Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on November 06, 2007, 04:26:52 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlNORX006-c
Is it a common practice to use AKs? Why are this guys so happy shooting "commie iron"?
No provocation here, just curious, i have read that in Vietnam Americans liked AKs but didn't use them because the sound attracted friendly fire.
And how can they talk to each other after shooting 12.7mm in a small room? ;)
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I guess its the fact that it doesnt jam or need much cleaning ;)
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I'm not a soldier but I would prefer an AK folder in a close quarters street fight. It shoots a reliable full Auto, and easily fired from the hip or higher.
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the US equipped the new Iraq army with AK's because they were familiar with the weapon and would require less training, also the AK's are allot cheaper than the M16.
i can't tell if the troops using the AK's are american or Iraqi. the lead says "US solders from the 3rd stryker brigade, 2nd infantry division alongside Iraqi troops from the 6th Iraqi army division engage insurgents, etc etc."
look at the arm patch.
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The guys with the AK's are iraqi's...
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The two shooting in the end are Iraqi.
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Originally posted by Boroda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlNORX006-c
Is it a common practice to use AKs? Why are this guys so happy shooting "commie iron"?
No provocation here, just curious, i have read that in Vietnam Americans liked AKs but didn't use them because the sound attracted friendly fire.
And how can they talk to each other after shooting 12.7mm in a small room? ;)
It's not that they liked the AK47. It's just that they hated the M16.
The only advantage the Ak47 had over the initial versions of the M16 was reliability. Everything else was pretty much equal.
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No comments on the AK, but I love how the M-82 makes the plaster fall off the ceiling.
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A lot of the spec ops guys I know prefer the old M-14 to either. They generally like the old 1911 better than the Beretta.
The AK family weapons are generally fine utility style weapons, cheap, reliable, and low maintenance. Not real accurate, especially at longer ranges, and not real powerful. They don't do anything really great, but they do most things fairly well. All in all a good weapon, and when you consider factors outside of how well the weapon does its job, it ranks up there among the top 10 of all time.
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the AK is a great rifle like the T34 was a great tank (the best of its age imo).
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without a doubt the very best general issue weapon in the world. it makes perfect sense if it is indeed the case they are being issued to US troops in iraq. I kind of doubt it though.
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Yes the two with the AK's are definitely Iraqi army. You can see they're wearing the old style 'chocolate chip' BDU's which has long since been superseded in the US Army but seems standard for the Iraqis.
As for the AK's. I seem to remember the US wanted to equip the Iraqi army with US rifles but the Iraqis preferred the AK and someone had to go and buy up a few thousand at $35 a pop. Rather ironic really.
I saw that piece of video before and couldn't help feeling that using a comrade's back or a rickety occasional table is hardly the most efficient use of an M82!
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Could not watch the video at work. I did see a guy that would carry an AK with a folding stock in his lap while on patrol in his Hummer. He said they were not allowed to carry the AKs but it was his best option for returning fire out the window due to its length .
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I thought a lot of the special forces guys were using AK's in Afghanistan, due to the fact they were often deep in enemy territory and not easily resupplied. So they used AK's because parts and ammo were easily found in the country.
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Well, gentlemen, what will you say to those (pay attention to the images #2, #4, #13...):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaT5S3tk-Tw
Iraqis? :)
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I didn't know they qualify snipers with correctional eyeglasses in the US army.
The guys using kalashnikovs sure do sound like iraqis.
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Ive also heard that some prefer using the AK in iraq and afghanistan because the distinct sound of the m16 attracts more unwanted attention than the more common ak47. I heard in on that highly unreliable discovery channel, so take it for what its worth.
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never seen footage from iraq before.
im quite suprised.
no helmets no vests not even trying to stay hidden, placing the barret in a small room and shooting from a table, unit badges on uniform. atleast they have ceramic plates on.
they work like amatures.
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I've never seen any U.S. soldier using an AK in Iraq in the year I have been here. Intitial Iraq units were given the AK but every unit since about May has been issued the M16.
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Why do you all think its AK-47s they are using? They are most likely AK-74s.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Why do you all think its AK-47s they are using? They are most likely AK-74s.
the term "AK-47" has become a generic term, most people don't even know about the AK-74.
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No they're most likely akm's or ak47's.
Supposedly there was an investigation because so many of the enemy kia's in fallujah had holes in their heads that they suspected execution style killings. Turns out that often times all the enemy would expose was his head through a window or above a wall and the marines would shoot them using m16s with optics from usually 150m-200m.
You'd need a lot of luck to do that with an akm or even an ak74.
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Originally posted by vadimax
Well, gentlemen, what will you say to those (pay attention to the images #2, #4, #13...):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaT5S3tk-Tw
Iraqis? :)
Those are most likely captured dragunov sniper rifles. I seriously doubt any US sniper would actualy use one when he could use an M24, M25, or an M82. The Dragunov is a decent rifle but it needs a heavier barrel to be real accurate. I've fired one and got decent groups but my factory spec Ruger model 77 .308 shoots better.
