Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: WMDnow on November 03, 2007, 06:17:20 PM
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The Mosquito *SHOULD* be invisible to radar.
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Havn't seen this one in a while...
It's been asked for before, and the answer stays the same.
donkey
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Originally posted by WMDnow
The Mosquito *SHOULD* be invisible to radar.
Ok, I'll bite...Why?
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Ok, I'll bite...Why?
Think because majority of the plane was WOOD :D
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Originally posted by MjTalon
Think because majority of the plane was WOOD :D
WRONG! it was made of TIMBER! oh wait that is wood. :o
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Originally posted by MjTalon
Think because majority of the plane was WOOD :D
What, wood can't reflect radar? It certainly can. Birds in large enough groups cast radar returns. Just because something isn't metallic doesn't mean it doesn't reflect radar. More folklore. The Mossie was successful because it was fast and particularly suited to its assigned role--not because it was "stealthy".
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It was partially stealthy.
Not totally because it was made of wood, but also its shape.
German radar operators did experience difficulties in trackiing them.
Maybe not invisible to radar, but how to implement a 'difficult to track' part in the game may be problematic.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
It was partially stealthy.
Not totally because it was made of wood, but also its shape.
German radar operators did experience difficulties in trackiing them.
You got some sources where I can look this stuff up Kev?
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Just the metal in the two engines is more than enough to compensate for the wooden spars and skin (which does reflect some radar). I also can't see what in its shape reduces radar signature. Sounds like a typical urban legend.
With the old radars, the difficulty to track it could be attributed to it flying in small formations and not in huge gaggles. If it flew low then yes it could be "invisible" and hard to track.
It also depends what "tracking" means. The way the air-war was controlled was with boards, where the markers were updated from time to time by the hand of people in contact with the radar operators. Saying that this is a slow and cumbersome is an understatement. The Mossies cruise speed was almost twice that of the bombers making the prediction of their current location more difficult. In order to intercept something which is as fast as the interceptors, the planes have to be directed with precision to cut the way of the target. If you fail to predict the correct interception point, the fighters will either never find the mossies (small formations and planes are harder to spot visually from a distance), or find themselves far behind in a long chase.
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I agree with bozon.
I have seen this claim a lot, including in wartime comments, but I've never seen any tests that documented it. I think it was/is wishful thinking. Smaller numbers of faster, smaller aircraft are going to be naturally harder to track on the radar of the day.
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I looked to find anything about it being invisible to radar. But the best I could find was that was hard to track by radar and that it was "stealthy."
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Originally posted by Kev367th
It was partially stealthy.
Not totally because it was made of wood, but also its shape.
German radar operators did experience difficulties in trackiing them.
Maybe not invisible to radar, but how to implement a 'difficult to track' part in the game may be problematic.
Maybe it showing up, then going away...etc etc.
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Shortly after the war in Europe ended the RAF staged Operation Post Mortem. This involved a series of exercises to evaluate the German radar defences. Luftwaffe radar operators enthusiastically cooperated in the exercise and tracked simulated raids of up to 200 RAF heavy bombers and/or 30 Mosquitoes while supervised by RAF specialists.
One thing they discovered was that when there was no RAF jamming, high flying Mosquitoes could be picked up by German long range radar as far as 200km away. The stealth thing is a bit of a myth I'm afraid. It was the Mosquito's high cruise speed that made it a pain to intercept.
Source is the book "A radar history of WW2" by Louis Brown.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
It was partially stealthy.
Not totally because it was made of wood, but also its shape.
There is nothing in the Mosquito's geometry that I can see which would make it partially stealthy. Please do clarify, I'm all ears.
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Originally posted by WMDnow
The Mosquito *SHOULD* be invisible to radar.
You'd be incorrect in your request/misinformation.
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Didn't some of those old radars detect just masses of metal in the air?
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Originally posted by Cypher
Didn't some of those old radars detect just masses of metal in the air?
What do you call a P-51? :D
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Originally posted by Cypher
Didn't some of those old radars detect just masses of metal in the air?
IIRC there were instances where chaff was dropped to confuse the enemy... but my memory could be faulty.
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Originally posted by clerick
IIRC there were instances where chaff was dropped to confuse the enemy... but my memory could be faulty.
"Window"
Was strips of foil tossed or dropped out of bombers to confuse German radars. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.
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Originally posted by Karnak
"Window"
Was strips of foil tossed or dropped out of bombers to confuse German radars. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.
Window worked in the beginning, but as the radar operators wised up and focused on targets that moved, it became less effective. Also this is why CW radar was developed. CW radar only sees moving targets, not stationary ones like Chaff/Window. I have first hand experience with both pulsed radar and CW radar tracking of planes under combat conditions. The difference is like night and day. While one scope was a virtual white-out, the other saw three planes dropping chaff.
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Yup. It dropped in effectiveness as the war progressed. It wasn't hard to figure out what had happened, what, with the sudden appearance of foil strips all over the countryside.
The first night they used it was a smashing success. So much so that some crews thought they had it made from that point out.
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Radar and EW is a game of cat and mouse. The EW is only as good as the surprise it prepares for the radar technology and operators. Then they find a way to cope with it till a new EW method is invented. The is why EW and counter-EW capabilities are one of the best kept secrets in the arsenal and are very restricted in their usage in training to keep them as such.
btw, this is why I seriously believe radar guided missiles are way overrated. They are not useless, but not very high kill probability either. The IAF had a bad experience with them due to EW counter measures. Missiles improved, but so did the EW which is kept as a surprise.
The "windows" were just the first move in the game. Jamming spoofing and decoy methods were all developed used in WWII.
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Originally posted by bozon
btw, this is why I seriously believe radar guided missiles are way overrated.
Up until I got out, the AMRAAM had a 100% kill rate in combat.
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if you want the Mossie to not show up on radar, stay below 200 feet of ground lvl.
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Originally posted by Gaidin
if you want the Mossie to not show up on radar, stay below 200 feet of ground lvl.
Under 500 works too ;)
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Up until I got out, the AMRAAM had a 100% kill rate in combat.
To borrow a line from Dos Gringos....
"Fox 3, the only friend you'll ever need"...
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Up until I got out, the AMRAAM had a 100% kill rate in combat.
Combat vs. who exactly? 30+ year old Iraqi mig 21s?
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Originally posted by bozon
Combat vs. who exactly? 30+ year old Iraqi mig 21s?
I'm sure a few of them were Iraqi's that can't be counted as competitive kills and I can't remember all of the shoot-downs exactly except a few. 1 of course, was the Blackhawk shot down over northern Iraq by F-15's. Two I remember vividly when I personally listened to two Dutch F-16's down two Serbian Mig-29's with two Fox-3 calls, over Belgrade one night back in the Spring of '99. The Mig's were up to fight, not run. Comparing Serbian Mig-29's and Dutch F-16's is a more competitive match up. The pilot scored two kills about 30 seconds apart.
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Didn't some AMRAAM's miss some Mig-25's in 1999?