Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: NHawk on October 20, 2007, 12:12:13 PM
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Ok, I'm in the market for a new monitor but I'm still very hesitant about shifting to LCD.
My old 17" CRT runs at a consistent 100fps with sliders full left and with vsync enabled. My biggest fear is the LCD being limited to 75fps which despite what some people say I can see a flicker on a CRT at that refresh rate.
IF I do go with LCD it will probably be either a Samsung 206BW with 2ms refresh or NEC ASLCD203WXM-BK with 5ms refresh 20" widescreens. Both have a 1680 x 1050 native resolution but the NEC has built in speakers that I'd have no use for.
Now the loaded questions....
How much clipping is there running AH in widescreen mode?
And your general opinions of LCD screens please? And the longer you've been here, the more weight your opinion will carry. :)
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NHAWK,
I was of the old philosophy of a good Pro IT 21" CRT was hard to beat when it comes to gaming, then I got tired of the heat that elephant radiated....
got me a 19" UltraSharp DELL LCD and have been pleasantly pleased with the performance , the vibrant colors, and all.
see no flickers, have no problems and am set to 70mhz refresh...
can switch the refresh rate depending on screen res used.......
1280 x 1024 or 1600 x 1200 are the best screen res in my opinion
uses less power, more room, a 19" LCD is basically same screen size as a 21" CRT Flat Screen. no more heated flights :)
look for a good high contrast ratio and refresh rate sub 8ms's ( lower is better )
take note : some LCDs have low lighting vs others at default factory settings
also make sure you load the Monitors drivers instead of using plug & play default monitor driver, to extend the life of the monitor......
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Originally posted by NHawk
Ok, I'm in the market for a new monitor but I'm still very hesitant about shifting to LCD.
My old 17" CRT runs at a consistent 100fps with sliders full left and with vsync enabled. My biggest fear is the LCD being limited to 75fps which despite what some people say I can see a flicker on a CRT at that refresh rate.
IF I do go with LCD it will probably be either a Samsung 206BW with 2ms refresh or NEC ASLCD203WXM-BK with 5ms refresh 20" widescreens. Both have a 1680 x 1050 native resolution but the NEC has built in speakers that I'd have no use for.
Now the loaded questions....
How much clipping is there running AH in widescreen mode?
And your general opinions of LCD screens please? And the longer you've been here, the more weight your opinion will carry. :)
I have a 20.1" Viewsonic that is the same native res, but is 60hz. I'll gurantee you can't see a flicker at even 60fps.
I made the mistake of getting my LCD with speakers on it. I'd recommend getting one that doesn't. They are always low quality and mine are very soft. I generally use my Sennheiser headphones 80% of the time and figured the built-in speakers would save me some desk space compared to my other computer speakers. I still have my old computer speakers still hooked up. I know people personally who have the Samsung 206BW and are very pleased with it, and I can say it looks really good too.
As for clipping...I think in another thread we figured out that its about 100 pixels or so on the top and bottom that is cut off. It annoying sometimes for gauges in AH, but in other games (and just windows in general)that support widescreen monitors, its sooo nice.
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One thing to keep in mind, even with a lower refresh rate, LCD's aren't going to flicker in the way that CRT's used to. Why? Because they simply work differently.
When a pixel lights up or gets redrawn on a CRT, it's an almost instantaneous change, whereas on an LCD it's more of a gradual type of thing, which is where response time comes in to play, and why response time isn't even a specification on CRT's.
Think of it this way. A CRT is like a stoplight. At the exact same time the red light turns off and the green light comes on. LCD is different... the red light would fade away as the green light fades in. It's a more gradual process, hence no flickering.
Response time, in a nutshell, is how long it takes the pixel to "change"... faster = better but even at 2ms it's still a lot slower than CRT's, which is why LCD's have such a bad gaming reputation... but it's being figured out that you simply don't need a zero response time to get clear, sharp graphics on a monitor.
If you've ever used any first generation LCD screens (such as the old, old laptops.. black/white screens) it would have so much streaking in the graphics it was nearly impossible to play even the simplest of games... but technology has come a long, long way since then!
