Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: RifleLance on November 06, 2007, 07:14:10 AM
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Since my handle in the game is SIG220, some have asked about my SIG Model 220 .45 caliber pistols.
Here is a photo of them:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/SIG_45s_online.jpg)
The top one is a full size model 220, with 4.4 inch barrel, and 8 round magazine. The bottom one is a compact model, with 3.9 inch barrel, and short 6 round magazine, like the Colt .45 Officer's model.
Both are several years old, and made when SIG pistols were still 100% Made in Germany.
Note: I am not German, and certainly not a Nazi in any way. I just like these pistols, as they are so very accurate, and good looking. They handle and shoot great.
SIG now has a factory in America, and most of their recent production guns sold in North America now only have frames that are made in Germany, with the Slide and barrel made in the USA. SIG's are unfortunately very expensive handguns. Some of their target models cost over $2,000, and many models now cost between $800 to $1000 when purchased new. But they are worth it, in my opinion.
Lance AKA: SIG220
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I like sigs fine. Like my Kimber better and my cut down Ruger Redhawk 44 even better.
If you have to have a semi auto tho.. the sig is pretty neat. I also like the HK... another german gun.
Besides the Kimber I have an EAA in 45.. it is a cz 75 clone in 45 and it is a well made firearm.. I have a 22 conversion for it and it is an easy gun to change over. 11 rounds of 45 and it has a very 1911 feel to it.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I like sigs fine. Like my Kimber better and my cut down Ruger Redhawk 44 even better.
If you have to have a semi auto tho.. the sig is pretty neat. I also like the HK... another german gun.
Besides the Kimber I have an EAA in 45.. it is a cz 75 clone in 45 and it is a well made firearm.. I have a 22 conversion for it and it is an easy gun to change over. 11 rounds of 45 and it has a very 1911 feel to it.
lazs
I have a number of other guns in other calibers, but the .45 Auto is my favorite, and the one that I would rely on for self-defense.
Here below is the ammo that I have loaded in my .45's You have got to see what this load will do to a watermelon!! Try it, and you will get a big kick out of it. I've yet to see any other .45 bullet with this huge a hollowpoint. It really is nasty!
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/corbon.jpg)
Lance AKA SIG220
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I will try it. You should see what a 44 does to stuff tho. at 100 yards...
I have only tried cor bon in .357 in the past.. for defense I have been using the federal hydro shok in 32, 45 and 44 mag.
I will try some cor bon but the 44 stuff was not real nasty.. they don't seem to like 44's
for shooting I like to use lead and in the heavy weights.. 230 in 45 and 250 or so in 44 soooo.. I want my defense loads to use a heavy bullet so it shoots about the same point of aim. cor bon uses a light bullet.
lazs
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my brother has a 220 and it's a fine pistol. I also prefer the model 1911 and I like my kimber just fine but since I lost 1/2 of my right thumb I now carry a S&W model 649 .357 or a mossberg model 500/590 shotgun. the older I get the more I appreciate the 590 too.
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guess if I lost my right thumb I would probly stick with my revolvers too.. not a bad thing tho in my opinion... for a lot of things.. they are superior.
lazs
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For self defense I use Hornady T.A.P. in my XD carry.
As for shooting a watermelon... they explode easily as liquid doesn't compress so it breaks the rhine..... in an amazing fashion :D
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Originally posted by storch
my brother has a 220 and it's a fine pistol. I also prefer the model 1911 and I like my kimber just fine but since I lost 1/2 of my right thumb I now carry a S&W model 649 .357 or a mossberg model 500/590 shotgun. the older I get the more I appreciate the 590 too.
Sorry to hear about your accident.
One of my son's best friend's just recently lost his entire middle, ring, and pinky fingers on his right hand while working at his job. All he has left now are his thumb and trigger finger on that hand. He like to shoot and hunt too, and he is only 21.
My .45's are for defense outside my home. Like you, I also like the 12 gauge shotgun. Hopefully no home invader ever tries to break into my house while I am home, as I have my FN/Winchester Tactical Auto Shotgun handy nearby in my bedroom. 8 + 1 rounds of semiautomatic 12 gauge makes even a .45 Auto seem minor in comparison.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/SHOT1.jpg)
I sure hope I never have to use it, as my poor house will probably be wrecked if I ever have to fire any shots with it. Hopefully they would just run out of my house, when they saw it pointed at them.
Here is a closeup, showing the electronic heads-up gun sight I have on it:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/SHOT2.jpg)
I keep the gun fully loaded. Just need to flick the safety off, and push the button to turn on the sight, and I am ready to rock and roll.
#4 Highbase Birdshot will do amazing stuff at close range.
Lance AKA SIG220
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Sigs are expensive, my local gun shop in Galway is advertising the Sig P226 for 1,299 Euro/$1,892.
The SIG SAUER P 226 X-SIX is 2,345 Euro/$3,415 :eek:
No wonder the Sig Mosquito is the best seller only 345 Euro/$500.
You have to add to cost of a permit onto that of course which makes it worse. But at least we can buy handguns which is a big change from a couple of years ago.
I know they have a factory in Germany but surely Sig is more of a Swiss company than German?
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I like the Sig but settled on the H&K USP .45
Very nice.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I like sigs fine. Like my Kimber better and my cut down Ruger Redhawk 44 even better.
If you have to have a semi auto tho.. the sig is pretty neat. I also like the HK... another german gun.
Besides the Kimber I have an EAA in 45.. it is a cz 75 clone in 45 and it is a well made firearm.. I have a 22 conversion for it and it is an easy gun to change over. 11 rounds of 45 and it has a very 1911 feel to it.
lazs
Does your EAA have that cool gray finish. I've heard a few foriegners praising them in .38 super, which isn't that popular here in the states. They call them Tangfolios which confused me at first untill I found out they are called EAA here.
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Originally posted by Shuffler
For self defense I use Hornady T.A.P. in my XD carry.
As for shooting a watermelon... they explode easily as liquid doesn't compress so it breaks the rhine..... in an amazing fashion :D
Ah, Hornady is another of my favorite brands of ammo. In fact, their 200 gr Custom load is my second choice in .45 ammo. My SIG's just happen to shoot the CorBon load a little more accurately.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/45auto_hornady.jpg)
I use Hornady VMAX bullets in all of my Varmint hunting ammo. And for my .270 Winchester big game rifle, I shoot Hornady ammo exclusively in it too.
They make great ammo.
Lance AKA SIG220
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Sigs are great but like the other germanic pistol they are all business. All stainless steel. I do wish they would make some of their models with a glossy blued finish all perty like.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Sigs are expensive, my local gun shop in Galway is advertising the Sig P226 for 1,299 Euro/$1,892.
The SIG SAUER P 226 X-SIX is 2,345 Euro/$3,415 :eek:
No wonder the Sig Mosquito is the best seller only 345 Euro/$500.
You have to add to cost of a permit onto that of course which makes it worse. But at least we can buy handguns which is a big change from a couple of years ago.
I know they have a factory in Germany but surely Sig is more of a Swiss company than German?
I don't know all the details of what happend with the various mergers that SIG was involved with. All I know is that both of my SIG 220 pistols say MADE IN GERMANY on them, as you can see here:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/madeingermany.jpg)
And I've read articles about the SIG pistol factory, again pointing to it being located in Germany.
There have been so many mergers in the firearms industy in recent decades, that they are hard to keep track of. Beretta now owns and controls so many great many European makers now.
My own FN/Winchester tactical shotgun is a good example. It has the Winchester name on the gun, but then you see further on it that it was made by FN in Belgium, and assembled in Portugal.
Lance AKA SIG220
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Ive carried the 220 for about 8 years now. Ive never once had the thing choke on ammo, and Ive put about everything thru it. The .45 has always gotten badguys attentions. They may not be rocket scientists but they know what the big hole at the end of the barrel means with a .45.
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No stainless here. Much smoother recoil and better accuracy than the 1911. Trust me, I have a lot of years with the 1911.
Handload my own Hornady XTP 240 grain jacketed hollowpoints.
(http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/images/products/usp/general/USP_large_rightangle.jpg)
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MADE IN GERMANY :Can't get any clearer than that:lol I only mention it because our police bought the Sig P226 as the standard handgun for their detectives and our Emergency Response Unit (uniformed officers are unarmed) and it was described as Swiss. Did a quick google and yes Sig were Swiss but they bought Sauer in Germany. Hence the Sig-Sauer.
