Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: lutrel on October 24, 2007, 07:14:51 PM
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Gentlemen, I hear through the grapevine that it is frowned upon to bomb and take bases. I do understand about the map not auto resetting being an issue here too. Let it be known that we will conduct offenses on fields and even capture them; if lucky. But, by no means will we ever pork the map and bail out; if we were to have negative effects on the map, we would gladly switch sides and fix it.
We have flown together for almost ten years and we have a style of flying that should benefit the arena and not have any negative effects on game play. We are very used to set allied vs axis plane sets and realistic scenarios and are looking forward to setteling in here. Mondays and Thursdays we may pick out one or two fields and spar over them with the enemy all evening; but it will be an all out assault on a field or two. On most other nights we pop in as a smaller group and wing up in fighters for fun. We enjoy a good scrap in a fighter as much as the next guy, but we also enjoy the assault on a field with escort on our squad nights. We use a monthly rotation between allied and axis and will rotate on that schedule. Please bare with us as we are still relatively new in this flight sim.
Most of us are either military or ex military, are pretty thick skinned and enjoy the friendly jabs back and forth on the radio. Please let me know if any of my guys do cross the line and we will escort them back over.
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Thank you for that sir
I'm not a staff member or an arena 'leader' but knowing that clears up a lot for me.
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I need a little clarification. Exactly with whom do you intend to "spar over bases". People take bases all the time in the AvA. They're generally ignored. I'm sure nobody minds if you trade off bases but you may need to bring a "sparing partner".
Then there's the problem that sometimes the settings don't accommodate base taking. The ack is set to such a weak setting you can fly right through it and the puffy is set even lower. Be real easy for one plane to pork your ords and troops. That is if the down time isn't set real short making caping a base very difficult. Sucks when you pop a town building and it comes up in 30 seconds.
This doesn't bode well, maybe we should reconfigure all the setups for base taking....yeah that's the ticket...lets do that.
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So your saying you guys have created a glorified Dueling Arena? Reguardless of settings, we will fly as mentioned above; you can ignor us or fight us, your call.
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Your best bet is to pick 2 apposing bases take one switch sides take it back. That can be real challenging especially if the down times are short and the number of troops to capture is high.
When numbers are low, say 4 or less, it's pretty much a dueling arena with different planes. When the numbers are high, lets say over 24, its more of a furball arena. The in-between numbers give you something, well, in-between. The "in-between" numbers cause the most arguments because some want to duel and some want to furball. I would describe it as onesy-twosy fights with threat of interference. When the numbers are over 50 it usually becomes the proverbial cluster-f (this only happens when the MAs go down). It can all be fun.
Just as the quake guys play different games with their engine (deathmatch, capture the flag, defend the fort, whatever), AH is just an engine and many games can be played. You can always take undefended bases in any of 4 arenas where they play the land grab game, but nobody really cares if you take them in the AvA as long as the arena doesn't get screwed up. Who knows maybe some bored guys will up some planes and shoot at ya, never can tell.
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LOL, there is no threat of us capturing a lot of bases at the moment guys. We find the flight models pretty simular to what we have flown for the last 9+ years and can hold our own in the fighters. It's all the little proceedural differences, that we are learning as we go, that will keep us a smaller threat for a while longer on the base taking side of the game. Feel free to laugh when ever we fumble the ball.
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can I point, giggle, and roll film too? :D
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By all means do, it will make a good family album to look at in a few years...............
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In all seriousness, why did you choose the AvA to conduct your operations? It is widely known that the AvA is really not set up for the "base capture game".
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In all seriousness, we chose the AvA arena because it fits more closely to what we are used to flying in. We just feel that when flying an Allied aircraft it is silly to fight another Allied aircraft and visa versa for the Axis planes too. We are also used to a smaller crowd than what usually haunts the main arenas; those arenas tend to be a little chaotic to us. We like the more realistic plane set found in the AvA arena and the smaller crowd will give us the room we need to learn the proceedures of the game. We are not knocking the main arenas; what ever floats their boat.
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FSO is really the best place for "historical" gameplay. I have very little current experience in the AvA (never anyone up when I look) but from the current threads it seems very little has changed. While the planeset might fit your preferance the current state of affairs might not. Then again maybe you'll draw more numbers....personally I think furball island in the DA probably will continue to "out draw" the AvA.
My personal thoughts have been that "digital dirt" squads (and squads in general) belong more in the MA then what was the CT. This is not philosophical but an obsevation of the effects on gameplay over time. The comments in the other thread reflect the general distaste by many (myself included) for at least some of the "squads" in the AvA.
