Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AApumba on November 05, 2007, 10:42:08 AM
-
I'm sure this dead horse has already been discussed but I'm gonna start it again because I was gone from the game when they turned friendly fire off. Ok I'm sure there are quite a few people that remeber when the main arena had friendly fire on. Now I know there were those people would would abuse it by changing countries and hunting down someone they were mad at instead of taking it to the DA but I greatly prefered friendly fire being on rather then the kill shooter. Back when the friendly fire was on no one would cut you off on a kill because they ran the risk of getting shot down along with the enemy con or if they were going to over take you they would let you know so you didn't light em up as they went by. Now people will cut you off, steal your kill and won't even apologize to you when you blow yourself outta the sky. The kill shooter also makes it very difficult for escorts to clear cons off a bomber group's 6 because stray rounds wind up killing the escort before the con goes down, a buff is twice the size of a ftr and is a magnet for random lead. Buffs are made to take punishment and a few stray rounds from an escort aren't going to hurt em but those same few rounds can do lethal damage to the escort planes. Having the friendly fire on also adds a great deal more realism to the game and, in my opinion, more realistic tactics. Instead of people cutting you off for kills they will back you up and fall in on your wing. I would love to see friendly fire come back. I think I would create a more realistic game experience and more country unity. When you accidently shoot a friendly down because of friendly fire you feel really bad and are extra careful not to do it again. With friendly fire off and kill shooter on people could care less wether a countrymen blows himself outta the sky because someone was a dork and cut him off.
-
Originally posted by AApumba
I think I would create a more realistic game experience and more country unity. When you accidently shoot a friendly down because of friendly fire you feel really bad and are extra careful not to do it again.
Absolutely not. Universal carnage & arnachy would rule. Noob's shoot green because they don't know better. Side switchers shoot friendlies to help their squadmates "over there". And most inportant, people would start to shoot each other because "He's a dolt", "A weak scorepotato", "lame furballer and doesn't help the war effort" or just because it is "fun". Add to this the paranoid witchhunt of suspected "spies". And of course, all the revenge killing
Imagine you proudly return to base with 6 kills in a C202 and some green dude just blast's you out of the sky while landing.
No, thank you.
(And what makes you believe that players that don't care if you killshoot yourself on them will suddenly become "responsible" and feel bad because they shot a teammate?)
-
Originally posted by Lusche
Absolutely not. Universal carnage & arnachy would rule. Noob's shoot green because they don't know better. Side switchers shoot friendlies to help their squadmates "over there". And most inportant, people would start to shoot each other because "He's a dolt", "A weak scorepotato", "lame furballer and doesn't help the war effort" or just because it is "fun". Add to this the paranoid witchhunt of suspected "spies". And of course, all the revenge killing
Imagine you proudly return to base with 6 kills in a C202 and some green dude just blast's you out of the sky while landing.
No, thank you.
(And what makes you believe that players that don't care if you killshoot yourself on them will suddenly become "responsible" and feel bad because they shot a teammate?)
^ What he said. Worst idea on the BBs (well... among the worst).
-
I tell you what, I agree completely, but don't think that will change much. This is pretty much a dead horse we're kicking here.
Edit; didn't get post out fast enough.
Agree with AApumba. We have to put up with realism when it comes to skins but not with friendly fire.:huh
-
Kill shoter is a important part of the game and should be left on.
-
Alternatively Turn Friendly Fire off (NOT kill shooter) just no dmg to either if you shoot a friendly.
my 2p's worth.
-
Team Fortress 2 came out recently. While they don't have killshooter, the ability to hit friendlies lasted a very, VERY short time on their servers. It was sheer mayhem. Aces High would be no different.
Unlike Team Fortress 2, Aces High needs kill shooter to have some semblance of responsible shooting. Team Fortress 2 is a cartoon game with no pretentions of reality.
-
......or should I have said 2c worth... in which case that would be about 1.07p's worth...
-
I have been around for 6 years and I have never seen killshooter turned off in the MA.
Can any of you that have been around longer atest to killshooter being turned off in the MA ?