From the same article it was said that the Dublin gangsters prefer the Sig P226 to the Glock 17 as they found it more 'reliable' :( Which, if you think about it is quite important in gangland shootouts:O Somehow, though I don't think that kind endorsement will be used by Sig anytime soon.:rofl But it's useful to know, nonetheless.
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my son in law has the USP in .45 and I have one in .40S&W that I bought back in 1995. it too is a fine choice and it's a tack driver at up to 25 meters for me.
That's a mighty fine home defense shotgun. I have the 590 at home and the 500 in the office at the shop.
a few years back I was in the shop alone working on a project at about 2200 during a weekday night. the neighborhood where my shop is located is on the wrong side of the tracks consequently the feral types prowl during the hours of darkness but we are well known in the community and most folks don't mess with us. anyway on this night two zombie types come through the open perimeter gate and approach the open fabrication bay where I was in the back scrolling some sheet to be cut out for a gate at home. they ask me if I wanted to buy some rock. I reached for the shotgun and racked the slide. you want to talk about guys running? afterwards I went and closed then locked the perimeter gate. no sense in tempting the devil.
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Nothing quakes the heart like the sound of a shotgun being racked at close range.
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I have one of the older 220s. We are required to carry DAO autos and a lot of guys didn't buy the 220 due to the heavy DAO. It doesn't bother me cause it reminds me of the pull on the S&W 686 I carried for years. While it aint a tack driver it is the most dependable semi-auto Ive ever seen.
I carry the 200 grn speer +Ps in it but Ive also carried 230 grn Hydras. In my opinion SIG makes the best semi-auto handgun and I would never buy anything but.
We have a slew of autos approved for carry now but I'll always stick with SIG.
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Originally posted by 1cajun
Nothing quakes the heart like the sound of a shotgun being racked at close range.
Two things happen when you rack a shotgun, one; the perp knows your armed, two; the perp knows about where you are. Never think racking a shotgun will necessarily mean the person will flee.
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suave.. yeah.... tanfoglio they are cz75 copies.. accurate and it is really really easy to switch calibers.. takes about 5 seconds.
I like the trigger on a good 1911 like the Kimber. hard to beat that. My Kimber is more accurate than any other 45 I have shot.
recoil on 45's? you guys are kidding right? they don't kick at all to me... more like a little push in the hand.
my carry gun kicks.. I mean really kicks.. it is a smith and wesson 340 scandium in .357 with compact wood grips.. the gun weighs 12 oz.
my hands are large and I can't get a good grip on the thing so it kicks me pretty good. No fun to shoot but the best carry gun I have ever seen.
lazs
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Two things happen when you rack a shotgun, one; the perp knows your armed, two; the perp knows about where you are. Never think racking a shotgun will necessarily mean the person will flee.
well so far its worked 100% of the time one occasion two running away, besides I never keep a round chambered so I always have to cycle the action.
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Here it comes.....
First of all I am not saying a Glock is better then a Sig except in just a few situations.
If you don't to shoot fast. A Sig is fine.
If you don't want to shoot fast and accurate, a Sig is fine.
So please understand there are plenty of folks out there for which a Sig as a perfectly acceptable gun. Generally speaking, the ones that don't shoot, and for sure the ones that don't want to shoot fast and accurately.
The folks that seem to really like their sigs are the ones that talk about owning a Sig alot.
Sigs sit too high in your hand, causing alot of "flip", which pulls the gun up off target much more then other guns.
Second, the trigger pull is LONGGGGGG, and the reset is much LONGERRRRRR. Which makes shooting fast and accurate MUCH harder. And it also causes alot of failures to reset the trigger.
Next, on alot of guns their is a "bump" on the left side of the grip which forces your hands to hold the gun even lower on the grip, which just makes the flip even that much larger.
The "OLD" mags actually use to come apart if you get in a hurry and loaded them into the gun to hard. Gee, and do you think in a gunfight, that MIGHT happen?
And if that weren't enough, they don't even make good paper weights, since they don't lay flat on the paper, but instead rock a bit. See, I was trying to find a good use for them.
And for the privilage of carrying this "sled" you get to pay a HIGH Price Tag.
You see, there is a reason most of the top shooter use a 1911 or a Glock. The egronomics are similar. If a Sig had them, then they would be using them.
And PLEASE don't make the same mistake the gun manufacters are counting on you making. And that is to think because a Law Enforcement Agency carries them, they are good.
I PERSONALLY know Sig almost GIVES them away to the LE Agencies just to bait the civilians into thinking they are good. NOPE SUCKERS. But I guess there enough born to keep it going.
And please before anyone jumps online to brag about how there Sig is awsome. Please ask yourself if you fall into the catagory of shooters I described. If you don't shoot in competition agains others, then you probably don't see how other guns do in the hands of other good shooters. And think this, if you want to win, and can shoot any gun you want to. Wouldn't you shoot the fastest and best? And then go look at what those shooters are shooting to win?
Terror
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Originally posted by 1cajun
Nothing quakes the heart like the sound of a shotgun being racked at close range.
I think the sound of one being fired would beat that. Hehe :D
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Originally posted by Terror If you don't to shoot fast. A Sig is fine.
If you don't want to shoot fast and accurate, a Sig is fine.
blablablabla...
Heh, you tell 'em, Jack Bauer.
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Originally posted by Terror
Here it comes.....
First of all I am not saying a Glock is better then a Sig except in just a few situations.
If you don't to shoot fast. A Sig is fine.
If you don't want to shoot fast and accurate, a Sig is fine.
So please understand there are plenty of folks out there for which a Sig as a perfectly acceptable gun. Generally speaking, the ones that don't shoot, and for sure the ones that don't want to shoot fast and accurately.
The folks that seem to really like their sigs are the ones that talk about owning a Sig alot.
Sigs sit too high in your hand, causing alot of "flip", which pulls the gun up off target much more then other guns.
Second, the trigger pull is LONGGGGGG, and the reset is much LONGERRRRRR. Which makes shooting fast and accurate MUCH harder. And it also causes alot of failures to reset the trigger.
Next, on alot of guns their is a "bump" on the left side of the grip which forces your hands to hold the gun even lower on the grip, which just makes the flip even that much larger.
The "OLD" mags actually use to come apart if you get in a hurry and loaded them into the gun to hard. Gee, and do you think in a gunfight, that MIGHT happen?
And if that weren't enough, they don't even make good paper weights, since they don't lay flat on the paper, but instead rock a bit. See, I was trying to find a good use for them.
And for the privilage of carrying this "sled" you get to pay a HIGH Price Tag.
You see, there is a reason most of the top shooter use a 1911 or a Glock. The egronomics are similar. If a Sig had them, then they would be using them.
And PLEASE don't make the same mistake the gun manufacters are counting on you making. And that is to think because a Law Enforcement Agency carries them, they are good.
I PERSONALLY know Sig almost GIVES them away to the LE Agencies just to bait the civilians into thinking they are good. NOPE SUCKERS. But I guess there enough born to keep it going.
And please before anyone jumps online to brag about how there Sig is awsome. Please ask yourself if you fall into the catagory of shooters I described. If you don't shoot in competition agains others, then you probably don't see how other guns do in the hands of other good shooters. And think this, if you want to win, and can shoot any gun you want to. Wouldn't you shoot the fastest and best? And then go look at what those shooters are shooting to win?
Terror
:rofl :rofl :rofl
I'll keep my P-220 and my 1911, and you can have all the Schlocks you want.
And no one I know shoots a Schlock as a race gun, either. And yes, I used to carry as a LEO.
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Springfield XD .45 ACP.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
:rofl :rofl :rofl
I'll keep my P-220 and my 1911, and you can have all the Schlocks you want.
And no one I know shoots a Schlock as a race gun, either. And yes, I used to carry as a LEO.
Funny, as much as this board has changed over the years it is still exactly the same way in others.
You can always depend on Terror to come into a auto thread and say something to the effect of "dont take this wrong, I am not saying sig make ****ty guns, but they do of course and the mightly glock will own them in every way and sig owners are stupid and just talk about guns and dont shoot them"
IE makes a retard out of himself.
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while the glock is a fine choice in weapon I personally don't care for them.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Sigs are expensive, my local gun shop in Galway is advertising the Sig P226 for 1,299 Euro/$1,892.
The SIG SAUER P 226 X-SIX is 2,345 Euro/$3,415 :eek:
No wonder the Sig Mosquito is the best seller only 345 Euro/$500.
