their six shot off.
It's not who can scream the loudest or pound the table the hardest and longest that matters.
What matters is mutual investment and ownership, and collective thinking and scrubbing to get the spec on target to get the job done right on the first go, in the shortest reasonable time to affect the needed results.
We make products for very sharp customers who expect to make money with what we produce... and we do that quite well.
I apply what I know how to do to any problem. I see this one as no different in that regards.
China and Russia of today is a serious problem. We, the USA are a serious problem. The Hydra is a serious problem. The situation seriously sucks. We owe it to the men and women of the armed forces to get it right. They do their job very well.
I firmly believe we have a critically serious leadership problem in this country, not just with Bush. I look at the candidates for President and see a pack of mediocre self-servers. Not one of them stands out to me... right or left.
Prehaps if we were not in a serious bind, it would not matter too much.
But we are in a most dangerous and critical bind and its getting worse.
Both political parties have their news outlets which filter and spin to their party's benefit. I love watching the spin on both parties news outlets. It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.
Why on earth we put up with that crap is beyond me. I think the American public is less informed about pertinent information and the truth more so now than ever before.
I tap into news outlets from other countries on the internet. Even Russia's.
They all spin but collectively, it sheds light.
The news needs to be complete and politically independant.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Like the "global warming my arse" club could live a day without running an suv dry.
;)
I drive a honda while Al Bore drives a fleet of SUVs.
Make you a deal, if you can get all the GWA to completely give up using any petroleum products for a year I'll join in whatever solution they want to try. Buying carbon credits doesn't count.
-
arlo.. I would say that I haven't addressed your point because you don't have a point.. I can't tell your jon stewart imitation from a point at the very least.. I can't tell if you really are as dumb as you seem in other words. I think you might find that... despite your scientific bumper sticker study... DC votes left and blue.
tigress... I asked for one solution that we could discuss. To break it down and we would take your points.. you gave me a rambling 7 points that anyone would look at as not reality.
Pick one of those seven and we will rip it a new one.. otherwise.. I just have to say that... blanket statement..... they are all wishful thinking and/or impossible and or/just plain silly
As for blue and red... it is a big deal.. I don't care if we "win" if that means we become more of a blue country... if a few vaporized blue countries get them to mind their own bussiness and stop making laws to take away freedom of the red areas... so be it.. it will be worth it.
I don't want to pull together with the blue people.. I don't want their idea of America.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. I would say that I haven't addressed your point because you don't have a point.. I can't tell your jon stewart imitation from a point at the very least.. I can't tell if you really are as dumb as you seem in other words. I think you might find that... despite your scientific bumper sticker study... DC votes left and blue.
tigress... I asked for one solution that we could discuss. To break it down and we would take your points.. you gave me a rambling 7 points that anyone would look at as not reality.
Pick one of those seven and we will rip it a new one.. otherwise.. I just have to say that... blanket statement..... they are all wishful thinking and/or impossible and or/just plain silly
As for blue and red... it is a big deal.. I don't care if we "win" if that means we become more of a blue country... if a few vaporized blue countries get them to mind their own bussiness and stop making laws to take away freedom of the red areas... so be it.. it will be worth it.
I don't want to pull together with the blue people.. I don't want their idea of America.
lazs
You have a choice... pick one.
TIGERESS
-
tigress.. I think that like all women.. you are the real hydra.. when it comes to "debate" that is.. cut down one arguement and you see it has grown 7 more heads that had nothing to do with the first.
but.. Ok.. I will play.. you said pick one... I will start with one. number zero, the fuel cell thing is unworkable at this time and I don't want the government to waste tax money on something free market should do soooo...
number one on your list..
"1. Establish an international agreement by the G-7 nations declaring the Present Islamic Religion as a common threat to Humanity and kick Russia off the G-8."
uh... do what? an international agreement? you mean get all these muslim filled countries that are afraid of their own people.. who are afraid to publish a cartoon fer chrissakes... you mean get them to declare a whole region as lepers and scum and a threat to humanity based on their religion of islam? and then... throw russia out like some beggar at the table who didn't have the proper attire?
Not that I think that this would not be great... entertaining at the least but... do you really think this is something we could even speak of much less do?
seriously... do you want me to go on to the rest of your list?
lazs
-
How sweet of you to call me Hydra. Are you Hercules?
Or are we back to Tarzan and Jane again? :rofl
You are so big and powerful and smart and I am just a woman.
awwww.... it it time for me to just hush-up and be obedient? :lol
I know how to play this game!
yes, master
TIGERESS
-
unconditional surrender won ww2, and it is the only way this war can be won as well! either by us, or them, or our gov. you may talk about how hittler was defeated but the people of germany were defeated as well, in dresden, and other places! hiroshima showed the japanese what lay ahead of them if they did not surrender! now what can we show the muslim world that will make them change there minds about global domination? the threat of extinction? that is the only way we know that has worked! soviet leaders used this tactic to survive the cold war as well as us. the threat of total annihilation wins the war with less casualties than any other! the alternative is u.s. gov. surrender so that the free people of this country can destroy the threat as it presents itself without fear of anything exept death! sounds pretty harsh im sure but i am a realist i dont like to play this game for real. i am way more comfortable in ah shooting down bad guys that just reup in a new plane so givin the chance i would defend this country, and my freinds, to the death,, but hope that the threat of this would, in itself, prevent the need to do so !!!
war is not pretty, it is not fun, but it must be fought to win when used.
my intent was not to hurt your feelings but to give my perspective, as i have lived as a soldier and stood on that line pulled the trigger and pulled it again, wishing the bad guys would stop coming so i didnt have to shoot them anymore.
-
Originally posted by WWhiskey
the threat of total annihilation wins the war with less casualties than any other!
a very interesting point there.
look at this for a minute and tell me whats different about 1945 and now.
1) A-bomb dropped. bodes total anihilation for the enemy and therefore ends a war.
2)Planes flown into buildings. Bodes total anihilation for ourselves and therefore starts a war.
this war will never end. i dont think even an A bomb will be enough to stop it, the survivors will still fight on.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Might I point out, that the Soviets are picking themselves up off the map, wiping the blood off they're chin, and getting ready to go another round? And this time, they'll have China for a tag-team partner.Deny it all you want, The truth is, China is becoming the economic powerhouse-Soon, they will be the technological and military one, as well.
Well at least I got a chuckle out of that one.
-
planes flown into a building did not bode total anihilation, it was a wake up call, alot like pearl harbor, only against the people, not the military. i hope we didnt hit the snooze button to long!
the end of our way of life is what is at stake , not just our lives. i dont want to fight them but will not run away. i think i will leave this thread alone for a while as i dont like how it makes me feel. im just here for the fun right now
-
WWhiskey,
There are a lot of people who are in denial about a lot of things. I just let them shuffle along thinking what they have made up their minds to think and their inventing of stuff instead of being informed.
Anyone watch the program last evening on The History Channel about Iran? I only got to see part of it... drats
It made me feel a little better to see information about the Special Ops used against Iran and the serious economic arm-twisting the US exerted against China to force them to stop directly exporting nuclear technology to Iran.
I don't trust China and Russia as far as I can spit but also I think we create fear in them causing them stand against us. go figure
mmmm.... serious economic arm-twisting of China; that was on my list.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Well at least I got a chuckle out of that one.
You and Lazs are endless sources of chuckles for me dear! :rofl
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
You and Lazs are endless sources of chuckles for me dear! l
TIGERESS
You should be on this side of the screen. :)
-
second that... u should read the PM's I get.
tigress.. debate with you is the hydra. you are all over the map.. show that one of your main points is total bs and you pretend you never said it and go into song or something while going on a whole other tangent. or seven.
I took one of your points (not counting the hydrogen one) and explained patiently how it was not workable.. what we are doing is workable.
shall we take your other points and laugh at them? I don't think anyone took them seriously tho.
"wake up"?? are you kidding? from the start I have said we will have to fight these guys sooner or latter and there or here.. they are 9th century and 9th century is all about conquer and enslave. Hell... if you go to communism.. it is 19th century but still... conquer and enslave.
We made mistakes with them.. Patton was right..we should have kept on going and beaten russia. So what? in the end we won anyway.
we keep winning because our system is superior and... we are the most moral superpower the world has ever known.
I am an optimist... we may not always be the most moral superpower the world has ever known but it will be because an even more moral one takes our place.. not because we will lose our way.
your depressing scenario depends on communism and islam remaining steeped in the past and the world simply accepting that type of morality.
I say.. they will change...not us.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Well at least I got a chuckle out of that one.
And that is the attitude(from the west) that has let China become the threat they are today.
-
and if they wont change, they will die..
Even the trees in the forest are fighting each other for sunlight. life is conflict by nature so we may as well be good at it, eh?
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
and if they wont change, they will die..
Even the trees in the forest are fighting each other for sunlight. life is conflict by nature so we may as well be good at it, eh?
We didn't get to this point, in the life of America, by taking the easy way out when the going got rough.
Equally important, we will cease to be what America stands for by becoming like them.
This is why our path is harder... than the path of a Hitler lead Nazi Germany or a Stalin lead Soviet Union.
The German people are good people as are the Russian people.
Democracy and the Rule of Law is the difference.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by lazs2
second that... u should read the PM's I get.
tigress.. debate with you is the hydra. you are all over the map.. show that one of your main points is total bs and you pretend you never said it and go into song or something while going on a whole other tangent. or seven.
I took one of your points (not counting the hydrogen one) and explained patiently how it was not workable.. what we are doing is workable.
shall we take your other points and laugh at them? I don't think anyone took them seriously tho.
"wake up"?? are you kidding? from the start I have said we will have to fight these guys sooner or latter and there or here.. they are 9th century and 9th century is all about conquer and enslave. Hell... if you go to communism.. it is 19th century but still... conquer and enslave.
We made mistakes with them.. Patton was right..we should have kept on going and beaten russia. So what? in the end we won anyway.
we keep winning because our system is superior and... we are the most moral superpower the world has ever known.
I am an optimist... we may not always be the most moral superpower the world has ever known but it will be because an even more moral one takes our place.. not because we will lose our way.
your depressing scenario depends on communism and islam remaining steeped in the past and the world simply accepting that type of morality.
I say.. they will change...not us.
lazs
You should see the PMs I get!!! hahahahaha :rofl
You simply dismissed item number 0. That was totally in character for you.
You also have a habit of declaring your opinions as facts. lol
You have a pattern of attacking and dismissal, not objectively discussing.
You often try to intimidate me; you are not the first guy to try that and you wont be the last.
I want to get along with you and discuss our differences. What do you want?
We will shift to liquid Hydrogen as a primary fuel source to replace oil as much as possible, regardless of your dismissal as unworkable.
The issue is not IF... it is WHEN. It is in the national interests to do so.
Patton had a point about Stalin and his USSR but Patton was narrow viewed.
He was a professional warrior and knew he was out of the war business when WWII concluded. A lot of people would have died needlessly had he been allowed to start a war with the USSR.
With that said... Patton was a great patriot and general and hero; he was also his own worst enemy and he knew it.
TIGERESS
PS: See what the US Department of Energy says about Hydrogen Fuel: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/
an excerpt: "Hydrogen and fuel cells have the potential to solve several major challenges facing America today: dependence on petroleum imports, poor air quality, and greenhouse gas emissions.
The Hydrogen, Fuel Cells & Infrastructure Technologies Program is working with partners to accelerate the development and successful market introduction of these technologies."
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
We didn't get to this point, in the life of America, by taking the easy way out when the going got rough.
Equally important, we will cease to be what America stands for by becoming like them.
This is why our path is harder... than the path of a Hitler lead Nazi Germany or a Stalin lead Soviet Union.
The German people are good people as are the Russian people.
Democracy and the Rule of Law is the difference.
TIGERESS
I agree with you that your ideals are amoung the best in the world to be sure ma'am, yet, youre talking to the wrong guy about politics. I despise and shun the concept that any of us are moving in the right direction not even the good ol US of A. i really cant believe in anything the human race has accomplished since the peaks of Egyptian civilization four thousand years ago being anything other than self obsesive and devolutionary procrastination.
the way we say " oo we are right and we are true, we are not bad guys like the nazi leaders." but hey, nazi germany would have been a world wide government overnight had they tried the move even two hundred years before. all the great leaders of history were fiends. just because we now claim not to be harsh in rule this means that thousands of years of human existance were lived sub standard to ours now?
all of us stupid humans running around thinking how important we all are when really we are the same as bacteria multiplying in a petry dish.
you know why nothing else comes to our planet? cos its infected with us lot.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
all of us stupid humans running around thinking how important we all are when really we are the same as bacteria multiplying in a petry dish.
Bluebonnets are a wildflower that flourish in the spring in Texas. It's not uncommon to see a car parked on the side of a highway with people out taking pictures. My comment that viewed from a wider angle and broader time span these flowers seem much like mold growing on old bread rarely receives much appreciation.
-
:rofl
honesty is not the best way to make friends and influence people. funny how some people will always choose to be offended by honesty rather than find humour or seek a real answer to what bothers them and at the same time will happily lap up the act of a dishonest person without questioning it at all.
-
I did read about he first 1/3rd of the posts in this thread. It seemed to be getting a bit redundant at that point.
This war is different from any war the USA has ever been involved in. We are trying to view it as a secular war, it isn't. It is a religious war.
What we really have to understand is that these people are extremists. There simply is no way to negotiate with them. Attempts to do so are seen as weakness on our part and merely encourage them to continue to do what they have been doing. Every news story demanding that we pull out or insisting that we are losing is merely encouraging them to redouble their efforts.
Their stated goals are the death or enslavement of anyone that does not believe they way they believe. How do you negotiate with that? While I do not believe that invading Iraq was a good choice, it has been done and to back out without succeeding there would be catastrophic. If you think that our being in Iraq is creating more terrorists, just think about great their recruiting efforts would be if we lose.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
I agree with you that your ideals are amoung the best in the world to be sure ma'am, yet, youre talking to the wrong guy about politics. I despise and shun the concept that any of us are moving in the right direction not even the good ol US of A. i really cant believe in anything the human race has accomplished since the peaks of Egyptian civilization four thousand years ago being anything other than self obsesive and devolutionary procrastination.
the way we say " oo we are right and we are true, we are not bad guys like the nazi leaders." but hey, nazi germany would have been a world wide government overnight had they tried the move even two hundred years before. all the great leaders of history were fiends. just because we now claim not to be harsh in rule this means that thousands of years of human existance were lived sub standard to ours now?
all of us stupid humans running around thinking how important we all are when really we are the same as bacteria multiplying in a petry dish.
you know why nothing else comes to our planet? cos its infected with us lot.
Obviously spoken with passion.
We are flawed... the human race... all of us.
To strive for fairness and respect for people moves us from the jungle towards the Creator, IMV.
The USA is a bully... no mistaking it.
Our ideals of democracy... and striving for them, makes our country stand out from the dictatorships of the world.
Breaking our own laws in the name of "The ends justify the means" is a step away from the ideals the USA was founded upon, IMV.
That is why I believe our path is harder... and when we step off that path... we need to own up to it and get back on the path.
It is a worthy path.
TIGERESS
-
As for blue and red... it is a big deal.. I don't care if we "win" if that means we become more of a blue country... if a few vaporized blue countries get them to mind their own bussiness and stop making laws to take away freedom of the red areas... so be it.. it will be worth it.
I don't want to pull together with the blue people.. I don't want their idea of America.
lazs [/B]
Because freedom of speech, self expression and opinion is a bad thing.
Habeas Corpus, due process.... Bad thing.
No torture under any guise... bad thing.
Freedom from dogmatic religion in policy decisions... BAD?
Laz, leave the country or throw yourself on a Bonzai sword. All of these things were given to this country in the Declaration and the Constitution.
I hereby annoint you Nutjob status, with all writ and privilege therein.
-
Originally posted by NoBaddy
I did read about he first 1/3rd of the posts in this thread. It seemed to be getting a bit redundant at that point.
This war is different from any war the USA has ever been involved in. We are trying to view it as a secular war, it isn't. It is a religious war.
What we really have to understand is that these people are extremists. There simply is no way to negotiate with them. Attempts to do so are seen as weakness on our part and merely encourage them to continue to do what they have been doing. Every news story demanding that we pull out or insisting that we are losing is merely encouraging them to redouble their efforts.
Their stated goals are the death or enslavement of anyone that does not believe they way they believe. How do you negotiate with that? While I do not believe that invading Iraq was a good choice, it has been done and to back out without succeeding there would be catastrophic. If you think that our being in Iraq is creating more terrorists, just think about great their recruiting efforts would be if we lose.
The negotiating of which I spoke was not us negotiating with the Hydra.
That is folly, imv.
Rather, negotiate with our Allies on reaching a consensus on dealing with them instead of unilaterally mandating to our Allies.
We are in a catch 22, imv. We can't stop shooting them and doing so strengthens them. dang!
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Neubob
The American public I still have faith in, even though they did make Walmart what it is today.
Heh. True dat. (Winces)
Originally posted by Neubob
Never imagined you were a big drinker, though, Arlo... And funny that you mentioned DC earlier on too. I've been living there on and off for the last 4 years.
I take that as an invite to booze up next time I'm up that way. :D
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Make you a deal, if you can get all the GWA to completely give up using any petroleum products for a year I'll join in whatever solution they want to try. Buying carbon credits doesn't count.
Sorry, my mind-control ray is on the fritz, Fritz.
And you have the gall to challenge other's realism regarding pov. Way to play the safe bet. You'll do what you want to, others be damned anyhow.
:D :aok
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. I would say that I haven't addressed your point because you don't have a point .. despite your scientific bumper sticker study... DC votes left and blue.
Which confirms what I stated. Which, apparently, is pointless? Less crack, more oxygen, Laz. :D
Originally posted by lazs2
As for blue and red... it is a big deal.. I don't care if we "win" if that means we become more of a blue country... if a few vaporized blue countries get them to mind their own bussiness and stop making laws to take away freedom of the red areas... so be it.. it will be worth it.
I don't want to pull together with the blue people.. I don't want their idea of America.
That's your hang-up. You see the world through your customized pair of hyper-"conservative" rosy red glasses which has nothing to do with what America was, is and should be but everything to do with what you imagine all such to be. And wanting to rid America of anything and everyone that doesn't have your exact same hang-ups makes you nothing more than an opinionated speedbump. The neocon movement is waning here. Sorry. :D
-
Originally posted by lazs2
second that... u should read the PM's I get.
Quit trying to convince everyone how popular you are, Laz. ;) :D
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
I have only come up with a few ideas...
I am not so bold as to pronounce them as a solution, rather ideas for discussion on solution.
So everyone feel totally free to shoot as many holes in them as you possibly can. Simple dismissal is not a discussion.
Timetable: 7-10 years
0. Kick-start a full swing to Liquid Hydrogen as our primary fuel source to replace oil as much as possible.
1. Establish an international agreement by the G-7 nations declaring the Present Islamic Religion as a common threat to Humanity and kick Russia off the G-8.
2. Force the non-violent Islamic majority to fess up about the Quran and change their religion and if they don't then label them as enemies of Humanity and treat them accordingly. Make them do it, they know all about submission and domination.
3. Force China and Russia to back off from supporting rogue nations through the use of incrementally staged and serious economic sanctions.
4. Keep fighting the ground and air war as we have been.
5. Full G-7 boycott of Iran, Syria. Set a blockade on both; shoot anything that goes in or out.
6. After Iran and Syria are internationally declared Regimes of Islamic Threats to Humanity, invoke the draft and go to full time state of war. Go for the throat.
7. Watch Saudi Arabia team up with Iran. I suspect Saudi Arabia is playing both sides of the street while it is in its interests to do so.
8. Threaten to wipe out all Islamic Religous sites if the old Islam ever shows it face again. Hollow threats are useless.
If we were not so gluttonous about the easy money of oil, these people would not have a dime to their names to do much of anything. But they now have money and lots of it and presently can screw our economy with their oil.
Like I said… the real solution, if it’s anything like the above, will be a bitter pill at best.
TIGERESS
I agree with a-lot of that, except I don't see the Arab / Sunni loyal Saudis ever siding with the Persian / Shia loyal Iranians. Never say never, but its unlikely IMO. These folks are super loyal to their brethren for the duration, one reason many regular folks over there don't trust the US is because our loyalties change depending on which party is in power... this isn't a concept they accept, to them, in the overall sense, we believe in nothing and are loyal to nobody except the one country they hate: Israel.
I also don't think the current situation is anywhere dire enough for all out war on all fronts... I would suggest the govts of the worlds powers allow everyday middle class people to negotiate and talk out our differences.
Imagine 10 everyday people like AH bbs'ers, and 10 average Iranians in the same room, I'd bet that within 2 hours all would come to realize we have more things in common than not, and most of the fiery rhetoric of our leaders is a steaming pile of fecal matter.
Of course this will never happen, the repubs, Dems.. just like their Mullah counter parts, have their own agendas that have nothing to do with eeking out a peaceful happy existence.
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
Imagine 10 everyday people like AH bbs'ers, and 10 average Iranians in the same room,
can i bring my guns?
-
Originally posted by john9001
can i bring my guns?
I imagine this is your typical response to any kind of outing. ;)
-
Imagine 10 everyday people like AH bbs'ers, and 10 average Iranians in the same room, I'd bet that within 2 hours all would come to realize we have more things in common than not, and most of the fiery rhetoric of our leaders is a steaming pile of fecal matter.
That would depend on the 10 AH BBs'ers. You can't even put ten into the same virtual room without a poo fight.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
That would depend on the 10 AH BBs'ers. You can't even put ten into the same virtual room without a poo fight.
