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General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: moneyguy on October 22, 2007, 07:00:01 PM

Title: running 2 routers
Post by: moneyguy on October 22, 2007, 07:00:01 PM
is this possible? i have an existing router upstairs with 4 computers running off of it. could i connect 1 of the wires from that router to a second router in the basement,  where there are 4 more computers running? or would i have to get another cable modem and all that crap. any info would be great.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Hungry on October 22, 2007, 07:05:46 PM
Moneyguy

I ran a switch for a similar purpose, only Im on a wired conecction.  I ran a line upsatirs to a 4 port switch, then ran a line from the switch to each of my sons computers.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Vulcan on October 22, 2007, 07:53:56 PM
Yup buy a switch. Connect it to one of the router ports. Run some PC's off the remaining router ports and the rest of the switch ports.

So you have


Internet
      |
Router
      |      |      |      |
     PC   PC   PC   Switch
                            |      |      |      |      |
                           PC   PC   PC   PC   PC
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: moneyguy on October 22, 2007, 07:59:19 PM
great! thanks fellas!  
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: The Fugitive on October 22, 2007, 09:25:53 PM
linksys routers are set up for it, don't remember which line you have to use to be the input on the next router, but I remember them being able to do it.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: CptHowdy on October 23, 2007, 02:00:27 PM
Most routers will allow you to turn off DHCP in the config setting which will then basically turn the router into a switch.  Don't buy a switch until you test this first.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Vulcan on October 23, 2007, 08:41:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by CptHowdy
Most routers will allow you to turn off DHCP in the config setting which will then basically turn the router into a switch.  Don't buy a switch until you test this first.


^^^ Ignore this advice, its incorrect.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: moneyguy on October 23, 2007, 10:38:46 PM
thanks for the info fellas. i ordered a switch from newegg.

i got this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833129012)
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Vulcan on October 23, 2007, 11:59:30 PM
Looks good and should do the trick fine. Don't forget to get some UTP cable :)
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: CptHowdy on October 24, 2007, 06:36:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
^^^ Ignore this advice, its incorrect.


Just out of curiosity can you defend that statement.  

I've done it many times at work and in fact it's currently in use in my home network.  I have a D-link wired router and a Buffalo wireless.  The Buffalo has DHCP turned off and is being used as both a wireless access point and has two ports being used wired for a desktop PC and a Tivo.

Here's the first hit on Google when I searched the topic:

http://www.computing.net/networking/wwwboard/forum/24446.html

In your defense I did forget to mention that you could not use the WAN port any longer after you do this. Of course if you have the right router this can even be fixed if you flash the firmware with DD-WRT or Tomato.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Vulcan on October 24, 2007, 03:28:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by CptHowdy
Just out of curiosity can you defend that statement.  


Its like buying a second car just for the spare tyres. A router is more expensive than a switch, so buying a second switch is a better cheaper simpler  solution. You are also making the configuration unnecessarily complicated.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: CptHowdy on October 24, 2007, 10:09:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Its like buying a second car just for the spare tyres. A router is more expensive than a switch, so buying a second switch is a better cheaper simpler  solution. You are also making the configuration unnecessarily complicated.


When I read the first post my brain apparently read "he owns two routers" and not that he was asking what to purchase.  Owning only one router a switch would be his easiest option.

As far as my configuration being more complicated I guess it depends on who's doing it.  It's about a two minute operation if you are familiar with your hardware.

When it comes to the switch being cheaper than a router I will absolutely agree with you ...except in this case.  Did you check out how much he's spending on this Gigabit switch?    He's got good taste:)
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Vulcan on October 25, 2007, 12:05:11 AM
Errr its an SMC switch? Looked cheap to me?
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Tac on October 25, 2007, 12:32:33 AM
I can only add a slight warning to this:

Since I dont know how big your house is, just make sure the cable you run from the computer in basement to wherever you have the router set up is not more than 100 meters (id say 80 to be safe) or you may run into signal degradation (which for an online game could mean very bad packet loss burp sessions).
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Fulmar on October 25, 2007, 12:44:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by CptHowdy
Most routers will allow you to turn off DHCP in the config setting which will then basically turn the router into a switch.  Don't buy a switch until you test this first.


bingo
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: moneyguy on October 25, 2007, 07:49:40 PM
so...whats the difference between a router and a switch? aside from the fact that the router has little antenna's on it.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Fulmar on October 25, 2007, 08:02:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by moneyguy
so...whats the difference between a router and a switch? aside from the fact that the router has little antenna's on it.


Easiest way to say it:
Routers are switches that have firewalls built into them (and have wireless antenna options too).  Switches do not have a firewall.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Irwink! on October 25, 2007, 08:13:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by moneyguy
so...whats the difference between a router and a switch? aside from the fact that the router has little antenna's on it.


Routers enable traffic between different networks. Switches or hubs facilitate traffic between 2 or more computers on the same network.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: moneyguy on October 25, 2007, 09:33:52 PM
so i could toss the POS router i have, run 2 switches (the one i bought only has 5 ports) and get a small wireless router?
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Vulcan on October 25, 2007, 10:38:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Fulmar
Easiest way to say it:
Routers are switches that have firewalls built into them (and have wireless antenna options too).  Switches do not have a firewall.