You have to add to cost of a permit onto that of course which makes it worse. But at least we can buy handguns which is a big change from a couple of years ago.
I know they have a factory in Germany but surely Sig is more of a Swiss company than German?
My understanding is, the Swiss have very strict export laws. So to be able to sell them outside of Switzerland they went into business with Sauer to make the guns in Germany. I have not kept that close of a watch, but I don’t thing Sig has ever been bought out or changed hands.
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Originally posted by storch
while the glock is a fine choice in weapon I personally don't care for them.
Exactly, much like cars, there is no such thing as "the best" handgun, but if I had to make a call I would say the 1911 would be "the Best" and the glock would not make my list.
Anyone that fanatical about a gun choice is not going to give you reasonable advice.
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*Yawn*
(http://www.safari.pl/images/REWOLWERY/300-320Walker.jpg)
Big gun needs a big picture. ;)
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Wow BIG PHOTO ^^^
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I really like my Springfield XD45.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q37/acfireguy26/xd1.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q37/acfireguy26/slide-backv21.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q37/acfireguy26/hope018.jpg)
The top 2 pics are not of my actual XD45 but are a closer picture showing more detail.
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Actually an XD puts the hand in a more natural position than the glock... which I have always found to have an odd angle. Making the HD much easier to shoot accurately. My XD45 is the Tactical 5 inch and I carry that.... not the smallest but just fine. I keep one clip in with 12 and none chambered... then 2 extra clips. I keep a mossy in my truck.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
IE makes a retard out of himself.
Appreciate the personal attack, but respect it.
Glocks are extremely reliable, accurate, and easy to use firearms. From 4 years experience in competition, I see Glocks, more than any other firearm being used.
And to show you what a Glock can do in a Master level shooters hands see the championship list on TeamGlock's Dave Sevigny page (http://teamglock.com/dsbio.htm) and Sevigny Performance HomePage (http://www.sevignyperformance.com/).
After spending a day training with Dave, he really shows you what a Glock can do with the right training and practice. It's amazing.
T
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Actually an XD puts the hand in a more natural position than the glock... which I have always found to have an odd angle. Making the HD much easier to shoot accurately. My XD45 is the Tactical 5 inch and I carry that.... not the smallest but just fine. I keep one clip in with 12 and none chambered... then 2 extra clips. I keep a mossy in my truck.
I owned an XD. The trigger was spongy and not precise. Most places I asked about it said "get used to it" or "send it back to Springfield for a trigger job" (for a nominal fee). I decided it wasn't worth the extra effort or money, since I have the Glocks, so sold it. Got what I paid for it, so was wasn't to upset with it. Used the money to purchase a Ruger GP100 .357Mag Revolver to replace it. Very happy with the GP100.
T
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Originally posted by Terror
Appreciate the personal attack, but respect it.
Glocks are extremely reliable, accurate, and easy to use firearms. From 4 years experience in competition, I see Glocks, more than any other firearm being used.
And to show you what a Glock can do in a Master level shooters hands see the championship list on TeamGlock's Dave Sevigny page (http://teamglock.com/dsbio.htm) and Sevigny Performance HomePage (http://www.sevignyperformance.com/).
After spending a day training with Dave, he really shows you what a Glock can do with the right training and practice. It's amazing.
T
I don't dispute any of that.
Glocks are fine firearms. As are the Springfield SDs, but I don't have to like them no mater how hard you preach.
Your problem is your religion is Glock.
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Originally posted by Terror
Generally speaking, the ones that don't shoot, and for sure the ones that don't want to shoot fast and accurately.
The folks that seem to really like their sigs are the ones that talk about owning a Sig alot.
You are by far the most opinionated and biased person that I ever have heard speak about guns. And if you think that posting your bogus disclaimer before you then proceed to do just the very opposite and make such extremely biased criticisms of the choices of others somehow means that you are not being totally oblivious and headstrong, well, no one here is going to buy such nonsense from you. So you have chosen to own and shoot Glocks, well that's fine with me. Everyone is entitled to their own personal preferences and choices. So how about showing us what an expert you are at shooting your Glock? Go ahead and post a photo here of yourself with your Glock.
At least posting a photo would prove that you actually OWN a Glock, and are not some kind of want a be who just pretends at being a gun owner.
The notion that SIG handguns are not accurate is one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever heard. I've shot all types and brands of guns, and both of my SIG .45's will out-shoot my Glock 17 easily.
I have found that people who like to flame and bash the opinions of others are usually folks who conveniently hide behind the anonymity of ridiculous and silly handles. They get some kind of immature thrill out of acting out online. Anyway, that is what I have observed over the years.
Here is a photo of me at the range with my son Todd, just after I had bought us our matching father-son pair of compact SIG .45's I'm holding the very first target that I shot with mine at 25 yards, using an extended grip 8 shot magazine with the gun. All but one of the shots touched the bullseye, and this was just using the factory fixed sights as they came from the factory. A number of the shots went into one big ragged hole.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/us_45s_online.jpg)
I've been shooting handguns since I was 15 years old. When I was in my late teens and early 20's, I used to practice at the Coyote Point range right next to Steve Reiter all the time. In fact, he was there at the range shooting just about every time I went there to practice. However, that was a couple of decades before he started winning all of his national handgun shooting championships at Camp Perry.
You come across to me as being a most disrespectful, arrogant, and opinionated person. You need to lighten your superiority attitude big time.
Lance AKA SIG220
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Your problem is your religion is Glock.
Like you, I also have high regard for the Springfield XD series. While I have never owned one, the two guns belonging to friends that I have shot both had triggers pulls much superior to that of the Glock. I found them much easier to shoot accurately, compared to the accuracy that I have had shooting Glocks.
My first Glock was a model 19 shortly after they came out. But it shot so very bad for me, that I later sold it and replaced it with a Model 17. But I have never been able to get comfortable using the Glock Striker trigger, and never shoot my Glock 17 anymore. The XD comes across to me as a much improved design over the Glock. However, I personally like the older traditional DA/SA pull that the SIG offers, with an initial Double action pull, and crisp Single action pulls after that.
What this TERROR ( an appropriate handle for him, in my opinion ) doesn't get is that other people may have very different experiences and impressions of guns than he does. His intense fervor is very much like that of a religious fanatic. You really hit the nail on that with your observation of him.
Lance AKA SIG 220
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SIG220, the finger on the trigger instead of along the slide is unforgivable but... nice pic.
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Speaking of sigs hogue makes nice wooden grips for them now. Used to be if you wanted custom wood grips you would have to order them from a company in europe.
I got some checkered cocobolo grips because I like to say cocobolo. Anyway I'm quite pleased with them.
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I don't like blocks. don't want to own one. I don't kill paper and steel for a living or a sport tho. If I wanted a gun that did one thing good.. did well in competition.. pretend gun fights... I would probly have a block.
But... I would have to forget everything I already learned in almost 50 years about handguns. They don't point right.. they don't feel right and they have a trigger that I would not accept on anything but a last ditch firearm.
I am not all that big a fan of semiautos anyway but the block goes way overboard for me... It doesn't look or feel like a real gun and it has a crummy trigger.
I think that for new guys they are fine.. if you don't care for form and only function.. if you don't reload and you don't shoot at any ranges farther than the indoor range and you don't ever need it to stop anything tougher than a human.
But.. there is something to pride of ownership.. it may not be all that tangible but.. if you have a black plastic gun.. you just have a black cheap looking tool.
You don't really want to use it much (competition excepted). You don't take pride in the thing except as how good a tool it is.
I want metal and wood in my firearms.. I want a good trigger that acts like a trigger should.. I want single action or single action capability for that shot I need to make (and I have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds out of double action revolvers).
I want to see the hammer.
blocks are great competition guns. I don't compete.. I can't think of any situation that you would use a gun for that resembles what blocks do well in competition. Unless you are some special forces rescue team that can't afford long guns.
face it.. for concealed carry... a j frame smith is all you will ever need. a .357 j frame is more than enough to stop anyone.. and.. if they are too far away for that... they are no threat anyway.. if I need to reload... I shouldn't be in the fight but.. a jet loader will put in 5 fresh ones real quick.
For playing around... I like wood and steel.. history..feel.. fun. I shoot the kimber a lot but hate cleaning up the brass... for serious plinking.. I use revolvers.
I would not feel at a disadvantage with the black powder revolver shown..
