Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Simaril on October 21, 2007, 06:20:11 PM
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On a really cold streak while I try to lift my game a notch, with nothing seeming to go right. Finally starting to film more regularly in hopes of finding some problems to address, and here are a couple I'd appreciate comments on.
First one is posted for gunnery help. Am I out of alignment? Is timing off, too little lead? I got some hits on the first pony, and he went down -- but I feel like I fired too soon. The second engagement was a 1v3, and I knew I had given the F4U a free pass...was hoping he would miss, or that my movement would deny his higher speed pass the angle. Obviously didnt work that way as I became a Type 1 Lighter. Appreciate thoughts about ACM decisions and guns.
gun film -- 2 pasted together (http://332nd.org/dogs/simaril/Gun%20and%20acm%20tip%20request.ahf)
Second film was a very tough engagement. Ended up 1v2 against superior planes with an energy and map position disadvantage. I stretched it out, but died to a very patient opponent. Could I have made better decisions? I used the same move each time, but wasnt sure what else to do with an opponent so near to my E, and who had a backup doing top cover.
defensive energy fight (http://332nd.org/dogs/simaril/fight%20critique.ahf)
As always, appreciate the help.
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looking st the top clip one time...best way to get initial impressions...
1) The single biggest mistake is your burying the con under your nose. your pulling lead very early and then more or less "freezing the nose". Ideally you want to pull the nose thru the shot as you fire...your pulling then fishing for the shot.
2) your getting in plane with the con early. You want to be out of plane. Look at your last shots on the pony to see what I mean...will look at 2nd clip later...
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Following up on the top clip I'd say your problems are "pre-gunnery". Your not positioning yourself well to make the shot. Almost every shot you posted was blind...
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Commenting on the 2nd...
Obviously anytime your outnumbered and neg E you have problems...
Having said that I dont like your opening split-S reverse to a uphill FQ shot. Your in plane and have no upside afterward. If you take damage your toast and your now defensive. I'd have low yoyo'd back and side stepped his nose down shot and gotten him under me....
Looking past that a couple thing stand out...
1st, for an experienced stick you've got your head in the cockpit way to much and that hurts both ACM and gunnery....
2nd, your evasives are....evasive. You dont really convert to offense. You go right back to defensive posture. If we look at the "chase scene" you've gotten out of dodge and have two cons..not good odds but better then you could have. I understand you had trees and were flying to the lower ground but I'd have reversed sooner. Once the pony is inside 800 your evading not reversing and the 190 is trailing far enough back he can pick you....
Which comes to #3....no evidience of a plan. IMO you died because you had no other option. Your only going to evade so long so you need to decide who your gonna kill and go for it.
I uploaded my last hop of today. Nothing but the "other side" of how I fly {I dont say I fly stupid for nothing:)}. For whatever reason I decided I wanted to shoot the 38...of course it didnt work out that way.
Pay attention to a couple of things.
My head is outside the plane as much as possible {and "F3" gives that a whole new meaning}. Once I've engaged "Stupid drive" and got myself in way to deep then the "pilot stuff" override kicks in when the F8 arrives.
Look at the "offensive evasive" on the F8 and the shot...see how easy the views are since I've got him in sight. Then look at the "evasives". Yes I'm avoiding stuff but I'm looking to pop guys as well. I just miss the lala. Also I'm never stable or level or "wallowing" and I dont look at the inside of my plane once. Basically I'm fighting the plane till it goes.
"stupd drive engaged captain" (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/someugly.ahf)
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Hmmm. I'm not sure i understand. And to be honest, I think most of my problems flying are conceptual, rather than stick precision. I often just don't know what to do.
At the time I reversed on the pony, I was just being aggressive and seeking to engage. I wasn't looking for a shot on the reversal, I was thinking about doing a lead turn immel. I thought that being below him on the merge was an advantage.
My lag roll reversal has never been smooth, and I'm usually late setting up the shot when they stay with me. But I'm not sure what else I could have done. And what do you mean by "keeping my head in the cockpit'? The views are pretty tough in the F4u-1 birdcage, but I thought I knew where those guys were right along. I'm wondering if the film viewer is missing the blackouts I had to take to get inside his turn since the Pony's speed was so close to mine.
Not sure what being out of plane does for me in the attack, either. I thought I wanted to be in plane for shots, since that keeps the plane from flying safely through the "V" of the convergence.
Feeling more like a newb every day.
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I was just watching your first film. And the thing that immediately sprang to my attention, especially in the second part, is that you don't look around often enough. You were flying a slow, fragile plane amidst a horde of red icons - you got to keep your head whirling all the time. Every time you did concentrate on a potential target, you forgot to scan the sky around you.
You were suffering some mild form of target fixation. When you were following the pony you even did ignore the F4U in front of you, heading directly towards you.
(Not that such things don't happen to me ;))
If you mentally "lock on" a plane, don't forget to continue scanning the sky.
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It's not easy to grasp some of this stuff. I still make mistakes ACM wise all the time compared to the "uber" guys. Wadke schooled me 3 or 4 in a row the other day...just makes you want to pull your hair out.
Everybody has various applications of theory. There is more then one right way. The key is to find the "school of flying" that works for you. Mine is simple I avoid that which kills me and seek that which kills them.