I really laughed when I read this! :rofl :rofl :rofl
TIGERESS
-
moray... gun control laws affect me every day... seatbelt and helmet laws affect me every day.. taxes affect me every day.. gas taxes.. fees.. recycle fees.. fees on taxes on fees. the threat of socialized medicine affects me every day.. the lack of school vouchers affects me every day... afirmative action and PC affects me every day...
and.. it is all blue state crap and it is all unconstitutional.. now explain to me how I am going to get along with your people? I don't want what you have to offer and I resent you wanting to control everything about my daily life.
tigress... I did address your hydrogen item.. I dismissed it because there was not substance. It is like saying.. make pollution go away. sounds good but the cure is often worse than the disease. You can't "make" hydrogen become viable.. in fact.. as other threads have shown.. it may be a blind alley at this point taking more energy to make than it produces... it is at best...step two after electricity becomes free.
sooo.. lets take your item number two... "2. Force the non-violent Islamic majority to fess up about the Quran and change their religion and if they don't then label them as enemies of Humanity and treat them accordingly. Make them do it, they know all about submission and domination."
holy moly!!! you are gonna FORCE a religion to say that the book their religion is based on is wrong and then tell them to change their religion? make them submit through domination? And you think we had a hard time getting the world to look at the sadmans weapons program?
sooo... back to the idea of yours to FORCE em to spit on their bible and convert... how exactly do we do this again? I missed it.. I admit that I doze off reading your posts from time to time but... I don't think you quite fleshed that one out.
maybe xmarine of arlo can explain how that one could be workable and what the steps are?
lazs
-
and moray... "freedom of speech"??? are you talking about the people who invented "hate speech" and PC and who wanted to take away the credentials of any scientist who disagreed that man was causing global warming? are you talking about hate crimes and the people who want "the fairness doctrine" to shut down talk radio?
What was that about the constitution again you were babbling about?
lazs
-
If the democrats really wanted fairness they'd stop buying votes with money stolen from those who are paying the bills in this country. Lemme ask a question of those of you who have rasied kids. When you were supporting your kids, providing for all of their needs, who made the decisions? Sure, you solicited input from your kids and you may have even voted on where to go out to eat. I bet you didn't let them decide when to start driving or drinking or whether they should go to school or not.
IMO, citizenship should be more than just being born in this country and taking up space. It should mean becoming a responsible and contributing member of society. If you are nothing but a burden on society, why should we let you have an equal say in the use of our shared resources? Grow up, shoulder your share of the burden, and join in making responsible, not selfish, decisions.
-
Carefull there Akiron, You are starting to sound kinda like......me! Along with others who also like the Heinlein way of looking at things.
:p
-
I wouldn't go so far as to require military service for citizenship as in Heinlein's Starship Troopers, just being a nickle on the plus side should get ya the right to vote.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
That would depend on the 10 AH BBs'ers. You can't even put ten into the same virtual room without a poo fight.
I'll qualify that; average adult AH BBS'ers with confirmed human DNA.
Average people, Iranian or American, just want to get on with their life with out being messed with, thats where US foreign policy fails. When US policies of sanctions and whatnot begin to disrupt the average persons day, they have reasons to wake up and hate on us.
Our freedoms have zero affect on their daily lives, our sanctions et al on the other hand...
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
I'll qualify that; average adult AH BBS'ers with confirmed human DNA.
Average people, Iranian or American, just want to get on with their life with out being messed with, thats where US foreign policy fails. When US policies of sanctions and whatnot begin to disrupt the average persons day, they have reasons to wake up and hate on us.
Our freedoms have zero affect on their daily lives, our sanctions et al on the other hand...
Ok, but...I don't think that there is really an 'average' American anymore...
When you consider sending 10 people from all walks' of life, you see that the paths' stray quite a bit. X, you been to the 'hood more than once. You know that if you take a cholo off of Flower & Crenshaw, and put him in the same room with a farmer from Illinois, you are not gonna have people with the same world view. Hell, even put him in with people from Rancho Palos-Verdes, you'll see what I mean. And I also know that with Islam, it depends' on which sect you identify with; Shia and Sunni don't always mix, am I right?
BTW, with the American example, I could have gone on and on( everyone reading knows this, I just don't want to sit here typing for an hour formatting as many different subgroups' of the 'Melting pot' when most who read this already know who they are.) I don't believe in the 'Average American' anymore, Things' have changed too much.
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
I'll qualify that; average adult AH BBS'ers with confirmed human DNA.
Average people, Iranian or American, just want to get on with their life with out being messed with, thats where US foreign policy fails. When US policies of sanctions and whatnot begin to disrupt the average persons day, they have reasons to wake up and hate on us.
Our freedoms have zero affect on their daily lives, our sanctions et al on the other hand...
Foriegn policy for any country never deals with the "average people". Foriegn policy deals with governments, not "average people". :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
Average people, Iranian or American, just want to get on with their life with out being messed with, thats where US foreign policy fails. When US policies of sanctions and whatnot begin to disrupt the average persons day, they have reasons to wake up and hate on us.
al qaeda has just called for the overthrow of the governments of Libya, Morocco, and Algeria, i guess al qaeda doesnt like their "foreign policies" also.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
holy moly!!! you are gonna FORCE a religion to say that the book their religion is based on is wrong and then tell them to change their religion? make them submit through domination? And you think we had a hard time getting the world to look at the sadmans weapons program?
sooo... back to the idea of yours to FORCE em to spit on their bible and convert... how exactly do we do this again? I missed it.. I admit that I doze off reading your posts from time to time but... I don't think you quite fleshed that one out.
maybe xmarine (or) arlo can explain how that one could be workable and what the steps are?
You obviously do doze off. I already commented on how that's not a practical option. But at least Tigress is offering options and throwing more out there than "All Muslims suck, man." :D
-
The "option" of getting the entire world to indict islam as a backwards and dangerous religion is about as workable as saying Peter Pan will sprinkle magic dust on you so you can think happy thoughts and fly.
Providing "options" is nice, provided the "option" has even an infinitesimal chance of being successful. That particular "option" she listed doesn't qualify.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
The "option" of getting the entire world to indict islam as a backwards and dangerous religion is about as workable as saying Peter Pan will sprinkle magic dust on you so you can think happy thoughts and fly.
Providing "options" is nice, provided the "option" has even an infinitesimal chance of being successful. That particular "option" she listed doesn't qualify.
Then we can explore more, eh? But at least she's taking the steps. :D
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Timetable: 7-10 years
0. Kick-start a full swing to Liquid Hydrogen as our primary fuel source to replace oil as much as possible.
Where will the income and finances for a very large percentage of our population come from......or is bankruptcy and taking a large percentage out of the loop acceptable.
2. Force the non-violent Islamic majority to fess up about the Quran and change their religion and if they don't then label them as enemies of Humanity and treat them accordingly. Make them do it, they know all about submission and domination.
When pigs fly.
3. Force China and Russia to back off from supporting rogue nations through the use of incrementally staged and serious economic sanctions.
This entails what for example?
5. Full G-7 boycott of Iran, Syria. Set a blockade on both; shoot anything that goes in or out.
In other words declare war against Russia. We all know they are our allies and was supporting earlier blockades into Iraq...right?
6. After Iran and Syria are internationally declared Regimes of Islamic Threats to Humanity, invoke the draft and go to full time state of war. Go for the throat.
So.....we will add China, Syria, Iran and Russia to the all out war list?
7. Watch Saudi Arabia team up with Iran. I suspect Saudi Arabia is playing both sides of the street while it is in its interests to do so.
Saudi Arabia will go with the flow that produces the most cash flow with the least amount of boat rocking?
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Where will the income and finances for a very large percentage of our population come from......or is bankruptcy and taking a large percentage out of the loop acceptable.
When pigs fly.
This entails what for example?
In other words declare war against Russia. We all know they are our allies and was supporting earlier blockades into Iraq...right?
So.....we will add China, Syria, Iran and Russia to the all out war list?
Saudi Arabia will go with the flow that produces the most cash flow with the least amount of boat rocking?
thanks for you input
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
I agree with a-lot of that, except I don't see the Arab / Sunni loyal Saudis ever siding with the Persian / Shia loyal Iranians. Never say never, but its unlikely IMO. These folks are super loyal to their brethren for the duration, one reason many regular folks over there don't trust the US is because our loyalties change depending on which party is in power... this isn't a concept they accept, to them, in the overall sense, we believe in nothing and are loyal to nobody except the one country they hate: Israel.
I also don't think the current situation is anywhere dire enough for all out war on all fronts... I would suggest the govts of the worlds powers allow everyday middle class people to negotiate and talk out our differences.
Imagine 10 everyday people like AH bbs'ers, and 10 average Iranians in the same room, I'd bet that within 2 hours all would come to realize we have more things in common than not, and most of the fiery rhetoric of our leaders is a steaming pile of fecal matter.
Of course this will never happen, the repubs, Dems.. just like their Mullah counter parts, have their own agendas that have nothing to do with eeking out a peaceful happy existence.
Hi x0847Marine,
Thanks for you comments! :)
On Saudi Arabia...
I dont trust them... and never have trusted them.
Can't say what they will do when the USA goes to war with Iran.
But I would certianly not depend on them allowing the US to use bases there in the event of war with Iran.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Maverick
The "option" of getting the entire world to indict islam as a backwards and dangerous religion is about as workable as saying Peter Pan will sprinkle magic dust on you so you can think happy thoughts and fly.
Providing "options" is nice, provided the "option" has even an infinitesimal chance of being successful. That particular "option" she listed doesn't qualify.
In my opinion, Islam as written is a threat to Humanity.
Have you read any of the Quran? yes/no lol
TIGERESS
-
Yes. I'm not waiting for the movie to come out either.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
In my opinion, Islam as written is a threat to Humanity.
Have you read any of the Quran? yes/no lol
TIGERESS
Yes. And I've come to the conclusion that it is no more of a threat to humanity than the Christian bible, Torah, book of Morman or the Tao.
Radicals are the threat to humanity. Some of them use religious texts to rationalize their sociopathic behavior. Some of them use political agenda to do so. Some don't bother using either.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
On Saudi Arabia...
I dont trust them... and never have trusted them.
Can't say what they will do when the USA goes to war with Iran.
But I would certianly not depend on them allowing the US to use bases there in the event of war with Iran.
TIGERESS
:)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/22_1194225521_me.jpg)
We haven`t been real estate shopping for Holiday Inn franchise locations.
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Yes. And I've come to the conclusion that it is no more of a threat to humanity than the Christian bible, Torah, book of Morman or the Tao.
Radicals are the threat to humanity. Some of them use religious texts to rationalize their sociopathic behavior. Some of them use political agenda to do so. Some don't bother using either.
Hi Arlo :)
I appreciate what you are saying… and discussion is marvlous!
The problem arises when someone simply dismisses.
The more we talk about it, the more individual views are expressed and discussed, the better the collective thinking becomes.
The difference is the enforcement of the rules of Islam and the nature and infusion of Islam into Governments… Islamic Theocracies.
Ever hear of Christian Moral Police as an arm of the Government? roaming the streets selecting people to censure due to their dress or behavior viewed as being in violation of the written rules of Christianity?
Or Christian "honor killings" condoned legally by the government?
Or the enforcement of the treatment of women as slaves?
Or Christian terrorists bent on vaporizing cities to force foreign governments to become Christian Theocracies?
There are serious differences between Islamic Regimes and the Protestant Church or Catholic Church or a local Buddhist Temple or a Jewish Temple down the street.
This is the 21st Century… not 907 AD.
I am of the opinion the average citizen of such theocracies are more victomized than anyone.
The Westboro Baptist Church is dismissed as a pack of nutjobs, even by the majority of the strict Christian-Based Conserative Rupublican Party.
TIGERESS
-
arlo.. try to keep up. I was replying to her. I was taking her points one at a time..
At least you noted that, so far.. at least that one.. was laughable.
Was there any of her points that you agreed with of the seven? I bet you do agree that she has a good lefty way of putting them tho.. ask for one and she gives 7 but really... she only says seven.. she really goes has eight.. tries to hide a zero.
We are doing something.. it is about all we can do... Hell... you think even that is too much and now... you want to go to war against the entire muslim religion? make up your mind..
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. try to keep up. I was replying to her. I was taking her points one at a time..
At least you noted that, so far.. at least that one.. was laughable.
Was there any of her points that you agreed with of the seven? I bet you do agree that she has a good lefty way of putting them tho.. ask for one and she gives 7 but really... she only says seven.. she really goes has eight.. tries to hide a zero.
We are doing something.. it is about all we can do... Hell... you think even that is too much and now... you want to go to war against the entire muslim religion? make up your mind..
lazs
Hi Lazs,
What was your take on the US Dept of Energy stance and action re: Hydrogen fuel?
I detect that even though you feel your strongly held belief system is important to you, personally... you also have the ability to think outside that box, even if you wont admit it to anyone.
You have let your humanity show through Mr gunslinger. :)
Just an instinct about you.
Thinking outside the box is not a weakness... it is a strength, in my view. :)
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
:)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/22_1194225521_me.jpg)
We haven`t been real estate shopping for Holiday Inn franchise locations.
Thank you for the map, Jackal dear.
TIGERESS
-
you just now noted that I don't think like everyone else? Here's a clue... no one thinks like everyone else.
hydrogen? it takes more energy to make (electricity at this point) than the energy you get out of it.. it is dangerous and difficult to use. I don't see it as viable until we have almost free electricity and at that point... so many other doors will be open that it will just be a sideshow.
You can get free electricity from the sun.. it won't work all the time...night for instance.... more and more homes are using panels to make their bill... $0 they mostly still need to be hooked up to the grid tho.. but they sell back power during the day and it is used to run industry and take a load off the grid.
At that point... I will have solar and septic and a well and hope I never have to deal with any fee taxing taxing the fee on taxes petty little recycler socialist and..
I will build some damn 3 sec 0-60 electric car to get around in and keep the hot rods for the smell and the noise.
The free market is doing it right now. cost is about half what it was 10 years ago.. seen houses go up that the panels were in the roof tiles... looked like "normal" tiles.
soon... home depot will be selling solar panels for a couple grand...
All this depends on the government staying out of the way. I don't want em going crazy and making even more government and taxes to support some hydrogen project that may or may not pan out.
They would need to tax and to restrict.. I never think that the end justifies the means except in hindsight.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Yes. I'm not waiting for the movie to come out either.
lol cute!
No, I doubt the movie will be forthcoming as a feature length motion picture for entertainment and making box office revenues.
The WTC and Pentagon attacks speak for themselves and have changed our lives forever.
I do not consider the Islamic Threat to be hollow.
I take it with upmost seriousness.
(http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/IslamicHolyWar.jpg)
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Hien
I am sticking by my personal belief that human life should not be wasted. Last I checked we're the smartest things on this planet (Next to Dolphins and Mice, yo.*) and all we seem to be really good at is killing each other, and everything else with us. Though I do like a good explosion.
Thanks for all the fish Hien!
-
Originally posted by lazs2
you just now noted that I don't think like everyone else? Here's a clue... no one thinks like everyone else.
hydrogen? it takes more energy to make (electricity at this point) than the energy you get out of it.. it is dangerous and difficult to use. I don't see it as viable until we have almost free electricity and at that point... so many other doors will be open that it will just be a sideshow.
You can get free electricity from the sun.. it won't work all the time...night for instance.... more and more homes are using panels to make their bill... $0 they mostly still need to be hooked up to the grid tho.. but they sell back power during the day and it is used to run industry and take a load off the grid.
At that point... I will have solar and septic and a well and hope I never have to deal with any fee taxing taxing the fee on taxes petty little recycler socialist and..
I will build some damn 3 sec 0-60 electric car to get around in and keep the hot rods for the smell and the noise.
The free market is doing it right now. cost is about half what it was 10 years ago.. seen houses go up that the panels were in the roof tiles... looked like "normal" tiles.
soon... home depot will be selling solar panels for a couple grand...
All this depends on the government staying out of the way. I don't want em going crazy and making even more government and taxes to support some hydrogen project that may or may not pan out.
They would need to tax and to restrict.. I never think that the end justifies the means except in hindsight.
lazs
I noticed immediately, your strongly held beliefs and outspokenness.
Like, how could I not? lol
Hydrogen got a bad rap due to the airship explosions of the first half of the 20th century.
Also the word Hydrogen is linked to nuclear power... yet another scary.
Power is dangerous by virtue of being power... even the power of love.
But we can not exist without power. Oil is nuclear based power from the Sun and can be quite dangerous.
Ask anyone who has had napalm dropped on their heads or has been in a refinery explosion or car explosion or fire.
Hydrogen fuel, as you no doubt know, is created by seperating Hydrogen atoms from H2O molecules.
Yes it takes energy to separate them little atoms from each other.
Energy is simply... matter converted to dynamic or potential energy... power.
Charging a lead acid battery creates Hydrogen, thus the caution about charging a battery in a well ventilated space.
We have nuclear power plants and hydro-electric power plants and solar power plants... sources of power used to seperate H2O molecules into Hydrogen atoms and Oxygen atoms... a storable portable energy source.
I do not believe it takes more energy to convert H2O into separate atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen than the Hydrogen atoms produce when burned.
Perhaps I am mistaken on this... do you have references to support that claim?
In the present case of nuclear fusion... it required more energy to cause atomic fusion than the energy it produces.
Nuclear fusion is the long sought holy grail of energy by research nuclear scientists.
All the Best,
TIGERESS
edit: Why is it of the utmost importance that we discover H20 on other worlds if we are to explore the solar system and other star systems?
It goes well beyond having something to drink. Separation of H20 into hydrogen and oxygen will fuel spaceship engines and give us something to breath.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/IntermediateHydrogen.html
-
President Bush's Hydrogen Fuel Initiative:
A Clean and Secure Energy Future
"A simple chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen generates energy, which can be used to power a car producing only water, not exhaust fumes. With a new national commitment, our scientists and engineers will overcome obstacles to taking these cars from laboratory to showroom so that the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen, and pollution-free. Join me in this important innovation to make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of energy."
— President Bush, State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/presidents_initiative.html
I believe when enough immediate importance is placed on accelerating this, we will be independent of foreign oil dependence for the security of the nation.
There has been too much money to be made in oil to have placed national security needs over the easy money of oil.
We went to the moon in 1969 because it was deemed a national priority to do so.
TIGERESS
-
"Whether or not we get a hydrogen infrastructure, it doesn't matter, because China will be the first hydrogen economy." -General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz
following from: http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage6000.html
Publication Date:14-September-2006
11:00 PM US Eastern Timezone
Source:Thomas Watkins-Associated Press
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - Hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicles could hit showrooms as early as 2011, General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said Thursday.
Calling the effort a "moon shot," Lutz said it is vital the world's largest auto maker commits to the new technology, so it can win back its reputation as an innovator and design leader.
"This is to re-establish our technological credentials with the American public and the American media," said Lutz, who spoke at the military base where the company was delivering a hydrogen concept car that will be test-driven by Marines in coming months.
"And it has a huge re-moralizing effect in the company as our people see how serious we are," he added.
Up to $9 billion has been freed up as a result of General Motors' recent restructuring, Lutz said. The company now has more money to invest in hydrogen fuel cell-powered cars, which will form an important part of the auto giant's long-term economic recovery plan.
The company, which is suffering from declining U.S. market share at the hands of its Asian competitors, lost $8.6 billion in 2005 amid high healthcare, pension, labor and materials costs.
"We are going to make General Motors what it was in the '50s and '60s again," Lutz said.
Lutz acknowledged GM lost a technological edge to Toyota by failing to recognize the potential of gasoline-hybrid technology, and promised that won't happen again with hydrogen cars. He did not specify how much cash would be channeled toward production of the new cars or how many vehicles would be produced. But a company said GM has so far spent $1 billion on the technology and will spend a similar amount by 2010.
Virtually every automaker is conducting tests of hydrogen-powered vehicles, which have received support from a five-year, $1.2 billion hydrogen initiative first announced by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union address.
German automaker BMW AG said Tuesday it will introduce the world's first hydrogen-powered luxury performance car.
The pollution-free technology holds the potential of zero emissions - except steam - and a sustainable source of energy produced when hydrogen and oxygen are mixed. Carbon emissions are reduced to zero, provided the energy used to produce hydrogen comes from renewable sources.
Lt. Col. Jay Malik said the Marine Corps is looking at alternative fuels for environmental reasons, and because hydrogen-powered cars could simplify logistical planning on the battlefield, where the distribution of gasoline can be challenging.
Many obstacles exist before fuel-cell cars hit showrooms, mainly a lack of hydrogen fueling stations. California leads the nation in installing hydrogen fueling stations, Lutz said, currently with 31 around the state.
But even if energy companies fail to boost hydrogen production, Lutz said GM would still have a potentially large international market share.
"Whether or not we get a hydrogen infrastructure, it doesn't matter, because China will be the first hydrogen economy," he said.
-
If you are suggesting that the government get involved with hydrogen research in any big way then we do not agree.
I simply don't think it is viable until we have an energy source that is free or... very cheap. I am not saying that it won't work in the future.. hope it does. I am saying that we are a ways off and that for short trips.. electric cars that get free recharges may make more sense.
I want the free market to fill the vacuum that 100 buck a barrel oil will cause.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. try to keep up. I was replying to her.
I can at least keep up with the fact that this is a public forum, though I'm sure that's difficult for some to comprehend. :D
-
Originally posted by lazs2
If you are suggesting that the government get involved with hydrogen research in any big way then we do not agree.
I simply don't think it is viable until we have an energy source that is free or... very cheap. I am not saying that it won't work in the future.. hope it does. I am saying that we are a ways off and that for short trips.. electric cars that get free recharges may make more sense.