I have a HANNS-G HN199D 19" standard LCD... 8ms response.. and yes with crappy speakers!... but even 8ms is more than enough for good AH play. The bright, clear display more than makes up for the speed. The only time I notice any streaking at all is in a tank, fully zoomed in while scanning the horizon quickly.. but even that I've gotten used to. I'd imagine a 2ms, or maybe even a 5ms would more than enough correct that issue.
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If you read some reviews on LCDs, you'll find that when the reviewer actually tests the response time they find that some companies are fudging the numbers a bit. Some 5ms LCDs tested 20ms+. Can't remember which article it was, but it was on tomshardware.com probably about a year ago.
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I'm typing this reading a Samsung 226BW and you can't go wrong with this one. LCD:s do _not_ flicker. I'm ultra sensitive to CRT flicker and 60hz on this 226BW is like a dream.
Get a good price: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001096&CMP=AFC-Hardocp&ATT=N82E16824001096
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I'm running a Hanns-G HW-223DPB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254020) and it looks great as compared to my Sony G500 21" Flat CRT Trinitron which it replaced. I was very worried about response time and how crisp/bright the picture would be, but have been nothing but happy with the change. The Hanns-G was so bright at the factory settings, I had to turn down the brightness. One thing you may want to consider is HDCP support, which you will want to have if you ever plan on playing high def content over DVI from an HDCP-enabled source. Your vid card would need to do HDCP too. Mine doesn't, but that wasn't important to me.
I wish AH would support a widescreen res without the clipping, but even so, it's not too horrible. For most planes, I move my head back to regain a view of some of the lower part of the dash if the ammo counter or something else important is obscured.
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Screen refresh rates shouldn't be a problem. LCDs don't flicker. I have always seen some stuttering when games drop below about 45 fps, but screen refresh rates have little to do with that.
What you need to be concerned with when going from a CRT to an LCD are things like color depth (6 bit panels vs. 8 bit panels) and color streaks caused by slow pixel response times. The better color panels tend to have slower response times which causes streaking (on my dell 1905FP I get streaking in AH only with red icons, nothing else) and the faster TN panels tend to have worse image viewing angles and color accuracy.
The screens that are both fast and accurate are pretty darn expensive, and they don't seem to come in 20-22" sizes either.
For gaming, get the fastest response time panel you can find. If you do image editing though, you need to do some research and find a screen with the right kind of panel technology so you get the full range of colors.
As for widescreen gaming with AH... I'm pretty sure HTC is aware of the clipping issue. I have no idea if they can fix it or how high that is on their priority list, but they are aware of it. For now though, an old-style 4:3 aspect ratio monitor is your best bet since AH was designed to look good on those monitors.
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I bought a Panasonic 22" monitor for around $325, new, from TigerDirect, about a year ago. It has a 5 ms response time. I love it. I run in 1400X (something or other), I'm at work and don't remember what the other is. It clips top and bottom but not enough to bother me. It runs at 60hz and there is no streaking or flicker evident to me. I don't remember the model either, sorry. I also run it in analog mode, that gives me more options than with the specialized cable that came with it and digital mode.
Mark
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This (http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=AA51200) is hard to beat with any crt.
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Originally posted by Chalenge
This (http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=AA51200) is hard to beat with any crt.
That's pretty cheap for a 42". But I'd not buy one without a direct comparison with a $3000 model side by side. You'd be surprised how big the difference can be.
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Thanks for all of the input. With all of this information on response times, etc. I'll be going with the 206BW (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001095)
MrRipley...the 206 looks to be the little brother of the 226. It matches line for line in specs but size is an issue where it's going and that extra inch in height eliminates the 226.
Challenge...Nice try. But trying to put that one by my wife would be impossible. :)
Edit: I forgot to say that if by some chance I see flashing, or streaking or any other minor inconvenience I can use for an excuse. I WILL hunt down everyone who replied and rubber stamp "I was wrong" on your foreheads. :)
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I have a flatron by LG with pretty much the same specs. I use the digital inputs and have never seen any flicker or streaking, or bleeding. Mines not a wide screen, so I have no "clipping" issues. Best thing I ever did was to grab this one. I went from a 21 CRT to this, and I'll never look back !