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I think Romak sniper rifles are rather common in iraq also.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Yes the two with the AK's are definitely Iraqi army. You can see they're wearing the old style 'chocolate chip' BDU's which has long since been superseded in the US Army but seems standard for the Iraqis.
As for the AK's. I seem to remember the US wanted to equip the Iraqi army with US rifles but the Iraqis preferred the AK and someone had to go and buy up a few thousand at $35 a pop. Rather ironic really.
I saw that piece of video before and couldn't help feeling that using a comrade's back or a rickety occasional table is hardly the most efficient use of an M82!
Snipers use tables or what ever they can find all the time. The one of the shot on the guys back is actually an M-24 NOT the M-82. We only see the M-82 in the end.
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Just watched the vid. Judging from their body language and everything else I think it was staged to some degree. Some sniper scouts do wear glasses in the army. But I can't imagine why that guy would be wearing civilian framed eye glasses in a war unless his other two pair of rubber frame issued glasses were lost or broken.
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Boroda, I have a 12 gauge BAIKAL shotgun. Although somewhat crude from the factory (need tape to hold it together) it is a fine gun, and I have not seen any finer in shooting a heavy round (BB) and bringing down birds at quite some range!
Much of old Russian stuff was quite fine, but the quality was somewhat varying.
(BTW, had some 3 Ladas. They were somewhat crappy, but I loved driving them, and have yet to break certain speed records that I put on roads full of potholes :D)
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Those are most likely captured dragunov sniper rifles. I seriously doubt any US sniper would actualy use one when he could use an M24, M25, or an M82. The Dragunov is a decent rifle but it needs a heavier barrel to be real accurate. I've fired one and got decent groups but my factory spec Ruger model 77 .308 shoots better.
As far as I know SVD is not positioned as a sniper rifle. It is a kind of battlefield fire range extender. Talking about real sniping, there are full scale 12.7 devices available -- KSVK, OSV-96, VSSK "Vychlop" ("Exhaust") :)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Snipers use tables or what ever they can find all the time. The one of the shot on the guys back is actually an M-24 NOT the M-82. We only see the M-82 in the end.
I have noticed in the images from Iraq that snipers nearly never do use soft basement for their rifles (if not on bipod), very often -- no gloves, body positioning -- kinda me in front of my computer... Precision is not the issue, eh? :)
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Why do you all think its AK-47s they are using? They are most likely AK-74s.
IIRC AK-74 (5.45mm) never were exported, at least to non-Warsaw Treaty countries.
These are probably just Chinese copies. Soviet mass-produced AKM or AK-74 have very special muzzle compensators, I didn't see any AKMs in any Iraqi footage.
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Definately an AKM/variant. Ribbed upper reciever tells you right away its not an AK47, and the metal magazine tells you its not an AK74 (all the 5.45 magazines Ive seen are bakelite/black plastic). The curvature of the magazine also makes it obvious its not a '74 or other 5.45 AK.
"These are probably just Chinese copies. Soviet mass-produced AKM or AK-74 have very special muzzle compensators, I didn't see any AKMs in any Iraqi footage."
Only the '74 has the large muzzle break, the AKM has the regular spoon break (which is also present on foreign AK's)
I actually think its an AIMS, based on the stock.
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Originally posted by Boroda
IIRC AK-74 (5.45mm) never were exported, at least to non-Warsaw Treaty countries.
These are probably just Chinese copies. Soviet mass-produced AKM or AK-74 have very special muzzle compensators, I didn't see any AKMs in any Iraqi footage.
ak-74s are in use with some middle east countries, probably not exported from russian factories though.
I think the polish make metal magazines. Seems like I've seen tantals with metal mags but I might be mistaken.
AKMs have the slanted muzzle break, AK47s have no muzzle break.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
A lot of the spec ops guys I know prefer the old M-14 to either. They generally like the old 1911 better than the Beretta.
THe M-14 is a fantastic gun... wish I could find one at a descent price to use as a hunting rifle. The M-9 Beretta is a POS compared to the 1911. If it comes down to drawing the Beretta to save your life, you are better off throwing it at the enemy and beating the crap outta him with your helmet while he is trying to shoot you with it.
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I made a little AK identification guide, using the parts of the AK that I commonly use to tell the difference. I got cocky on the AK47/AKM, and tried to identify the receiver type, which is probably wrong. Of course, this applies only to Russian AK's, foreign variants will be a little different.
It includes the SVD also, although it wasnt designed by Kalashnikov.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/AKS.jpg)
Note, though its not clearly defined here, the the dustcover/upper receivers on AKM's and AK74's are ribbed. This, for the most part, is the easiest way to tell them apart. That, and the muzzle break (or lack thereof), front sight, and dimple above the magazine well (the AK47, since it has a milled receiver, has a large, rectangular depression, while all other AK's have small, oval depressions, as the receivers are stamped).