I want the free market to fill the vacuum that 100 buck a barrel oil will cause.
lazs
The government is already involved... a republican congress and presidential administration saw to that.
Free or cheap fuel is equiv to free or cheap medical care.
I agree it would be nice for both to be free or cheap. Doubt we will ever see it though. Too much money to be made in both.
The national interests for hydrogen is real... as is independence from foreign oil. The two are thus linked.
I notice gasoline is going up by leaps and bounds again... sigh
If I could buy a hydrogen generator for the house and a hydrogen powered car, I would do it today and drive right by the gas stations.
Did you know the space shuttle main engines are fueled by liquid hydrogen and oxygen? Plus, hydrogen cell power generators are used on board the shuttle?
Hydrogen has 3 to 4 times more energy per unit of weight than gasoline and 3 to 4 times less energy per unit of volume than gasoline.
I read all that in the links I provided.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Thank you for the map, Jackal dear.
TIGERESS
Oh it`s no problem......sweetie. :)
I just noticed you had your directions a little screwed up and had overlooked where we were located military wise.
I am here to help.
-
I`m not sure what the current regulations are regarding limits, but I am pretty sure a game warden could get a promotion if he ran upon this. :)
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
If I could buy a hydrogen generator for the house and a hydrogen powered car, I would do it today and drive right by the gas stations.
Did you know the space shuttle main engines are fueled by liquid hydrogen and oxygen? Plus, hydrogen cell power generators are used on board the shuttle?
Hydrogen has 3 to 4 times more energy per unit of weight than gasoline and 3 to 4 times less energy per unit of volume than gasoline.
TIGERESS
Too bad hydrogen is not an energy source. It is a storage method.
If you had a hydrogen generator at your house and powered it off the grid, you would be powering your car with 50+% coal, about 10% nuclear, 5 or 10% Hydroelectric, 1 or 2 % wind and solar and other renewables, and the balance from Natural Gas and Oil.
If you convert energy from gas to electricity as we do at our plant, about 50% is a pretty good conversion percentage. Then you convert electricity to hydrogen at your house, and maybe another 50% loss in that conversion process. Then when you convert hydrogen to electricity again, the fuel cell gets 50 to 70% efficiency, an the other losses make your vehicle maybe 30 to 50% efficient.
So, 0.50 x 0.50 x 0.40 = 0.10 or 10% energy efficient, and still pumping out the carbon into the environment, just at the electric utility instead of your exhaust pipe.
And that 50% is at a gas fired steam regenerated power plant. Coal plants are more about 30-35% heat efficient.
Your present car, is probably about 20 to 25% heat efficient. The best diesels are about 50% efficient.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Foriegn policy for any country never deals with the "average people". Foriegn policy deals with governments, not "average people". :rolleyes:
Its not about dealing with, rather disrupting the average persons day.
Remember the UNICEF report, half a million children under 5 died in Iraq thanks to US sponsored sanctions?.. and caused "..massive impoverishment.."
Then Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said on 60 min "... the price is worth it."?
Ya think those half a million folks, average ones, had their day disrupted when their kids rotted to death? and their quality of life took a giant crap? story (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/072100-03.htm)
I mean whatever, they're 'only' 3rd world savage extremest who hate freedom, right? thry look like terrorists, are rude at 7-11, smell, and cant speak English... they should be begging us all knowing modern people to stay and show them how to make a flush toilet, use fire, and wear shoes. Screw those Geico cavemen looking freaks, the more filthy rock chucking Iraqi kids that rot to death, the fewer insurgents there will be to summarily slaughter on the road to victory!!!!
-
these faux news paper patriots crack me up tho...
the "we're are fighting them over there so they won't follow us home" is a wolfowitz sound bite ... the man hasn't been right on one thing regarding iraq and can't even hold a position of trust due to ethical reasons.
and the "they hate us for our freedom" is another bunch or crap... freak'n sheeples to the shears herd mentality.
michael scheuer keeps repeating that ron paul is the worst thing that could happen to bin laden... why because bin laden has said all along it's the foreign policies and nothing else. they attacked you because you meddled too much in their domestic affairs... at least ron paul is one of the last few honest americans to acknowledge that fact.
i guess you guys just don't get it... after uncle sam went around the globe molesting and subverting democracies and embezzling their resources at the behest of corporations... did you not think once the skill was honed it wouldn't be used domestically.... daft as can be.
the neo-conners have turned iraq into a cash boondoggle.... building 14 new bases in iraq and a billion dollar embassy that is larger than the vatican... such tards.
bleeding the empire dry... well you got the corporatocracy you so richly deserve.
-
I will be happy when people learn how to spell Fox.
Faux is getting as old as Limbaugh not calling newpapers by their real names.
But I can see how people call Fox more biased than other sources.
The CNN political page presently has the following bullet points to choose from:
-Poll: Clinton's support slips
-Biden wouldn't be Clinton VP
-Obama missing Senate votes
-Clinton's rivals smell blood
-Clinton denies delaying documents
-Unions back Clinton, Edwards
-Rivals take aim at Clinton
-Clinton rivals seek opening
No bias there: no Ron Paul, Thompson, Giuliani campaign news I guess.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I will be happy when people learn how to spell Fox.
Faux is getting as old as Limbaugh not calling newpapers by their real names.
But I can see how people call Fox more biased than other sources.
The CNN political page presently has the following bullet points to choose from:
-Poll: Clinton's support slips
-Biden wouldn't be Clinton VP
-Obama missing Senate votes
-Clinton's rivals smell blood
-Clinton denies delaying documents
-Unions back Clinton, Edwards
-Rivals take aim at Clinton
-Clinton rivals seek opening
-VOSS to be appointed head of CIA
No bias there: no Ron Paul, Thompson, Giuliani campaign news I guess.
Fixed.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Too bad hydrogen is not an energy source. It is a storage method.
If you had a hydrogen generator at your house and powered it off the grid, you would be powering your car with 50+% coal, about 10% nuclear, 5 or 10% Hydroelectric, 1 or 2 % wind and solar and other renewables, and the balance from Natural Gas and Oil.
If you convert energy from gas to electricity as we do at our plant, about 50% is a pretty good conversion percentage. Then you convert electricity to hydrogen at your house, and maybe another 50% loss in that conversion process. Then when you convert hydrogen to electricity again, the fuel cell gets 50 to 70% efficiency, an the other losses make your vehicle maybe 30 to 50% efficient.
So, 0.50 x 0.50 x 0.40 = 0.10 or 10% energy efficient, and still pumping out the carbon into the environment, just at the electric utility instead of your exhaust pipe.
And that 50% is at a gas fired steam regenerated power plant. Coal plants are more about 30-35% heat efficient.
Your present car, is probably about 20 to 25% heat efficient. The best diesels are about 50% efficient.
Hi Holden,
Great post!!!
Hydrogen power is easily stored and portable.
Electricity is not that easy to store in large quanties or we would already be driving electric vechicles.
Yes... hydrogen is an energy carrier, as is electricity, when used to run a hydrogen fuel cell that produces electricity.
Even electricity is not an energy source... it simply is a energy carrier (transfer mechanism) from a mechanical to electrical power converter; an energy carrier from a source... such as fossil fuel or gravity from dams.
Correct me if I am wrong, but... Hydrogen, when directly burned, is a source of energy.
Thus, Hydrogen can be used both ways... as an energy source or as an energy carrier.
Use of fossil fueled power plants such as coal to break down H2O into its constituent atoms can be made to burn quite cleanly if done right... a single point of pollution control vise millions of points of control in the form of automobiles burning fossil fuels.
Hydrogen burns well... ask anyone smoking around a charging battery that set off a hydrogen mini-explosion or anyone who has watched a space shuttle launch. Course the shuttle has solid propellent boosters... I am talking the main engines.
We have a lot of coal in this country.
In the future it may be possible to simply pipe water into a power plant from which pure hydrogen and pure oxygen is extracted and, in combination, is burned to drive steam turbines to drive electric generators and have electricity come out the other side.
The energy of hydrogen is high.
TIGERESS
-
torque... ok..you hate bush and anyone who isn't a liberal. you don't get a vote here tho.. too bad...sooo sad.
tigress.. I don't want the government involved in energy or in medical. If ron paul was honest.. he would say he doesn't either.
We can have cheap power and will. solar will happen.. it has no choice. the free market will provide. as I said.. it is getting cheaper and cheaper to have free electricity.. you could plug an electric car into your home for free and do about 90% of your errands with it. You can do that right now. It just costs a little more than it is worth... not near as bad as hydrogen tho.
as for medical.. we can have very cheap medical.. we just need to roll it back to 1950 we don't allow any medicine or procedure that didn't exist in 1950.
living long and healthy costs money.. how long and healthy you want to live?
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
torque... ok..you hate bush and anyone who isn't a liberal. you don't get a vote here tho.. too bad...sooo sad.
tigress.. I don't want the government involved in energy or in medical. If ron paul was honest.. he would say he doesn't either.
We can have cheap power and will. solar will happen.. it has no choice. the free market will provide. as I said.. it is getting cheaper and cheaper to have free electricity.. you could plug an electric car into your home for free and do about 90% of your errands with it. You can do that right now. It just costs a little more than it is worth... not near as bad as hydrogen tho.
as for medical.. we can have very cheap medical.. we just need to roll it back to 1950 we don't allow any medicine or procedure that didn't exist in 1950.
living long and healthy costs money.. how long and healthy you want to live?
lazs
Hi Lazs,
I tend to agree with your line of thinking.
I believe if we went back to 1950 level of medical care the cost would still be the same as it is for 2007 level of medical care, more or less.
This issue is corporate profits at the expense of the consumer who is on the ropes when sick.
I don't want to live forever nor extend my life at the cost of a million a year with 90% of that million per year going to corporate profits. That’s like being held up at the point of a gun, IMV.
I am not afraid to die. Dying is a part of life. Where was I before I was born? …living within the chromosomes of my ancestors with no self-awareness... same as dead far as I am concerned.
TIGERESS
-
uh... ok..
I didn't understand any of that as having anything to do with what we were discussing.
You can have cheap medical if you aren't afraid to die.. I guess yu agree with me?
You can have free personal transportation right now if you plug a car into your personal grid.. it will cost you the price of an electric car and the cost of the solar panels that are available right now from a dozen companies.
http://www.mrsolar.com/
not sometime if the government lets us... right now. cheaper every year.. every year... and as oil gets more expensive.. more companies will get into the field and it will get cheaper. right now you can be energy independent in your home for say.... $30K maybe less if you shop around. way less if you have it done as part of a new home.
Soon it will cost three grand and you can install it yourself with friends in a weekend...
lazs
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Oh it`s no problem......sweetie. :)
I just noticed you had your directions a little screwed up and had overlooked where we were located military wise.
I am here to help.
Tanks!
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
Its not about dealing with, rather disrupting the average persons day.
Remember the UNICEF report, half a million children under 5 died in Iraq thanks to US sponsored sanctions?.. and caused "..massive impoverishment.."
Then Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said on 60 min "... the price is worth it."?
Ya think those half a million folks, average ones, had their day disrupted when their kids rotted to death? and their quality of life took a giant crap? story (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/072100-03.htm)
I mean whatever, they're 'only' 3rd world savage extremest who hate freedom, right? thry look like terrorists, are rude at 7-11, smell, and cant speak English... they should be begging us all knowing modern people to stay and show them how to make a flush toilet, use fire, and wear shoes. Screw those Geico cavemen looking freaks, the more filthy rock chucking Iraqi kids that rot to death, the fewer insurgents there will be to summarily slaughter on the road to victory!!!!
ohhhhh... god.
When human beings are de-humanized it makes it so easy for many to carry out killing and slaughter.
Most people can not connect unless they are literally slapped in the face with it as have ground soldiers who have their humanity intact. I am thankful I have not had to deal with it directly but the pain of it still reaches me vividly.
War is a very ugly business.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by lazs2
uh... ok..
I didn't understand any of that as having anything to do with what we were discussing.
You can have cheap medical if you aren't afraid to die.. I guess yu agree with me?
You can have free personal transportation right now if you plug a car into your personal grid.. it will cost you the price of an electric car and the cost of the solar panels that are available right now from a dozen companies.
http://www.mrsolar.com/
not sometime if the government lets us... right now. cheaper every year.. every year... and as oil gets more expensive.. more companies will get into the field and it will get cheaper. right now you can be energy independent in your home for say.... $30K maybe less if you shop around. way less if you have it done as part of a new home.
Soon it will cost three grand and you can install it yourself with friends in a weekend...
lazs
Yes we are in agreement... on the same page.
On a single case basis a personally owned/operated wind powered or solar powered generator would work battery charging for an automobile for short hauls.
A former colleague, years ago, had a personal wind powered generator and converted his house to DC. He didn't have an electric car though. He finally gave up on it due to the maintenance and expense. Solar was not workable due to weather in the area.
Problem is, personally owned/operated wind or solar generators won’t work for hundreds of millions of people on a macro-scale.
Wish it would.
TIGERESS
-
actually.. you need to look at some of the sites.. there really is nowhere in the states where solar would not eliminate or halve your dependency on the power company at this point.. as they get better.. it will take less and less sun to do more and more...
sorta like the first solar powered calculators and such... they had to actually be in he sun...for some time.. now.. unless the room is pitch black they get enough energy from the light.
as for "short" trips? how short is short? There is no problem getting a hundred or more miles out of a charge for electric cars.. that is say.. 3,000 miles a month. lots of running around. I would say that range will increase to maybe... 300 real miles per charge.. pretty much take care of 90% of our getting around.
I am an optimist I suppose but I see things only getting better..
lazs
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Too bad hydrogen is not an energy source. It is a storage method.
If you had a hydrogen generator at your house and powered it off the grid, you would be powering your car with 50+% coal, about 10% nuclear, 5 or 10% Hydroelectric, 1 or 2 % wind and solar and other renewables, and the balance from Natural Gas and Oil.
If you convert energy from gas to electricity as we do at our plant, about 50% is a pretty good conversion percentage. Then you convert electricity to hydrogen at your house, and maybe another 50% loss in that conversion process. Then when you convert hydrogen to electricity again, the fuel cell gets 50 to 70% efficiency, an the other losses make your vehicle maybe 30 to 50% efficient.
So, 0.50 x 0.50 x 0.40 = 0.10 or 10% energy efficient, and still pumping out the carbon into the environment, just at the electric utility instead of your exhaust pipe.
And that 50% is at a gas fired steam regenerated power plant. Coal plants are more about 30-35% heat efficient.
Your present car, is probably about 20 to 25% heat efficient. The best diesels are about 50% efficient.
Holden, are you sure Tigress' wasn't referring to something like this?http://www.hydrogennow.org/HNews/PressReleases/Ford/FordLaunchesProductionICEs-Jul17-2006.htm
Or this?http://public.ca.sandia.gov/crf/research/combustionEngines/PFI.php
Since it would not take a great deal of retooling, This might be much more practical than battery-powered electric cars in the near term. To tell you the truth, this is probably closer than than electric, and it's necessary infrastructure of recharging stations, will be. Given the speeds' and ranges of known battery-powered electric cars, This will be a lot easier to sell to the American public.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Holden, are you sure Tigress' wasn't referring to something like this?
It doesn't matter how you burn or convert the hydrogen into rolling energy, you still have to manufacture the hydrogen. It is not available just lying around in usable quantities like gas, oil, or coal is. You can't drill for it, dig it up, or harvest it, you must manufacture it.
For every calorie stored and usable in hydrogen we will need to put in two or three from some other energy source. Right now, the available, reliable source that could do it on an industrial scale without killing fish, birds, or adding to the carbon cycle is something called nuclear.
We could have solar panels on our house gather energy to hydrolyse water, but 1 kilowatts of solar panel sets you back $6 or 8 thousand, and 12 kwhrs of electricity could get us (at a 50% efficiency) 6 kwhrs of hydrogen in the fuel tank. Another 50% loss in burning, gets us 3 kw hrs of rolling energy.
Your 250 hp Lexus could run for 57 seconds at full hp on that amount of energy. Lift your foot a bit and you might get 2 kilometers down the road.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
actually.. you need to look at some of the sites.. there really is nowhere in the states where solar would not eliminate or halve your dependency on the power company at this point.. as they get better.. it will take less and less sun to do more and more...
sorta like the first solar powered calculators and such... they had to actually be in he sun...for some time.. now.. unless the room is pitch black they get enough energy from the light.
as for "short" trips? how short is short? There is no problem getting a hundred or more miles out of a charge for electric cars.. that is say.. 3,000 miles a month. lots of running around. I would say that range will increase to maybe... 300 real miles per charge.. pretty much take care of 90% of our getting around.
I am an optimist I suppose but I see things only getting better..
lazs
mmmm... looks like I have some googling to do, thanks :)
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It doesn't matter how you burn or convert the hydrogen into rolling energy, you still have to manufacture the hydrogen. It is not available just lying around in usable quantities like gas, oil, or coal is. You can't drill for it, dig it up, or harvest it, you must manufacture it.
For every calorie stored and usable in hydrogen we will need to put in two or three from some other energy source. Right now, the available, reliable source that could do it on an industrial scale without killing fish, birds, or adding to the carbon cycle is something called nuclear.
We could have solar panels on our house gather energy to hydrolyse water, but 1 kilowatts of solar panel sets you back $6 or 8 thousand, and 12 kwhrs of electricity could get us (at a 50% efficiency) 6 kwhrs of hydrogen in the fuel tank. Another 50% loss in burning, gets us 3 kw hrs of rolling energy.
Your 250 hp Lexus could run for 57 seconds at full hp on that amount of energy. Lift your foot a bit and you might get 2 kilometers down the road.
Hi Holden,
I understand what you are saying and don't disagree.
It is not cost free to extract hydrogen from compounds... reducing the cost is part of the research going on. There are microbes which produce hydrogen, for instance.
Yes, uncompounded hydrogen does not exist on the surface of the earth due to its light weight... it just floats away into the upper atmosphere... but it exists in compound with other atoms. I view hydrolizing H2O as analgous to refinement of gasoline from oil.
In your estimate, what is the cost assessment of refining a gallon of gasoline from oil vs hydrolizing the same number of joules of energy in the form of hydrogen from H2O? (The energy in one gallon of gasoline is roughly equivalent to 1 kg of Hydrogen)
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
In your estimate, what is the cost assessment of refining a gallon of gasoline from oil vs hydrolizing the same number of joules of energy in the form of hydrogen from H2O? (The energy in one gallon of gasoline is roughly equivalent to 1 kg of Hydrogen)
TIGERESS
Water is the result of the oxydation of Hydrogen. It is the ashes of burning that has already taken place.
For every calorie you get from the hydrogen split from water you must put in more than one calorie into the procuction process. If you could go below unity, a perpetual motion machine would result. The second law of thermodynamics is quite strict on no perpetual motion.
On the other hand I can start a fire with crude oil. It has an abundance of energy as it flows from the ground. Refining only makes the fire more pure. Kind of like knocking the mud off the wood I am about to throw into the campfire. You may be able to get 10 calories out of refined oil for every calorie consumed in the refining process. (it would not surprize me if the ratio is much higher)
I am not saying hydrogen is a bad technology choice, it is just that the true solution is not in the hydrogen in a cars tank, it is in how the hydrogen is manufactured.
The main source of hydrogen these days is oil and gas production, not hydrolyzing water. With our current production methods we solve nothing with hydrogen.
-
If I understand it correctly, perpetual motion does not require a gain above unity, only that entropy is absent.
-
the 2nd law forbids this also.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Water is the result of the oxydation of Hydrogen. It is the ashes of burning that has already taken place.
For every calorie you get from the hydrogen split from water you must put in more than one calorie into the procuction process. If you could go below unity, a perpetual motion machine would result. The second law of thermodynamics is quite strict on no perpetual motion.
On the other hand I can start a fire with crude oil. It has an abundance of energy as it flows from the ground. Refining only makes the fire more pure. Kind of like knocking the mud off the wood I am about to throw into the campfire. You may be able to get 10 calories out of refined oil for every calorie consumed in the refining process. (it would not surprize me if the ratio is much higher)
I am not saying hydrogen is a bad technology choice, it is just that the true solution is not in the hydrogen in a cars tank, it is in how the hydrogen is manufactured.
The main source of hydrogen these days is oil and gas production, not hydrolyzing water. With our current production methods we solve nothing with hydrogen.
interesting stuff you seem to know what youre talking about, as usual, but i put it to the posters here that humanity's lifestyle is what needs changing, not where we derive the fuels from for said current lifestyle.
-
Some lifestyles definitely need changing imo but I'm not going to try to tell anyone how to live, much less how much fuel they can consume.
-
Rationing and lifestyle change was part of the homefront during WWII. People adjust to handle a crisis. And anyone selfish or criminal enough to fight society when such measures are deemed necessary don't seem to have a firm basis to avoid prosecution when caught. So the moral excuse of not imposing on people just because you don't like to impose isn't a strong argument - even historically within American ideology.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Some lifestyles definitely need changing imo but I'm not going to try to tell anyone how to live, much less how much fuel they can consume.
I think the gist of the whole point that Tigress' was trying to make, was that Hydrogen Fuel Cells, or Hydrogen ICE's (Internal Combustion Engines) might be the way to quit using foreign oil, Mainly of Middle Eastern production, and to thus be rid of any political concerns with the Arabs.
-
Using the Fisher Tropsche method of making liquid fuel from coal can do that. South Africa and China are doing it on a production basis now, and there is a plant up and running in Wyoming now.
The USA has like 1/4 the worlds coal supply, the equivalent of several Saudi Arabias worth of energy in Coal... another few S-As in oil shale. We just have to be willing to pay the price and do it.