So....
From a position of advantage I seek to close the noose and give no breathing room I believe in the "smothering E attack" I try and stay in the semi verticals and use throttle and rudder and attack from above to the target and above.
On defense...
I trust in the semi verticals, basically "rolling scissors kung fu" If your on the defensive never flat, never to fast and never in plane. If he's close enough to kill you then he's close enough for you to kill. I want every shot on me taken under load and at unusual attitude. I want every shot you take to be my idea and not yours....
It works great....right up till it doesnt. Most of the time I die because i'm stupid or totally misjudge E state (leaving out the inevitiable SA lapses). I lose relatively few "even" one on ones in the MA (regardless of what i'm flying). The guys who kill me just beat the snot out of me most of the time regardless of what they're flying or what i'm in. I have relatively few guys I trade off with.
I think your starting point is here...
I was just being aggressive and seeking to engage. I wasn't looking for a shot on the reversal, I was thinking about doing a lead turn immel. I thought that being below him on the merge was an advantage
I always have a plan...now it doesnt always work...but I have one. I never just try and be "aggressive". If you have the advantage you need to be aggressive...if your defensive you need to be passive until you can act offensively.
I'd find a trainer you feel comfortable with and build a style that works for you. Any time you happen to see me up feel free to ride along for a hop or two.
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Snaphook has some good comments. I'll add a few of my own without repeating too much of what he's already stated.
Basics that helped me go from under 5% hits, to 10-15% without even really trying anymore-
1- Set your convergence close. I set mine at 275. (F4U)
2- Shoot planes at your convergence whenever possible. When the counter changes from 400 to 200, your at 299 yards. Aim and shoot, you'll be at 275 when you fire.
3- Aim small- miss small. Aim big- miss big. Pick a small target to hit, and even if you're off slightly, you'll still hit close enough to do the damage you want. Don't shoot at the plane, shoot at a part of it. Aim at the plane, and miss slightly, you've missed the plane. Aim at the cockpit and miss slightly, hit the wing, or the engine, or the tail, etc...
4- Shoot (practice) alot. Don't worry so much about actual hit % yet, that will improve on it's own. Worry about hitting your target. I don't subscribe to the "less is more" theory, where a limited ammo plane like a yak is recommended to "force" you into aiming. How do basketball players get better at free-throws? By shooting A LOT of baskets, or by trying real hard to score with just a few practice throws? Repetition is key. Shoot alot. Do that by taking a plane with a lot of ammo. I recommend a pony, or F4U, or Jug. Shoot alot, but don't just randomly spray. (Lots of QUALITY practice). AIM! Watch for results. Make corrections mentally, and try again. Lead needs to be "felt". It changes way too much to be able to describe where to aim. One hint though- if you miss due to incorrect lead, you'll almost always be missing behind him. It takes more lead than most realize, especially on those crossing shots.
You mention lead (too much? not enough?) Who knows?? You can't see the planes you're shooting at, so how can you judge lead? I believe that's what Snaphook means by being out of plane. In film one, at 5 seconds in, and 35 seconds in, you're shooting blind. In both instances, I'd normally set up at an angle, and shoot more like you do at 1:03 or so (where you missed the KI84). I want to see the plane and watch his path cross my gunsight. If I need to bury him behind the instrument panel I will, but I want to do that for as brief a time as possible. Shooting blind makes it impossible to judge lead, because you're guessing about when and where to shoot, instead of "knowing". It's randomly successful, but is based more on luck, less on skill, so can't really be improved on. Once you get a better feel for lead you'll be able to make those shots too, but you'll do it because you've already learned where to shoot.
Ideally, I would even go to a lag pursuit mode at about 57 seconds for at least a little bit, to set up more behind the KI, and not take such a high deflection shot. Even if you don't get the shot initially, you may be in a better position for a better shot a little later. Personally, I'd rather have one good shot opportunity than 5 "iffy" ones.
I didn't see the second film yet (slow dial-up).
MtnMan
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Originally posted by humble
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1st, for an experienced stick you've got your head in the cockpit way to much and that hurts both ACM and gunnery....
Snap, what do you mean my this comment?
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Thanks for the excellent tips. I'm going to watch the films again with your comments in mind, and see if I can wrap my head around this stuff. I can see already that keeping out of plane will make a BIG difference in gunnery.
(BTW -- For what its worth, I knew exactly where the F4U was and that he was swooping in to attack. I just decided not to care, and to hope for the best so I could try to take at least one of them out.)
Dave
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He seemed to be in the "front" view "flying the plane" thru alot of his manuevering (but not all the time). I'd like to see him "locked on" the bogie as much as possible...I think "lose the view, lose the fight" is a truism.
I think good gunnery is a by product of good tactics and ACM. From what I saw Sim is placing himself in tough positions to hit shots from. I've got another short clip from yesterday that shows "head out of the window" pretty well....
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seems to be some of the mistakes i am making in my gunnery. a lot of the time im firing blind over the cowling, mostly on tracking shots.
i dont really keep my head in the cockpit very badly, only when im target fixated. trying to get better at that.
i guess hth did teach me a few things and sa was one even though there was usualy only 4 guys to watch out for lol.
you know i never thought about rolling to keep the enemy in sight on a crossing shot, realized that usualy from the way im rolled they go under my nose on those shots, would inverting be good idea too?
what do you do when a guy just starts stick stiring everytime you get in range?