Oh ... that idea sux ... Lusche's explaination says it all.
-
I agree with Lusche, but their is a valid point on this. I fly a Spit, manuevarable they are, super fast they are not. So it is not unusual to be overtaken when I am chasing a con. How about a little courtesy when cutting someone off, so I do not blow my own tail off when you jump in front of my guns? Here I am happily blazing away, and I get boomerang Hispanos into my six because some supposedly "friendly" retard buzzes 100 off my nose right into the cannon fire. This I suppose is more of an ethics thing, rather than a programming issue. My .02cents.
-
We had killshooter turned off in AvA for most of a year....maybe even longer. One night the MAs were down, the crowd moved to AvA and found that killshooter was turned off, and the mayhem began. Skuzzy turned it on there the following day, and we have rarely turned it back off.
FWIW, it really doesn't make a huge difference, unless you're in a big bomber formation, like the scenario guys have been describing for the past few weeks. Assuming that you aren't out to be a spoilsport, it keeps you from trying to fire past a friendly who's already on an enemy's tail, and possibly makes you hesitate just a bit longer in a furball before you press the gun button. It was those little extra touches of realism that converted me from being an initial skeptic to a supporter. I don't really miss it, though, and I haven't heard a clamor for its reintroduction in AvA.
- oldman
-
"Absolutely not. Universal carnage & arnachy would rule. Noob's shoot green because they don't know better. Side switchers shoot friendlies to help their squadmates "over there". And most inportant, people would start to shoot each other because "He's a dolt", "A weak scorepotato", "lame furballer and doesn't help the war effort" or just because it is "fun". Add to this the paranoid witchhunt of suspected "spies". And of course, all the revenge killing
Imagine you proudly return to base with 6 kills in a C202 and some green dude just blast's you out of the sky while landing.
No, thank you.
(And what makes you believe that players that don't care if you killshoot yourself on them will suddenly become "responsible" and feel bad because they shot a teammate?)"
As I said I've been playing this game for a while including when they had friendly fire on. One thing to remember I you're a dork and go start killing friendlys while they are trying to land or something of the like people can just as easily shoot you down in return...therefore then the friendly fire was on people governed themselves and flew by some unspoken rules of conduct that kept instances of people abusing the friendly fire. Also if someone is tracking you don't and killing you intentionaly you can easily report that person for misuse of the server and HT can take whatever action they deam nessary. Things never decended into chaos when it was on before and they won't now.
-
Originally posted by AApumba
As I said I've been playing this game for a while including when they had friendly fire on.
Killshooter was implemented from start in Aces High.
Originally posted by AApumba
"people governed themselves and flew by some unspoken rules of conduct that kept instances of people abusing the friendly fire"
You really believe that would work in today's MA arenas? Unspoken rules do not work. Killstealing, vulching, HO, spying, hiding CVs, switching sides to rive CVs into mayhem - all happening AH, accompanied by much lamento on CH 200. Why should people suddenly refrain from shooting friendlies? And it takes only a small percentage of griefers to start a friendly fire chain reaction.
And my question still stands: You complain about people that do not care about other players killshooting themselfes on their planes, and suddenly the very same pople would become responsible and don't shoot friendlies because of the "unspoken rules"???
The DA once ago had no killshooter. And it didn't work even there, so HTC had to put it back on. So much to the "unspoken rules".
Originally posted by AApumba
"Also if someone is tracking you don't and killing you intentionaly you can easily report that person for misuse of the server and HT can take whatever action they deam nessary."
HTC will surely be happy about this additional workload (incident or deliberate shooting of a friendly?) ;)
-
Originally posted by AApumba
[B Also if someone is tracking you don't and killing you intentionaly you can easily report that person for misuse of the server and HT can take whatever action they deam nessary.[/B]
HiTech has better things to take care of than babysitting.
-
Originally posted by AApumba
As I said I've been playing this game for a while including when they had friendly fire on.
Please tell us when/what year this was. I can't believe for 1 second that HT ever had killshooter of in the Main Arena. Wether is was "then" or "now", griefers would have jumped all over "then", and for sure griefers would jump all over it "now".