Under present technology hydrogen fuel for cars will actuallt make us less energy efficient. Large supplies of energy are required to pull it off.
Unless you have abundant geothermal and a relatively small population with no place to go like Iceland, a hydrogen economy is presently a pipe dream.
Iceland may pull it off though.
-
When i mentioned lifestyle i wasnt so much suggesting rationing the one we have already more finding a new way to exist completely. It's the one thing that is not 'down to the individual' to change in today's world. Revolutions against todays governments would never be won with armed fighting, although there cannot be many military people in any country that would take arms against there own families...anyhow im losing the point. the point is that we cannot change the current global first world lifestyle it must be 'allowed' by those in power and short of a full global revolution that could not work this is never going to happen.
The other major problem in this is that us humans like it this way and have done nothing but work towards this for generations so people who keep complaining about it publicly or privately should really keep it zipped untill they themselves are living in a log cabin in the forrest eating rabbits.
Lets hurry the hell up and burn the rest of this multi-million year old fuel now enjoying every ozone tearing second of it, and when it's done a new and more fragrant world might emerge.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
...anyhow im losing the point.
I'm sorry, that's about all I got out of that. For now. :D
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
the point is that we cannot change the current global first world lifestyle it must be 'allowed' by those in power and short of a full global revolution that could not work this is never going to happen.
So you disagree with the 'think globally act locally' credo.
I'm not for full global revolution, so I think I'll go out and get a Hummer H1.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
Lets hurry the hell up and burn the rest of this multi-million year old fuel now enjoying every ozone tearing second of it, and when it's done a new and more fragrant world might emerge.
Arlo this was the bit i should have highlighted for you :)
yeah holden, on certain subjects i think the power to act remains with the few not the many. recycling can be done by everyone and thier grandma, changing the basis of hundreds of years worth of lifestyle sculpting and the control of the prols is down to the people who govern our nations. For instance a move to outlaw all fossil burning vehicals cannot be made law by jonny no-name.
so, no use moaning about using all the oil, get on with it, then we will be forced into the changes that no one alive today is prepared to make.
if you do use a 'cleaner' form of energy then thanks and more power to you, but really it's like vulching.
you can feel good about hanging back while the others rape the field but within 10 mins the enemy is pissed off and stops coming. Everyone else has got some kills except you and now you are all in the same boat again.
and besides all that, what on earth is the good of prolonging the depletion of this fuel? Even if half the world did the good deed of switching fuels the prices of oil would just get higher and last longer.
would we not eventualy get to a stage when such a small ammount of this fuel exists that it became worthy of being a museum exhibit rather than a source of power?
use it up. work new stuff out. evolve. as quickly as possible.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
so, no use moaning about using all the oil, get on with it, then we will be forced into the changes that no one alive today is prepared to make.
Times they are a changing.
The fastest growing sector of electrical power generation is wind.
As of this last June, the USA has 12,500 MW of installed wind power and the industry is on track to install 4,000 MW just this year (2007). We will probably continue with 4,000 or 5,000 a year in the forseeable future.
Palo Verde Nuclear Power Station in AZ is the USA's largest with about 1,200 MW capacity, so we are building the equivalent of a couple huge nukes a year.
The wind resource of the great plains could power the USA electrical grid if it were fully developed, although losses of pushing the power down the lines doesn't allow for New York to suck wind power from Nebraska, but all the people from the rockies to the appalachins could be substantially powering off the wind.
As the cost of oil grows, wind and other non traditional power sources become more profitable and therefore more available. Perhaps we could build H2 from the wind when the grid isn't sucking it up.
-
would you say this developement is due to an effort to conserve the remaining oil or to prepare for when the oil is gone? or both? or is it purely finacial? a business move in advance of its true need? or all three?
I just cannot see a need to conserve something that is certainly going to run out one day, perhaps i havnt thought it through well enough.
one reason might be that the saving made by switching all cars to another fuel would enable the fuel to be used in other modes of transport land and air for an increased time frame, yet still, eventualy it will run out and a new method must be found so why prolong the use of something soon to be obsolete.
electric airliners anyone?
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
would you say this developement is due to an effort to conserve the remaining oil or to prepare for when the oil is gone? or both? or is it purely finacial? a business move in advance of its true need? or all three?
I just cannot see a need to conserve something that is certainly going to run out one day, perhaps i havnt thought it through well enough.
As the fossil resource gets less abundant, the price rises. When it gets too expensive other sources move in to fill the demand. When the demand for oil lessens, and it will when the price rises enough, profit can be made in renewables, FT liquid fuel, nuclear, etc. the energy market will balance on a new recipe.
You don't need governmental mandates to achieve this, although tax incentives in the wind industry did push the balance point up a few years. The best thing government can do to spur the alternates is to allow the alternates a free hand (or at least less regulated) in siting, building, permitting, licensing, tax breaks, etc.
ie get out of the way.
-
so from what you're saying obviously the strongest reason for researching renewable fuels at present (with fossil still available) is financial.
we should maybe expect that when all the oil is gone wars will be fought over the best wind or most sunlit areas.
this all assuming that our current lifestyle remains the same over the next few hundred years.
-
All decisions are financial when you come down to it. How much is Fido worth? Am I going to spend 350K for an artificial heart for my rotweiler?
Of course its financial: Finance is just how you keep score in the game of life.
-
then our ever increasing self imposed devolution is set to continue long past the finite supplies of oil. If finance was to be my life's score card i would happily die right now.
At the end of the day the oppertunity of developing a new world through the end of fossil fuels will be wasted and the business machine will continue to devour freedom and nature's pleasures.
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Rationing and lifestyle change was part of the homefront during WWII. People adjust to handle a crisis. And anyone selfish or criminal enough to fight society when such measures are deemed necessary don't seem to have a firm basis to avoid prosecution when caught. So the moral excuse of not imposing on people just because you don't like to impose isn't a strong argument - even historically within American ideology.
Hi Arlo & Bat,
Conservation of energy has always been a good idea.
To that end... I moved to within 3 miles of my workplace having commuted for years with a roundtrip of 64 miles daily. My cars, over the years, averaged 30 mpg.
Doing the math approximation for commuting gasoline consumption, I burn about 1 gallon per week, 50 gallons per year, as opposed to previously burning 500 gallons per year. That equates to one order of magnitude reduction in gasoline thus crude oil consumption.
That is to say, reducing my annual commuting crude oil consumption from 1000 gallons to 100 gallons. There are 42 gallons of crude oil in a barrel and it takes about 2 gallons of crude to produce one gallon of gasoline.
Other savings are serious milage reduction thus reduced wear and tear on the car thus increasing its trade-in value, lower insurance rates, reduced risk of an accident, and savings of time otherwise spent in the car commuting.
I choose to work longer hours overall because I love my job and still get home about the same time.
That is a three year old lifestyle change I really feel good about it and so far I have consumed about 64 fewer barrels of crude oil.
TIGERESS
-
Going back the first post of the thread it seems Bush and, more importantly, his advisors are starting to "get it"... finally, after so many years.
Quote from first post: "In my opinion, Geo. W. Bush & Co has been playing right into Islamic Extremists' hands and has been trying to force our international friends to go along with him thus forcing our Allies to play into their hands as well.
Our Allies, appear to me, to be backing off from us because it isn't working."
See: Bush and Sarkozy declare Iran aim --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7083339.stm
Good for you, Bush. It's about dang time you started mended fences and started dropping the "my way or the highway" approach, IMV.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
If finance was to be my life's score card i would happily die right now.
Score (relative to others) has nothing to do with happiness.
I can be happy breaking 90 for 18 holes, but a score of 88 would not make Phil Michelson a happy camper.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
I think the gist of the whole point that Tigress' was trying to make, was that Hydrogen Fuel Cells, or Hydrogen ICE's (Internal Combustion Engines) might be the way to quit using foreign oil, Mainly of Middle Eastern production, and to thus be rid of any political concerns with the Arabs.
That is exactly what I am saying. I am not saying Hydrogen refined from H2O using renewable power sources to perform the hydrolizing process is presently cheaper than or as cheap as gasoline... I do believe its costs will come down as demand goes up... it’s the capitalism way... reduce costs; increase profits.
I am suggesting serious acceleration of bringing Hydrogen hydrolyzed from H2O into the market to eliminate oil imports all together. Screw the Middle East and their oil forever. grrr
We put the Communism of the USSR out of business with a war of economics... we can do the same with the Islamic Regimes of Threat to Humanity out of business as well.
In other words, bring down the Hydra by totally ceasing world consumption of their oil.
TIGERESS
-
arlo... again, as usual you show a lack of understanding and history.
WWII rationing was for a cause that was real. It was also a short term thing with an end defined (the winning or losing of the war). A dirty little secret was that some of it was bs anyway and not needed but gave people a sense of unity.
At the end of the war... well.... let the good times roll.. better than before in fact.
In the case of global warming.. there is no proof we are having any significant effect or... that even if we were... that we could do anything about it...that any rationing would help or that there would be any end to it. And....
There is no need... the free market will develop ways to power our lifestyle that don't depend on the oil we see now. As nukes are built.. power will be cheaper...as solar develops.. it will become cheaper yet...
In the mean time.. we need to drill for oil in alaska and off shore.
rationing and lowering lifestyles bring their own problems.. worldwide socialism just means everyone is broke with no hope out.
It is a bleak prospect and most people say "hell no".. the socialists know this so have come up with a planet buster... "our very survival" that kind of bs. Look at the hysteria and lies that have been spread about our current warming trend and the cooling trend that happened 30 years ago.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo... again, as usual you show a lack of understanding and history.
WWII rationing was for a cause that was real. It was also a short term thing with an end defined (the winning or losing of the war). A dirty little secret was that some of it was bs anyway and not needed but gave people a sense of unity.
At the end of the war... well.... let the good times roll.. better than before in fact.
In the case of global warming.. there is no proof we are having any significant effect or... that even if we were... that we could do anything about it...that any rationing would help or that there would be any end to it. And....
There is no need... the free market will develop ways to power our lifestyle that don't depend on the oil we see now. As nukes are built.. power will be cheaper...as solar develops.. it will become cheaper yet...
In the mean time.. we need to drill for oil in alaska and off shore.
rationing and lowering lifestyles bring their own problems.. worldwide socialism just means everyone is broke with no hope out.
It is a bleak prospect and most people say "hell no".. the socialists know this so have come up with a planet buster... "our very survival" that kind of bs. Look at the hysteria and lies that have been spread about our current warming trend and the cooling trend that happened 30 years ago.
lazs
Let me add to that...
If we reduce our consumption of Middle East (Hydra) oil by 50% then expect a 50% increase in the price of Hydra oil as a result.... thus an attendant 50% increase in the supply lifetime of the Hydra’s oil reserves.
The Hydra would still be funded by its oil sales an attendant 50% longer extension of their funding lifetime.
Total cessation of their oil market will stop the flow of oil dollars into the pockets of the Hydra.
American lawmakers apparently want to protect American oil business from loss of profits thus they are currently harping... conserve, conserve, conserve... looks good on the surface... not the solution to the threat of the Hydra when you dig deeper.
The squaring off of American automakers with the American Oil companies is interesting. I would not suprise me to see the US automakers create a Hydrogen infrastructure and tell the Oil companies to go screw.
TIGERESS
-
I am suggesting serious acceleration of bringing Hydrogen hydrolyzed from H2O into the market to eliminate oil imports all together.
About 40% of US energy comes from oil. To replace it, especially considering the inefficiency of converting to hydrogen, would require twice as much coal, gas and nuclear power as now.
And that would still leave you powering cars with hydrogen that costs much more than gasoline, even without factoring in the cost of converting the current oil infrastructure.
There is no need... the free market will develop ways to power our lifestyle that don't depend on the oil we see now.
The free market cannot build an alternative energy infrastructure whilst oil is so cheap. The problem is, it will take many years to convert from oil, and the free market cannot begin to do so until oil becomes scarce.
If we are unlucky, oil could become scarce quickly, for example a major war in the Middle East. In that case, it will take years for the free market to build alternatives, and those years will be painful.
Of course, we could get lucky. The decline in oil might be gradual, although the lack of transparency in actual oil reserves, and the demands of China, make that unlikely. Technology might almost solve the problem overnight, for example by producing a worthwhile battery.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
About 40% of US energy comes from oil. To replace it, especially considering the inefficiency of converting to hydrogen, would require twice as much coal, gas and nuclear power as now.
And that would still leave you powering cars with hydrogen that costs much more than gasoline, even without factoring in the cost of converting the current oil infrastructure.
The free market cannot build an alternative energy infrastructure whilst oil is so cheap. The problem is, it will take many years to convert from oil, and the free market cannot begin to do so until oil becomes scarce.
If we are unlucky, oil could become scarce quickly, for example a major war in the Middle East. In that case, it will take years for the free market to build alternatives, and those years will be painful.
Of course, we could get lucky. The decline in oil might be gradual, although the lack of transparency in actual oil reserves, and the demands of China, make that unlikely. Technology might almost solve the problem overnight, for example by producing a worthwhile battery.
"The free market cannot build an alternative energy infrastructure whilst oil is so cheap."
cannot? or will not?
I think we are brainwashed.
In my view, we are in a war of economics with the Hydra and they are WINNING... because of greed on our part.
I suggest reading up on the reasons for the last 5 increases in our national debt ceiling, the lastest one being elevated to almost $9 Trillion Dollars.
It was set at $5.6 trillion at the time Bush took office.
I am not a political partisan... I am Pro-America and believe in capitolism...
Is this a case of "Borrow and Spend" to avoid "Tax and Spend"?
Who will eventually pay the interest and the $9 Trillion in debt here?
How much is the interest payments on a $9 Trillion dollar loan and how long will the interest be paid?
Who is lending the money?
This is a war of economics with the Hydra.
So far, they are whipping us soundly, in my view.
TIGERESS
-
nashwan.. for once I do not totally disagree with you. Oil will get scarcer.. some conservation will come by mere price.. not so much useless plastic on $1 items you buy... people driving less or driving more fuel effcient cars.
some improvement short term will come from coal and shale and exploration and drilling.
long term... nuke plants.. off the grid solar and solar hybrid on the grid. plug in electric cars to your personal free electric source and we drop dependency by more than half.
We were told that when oil reached $75 a barrel it would make sense to convert oil shale and to go after hard to get and refine oil.. and convert coal.. that isn't happening but.. it could as price goes up further.
It all looks rosy to me.
so long as we keep the socialists out of it.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Score (relative to others) has nothing to do with happiness.
I can be happy breaking 90 for 18 holes, but a score of 88 would not make Phil Michelson a happy camper.
I can teach you how to break 90 but that would be an off-topic discussion :)
Yes, women play golf and shoot in the low to mid 80s.
That is something my EX and I enjoyed together.
I miss him dearly but his accompanying progressive alcoholism was more than I could bear. :cry
TIGERESS
-
cannot? or will not?
Cannot. How do you sell hydrogen cars to people when they cost more to buy and more to run, than gasoline powered cars? How do you build the infrastructure to produce and supply the hydrogen when no one will buy the cars that use it?
If you want to replace gasoline, you have to have at least some advantages. More expensive, less convenient isn't much of a selling point.
some conservation will come by mere price.. not so much useless plastic on $1 items you buy... people driving less or driving more fuel effcient cars.
20 years ago that might have been enough. Use would reduce gradually as price gradually increased.
But China changes that. Their growth in oil consumption is going to dwarf gradual reductions in western consumption. Same with India in a few years.
Oil isn't going to run out, but the price will have a major effect on western economies.
We were told that when oil reached $75 a barrel it would make sense to convert oil shale and to go after hard to get and refine oil.. and convert coal.. that isn't happening but.. it could as price goes up further.
Time is the problem. From deciding to invest, to actually completing the huge plants needed, takes many years. Canadian oil sands production is about 1 million barrels a day now, forecast to reach 2 million barrels by 2010, and 4 million by 2015.
World oil consumption grew by about 10 million barrels a day over the last 8 years, which puts the forecast growth into perspective.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
Cannot. How do you sell hydrogen cars to people when they cost more to buy and more to run, than gasoline powered cars? How do you build the infrastructure to produce and supply the hydrogen when no one will buy the cars that use it?
If you want to replace gasoline, you have to have at least some advantages. More expensive, less convenient isn't much of a selling point.
20 years ago that might have been enough. Use would reduce gradually as price gradually increased.
But China changes that. Their growth in oil consumption is going to dwarf gradual reductions in western consumption. Same with India in a few years.
Oil isn't going to run out, but the price will have a major effect on western economies.
Time is the problem. From deciding to invest, to actually completing the huge plants needed, takes many years. Canadian oil sands production is about 1 million barrels a day now, forecast to reach 2 million barrels by 2010, and 4 million by 2015.
World oil consumption grew by about 10 million barrels a day over the last 8 years, which puts the forecast growth into perspective.
Let me answer that in part with a question if you will allow me...
How did the automobile replace the horse and buggy?
TIGERESS
edit: From a previous post to this thread:
Originally posted by Tigeress
President Bush's Hydrogen Fuel Initiative:
A Clean and Secure Energy Future
"A simple chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen generates energy, which can be used to power a car producing only water, not exhaust fumes. With a new national commitment, our scientists and engineers will overcome obstacles to taking these cars from laboratory to showroom so that the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen, and pollution-free. Join me in this important innovation to make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of energy."
— President Bush, State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pres...initiative.html
I believe when enough immediate importance is placed on ACCELERATING this, we will be independent of foreign oil dependence for the security of the nation.
There has been too much money to be made in oil to have placed national security needs over the easy money of oil.
We went to the moon in 1969 because it was deemed a national priority to do so.
TIGERESS
-
Ohio Gozi Masu
Dang, just got a phone call from the company CEO asking me to jump on a plane and go to Japan for a short project there... never a dull moment.
I like to drive a plane... cattle car class to Japan and back is NOT high on my list of fun things to do.
My posting is going to be spotty till I get back. He wants me to leave tomorrow. Now I have to go get my hair done asap
TIGERESS
-
Have a safe & fun trip :)
-
Hi TxMom!
Hair appointment is 4pm east coast time... not my usual girl :cry but it's the girl who does my usual girl's hair. TG I didn't have to go to strangers!
Just had my nails (acrylics) done a few days ago so that's off my stress list :rofl
This trip is to Yokohama; first time there but have spent time working in Toyko and its near Toyko... shuttle bus from Narita airport. Travel comes with the job. I have money from all over the world I wind up bringing home. Guess I can check my local Yen supply. lol
These guys at work have no idea what a stresser it is for us on a last minute's notice trip. sigh... lucky them! :)
I'll take the little laptop with the worn off keys lol, not this big clunker of a laptop I use to fly with.
TIGERESS
-
nashwan... I just don't see things as grim as you do... I see the fact that as long as oil is cheaper than anything else... that is a good thing.. whatever is cheapest is a good thing.
At the same time... more and more alternatives are being refined (no pun intended) as with solar and wind and nuclear.
as these things make power an "all you can eat for a flat rate" kinda deal for electrical... more and more will have "free" electric cars for most driving...
Hybrids are not really worth it.. but they are selling in record numbers.. a plug in hybrid with a free, or nearly free, electrical source is not some huge leap... it is not something that takes decades to tool up for.
there are folks right now that are driving plug in hybrids for "free".. they have zero dollar a month electrical bills on 2,000+++ square foot luxury homes with solar panels and are plugging in their hybrids with readily available kits.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Let me answer that in part with a question if you will allow me...
How did the automobile replace the horse and buggy?
Until Mr Ford brought mass production methods to the automobile and brought the price down to what regular folks could afford, horses still ruled personal transportation.
Before the automobile made money sense, it was a rich mans toy.
Why doesn't everyone have a PV roof? Because it costs several thousand per KW to install and it doesn't pay for itself (without gov't subsidy) for a decade or more.
It doesn't make financial sence when electricity costs $0.10/KWhr
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Until Mr Ford brought mass production methods to the automobile and brought the price down to what regular folks could afford, horses still ruled personal transportation.
Before the automobile made money sense, it was a rich mans toy.
Why doesn't everyone have a PV roof? Because it costs several thousand per KW to install and it doesn't pay for itself (without gov't subsidy) for a decade or more.
It doesn't make financial sence when electricity costs $0.10/KWhr
Quite so, Holden; Spot on.
IMV, Detroit is once again forced to make serious changes... This Time, to regain what they had before oil prices started hurting their business.
The Automobile industry drove the Oil industry initially and is in process of doing so again; this time, to drive Oil/Gasoline out of the equation as much as possible.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
In my view, the invention of the production line and creation of a low cost automobile and a middle class who would buy it had to happen in order to capitalize on the staggering potential of profits the automobile represented.
Granted, in this case the priority to drive the creation of Hydrogen fueled vehicles and its attendant and requisite infrastructure is driven partially by capitalism itself but capitalism (Detroit) is driving it.
It is also driven presently by needs of national security and clean air and a renewable energy source to carry us well into the future in addition to the needs of the automobile industry to stop loosing profits due to oil price fluctuation and future predicted oil price increases.
Detroit is seriously PO'ed and wants to regain their profits.
Ford announced a $1 billion dollar loss yesterday and their stock is in the toilet.
The hand writing is on the wall...
In other words… macro-capitalism is presently holding us back to the extent that it is.
IMV, the Hydra, Russia and China are counting on this.
That is why I think many people are not yet envisioning this future; their business and personal paradigms are based on lowest cost/highest profit at the moment. Lazs is not alone by a huge margin and for understandable reasons.