The guy who wins those competitions... I bet he really is good. I bet I can find more than a few that can kill him before he clears leather tho using a hundred year old plus black powder revolver. they are still fastest in the world for first shot.
I bet I can beat his block at 300 yards. I bet that he can't beat the revolver record for fastest timed 6 shots on target. even seven.
I bet he can beat everyone on the "course" tho.
Nothing wrong with that.. just as there is nothing wrong with the other shooting sports... that does not make a firearm overall superior to one or the other tho.
I would own a sig or a hk over the block tho.. I would just put up with the fact that in certain events... the block would beat me. I don't really care... I don't compete in em and don't even care to watch em.
lazs
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This thread (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176523) has a picture of my safe. I will have to get the collection out and take some pics. Have a few trophies too. See if I can fit those in for ya...
Yes, I have a predisposition to Glock firearms. They have proven their capabilities to me over and over again. After being trained on and shooting Sigs, I determined they are definitely inferior to the Glock line. And on top of it all, they end up costing 100-150% more than their Glock equivalent.
Revolvers are great guns. My GP100 is an extremely fun gun to shoot. While firing it single action, 75yrd and 100yrd shots are surprizingly easy. (Could probably get more range out of it, but have never attempted anything farther.) Other than the requirement to reload more often, and the heavier weight, revolvers are a great carry/defense weapon.
Other auto's are fine also: 1911's, HK, XDs, and even FN are outstanding auto's. Just Sig sits on the bottom of the list, in my opinion.
You are by far the most opinionated and biased person
Every post on this thread is opinionated and biased, starting from the opening post. I hold Glock in high regard and point out what I feel are failings in the other auto's. It seems that every other poster is doing the same thing about his/her choice/non-choice in firearms....
The notion that SIG handguns are not accurate is one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever heard.
Didn't say they weren't accurate. I said they were hard to be "fast AND accurate". Get the demonstrated grouping with 10 rounds in say ... 8 seconds at 10yrds. Thats actually pretty slow for competition standards.
Terror
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(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f47/gtora2/Glocks.jpg)
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first we have a Sig 229, with a DAK trigger, chambered in .357sig. this is my primary carry piece for work. i practially stole it for $395 with 3 high cap. mags and night sights. (i think the guy at the gun shop priced it wrong)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/Sig229.jpg)
next we have an XD45. my weekend carry gun for work. i like the feel, the capacity (14 rounds w/ extended mag), the trigger pull (a little smoother than a Glock), the price (just over $500)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/XD45.jpg)
XD40, same as above with a smaller bullet. got it cheap off a friend that needed cash.
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/XD40.jpg)
Glock 22. this was my first pistol that i bought when i started working for the armored car company. was cheap, had high-cap mags and night sights. glocks are great bang-for-your-buck guns. they do take a lot of practice to get a feel for. but once you have it, they can be a nice gun for the money.
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/Glock22.jpg)
to be contiued.....
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next is a Colt 1991A1 compact. who doesn't like a 1911 style handgun. i like this one because its a little smaller than a full size. its easier to carry.
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/Colt1991A1.jpg)
Sig 239. chambered in 9mm. a bit smaller than the 229. DA/SA trigger. nice carry piece.
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/Sig239.jpg)
Taurus PT111. got this one cheap too. haven't fired it yet.
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/TaurusPT111.jpg)
Kel-Tech .380ACP, nice backup. it's only acurate for 10yards or so. a lot of reviews were bad on this one because people take it to the range and blow off a lot of rounds with them and they don't last. it's not a range gun, its a backup.
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/Kel-Tech.jpg)
and finally, this is my first pistol i ever bought. got it right after i came home from boot camp. its a Colt 1911 gov. model. too big to carry all the time, can't use it at work because it's SA. sweet gun to shoot though.
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/100_0188.jpg)
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I have a taurus mil pro 3rd generation DA/SA in .40 SW. I've put over 1000 rnds through it without any problems. In fact so far it's been more reliable than my p239 (it failed to go into battery once). It's not terribly accurate but it does what it was designed for completely. The action and barrel are very robust, nothing on it is going to wear out anytime soon, while at the same time it's light weight for it's size. They had a lot of teething problems with the first generations of the Mil Pros and I was a little wary at first but so far mine has been nothing but good. The trigger is a little weird but like I said it fills the role it was designed for all the time.
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Originally posted by Terror
Here it comes.....
First of all I am not saying a Glock is better then a Sig except in just a few situations.
If you don't to shoot fast. A Sig is fine.
If you don't want to shoot fast and accurate, a Sig is fine.
So please understand there are plenty of folks out there for which a Sig as a perfectly acceptable gun. Generally speaking, the ones that don't shoot, and for sure the ones that don't want to shoot fast and accurately.
The folks that seem to really like their sigs are the ones that talk about owning a Sig alot.
Sigs sit too high in your hand, causing alot of "flip", which pulls the gun up off target much more then other guns.
Second, the trigger pull is LONGGGGGG, and the reset is much LONGERRRRRR. Which makes shooting fast and accurate MUCH harder. And it also causes alot of failures to reset the trigger.
Next, on alot of guns their is a "bump" on the left side of the grip which forces your hands to hold the gun even lower on the grip, which just makes the flip even that much larger.
The "OLD" mags actually use to come apart if you get in a hurry and loaded them into the gun to hard. Gee, and do you think in a gunfight, that MIGHT happen?
And if that weren't enough, they don't even make good paper weights, since they don't lay flat on the paper, but instead rock a bit. See, I was trying to find a good use for them.
And for the privilage of carrying this "sled" you get to pay a HIGH Price Tag.
You see, there is a reason most of the top shooter use a 1911 or a Glock. The egronomics are similar. If a Sig had them, then they would be using them.
And PLEASE don't make the same mistake the gun manufacters are counting on you making. And that is to think because a Law Enforcement Agency carries them, they are good.
I PERSONALLY know Sig almost GIVES them away to the LE Agencies just to bait the civilians into thinking they are good. NOPE SUCKERS. But I guess there enough born to keep it going.
And please before anyone jumps online to brag about how there Sig is awsome. Please ask yourself if you fall into the catagory of shooters I described. If you don't shoot in competition agains others, then you probably don't see how other guns do in the hands of other good shooters. And think this, if you want to win, and can shoot any gun you want to. Wouldn't you shoot the fastest and best? And then go look at what those shooters are shooting to win?
Terror
I see your Glock and raise you an HK USP 45. There is no comparison.
I can empty any handgun fast and on target. I'm confused at what your point is?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I see your Glock and raise you an HK USP 45. There is no comparison.
I can empty any handgun fast and on target. I'm confused at what your point is?
HK USP are nice. Expensive, but nice. And have seen some reliability issues in competition. The couple times I have seen them fail, the shooter was running reloads, so it was probably ammo related.
Point is: Shooting is tough, SIG makes it harder. IMO
T
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Originally posted by Terror
HK USP are nice. Expensive, but nice. And have seen some reliability issues in competition. The couple times I have seen them fail, the shooter was running reloads, so it was probably ammo related.
Point is: Shooting is tough, SIG makes it harder. IMO
T
sheesh, I know why the average LEO can't seem to hit a barn from inside the barn. it's those glocks that just don't point natural like. if the colt model peacemaker is the best naturally pointing handgun then the glock has to be down there in the amoeba slime pit. it just does not point naturally for me. I wanted to like the glock but it just simply does not work in my case.
sig is fine to me and the USP in my opinion is is simply the best of the plastic guns unless you have smallish hands.
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Kel-Tech .380ACP, nice backup. it's only acurate for 10yards or so. a lot of reviews were bad on this one because people take it to the range and blow off a lot of rounds with them and they don't last. it's not a range gun, its a backup.
this little gun has helped me meet my commitment to myself to be armed most of the time. if you can run 200 rds thru it without a jam, i call that good to go. it allows me to always observe RULE #1 for gunfighting.
but in the back of your mind you keep wondering if its gonna go off. thats why I carry my model 60 when I can. but the model 60 is enough of a PITA that I would hardly ever carry it unless there was a special reason. I wanted to try the Airweight 38/357 to see if i could hack hauling that around every day, but its pricey.
I agree that a j frame gun is certainly adequate for concealed carry defense... there was a BSO Deputy killed with his own .38 at 0815 this morning, shot in the upper chest. One shot. I'm guessing it was a 4-5 inch barrel tho. The round somehow came out his lower back. The exact scenario is unknown so far. He was transporting a felon to a hearing. The shooter was caught later, at about 1300 without incident.