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Fugitive, maybe this helps show what I mean....
I get two very brief looks at the jug. On both I'm tracking him the entire time and getting myself in position for some type of snap shot. On the third I get slightly out of whack and end up having to bury the nose and he adjusts nicely and I miss....on the flip side you'll see he trys to set up 2 or 3 wing overs and since I dont lose him I can adjust (or in one case just push the nose down and scoot). So here I hit two snapshots and miss the "easy" shot entirely. From my perspective the 1st two shots were the product of my ACM. The 3rd was the by product of his interation with the other cons and change from engaging me to evading.
I've got my eyes on the jug almost the entire time which is what I mean by looking "out of the cockpit". As a side note Frenchy fought the jug all the way down engaged for at least a couple of minutes after that then got it down on the runway...was a very nice piece of defensive flying.
Looking out the window (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/film166.ahf)
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Originally posted by mtnman
I don't subscribe to the "less is more" theory, where a limited ammo plane like a yak is recommended to "force" you into aiming.
"Less is more" as you call it, is not for aiming per say. It's for as you described below. Forcing yourself to maneuver and craft an effective shooting opportunity, rather than just any shot.
Ideally, I would even go to a lag pursuit mode at about 57 seconds for at least a little bit, to set up more behind the KI, and not take such a high deflection shot. Even if you don't get the shot initially, you may be in a better position for a better shot a little later. Personally, I'd rather have one good shot opportunity than 5 "iffy" ones.
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Personally I would be hesitant to dissuade someone from practicing shooting on the blind. I kill too many planes with an empty windscreen and the only feedback on the quality of the shot being a victory message. It's not the prefered gun solution, but don't pass on the opportunity when there's no risk of overshooting afterwards.
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Murdr...
I dont disagree with you at all on that one, sometimes its the only shot your going to get. But if you get your nose out infront and then "freeze" it you've got little chance to score enough to get a kill. If you've got a lag position and you need to bury the target to pull lead thats a bit different then transitioning to lead early then waiting on the shot.
My thoughts to sim's question is that his issue really is in the "pre-shot" and not the shot itself....he's just not putting himself in decent positions IMO.
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Originally posted by humble
My thoughts to sim's question is that his issue really is in the "pre-shot" and not the shot itself....he's just not putting himself in decent positions IMO.
Agreed
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ok..in the first film......i'm not to much on gunnery, and didnt see any tracers, so i can't offer any advice on lead......but..........i'm thinking that in a fragile plane like the zeke, i'd have stayed high, as i saw quite a few cherry pickers in there....and they'd have been yours for the having when they came back up from their runs......but also, when i do get into situations like tht, most of my shots are quick shots as someon happens to fly through my sights.....or ones i set up like that.....i never stay on a single target too long..like more than a couple seconds, as that makes me easy kill(well....easier than normal).....
in the second film, you lasted longer than i would've.....but one thing i noticed, was on the initial merge with the pony.....you gave yourself a bit of an alt advantage..but then you went dowwn after him......i think ya might've done better to keep that alt and let him come back to you. his buddy in the fw flew a much smarter fight, as he was staying up high, waiting for you to make a mistake.....then it was about 2 minutes in, you did what looked like a right break-turn, and rolled out left.....the only thing with that move was that the bogie was far enough behind you that he was able to just climb and watch ya......i let them to less than 600 before rolling out.....that helps me be a bit more sure they're pullig way too hard to get a lead to either see me roll, or to follow me through it..or to do what he did and climb watch then dive back to ya.....then just after that, the fw dropped in to visit, and got a few rounds in ya.....and for some reason you followed him, when it looked like the pony might've been at a bit of a disadvantage,,,but following the fw gave the pony the fight....the only other thing, i'm not sure about......but isn't the corsair a good slow speed fighter? would you have fared better if you'd have lured them both into a low speed knife fight? it didn't seem as though you were gonnsa seperate them, as they were working together well.....but if you could've slowed them both down..........
none of this is meant as critisism, as i really am NOT that good....so thesse are kind of observsations AND questions.......
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john
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On the first film, you gunnery is not far off, you get mg hit sprites but not from the cannon, i think you need to adjust convergence setting for the cannon. What surprises me is that your SA is totally fubar. You are very fixated (view wise) on one enemy and don't pay any attention to the P51 making several passes at you (I viewed the films with the "use recorded views box checked)
Second film, you lost too much E on 3 spit S maneuvers in the beginning. Apart from the fact that both you and the P51 went for the HO on the first pass, the P51 dove down after the pass, you split S to him while the 190 is coming in high. You could have kept alt (going verticle) and point yourself towards the 190 to fight him first while the p51 was still low (again poor SA to split S towards the P51 down with a 190 coming in high and when you see the 190 coming split S again towards him while the P51 is climbing up).
Then on the chase of the P51 and 190 on you, by that time you know they will catch up on you, I would have fought it very aggressive from that point on, trying to make them overshoot and setup for a snapshot while they overshoot. I don't see that in your flying. First of you are evading the P51 but not rolling into his overshoot to get a shot in. Secondly your not paying attention to where the 190 is, you are to fixated with one con (at least I don't see you look back in the film). It was just a matter of time to get shot down.