I am optimistic and have reason to be. The only question is when will it be prioritized high enough to bring out the Henry Fords to do their thing in the near term; far term it is already well well underway.
If the Hydra shut off oil to the US today... right now, the Henry Fords would come to total life... the sleeping giant would come to full life and make this happen ASAP.
I absolutely believe we are witnessing the historic end of the Oil Age.
If Detroit has learned the lessons of IBM vs. Microsoft, Detroit will create and own the fuel infrastructure this time.
TIGERESS
-
holden.. even without the subsidies.. some of which are by the power companies themselves... the systems are starting to make sense...
These luxury homes have power bills that average about $500 a month... this will go up at least double in the next few years.. the payments on the systems are running about $300 a month.
Why would the power companies want to subsidize em? getting juice to the grid is like pushing an elephant through a straw in peak hours.. the hours these things are taking the stress off their systems.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
holden.. even without the subsidies.. some of which are by the power companies themselves... the systems are starting to make sense...
These luxury homes have power bills that average about $500 a month... this will go up at least double in the next few years.. the payments on the systems are running about $300 a month.
Why would the power companies want to subsidize em? getting juice to the grid is like pushing an elephant through a straw in peak hours.. the hours these things are taking the stress off their systems.
lazs
Lazs,
Can you provide some links?
In looking around, I saw:
" Solar Electricity
There are more than 10,000 homes in the United States that are now entirely powered by solar energy.
200,000 homes in the U.S. use some type of photovoltaic solar technology.
Building-integrated PV products such as solar roof shingles for homes and opaque glass PV facades are now available on the market. These aesthetically pleasing products replace conventional building materials while generating electricity, effectively reducing the cost of PV installation. This building integration market for these products is growing at 30% a year.
Designers have begun incorporating photovoltaics and passive solar into factory-built modular homes. For instance, a factory-built, solar home in Massachusetts was built for $35,000 less than it would have cost to build a conventional custom home and the homeowners pay a total of $100 for heating, cooling and electricity a year.
The cost of installing a typical off-grid PV system in a home ranges from $15,000 to $20,000 per kilowatt (lower when installed during initial house construction). Because the cost to extend electric power lines from the electric grid averages from $20,000 to $80,000 per mile, this cost savings alone can pay for the PV system, with the homeowner never again having to pay another electric bill."
from --> http://www.solardev.com/SEIA-sunshinehomes.php
I leave tomorrow...
TIGERESS
-
tigress.... you pretty much have it already...
the systems are like a $15,000 addition to a new home with the subsidies.. that is like a $300 or less a month payment. this is not only less than what their power bill would have been but.... power will go up in price... and
In a market where homes are not selling... homes with solar electrical are selling very well. I know two people who have the full house treatment and their bills are $0 for the year average.. they get a credit when producing excess and are charged when not producing enough.. they could easily charge an electric car for free.
I believe that free.. or "all you can eat for cheap" electricity is just around the corner and that it will change our lives more than personal computers or cell phones or even the model T did.
lazs
-
nashwan... I just don't see things as grim as you do... I see the fact that as long as oil is cheaper than anything else... that is a good thing.. whatever is cheapest is a good thing.
I don't see it as grim, I see it as risky.
At the same time... more and more alternatives are being refined (no pun intended) as with solar and wind and nuclear.
as these things make power an "all you can eat for a flat rate" kinda deal for electrical... more and more will have "free" electric cars for most driving...
They started talking about flat rate electricity pricing in the 50s, when fusion power was just around the corner. 50 years later and fusion power is now "25 years" away. It's been about 25 years away since the 80s, iirc.
Solar, nuclear and wind will not produce flat rate electricity pricing. All of them are fairly pricey ways of generating electricity, not because of fuel costs, but because of capital costs.
Hybrids are not really worth it.. but they are selling in record numbers.. a plug in hybrid with a free, or nearly free, electrical source is not some huge leap... it is not something that takes decades to tool up for.
The power infrastructure does.
Let's face it, current (geddit?) electric cars don't sell because they are rubbish. They are too small, built out of tracing paper, the air con or heater flattens the battery before you reach the bottom of your drive.
Petrol contains about 10 kw/h of energy per litre. An electric car is much more efficient, but you still need at least 3 kw/h to equal 1 litre of petrol. 12 kw/h to equal a US gallon.
How many gallons do you use a day? How many kilowatt hours of electricity?
The US gets 40% of its energy from oil. That's almost all used in transport. The other 60% is used in homes and industry. Replacing the oil with electric vehicles will require about twice as much electricity generation as now.
That will take many years.
How did the automobile replace the horse and buggy?
It offered huge advantages.
Hydrogen vehicles do not offer any advantages to the consumer over gasoline vehicles, and have several large disadvantages.
It is also driven presently by needs of national security and clean air and a renewable energy source to carry us well into the future
What renewable energy source?
Hydrogen can be used to produce energy, but only if you can find hydrogen. Because it's very reactive, you can't find substantial amounts unreacted.
What you find is water, which contains hydrogen. You can extract hydrogen from water, but it takes energy. In theory, if you can make the process 100% efficient, extracting hydrogen will require exactly the same amount of energy you get when you burn it.
In reality, neither the extraction or the burning is 100% efficient, which means you will always get out less energy than you put in.
the systems are like a $15,000 addition to a new home with the subsidies.. that is like a $300 or less a month payment. this is not only less than what their power bill would have been
Firstly, subsidies are only suitable when there are small numbers of people using solar. Otherwise, you have to pay the subside through increased taxes, with the government creaming some off the top to administer the scheme.
Secondly, I think you are greatly overestimating the amount of electricity generated.
For about $15,000 you would get a 2 kw system. That will generate about 2 kw at peak, but only about 10 kw/h in a day (in S. California, less elsewhere in the US). My house isn't particularly big, but I use about 20 kw/h a day.
Electricity costs me about 10p (20c) a kw/h. That $15,000 system would generate about $1 - $2 a day in electricity in S. Cal.
As for using it to power cars, remember the 10 or so KW/H in a litre of petrol? 35 or so in a US gallon. As battery powered cars are so much more efficient, you need a lot less than that to run the car, perhaps 10kw/h a gallon equivalent. But that means a $15,000 solar system will generate about the equivalent of a gallon a day.
-
nashwan... how many of your lefty predictions for the future have come true? that in the 60's we would run out of oil in 30 years? that the ice age would kill us all by 2000? scientists exaggerate all the time... nuclear got a bad rap but it did make for cheap power.
as for the solar.. say what you want but it is happening right now.. not 50 years from now.. now.. there are thousands (and more every day) of homes that have a ZERO DOLLAR electric bill.. the cost to run an electric car for 90% of the driving we need to do would be.... well... zero.
The domestic grid probly costs the power companies about 40% of their generation and maintenance costs.. if it was not on line or feeding instead of sucking up... commercial.. factories and such would get a bigger break.. things would cost less and homes would be powered mostly for free in almost any area of the US.
If we don't collapse into the stone age... this will happen.. there is no stopping it... the free market will provide.
hybrids? hate the things myself but... there are kits out... installed by the dealers that allow you to plug em in... that would mean you never had to start the cars gas engine for the most part.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
The US gets 40% of its energy from oil. That's almost all used in transport. The other 60% is used in homes and industry. Replacing the oil with electric vehicles will require about twice as much electricity generation as now.
That will take many years.
It offered huge advantages.
Hydrogen vehicles do not offer any advantages to the consumer over gasoline vehicles, and have several large disadvantages.
What renewable energy source?
Hydrogen can be used to produce energy, but only if you can find hydrogen. Because it's very reactive, you can't find substantial amounts unreacted.
What you find is water, which contains hydrogen. You can extract hydrogen from water, but it takes energy. In theory, if you can make the process 100% efficient, extracting hydrogen will require exactly the same amount of energy you get when you burn it.
In reality, neither the extraction or the burning is 100% efficient, which means you will always get out less energy than you put in.
How much energy do you say it takes to extract 1 kilo of H2 from H2O?
I would like to see references.
Nuclear is renewable enough to get the job done to extract H2 from H2O
Not sure what you mean by "reactive".
Of course it takes energy to extract H2 from H2O... no one said otherwise.
Advantages of H2 over Gasoline??? dang... you don't have to buy oil from the Hydra for openers, also using H2 fuel cells you can consider it an instant rechargeable battery of sorts... fill the H2 tank in a few minutes then motor away on electric power.
TIGERESS
PS: Made it to Yokohama... had a great dinner date with a Japanese guy from the local office here last evening... went to a Okinawa Restaurant... very different from regular Japanese food! Very good! yum!!!!
Flew non-stop from Newark, NJ to Tokyo over the North Pole and across Russia, north to south and entered Russian airspace just east of Siberia.
Upper artic circle area is already in peptual darkness so couldn't see Santa's house. lol
First time over Russia for me. Felt a little strange knowing they shot down KAL 007. I didn't see any Russian planes so that was good. Had no idea Russia allows US Air Carriers to over fly Russia.
EDIT: Jetlag is killin me. Still at work here and at the moment it's little after 6pm here but east coast time it's little after 4am. running out of steam... yawn!!!
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Read this; it clarifies what my opinion is at its root.
And the Quran says to kill those who do not convert to Islam; those who obey and kill us get unlimited sex with virgins (women) in heaven forever; men are horny; go figure.
Gonna nuke them all? how many countries would that be?
We are on the ropes... they are winning... everytime we shoot one them the Hydra grows two more just like him.
You don't stop that with B-2 borne nukes... they will just get to go to heaven and screw virgin women for Eternity!
TIGERESS
Any religion that promises nookie in the afterlife is dodgy IMHO
-
nashwan... how many of your lefty predictions for the future have come true?
A: I'm not a lefty.
B: I'm not predicting anything, just pointing out the dangers we face at the moment.
Oil is a very, very large part of the economy. It cannot be replaced quickly.
that in the 60's we would run out of oil in 30 years? that the ice age would kill us all by 2000?
In the 60s environmentalists were predicting that we would soon run out of aluminium, despite it being a substantial proportion of the earth's crust. The oil crisis of the 70s, when supply was deliberately restricted, was taken by environmentalists to mean oil was running out.
Environmentalists are nearly always wrong. I can't remember a single prediction they have made that came true.
scientists exaggerate all the time... nuclear got a bad rap but it did make for cheap power.
I think you need to differentiate between scientists and environmentalists. Al Gore is not a scientist. There is a huge difference between what scientists say, and what environmentalists say scientists are saying.
as for the solar.. say what you want but it is happening right now.. not 50 years from now.. now.. there are thousands (and more every day) of homes that have a ZERO DOLLAR electric bill.. the cost to run an electric car for 90% of the driving we need to do would be.... well... zero.
Again, try to look at the science rather than the claims of environmentalists.
Anybody can have a zero dollar electricity bill, simply by not using electricity. You can have a zero dollar electricity bill by buying $15,000 of solar panels and cutting your electricity consumption by 50%. Or you can have a zero dollar electricity bill by buying $15,000 of solar panels, and having the taxpayer buy you another $15,000 of solar panels.
But the fact remains you need more than $30,000 of solar panels to offset the electricity consumption of a typical house, and that's using dodges like selling electricity back to the grid at peak generation capacity (in the day) and buying it back from the grid at night. That's not viable if used by masses of people, either.
As for running a car, not practical. Maybe if you want to run a G Whiz (http://www.goingreen.co.uk/) but not for any sort of practical car.
If we don't collapse into the stone age... this will happen.. there is no stopping it... the free market will provide.
You talk about the free market, and then say solar is worthwhile "with subsidies"?
The truth is solar is only competitive in a free market for small out of the way installations. Power from the grid is about a third the cost of solar, even in a sunny location like socal.
hybrids? hate the things myself but... there are kits out... installed by the dealers that allow you to plug em in... that would mean you never had to start the cars gas engine for the most part.
So electric vehicles are suitable for "other people"? Truth is, hybrids are a waste of space. Even in the UK, where petrol now costs about 8$ a gallon due to taxes, hybrids are an extreme rarity. If you build a smaller, lighter car, you can get similar consumption out of a conventional drive train, at less cost.
How much energy do you say it takes to extract 1 kilo of H2 from H2O?
I would like to see references.
I don't know, I've seen suggestions electrolysis is about 50% efficient. Most hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels directly, rather than hydrolysis of water.
But, just on very basic scientific principles, you will always get less energy out than you put in. (see the second law of thermodynamics)
Nuclear is renewable enough to get the job done to extract H2 from H2O
It is. But you need an awful lot of nuclear power. In fact, you need about 5 times as many nuclear power stations as the US has now. And that's not counting the losses in production of hydrogen.
Advantages of H2 over Gasoline??? dang... you don't have to buy oil from the Hydra for openers, also using H2 fuel cells you can consider it an instant rechargeable battery of sorts... fill the H2 tank in a few minutes then motor away on electric power.
You can fill a tank with gasoline in a few minutes, too. The major differences for the consumer are that hydrogen would be more expensive than gasoline, the hydrogen car would be more expensive.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
I think you need to differentiate between scientists and environmentalists. Al Gore is not a scientist.
I`d place Gore in the opportunist/scam artist bracket.
-
Nashwan? Are you in the oil business?
Point is... The objective is... to stop using crude oil as much as possible. To stop buying oil from the middle east.
The point of the thread is eliminate the threat the middle east (The Hydra) poses to Humanity.
Also... there is a limited quanity of oil left in the world and demand is increasing dramatically. China is competing for oil at a very high rate of demand increase and it is no where near its peak demand yet.
Sure H2 from H2O is an emerging fuel... sure it's expensive... today... that is what is going on... to improve H2 extraction from H2O... to lower the cost.
Additionally when H2 is extracted so is O. Its the combination of the two.
How about we do this? Just extract Oxygen from H2O. Its not a fuel.
Automatically, H2 is provided free! lol
Hydrogen can not be "created"/manufactured.
It is a primary element.
It already exists... in compound... with other elements... as molecules like H2O.
By your arguement we never would have switched to the automobile from the horse and buggy. Cars were too expensive... no distributed infrastructure for fuel.
See what I mean?
Twice as much energy to refine gasoline as it produces?
Does the second law of thermodynamics apply to refinement of gasoline? and if so we wouldn't be using gasoline by your arguement... too expensive.
I never said switch from oil to H2 today!
The technology is not ready yet for that.
I said put full effort into making economically feasable the avaliability and use of H2 as a replacement fuel.
TIGERESS
-
Nashwan? Are you in the oil business?
No. Big consumer of the stuff, though.
Point is... The objective is... to stop using crude oil as much as possible. To stop buying oil from the middle east.
It's certainly a desirable outcome. The point I am making is we use oil now because it's cheap. Even now, at $100 a barrel, it's far cheaper than the alternatives.
Sure H2 from H2O is an emerging fuel... sure it's expensive... today
It's not so much the cost, it's the fact it's not a source of energy.
Oil is a source of energy. In fact, it's the largest single source of energy the US uses.
By your arguement we never would have switched from the horse and buggy. Cars were too expensive... no distributed infrastructure for fuel.
Cars offered huge advantages over horses. You can park a car on the street, leave it for days at a time. You only have to put fuel in when you want to use it. It's faster, with a greater range. It has the potential to be a lot cheaper, even if the early ones weren't.
Twice as much energy to refine gaoline as it produces?
Does the second law of thermodynamics apply to refinement of gasoline?
It's an entirely different thing. Oil burns. Even crude oil, if you get it hot, will burn and release net energy. Remember the burning oil wells in Kuwait?
Water doesn't burn.
Refining gasoline from oil means separating molecules from other molecules. Getting H2 from water means breaking down the molecule itself.
The reaction is H2 + O = energy + water.
Obviously the reverse is Energy + water = H2 + O.
Now, it's basic science that the amount of energy in both cases is the same. However, that's at 100% efficiency. In the real world, it's difficult to come up with a 100% efficient process.
So if electrolysis is 50% efficient, and a fuel cell 50% efficient, then for every 100 units of energy you put in, you will get 50 units of energy contained in the hydrogen you produce, and you will extract 25 units of energy from the hydrogen when you use it in the fuel cell.
I never said switch from oil to H2 today!
The technology is not ready yet for that.
I said put full effort into making feasable the use of H2 as a replacement fuel.
I said the market can't, because the end result will be less convenient and more expensive than gasoline.
With the current price of gasoline, and the state of technology, there is nothing that can compete with gasoline. That will probably be true even with oil at $300 a barrel.
Europe has high fuel taxes. In Britain, petrol (gasoline) costs about $8 a gallon. Diesel is slightly more expensive. Yet even in Britain, people drive either petrol or diesel cars, with hybrids and fully electric vehicles making up far less than 1% of the vehicles on the road.
Even at $8 a gallon, alternative technologies simply cannot compete.
Personally, I doubt hydrogen is the future. There are too many losses in producing and transporting it. I think electric cars will be the future, but even the best, most expensive batteries are nowhere near good enough yet.
-
nashwan... pay attention.. first... yes.. I believe you are a lefty from reading everything you write.
next.. I do know the difference between environmentalist (without papers) and scientist... when gore doesn't tho but... environmentalists who use scientists are simply parroting. the ice age thing had 250 of the "top" climate scientists all meeting and agreeing.. the end of oil by 2000 was scientists.
people here would have us believe that at least half the scientists believe in MMGW... death by co2.
as for cost... you didn't do the math. if the payment for a solar system costs $300 a month and your power bill would normally be $500 a month.. you are saving $200 a month.. the house value.. resale goes up the $30,000 of the panels and the house sells easier.. it is a fact here.... house with em are selling.
my guess is that the cost of installing solar panels will go down every year.. 5 years will see real $15,000 systems with subsidies by the power companies and low interest loans getting the real cost to maybe $75 a month. eventually.. it will be standard.
Now... take the hybrid.. convert it to plug in and you will make all your short trips free. The electricity was free. Most workplaces here allow you to plug in too.
I can build a hot rod out of any power source you give me. that is what hot rodding is all about.
I will still have the big block solid lfter monsters around tho... nothing like the sound of a big block or small block in full song with the tires clawing for traction and the passenger glued to the seat.
We own 1/4 of the worlds coal.. it can be turned into energy.. we have offshore reserves of oil and oil in alaska and... reserves that are hard to get.. at $90 a barrel.. options are gonna open up.
-
next.. I do know the difference between environmentalist (without papers) and scientist... when gore doesn't tho but... environmentalists who use scientists are simply parroting.
No, most of it they make up, or at least exaggerate. Read for example this criticism of Gore's film: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/11/do1102.xml
Note how what Gore is saying is not what the scientists are saying.
the ice age thing had 250 of the "top" climate scientists all meeting and agreeing
And your source for this is? That's right, the main stream media from 1975.
The truth is very different. The US national academy of sciences/national research council did put out a report on climate change in 1975, it concluded that the climate would eventually cool, as it had in the past, but that cooling might not begin for thousands of years. Above all, they said they did not know enough about the climate to make any predictions.
the end of oil by 2000 was scientists.
Was it? It seems to me scientists reported oil discoveries, the media took those records of how much oil had been found and speculated that no more would be.
as for cost... you didn't do the math. if the payment for a solar system costs $300 a month and your power bill would normally be $500 a month.. you are saving $200 a month.. the house value.. resale goes up the $30,000 of the panels and the house sells easier.. it is a fact here.... house with em are selling.
According to DOE, average cost for a unit of electricity in California in 2007 is 14.4c.
$500 gives you 3470 units of electricity.
A $30,000 solar system gives you about 300 units a month.
What's the payment on an unsubsidised $30,000 loan?
What's the monthly payment on the $300,000 solar system you need to provide as much electricity as you can buy with $500 a month?
my guess is that the cost of installing solar panels will go down every year.. 5 years will see real $15,000 systems with subsidies by the power companies and low interest loans getting the real cost to maybe $75 a month. eventually.. it will be standard.
Now... take the hybrid.. convert it to plug in and you will make all your short trips free. The electricity was free. Most workplaces here allow you to plug in too.
You talk about the market then you talk about "free" electricity, and subsidies, paid for by someone else.
"Free" has to be paid for by someone. Yes a few people can get subsidies now, because they are few. If 10 million Californians wanted to install solar panels, do you think they would all get the $15,000 subsidy? Who would pay the $150 billion cost? You would, with your taxes.
You would pay $15,000 for your $30,000 system, and the government would pay the other $15,000. And you would pay the government $20,000 in taxes for them to give you the $15,000 subsidy (with the other $5,000 going for the government to administer the scheme)
Oh, and add a few thousand dollars for you to cover the costs of the crooks who would commit fraud to get extra subsidies.
And you say I am a lefty? I've never considered government subsidies "free".
A $30,000 solar system generates about 10 kw/h a day. A kw/h cost about 14 c if you buy it from the grid. $30,000 dollars generates about $510 a year in electricity.
Invest $30,000 and you get a return that will pay your electricity bill, and increase your investment above the rate of inflation. In 30 years, when you need to replace the solar system, the $30,000 investment will still be paying your power bills.
Solar electricity still costs about 3 times as much as buying power from the grid. You may be able to get someone else to pay for you, but it still costs someone 3 times as much.
my guess is that the cost of installing solar panels will go down every year.. 5 years will see real $15,000 systems with subsidies by the power companies and low interest loans getting the real cost to maybe $75 a month. eventually.. it will be standard.
So it will be free because someone else will pay for it? Who? Why?
Your government might mandate it, but that still doesn't make it free. It just means it gets hidden in the price of a new house.
Now... take the hybrid.. convert it to plug in and you will make all your short trips free. The electricity was free.
Lazs, go and look at the G Whiz I posted a link to.
It's a silly little car, 51 inches wide, weighs less than 900 lbs without batteries, has a 2.2 kw motor (about 3 bhp) providing a claimed top speed of 45 mph.