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Don't let all these guys pee in your cornflakes. If you want to take bases, knock yourself out. But, unless you like running bases unopposed, announce on 200 what base your target is, and challenge those on the other side to stop you.
Some of the most fun we've had in the AvA (IMO) is when someone like Filth would put together a mission, announced it well ahead of time, and let anyone who showed up pick a side and have at it. There is no reason a similar thing couldn't be done over a base or two in a more impromptu fashion.
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Originally posted by lutrel
In all seriousness, we chose the AvA arena because it fits more closely to what we are used to flying in. We just feel that when flying an Allied aircraft it is silly to fight another Allied aircraft and visa versa for the Axis planes too. We are also used to a smaller crowd than what usually haunts the main arenas; those arenas tend to be a little chaotic to us. We like the more realistic plane set found in the AvA arena and the smaller crowd will give us the room we need to learn the proceedures of the game. We are not knocking the main arenas; what ever floats their boat.
Fair enough.
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Originally posted by E25280
Don't let all these guys pee in your cornflakes. If you want to take bases, knock yourself out. But, unless you like running bases unopposed, announce on 200 what base your target is, and challenge those on the other side to stop you.
Some of the most fun we've had in the AvA (IMO) is when someone like Filth would put together a mission, announced it well ahead of time, and let anyone who showed up pick a side and have at it. There is no reason a similar thing couldn't be done over a base or two in a more impromptu fashion.
Indeed :aok
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Originally posted by E25280
Don't let all these guys pee in your cornflakes. If you want to take bases, knock yourself out. But, unless you like running bases unopposed, announce on 200 what base your target is, and challenge those on the other side to stop you.
Some of the most fun we've had in the AvA (IMO) is when someone like Filth would put together a mission, announced it well ahead of time, and let anyone who showed up pick a side and have at it. There is no reason a similar thing couldn't be done over a base or two in a more impromptu fashion.
True, and excellent advice. Back in the dawn of AH time, base taking was created to focus the fights, not as an end in itself.
Or so I have read.
- oldman
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Originally posted by E25280
Don't let all these guys pee in your cornflakes. If you want to take bases, knock yourself out. But, unless you like running bases unopposed, announce on 200 what base your target is, and challenge those on the other side to stop you.
Some of the most fun we've had in the AvA (IMO) is when someone like Filth would put together a mission, announced it well ahead of time, and let anyone who showed up pick a side and have at it. There is no reason a similar thing couldn't be done over a base or two in a more impromptu fashion.
:aok
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:D
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If you don't want base capture in the AvA, then disable everything that can carry troops. Hey presto, no base capture, period.
As long as the option is there to capture, then obviously its can not be against the rules to do so.
Most base capture's end up with some very good fights in the process. So why short circuit the mechanism?
Also forget the whole unwritten rules thing. If you want things to be known and followed, put them in the Arena message so everyone sees it. Isn't that what its there for?
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It's ok to take a base just don't outnumber, gang, vulch, pork, or cap. I'm sorry, I have to stop, my side hurts.:rofl
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Here's a thought for the peanut gallery. Maybe the Avengers hanging out in the AvA will pull more people in there.
Look back over all the threads over the past few months, you see one recurring theme. No one wants to go in there if there aren't numbers.
When new guy logs in and see 6 people in the AvA, chances are he will choose the MA. If you see 40 people in the AvA, maybe you'll give it a shot.
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The Avengers used to fly in the WB 277 arena till we shut the lights there. Then we wnet to the main in WB3 but found it to be nothing but a furball fest. So we decided to go to the WW2 arena which is very much like the AvA arena in AH. The WW2 arena was low in numbers when we arrived. Some nights 0 players, other nights 10 players. We stuck it out and by the time we left there were usually as many as 50-60 players on the arena. Numbers lures numbers...and good numbers at that. I see an arena with 100 or more as too crowded. For example.....when we were in the AH main, we would plan a mission and by the time we got there, the town was closed...so we would move in another direction only to find the town half closed and about to pop. 50 is a good number....and I have a gut feeling that such will be the number in a pretty short period of time in the AvA arena.
As for the "unwritten" rules of conduct....The Avengers live by only a few rules....we will not "game the game" and we will do all we can to maintain the integrity of the "relative" realism of the sim. Please note I say "relative" realism. We know it is not as realistic as we would all like it....but for a computer game, it has some pretty impressive "realistic" qualities.
As for no capping? Why? if you dont want to be vulched, then up another field and come in with alt. No vulching? Why? I am curious what a commander would say if his subordinate said " No boss, I will not shoot him down. I have too much of an advantage".( However, during a furball session, vulching is taboo...that I agree with). Dont pork Dar? Huh? One thing I laugh at is the in flight dar...if we can eliminate exposure, why not?