Basically you need to work on SA and make maneuver choices accordingly.
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Snap! don't you fly anything other than that A20 ???? :D
Thanks Snap, I understand what your saying. Thanks again for the films, keep them coming!
Sim, not that my opinion really carries a lot of weight, but these are my comments on your films....
1. I agree that you were very fixated on your target. In those fights with the number of enemies around you should have spent more time checking the other than watching the one you were after. Snap says "Have a plan when you go into a fight" The trick is knowing when to dump plan A and switch to plan B. In a target rich area like you were in, chasing a bad situation to the exclution of all others isn't going to help.
2. You were too worried about "defending". I'd have made a pass or two to get them both in the same quadrant (Murdr's trick) they were both hungry enough to push for the fight. Once you got the both close to passing you giving you an "out", dive for the deck. Once they dive in, you have options...chop the throttle for the over shoot, keep the fight fast and low, anything but run. In the end they were going to catch you, fight them on YOUR terms, not what they try to force you into, make a plan and execute it !
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Simaril, next month we are having two training clinics on engaging multiple enemies. We've run these before and they go a long way to improving your SA, learning to judge E states and help you to develop the skills required to determine which enemy is the greatest threat. Most of Saxman's squad, as well at many of the 332nd Flying Mongrels have attended. Everyone improved, some dramatically so. Check the Trainer's calender for the dates and times.
First fight, You didn't have a good idea where the enemy fighters were, and as several mentioned, you were excessively focused on the P-51 that collided with you. Focus on the primary threat, deal with that and move on to the next threat. Winning a 3 on 1 begins with understanding which aircraft must be shot down first, or at least discouraged enough to break off. To kill all three, you have to kill one first. In most fights with two or enemies, the primary threat will frequently change. You need to be able to identify this and counter.
You performed a series of loops while the F4U was barreling in unseen, your flight path now completely predictable. Change angles, never be predictable. Know where everyone is, and recognize their E state.
You also snap-stalled the Zero, giving away a chance at the Mustang. Be smooth on stick input. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. This takes practice. That's why the clinics are so beneficial.
Second fight... You must be more aggressive. What you needed to do was equalize E states. Initially, you were 1,000 feet higher than the P-51. Moreover, you should have reversed into the P-51 much earlier (before the film started), trading that 1,000 feet for some additional speed (use WEP more, by the way). When you did reverse, you did so in a split-S with power pulled off. You gained little speed for the loss of altitude. That means you have NOT equalized E states as the E state is a combination of kinetic and potential energy. You increased kinetic energy only slightly at the expense of potential energy. E states remained unbalanced.
SA and E-management are the keys to defeating the BnZ, even with multiple bad guys.
Simaril, PM me and I'll send you links to several films with a couple of fellows who were working on wingman tactics. I was the rabbit, so to speak. You will notice that that when fighting two guys at once, you have to develop a sense of timing, recognizing when the threat changes. You may also notice that radical maneuvers are often not required. Doing no more than taking away an angle is often sufficient. Diving under the other guy's nose is often a great way to spoil what appeared to be a good opportunity. Watch from the fixed view with trails on. Use the sliders to change view angles.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Murdr
Personally I would be hesitant to dissuade someone from practicing shooting on the blind. I kill too many planes with an empty windscreen and the only feedback on the quality of the shot being a victory message. It's not the prefered gun solution, but don't pass on the opportunity when there's no risk of overshooting afterwards.
I'd agree with you here Murdr. Especially from a standpoint of "How do I survive / win more fights?" type question. Having the ability to hit those shots can be very important. Sometimes, especially when fighting multiple planes, hitting those blind shots can be a make or break situation. Practicing those shots is obviously the only way you'll improve on them.
From a standpoint of "how do I improve my gunnery?", or "How do I get my leads down better?" however, I would still recommend keeping a better view of your target, and minimizing the amount of time the target is in a blind spot. This type of question leads to improving your strategy for consistantly hitting your target. While hitting targets you can't see is possible, it isn't exactly a consistant method.
It does come down to a recommendation to position yourself better for a better shot. Being in a better position to make the shot, and being able to see the target in order to set up a proper lead will lend itself to more hits. Also, being in a better position often allows you to put a significant amount of hits on a target, rather than hoping for a lucky "golden BB" on a snapshot.
MtnMan
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Originally posted by Widewing
Simaril, next month we are having two training clinics on engaging multiple enemies. We've run these before and they go a long way to improving your SA, learning to judge E states and help you to develop the skills required to determine which enemy is the greatest threat. Most of Saxman's squad, as well at many of the 332nd Flying Mongrels have attended. Everyone improved, some dramatically so. Check the Trainer's calender for the dates and times.
First fight, You didn't have a good idea where the enemy fighters were, and as several mentioned, you were excessively focused on the P-51 that collided with you. Focus on the primary threat, deal with that and move on to the next threat. Winning a 3 on 1 begins with understanding which aircraft must be shot down first, or at least discouraged enough to break off. To kill all three, you have to kill one first. In most fights with two or enemies, the primary threat will frequently change. You need to be able to identify this and counter.