It takes 10 kw/h to charge it fully, which provides a claimed range, in ideal conditions (no heater or air con, flat roads) of 45 miles.
That's the output of a $30,000 solar system to power a car that's little better than a toy about 40 miles, at best.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
The point of the thread is eliminate the threat the middle east (The Hydra) poses to Humanity.
:rofl :D
Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeerike one!
-
nashwan... I will have to dispute your math as I know people who have less than 30,000 dollar systems and their bill is zero.
They are paying less than $300 a month for the payment on the loan.. it is really more like $200 a month because the power company gave them a rebate... as did the state... I am not in favor of state rebates but... they power company did it to save themselves money...
the systems produce more electricity during the day than they can use.. that makes the meter run backwards... the power company uses that power and gives them a credit. they will not pay tho... they never go past zero.
And... the unit is not a loss... it increases the value of the home.. you will get every penny back when you sell and.. in todays market.. they are the only homes selling.
electric cars? expensive.. stupid but... there are some neat ones... neat enough to drive 5 miles to the supermarket or walmart in any case... hybrids? hate em but... you can make em plug in and then it would be "free" after initial cost and not including maint which would occur with any vehicle
Nope.. at least here in the states... it is gonna happen.. soon there will be systems that drop your bill to zero that cost like $10,000 the will be selling kits at home depot. low interest loans or part of equity line of credit with power company rebates... probly $25-$50 a month extra.. and you get it all back when you sell the home.
you win.. the power company wins... everyone wins.
oh..here is the electric car drag racing association.. looks like fun to me.
http://www.nedra.com/
lazs
-
nashwan... I will have to dispute your math as I know people who have less than 30,000 dollar systems and their bill is zero.
That's certainly possible with subsidies.
A $30,000 system will generate about 10 kw/h a day. If they got a 50% subsidy, then that's a $60,000 system, which would generate about 20 kw/h a day.
The average electricity usage in California is apparently just over 20 kw/h a day.
So yes, a $60,000 system could certainly get the average electricity bill to zero. Even a $30,000 system could do so if you use only half of average electricity.
Where you are wrong is in claiming their bill would otherwise be $500 a month. $500 of electricity is more than 5 times average consumption.
they power company did it to save themselves money...
No, the power company cannot save money by paying someone a lump sum so that they don't have to buy power.
The power company do it because the state government mandate it. It's not something they want to do, it's something they are forced to do. They pass the costs on to their other customers.
Once again it's a system that only works in small numbers. If everybody did it, they would all have to pay the true price, rather than getting other people to pay for their solar panels.
Note also that the subsidies are already declining as the uptake increases.
The first 70 mw installed in residential areas had to be subsidised by the power companies at $2.5 per watt. The next 30 mw were at $2.2, PGE is about to switch to stage 4, where the subsidy is down to $1.9
You advocate the free market, but the entire home solar system exists only because of subsidies.
And... the unit is not a loss... it increases the value of the home.. you will get every penny back when you sell and.. in todays market.. they are the only homes selling.
You will get every penny back of an overpriced, declining asset? Somehow I doubt it.
electric cars? expensive.. stupid but... there are some neat ones... neat enough to drive 5 miles to the supermarket or walmart in any case... hybrids? hate em but... you can make em plug in and then it would be "free" after initial cost and not including maint which would occur with any vehicle
The batteries just aren't up to it. Once again, even with petrol at $8 a gallon, no one wants them. They cost too much, are too limited.
Nope.. at least here in the states... it is gonna happen.. soon there will be systems that drop your bill to zero that cost like $10,000 the will be selling kits at home depot.
If solar ever gets that cheap, your bill still won't drop to zero. Everyone will be generating their own power in the day, when the sun goes down they will all need to buy power from the power company. And the power is going to be much more expensive if they have to run all the infrastructure just to sell power for a few hours a day.
And that still doesn't address the oil issue at all. Almost no oil is used for power generation in the developed world. Even if you can replace coal and gas and nuclear with solar, which is a long way off yet, then you still have to have some way of carrying the power with you in a car.
oh..here is the electric car drag racing association.. looks like fun to me.
I'm sure it is. Most people want to be able to drive more than a a quarter of a mile, though ;)
-
Nashwan,
Hydrogen burns directly.
Hydrogen has 3 to 4 times more energy, when directly burned, than gasoline per unit of weight.
Any internal combustion engine can be modified to burn it.
Why do you think the Hindenburg Air Ship went up in flames?
It's Hydrogen caught on fire.
Hydrogen is both a energy source and a energy carrier. Can be used either or both ways.
What do you think the Space Shuttle uses for fuel for it main engines?
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Nashwan,
Hydrogen burns directly.
Hydrogen has 3 to 4 times more energy, when directly burned, than gasoline per unit of weight.
Any internal combustion engine can be modified to burn it.
Why do you think the Hindenburg Air Ship went up in flames?
It's Hydrogen caught on fire.
Hydrogen is both a fuel source and a fuel carrier. Can be used either way.
What do you think the Space Shuttle uses for fuel for it main engines?
TIGERESS
I've read that it was the skin of the Hindenberg that burned so fiercely and not the hydrogen, though surely the hydrogen must have burned.
Well, the skin has been blamed for starting the fire anyhow and it is believed that the dirigible would have burned even if filled with helium.
-
Hydrogen burns. Where are you going to get hydrogen?
-
You can get Hydrogen from H2O, also there are microbes which produce Hydrogen.
It’s referred to as a biomass Hydrogen source.
AKIron: It is thought the skin of the Hindenburg was the match that started the Hindenburg's Hydrogen fueled fire.
Something ignited the paint on the skin, probably static discharge from a build up of free electrons on the surface of the Hindenburg which caused an electrical arc when the mooring lines provided an electrical conduction path to ground.
Hydrogen burns extremely well. Why do you think it is you are cautioned not to charge a lead acid battery near flames?
The electrolysis process of charging said battery produces Hydrogen gas.
What the heck do you think the Space Shuttle burns in it main engines?
Answer: Hydrogen
Remember the explosion shortly after takeoff of the Challenger Space Shuttle?
Its huge orange external fuel tank which was full of Hydrogen and Oxygen, exploded due to a burn through from a booster which suffered an o-ring failure.
Of interest, the Sun is a huge ball of Hydrogen.
Its Hydrogen does not burn directly because there is no Oxygen present but, by process of Fusion which was started and is maintained by the energy of extremely strong gravity, its Hydrogen is converted to Helium and the energy given off as a result is the energy the Sun produces.
Hydrogen is a miracle and is the single most abundant element in the universe.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
AKIron: It is thought the skin of the Hindenburg was the match that started the Hindenburg fire.
TIGERESS
You're right, see my edit.
-
To get hydrogen from water, you have to put in enough energy to break the hydrogen-oxygen bonds. When you burn oxygen and hydrogen, you get the same amount of energy released, if both reactions are 100% efficient.
They may, one day, approach 100% efficiency. They cannot, ever, exceed 100% efficiency.
You will never, ever, get more energy out of hydrogen you have produced from water than you used to produce it.
also there are microbes which produce Hydrogen.
Which may prove a useful source of energy one day. I'm not arguing that hydrogen can't be used, just pointing out that producing hydrogen from water requires more energy than it produces, and therefore cannot be an energy source.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
To get hydrogen from water, you have to put in enough energy to break the hydrogen-oxygen bonds. When you burn oxygen and hydrogen, you get the same amount of energy released, if both reactions are 100% efficient.
They may, one day, approach 100% efficiency. They cannot, ever, exceed 100% efficiency.
You will never, ever, get more energy out of hydrogen you have produced from water than you used to produce it.
Which may prove a useful source of energy one day. I'm not arguing that hydrogen can't be used, just pointing out that producing hydrogen from water requires more energy than it produces, and therefore cannot be an energy source.
It could prove to be a useful energy storage mechanism though. Wind/wave/solar/thirdworldworker farms could be used to cheaply mass produce hydrogen. Storage and distribution facilities then become the problem to solve.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
I've read that it was the skin of the Hindenberg that burned so fiercely and not the hydrogen, though surely the hydrogen must have burned.
Well, the skin has been blamed for starting the fire anyhow and it is believed that the dirigible would have burned even if filled with helium.
Agreed the skin burned. But... the Hydrogen was the fireball.
The USA had a corner on the Helium market and witheld Helium from the world forcing Nazi Germany to resort to Hydrogen gas... a very explosive gas.
TIGERESS
Edit: see --> http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1052864.htm
excerpt: "The disaster was blamed on the extreme flammability of the hydrogen lifting gas that filled most of the airship.
This bad reputation of hydrogen still bothers car manufacturers today, as they explore the use of hydrogen as a safe, non-polluting alternative to fossil fuels for powering cars. But it turns out that the extreme flammability of hydrogen is a mythconception."
The author of this article states Hydrogen is safe. Well it is not safe... but can be safe enough to use in automobiles.
Gasoline is not safe... power itself is not safe.
Not even the power of love.
Lazs and I have long debated the power of male dominance over females.
Its not safe for us unless it is contained and self-controlled.
The Hydra is out of control and that brings us back full circle as to the point of this thread.
The Quran gives permission and authority, in the Name of God, to use the power of male dominance to conquer the non-Muslim world and make it submit to the control of Islam.
Every damn time we fill our gasoline tank we are putting money into the pockets of Islam.
Switching to Hydrogen will stop that.
(http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/IslamicHolyWar.jpg)
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
To get hydrogen from water, you have to put in enough energy to break the hydrogen-oxygen bonds. When you burn oxygen and hydrogen, you get the same amount of energy released, if both reactions are 100% efficient.
They may, one day, approach 100% efficiency. They cannot, ever, exceed 100% efficiency.
You will never, ever, get more energy out of hydrogen you have produced from water than you used to produce it.
Which may prove a useful source of energy one day. I'm not arguing that hydrogen can't be used, just pointing out that producing hydrogen from water requires more energy than it produces, and therefore cannot be an energy source.
The point is... it is efficient enough now to work as an energy carrier but not yet cost effective on a macro-scale and Hydrogen, when burned directly, is 300% to 400% more powerful than gasoline per unit of weight.
I think we have reached consensus.
TIGERESS
PS: just having my morning coffee; almost time to start the day and go to work.
-
nashwan... you continue to miss the point. the power companies subsidize it because it is good for them.. they get power when it is most needed instead of pushing it through the grid.
the systems are indeed $30,000... follow the links.. the power company gives out loans and subsidies that make it much cheaper.
and yes.. you will get back every penny when you sell and yes... houses with these systems are the only bright spot in our housing market.. they are selling as fast as they go on the market.
in vacaville...near me.. a whole tract of 100+ homes is built now with the systems standard.. they look much like tile roofs. They are all selling.
I am not for government subsidies but if the power companies want to then it is a great idea.
I checked with the guy at work.. his system, after rebates etc. costs him $135 a month for the life of his home loan and his power bill for 2 years has been zero.
He figures he gets a net gain out of the deal of about $50 a month.. it would be more if the power company bought back power instead of gave credit... some places do this.
electric cars.. lets take worse case scenario... say 75 miles on a recharge.. that will still take care of 90% of our daily driving. We had pure electric cars at work that the state gave us for test purpose... range on the nissan van was about 125 miles for a day.. it was seamless to drive but not good after about 45 mph.. great around town... would not want it for the freeway tho.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Nashwan? Are you in the oil business?
Point is... The objective is... to stop using crude oil as much as possible. To stop buying oil from the middle east.
The point of the thread is eliminate the threat the middle east (The Hydra) poses to Humanity.
TIGERESS
well nashwan might not be... but uncle sam is in the oil business... or rather it is more akin to a mafia style protection and extortion racket..
tigeress... what you fail to realize is that the usd is kept afloat by these very dictators who run the opec oil trade.
it all goes back to 1971 when kissinger offered the oil cartel members a deal they couldn't refuse... and since then all oil from opec had to be bought and sold in usd funds making it the de facto world currency. the opec dictators also agreed to invest vast amounts of their embezzled wealth back into the us economy. now if by chance the opec countries became democratic states... they'd surely pull all that embezzled wealth from wall street and invest it at home... and the usd would crash.
so that is why uncle sam keeps these sordid dictatorships in power and attempt to overthrow democracies like in venezuela and iran... it's called recycling the petrodollar and it means a free lunch for the american economy.
what it basically boils down to is that the rest of the world has to horde usd funds to pay for their energy costs and commodities... which means they're subsidizing the american economy. but now there is a tectonic shift in the world banking system as more countries are going to the euro to buy and sell oil. that means all those american cheques are coming home to roost and your standard of living will pay the cost.
the war in the middle-east is a war between the petrodollar and the petroeuro with the muslims and religion caught in the middle.
the neo-cons tripping over lies and broken bodies in hast to annex iraq to western corporations... was all about returning iraqi oil sales from the euro ( which saddam did in 2000 ) back to the usd.
it's just a dirty sunni secret that uncle sam likes to hide from the public.
ron paul one of the last few honest americans left is telling the truth about it...
-
Originally posted by Torque
well nashwan might not be... but uncle sam is in the oil business... or rather it is more akin to a mafia style protection and extortion racket..
tigeress... what you fail to realize is that the usd is kept afloat by these very dictators who run the opec oil trade.
it all goes back to 1971 when kissinger offered the oil cartel members a deal they couldn't refuse... and since then all oil from opec had to be bought and sold in usd funds making it the de facto world currency. the opec dictators also agreed to invest vast amounts of their embezzled wealth back into the us economy. now if by chance the opec countries became democratic states... they'd surely pull all that embezzled wealth from wall street and invest it at home... and the usd would crash.
so that is why uncle sam keeps these sordid dictatorships in power and attempt to overthrow democracies like in venezuela and iran... it's called recycling the petrodollar and it means a free lunch for the american economy.
what it basically boils down to is that the rest of the world has to horde usd funds to pay for their energy costs and commodities... which means they're subsidizing the american economy. but now there is a tectonic shift in the world banking system as more countries are going to the euro to buy and sell oil. that means all those american cheques are coming home to roost and your standard of living will pay the cost.
the war in the middle-east is a war between the petrodollar and the petroeuro with the muslims and religion caught in the middle.
the neo-cons tripping over lies and broken bodies in hast to annex iraq to western corporations... was all about returning iraqi oil sales from the euro ( which saddam did in 2000 ) back to the usd.
it's just a dirty sunni secret that uncle sam likes to hide from the public.
ron paul one of the last few honest americans left is telling the truth about it...
Saddam had already ditched the US dollar for the Euro and was going to sell all his oil in said Euros. Of course the 1st thing the US did was revert Iraqs oil back to the dollar. I dont recall the exact numbers, but doing so wasted a bunch of Iraqs money.
Iran, via the Iranian oil Bourse which last month changed its oil from petrodollars to petroeuros.. now offers countries a choice:$50 dollars in oil on the NYMEX and IPE, - or for €37 - €40 euros. Also of interest, between 2003-2004 Russia and China increased their central bank holdings of the euro... to buy up some cheap oil perhaps.
Iran doing this alone could be a bad thing for the US economy, but had Saddams Iraq and Iran done so together, it could have just about caused the dollar to collapse... and would expose the DC mafia deal our leaders and their super rich pals have enjoyed for so long.
edit: certainly this is one reason Bush / Cheney have a wicked case of priapism for Iran, once the bourse becomes popular, Iran will be wealthy enough to laugh at US sanctions and could toy with US oil prices like OPEC has been known to do. Besides that, Russia & China will get drunk on cheap petroeuros and pee in any bowl of Cheerios the US takes to the UN.
-
Originally posted by Torque
well nashwan might not be... but uncle sam is in the oil business... or rather it is more akin to a mafia style protection and extortion racket..
tigeress... what you fail to realize is that the usd is kept afloat by these very dictators who run the opec oil trade.
it all goes back to 1971 when kissinger offered the oil cartel members a deal they couldn't refuse... and since then all oil from opec had to be bought and sold in usd funds making it the de facto world currency. the opec dictators also agreed to invest vast amounts of their embezzled wealth back into the us economy. now if by chance the opec countries became democratic states... they'd surely pull all that embezzled wealth from wall street and invest it at home... and the usd would crash.
so that is why uncle sam keeps these sordid dictatorships in power and attempt to overthrow democracies like in venezuela and iran... it's called recycling the petrodollar and it means a free lunch for the american economy.
what it basically boils down to is that the rest of the world has to horde usd funds to pay for their energy costs and commodities... which means they're subsidizing the american economy. but now there is a tectonic shift in the world banking system as more countries are going to the euro to buy and sell oil. that means all those american cheques are coming home to roost and your standard of living will pay the cost.
the war in the middle-east is a war between the petrodollar and the petroeuro with the muslims and religion caught in the middle.
the neo-cons tripping over lies and broken bodies in hast to annex iraq to western corporations... was all about returning iraqi oil sales from the euro ( which saddam did in 2000 ) back to the usd.
it's just a dirty sunni secret that uncle sam likes to hide from the public.
ron paul one of the last few honest americans left is telling the truth about it...
Yes... "oh what webs we weave when we practice to deceive"
The US is guilty as sin, IMV, of manuplation and self-serving at the expense of others.
Also guilty of a serious "holier than thou" Arian-esque attitude.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Yes... "oh what webs we weave when we practice to deceive"
The US is guilty as sin, IMV, of manuplation and self-serving at the expense of others.
Also guilty of a serious "holier than thou" Arian-esque attitude.
TIGERESS
Here is an article that explains the problem Iran poses to the rich folks who own the politicians:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7319
"As long as the dollar was the only acceptable payment for oil, its dominance in the world was assured, and the American Empire could continue to tax the rest of the world. If, for any reason, the dollar lost its oil backing, the American Empire would cease to exist. Thus, Imperial survival dictated that oil be sold only for dollars. . . . If someone demanded a different payment, he had to be convinced, either by political pressure or military means, to change his mind."
"That could explain the big guns trained on Iran. The intent may not be to thwart the development of nuclear weapons so much as to pluck a budding economic alternative out by its roots before it has a chance to spread. Dominoes that won't fall into the debt trap must be pushed."
-
Wanted to add, after reading this excellent article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index....va&aid=7319
All the WMD drama, the phony war on terror and, all the absurd mid east fear mongering becomes transparent for what it is.
Saddam was the 1st oil dude to go euro & challenge the US dollar dominance, we all saw what happened to him in the name of justice. Guess who the other two are? Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez, both have oil and are challenging the mafia style 'US dollar for oil' set up the uber rich (the 10%) have enjoyed, and has allowed the US massive leverage over other countries.
Russias plans to open an Energy Stock Exchange next year to trade oil in rubles.. which will be another kick in the US economy's testis. Interesting that Yury Baluyevsky, the chief of Russia's general staff, said in an interview on Russian TV that the Russian Armed Forces were under no obligation to protect the world from the "..evil Americans..".
"Today, there is no need to be afraid of the Russian Armed Forces. However, I do not believe that the Russian military is obliged to defend the world from the evil Americans".
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20071113/87814389.html
The US dollar is more under attack than the US people are, so whats a bought and paid for politician (and party) to do? other than fight back. One way to win this battle is by outsmarting the enemy, reforming the US economy and taking away from the filthy rich... but US politicians are too inept & neutered to do 'smart', the other battle plan: create some really sacry low budget islamo mid-east fear that will make the average soccer mom incontinent with worry over anthrax attacks on her kids.. as a 3x time DUI offending drunk illegal alien driving his 3 ton 1980s hoopty ride 80MPH narrowly misses wiping out her bundles of joy.
...then send in the troops and revert these 'rouge' nations back to the dollar (Iraq), bomb it to the stone age (Iran), or talk lots of poop and clown on the nutty president (Chavez)
In 2006 the UN found 50% percent of the world's population owns 1% percent of its wealth, the richest 10% owned 85%.
"In the United States, the only money created by the government today consists of coins......... (dollar bills) are created by the Federal Reserve, a private banking corporation, and lent to the government..." with interest, of course. "Estimates are that eliminating interest charges could cut the cost of infrastructure, sustainable energy development and other government programs in half.."
-
Originally posted by GovtFlu
Wanted to add, after reading this excellent article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index....va&aid=7319
All the WMD drama, the phony war on terror and, all the absurd mid east fear mongering becomes transparent for what it is.
Saddam was the 1st oil dude to go euro & challenge the US dollar dominance, we all saw what happened to him in the name of justice. Guess who the other two are? Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez, both have oil and are challenging the mafia style 'US dollar for oil' set up the uber rich (the 10%) have enjoyed, and has allowed the US massive leverage over other countries.
Russias plans to open an Energy Stock Exchange next year to trade oil in rubles.. which will be another kick in the US economy's testis. Interesting that Yury Baluyevsky, the chief of Russia's general staff, said in an interview on Russian TV that the Russian Armed Forces were under no obligation to protect the world from the "..evil Americans..".
"Today, there is no need to be afraid of the Russian Armed Forces. However, I do not believe that the Russian military is obliged to defend the world from the evil Americans".
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20071113/87814389.html
The US dollar is more under attack than the US people are, so whats a bought and paid for politician (and party) to do? other than fight back. One way to win this battle is by outsmarting the enemy, reforming the US economy and taking away from the filthy rich... but US politicians are too inept & neutered to do 'smart', the other battle plan: create some really sacry low budget islamo mid-east fear that will make the average soccer mom incontinent with worry over anthrax attacks on her kids.. as a 3x time DUI offending drunk illegal alien driving his 3 ton 1980s hoopty ride 80MPH narrowly misses wiping out her bundles of joy.