So off duty I carry the sw mod 60 when I can, and the .380 when i can't. :)
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Originally posted by Terror
HK USP are nice. Expensive, but nice. And have seen some reliability issues in competition. The couple times I have seen them fail, the shooter was running reloads, so it was probably ammo related.
Point is: Shooting is tough, SIG makes it harder. IMO
T
Again. What does emptying a Magazine have to do with the "Quality of the gun"?
Mine wasn't expensive. I've put reloads and even lead through my HK. Only 2 rounds out of 6,000 have failed to eject properly. It was cheap PMC ammo I purchased at my range. They witnessed it, and gave me Winchester white box in exchange. Before you say "Haha!". My buddy also on the same trip used the PMC ammo in his Glock 23 and he had the same issue in his gun.
SIG's are a top notch gun. You are too brand biased for a serious discussion in firearms Terror. I'll take my "overpriced USP 45" loaded with 13 rounds of 230gr CorBon over anything else. Why? It will fire when it needs to.
FWIW, I disagree with your statement that "Sig is at the bottom of the list". That title belongs EXCLUSIVELY to Beretta. Their handguns are chit.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Again. What does emptying a Magazine have to do with the "Quality of the gun"?
Mine wasn't expensive. I've put reloads and even lead through my HK. Only 2 rounds out of 6,000 have failed to eject properly. It was cheap PMC ammo I purchased at my range. They witnessed it, and gave me Winchester white box in exchange. Before you say "Haha!". My buddy also on the same trip used the PMC ammo in his Glock 23 and he had the same issue in his gun.
SIG's are a top notch gun. You are too brand biased for a serious discussion in firearms Terror. I'll take my "overpriced USP 45" loaded with 13 rounds of 230gr CorBon over anything else. Why? It will fire when it needs to.
FWIW, I disagree with your statement that "Sig is at the bottom of the list". That title belongs EXCLUSIVELY to Beretta. Their handguns are chit.
I guess I'm not for sure where the disagreement is here. I agreed that the HK is a nice firearm. Expensive because the average new retail price of a USP is about 50-75% more than the price of an equivalent Glock. And the only reliability issues I had witnessed were probably ammo related.
Prices I found for the HK USP were:
Compact 700-850
Standard 800-950
Tactical 900-1100
Which firearm is "bottom of the list" is probably even more of an opinion than what is on top. Barretta definitely sit on the lower side of the list.
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SIG's are indeed inferior handguns that should be avoided. Here is another photo that I took when I bought these two SIG 220 Compacts for my son and I. These were both older 100% German made guns, and the gun had a different model designation of 245 back then. Now, they just call it the 220 Compact.
In between the guns is the factory test target that came with the handgun that I kept for myself. And as you can see, my little .45 is obviously a substandard gun.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/Sig_Twins.jpg)
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sig220.. that is some good grouping at 25 yards.
moneyguy.. sorry about not returning your last night.. I was real busy.. nice firearms.
I still like the 340 PD in scandium for carry.. 12 ounces.. .357 mag that is utterly reliable in both form and function and is the easiest gun to carry and get into action anyone has ever devised. you can get used ones cheap too.. lots of guys bought em and simply can't handle the recoil.
most of the block guns you can't really carry concealed in any real way. Not unless it is winter say.
The 340 goes in a front pocket.
lazs
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Originally posted by Terror
I guess I'm not for sure where the disagreement is here.
This
Originally posted by Terror
Here it comes.....
First of all I am not saying a Glock is better then a Sig except in just a few situations.
If you don't to shoot fast. A Sig is fine.
If you don't want to shoot fast and accurate, a Sig is fine.
So please understand there are plenty of folks out there for which a Sig as a perfectly acceptable gun. Generally speaking, the ones that don't shoot, and for sure the ones that don't want to shoot fast and accurately.
And please before anyone jumps online to brag about how there Sig is awsome. Please ask yourself if you fall into the catagory of shooters I described. If you don't shoot in competition agains others, then you probably don't see how other guns do in the hands of other good shooters. And think this, if you want to win, and can shoot any gun you want to. Wouldn't you shoot the fastest and best? And then go look at what those shooters are shooting to win?
Terror
Again, the "rapidity" of shooting is not even a concern of a "good shooter".
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I still like the 340 PD in scandium for carry.. 12 ounces.. .357 mag that is utterly reliable in both form and function and is the easiest gun to carry and get into action anyone has ever devised. you can get used ones cheap too.. lots of guys bought em and simply can't handle the recoil. - Lazs
I don't see why anyone would let recoil bother them enough to sell a great defensive carry gun like the 340pd - unless they just cannot hang on to it. but most adults should be able to. its not like they'd notice the recoil shooting it on some very very bad day when they're in a corner.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Again, the "rapidity" of shooting is not even a concern of a "good shooter".
Comes from competition and defensive shooting. Fast and accurate are the order of the day. Two to the body, one to head, transition, two to the body, one to the head, transition, two to the body, one to the head. Or 1,1,2,1,1 for a tactical order/sequence drill. Multiple threats require fast and accurate.
T
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gunthr... the reason is pretty simple.. You are correct that "most" people would not sell them just because of recoil but....
cops.... cops bought em for backup and carry off duty.. the rub was... now they got to qualify with em... with full house loads. I think you can see where this is going...
the gun does kick.. I am not in the least recoil concious but.....
This is a whole new world of handgun recoil.
lazs
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Originally posted by Terror
Comes from competition and defensive shooting. Fast and accurate are the order of the day. Two to the body, one to head, transition, two to the body, one to the head, transition, two to the body, one to the head. Or 1,1,2,1,1 for a tactical order/sequence drill. Multiple threats require fast and accurate.
T
Please, do not teach this to anyone. Shooting a "suspect" in this manner is borderline "mayhem" in some instances.
This has NO BEARING on the Glock, none whatsoever. Just an attempt to "make yourself appear to be a good shot". In all of my dealings at the ranges that I have been too have been the following. Those who bark the loudest, get silent quick.
Also, in the eyes of a prosecutor, the "Mozambique technique" isn't something to be proud of.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I don't see why anyone would let recoil bother them enough to sell a great defensive carry gun like the 340pd - unless they just cannot hang on to it. but most adults should be able to. its not like they'd notice the recoil shooting it on some very very bad day when they're in a corner.
Shot one?
I think I put 9 or 10 rounds throuhg Laz's Grun did atleast 20.
I won't be shooting it again, it bruised my hand for 3 days.
Bar none the heaviest recoil I have ever felt in a handgun, it is what I imagine a normal little firecracker going off in your hand feels like.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Shot one?
I think I put 9 or 10 rounds throuhg Laz's Grun did atleast 20.
I won't be shooting it again, it bruised my hand for 3 days.
Bar none the heaviest recoil I have ever felt in a handgun, it is what I imagine a normal little firecracker going off in your hand feels like.
I'm gonna have to come out there and shoot with you two (lazs & yourself). I have no doubt that it would be something other than fun.
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I like my USP 45 Tactical the very best....
I have Sig, several HKs, several Glocks, and others.... HK rules.
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Originally posted by TalonX
I like my USP 45 Tactical the very best....
I have Sig, several HKs, several Glocks, and others.... HK rules.
No question about that in my eyes, BUT unlike Terror. I hold the Sig in the same class. Glocks are good but I do not like the ergonomics.
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Shot one?
I think I put 9 or 10 rounds throuhg Laz's Grun did atleast 20.
I won't be shooting it again, it bruised my hand for 3 days.
Bar none the heaviest recoil I have ever felt in a handgun, it is what I imagine a normal little firecracker going off in your hand feels like. Gtora2
LOL Thanks for that insight there Lazs, has the ring of truth.... have to qualify with it and use dept. issued ammo too. i guess its just too many rounds for them.... i think about 48 for the course. :D
Gtora2, I've got to shoot this this thing... obviously the light weight + round boot grip +357 = sore hand. the good thing about that gun is that you can always fall back to 38 plus P's....
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Charleton Heston is my president!!
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Originally posted by storch
sheesh, I know why the average LEO can't seem to hit a barn from inside the barn. it's those glocks that just don't point natural like. if the colt model peacemaker is the best naturally pointing handgun then the glock has to be down there in the amoeba slime pit. it just does not point naturally for me. I wanted to like the glock but it just simply does not work in my case.
sig is fine to me and the USP in my opinion is is simply the best of the plastic guns unless you have smallish hands.