I do remember it being off in AvA as Oldman pointed out and also in the DA as Lusche pointed out ... but never in the MA as far back as 6 years.
-
turning ks on would be horrible imho.
In the past few flights I've had, I've seen a few noobs shooting bullets down the runway, boy was I glad ks was on. If it was on, I invision what the old DA was like. You vulched me, so now I'm gonna vulch you. Then each parties bring their buds, and now you have a fight over your base between your team and probably the enemy. I can only imagine this would put the community in a meat grinder and only serve the purpose to ruin the experience of AH.
The other aspect, is that turning ks, removes any responsibility to you. If you have poor SA, and just spraying, what does it matter who gets in the way? Maybe you are chasing a con, another guy wants the kill, so he just blasts you first. Also, shooting a guy because he is shooting at a con, that you feel entitled to, is just as bad.
I think If you have a group of people that are 100% dedicated to flying in a fashion that might resemble a more realistic scenario, then ks off would be fine. but this is the MA, and it would only take 1 person to degenerate gameplay.
My advice, keep playing for fun. If someone shoots the enemy down before you can, next time do it quicker. The minute you stop worrying about who is killed who, how many kills you can land, and what your score is, the easier it is to let these trivial things go.
-
Ya, I 've been around since Tour 28 and don't recall FF ever being a factor. You'd get too many noobs or spoilers in there shooting down team mates just to get a stir. It's fine the way it is. It's never been a problem for me. Can count on one hand the number of times it has been a problem for me. I bet it would have been a larger problem if things had been the other way around.
-
I've been signed up since Tour 3 or 4 and a bit in the beta. Killshooter has always been here. There was no "old days when it wasn't on and people respected the idea of not shooting friendlies."
-
Originally posted by pluck
My advice, keep playing for fun. If someone shoots the enemy down before you can, next time do it quicker. The minute you stop worrying about who is killed who, how many kills you can land, and what your score is, the easier it is to let these trivial things go. [/B]
Don't get the wrong Idea this has nothing to do with scores or the like. I've just gotten a little sick of getting cut off on a kill and blowing myself outta the sky because of someone who IS conserned about their kills blows past me right when I pull the trigger. Either turn the friendly fire back on or start letting people know your going to over take them on a bandit. And the friendly fire thing wasn't that long ago. I started playing back in 02 and it was on for atleast the first year I was playing
-
Back in AW you could shoot friendlies but if you killed 2 you were PNG for 24 hours. So instead, griefers would sit at the end of the runway in vehicles shooting planes taking off just enough to damage them or get them smoking without actually killing them.
That was when there were actually gentleman's agreements and honor among most players. It would never work now.
-
Why has everyone just skipped past my Suggestion?
Turn Kill shooter off, why cant they just make it u CANNOT Damage friendly planes no matter how many rounds you hit them with ???
P.S No point in posting the realism argument either, because Killshooter isn't realistic either...
So yeah why cant HTC just make it so its impossible to kill friendly units... In every FPS game i've played they had 3 settings.
Friendly Fire On (Utter Mayhem always spoilsports)
Mirror Damage (Killshooter)
Friendly Fire Off
Surely friendly fire off is the best option ?
-
AApumba,
You need to work on your situational awareness then. In all the time I played AH I killshot myself fewer than 10 times, and a number of those were me trying to clear a friendly's six and missing the enemy, hitting the friendly. If you are being affected by killshooter regularly the problem is on your end.
Edit:
Connery,
I did address your idea. It wouldn't work because it breaks reality too much.
It fails for these reasons:
1) It does not stop people from shooting over shoulders without risking something. This makes the defender's situation much harder than in reality as you have to avoid the fire of everybody behind you, not just the closest persuer.
2) Hitting a friendly would no longer change the odds. In reality, a friendly being hit changes the odds as the shootee is taken out of the fight. In AH the odds are changed as the shooter is taken out of the fight. In either case the odds are changed in favor of the enemy being attacked. If there was no penalty for shooting a friendly the enemy target would only get the disadvantage of being shot at by multiple persuers and not the advatages, e.g. likely fratracide.