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Originally posted by NHawk
Thanks for all of the input. With all of this information on response times, etc. I'll be going with the 206BW (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001095)
If you video card has HDMI (digital) output and your monitor only comes with a analog cable, pick a HDMI cable up on Newegg for $10 (dont pay $50 at Best Buy). Otherwise, if your video card doesn't have and HDMI output, don't bother buying the an HDMI cable.
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Originally posted by Fulmar
If you read some reviews on LCDs, you'll find that when the reviewer actually tests the response time they find that some companies are fudging the numbers a bit. Some 5ms LCDs tested 20ms+. Can't remember which article it was, but it was on tomshardware.com probably about a year ago.
Meh want the best response times... go OLED :D
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Here's two screenshots comparing normal CRT and Widescreen size P-51 cockpits. The last two are the same pictures scaled down so you can see them on your screen better. Note that the two shots were taken on different sized fields, so the hangers and stuff in the background aren't good references. Sorry.
CRT (Full Size) (http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff255/OOZ662/P51CRT.jpg)
LCD (Full Size) (http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff255/OOZ662/P51LCD.jpg)
CRT (50% Size) (http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff255/OOZ662/P51CRTsmall.jpg)
LCD (50% Size) (http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff255/OOZ662/P51LCDsmall.jpg)
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Fulmar - No HDMI but there is DVI. I convert DVI to D-Sub now so I'll just remove the adapter and run DVI to the new LCD monitor.
OOZ - Thanks, those screen shots help alot. There really isn't much clipping.
The way I'm looking at this is if the LCD doesn't meet my expectations I'll just relegate it to a different computer and go back to my CRT until I find something I really like.
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The monitor got here yesterday. And there is a definite difference.
First I had to cut the brightness WAY down. I felt like I was looking at the sun when I first turned it on. This is probably going to be tinkered with for a while.
The monitor can refesh up to 75hz but I've yet to figure out how to set it there. The only option shown is 60hz in advanced settings. I think it may have something to do with DVI. I may try switching to the D-Sub just for the heck of it.
The only problem I'm having is getting some fonts to look right. Don't get me wrong, they aren't unreadable they just don't look quite right to me.
In AH, a rock solid 60fps at 1680x1050 no matter what. No flicker, no blurr at all. Everything is smooth as silk. And the clipping isn't a factor in the planes I've flown so far.
There's an added side benefit that I didn't expect. Cons seem to show up farther away than they did on my CRT. I complained about the visual distance changing in-game once and was told nothing changed. But, on my CRT I couldn't see them. Perhaps AH is being developed on LCD which might give different results than a CRT? Or the resolution is causing them to stand out more?
In AH the most annoying thing is the inability to change the font in the chat buffer. Text in there is huge compared to the other fonts in the game.
If AH is being developed on LCD I can definitely see why there was a huge outcry about how dark the terrain was a few releases ago. This LCD makes everything brighter and crisper than what I've seen on my CRT. Which in itself just blows my mind since I've been an avid CRT man as long as games have been around.
All in all, so far I give this monitor an A-. It only gets the minus because of the font problem.
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The font problem is not monitor related - it's purely software and settings.
And if I were you I'd forget about trying to up the refresh immediately since the monitor is designed to run at 60hz and it does not flicker.
Your image quality will degrate a lot if you switch to d-sub. With DVI-D you don't need to adjust your screen at all where through d-sub you have to fight with all the analog bs in the world (meaning you can have bad iq with wrong settings where dvi-d produces the best possible with no adjustments).
I made a huge mistake recently when I bought a HP display that only supported d-sub. I had to spend extensive time tweaking it before it's even half as clear as the fully digital version.
Next time I'll be sure to check the connections before I buy a monitor. I didn't imagine someone would build a LCD screen without a digital input. How wrong was I.
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Originally posted by NHawk
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The only problem I'm having is getting some fonts to look right. Don't get me wrong, they aren't unreadable they just don't look quite right to me.
Only problem with the fonts not looking right, is your use to looking at them on a crappy CRT :D
Welcome to the world Digital LCD !!!
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You know the saying.. once you go FLAT, you never go back!
haha... ok anyhow
Enjoy your new monitor!