Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AquaShrimp on October 28, 2007, 12:46:04 PM
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ef8_1192841608
Check out how low and slow this Portugese airliner is flying. Hes gotta be just above stall speed, altitude around 100 ft agl. Reminds me of that B-52 pilot who stalled and got his whole crew killed.
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I looked for the airspeed indicator in the video, but couldn't find it, why do you think he was "just above stall"?
It's easy to misinterpret speed w/ big planes, they look like they're going a lot slower than they really are because of scale.
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Don't feel bad Chairboy, you're still pretty new to flying. You'll get the hang of judging airspeeds one of these days. If you need some tips feel free to PM me.
I'm using three factors to judge the airspeed. One, I'm comparing it to the speeds that I saw the UPS cargo aircraft land and takeoff at (I worked at the airhub for six years). Two, I'm judging the airspeed on the angle of attack of the nose, and how the plane loses altitude when the AoA even slightly decreases. Three, the movement of the terrain below the aircraft isn't passing all that fast.
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It doesn't take an amateur pilot or an airspeed indicator to notice he was draggin *ss in that turn. He was close to cartwheeling there and eating dirt.
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Don't feel bad, AquaShrimp, condescension is something you'll eventually grow out of. (rolling eyes)
Look, you're using a visual estimation of groundspeed to determine the only number that matters, which is airspeed. That's simply inaccurate, unless you have the ATIS info from that field for that moment. There could be a 10-20 knot headwind that makes his approach look slower. That, added with the size illusion means that shooting from the hip with "gosh, this guy is dangerous" is a bit silly.
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Who cares if it's close to stall if it is within safe limits. He's probably been doing something like v+5 to v+15. Had it been too close he wouldn't been able to pull up because the plane would've avoided the stall by pushing nose down.
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He's not going that slow. The speed is a little deceptive because of the proximity to the ground and the size of the airplane. Looking at the flap setting and deck angle he's got a way to go before he stalls and is most likely Vshaker + 30 or more...or right around 1.3x stall speed.
I think stalling would have been the least of his problems and worries had the airplane had a premature reuniting with Mother Earth.
I'll chalk a notch up into the that's not the smartest/safest thing to do side of things though.
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Looked like he was putting on a show, but still under total control. Nice bit of flying there. It can't be all that easy to horse around that much airplane.
By the way Aquashrimp....how long have you been a pilot??? Seems kind of odd that you would bust Chairboy's chops on a subject like this when the only experiance you've mentioned is that you worked at a UPS hub when Chairboy is an ACTUAL pilot and might know more about the subject than you do. OPPS I forgot, we've had this discussion before. You know everything there is to know about everything from reading your books and your college education. My bad.:rolleyes:
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Maybe he'll post more facts about the F-14 :lol
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If the airliner was empty no big deal. If it was full of passengers the guy should lose his license.
Unless of course it was full of Iranians in which case :aok
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Hmm, Fishu was able to estimate the airliner's speed too. I guess its an IQ thing.
What does flying have to do with estimating a plane's speed from the ground? I've logged time in about 4 different types light planes, along with a helo too. That irrelevant. I told you how I came up with my estimation of the airspeed.
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That sort of maneuvering that close to the ground was an unnecessary risk regardless of airspeed. That there was an audience and filmer indicates this was not the ordinary approach of an airliner transporting passengers.
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Well being all the cameramen were there I'd guess it was some sort of demo. But he did get his wing crazy close to the ground.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Hmm, Fishu was able to estimate the airliner's speed too. I guess its an IQ thing.
What does flying have to do with estimating a plane's speed from the ground? I've logged time in about 4 different types light planes, along with a helo too. That irrelevant. I told you how I came up with my estimation of the airspeed.
OK I'll bite. You've "logged" time in about 4 different planes and a helo. "About" 4 different planes? You don't know how many different planes you've flown in? What kind of planes? What kind of helo? Was that time logged as the pilot or as a passenger? It does make a differance and it is relevant.
Your factors for figuring out the speed are off as well.
1. You based your stall factor on watching cargo planes landing at the HUB you worked at. I take it those were loaded aircraft you were watching? If the plane in this clip was empty the stall speed would be significantly lower than if the plane was fully loaded.