You performed a series of loops while the F4U was barreling in unseen, your flight path now completely predictable. Change angles, never be predictable. Know where everyone is, and recognize their E state.
You also snap-stalled the Zero, giving away a chance at the Mustang. Be smooth on stick input. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. This takes practice. That's why the clinics are so beneficial.
Second fight... You must be more aggressive. What you needed to do was equalize E states. Initially, you were 1,000 feet higher than the P-51. Moreover, you should have reversed into the P-51 much earlier (before the film started), trading that 1,000 feet for some additional speed (use WEP more, by the way). When you did reverse, you did so in a split-S with power pulled off. You gained little speed for the loss of altitude. That means you have NOT equalized E states as the E state is a combination of kinetic and potential energy. You increased kinetic energy only slightly at the expense of potential energy. E states remained unbalanced.
SA and E-management are the keys to defeating the BnZ, even with multiple bad guys.
Simaril, PM me and I'll send you links to several films with a couple of fellows who were working on wingman tactics. I was the rabbit, so to speak. You will notice that that when fighting two guys at once, you have to develop a sense of timing, recognizing when the threat changes. You may also notice that radical maneuvers are often not required. Doing no more than taking away an angle is often sufficient. Diving under the other guy's nose is often a great way to spoil what appeared to be a good opportunity. Watch from the fixed view with trails on. Use the sliders to change view angles.
My regards,
Widewing
widewing......may i ask t requests of you? first off, i've been away for a month or so, so am very rusty..considering i'm not too good to begin with..but first is..could those clinics be any night except tuesday or thursday? 2nd, is could you possibly post those links here sir?
thanks!!!!
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john
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Originally posted by CAP1
widewing......may i ask t requests of you? first off, i've been away for a month or so, so am very rusty..considering i'm not too good to begin with..but first is..could those clinics be any night except tuesday or thursday? 2nd, is could you possibly post those links here sir?
thanks!!!!
<>
john
John, the second clinic is on a Friday evening (11/16/07) at 9 PM eastern. We meet at field A100, vox is 104. You are also welcome to drop in the TA on Wednesday evenings. I'm usually there by 9 PM, and Ren is there till about 8 PM. Murdr is also likely to be there as well.
I'll PM you the links...
My regards,
Widewing
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So to summarize -- and to confirm that I'm getting what you folks are saying.
- I need to pay way more attention to 360 SA
- I need to maneuver to get myself out of plane so I can track and shoot
- I need to change angles even when planning similar maneuvers
- I need to be thinking "position for the shot" at least as much as "line up the shot"
Does that cover things well?
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Sim,
you are a good stick, sometimes in reading your post/replys I tend to think you read too much into what is being suggested to you, when it is alot simpler than the way you are taking this information in........
relax, read a little, practice and evaluate it.....
I will make time to hook up with you!!!
you got my email address
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Yeah, I have a tendency to overanalyze stuff. Seems natural to me, but now that my 18 year old daughter does it too I can see how annoying it can be!!
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You are far from annoying bro. You're one of the most patient, friendly, and easy to get along with, people I know.
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Sim,
I never said you was annoying
it just seems like you think about the discussion to deeply, as you said you "have a tendency to overanalyze stuff"
this in itself can become discouraging when trying to figure things out......
shoot me an email with some times this week we can hook up in the TA, anytime after 7pm EST/EDT.....
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Originally posted by Widewing
John, the second clinic is on a Friday evening (11/16/07) at 9 PM eastern. We meet at field A100, vox is 104. You are also welcome to drop in the TA on Wednesday evenings. I'm usually there by 9 PM, and Ren is there till about 8 PM. Murdr is also likely to be there as well.
I'll PM you the links...
My regards,
Widewing
thank ya sir!!!!
:aok
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Originally posted by Simaril
So to summarize -- and to confirm that I'm getting what you folks are saying.
- I need to pay way more attention to 360 SA
- I need to maneuver to get myself out of plane so I can track and shoot
- I need to change angles even when planning similar maneuvers
- I need to be thinking "position for the shot" at least as much as "line up the shot"
Does that cover things well? [/B]
As already mentioned dont get overly analytical about it all. Simply being "aware" of some of these items will help over time. I also think we need to define your "check list" a bit.
Situational Awareness is a term I think different folks use to mean different things. To me "SA" has strong tactical implications...it starts with the "big picture" but then focuses on the intermediate (those cons in the 3.0 range) and then further to my immediate "target" focus. I view "target SA" as the single biggest element of ACM. Once I initiate ACM vs a particular plane with the intent of either evading or attacking I want him "locked in" view wise till I switch off him or die or nuetralize his threat. To me 10% of SA is "big picture" 20% is "head on a swivel" and 70% is true awarness of your "targets" speed, attitude & lift vector.
"Out of Plane" manuevering isn't something you force. It's a by product of good ACM. In Most fights your out of plane more then your in plane. Any time you execute a high or low yoyo vs a con your "out of plane". I hapened to be in the TA a few weeks ago and Bat & clerick were working with WWM. I jumped in and lent what perspective I could. Most of which was playing "target" in an A-20 while WWM was in a 109F. I tried to show him that by focusing on his lift vector and keeping mine either 45 or 90 degree's off I could evade (and often "reverse" him) with some regularity.