Look, I understand that some of you see AvA as a great furballing arena. The dueling arena is set up for that...why waste a "realtively" historic arena? Lets not look at the arrival of the Avengers as a bunch of guys looking to stir things up. Instead, look at it as a positive..I saw many of you guys fly last night. You guys are dam good. Talented, knowledgable...great wing tactics. Now with us here, maybe we can bring the numbers up and have a great arena that will make the main arenas nothing but a place for newbies....
Just the 2 cents of a long islander
Raptor33
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Originally posted by humble
personally I think furball island in the DA probably will continue to "out draw" the AvA.
Hey Humple,
What's it really like in there? I just like a good fight, I figured the dweebin would fly around buzzin everybody. If it's a good place to fight I'll be there.
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A good place to fight will be the AvA.....and at least there will be fighting for a cause.
Not knocking furballing...I like a good furball once in a while....But wouldnt it be a great feeling to land a handful of kills after defending your territory?
Just a thought.
Raptor33
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Furballin's just a pick fest. That' really not what goes on most of the time.
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Lutrel Avengers.
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Good to see a new group with interest in country specific, immersion based play. Good to see you sticking to your guns as well.
I am fairly certain that JG11 would enjoy OpFor in your sorties. It's a big map, others can still do as they enjoy as well. I think its a good start to hopefully a more enjoyable WW2 gaming experience than the current MA. Good luck.
See ya up.
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Originally posted by raptor33
A good place to fight will be the AvA.....Raptor33
I challenge you to stick it out and make this happen.
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Originally posted by KONG1
Hey Humple,
What's it really like in there? I just like a good fight, I figured the dweebin would fly around buzzin everybody. If it's a good place to fight I'll be there.
More good then bad, I'll normally fly the 109E, Ki-61 or P-40. Occasionally jet dweebs or picknoobs....but 80%+ is good "few on few"....alot of good sticks. Now with jets out should be even better...
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Originally posted by Stampf
Lutrel Avengers.
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Good to see a new group with interest in country specific, immersion based play. Good to see you sticking to your guns as well.
I am fairly certain that JG11 would enjoy OpFor in your sorties. It's a big map, others can still do as they enjoy as well. I think its a good start to hopefully a more enjoyable WW2 gaming experience than the current MA. Good luck.
See ya up.
Thanks and Stampf and JG11.We hold our squad nights Mondays and Thursdays around 730/800 est.We could pick a side of the map and duke it out:)
We've been having a blast in there so far.
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Lutrel Avengers
Just an old friend checking in with The Avengers after seeing some posts put up from Lutrel.
The Avengers are a fine group of pilots and will be an addition to any arena that they settle into IMHO. Best wishes to all of you and from the post here Im glad that you are bringing alot of the gameplay that we have flown at WBs into AH.
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Thanks for the kind words Humble, we miss sparring with you guys a lot on our squad nights. Hopefully someday we can again meet twice a week in battle, or wing up for another large bomber mission.
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I think recruiting and posting your intentions in here is the best way to grow the arena. If nothing else you will get to the point we had together in gathering enough players to make for a FUN SN and then the arena is mostly empty the other nights of the week. Im surprised that there isnt a regular crowd in there all the time with such a large player base.
HMMM maybe the ongoing problem that we have is just larger than low player base and is realism related. I have always felt that this sim had a younger player base than my sim resulting in dweebery. Do you think that is the case? Is the AvA arena better for that than the MA?
Good luck and Good hunting.
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Humble, the main differences we've noticed between the arenas so far is, the AvA is no where near as chaotic as the main arenas; pretty much the same differences we saw in Warbirds main and WWII arenas. Another thing we noticed is there seems to be a better skilled class of pilots haunting the AvA. Not knocking any of the main arena pilots, but we are all old sticks and couldn't help notice the team work of the wingmen we flew against Thursday night. It was like old times in the WWII Arena and we had a great time. I had some fun 2 vs 1 fights that got the heart rate up; I landed some and I hit the chute some. If you guys ever get frustrated enough to bail as we did, this place is worth considering and is very close to what we are used to; with the player base to have potential. Would be nice to see some Ferrets drop in and fly with us sometime in here.
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I miss huntin ferrets myself. :rofl
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Originally posted by KONG1
Hey Humple,
What's it really like in there? I just like a good fight, I figured the dweebin would fly around buzzin everybody. If it's a good place to fight I'll be there.
