Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: dhaus on October 31, 2007, 05:34:56 AM
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having just received my x52 and working the kinks out, I'm wondering about using manual trim (mapped to the rotaries). First, do you guys map aileron trim? I figure rudder and elevator are key, but what about the ailerons? For the X52 guys, how do you map the rotaries? 2 bands, or 3 with a middle band as neutral? Finally, most important, how do you use the things? Is it just a matter of getting a feel for how much trim you need for each control surface at particular speeds? Any primers out there? Thanks, dhaus
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I don't bother with rudder but I map aileron and elev trim. I adjust on the fly just as you would with a real aircraft - if you need to hold the joystick off-centre to maintain straight & level flight I adjust trim while moving the joystick back to the centre, keeping the plane level (or the nose where I want it).
I don't use the same joystick so I can;t help you with that.
Trip
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Originally posted by dhaus
having just received my x52 and working the kinks out, I'm wondering about using manual trim (mapped to the rotaries). First, do you guys map aileron trim? I figure rudder and elevator are key, but what about the ailerons?
I don't even have rudder trim mapped to my stick, a it's only real use comes when having asymetrical thrust (one engine out in twin engine fighters).
Elevator is the key indeed, but I almost never use other trims so I don't have mapped them to my stick.
Originally posted by dhaus
For the X52 guys, how do you map the rotaries? 2 bands, or 3 with a middle band as neutral?
If you are using Saitek's profiler software, you should go for the latter option. However, you can also map trim directly to your rotary in AH2. I did that with my X-45 rotaries and found it's much better - it allows faster and more precise control.
For example I fly with combat trim on, but have my elevator trim rotary set to a specific position - for example "up" when about to dive in a P-38 or Bf 109 or some way "down" when entering a dogfight in a F4U. When the need arises, I can disengage combat trim with a single button (I have this also mapped to my stick) and will get my plane automatically trimmed according to my predetermined setting.
Originally posted by dhaus
Finally, most important, how do you use the things? Is it just a matter of getting a feel for how much trim you need for each control surface at particular speeds?
Basically yes. Practice offline or (preferably) in the training arena, you can get used to it quite fast. Also you may decide to use manual trim all the time or only when it's necessary and let do combat trim do the work most of the time (like I do).
Just in case you don't know it already: there is a writeup about trimming on the Aces High Trainer Corps website (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/)
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dhaus,
Have you seen this thread (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198692&highlight=manual+trim)?
It contains truths about analog trim that I've not seen anyone write about that anyone going to rotaries should know about.
Good luck!
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Thanks for all the info! Homeboy, that is exactly the type of material I was hoping to get. - dhaus
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I never manual trim ever and I seem to do ok. If I did manual trim, would that affect my flying much?
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Originally posted by Latrobe
I never manual trim ever and I seem to do ok. If I did manual trim, would that affect my flying much?
Personal preference I think. I'm an old radio control pilot and just like controlling the plane myself.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
I never manual trim ever and I seem to do ok. If I did manual trim, would that affect my flying much?
Manual elevator trim up allows you to push beyond normal compression points in a lot of different planes, meaning you can dive faster without having to reduce throttle or, worse yet, auger.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
I never manual trim ever and I seem to do ok. If I did manual trim, would that affect my flying much?
Depends a bit on plane & playing style.
You don't need to manual trim all the time in any plane, but with planes like P38's, 109's and F4U's (to name a few) you really need to use trim at the edges of performance envelopes. For example getting your nose up in high speed dives or countering the massive pitch when deploying flaps (depending on plane).
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Originally posted by Latrobe
I never manual trim ever and I seem to do ok. If I did manual trim, would that affect my flying much?
Fly a 38 or a ki84 with combat trim off and feel the difference.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
I never manual trim ever and I seem to do ok. If I did manual trim, would that affect my flying much?
Latrobe, as a Spit driver you can offset the nose lift in a fast dive by trimming elevators down. Just be careful not to pull out too hard though or you'll snap the wings.
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I use an X52 and it was easier to set the rotaries up in AH. I had tried it as bands in SST but found better control in-game. If you do it just remember to calibrate them too since they are considered an "axis". I also have my RPM's set up this way I assigned the RPM to the large rotary, Aileron to the small one and elevator to the slider, keeps it all really handy in a tight turning fight.
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I map aileron trim so I can recover plane before it hits ground after I lose half wing..aside from that, K and I are easy to find on keyboard in a pinch
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Using a CH Fighterstick I have all trims mapped to the 4-ways just below the 8 way hat. Directly under the hat is pitch (fwd/back) and roll (left/right). To the left of that way is another hat. It's programmed to zoom map (fwd/back) and rudders (left/right) the red button top left on the stick is my map toggle (esc).