For me the USP does feel right at all. I dont know why but it feels awkward and just does not sit right in my hand. The Glock does on the other hand and I have no issues with it. I do prefer a Kimber 1911 over anything else. Damn nice firearm. I may have tp pick up a XD 45 just to be sure though.:D
I tried a Sig out for about 9 months and it just did not do it for me.
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i fired a Smith 10mm today at the range. got an instant woody, i want one.
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Originally posted by moneyguy
i fired a Smith 10mm today at the range. got an instant woody, i want one.
I don't know why the 10mm never caught on. it is a powerful enough pistol cartridge, adequate for anything requiring man stopping. I shot one in a colt delta which is a 1911 when they first emerged in the mid 1980s and was impressed.
I waited a bit to see if the cartridge would catch on and sadly it never did so in 1993 I purchased a .40 S&W instead, first an S&W model 411 which is wildly inaccurate and then an H&K USP. in time, with much tinkering and after many many rounds I figured out how to make the model 411 work for me. the S&W mod 411 is my favorite fun pistol especially when I go to the range shooting. I often shoot with LEPs from my town and they often bring new friends, as the conversation inevitably turns to how well a man can shoot I'm asked to bring out the nasty 411. the new guy can't hit anything with it while those of us in the know hit black every round. that 411 is worth it's weight in gold on those occasions.
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Two reasons the 10MM never caught on. First, the gun it was originally intended for, the BrenTen, never really made it into production, for several reasons, mostly money. Second, the FBI almost adopted it after the infamous Miami Shootout, but because of recoil and a couple of other factors, adopted the 40 Short and Weak instead.
I like 10MM, but store bought ammo is expensive and hard to find, so that hurts it for personal defense. Dan Wesson makes a 1911 pattern 10MM that I'd like to have but it is expensive. Actually, 10MM is a lot like 41 Magnum, besides being very close in ballistics in many loadings, they both have very small but very dedicated followings.
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The EAA I have is interesting... it has the low barrel like the block guys like for that 30 rounds at thirty bad guys in 5 seconds thing that is so important in a defense gun and... it is basically a convertable handgun.. it is one gun in dozens of calibers.
Mine is in 45 auto. I have a 22 kit. I could buy a 9mm or 10 mm kit or 357 sig kit for it.. conversion takes about 5 seconds or so. I have shot one in 10 mm.
I have not shot a semi auto pistol yet that I thought had recoil.. including some desert eagles.
lazs
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I've been contemplating a tangfolio witness as a fun gun. Like I said some forieners I know praise it and .38 super. That's a rare ammo here and I'm not ready to admit that I'm old enough to be a reloading guy. Thoughts on .38 super ?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Please, do not teach this to anyone. Shooting a "suspect" in this manner is borderline "mayhem" in some instances.
This has NO BEARING on the Glock, none whatsoever. Just an attempt to "make yourself appear to be a good shot". In all of my dealings at the ranges that I have been too have been the following. Those who bark the loudest, get silent quick.
Also, in the eyes of a prosecutor, the "Mozambique technique" isn't something to be proud of.
Every defensive shooting class I have been to has taught tactical sequence with follow ups to the head.
Per Tyler CourtHouse Shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting)
A local resident, Mark Allen Wilson, was returning to his nearby apartment when the shooting began. Wilson, who held a Texas concealed handgun permit, is believed to have responded to seeing Arroyo shoot his wife by drawing his own weapon, a Colt .45 caliber pistol and approaching. Arroyo was already engaged in a heated gun battle with sheriff's deputies and Tyler police officers and apparently did not see Wilson.
Wilson fired one round at Arroyo, causing him to stumble. A witness saw the round strike Arroyo and saw "white puffs of powder-like substance" come from Arroyo's clothing. This appeared to be the first time Arroyo was hit or injured during his attack on the courthouse. Wilson then took cover behind Arroyo's truck.
As Arroyo approached, Wilson stood up and fired again at Arroyo over the truck, hitting him; however, Arroyo was wearing a bulletproof vest, and Wilson's shots did not disable him. Arroyo turned and fired at least one shot at Wilson, who faltered and disappeared from view behind the truck. Arroyo then fired at him three times, killing him.
Arroyo was wearing body armor and withstood several .45acp hits to the body from Wilson. It seems two to the body and one to the head is definitely a worthwhile drill to practice and be able to utilize in a hostile situation. "mayhem" or not.
The ability to quickly and accurately followup with shots and being able to transition smoothly to multiple targets has a direct bearing on survivability in a hostile situation. IMO, Glocks make this easier than SIGs. Period. SIGs are just harder to be fast and accurate with.
Terror
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Glocks are horrible guns.
That is all.
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terror... if I hit someone with my .357 or 44 mag.... wearing body armor.... at a close enough range that I need to shoot him.... I will have all the time in the world to get any second shot I want at him while he tries to shake off the effets.
If I am going to shoot at people with body armor... I am gonna want a rifle and a new place to live.
I am not into this fantasy fun shooting. you take your time quickly and hit em first time... if you miss.. you take more time and hit em. if they stay down... great.. if they don't... you shoot em again. if they have 20 friends... you are just screwed if they don't all run away anyway... if they are on some urban jihad.. then I guess I will be regretting not getting a block and putting thousands of rounds into plates and paper as fast as a block can cycle.
otherwise.. I will be fine... just like in all the gunfights I have seen or read about... lots of spray and pray... no good... deliberate shots.. good.
suave.. I like the 38 super just fine but in all honesty... I have not been impressed by it's accuracy... I hear the new ones that headspace on the rim are quite accurate but I really see no reason for the round.
lazs
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Maybe, just maybe, Sigs are more difficult for YOU and some people you know to shoot accurate and fast. I can agree with that, and find it to be a lot more honest.
For the most part, a Glock is a decent weapon of good quality. However, I find them to be both ugly as Hell and unwieldly for my own personal taste and use. My shooting/hunting partner has several Glocks, as well as a few Sigs, a couple of H&K's and various other stuff. The Glocks he likes, but less than the others. And now that he's had his hands on my Para Ordnance P-14, he's in love with the 1911 pattern. Try as I might, I cannot make myself happy with ANY of his Glock pistols. I can shoot them fairly well. But I can grab one of our P-220 Sigs, or one of my 1911 pattern pistols and it's like we were made for each other. My brother has a Taurus 45, I don't remember which model. To me, it shoots like crap, but he and his wife shoot it fairly well. I can put it down and pick up a Sig or a 1911 pattern and I can put 3 times as much lead into 20-60% less area in 1/3 the time.
To me, most, if not all of the polymer pistols, the Glock especially, do not naturally point well at all, and the feel I get from the operation of the action is incredibly annoying and distracting. A Sig or a 1911 is exactly the opposite. They both point as natural as a Colt SAA, a Ruger Blackhawk, or my Dan Wesson. And the feel I get from the action operating is perfectly natural. Of course, the 1911 is my favorite. John Moses Browning was a genius the likes of which we are not likely to see again. The 1911 is a perfect killing weapon, it is ergonomically correct, for both hands (I don't REALLY need an ambidextrous thumb safety, it's just nice). It goes INSTANTLY to the target without any conscious thought at all, and no adjustments. The Sig is a fairly close second.
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I shot a .38 super in mexico or maybe brasil it shot ok. the reason they used that round in those places is because they are not allowed to carry a weapon chambered in a military round. since the 9mm parabellum is the military round in most countries the civilians must have a different caliber weapon. the .38 super is very close ballistically to the 9mm parabellum.
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Originally posted by lazs2
terror... if I hit someone with my .357 or 44 mag.... wearing body armor.... at a close enough range that I need to shoot him.... I will have all the time in the world to get any second shot I want at him while he tries to shake off the effets.
If I am going to shoot at people with body armor... I am gonna want a rifle and a new place to live.
In the incident from my previous post above, the shooting took place in front of the court house in Tyler, Texas. A town of around 80,000 people. Not a place you would think of as a hot bed of crime and violence. The bad guy was hit several times with .45acp and didn't have to "shake off the effects". (.45acp is no slouch, it doesn't have the muzzle energy of 357mag, but it still hits freaking hard.) He was finally brought down by a rifle shot to the head.
I'm not advocating "spray and pray". I'm advocating "fast AND accurate".
T
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the guys who shot him were trained in your dicipline... not mine.
lazs
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Terror IS correct on the tactical shooting part. And no, a double tap by itself, nor even a follow up to the head, will NOT get you prosecuted for murderous intent, not by themselves. If the shooting is justified, you need only claim, honestly, that the first shot, and even second or third, did not stop the threat.