2. With flaps deployed and flying slow any change in the AoA will result in a slight decrease in altitude until the wing starts generating addtional lift from the increased forward airspeed regardless of if the plane was near stall speed or not.
3. Last but not least you based the speed compared to the relative movement of the plane over the ground without considering the fact that the camera was ALSO moving/rotating to follow the plane in flight from a fixed location while the aircraft was flying away from the camera which creates an optical illusion of slower relative speed.
Your right about one thing though....it is an IQ thing.
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Very nice rebuttal Hornet.
However, heres the facts. I'm clear on what I saw in the video. It was a pilot, flying very slow and low to the ground, in an airliner. He loses altitude at a couple of points, and his wing gets dangerously close to the ground.
For whatever reason, you and Chairboy are horribly confused by this. Its alright to be confused and befuddled. But for those of us who aren't, we can clearly see what is happening in the video.
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Safe is relative. I firmly believe everyone has the right to risk their own life but no one else's without consent. Can anyone translate the audio?
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This video is mislabeled. They are actually speaking Portugese, presumably in Brazil.
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Slow or fast he let his wingtip almost touch the ground.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
This video is mislabeled. They are actually speaking Portugese, presumably in Brazil.
I wondered about the labeling. How did you know they were speaking portuguese? You are correct of course but I wondered if you spoke the language.
Mark
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Originally posted by Mark Luper
I wondered about the labeling. How did you know they were speaking portuguese? You are correct of course but I wondered if you spoke the language.
Mark
comments on video suggest portuguese
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Aquashrimp, why do you keep making this personal? I ask again, how fast was the wind blowing down the runway? Do you understand the importance of this versus groundspeed? I inquire because your posts, between attacks, seem to display an unexpected ignorance about this, especially in consideration of your mighty "time in about 4 planes".
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this plane is a Transportes Aereos Portugueses (TAP Portugal)
it is the national airline of Portugal.
(http://www.kompas.hr/press/20060508/taplogo.gif)
so much for a iran video :lol
best comment is "Unless of course it was full of Iranians in which case :aok "
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I'm no pilot but that looks like a real dumb move for anything except a hot fighter with power and agility to spare (and those sometimes crash too).
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I speak Portuguese, this is the best translation I give:
Voice one: “Tower, this is Ghost rider requesting a flyby.”
Voice two: “That's a negative Ghost rider, the pattern is full.”
Pause…
Voice three: “Maverick, you just did an incredibly brave thing. What you should have done was land your plane! you don't own that plane, Transportes Aereos Portugueses does! Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash. You've been busted, you lost your qualifications as section leader three times, put in hack twice by me, with a history of high speed passes over five air control towers, and one admiral's daughter!”
Voice four: “Penny Benjamin?”
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The ratio of pilot/non-pilots is interesting when tallying opinions on this issue.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I speak Portuguese, this is the best translation I give:
Voice one: “Tower, this is Ghost rider requesting a flyby.”
Voice two: “That's a negative Ghost rider, the pattern is full.”
Pause…
Voice three: “Maverick, you just did an incredibly brave thing. What you should have done was land your plane! you don't own that plane, Transportes Aereos Portugueses does! Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash. You've been busted, you lost your qualifications as section leader three times, put in hack twice by me, with a history of high speed passes over five air control towers, and one admiral's daughter!”
Voice four: “Penny Benjamin?”
That was so wasted when it could have been boollywooded. :D
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Guys, that plane is SERIOUSLY slow.
I dont know what you are going on about. They nearly die!
The wing nearly hit the dirt, the AoA is very high in the turn and its being pulled around by sitting on a certain power setting (I dont think its full power though).
Good pilot, but that flying style is better suited to little planes (and aces high).
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Very nice rebuttal Hornet.
However, heres the facts. I'm clear on what I saw in the video. It was a pilot, flying very slow and low to the ground, in an airliner. He loses altitude at a couple of points, and his wing gets dangerously close to the ground.
For whatever reason, you and Chairboy are horribly confused by this. Its alright to be confused and befuddled. But for those of us who aren't, we can clearly see what is happening in the video.