It's only a good fight if you go with a couple of people. Once it gets beyond 5+, it just ends up turning into a typical cherry picking furball that you can find in any of the arenas.
ack-ack
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The skill level of the average AvA'er is, IMO, much higher than in the MA.
Not that you can tell much by rank, but there's not many K/D's over 1.0 in AvA, even among the pros. I can keep a 3.0 K/D in the MA, but I think I'm sporting like a 0.3 or something in AvA.
Just my opinion of course.
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Originally posted by toonces3
The skill level of the average AvA'er is, IMO, much higher than in the MA.
Not that you can tell much by rank, but there's not many K/D's over 1.0 in AvA, even among the pros. I can keep a 3.0 K/D in the MA, but I think I'm sporting like a 0.3 or something in AvA.
Just my opinion of course.
I can't keep a 3.0 in any arena but I'm usually low in a 190 looking for a turnfight :D some of you guys care far too much about RTB'n.
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Originally posted by toonces3
The skill level of the average AvA'er is, IMO, much higher than in the MA.
Not that you can tell much by rank, but there's not many K/D's over 1.0 in AvA, even among the pros. I can keep a 3.0 K/D in the MA, but I think I'm sporting like a 0.3 or something in AvA.
Just my opinion of course.
That is not true toonces. In the MA you get vulched, picked, ganged, cant make it back cause no ammo, no fuel, no oil, 5" gun, etc and you accumulate deaths. In the AvA you could come in on a day that there are only 3 guys on and if you are just a litle bit better than them and they do take turns coming in, you could land 100 kills with 0 deaths. You call no ammo or RTB and they let you go. Try that in the MA, lol. So, I can get a 50 K/D in the AvA in one day beating up on someone with less experience where on that same day my k/d in the MA would have been 0.5.
Oh, that and some of the people in the AvA like to feel special somehow so they do tell themselves they are better than the average MA. Could be, possibly, maybe, mathematically because of the number of new guys in the MA be true, but it does not mean anything.
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Originally posted by toonces3
The skill level of the average AvA'er is, IMO, much higher than in the MA.
Not that you can tell much by rank, but there's not many K/D's over 1.0 in AvA, even among the pros. I can keep a 3.0 K/D in the MA, but I think I'm sporting like a 0.3 or something in AvA.
Just my opinion of course.
The gameplay is different, "average" pilot quality isnt really. No question that by and large the AvA regulars are reasonably seasoned and have a good feel for alot of the less utilized rides and the actual matchups. so you clearly have alot less of what most would refer to the "noob/dweeb" class....but you also have very few of the elite sticks on either. So you have a more even mix.
Obviously my comments here are based on limited current time but here's what I saw.
The 1st set of hops were pretty similiar to what i'd say is the norm. Both fights were few on few...cons were either 190's or a 109F...fights were good but mostly plane match up driven not pilot driven. The "score" guys used friendlies as bait...looked to pick only and ran as soon as advantage was gone. So in my opinion game play was worse then the MA in some ways.
2nd set was a nice little furball at low alts. I had already decided i'd use the AvA time to begin working 38 if I was flying allied. Had a few good fights, got picked alot...didnt get to pick much which is 50% poor gunnery and 50% good SA on the other side. Had 1 great fight with a higher 109F that schooled me pretty well. I had to evade other cons a few times but regardless it was a very well flown attack...I actually ended up with a ditch so I have no clue who it was. 50% or more of my being picked was one guy who simply picked the furball in a 190 (3 or 4 other guys commented on him as well)....
So to me this is a "mixed" review as well. Most of the allies were flying hurricanes (not all) so you have a plane set that doesnt encourage a good set of fights IMO. The 109E doesnt have the pop/ammo and the F really has to E fight the canes. On the flip side the allies have no answer for the dweeb in the 190.
I've never really looked at the AvA scoring other then verifying the rank of the leading AvA noob. I'd say that the reality of the historical plane set actually encourages dweebery at the top. I let the dork (#1) up from a field. Gave him my alt and told him to grab as much alt as he wanted.
Well he got up to alt and then tried to lead me right to his ack.
So my biggest initial impression is that you cant combat a guy who simply picks the side with the "best" plane, also that the set forces you to fly a certain way alot of the time. I noticed alot of the guys who were "anti-cane" flying it all night....and I dont blame them.
To me these historical matchups are what the game is all about...in a scenario or FSO enviornment. As far as generic gameplay goes I didnt see any real benifit so far. Now the flip is that I could have flown the 38 as an E fighter and looked to pick the 109s and avoid the 190's....simply didnt fit my goals for the 38. I certainly had some fun and made some progress with the bird. The other option was fly the cane....which i just dont or go to the other side regardless of #'s.