The probability of confronting an opponent with body armor is VERY slim, although the possibility does exist. However, a good double tap will at least slow the opponent down enough to allow you to assess the situation. Few people are qualified to take head shots with handguns in a high stress situation. Once the subject is somewhat incapacitated, and an assessment made, then the need for a head shot can be seen and the shot taken. But on a FULLY ambulatory and healthy target, head shots for most people are a high risk prospect at best.
The 38 Super, in a good weapon, probably a 1911 pattern is best, is a fine cartridge. It is accurate and powerful while being manageable. But yes, ammo is hard to come by, much like 10MM. I'd like to have a 38 Super 1911, and I thought about one for my wife, to justify it. If she was more dedicated, and had slightly larger hands, I'd get her one. But she's happy with her Taurus 445 in 44 Special.
Reloading ain't just for us "old" guys. It's a great, and practical hobby. A few hours a week with a relatively inexpensive set up can produce a lot fo good ammo affordably. If you shoot big stuff like I do, or you shoot a lot, or both, I don't see how reloading could be avoided, unless you have plenty of money. A budget reloading setup can pay for itself in a years worth of shooting. As brass, copper, and lead get higher, it'll take even less time.
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Originally posted by storch
I shot a .38 super in mexico or maybe brasil it shot ok. the reason they used that round in those places is because they are not allowed to carry a weapon chambered in a military round. since the 9mm parabellum is the military round in most countries the civilians must have a different caliber weapon. the .38 super is very close ballistically to the 9mm parabellum.
Actually, 38 Super is hotter than 9MM. A few years ago, 38 Super became very popular again because 9MM couldn't make major power factor safely for competition shooting. But 38 Super could easily. After a while, some one came up with a stretched 9MM that made major. But it was essentially a crossbreed that didn't really fit the spirit of the rules, even though it got by.
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Originally posted by Terror
In the incident from my previous post above, the shooting took place in front of the court house in Tyler, Texas. A town of around 80,000 people. Not a place you would think of as a hot bed of crime and violence. The bad guy was hit several times with .45acp and didn't have to "shake off the effects". (.45acp is no slouch, it doesn't have the muzzle energy of 357mag, but it still hits freaking hard.) He was finally brought down by a rifle shot to the head.
I'm not advocating "spray and pray". I'm advocating "fast AND accurate".
T
Again, you're talking about a rare case, a guy with body armor on that was determined to kill people. And still, your average citizen is not going to be well trained enough to take head shots on a target that is fully ambulatory AND capable of shooting back. Yes, a highly trained soldier or LEO could, and maybe a competitive shooter. But your average concealed carry permit holder just is not going to be up to that task, and a Glock ain't gonna magically make him into Leatham, Keonig, Munden, or Miculek. And neither is a Sig or a 1911. You're fooling yourself if you think it is, and doing anyone who believes you a great disservice.
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Originally posted by lazs2
the guys who shot him were trained in your dicipline... not mine.
lazs
No idea what discipline Mr Wilson studied for his firearm. Sounds like his shots landed and were accurate, just had little effect due to the body armor.
T
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
But your average concealed carry permit holder just is not going to be up to that task, and a Glock ain't gonna magically make him into Leatham, Keonig, Munden, or Miculek. And neither is a Sig or a 1911. You're fooling yourself if you think it is, and doing anyone who believes you a great disservice.
Never said a Glock was "magically" going to make you a good shooter. You MUST practice often and religiously to be a good, consistent shooter, no matter what firearm you choose to use. I said, in my opinion, a Glock was easier to be fast and accurate with than a SIG.
T.
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Originally posted by Terror
I said, in my opinion, a Glock was easier to be fast and accurate with than a SIG.
T.
For YOU, not others. This is where your posts on said subject are null and void.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
For YOU, not others. This is where your posts on said subject are null and void.
I am pretty sure that *my opinion* is mine. By your standards, every persons post on this subject, including yours, is null and void. We are each sharing our own experiences and opinions on the subject.
I have backed up my opinion with what *I feel* is strong evidence that Glocks are superior to SIGs. Other people have disagreed and given their own reasons/evidence. Doesn't mean any, *including mine*, are "null and void".
T
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Originally posted by Terror
I am pretty sure that *my opinion* is mine. By your standards, every persons post on this subject, including yours, is null and void. We are each sharing our own experiences and opinions on the subject.
I have backed up my opinion with what *I feel* is strong evidence that Glocks are superior to SIGs. Other people have disagreed and given their own reasons/evidence. Doesn't mean any, *including mine*, are "null and void".
T
stop arguing when someone has a different opinion. you've stated yours more than enough times.
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Originally posted by moneyguy
stop arguing when someone has a different opinion. you've stated yours more than enough times.
So how does a discussion happen if you cannot state a rebuttal to a persons opinion/point? Seems thats the whole point of a discussion board. You know, point/counterpoint, etc etc...
T
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Actually, 38 Super is hotter than 9MM. A few years ago, 38 Super became very popular again because 9MM couldn't make major power factor safely for competition shooting. But 38 Super could easily. After a while, some one came up with a stretched 9MM that made major. But it was essentially a crossbreed that didn't really fit the spirit of the rules, even though it got by.
I didn't know the difference between the two rounds so I looked it up and you are correct the 38 super is indeed a better performer on paper.
9x19mm 115gr fmj 1180fps/356ftlbs
.38 super 115gr fmj 1395/497
.40 S&W 155gr 1140/447
on paper it hits better than the .40 S&W
I won't run out and buy one though.
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Originally posted by Terror
So how does a discussion happen if you cannot state a rebuttal to a persons opinion/point? Seems thats the whole point of a discussion board. You know, point/counterpoint, etc etc...
T
so far all you've done is tell everyone how wrong they are and how right you are. a number of times.
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Originally posted by storch
I didn't know the difference between the two rounds so I looked it up and you are correct the 38 super is indeed a better performer on paper.
9x19mm 115gr fmj 1180fps/356ftlbs
.38 super 115gr fmj 1395/497
.40 S&W 155gr 1140/447
on paper it hits better than the .40 S&W
I won't run out and buy one though.
No doubt, the 38 Super is NOT for everyone. It is a good intermediate round, I'd MUCH prefer it to 9MM or 40 Short and Weak.
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Originally posted by moneyguy
so far all you've done is tell everyone how wrong they are and how right you are. a number of times.
And they tell me how wrong I am and how right they are. Seems like a good discussion to me. How else is a discussion with differing sides supposed to work? Point/Counter-point....right??
T.
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Originally posted by Terror
And they tell me how wrong I am and how right they are. Seems like a good discussion to me. How else is a discussion with differing sides supposed to work? Point/Counter-point....right??
T.
No. Your "point" is since the "Sig doesn't fit your needs, it's a steaming pile." Farther from the truth. Your other "point" is that "The Glock is the best pistol for fast and accurate." Again, this is farther from the truth.
You posted ripping on a Sig 220, which in the firearms community, is one of the finest pistols manufactured. I personally haven't fired one, but I have seen em up close in action. I have watched my buddy (and have also fired it many times) put 20,000 rounds through a Pre Ban Sig 226.
Your initial post had so much bias it never was a "point".
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Originally posted by Terror
In the incident from my previous post above, the shooting took place in front of the court house in Tyler, Texas. A town of around 80,000 people. Not a place you would think of as a hot bed of crime and violence. The bad guy was hit several times with .45acp and didn't have to "shake off the effects". (.45acp is no slouch, it doesn't have the muzzle energy of 357mag, but it still hits freaking hard.) He was finally brought down by a rifle shot to the head.
I'm not advocating "spray and pray". I'm advocating "fast AND accurate".
T
I'd rather have my rifle.
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yep terror.. I don't think you want to take that one incident and make it seem typical... you need to read marshal on stopping power and gunfights.. real gunfights aren't like any contest I have ever seen. being shot at is not like any contest I have ever seen.
read the case studies.. no matter what the training.. it was the man who did the job.. if he freaked.. he didn't do well.. if he was calm he did well.
I will add.. any gun that you are good with is better than any gun you are not.
Oh.. holden.. they do make a grip frame for the block now that puts it at the 1911 angle.