Oh jesus good grief.... please please do not give advice on things your ENTIRELY ABSOLUTELY BEYOND COMPREHENSION ignorant about.

mmkay? :)
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Vulcan on October 25, 2007, 10:38:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by moneyguy
so i could toss the POS router i have, run 2 switches (the one i bought only has 5 ports) and get a small wireless router?


What brand/model is your existing router?
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: CptHowdy on October 26, 2007, 07:21:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by moneyguy
so...whats the difference between a router and a switch? aside from the fact that the router has little antenna's on it.


Routers hand out the IP addresses to the machines that are connected in your network, this is done thru DHCP.  If you are going to have more than one PC on your network then you have to have this.  Routers are also where the security of your system begins,,they have firewalls, MAC filtering, IP allowance and denial, and WEP/WPA/PSK security for the wireless ( if you buy a wireless router that is ). They also have advanced features for those people who need them such as VPN setup, port forwarding, and tunneling. "Most" home users do not need the advanced stuff.  Routers are administered via a web GUI,,you would use a web browser and for example go to hhtp://192.168.1.1 ( will be different for different vendors ) and once logged in you can activate/deactivate the above features to your hearts content. This is a shotgun expanation of routers.

Switches, as another poster stated, facilitate traffic between PC's on your network but there main function is to act as an expansion of the router. They do not have the above functionality and you cannot login and make any changes. There are "managed" switches ( $$$ ) but that is another animal and designed for business networks.  Switches ( in a typical home setup ) basically add extra ports for the router and in your example extend the network to another room or floor.

You have several options available to accomplish what you're looking to do. If your current router is functional then adding a switch is the simplest thing to do.  If you are looking to go wireless someday you may want to consider replacing the old router with a wireless one.  Wireless routers have all the functionality of traditional wired routers with the benefit of being a wireless access point.

As Vulcan asked, you probably should provide the make/model of your current router so a better evaluation can be given.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Fulmar on October 26, 2007, 12:20:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Oh jesus good grief.... please please do not give advice on things your ENTIRELY ABSOLUTELY BEYOND COMPREHENSION ignorant about.

mmkay? :)


Sorry, figured he was quite the novice.  Didn't want to jumble his brain with DHCP and mysterious things called packets and headers.  But hey, lets shoot for the home run.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: JB73 on October 26, 2007, 12:53:59 PM
routers do not necessarily provide IP addresses on a network, in fact in most networks they do not. you use a server running as a DHCP host for assigning addresses.


Routers sort and send network traffic based on rules (router tables). routers have 2 "sides" and based on the rules either send traffic through or block it / send it back. they have 2 different network addresses, and "internal" and "external"

Imagine this scenario:

PC A address 111 on network 222

PC B address 555 on network 333

PC C address 333 on network 222

PC D address 888 on network 222

PC's A, C, and D are on 1 side of the router, B on the other.

PC C broadcasts a message to PC A that message would be dropped by the router as to not get to PC B. B would never even know the message existed.

PC A sends a message to PC B, the router knows B is on network 333 so if forwards the message on to PC B


that is the most simple explanation I can give for the general gist of it.



a switch would have PC A, C, and D connected to it, and when PC A sends to PC D the switch would not send that message to the port PC C is on because it doesn't need to go there. notice they are all on the same network though.

A hub would send A's message to port D and C. no "intelligence"



now consumer "routers" from best buy for $40 are a meld of both switch and router and hub. the 4 ports on the back generally work as a hub since 4 ports are not enough to cause network traffic problems, broadcast messages are fine. the jack you connect the "internet" to on those is "the other side" of the router part. in the router config you can see the IP your ISP gives you (the EXTERNAL address), and the address you access the router (like 192.168.0.1) is the INTERNAL address.


most here don't need ot bother knowing more than that so I won't go on, but I hope that clears a bit of the air.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: Vulcan on October 26, 2007, 04:55:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Fulmar
Sorry, figured he was quite the novice.  Didn't want to jumble his brain with DHCP and mysterious things called packets and headers.  But hey, lets shoot for the home run.


Yeahhhhhhhh . Rereading the thread I think I was still in 'work' mode. Work mode is 'presales' on things like foundry chassis switches, big bellybutton Layer 7 firewalls, distributed wireless networks etc, and dealing with resellers who get confused about such stuff. Apologies for jumping at ya.  I'm gonna shut up now.
Title: running 2 routers
Post by: DerHelm on November 02, 2007, 01:15:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Yeahhhhhhhh . Rereading the thread I think I was still in 'work' mode. Work mode is 'presales' on things like foundry chassis switches, big bellybutton Layer 7 firewalls, distributed wireless networks etc, and dealing with resellers who get confused about such stuff. Apologies for jumping at ya.  I'm gonna shut up now.


Dude, I completely understand.  For me, any time you have to answer a question by first correcting the question... Things tend to get bad after that.