I'll pop my head in anytime I see 7 or more and I'll be curious to see if my thoughts change over time. I know bat and some of the others used to pop in from time to time. I'll see if some of the boys are up to a bit of time in the AvA on one of the "squad nights"....
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Most of the allies were flying hurricanes (not all)
Whats a hurricane?..oh its a drink..gotcha:D :rofl
I dont know why I stay away from it..It dont do it for me or I cant fly it! I get beat up bad in the AVA but I learn as i do..hell last night I only landed once..or should I say I landed once!:D
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Originally posted by humble
I let the dork (#1) up from a field. Gave him my alt and told him to grab as much alt as he wanted.
Well he got up to alt and then tried to lead me right to his ack.
Please do not project any generalities from this particular person's behavior. I think that those who spend any time at all in AvA are in near-unanimous agreement that he is an extreme and belongs elsewhere.
Keep stopping by, Humble. It's as tough to get an accurate picture of the AvA from one or two visits as it is for someone like me to comment knowledgeably on the side-leveling mechanism in the MAs (I can never remember its name).
- oldman (and, the Hurris are gone)
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I intend to, I had fun and got what I came for which is some good work in the 38 in a "fair" enviornment....not one sprayer, "Hoer" or true horde monkey. All the fights were fun...my comments are an attempt to be objective in observation.
If we take the 109E vs the IIc we have very disimiliar fights. The E cant win the IIcs fight and the IIc cant force the fight on the E. So we have a "furball" of a different flavor. You can either "work the furball" or fly a fight you have a preset disadvantage in. In an MA "mixed furball" we have equal variety on both sides. So the IIc (or any similiar bird) has to have an awareness a bit different then a IIc in the current AvA set. In some ways its more challenging but on the flip side is creates a clear "side advantage" for each fighting style.
To be honest I really dont have that big an issue with the guy, beyond the fact that I wanted to fight. I've run into him in an A-20 in the MA a few times and he's got me a couple times and I forced him away a few times. Again he always was the highest guy and fought from the advantage and then left...I was hoping he'd at least offer me a fight on "his terms"...sadly he didnt.
I wont vulch and I wont attack anyone upping under 5k in a "1 on 1". Obviously the more guys like this the less appealing it is for someone looking for a good fight win or lose.
When your quest for "#1" turns you into a zero its a tough thing to see IMO.
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Back to the original part of the post, I for one am looking on this announcement by the Avengers in a favorable light.
Other than there being a lack of Axis oriented Squads, I never really did understand Why "Squads" became looked down upon, in the CT of old, and why that particular sentiment carried over into the AvA. Most of my most memorieable and enjoyable nights in AH were the nights some of the Squads announced what they were gonna do in advance on the BBs, and welcomed any and all to try and stop em. A lot like Filth's Announced Missions.
Most if not all CT regulars knew that on Tuesday and Thursday, there was a "Target Rich Environement" to be played in, with a sense of purpose included, ie. "We the {insert squad name} are going to up a Jabo Mission to kill the Ord factory in grid {insert map grid}. Stop us if you can."
To be honest, I do miss that type of play, and the immersion that came along with it. I do also remember the endless arguements about side balance, when most of the Squads were "dedicated" allied Squads. I also remember a few dedicated players in the CT of old, leaving their Allied Squads and forming an Axis Squad, just to stop the silly arguements. I remember it, because I was one of em. So yes, I freely admit not all was wine and roses. There were thorns aplenty, as well. :)
Do I prefer the AvA to the MA ? Most definately. Do I really like the endless furball between the 2 closest bases in the AvA? Definately not. I do it, depending on the rides available, and the players involved, if it is a better alternative to playing in the senseless BS of the MA. Sadly enough, about half the time, there seems to be more to do or ways to have fun in the MA.
Due to the hours I work, Thursday will likely be the only night I'll be able to show up for an announced "Squad" night, to give em some opposition. Perhaps, on one night a week, there will be a return to the days of old, with squads sluggin it out, using tactics and teamplay against each other.
Everybody in AH is now paying to play. I'm not advocating changing anybody else's mind or playstyle to suit mine. It's yer sub, play with it any way ya want. I'm gonna show up if I can, and have what fun I can find, with whomever I can find. Be it the Avengers, the JG54, the Gunfighters, or any and all individuals that desire a decent fight, before they shoot me down. :lol And know in advance, I'll have no hesitation to simply leave, like everybody else, when whatever is goin on, don't tickle my fancy !