...then send in the troops and revert these 'rouge' nations back to the dollar (Iraq), bomb it to the stone age (Iran), or talk lots of poop and clown on the nutty president (Chavez)
In 2006 the UN found 50% percent of the world's population owns 1% percent of its wealth, the richest 10% owned 85%.
"In the United States, the only money created by the government today consists of coins......... (dollar bills) are created by the Federal Reserve, a private banking corporation, and lent to the government..." with interest, of course. "Estimates are that eliminating interest charges could cut the cost of infrastructure, sustainable energy development and other government programs in half.."
Thanks for the posts and reference urls, GovtFlu.
How do you happen to be so well informed?
TIGERESS
PS: heading home Sunday. Trip has been a success.
-
go to your bank, they can change euros into US dollars.
-
all that aside... the price of oil is going to cause an adjustment.
That may be that we will use less of it and use alternatives.. that may be that we stop being idiots and explore offshore and in alaska till we adjust... it may be that there will be some pain and manipulation involved while this is happening but...
No matter what evils the US inflicts on govt flu.. it is nothing (as tigress points out) compared to a muslim state growing in power... the one saving grace of the US.. the one thing that makes us better.. is our separation of church and state.
nothing compares.. we could not live as they do.. communism would be better.
No one here would be able to live under a muslim church state... they would be mutilated and killed.
every single poster here. those who eat pork.. those who will not pray 5 times a day.. those who listen to music or even own art... Those who would drink or do drugs.. those who are homosexual.. those who blaspheme would have their tounges cut out.. lose a hand if they think you stole... adultry would bring on a stoning.. the police would enforce religion. any nation that had a muslim church state would sink into the dark ages and poverty.
this does seem a little more scary than wiping out a few terrorists and establishing a democratic state in the region.
in the grand scheme of things that is.
lazs
-
Originally posted by GovtFlu
Wanted to add, after reading this excellent article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index....va&aid=7319
All the WMD drama, the phony war on terror and, all the absurd mid east fear mongering becomes transparent for what it is.
Saddam was the 1st oil dude to go euro & challenge the US dollar dominance, we all saw what happened to him in the name of justice. Guess who the other two are? Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez, both have oil and are challenging the mafia style 'US dollar for oil' set up the uber rich (the 10%) have enjoyed, and has allowed the US massive leverage over other countries.
Russias plans to open an Energy Stock Exchange next year to trade oil in rubles.. which will be another kick in the US economy's testis. Interesting that Yury Baluyevsky, the chief of Russia's general staff, said in an interview on Russian TV that the Russian Armed Forces were under no obligation to protect the world from the "..evil Americans..".
"Today, there is no need to be afraid of the Russian Armed Forces. However, I do not believe that the Russian military is obliged to defend the world from the evil Americans".
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20071113/87814389.html
The US dollar is more under attack than the US people are, so whats a bought and paid for politician (and party) to do? other than fight back. One way to win this battle is by outsmarting the enemy, reforming the US economy and taking away from the filthy rich... but US politicians are too inept & neutered to do 'smart', the other battle plan: create some really sacry low budget islamo mid-east fear that will make the average soccer mom incontinent with worry over anthrax attacks on her kids.. as a 3x time DUI offending drunk illegal alien driving his 3 ton 1980s hoopty ride 80MPH narrowly misses wiping out her bundles of joy.
...then send in the troops and revert these 'rouge' nations back to the dollar (Iraq), bomb it to the stone age (Iran), or talk lots of poop and clown on the nutty president (Chavez)
In 2006 the UN found 50% percent of the world's population owns 1% percent of its wealth, the richest 10% owned 85%.
"In the United States, the only money created by the government today consists of coins......... (dollar bills) are created by the Federal Reserve, a private banking corporation, and lent to the government..." with interest, of course. "Estimates are that eliminating interest charges could cut the cost of infrastructure, sustainable energy development and other government programs in half.."
Bravo :aok
-
Originally posted by Torque
well nashwan might not be... but uncle sam is in the oil business... or rather it is more akin to a mafia style protection and extortion racket..
tigeress... what you fail to realize is that the usd is kept afloat by these very dictators who run the opec oil trade.
it all goes back to 1971 when kissinger offered the oil cartel members a deal they couldn't refuse... and since then all oil from opec had to be bought and sold in usd funds making it the de facto world currency. the opec dictators also agreed to invest vast amounts of their embezzled wealth back into the us economy. now if by chance the opec countries became democratic states... they'd surely pull all that embezzled wealth from wall street and invest it at home... and the usd would crash.
so that is why uncle sam keeps these sordid dictatorships in power and attempt to overthrow democracies like in venezuela and iran... it's called recycling the petrodollar and it means a free lunch for the american economy.
what it basically boils down to is that the rest of the world has to horde usd funds to pay for their energy costs and commodities... which means they're subsidizing the american economy. but now there is a tectonic shift in the world banking system as more countries are going to the euro to buy and sell oil. that means all those american cheques are coming home to roost and your standard of living will pay the cost.
the war in the middle-east is a war between the petrodollar and the petroeuro with the muslims and religion caught in the middle.
the neo-cons tripping over lies and broken bodies in hast to annex iraq to western corporations... was all about returning iraqi oil sales from the euro ( which saddam did in 2000 ) back to the usd.
it's just a dirty sunni secret that uncle sam likes to hide from the public.
ron paul one of the last few honest americans left is telling the truth about it...
Bravo :aok
-
and this is a bad thing in what way? the sadmans rule was just and good? his attacking his neighbors to control even more of the oil was a good thing how?
We will establish a democratic state that the people are allowed a constitution and the right to vote is bad how?
Of course we have self interest.. who does not? How are we hurting the people of iraq by getting rid of the sadman and allowing them the right to vote for their own destiny?
how are we hurting the world by helping to establish a democratic state in that craphole region?
lazs
-
nashwan... you continue to miss the point. the power companies subsidize it because it is good for them.. they get power when it is most needed instead of pushing it through the grid.
No lazs, they subsidise it because they are ordered to do so by the government.
See for example http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45118
Note in particular this bit:
At the end of the year, the customer gets one bill, with all the debits and credits tallied up. Though the law says the bill can never end up in the negative, with PG&E owing the customer money, it can equal zero, making solar panels cost effective over time.
But as a compromise to the utility companies, the law also has a cap
For PG&E, the 0.5 percent cap translates to about 95 megawatts of solar generated power. The utility contends the cap is necessary because it can't afford to keep offering a one-to-one swap on energy, which basically means it's buying energy at retail price rather than cost. PG&E officials say they support raising the cap to 2.5 percent but the extra costs will be reflected in rates.
"There should be a recognition that the net energy metering program is a subsidy that is paid for by other PG&E customers," said Paul Moreno, a PG&E spokesman.
The power companies not only have to subsidise the installation of the solar panels, they then have to buy the electricity they generate at retail prices, about 14c per kw/h. They then have to sell that power to other retail customers for the same price they paid for it, even thought they will suffer losses in transmission.
the systems are indeed $30,000... follow the links.. the power company gives out loans and subsidies that make it much cheaper.
But it's still being paid for. My neighbour gets a free car because he is disabled. Doesn't mean cars are free.
and yes.. you will get back every penny when you sell and yes... houses with these systems are the only bright spot in our housing market.. they are selling as fast as they go on the market.
Actually I've seen a likely reason for that, apart from the feel good factor of "helping the environment".
Earlier solar adopters got much more subsidy. If you sign up now, you can sell the electricity you generate for 26c per kw/h, soon to drop to 22c. If you got in at the start of the scheme, you get 39c per kw/h. (and consider those prices. retail cost of electricity is about 14c in California, but the power companies are forced to buy it at up to 39c to subsidise solar)
BTW, if a government department or charity installs solar, the power companies are forced to pay 50c per kw/h to the early adopters, and 37c to those installing systems now.
Then again, perhaps the houses sell because people think they will generate $500 a month in electricity ;)
I am not for government subsidies but if the power companies want to then it is a great idea.
But the power companies don't want to, do they? They don't mind too much, because the costs are passed on to consumers, and all the power providers have to pay the same subsidies, but it's certainly not something they would be doing unless the government made them.
I must say lazs it's a change seeing you championing green initiatives supported by public subsidies. I am surprised because you have to pay for other people's solar panels twice, once through your taxes (the California government are chipping in $3.4 billion) and once through your electricity bill.
I'd have thought you'd have been against that.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Yes... "oh what webs we weave when we practice to deceive"
The US is guilty as sin, IMV, of manuplation and self-serving at the expense of others.
Also guilty of a serious "holier than thou" Arian-esque attitude.
TIGERESS
well... that's a very honest reply tigeress... and i would agree with you.
but... 18 pages of fluff before the core issue was even mentioned should ring some bells.
-
govtflu... an article dated june '03.
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HEA306B.html
ron pauls speech to the house of representatives feb in 2006.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul303.html
what you won't find on the blue dress media dial... chavez the king of opec vs the wall street mafia.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhs0u...feature=related
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/art...ew.cgi/61/20837
why would iran go with the shanghai oil coop and the euro.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua2F8VrAaK4&feature=related
nations tax their citizens... empires tax nations...taxation without representation is tyranny... the concept often gets lost in translation here.
-
Originally posted by Torque
well... that's a very honest reply tigeress... and i would agree with you.
but... 18 pages of fluff before the core issue was even mentioned should ring some bells.
Fluff is in the eye of the fluffee! :rofl
Sometimes it takes some talk to peel the layers of the onion to get to the heart of the matter.
Someday if you guys start paying taxes to this country you will also get to vote here in addition to voicing opinions from your side of the border! :rofl :rofl :rofl
But we love you Canada boys, nonetheless! ;)
Didn't the US invade Canada at one time? I don't remember why...
Can't quite out my finger on it but there is just something about full time US resident Greencard carrying Canadians crapping on the US that seems to ruffle feathers in the lower 48. :p
Don't mind me, dear, just some good natured ribbing...
TIGERESS
-
nashwan.. I see the article is old. they are still buying back power.
What they are saying is that they don't want to pay the same price they are charging. I have no problem with this. They should pay what they are paying other suppliers plus the cost of sending it to the grid.
They already are making out in that they don't buy back electrical once you reach zero... they get it for free at that point.
also.. they knew the rules when they grabbed the power. they knew they would be regulated.
also.. you are talking about one type of system.. there are others that use backup that will make you independent. not even hooked to the grid.
What you are saying is that since.. in 1970... it took the whole floor of a skyscraper in a clean room to build and run a computer that could do a simple accounting program... that it would never be possible for citizens to have private computers... least not in the near future.. not to mention cell phones.
When I sell my home for an obscene profit and move away from all the crap... I will put in a stand alone system and a backup generator. I will have a well and septic. I know that I will be better off.
The systems drop in price every year.. your power bill is double what it was 10 years ago.. your sewer and water in kalifornia can run $300 a month. It will only go higher as the greens use more junk science to tax and control.
I have been in several houses that are energy independent. they will be more and more common.
The phone company said pretty much what PG&E is saying now but.. now it is singing a different tune with all you can eat long distance and internet and all sorts of competition... some folks don't even hook to a phone line.
SMUD is the other power company near PG&E and they are giving out even more subsidies and doing well.. PG&E has kept it's programs and is still functioning... even tho.. before the programs.. they almost went broke about 6 years ago..
lazs
-
nashwan.. I see the article is old. they are still buying back power.
Yes, they changed the scheme again. The new scheme meant the power companies had to pay $2.5 per installed watt, or 39c per kw/h generated, for the first 10 mw. That drops to $2.2 for the next 14mw or so installed, then $1.9 for the next 18mw, and so on.
Latest claims from the industry are that $2.2 isn't enough, and sales are dropping sharply. Expect the government to change the scheme, increasing the subsidy, yet again. How else can the governor claim to be "green", other than spending other people's money on gesture politics?
They already are making out in that they don't buy back electrical once you reach zero... they get it for free at that point.
That's after they have paid the installation subsidies, of course. But the point is that very few people generate enough to give them a truly zero electricity bill.
also.. they knew the rules when they grabbed the power. they knew they would be regulated.
Oh, they don't mind too much. They don't have to pay, after all. The consumers have to pay. The people who buy electricity have to pay to cover the costs of buying solar at up to 50c per kw/h, when the power company can buy power from a coal or gas plant at 3 - 4c per kw/h.
also.. you are talking about one type of system.. there are others that use backup that will make you independent. not even hooked to the grid.
Which cost a lot more again, because you have to store a lot of power. Storing the 10 - 20 kw/h you generate in a day isn't cheap, especially as the batteries have to be able to provide up to 10 kw or so at a time.
What you are saying is that since.. in 1970... it took the whole floor of a skyscraper in a clean room to build and run a computer that could do a simple accounting program... that it would never be possible for citizens to have private computers... least not in the near future.. not to mention cell phones.
Computers aren't a suitable example. Computers have become more powerful by continuously shrinking the size of the components. That means the same size chip can contain millions more components, and costs no more to manufacture.
Solar panels don't work like that. They have an external input (the sun) that can't be changed, so shrinking the components won't work. You could come up with a new way to make them more efficient, but they haven't improved much in decades, and not for want of trying.
When I sell my home for an obscene profit and move away from all the crap... I will put in a stand alone system and a backup generator. I will have a well and septic. I know that I will be better off.
Look in to the figures before you do. Remember that a subsidy promised today might be taken away tomorrow.
The systems drop in price every year
Costs of solar installations have actually been increasing slightly for the last few years (minus subsidies)
your power bill is double what it was 10 years ago
Mine isn't. It's actually a bit lower now in real terms than it was 10 years ago. It would be even lower if I didn't have to pay subsidies for wind farms.
your sewer and water in kalifornia can run $300 a month. It will only go higher as the greens use more junk science to tax and control.
You mean as the greens force you to subsidise uneconomic power generation systems, like solar? Yes, I agree. Without solar power, electricity bills would be lower in California. A few people, those who have got the biggest subsidies, would be worse off, but the vast majority would save money.
The phone company said pretty much what PG&E is saying now but.. now it is singing a different tune with all you can eat long distance and internet and all sorts of competition
Again it's a different principle. Telephones do not need much power. Telephone companies can use ever smaller, cheaper machines to transmit more and more calls. Using the phone costs almost nothing, most of the cost is in maintaining the lines.
Power isn't the same. You could miniaturise your TV, and watch a screen the size of a postage stamp, but people actually want larger screens, which use more power than older TVs. You could miniaturise your fridge, but then your food wouldn't fit in it.
SMUD is the other power company near PG&E and they are giving out even more subsidies and doing well.
They're owned by the local government, aren't they? Of course they are doing well, they charge what they want. They charge enough to cover the cost of the solar subsidies they give out.
PG&E has kept it's programs and is still functioning.
Of course it will function. All the commercial power companies have to offer the same subsidies, so they all pass the costs on to the customers. The state can set any level of subsidy they like, PGE will be fine because it's their customers that have to pay.
Here's another article that sets it out more clearly than I can:
http://www.reason.org/commentaries/summers_20060213.shtml
The California Public Utilities Commission recently voted to approve a 10-year, $3 billion subsidy program for individuals and businesses that install solar panels on their roofs. The money will come from—guess who?—you. There will be a surcharge on consumers' gas and electricity bills that is expected to cost a typical family about $13 a year.
If solar technology is expected to be efficient and affordable in 10 years, why are gas and electricity customers getting soaked to the tune of $3 billion in the meantime?
Right now, there is a reason people do not use solar panels in larger numbers. The cost is prohibitively high—solar energy is the most expensive form of renewable energy—and simply not worth it. This may change in time as solar and other renewable technologies improve. When it becomes economical and prudent for people to switch to renewable energy, they will.
It is not the proper function of government to "encourage" inefficient or unsupported technologies or products (or efficient ones, for that matter). The sun tax amounts to little more than a wasteful and unnecessary giveaway to a politically-favored industry—at the expense of gas and electricity customers across the state.
Californians already pay some of the highest utility rates in the country and can add $13 per year to those bills now. PUC Commissioner Brown asked, "At what point are our rates too high to add a multi-billion [dollar] subsidy program?"
Like I said, amazing to see you arguing for higher taxes to support green subsidies.
-
nashwan.. I am not sure that you are not saying the same thing as I am.
I am not shocked that you would want to have a taxpayer supported industry not be accountable and to remain in control.
The rates will move around as this thing evolves...just as computer prices and phone use did.. don't you recall the adjustments.
computers are indeed a good example.. you claim it was the miniturizing that caused the breakthrough which is fine but.. the same with solar.. you are not seriously saying that a 4 x 8 panel puts out the same power now as 20 years ago... focused mirrors are coming on the horizon they will cut cost and size.. exactly like computers.
most of what you say proves my point tho.. the old article talks of it being impossible to buy the power.. the adjustments were made. it is being bought back at a decent rate. for all.
why is it that the power companies ask to have devices put on your meter (not where you live maybe but here in the US) that cut your power during peak useage.. they pay for that.. they "susidize" because it helps them they don't have to expand for the increase in peak.
You are not trying to tell me that a few (as you put it) homes that aren't using their power is going to bring them down I hope? That making power during peak demands is hurting them?
The systems work. I know people with em. Do you? have you ever seen one?
as for it being a subsidy... I don't know if this really applies.. the power company is using less coal and gas to run and doesn't have to expand near so fast to push power through the straw that is the domestic grid... they are buying power at a good rate and selling it back for more.. the people won't have as many blackouts and brownouts to deal with...
It is not like giving incentives to people to drive a hybrid.. the hybrid still uses the same roads as everyone else and returns nothing to the taxpayer except the promise of "helping to clean the environment" or some such.
please link me to where the cost of installations of systems has increased. on a per watt basis.
In any case.. unless you think solar is a dead end.. that the panels and systems currently in use on homes are the best and the cheapest they will ever get... my point is still relevant... their increased use and lowering of cost in both the systems and what the power companies charge is inevitable.
At worst.. the subsidies will cause the same problems that solar hot water had where all kinds of junk got put up and for a decade or two.. made worse by power becoming cheaper... the system installations declined.. now they are up again with solar hot water heating tiled floors in homes.
one thing is certain, and, I can't believe you are so short sighted on this... oil will get more expensive and the power companies will charge more.. this is not a blip like the 70's. Any solution that makes it so you aren't dependent on the power company will be a good one.. a $200 a month payment now will seem laughable when the power company starts charging $700 a month.
I admit that these systems are not ready to take over but they are a lot further along than you are admitting and they work right now.. it is inevitable that they will get cheaper and better.
lazs
-
Oh... and I am not for any subsidy that the PUC would give out. I want only that the power company buy back power at a reasonable rate and sell it back to me at a reasonable rate. If they think that it is worth encouraging me to install such a system then so be it. It should not cost any ratepayer tho.
I am fortunate that I am handy.. I have built homes and a system like these would not be difficult for me to install myself.. as such.. when I move to the country I will use some of my profit from here to make myself independent of the power company. I will pay the cost myself. I will not be affected buy the rising cost of power. I will have a septic and a well to further get away from public utilities.
they can add or subtract all the fees and taxes and whatever to utilities they want. I won't be playing the game. There are enough like me that the demand will fuel research and the systems will get better.. I don't think we need subsidies to make it better and I think that they most often hurt real progress..
Like I said.. give out subsidies and only the junk gets built... the real good stuff can't compete with the carpetbaggers. All the junk solar water heater roof installations are now history as an example. The good systems are still in working order and new and better systems drew on their work.
lazs
-
and... sheesh.. 3 posts in a row? oh well... I think it important to answer your question on subsidies and how I feel about em.
first and foremost.. I believe that we should all take every tax break that we can legally take. I believe that 99.9999% of every dollar I spend in taxes is immoral.
If they gave out a subsidy for me being green eyed I would take it.
I believe that if they want to reduce my state and local and federal taxes because I have a solar system... that is great... if it increases everyone else's taxes then... so what? not my problem.. I am not going to participate just to share the suffering.
I could say that I am worth it because I am "helping the environment" but that would not be true.. I think that, like taxes themselves.. the environmental movement is a huge scam.
I will gladly take any reduction in my taxes that I can legally take.. I would suggest that everyone do the same.
If this somehow made the government socialist programs go broke.. that would make me even happier but my real reason is to simply try to keep them from stealing as much of my money as I can.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
To get hydrogen from water, you have to put in enough energy to break the hydrogen-oxygen bonds. When you burn oxygen and hydrogen, you get the same amount of energy released, if both reactions are 100% efficient.
They may, one day, approach 100% efficiency. They cannot, ever, exceed 100% efficiency.
You will never, ever, get more energy out of hydrogen you have produced from water than you used to produce it.
Which may prove a useful source of energy one day. I'm not arguing that hydrogen can't be used, just pointing out that producing hydrogen from water requires more energy than it produces, and therefore cannot be an energy source.
Actually, I don't believe your assertion that it requires as much energy to break H2O down into H2 and O as the two produce when burned.
Need to see some reliable references on this.
TIGERESS
-
Actually, I don't believe your assertion that it requires as much energy to break H2O down into H2 and O as the two produce when burned.
Need to see some reliable references on this.
Okay.
You realize, of course, that
the amount of energy required to separate hydrogen from oxygen is exactly
the same as the amount of energy released when they recombine
The first problem you will run into here is conservation of
energy. If it takes X joules of energy to split the water into H2 and O2,
then the most energy you can get back out of the H2 and O2 when you
recombine them in an engine is X Joules.
Both from http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99022.htm
If you could get more energy out of reacting the hydrogen and oxygen than it took to produce them, then you would violate the first law of thermodynamics. You would see a net increase in the energy of a closed system.
You would also have a perpetual motion machine.