I'm not horribly confused about anything other than how you think your an expert on what is happening in this video or anything else related to flight.
The viseo is incunclusive as far as the pilot losing altitude to any great extent. The terrain in the background gives the illusion of that due to all the hills and mountains. Where the plane made it's bank off the runway heading there is a hill right in the shot so how can anyone be sure of how close the wing got to the ground. Also in the shot as the plane is heading down the runway you can see off to the right side a bunch of tents and stuff. This might have been an airshow demonstration of some sort in a lightly loaded airliner.
Yes he is low and slow. No doubt about that but your explanation of how you "evaluated" the flight parameters based on your "extensive" experiance while shooting down the opinion of a liscensed pilot that disagrees with your theory is really what is in question here.
All that being said I'll put it in a way you should understand. You have NO clue what your talking about and you opinion of this and most other topics I've seen you post about are worth less than a warm cup of piss. You might actually bring something to the table some day when you realize that your opinion and "facts" are not the finally authority on any subject you choose to discuss.
I wouldn't have even posted in this thread except I read your reply to Chairboy and everything you wrote just had "I'm and idiot and let the beating comence" written all over it and Lord help me, I just couldn't help myself.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
I wouldn't have even posted in this thread except I read your reply to Chairboy and everything you wrote just had "I'm and idiot and let the beating comence" written all over it and Lord help me, I just couldn't help myself.
Oh man! If I didn't already have such a great sig...
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Check out how low and slow this Portugese airliner is flying. Hes gotta be just above stall speed, altitude around 100 ft agl. Reminds me of that B-52 pilot who stalled and got his whole crew killed.
This was TAP airshow in Evora, Sept. 15, a tribute to A-310 fleet which is to be phased out from their fleet.
Flown by TAP chief pilot Cesar Brito with over 4000 hours on A-310. On the right seat was another experienced TAP pilot Vitor Pereira.
The whole program was planned to the last detail and repeated countless times in simulator.
The plane was never bellow Vref +30 (165 knots).
If you google a bit, you'll find clips from different angle where plane appears faster...
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
This was TAP airshow in Evora, Sept. 15, a tribute to A-310 fleet which is to be phased out from their fleet.
Flown by TAP chief pilot Cesar Brito with over 4000 hours on A-310. On the right seat was another experienced TAP pilot Vitor Pereira.
The whole program was planned to the last detail and repeated countless times in simulator.
The plane was never bellow Vref +30 (165 knots).
If you google a bit, you'll find clips from different angle where plane appears faster...
BOOM! Goes the dynamite!
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Originally posted by Hornet33
All that being said I'll put it in a way you should understand. You have NO clue what your talking about and you opinion of this and most other topics I've seen you post about are worth less than a warm cup of piss. You might actually bring something to the table some day when you realize that your opinion and "facts" are not the final authority on any subject you choose to discuss.
Lmao!
:rofl
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
This was TAP airshow in Evora, Sept. 15, a tribute to A-310 fleet which is to be phased out from their fleet.
Flown by TAP chief pilot Cesar Brito with over 4000 hours on A-310. On the right seat was another experienced TAP pilot Vitor Pereira.
The whole program was planned to the last detail and repeated countless times in simulator.
The plane was never bellow Vref +30 (165 knots).
If you google a bit, you'll find clips from different angle where plane appears faster...
So much for the "expert" opinion of a "pilot" with time in an astounding FOUR, yes count them, FOUR, fixed wing aircraft!
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Will AquaShrimp and his boundless confidence grace this thread again? Will the names of those who called him out on his ignorance be added to his 'Ignored:' sig?
Tune in later for the next chapter in this exciting serial of improper condescension, baseless personal attacks, and FOUR DIFFFERENT TYPES of aircraft!
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I never even noticed I made his ignore list. I guess the reply to the "scolding" PM he sent me hurt his feelings. I feel special.
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I rate this thread a 7/10 on the Serenity Post Embarrassment Scale.
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Originally posted by Golfer
I never even noticed I made his ignore list. I guess the reply to the "scolding" PM he sent me hurt his feelings. I feel special.