3) Modified to just delete the shooter's ammo does not fix the problem adequately either, as the enemy target is unaware that the shooter's plane has been rendered harmless and must still fight as though both were a threat should the ammoless shooter remain in play and try to threaten just by gaining position.
-
Originally posted by Connery
Why has everyone just skipped past my Suggestion?
Turn Kill shooter off, why cant they just make it u CANNOT Damage friendly planes no matter how many rounds you hit them with ???
Imagine following situation with "no damage to friendlies":
One plane trying get away from a mini horde.
8 greedy pilots following him, each one eager to get the kill. All can freely blaze away and shoot through each other without any risk, no SA is needed.
I don't see where this is any better than the solutionwe currently have, even though I gnash my teeth when becoming an occasional victim of killshooter myself.
-
Originally posted by Connery
Surely friendly fire off is the best option ?
That would really promote ganging if friendly fire carried no consequence.
Originally posted by hitech
1. Some form of control either png or kill shooter must be in the game. It dosn't take a bunch, It only takes one person to abuse the system to destroy everyones day. If one persone choses to shoot friendlies it leaves everyone else with no choice but to shoot him, with in mins 1 big freindly only furbal erupts.
This point has been proven every time kill shooter has been off, take it as a fact.
2. PNG also has problems. I rember a few times when Kite and I were winging together that I would end up PNG, not sure why but some how Kite and I would always end up in the the same space and I would end up pinging him. I would ended up having to fly for a new country when I would rather not have.
3. Almost always it's the shooter fault for the none intential friendly fire, most people say that the other person just got in my way, but thats not realy the case, normaly the person who "gets in the way" is comming from above and has no idea the shooter is there it's the person with the hand on the trigers job to not shoot friendlies, why should the guy getting shot take the penalty for the shooter screwing up?
This is not a new topic, just like how collision detection works, both system are not perferct , but there isn't a perfect answer to the problem.
HiTech
By the way, that quote is from 2001. Killshooter enabled, has been a standard setting. I don't know where the idea of it not being enabled is comming from.
-
Originally posted by SlapShot
I have been around for 6 years and I have never seen killshooter turned off in the MA.
Can any of you that have been around longer atest to killshooter being turned off in the MA ?
Oh ... that idea sux ... Lusche's explaination says it all.
It was off in the AvA a while back. maybe he remembers that
-
It would be just like the old DA. A bunch of squeakers vulching everyone, then in turn getting vulched by others who didn't get vulched. Followed by cries of cheating, I didn't vulch you, you vulched me, blah blah blah. You'd have more green being killed than red almost, and a constant mess over every friendly airfield.
No thanks. I think killshooter works great. Watch your aim, noobs.
-
You may not want to hear this, but, it is ALWAYS the shooters responsibility to know his surroundings. If your situational awareness is bad enough to allow yourself to shoot another friendly it is totally YOUR FAULT and noone elses, no matter what the situation. You should never get so fixated that you don't even know where your friends are.
-
I think we should ask Birdo what he thinks about killshooter.
-
Originally posted by Stang
I think we should ask Birdo what he thinks about killshooter.
WOOOWOOOOO!!!!!!!
:lol
-
AW worked fine IMO.
-
Killshooters not broke, it doesn't need fixing. If your getting KS more than once a tour you need to get out of that horde your flying with. Try flying solo or with a single wingman.
2 on a con, leave it be, it does NOT need 3.