If you look at the clip with frenchy I posted here you can see the concept of "managing your lift vector" at work.
You can see me trying to hold my lift vector at roughly 45 degree's of lag. Then I'm off the gas...in effect maitaining lag and avoiding an overshoot and then rotating my lift vector thru him to lead...
Now look at frenchies reverse to me. Try and look at the inverted Twith his wings as the base and cockpit "up" view as his lift vector (not technically correct but close. At 41 sec (time of chk 6's) what I'm looking at is that he's a bit "flat"...his lift vector is actually right on me (which means he cant hit me) on that line)...notice I try and keep his lift vector right on me...in effect his plane has to fly that track around me (I'm inside his "arc") as he corrects and pulls for the shot all I do is roll my lift vector and then rinse and repeat the initial move. Now after missing the shot I'm defensive...I have no way to avoid getting caught in a fight I cant win IF I continue the rolling scissors.....so I defend the reverse and deny the continued scissors...to me this is "target SA". He then elects to scoot with the other cons coming in play and in the end successfully RTB's...
So I'd say "manuever correctly" and you'll create good shot windows
I'm not sure what you mean by #3...do you mean similiar to the other guy?
If so I think thats dead wrong. In an MA enviornment almost nothing is ever "even". Plane type, fuel load, starting alt speed etc all vary...so the "right" move for each plane is different. If two cons are both trying to make the "same or similiar" move then one of them is wrong.
I dont agree with the wording on #4 at all either. Tactics are based on situation. Sound tactics generate good shot windows (even in a defensive losing fight). Looking at the jug clip I didnt try for the initial shot...I actually converted to lag and "sat" on his climbing reverse. Had he elected to split S I'd have had no shot...but had I taken a more aggresive line he'd have "rolled" my lift vector and eviserated my A-20. Had I tried to go "angles" he'd have got me on the 2nd pass or avoided my shot and I'd have been left for toast in the end.
So by flying a tactically correct {to the best of my ability} fight I took and converted (to some degree) both shots that those tactics generated. I didnt chase either shot but transitioned back to lag and kept my "tactical SA" up and elected to extend as soon as I felt that no further advantage existed.
If I was thinking "shot" I'd have died and been @#$% over a fight I "should have" won. The reality is Frenchy flew an aggresive fight against a plane that he probably has relatively little "feel" for and therefor took a more aggresive line then he would next time. He finally got me out front and then disengaged as soon as he saw me trundling away. Even if the other planes hadnt been there no way I'm chasing a good jug driver down. I'll take my "tactical victory" and mossy along vs letting him reload and then reverse me...
Sim, I'd spend a month or two with TC, WW and murdr focusing on the fundementals of E fighting (both + and -)...thats the base on which you can build and expand to achive what you want.
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:lol
Sorry guys - meant my DAUGHTER is annoying when she goes into analysis mode, as it can last an entire car trip and is entirely done out loud. On one hand, it's grea that she's willing to talk to us about what's on her mind, so we can't shush her. But, on the other hand, sometimes it makes my ears bleed....
Don't worry, I'm not slamming on myself, just acknowledging that I can overanalyze things -- and failing at trying to joke about it!
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i wouldnt say i over analyze but i do find i sort of talk my way through a fight.
so im setting at 15k flying around by myself.
i see a con i talk to myself about that con, maybe i say hes lower than me or maybe i just giggle and dive like a maniac.
really i try to talk myself through a threat asesment, but that usualy gets forgoten with more than 3 cons around.
1.who is the most dangerous to you at the moment?
2.what is the general e state of enemys?
3.how am i on energy as compared to other cons?
4.should i get involved?
5.who is blowing e
3. can i get there and kill them b4 ther buddies get me?
6.i kill the guy then what?
7. can i get away and rebuild e?
thats some of my out loud though proceses.
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Sim i sympathise my aim has been pretty poor most of the week, it's beginning to really annoy me. I seem to be making or atleast what i think are snapshot opportunities but seem to be missing them most of the time. Since ive returned from my 2 year hiatus things don't seem to be as naturally as they used to. i've mainly been furballing to try and get the feel back (the pedals have been a nightmare, i still sometimes apply the wrong pedal).
Ok here's a film to show you guys what i mean. I created a few opportunities but didnt land any significant hits. Looking at the film already i should have just stayed kept my alt after the merge at about 20 secs and watched what he did. There are several times where i could have disengaged i know but i'm really just trying to get some quality stick time.
Any comments are welcomed
film (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/87_1193179525_109p38.ahf)
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Ffrom my view a bit of rust is all. You had him cold a few times and just missed....in a fight like that where you came off the gas repeatedly your simply creating the reality that missing is a bad thing:).
Now from a "style" perspective I'd have flown alot of the fight differently. But that doesnt make one way right and another wrong. I'de have kept my nose under and flown an "E opener" not gone up and thru. To me he flew a noob merge but thats just my opinion...After you chased around I'd have gone vertical as he went down...I think you played into his bad opener a bit much...
From your extension I'd have spiral climbed him and stomped on his head...on your reverse your in plane at the time of his shot...again I'd avoid and climb not cut the gas and go angles...When you then go to a two circle fight i'd have been in a rolling scissors....again he's attacking you top down for the 3rd time...