No need to feel special, I'm on it too. It's not all that exclusive.
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What more do you want me to say? Someone said that the planes minimum speed reached 165knts. Yes, that is about what I thought. It gave me a little bit more confidence in the pilot's ability when someone said he was the TAP Chief Test Pilot. But thats not the end all be all. It was still a zero margin for error flight. Shoot, the pilot who crashed that B-52 was a high hour Colonel.
You can post all the contrary written evidence that you want, the video evidence still shows an airliner hauling around at low altitude and low speed. If there is a video from a different angle that shows the plane was really at 5000 feet, post it then. Thats the first thing everyone always says "Oh its just the video angle".
If I offended some drunk that lives in Virginia, or a fat guy that flies a tiny plane, that was not my original intention, just an added benefit.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
If I offended some drunk that lives in Virginia, or a fat guy that flies a tiny plane, that was not my original intention, just an added benefit.
(http://vivalajorge.com/images/ppw/missedthepoint.JPG)
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Classy, AquaShrimp.
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Originally posted by Golfer
(http://vivalajorge.com/images/ppw/missedthepoint.JPG)
:rofl
LMAO
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Classy, AquaShrimp.
Now wait a minute… He did point out that you are fat; which clearly nullifies anything that you may have said even if other non-fat people agree with you. That really was a brilliant last minute save on his part.
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True.... I guess he wins!
Congrats, AquaShrimp! You bested us all with your relentless logic!
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I have logged time in a Citabria, a C150, C172, C182, Piper Colt, 140, and a Warrior: 7 planes. So far that makes my opinion the most authoritative on this subject.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
If I offended some drunk that lives in Virginia, or a fat guy that flies a tiny plane, that was not my original intention, just an added benefit.
And what makes you assume I'm some sort of drunk??? Please enlighten me with your boundless knowledge. Must be a Virginia joke I've never heard before but once again you have made a statement based on nothing at least as far as calling me a drunk. As far as Chairboy being fat....I couldn't tell you. Never seen a picture of him nor met him in real life.
Next thing you know he's going to say I kick puppies, drown cats and that I'm a member of the Democratic party.
Come on man......can you get anything right??
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
But for those of us who aren't, we can clearly see what is happening in the video.
Dude, that's retarded.
"we can clearly see" is ALWAYS what the ignorant say when talking out of their anus. It doesn't matter if it's a congressman talking about the intertubes or a self-proclaimed aviation safety expert talking about a go around after an aborted landing, it's still nonsense. Half of what I do in my job can be, and has been, mis-interpreted by civilians, pilots and pedestrians alike, simply because although they "clearly see" something I do, they lack the background or actual knowledge to properly interpret what they are in fact seeing. They see but do not actually perceive the truth or context so the conclusions they reach are quite incorrect in spite of clearly seeing whatever it is they saw.
The only thing you can "clearly see" in that video is that the pilot let the wing get pretty damn close to the ground because he began a fairly aggressive turn before climbing very much. That's it. Any speculation about the airspeed is just that, speculation. In my opinion (having flown somewhat more than 4 types of light aircraft) the speed looks just fine, but I would not venture a guess as to how close the plane was to stall speed. I will offer the observation that the plane did not appear to wallow, it's pitch, roll, and yaw rates were consistent with fully controlled flight well above the stall (remember, I TEACH stalls and spins for a living) and although the turn appears to have been made at a stupidly low altitude, it was in fact done in VFR which essentially leaves it up to the pilot as to when to make his first turn on a climbout.
Again, it looks like it was a stupidly low turn, but wild speculation about airspeeds and equally wild accusations and protestations of some sort of expert knowledge is pretty dumb.
IMHO.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I rate this thread a 7/10 on the Serenity Post Embarrassment Scale.
Nah, I say 9/10, I assume he is an adult, though I doubt it now, that being said, he should know better.
He is like a BGBmaw who can spell. :D
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Golfer nailed it.
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:rofl
All this thread now needs is a funny little cartoon strip and it will be perfect.