-
Originally posted by AApumba
I'm sure this dead horse has already been discussed but I'm gonna start it again because I was gone from the game when they turned friendly fire off. Ok I'm sure there are quite a few people that remeber when the main arena had friendly fire on. Now I know there were those people would would abuse it by changing countries and hunting down someone they were mad at instead of taking it to the DA but I greatly prefered friendly fire being on rather then the kill shooter. Back when the friendly fire was on no one would cut you off on a kill because they ran the risk of getting shot down along with the enemy con or if they were going to over take you they would let you know so you didn't light em up as they went by. Now people will cut you off, steal your kill and won't even apologize to you when you blow yourself outta the sky. The kill shooter also makes it very difficult for escorts to clear cons off a bomber group's 6 because stray rounds wind up killing the escort before the con goes down, a buff is twice the size of a ftr and is a magnet for random lead. Buffs are made to take punishment and a few stray rounds from an escort aren't going to hurt em but those same few rounds can do lethal damage to the escort planes. Having the friendly fire on also adds a great deal more realism to the game and, in my opinion, more realistic tactics. Instead of people cutting you off for kills they will back you up and fall in on your wing. I would love to see friendly fire come back. I think I would create a more realistic game experience and more country unity. When you accidently shoot a friendly down because of friendly fire you feel really bad and are extra careful not to do it again. With friendly fire off and kill shooter on people could care less wether a countrymen blows himself outta the sky because someone was a dork and cut him off.
If you want to experience this kind of gameplay then fly in the Friday Squad Ops, this would never work in the Main Arenas though. HTC would have to create a policing system for all the losers that would shoot friendlies just to pad the K/D ratios.
Spazz
-
Originally posted by Dace
You may not want to hear this, but, it is ALWAYS the shooters responsibility to know his surroundings. If your situational awareness is bad enough to allow yourself to shoot another friendly it is totally YOUR FAULT and noone elses, no matter what the situation. You should never get so fixated that you don't even know where your friends are.
Everyone is blowing this way outta proportion. I was not saying I run around hitting friendlys all the time and since I've been playing a long time I keep very very good situational awareness, the one time you don't you're dead. But I know everyone in here has had someone come in a "squat" right in thier gunsights right when they pull the trigger and no one can say that it doesn't agrivate them when it happens.
And there are ways to keep the mayhem from happing, why not dock someone some perks if they kill a friendly.
-
Originally posted by AApumba
And there are ways to keep the mayhem from happing, why not dock someone some perks if they kill a friendly.
Too many people don't care about the perks. Or never get enough to care about them.
Wouldn't work.
-
No SA is needed anyway when 2 ppl are chasing the other guy.
and as for guys spraying that happens already anyway
Karnak as I already said the realism argument is not valid as killshooter is most definately not realistic.
-
Originally posted by Connery
Karnak as I already said the realism argument is not valid as killshooter is most definately not realistic.
You saying it does not make it true.
Kill shooter is not realistic, but it produces much more realistic tactics and results than having no friendly fire issues at all.
Thus killshooter is more realistic than what you suggested.
And Connery, SA is required at all times.
-
you know fine well what im talking about karnak. Or would you like me to be pedantic and explain it to you ?
-
Neither killshooter nor friendly fire off is realistic. but I know which is the lesser of 2 evils.
I've lost count of how many times some'1 came past me over me and ludicrously high speed as im making a shot, and im pretty sure a lot of the guys in here have had the same issue and ended up killshooting themselves.
-
Originally posted by Connery
I've lost count of how many times some'1 came past me over me and ludicrously high speed as im making a shot, and im pretty sure a lot of the guys in here have had the same issue and ended up killshooting themselves.
And if you killshoot yourself in this situation it is 100% your fault.
-
I have lost count seeing friendly newbies following me 200 miles around the map trying to shoot me just to die.
Ks is good in ma.In da it's not.
-
Connery,
Killshooter is, by far, the lesser of two evils. I explained in detail why already.
Your SA is your responsibility. YOu need to be aware of the positions of friendlies and enemies, not just enemies.
If you are getting killed by killshooter often it is your problem that you have to learn to fix. I don't play much anymore, but in the years and thousands of kills I got while I did fly I kill shot myself less than 10 times.
-
Originally posted by SuperDud
AW worked fine IMO.
Mine too
-
I don't killshoot MEGA often either, but everytime it's happened theres been nothing I could have done about it.... my SA in those situations was not a problem.
Everytime I've killshot myself probably also less than 10 times (so far) its been unavoidable..and you having played this game for so long will know exactly what I mean.
-
Very rarely it happens, yes. When it does, I shrug and reup.