I constantly trim in climb. It becomes a simple affair to go in on a target, take a killing shot or miss, roll belly on and unload. Then pull for a 1K or 2K ROC and gently adjust trim from there. Most folks have a tendency to pull way too many G's which bleeds off E. Setting different climb rates to maintain a certain ROC makes life easy as it provides you with a guaranteed response to what you want the plane to do. For instance, a pony can maintain approx 290 mph for miles at 2K roc after a dive in. Anyone you forced to break cannot maintain that speed with you. As you extend just turn left/right 90 degrees and continue a 2.5K ROC and he won't stay with you at all. A Yak can climb from takeoff to 16K at 230 mph. Not bad, but what's the ROC? If you know that you can pull to it in a fight and let the plane walk away from just about anything out there.
I also use trims for a wounded duck RTB. Lose half a wing? The trims are right there on my thumb hats. Adjust to maintain level flight using pitch and roll then adjust rudder so you don't fly in circles. You land your kills.
I think I counted up all the buttons and hats on my setup (stick and throttle) and came up with something like 39 functions. I use everyone of them. Why use a keyboard for anything but typing a message when you can have it at your fingertips?
Hope this helps.
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Two aspects of flying without combat trim is diving survival and vertical maneuvers. CT works based on the speed of the aircraft so in a steep dive, say, when you're dive bombing for example, with CT on, you continually get nose down pitch trim until it hits the stops. This makes your elevator less responsive on the pull-out and usually forces me to make a hard manual pitch trim up adjust as I'm beginning to pull up. The second is during vertical maneuvers. As you zoom climb, your speed slows, and CT starts adding nose-up pitch trim. As you stall out and come over the top, you'll have an extreme amount of nose-up trim in the aircraft, and will fight the nose-up tendency as you accelerate coming back down. This is one reason you'll find most of the hardcore P-38 guys never use combat trim--very little lateral trim necessary due to the counter-rotating props that minimize lateral instability. Then, they only have to manipulate the pitch trim to maximize their performance, either turning or in the vertical.
There are aircraft that I can't seem to keep trimmed up very well--mostly the high torque variety such as the 109's, Spit14, etc. When I fly these aircraft, I usually manually engage combat trim. After I started flying the P-47 quite a bit, I noticed it was very stable laterally, and required virtually no rudder or aileron trim once you were level and in cruise. So, I started flying with no combat trim in most of the American rides as a result. I almost never auger now coming out of dives, and when I do, its mostly when I have CT engaged. Furthermore, you can get the most out of your zoom climbs and vertical stall maneuvers if CT doesn't give you full up pitch trim due to your speed low.
From a hardware standpoint, I have a CH Throttle which has pitch and rudder trim mapped to a hatswitch. I find I don't use aileron trim that much, unless I'm missing wingtips. When I finally get my CH Fighterstick, I'll have all three axes mapped to get my hands off the keyboard.
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If you are using rotaries for your trims (analog trim) rather than buttons (digital trim), I recommend assigning all three axes. When I first started using analog trim about a year ago, I assigned only aileron and elevator and used a hat switch to control my rudder trim. I found that my rudder trim would often be all the way to one side when I first started a flight. I supposed that was some sort of bug caused by mixing digital trim with analog trim. I finally just assigned my rudder trim to a rotary as well and have flown that way from then on. Since there are so few of us who actually use analog trim (most of the discussion in this thread has been about digital trim), I suspect that not many see this "bug." This behavior could actually have been fixed for all I know as I wouldn't notice it. At any rate, I don't see any reason not to assign all three if you have the pots available.
For whatever it's worth.
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The main difference is manual trim can be dialed in quicker than auto trim, that is the main advantage.
If u go into a steep dive u will notice if u let off your stick it will actaully try to lvl itself out for a few seconds, that is because your auto trim is still set for a few 100 miles an hour back.
Auto trim is designed to autocalculate your trim settings for the speed u are currently flying at. Hence u should be able to let off your stick and center it and u should fly perfectly strait.
The advantage if manual trim is it can dialed in faster than auto, but if u get use to auto trim then there really is not much difference.
The big key is if u end up in a sustained fight then u can switch to manual trim and set your elevator all the way up for a even harder turn.
also for everytime u are on and off the throttle, and speed changes, u will have to manage ailoron trim on the fly as well.
I belive its preference, if u want a more real feal then go with manual trim.
I use auto trim 99% of the time, but will manual trim to pull out of compression or for that extra little push on a turn.
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I have a button that enables/disables combat trim quickly, that way i can switch to manual trim when a fight comes then switch back when i'm safe... or dead. In a fight i find that elevator trim is the one i use the most and frankly i hate tinkering with it on a long flight so i switch CT on.
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Originally posted by clerick
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In a fight i find that elevator trim is the one i use the most and frankly i hate tinkering with it on a long flight so i switch CT on.
Same here only I tend to use the three APs (level, speed, angles) rather than CT. I did what you describe for a while and just got so used to manual trim, I just deleted the CT button from my HOTAS after it sat unused for six months or so.
Though I agree with what everybody is saying here (manual trim definitely broadens the compression window, etc.), as I said before, there is a lot of personal preference in all this.