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So whats the consensus, what are the Iraqis shooting (AKM, Ak47, or Ak74)?
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Originally posted by Suave
No they're most likely akm's or ak47's.
Supposedly there was an investigation because so many of the enemy kia's in fallujah had holes in their heads that they suspected execution style killings. Turns out that often times all the enemy would expose was his head through a window or above a wall and the marines would shoot them using m16s with optics from usually 150m-200m.
You'd need a lot of luck to do that with an akm or even an ak74.
The supposed inaccuracy of the AK47/AKM is greatly exaggerated. The AK's you see used in Africa and other 3rd world countries are old and worn weapons and crap ammunition. Put those same optics on a new AKM using good ammunition and it will be just as good at 200m. The M-16 may be more accurate, but we're talking millimetres at those ranges.
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Originally posted by Viking
The supposed inaccuracy of the AK47/AKM is greatly exaggerated. The AK's you see used in Africa and other 3rd world countries are old and worn weapons and crap ammunition. Put those same optics on a new AKM using good ammunition and it will be just as good at 200m. The M-16 may be more accurate, but we're talking millimetres at those ranges.
No. A new russian built ak74 shoots a group that's about 6 inches at 50m, 12 inches at 100, and wider than a man's torso at 200m. Magnification on an ak is superfluous.
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Originally posted by Suave
No. A new russian built ak74 shoots a group that's about 6 inches at 50m, 12 inches at 100, and wider than a man's torso at 200m. Magnification on an ak is superfluous.
Are you sure you're not mixing up inches and centimeters? That doesn't sound anywhere near right for the accuracy. That would be a horrible accuracy if true and I doubt any military would accept such from an assault rifle.
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Originally posted by Suave
No. A new russian built ak74 shoots a group that's about 6 inches at 50m, 12 inches at 100, and wider than a man's torso at 200m. Magnification on an ak is superfluous.
Lol, I'm afraid you are misinformed. I've personally shot 2" groups at 200 yards with a Yugo AKM with iron sights, from a prone position with hand support. Here are a few targets from a AK-103 (AK74 in 7.62R) and the 5.54R is considered more accurate than the 7.62R:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid162/p46023266c9d40579d7b0b28445bacf02/f4b00706.jpg)
Freehand at 100 yards:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid161/p683a1e5da8f7b9364cfadf2434c0f3ae/f4c14dde.jpg)
Fast shooting at 100 yards:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid114/p5c20d90b90d0b61154c31644fed7090c/f8df35ff.jpg)
With VEPR PKAS scope at 100 yards from bench:
(http://img168.exs.cx/img168/6219/veprpkas0075je.jpg)
A properly built AK-74 with optics is a very effective weapon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJM8asnj6JY
And the 5.54R is a better penetrating round than the 5.56N:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqaeX2KigSc
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Originally posted by Viking
The supposed inaccuracy of the AK47/AKM is greatly exaggerated. The AK's you see used in Africa and other 3rd world countries are old and worn weapons and crap ammunition. Put those same optics on a new AKM using good ammunition and it will be just as good at 200m. The M-16 may be more accurate, but we're talking millimetres at those ranges.
I have fired a hungarian or czech made AK which belongs to a friend and I was impressed with it's accuracy at 200m with iron sights. it's fit and finish were superb especially for what basically amounts to a cheap machine stamped weapon.
another friend has a chinese copy which while not as nicely put together is as accurate. the amazing thing is the second friend does not take very good care of any of his firearms. the last time we went shooting his AK was rusted shut, he kicked the bolt open, cycled the action a few times and went to work on the cans we were setting up as targets.
the AK, a truly remarkable design.
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Those are about 12 inch groups at 100m you are showing. Two inch groups at 200m, I'd have to see that to believe it.
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Well if you are going to youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0
I've shot thousands of rounds through ak's mostly ak74s with red dot sights. But I'm not going to argue with somebody who knows so much about it.
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as a freehand shot, do they look like a lethal grouping to you? from a bench I can hit a soda can at 100m most of the time with iron sights. at 200m I can hit a man sized target center of mass every time. I never shoot further than 200m without a scope and neither of the AKs that are available to me are scoped.
given my druthers I would take the AK over the M16 simply for it's unquestioned reliability. I don't own any military arms but I do own a ruger mini-14 in 5.56mm which serves the same purpose an AK would and is probably as rugged and reliable.
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Originally posted by Suave
Those are about 12 inch groups at 100m you are showing. Two inch groups at 200m, I'd have to see that to believe it.
I also showed you a 1 inch group at 100m/y. With the AG-3 (Norwegian H&K G-3) I shoot half-inch groups at 200m so the AK is definitively less accurate, but I would have no problems shooting head-shots with it at 150-200m with a proper optical sight and hand/barrel support. And I'm only the third-best shot in my platoon.