All that being said you set him up nicely multiple times....in the end you win that fight in a walk once your gunnery is back...
*** at edit***
2 other things after thinking on it for a bit...
a) I didnt see any horizontal seperation...you didnt really create a good merge....
which leads me to #2
b) seperate from "Style" I think you were in plane a lot. Not something I'd do with that plane match up in a vertical looping type fight. To me with the way he flew I'd have looked to convert one of those nose down attacks into a climbing rolling scissors...
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I've been following this thread closely and spending time trying to put the advice (which has all been good) into practice via lots of practice.
I must attest that this thread has been so helpful. I've noticed a definate improvement in the last couple of days. My biggest problem is gunnery since I'm a horrible shot. After watching some of my films, I noticed I missed most often and in turn get killed when I lose patience and try to force a shot.
Most of my misses come from trying to pull too hard for a lead and I end up losing site of the target because he is buried in my instrument panel. It so easy for the target to jink out of plane, reverse and snapshot me when I do this.
Now, I take my time, lag roll, lag pursuit, get a good solid solution, unload and then squeeze... Bang!!!
Thanks guys!!
HighGTrn
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(These are just my views, on how I do things, but any help would be greatly appreciated)
After about an hour offline, I figured out my Convergence area. Simply by the fact I noticed that I don't fire when you're farther than 200 away from me. This probably has alot to do with the fact I used to fly the Yak-9U alot. It was (and still is, though I haven't used it alot lately) one of my best/favorite rides. But back to the subject.
Like I said, I just won't fire out of 200. And this can cause some major problems for me. Specially' when someones in a faster plane than myself. And just extends (common of late, as I've been flying slower aircraft, cept the 190A-5... but that was pretty much random.) I know I need to practice on farther shots, but it is a tough habit. I just don't like wasting bullets. It makes me feel bad. Any way you guys think I can speed the process up? I mean, I figure I might just slowly set the Conv. out farther. Until I hit an area that is actually better, and know it for the different planes I fly.
On SA, I have learned fairly quickly that if you aren't looking around, you will get shot in the buttocks, and there probably won't be enough of you left to go eat ice cream at a Field Hospital. Heck, I learned that in Warbirds, and I only played it about a month. And it has nowhere near the numbers we do here.
I constantly sweep the area, atleast when I'm not in combat. Wing dips, with rudder to counter some of the alt. loss (I climbed up there, it took time, I don't want to just give it away) and even flying inverted for short times to make sure no one is hiding somewhere. I figure this is a good thing. Right?
But in battle, I tend to slow it down in my mind. More so recently. I see a plane, and I zoom in quickly with the Camera to see what he's doing. I figure I've seen a few of the more common cockpits and I know about where he can/can't see. Even if I have a big red marker showing where I am. So, if I can I like to set up to come in from those blind spots. And with the sun giving me a light (pun intended) push to help. I used to not do this. And I still have to think about it now adays, it's not natural to me yet. I'll do it even if their above me, or co-alt. As long as he doesn't see me, he 'should' be an easy kill. Thankfully most people see me. (Cause, you know, as much as I like stabbing people in the back, it still feels kinda dirty)
Also, I've recently been seeing how an aircraft is flying from a distance. His direction. And about what speed he might be, based off alt. and situation. And I try to think what I would be doing in his case. And visioning how I would do it. Low La-7 leaving everyone in the dust? Common since tells me if he has fuel, and ammo left, he will climb back up once we ignore him. There are other situations, but that is the most common to me. None of the aircraft I fly can keep up with a La-7 at just about any alt. So, I just usally let them walk away. Let the faster guys get them, I don't mind. But during that time my head will stay on a swivel. Sure, I have a low target out infront of me, but he may have sneaky friends. Sneaky friends that will come from behind and put a bullet in my backside.
I can usually keep my enemy in my view, since I have the buttons around my hat switch set to The up angles (Fr, Fl, Rl, Rr) as well as another button in easy reach for the area between all the way up, and forward. Not to mention that I have the head posistions set to what I find the most 'seeing.' So, lately I've been seeing things more 3d. I can see up and downs uses finally. It only took a year. (It was mostly because of that P-40 vs. N1k video someone put up, sorry if I can't remember who. :( )
I think I've gotten better since I was gone, atleast it seems like it. It may just be because I'm lucky (Hah! I doubt that! Me and Luck are not good pals!) I could just be crazy. That's more likely.
One of my major problems is I will get fixated. I try to break it, but my gunnery is kinda... crap. So alot of the time I end up losing my target when I look around. The only way I've figured out how to fix this is to just lag track. Hey, I mean, I look around, and if I didn't turn any faster/he didn't manuever, then it's very likely he is just where I left him. Don't turn all the way, and just pull him in. I personally don't trust snap shots. I prefer a steady target in my sights. But that isn't always possible. And I will shoot anyone who gets thier long enough for me to 'feel' them getting hit.
Do these seem like good things to you guys? (On a side note, I got Check 6: The Virtual Pilots thingy last summer, and I read it alot. And I have found it useful, if very... vague at times)
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Hien - regarding your views.
All you need is one "look up" button. Pressing the look up button in combination with the hat will give you a 45 degree view.
So for example my views are set as follows -
Up on hat - "forward up" (45 degree up, forward)
Rest of hat - front right, right, back right, back, back left, left, front left.