It is much, much more important to me that some trigger discipline is in the game. The ability for every ganger behind you to fire at you without worrying about friendly fire would cause a massive distortion in combat tactics.
Yes, killshooter is unrealistic, but sometimes in sims unrealistic tools are needed to produce more realistic results due to the nature of players.
-
I think the game is fine just the way it is. I only had 1 instance that kill shooter had me upset enough to turn the game off. Now it is just funny and maybe will give someone else a good laugh. We were working on capturing a vehicle base. I upped a Tiger at about 223 perkies. I was not worried about being killed got to use them perkies up sometime. We rolled onto the base and had some resistance. We took down the guns and were ready for troops. Everyone in tanks was keeping the enemy tanks busy while the m3 rolled in to the map room. The m3 made it to the map room and we captured the base. Right after the capture an enemy panzer was rolling toward our m3 by the map room. I was trying to save him and just as I pulled the trigger on my 88mm ap cannon the panzer drove through our m3 and of course I hit the m3 instead and killed myself instantly!! Now I do not know if the driver of the panzer did that on purpose or not, but if he did that was genius. He also got my kill. At the time I think I had steam coming out of my ears. :furious
Now you are either lyao or you have done something similar and I just brought up bad memories, but either way it is pretty funny now. :lol
-
KS, just like collisions, is not necessarily an ideal solution, but it beats the alternatives. It is fine the way it is, even if it does provide the occasional annoyance.
-
Why do we have to have killshooter on at all? Why can't we have no killshooter, and no damage done to friendlies all at once in the same way we have no friendly collisions?
It doesn't happen often, but the other night I was in a C-hog trying to clear a friendlys 6 and I damaged myself in the process. If there was no killshooter and no friendly fire damage, the it wouldn't have caused either of us any damage..
It works in the TA, why can't it work in the MA?
-
Originally posted by Scca
Why do we have to have killshooter on at all? Why can't we have no killshooter, and no damage done to friendlies all at once in the same way we have no friendly collisions?
The reasons have been outlined a few times in this thread.
but the other night I was in a C-hog trying to clear a friendlys 6 and I damaged myself in the process. If there was no killshooter and no friendly fire damage, the it wouldn't have caused either of us any damage.
Without killshooter, you could have happily blasted away. You could even happily blast away when a whole bunch of friendly cons is flying in front of you. No One has any reason to watch his fire anymore.
It works in the TA, why can't it work in the MA?
No damage to enemy cons or structures does work in TA too...
-
I'd like to see this as the bible on kill shooter. The creator has spoken and it seems to be true to me in my experience. I like #3 the best.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by hitech
1. Some form of control either png or kill shooter must be in the game. It dosn't take a bunch, It only takes one person to abuse the system to destroy everyones day. If one persone choses to shoot friendlies it leaves everyone else with no choice but to shoot him, with in mins 1 big freindly only furbal erupts.
This point has been proven every time kill shooter has been off, take it as a fact.
2. PNG also has problems. I rember a few times when Kite and I were winging together that I would end up PNG, not sure why but some how Kite and I would always end up in the the same space and I would end up pinging him. I would ended up having to fly for a new country when I would rather not have.
3. Almost always it's the shooter fault for the none intential friendly fire, most people say that the other person just got in my way, but thats not realy the case, normaly the person who "gets in the way" is comming from above and has no idea the shooter is there it's the person with the hand on the trigers job to not shoot friendlies, why should the guy getting shot take the penalty for the shooter screwing up?
This is not a new topic, just like how collision detection works, both system are not perferct , but there isn't a perfect answer to the problem.
HiTech
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Now people will cut you off, steal your kill and won't even apologize to you when you blow yourself outta the sky
I was wondering when you would return.....Birdo.
-
It works in the TA because damage is turned OFF in the TA, and because we have trainers ready to eject anyone who is a problem at a moments notice.
It will never work the same way in the mains.
KS is a fact of life, like gravity, sometimes it sucks.
But if your careful about what you do mostly it doesn't kill you.
If it does very often, chances are your doing something wrong.