The 38 super? I guess if you get the right barrel that headspaces on the case mouth.. you got an accurate gun with power near .357 levels.
still tho.. in real life.. the old .357 is still king of the one shot stop..
long live the king.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
read the case studies.. no matter what the training.. it was the man who did the job.. if he freaked.. he didn't do well.. if he was calm he did well.
Please link to the "studies". What I have read is that the training and experience is what makes the difference. With good training and alot of practice, survivability chances are increased by large margins. Staying "calm" is worthless if you have no idea what to do in the situation. You will fall back on your training when stress levels make full thought out decisions impossible. And good training would definitely assist in the "staying calm" department.
No one incident is "typical". Be prepared for as much as possible.
Originally posted by Masherbrum
You posted ripping on a Sig 220, which in the firearms community, is one of the finest pistols manufactured. I personally haven't fired one, but I have seen em up close in action. I have watched my buddy (and have also fired it many times) put 20,000 rounds through a Pre Ban Sig 226.
"If you don't want to shoot fast and accurate, a Sig is fine" is exactly what I said. Never said one couldn't put 20,000 rounds down range. I have have spoken with ALOT of folks in the "firearms community" that agree. I even stated why I think they make it hard to be "fast and accurate".
"Sigs sit too high in your hand, causing alot of "flip", which pulls the gun up off target much more then other guns.
Second, the trigger pull is LONGGGGGG, and the reset is much LONGERRRRRR. Which makes shooting fast and accurate MUCH harder. And it also causes alot of failures to reset the trigger."
Lazs, I agree the 357mag is a great round. I just don't practice enough with my revolver to feel competent enough to use it as a carry gun. It's a fun gun to take to the range and take my time with, but I would not want to get caught in a situation with it. Thought about using a Glock in 357SIG, but will probably stick with the lowly Glock26 with Winchester Ranger 9mm +P+ 127gr SXT.
T.
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Originally posted by Terror
Please link to the "studies". What I have read is that the training and experience is what makes the difference. With good training and alot of practice, survivability chances are increased by large margins. Staying "calm" is worthless if you have no idea what to do in the situation. You will fall back on your training when stress levels make full thought out decisions impossible. And good training would definitely assist in the "staying calm" department.
I have have spoken with ALOT of folks in the "firearms community" that agree.
T.
Then your circle of "geniuses" forgot to mention that when the watermelon hits the fan, training only gets you so far. Applying said training under fire is another story. If you think otherwise, then you are all ego.
BTW, I can empty 3 full mags quickly with a Sig (probably faster than yourself and be center mass. I guess all of your "training" isn't as good as your making out to be...
Give me any gun Terror, I'll have no problems. I carried a POS Beretta Tomcat and reverted back to a J frame S&W .38. It was more accurate and I could reload with good dexterity. I qualified 4 times a year for 3 years. I still go to the range every other week. Keep in mind I never picked up a gun until 1998.
On another note Sig220, why you use the 165gr Cor Bon? I use the 230 gr CorBon .45 +P myself. I thought about going to the 200 gr. "Flying ashtray".
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Glocks are horrible guns.
That is all.
Negative
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Then your circle of "geniuses" forgot to mention that when the watermelon hits the fan, training only gets you so far. Applying said training under fire is another story. If you think otherwise, then you are all ego.
BTW, I can empty 3 full mags quickly with a Sig (probably faster than yourself and be center mass. I guess all of your "training" isn't as good as your making out to be...
I completely agree, you still have to apply the training. But without the training (and continuous practice), remaining calm is just as worthless as completely loosing your mind when bad poop comes knocking...
Now on claim #2. Lets get together and have some fun. I'll bring my Glock collection. I make it up to Grand Rapids, MI about twice a year. Shall we visit a range together up north? Or if you come out St Louis, MO way, let me know. I'll be happy to host you at the gun club!
T.
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If I have nothing going on when you come up, sure. As I've stated before Terror, folks like yourself that say "I'm a good shot", aren't. Any professional shooter I have met, claims otherwise and are very humble.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
If I have nothing going on when you come up, sure. As I've stated before Terror, folks like yourself that say "I'm a good shot", aren't. Any professional shooter I have met, claims otherwise and are very humble.
I guess I don't remember claiming to be a "good shot". I have put alot of rounds down range with many types of firearms, but I am by no means a "Master" level shooter. I have a full time job and a family that keeps me from practicing on a daily basis to maintain that level of skill.
My primary point in this thread is, IMO, the SIG line of handguns are not the best choice for "fast and accurate" shooting.
T
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Someone wanted a picture of me with a Glock. Finally found an action photo of myself shooting a Glock26.... I think this was at a Glock Sport Shooting Foundation (GSSF) match in Indianapolis about 2 years ago. Was one of my first matches using the G26....
(http://home.centurytel.net/ctr88509/GSSF_ind.jpg)
Terror
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Originally posted by Terror
My primary point in this thread is, IMO, the SIG line of handguns are not the best choice for "fast and accurate" shooting.
T
Your brother told me you couldn't hit a bull in the bellybutton with a Glock.
:D
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Originally posted by Slash27
Your brother told me you couldn't hit a bull in the bellybutton with a Glock.
Thats family for ya!!
:)
T
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well.. if pure speed and "accuracy" is all that matters then you can't be a semi auto fan... they are way too slow compared to a revolver.
They simply can't function as fast.
I have maybe not put so many rounds "downrange" as some of you but I have put tons of lead out the muzzles of lots of handguns... most of the rounds I made myself and most of the targets were either breathing or at a distances that were unknown up to about 400 yards. I really have no use for a block for most of that kind of shooting and I find the 9 mm useless and not worth reloading.
I have never felt that practicing for a gunfight was any better than just getting good with the damn gun. I have been shot at.. it is somewhat... unnerving.
I have shot at moving targets and hand thrown targets and targets that were so far away that I had to hold up half the front sight with a 44 mag. I have shot dogs that were attacking. I don't know if any of this is good or bad "training" but I am comfortable around handguns and I have a fair idea of what each will and won't do... and what each caliber will and won't do.
There is nothing more fun than going out plinking and having the plastic pistol guys go "your kidding right?" when you tell em to hit a dirt clod 200 yards away or... a watermellon that is behind a car door. even an old battery.. these guys don't have a clue as to what their gun will or won't do except against a piece of paper at known.... and short... very short.. ranges.
I am sure that it will not harm them and that it may make em formidable in a fight but... I would rather have someone with a revolver who has been shot at before at my side than anyone who has paper targets all over his walls.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
well.. if pure speed and "accuracy" is all that matters then you can't be a semi auto fan... they are way too slow compared to a revolver.
They simply can't function as fast. lazs
Terror read this a few times because it is FACT. Glocks, HK's, Sig's CANNOT fire faster when loaded.
I was waiting for this to be said.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Terror read this a few times because it is FACT. Glocks, HK's, Sig's CANNOT fire faster when loaded.
I was waiting for this to be said.
Nope, no disagreement that a revolver is faster than a semi-auto in firing the first six rounds. Revolvers are also not as prone to malfunctions as semi-autos and they don't have to have room for the slide to cycle. There are many, many advantages to revolvers. You give up quite a bit of reliability when you choose to carry a semi-auto.
It's becoming proficient in reloading a revolver that is much harder than in becoming proficient in reloading a semi-auto. And the fact that you don't have to reload every 6 rounds as opposed to 12, 15 or 17 rounds... I would guess this is why semi-autos are way more prevalent as carry firearms than revolvers.
Terror
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you also don't want to "thrust" a semi auto at the bad guy.. even making contact with his heavy clothes will push the slide out of battery and the gun won't fire.
revolvers come in 5,6,7 and even nine shot and they are indeed the fastest. I really don't want to get involved in any fight that requires a reload but...
I have safariland speed loaders for the 44 and .357 they are very fast. what most people don't know is that it is not foolproof or even easy to get a semi auto reloaded.. there are a number of steps and most people can't do it rapidly even when not under pressure.
I simply am having trouble thinking of a situation that would require me to shoot at multiple targets 30 times with a handgun.
In the old days of revolvers.. the average fight lasted 1.7 rounds now... it is up to what? about 9 rounds per fight? the fights haven't changed.. the mechanics are the same.. it is just the mentality that makes people think that "fast and accurate" is good that has changed.
In the gunfights I have studied.. fast and accurate do not go together.. mostly you get fast or you get accurate. 9 out of ten misses fast is not "acccurate" one timed shot is not "fast". In the end.. it is the shot that hits that does the work..
unless you can get everyone to run away.. which... in my opinion... is the best thing.
lazs