Button on throttle - "up" - looks straight up.
I press right on the hat and I look out over my right wing. I hold the hat right and press the look up button, my view swivels up 45 degrees and I'm now looking at my 3 o clock high position. I let go of the hat but hold the button, and my view shifts to straight up out the top of the cockpit.
If you want to consistantly come out ahead in 1v1 fights you have to be able to do three things, and you have to be able to do them all at the same time. You have to be able to control your plane, you have to be able to keep the enemy plane in sight, and you have to control your throttle. Typically, unless you have a HOTAS setup, the last two are very difficult to do simultanously.
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Originally posted by Urchin
...You have to be able to control your plane, you have to be able to keep the enemy plane in sight, and you have to control your throttle. Typically, unless you have a HOTAS setup, the last two are very difficult to do simultanously.
Hopefully Santa will bring me a HOTAS this year. Meanwhile, this setup works great for me:
I mapped "look up" to the trigger, and "fire all guns" mapped to keyboard space bar. Primary and secondary fire to keys A and S. Took a couple days to get used to but it made a huge difference once it became second nature. I can keep the bandit in view and maneuver with stick hand while my other hand is always free for throttle, flaps, guns, beer, fist shaking, giving the bandit the finger as he rolls over me, etc.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Hien - regarding your views.
All you need is one "look up" button. Pressing the look up button in combination with the hat will give you a 45 degree view.
So for example my views are set as follows -
Up on hat - "forward up" (45 degree up, forward)
Rest of hat - front right, right, back right, back, back left, left, front left.
Button on throttle - "up" - looks straight up.
I press right on the hat and I look out over my right wing. I hold the hat right and press the look up button, my view swivels up 45 degrees and I'm now looking at my 3 o clock high position. I let go of the hat but hold the button, and my view shifts to straight up out the top of the cockpit.
If you want to consistantly come out ahead in 1v1 fights you have to be able to do three things, and you have to be able to do them all at the same time. You have to be able to control your plane, you have to be able to keep the enemy plane in sight, and you have to control your throttle. Typically, unless you have a HOTAS setup, the last two are very difficult to do simultanously.
Well, I would do that, and will probably try. But a few of the buttons on my EXTREME (yeah, right http://www.metaleks.lv/images/products/99/40/large/Extreme%203D%20Pro%20Joystick1.jpg ) Pro 3d have died, including the main finger trigger, and 2 of the 6 buttons to the side. :(
(On a side note, it would be great if I could get them fixed, but I doubt that will happen)
I have it set up to fire Secondary with the thumb button, which isn't so bad really. Since I don't think I should be looking around when I fire my guns at something infront of me. And whenever I feel the need to check my 6 right before I fire I just curl my pointer up and move the Hat with it. (looking at that, right now, how I do that. It looks really wierd... I should take a picture... or something. Because it's my middile finger on the dead trigger. :huh )
Problem is I have set primary to one of the 6 side buttons, so I have to think when I fire them, it's not natural. I will probably set them both back to the thumb button.
Yeah... I think I'll go do that right now... Ooooh yeah...
On the Throttle and views part I don't have too hard of a time, my left thumb and pointer can get the throttle, and the rest of my fingers operate the 6 buttons above it. Mostly cause none of them combine with anything else, shouldn't be too hard to add a look up to one of them and keep in throttle control.
I've had crazier control schemes in Mechwarrior. (I used to have two Joysticks, and Mechwarrior 3, well... yeah. I think you get the idea. Too bad I don't have rudder pedals. Or else I would set the Rudder Axis on my stick to move my head left and right. :D)
Thanks alot Urchin :aok
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Most of my hits in pursuit mode I can't even see happen in my window. They happen underneath my plane out of view. It's a guessing game.
Sometimes I pull up well past the plane then release pressure on the stick and wait a sec for him to enter the window before i shoot.
Looking for angle shots is probably the best way to learn gunnery. It was easy for me to understand when explained like this. You want to throw a football to a guy running across the field. Do you throw it right at him or judge his speed and throw it in front of him? The answers obvious so, make your bullets meet the plane in the same way. The closer you are the less you lead him.
Sometimes when there is no chance of hitting a plane without crashing into him i'll use hard rudder to point my nose in his direction as he approaches. I don't get many kills that way but it does make it easier to put him dn on the second try if there is one plus you may give him pilot wound or smoke his eng.
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Question on hit %
Is it counted by how many bullets you put in him or how many it takes to put him down. I'm very cheap on the ammo and usually don't fire unless I know I have a shot. In other words, If i put more MG or 50's in him before i fire the cannon and kill him would my hit % go up? I think i'm between 12 and 13 now which leads me to another question.
Dose that mean I'm putting 12 bullets per 100 in him? It doesn't seem like it but i could be wrong.
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Yes, a 12% hit percentage means you hit with 12 out of every 100 rounds you fire.
Honestly, that isn't bad.
"Fighter Mode" counts a round as a miss unless it hits an enemy plane. If you come upon an M3 and strafe it, you "missed" with every round. If you de-ack a field, or strafe ammo/radar/whatever, you "missed" with those rounds.
So if you do a lot of mud moving in fighter mode, your hit percentage will be a little gimped.