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Another POV, if you are interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk
Daniel
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(http://www.planebuzz.com/american-retro-classic-pedal-plane-american-airlines-airplane-ride-on.jpg)
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That Airbus A310 was flown well in limits, they wont risk getting into an stall at these alts because that would almost instantly kill them.
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AquaShrimp, there are two big ways you can respond to being wrong about something. Grownups acknowledge their error and go forward. Or, you can stick to your guns in the face of overwhelming evidence and call people names.
You have chosen the latter, and it doesn't reflect well on you. Your credibility has taken quite a hit.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
If I offended some drunk that lives in Virginia, or a fat guy that flies a tiny plane, that was not my original intention, just an added benefit.
So where do you live?
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eagl..give it a break...you haven't flown anything...hehehe; )
and GTO..is that an insult? Please I have never come close to the recockulous remarks this turdlinger has said..
and yes Virgil is fat and Golfer is skinny and chair is a drunk....Did i get that right?
wow what a kook... I think you need to read a book on how to argue kakashrump
true though..I have flown in well over 20 diff types of planes (which makes me an expert)....mostly in the passenger cabin though...and I can tell you ONE THING FOR SURE!!!!! That Pilot MADE ME SPILL MY DRINK...Lo speed Or NOT!!!!
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after studying the videos for a few seconds, it is my opinion that the field is caped and that was a defensive turn to avoid being vulched.
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Originally posted by BiGBMAW
eagl..give it a break...you haven't flown anything...hehehe; )
and GTO..is that an insult? Please I have never come close to the recockulous remarks this turdlinger has said..
and yes Virgil is fat and Golfer is skinny and chair is a drunk....Did i get that right?
wow what a kook... I think you need to read a book on how to argue kakashrump
true though..I have flown in well over 20 diff types of planes (which makes me an expert)....mostly in the passenger cabin though...and I can tell you ONE THING FOR SURE!!!!! That Pilot MADE ME SPILL MY DRINK...Lo speed Or NOT!!!!
Nah that was low of me, your just the worst speller I could think of, but I dont think you would be this lame. Sorry man.
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For what its worth, it's very simple to get an AA5 to hover, or at least come darn close...My best is a G/S around 10 knots...OHHH NO! THE DANGER!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
The ratio of pilot/non-pilots is interesting when tallying opinions on this issue.
Bingo.
He's an armchair pilot acting like he's the profound know it all.
His assumptions of knowing it all about the F-14 was rather revealing.
It takes more than sitting thru the military channel for a few weeks to know aviation.
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gto..I'm using Firefox now it has spell check auto!!
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I once flew a C-150 backwards for 9 miles just for grins..does that make me an expertan? :)
shamus :)
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Originally posted by Shamus
I once flew a C-150 backwards for 9 miles just for grins..does that make me an expertan? :)
shamus :)
I flew an F-150 backward in reverse gear once, over a big hill, I believe I am an expert in "rear axle destruction testing".
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Originally posted by Shamus
I once flew a C-150 backwards for 9 miles just for grins..does that make me an expertan? :)
As AquaShrimp might say, that's CLEARLY impossible. ;)
That's pretty sweet, I'll have to try that one of these days.
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Originally posted by Shamus
I once flew a C-150 backwards for 9 miles just for grins..does that make me an expertan? :)
shamus :)
That makes you a fat, drunk, show boater. :D
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I rode in a turboprop in a thunderstorm once and it made me spill me peanuts. Therefore I shall use my vast pil0t knowledge to say the video is a fake!!
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Originally posted by Pooh21
I rode in a turboprop in a thunderstorm once and it made me spill me peanuts. Therefore I shall use my vast pil0t knowledge to say the video is a fake!!
You sir, are a fat, drunk, show boater too.
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Apparently the stall speed of a 1971 Pontiac Lemans Sport is somewhere above 120mph .. but I have made a reasonably successful water landing in one.
:D
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Has anyone considered that WaterBoy travels a lot and just happened to spend the night at Holiday Inn Express the night prior to posting his analysis of the video?
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The thing is, I don't think we'd be ripping on him anywhere near half as hard if he hadn't been such a p$#&k about it.
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"Grownups acknowledge their error and go forward."
You said it. I've had to eat the big one a time or two here! :)