That doesn't mean hydrogen won't be an effective fuel in the future. There's a lot of research going on in to hydrogen production. For example, it might turn out to be more efficient to produce hydrogen from coal, and drive a car via a fuel cell, than to turn coal in to synthetic petrol/diesel that can drive an engine. It might prove cost effective to use thermal solar power to produce hydrogen from water (in which case the energy is being provided from the sun)
But the chances of physics being founded on a false premise, the chances of being able to repeatedly combine/disassociate hydrogen and oxygen and receive a net energy output each time, are zero, at least as far as current scientific theory and observation are concerned.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
(http://lost.rapnix.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/WindowsLiveWriter/Hydra_FEB0/hydra%5B3%5D.png)
Bush has been dictating to our allies... and it's upsetting the status quo a great deal, imo.
The US didn't do that in WWII. The Muslim extremists are empowered by it, imo.
The art of politics is really the art of negotiation and compromise, isn't it?
I have seldom seen such strong armed international tactics as has been used since 911 and it's distancing the USA from her friends, imo.
Understand, I am not a socialist by any means...
When I said I am disappointed and it's time for a correction in the political balance of power in the US, it's because I expected better than this from Geo. W. Bush & Co.
I am a Moderate and I voted for him, twice... the country had gone too far to the left, imo.
Father knows best only when Father knows best...
After the last 16 years... I am beginning to think a single 5 year presidential term might fix this problem.
...and term limits on congress.
We are not fighting a country, imo... we are defensively fighting a Religion... Islam, which is still in the Middle Ages.
In my opinion, that isn't fixed with bullets... that just strengthens Islamic Extremists' power.
It's like the Hydra. Cut off one snake head and two grow back to replace it.
IMO, they want us to shoot them for just that reason.
It galvanizes their support amongst the world's population of Islamists the numbers of which are estimated to be between One Billion and One Billion Eight Hundred Million... WORLD WIDE.
Thus, their power to hurt us grows bigger by the day.
(http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/IslamicHolyWar.jpg)
I think we are getting suckered in and falling back on WWII tactics and strategies to deal with it and it's backfiring.
It's a solution that only deals with symptoms and not the root problem.
In my opinion, Geo. W. Bush & Co has been playing right into Islamic Extremists' hands and has been trying to force our international friends to go along with him thus forcing our Allies to play into their hands as well.
Our Allies, appear to me, to be backing off from us because it isn't working.
What do you think?
TIGERESS
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
To think some folks believe Bush all alone can move mountains. Absolutely incredible......
-
Originally posted by Shuffler
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
To think some folks believe Bush all alone can move mountains. Absolutely incredible......
Bush is the President... meaning simply a figure head; a puppet... the real power in control is the power base good ole boys within the republican party plus the good ole boys in key industries like the oil boys.
I predict they are going to get their collective butts handed to them again in the elections next year like they did last year cause they got it wrong.
I also predict Clinton (who actually has an IQ over 100 unlike Bush, imv) will be elected President, thanks to Geo. W Bush & Co's screw-ups and trying to turn this country into something it is not and doesn't collectively want to be...
The "& Co" part is the current real power in contol, IMV.
TIGERESS
-
. you claim it was the miniturizing that caused the breakthrough which is fine but.. the same with solar.. you are not seriously saying that a 4 x 8 panel puts out the same power now as 20 years ago.
Sadly, yes. The commonly used solar panels now put out almost exactly the same power now as they did 30 years ago, by size.
There are different technologies available, cheaper less efficient cells, and more expensive higher efficiency cells. But for power production where size and weight aren't an issue, the solar panels used now have the same efficiency as they did back in the 70s.
focused mirrors are coming on the horizon they will cut cost and size.
They've been in use for years. They don't actually make much difference, though, because maintenance costs tend to be higher.
Solar is not a new technology. As you say, computers have because thousands of times more powerful since the 70s. Solar cells are still pretty much unchanged. The increase in volume has driven prices substantially lower, but they still cost far more than burning coal or gas, or even oil.
As the head of PGE said in a recent interview:
"Traditionally, the problem with solar is the cost of solar has been about 30 to 40 cents per kilowatt hour. So it's been a great technology when one thinks about the environment, but it's like three times as expensive."
most of what you say proves my point tho.. the old article talks of it being impossible to buy the power.. the adjustments were made. it is being bought back at a decent rate. for all.
It didn't say it was impossible, it said that the amount the power company were required to buy at well above market rates had been reached. The government subsequently required the power company to buy more, still at well above market rate.
I think subsidies will be increased again in 2008, as domestic solar seems to be unattractive at the subsidy levels soon to come in.
why is it that the power companies ask to have devices put on your meter (not where you live maybe but here in the US) that cut your power during peak useage.. they pay for that.
Because it helps manage demand. Because it means they don't have to have excess capacity in the case of an emergency. Building an extra power station to provide for perhaps 1 hour a month when demand exceeds capacity is wasteful. If you can instead persuade some customers to cut back slightly during that hour, you get away with having less capacity, but sell the same amount of power 99.9% of the time.
Paying people to install solar panels is not the same thing at all. That's like building another power station, the capacity is there whether you need it or not. Only in this case it's worse than building another power station, because solar costs so much more.
The systems work. I know people with em. Do you? have you ever seen one?
Yes, of course. I have one on my boat to keep the battery topped up. I have one on my watch, which means I never have to change the battery. They have a very big installation on a supermarket I go to. On a sunny day it sometimes generates 40+ kw, which would be impressive if that didn't mean £4 an hour, and the installation hadn't cost £2 million.
I know they work, you could even replace all other power generation with them. I am just pointing out that the power they generate costs about 3 times as much as from conventional sources (in California. In less sunny places its even more). The only reason people fit them to their houses is because of subsidies, paid for by other consumers and taxpayers.
as for it being a subsidy... I don't know if this really applies.. the power company is using less coal and gas to run
Here's the problem. It costs the power company about 4.5c to buy a kw/h off a normal power station. They then transmit that power through their grid, and sell it to consumers at 14.5c a kw/h. They make 10c per kw/h, which they use to maintain the grid and make a profit.
With solar, the equation is a bit different. There are two schemes, one where the power company subsidises the install, one where it doesn't.
Scheme A: the power company pays the homeowner $2.5 a watt to install the solar panels, which equals $2500 per KW. But because the panels only generate power for some of the day, they generate about 5 kw/h per day per $2500. A typical medium sized power station generates about 1,000,000 kw, or about 20,000,000 kw/h a day. To generate that much with domestic solar panels therefore costs the power company about $10 billion.
Now the power company can buy power from an external company for about 4.5c per kw/h, and they don't have to build a power station. But they not only have to pay the large up front subsidy to solar owners, they have to buy the power generated at retail price, 14.5c per kw/h.
So to replace 1 conventional power station with solar would cost the power company $10 billion up front, and they'd have to pay 10c more per kw/h generated.
Scheme B is different. The power company don't have to pay to install the panels. However, they have to pay 39c per kw/h generated, when they can buy power from conventional sources for 3.5c. And they have to take that electricity they have paid 39c for, transmit it through their network, and sell it for 14.5c.
Sound like a good business decision to you? Buy at 39c, transport, sell at 14.5c?
If the power companies wanted to do this, why did they only start doing it after the government had ordered them to? Why do they all pay exactly the subsidy the government has mandated, why not pay a little bit more to get even more people generating their own power? Why did they say:
"There should be a recognition that the net energy metering program is a subsidy that is paid for by other PG&E customers,"
please link me to where the cost of installations of systems has increased. on a per watt basis.
The installation community, reacting to PV module and other real cost
increases, have steadily increased the installed cost per watt. Despite the views of some industry
pundits, there is no evidence of excessive profit taking. The fact is, that despite the vision of
declining costs, consumers have seen ever increasing costs, since the first quarter of 2003.
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/assets/documents/2007/CSI_SUNCENTRIC_REPORT.pdf
In any case.. unless you think solar is a dead end.. that the panels and systems currently in use on homes are the best and the cheapest they will ever get.
No, quite the opposite. I think sooner or later the price of solar will drop considerably. But that isn't going to happen with the current technology, which is pretty mature. It's going to happen with new technology, and it might take 5 years, it might take 50.
And when that new technology does come along, you will be much better off if you invested your money, rather than buying a current inefficient solar system. The wise person who invested their money will have paid their electricity bills with part of the interest they earned, and will still have their lump sum to buy the new technology that will generate far greater amounts of power at lower cost.
In other words, spending money now on a very expensive way of generating electricity is stupid when there are already cheaper ways available, and will be much cheaper ways available in the future.
At worst.. the subsidies will cause the same problems that solar hot water had where all kinds of junk got put up and for a decade or two.. made worse by power becoming cheaper.
Exactly. Solar power at the moment is simply a waste of money. It might be someone else's money you are wasting, but it's still a waste. If you are forcing people to pay more for electricity, then why not do something useful with the money raised, rather than buy hardware that does the same job as a coal power station, at greatly increased cost.
Who does that benefit?
one thing is certain, and, I can't believe you are so short sighted on this... oil will get more expensive and the power companies will charge more..
Oil will probably become more expensive, but I expect electricity prices to fall in real terms, excluding taxes and subsidies.
I admit that these systems are not ready to take over but they are a lot further along than you are admitting and they work right now.. it is inevitable that they will get cheaper and better.
Sadly, it's not. The current technology of solar power is fairly mature. There are not going to be major price drops until a new breakthrough is made, and no one can predict when a breakthrough will be made.
I am fortunate that I am handy.. I have built homes and a system like these would not be difficult for me to install myself.. as such.. when I move to the country I will use some of my profit from here to make myself independent of the power company. I will pay the cost myself. I will not be affected buy the rising cost of power. I will have a septic and a well to further get away from public utilities.
If you are some distance from the grid then solar can actually make sense, as in some cases you can install solar for less than the cost of extending power lines to your property.
You will still end up paying more for your electricity, but you have the advantage of seclusion.
I don't think we need subsidies to make it better and I think that they most often hurt real progress..
Which is what I've been saying all along. Subsidising solar power now, when it is uneconomic, is not worthwhile for anyone, apart from those milking the subsidies.
-
you need to update your photovoltaic files, they are out of date.
-
nashwan.. I don't think we are that far off from each other.
key points we agree... subsidies that are not mutually benificial are evil.
cost is somewhat higher than it is worth at this point. (conditional if you have an electric vehicle you can charge for free and.. on the rising cost of energy either of which change the equation)
cost will come down and systems be simpler in some time between 5 years and 50 years from now.
Points we don't agree..
That a tax incentive is not a good thing. you think it burdens other taxpayers and I think that a tax incentive... any tax incentive.. any reduction in anyones tax is a good thing. I am all for every tax incentive that anyone can think up. In this case.. even the socialists can't whine because.. it ostensibly fits in with their ideals..it helps everyone.. that may be where you have me confused with a socialist but my reasons are the former and not the latter.
It is not worth it to the power companies to buy power from residentials.
I don't agree.. the highest cost and biggest nighmare for maintenance is residential. the brownouts and blackouts are because power is extremely difficult (and getting more so) to funnel into homes. the reasons they have incentive to interupt your power is (as you say) they simply can't meet peak demand. if they don't have such a peak demand... (it is allways in the daytime during solars best times) then they do not have to struggle so hard and have such overcapacity.
It is not worth it.. other investments would return more.
I conditionally agree to this so long as everything stays static.. if a person does not have an electric/hybid/hydrogen electrical station/ car and oil stays cheap and plentiful at todays rates or lower.
I believe that the best investments get you about 7% I have a feeling that energy costs to people will rise at a worse rate than that if you include fuel for vehicles. I also factor in a personal number.. if a person lives out in the country and wants to bring power to his property the cost will run from $15,000 to $50,000 just to bring the power out to the property. I also say that more and more "fees" will be attached to everyones power bill... environmental and every other hair brained tax the tax money desperate socialists can think of.
I would say that.. if we think ahead and see how much power and regulation and fees will cost us... solar is a good investment in most of this country. If you factor in federal and state rebates in the form of tax incentives.. it becomes more so... if you can take some of most of the cost of getting around out of your budget (electric converted to vehicle hybrid/electric/hydrogen charging station/) then it becomes more attractive.
even more so.. for those fed up with regulation and people in general who want to live more out of the way... it is an option that is fast becoming more attractive and practical.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Bush is the President... meaning simply a figure head; a puppet... the real power in control is the power base good ole boys within the republican party plus the good ole boys in key industries like the oil boys.
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law: but the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments.
The President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.
You want to change the way things are, start making congress change.
I also predict Clinton (who actually has an IQ over 100 unlike Bush, imv) will be elected President, thanks to Geo. W Bush & Co's screw-ups and trying to turn this country into something it is not and doesn't collectively want to be...
The "& Co" part is the current real power in contol, IMV.
TIGERESS
snopes on presidential IQ (http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.asp)
-
My view of Bush's low IQ is my opinion based on observation. I voted for him, twice... hahahaha so much for my IQ! :rofl
Bush had a same party congress for the majority of his term.
Like I said... the power base on the right had control... of both the legislative branch and the adminstrative branch and made their dent into the judicial branch as much as they could.
Had they had it right, they could have made some real progress in improving the state of the union.
I, for one, had higher hopes and am disappointed. Now, imo, the backlash is going to swing.
I would much rather see a balanced and stablized two party system in action working together as Americans with a common goal of improving America for everyone instead of these hard left/right swings.
What I find ironic... I like the idea of a smaller federal government, something the right used to stand for... I am seeing the federal government instead being inflated bigger and bigger... and in ways I thought and hoped I would never live to see.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Bush had a same party congress for the majority of his term.
Like I said... the power base on the right had control... of both the legislative branch and the adminstrative branch and made their dent into the judicial branch as much as they could.
Whether we have Republicans or Democrats in control of congress means nothing. We need to change congress if we want a better country. If we keep voting out 98% of the house and 33% of the senate each bienniem, we would eventually get people who put the country before party.
-
That snopes link you posted Holden listed Clinton's IQ as the highest at 182. This of someone who doesn't even know what sex or "is" is, snicker.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
That snopes link you posted Holden listed Clinton's IQ as the highest at 182. This of someone who doesn't even know what sex or "is" is, snicker.
It also says the list is false.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It also says the list is false.
Indeed and I certainly looked for that right off. Someone wrote it though and even as a joke there are probably many that believe it nonetheless.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Indeed and I certainly looked for that right off. Someone wrote it though and even as a joke there are probably many that believe it nonetheless.
Indeed.
High IQ, does not, an outstanding president, make.
Carter was an example of that. Brilliant man; poor president.
I don't think Reagon was brilliant but what an outstanding president he made.
TIGERESS
-
I think we have pretty much explored item number 0 on the below list for the time being. It was the first item Lazs choose to discuss and explore.
Shall we discuss another item on the list or add a new item?
TIGERESS
Originally posted by Tigeress
I have only come up with a few ideas...
I am not so bold as to pronounce them as a solution, rather ideas for discussion on solution.
So everyone feel totally free to shoot as many holes in them as you possibly can. Simple dismissal is not a discussion.
Timetable: 7-10 years
0. Kick-start a full swing to Liquid Hydrogen as our primary fuel source to replace oil as much as possible.
1. Establish an international agreement by the G-7 nations declaring the Present Islamic Religion as a common threat to Humanity and kick Russia off the G-8.
2. Force the non-violent Islamic majority to fess up about the Quran and change their religion and if they don't then label them as enemies of Humanity and treat them accordingly. Make them do it, they know all about submission and domination.
3. Force China and Russia to back off from supporting rogue nations through the use of incrementally staged and serious economic sanctions.
4. Keep fighting the ground and air war as we have been.
5. Full G-7 boycott of Iran, Syria. Set a blockade on both; shoot anything that goes in or out.
6. After Iran and Syria are internationally declared Regimes of Islamic Threats to Humanity, invoke the draft and go to full time state of war. Go for the throat.
7. Watch Saudi Arabia team up with Iran. I suspect Saudi Arabia is playing both sides of the street while it is in its interests to do so.
8. Threaten to wipe out all Islamic Religous sites if the old Islam ever shows it face again. Hollow threats are useless.
If we were not so gluttonous about the easy money of oil, these people would not have a dime to their names to do much of anything. But they now have money and lots of it and presently can screw our economy with their oil.
Like I said… the real solution, if it’s anything like the above, will be a bitter pill at best.
TIGERESS
-
Insight as to different strains of OPEC member goals relative to the US during the recent OPEC meeting.
The key item that loomed up at me was this: "You have the anti-US crowd and the neutral crowd."
Notice that Saudi Arabia was not "pro-US" but was instead, "nutural."
Something else interesting was lost OPEC revenues due to devaluation of the dollar.
TIGERESS
from --> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071117/wl_mideast_afp/oilopecsummit7thleadwrap_071117220246
TIGERESS
Chavez starts OPEC summit with 200-dollar oil warning by Adam Plowright
Sat Nov 17, 5:08 PM ET
RIYADH (AFP) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez opened an OPEC summit on Saturday with a chilling warning about 200-dollar oil if the United States attacks Iran in a speech that also urged the cartel to be more political.
ADVERTISEMENT
But internal divisions about the role of the oil exporters' group were highlighted when King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, OPEC kingpin and key US regional ally, sounded a moderate note, saying oil "must not become an instrument for conflict."
Chavez, a fiery leftist and fiercely anti-US leader, warned that crude prices could double from their current already-record level of near 100 dollars a barrel if Washington attacked Iran or launched action against Venezuela.
"If the United States was mad enough to attack Iran or aggress Venezuela again the price of a barrel of oil won't just reach 100 dollars, but even 200 dollars," he said.
He also urged assembled leaders from the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, meeting for only the third time in the cartel's 47-year history, to club together for geopolitical reasons.
"Today OPEC stands strong. It is stronger than it has ever been in the past," he said. "OPEC should set itself up as an active geopolitical agent."
King Abdullah defended the aims of the cartel, which controls the output of its members to influence world crude prices, in a speech that was in stark contrast in content and style to the Venezuelan's.
"Those who say that OPEC is a monopolistic organisation are ignoring the fact that OPEC always behaves in a moderate and wise manner," he added.
He said proof of this was that current prices of near 100 dollars per barrel were lower than the prices of the 1980s when inflation was taken into account.
OPEC's membership is dominated by pro-Western Gulf states but includes an anti-US bloc of Iran and Venezuela.
The group has a history of using its oil exports as a political weapon -- members ceased exports in 1973 in protest at Israel's invasion of Syria -- but nowadays Saudi Arabia likes to stress the purely economic and technical agenda of the group.
The summit here is intended to map out the strategic direction of the OPEC, which produces about 40 percent of world oil, but the group is divided on a number of issues.
Another leftist ally of Chavez in South American, Ecuador, sealed its widely expected return to OPEC on Saturday, swelling the ranks of the group to 13.
Chavez -- who opened the summit because he hosted the last OPEC gathering in Caracas in 2000 -- made a series of blistering attacks on the United States and also posited that oil was the source of all conflict.
"The basis of all aggression is oil. It is the underlying reason," Chavez said, pointing to the war in Iraq and US threats against Iran because of the Islamic republic's disputed nuclear programme.
The event comes at a time of tension on world oil markets, with the cartel under pressure to increase its output to help calm record crude prices that had threatened to breach 100 dollars a barrel 10 days ago.
"Managing OPEC politics growing forward is going to be increasingly difficult so long as antagonism between Iran and Venezuela and the US continues," said an analyst from US-based oil brokerage SIG, Yasser Elguindi, before Chavez's speech.
"You have the anti-US crowd and the neutral crowd."
King Abdullah also announced that Saudi Arabia, the world's biggest oil producer, was to invest 300 million dollars (200 million euros) to develop technology to tackle climate change.
In a gaffe late on Friday, a private meeting of OPEC oil, foreign and finance ministers was mistakenly broadcast to journalists, which revealed other differences at the heart of the organisation.
The footage showed Iran pushing for a reference to the falling dollar in a final communique to be issued by leaders at the end of the summit, providing a rare glimpse of the inner workings of the organisation.
Journalists witnessed Saudi Arabia reject the idea courtesy of a television in the media room that mistakenly had a live feed of the meeting.
The eavesdropping ended when a furious official emerged to switch off the broadcast.
The fall of the dollar, which has declined by about 15 percent in 12 months, has affected the revenues of OPEC members because most of them price and sell their oil exports in the US currency.
-
tigress.. pick one and I will discuss it.
lazs
-
How aboutthis one, Lazs?
2. Force the non-violent Islamic majority to fess up about the Quran and change their religion and if they don't then label them as enemies of Humanity and treat them accordingly. Make them do it, they know all about submission and domination.
For what it's worth... seems I am not the only one who views the Quran as inspiring Islamic Treats to Humanity and compares it to Hitler's Mein Kampf...
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/28/europe/EU-GEN-Netherlands-Anti-Quran-Film.php#end_main
excerpt: "THE HAGUE, Netherlands: A Dutch conservative lawmaker said Wednesday he is making a film to highlight what he describes as "fascist" passages in the Quran, his latest high profile criticism of Islam.
The interior and justice ministers said they were concerned, but believed they had no authority to prevent the lawmaker, Geert Wilders, from screening his film.
Wilders plans to depict parts of the Quran he says are used as inspiration "by bad people to do bad things."
Less than 10 minutes long, the film is expected to air in late January. It will show "the intolerant and fascist character of the Quran," said Wilders, whose anti-Islam campaign helped his Freedom Party win nine seats in parliament in last year's election.
In the past, Wilders has said that half the Quran should be torn up and compared it with Adolf Hitler's book "Mein Kampf." He has claimed the Netherlands is being swamped by a "tsunami" of Islamic immigrants."
TIGERESS