Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rich46yo on November 07, 2007, 05:27:59 AM
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1, As a fighter stick what bomber/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to fly against? All other things being equal lets say.
2, As a bomber stick, and with all else equal and not including the 262 or 163, what fighter/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to be coming at your bombers?
3, Whats the most effective single thing can a bomber stick do to successfully defend against fighters?
4, What single thing can a fighter stick do to successfully attack bombers?
5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
6, Whats the biggest reason fighter sticks die against bombers?
Thank you...and ........Rich
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#2. Anything with cannons or a Jug.
#3. Keep the fighter from gaining a considerable alt/E advantage.
#4. Hit the cockpit quickly killing the pilot.
#5. Getting a patient pilot who is willing to work for the proper advantage prior to engaging buffs.
#6. Attacking without decent advantage from the 6 position.
I have no opinion on #1
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1 at alt B24 - speed, plenty of ammo, ball turret. at low-level B26 - even more speed and ammo.
2. Typhie/Tempest - speed and the 4x Hispanos are devastating
3. alt, alt, alt. and get some alt while your at it.
4. co-alt and lots of speed slashing attack.
5. not enough of 3. or SA.
6. sitting on a formations 6 oclock.
RT
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hmmm I'm amending no. 4 to:
4. Take your time. Plan your attack, set up each pass properly and dont rush it.
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to me, b-17's seems the toughest to drop regularly. I rarely fly a bomber, but one thing ive done with regularity is run outta tail gun ammo, Im a bit trigger happy. Dang ball rurret gives me vertigo, and a sore neck (what doesnt):rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
1, As a fighter stick what bomber/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to fly against? All other things being equal lets say.
B17/B24 50 cal. turrets. Sometimes if I'm not careful, the 20mm cannon on the Ki67.
2, As a bomber stick, and with all else equal and not including the 262 or 163, what fighter/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to be coming at your bombers?
Typhoons have an effective gun package. 190's do, but the rounds drop off sooner, requiring them to get close.
3, Whats the most effective single thing can a bomber stick do to successfully defend against fighters?
Get lots of alt, and take the scenic route if you have to get to target. Pick your shots, quick bursts, conserve ammo.
4, What single thing can a fighter stick do to successfully attack bombers?
As Lusche and Simaril would probably tell you, have patience. Come in from up high. ALWAYS use B&Z tactics, stay fast. In B17's and B24's, I do well in the ball turett, so GET CLEAR quick after you've made your pass.
5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
Lack of ammo conservation. Overall course of flight in relation to enemy con traffic (including alt).
6, Whats the biggest reason fighter sticks die against bombers?
Hang on my six too long and you'll find out!
Thank you...and ........Rich
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Originally posted by ColKLink
to me, b-17's seems the toughest to drop regularly. I rarely fly a bomber, but one thing ive done with regularity is run outta tail gun ammo, Im a bit trigger happy.
thats why i prefer the 24 to the 17 - i'll sacrifice 500ft/s climb and a few extra 250lb for the extra ammo any day :)
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
1, As a fighter stick what bomber/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to fly against? All other things being equal lets say.
I dread the Ki-67
2, As a bomber stick, and with all else equal and not including the 262 or 163, what fighter/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to be coming at your bombers?
More important than the number of guns is the way they are used, though more firepower creates more problems (eg 190A8) ;)
3, Whats the most effective single thing can a bomber stick do to successfully defend against fighters?
Altitude, altitude, altitude!
4, What single thing can a fighter stick do to successfully attack bombers?
It's not a single thing, but the most imortant is: Angles!
5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
Poor planning.
6, Whats the biggest reason fighter sticks die against bombers?
Greed.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
1, As a fighter stick what bomber/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to fly against? All other things being equal lets say.
B-17 although by only a slight margin over the B-24.
2, As a bomber stick, and with all else equal and not including the 262 or 163, what fighter/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to be coming at your bombers?
In order from best to worst: FW190-A8 with 2x30mm, 2x20mm, 2x7.9mm, BF110G-2 with 2x30mm, 4x20mm, Tempest/Typhoon with 4x20mm Hispanos, Ta152-H with 1x30mm, 2x20mm.
I guess Germany was compelled to build good buff hunters.
3, Whats the most effective single thing can a bomber stick do to successfully defend against fighters?
Get high. The higher the better.
4, What single thing can a fighter stick do to successfully attack bombers?
Come from above. Thus the reason for getting high defensively.
5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
Poor gunnery/SA
6, Whats the biggest reason fighter sticks die against bombers?
Poor tactics.
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1. B-26 seems to give me the most trouble. Although I usually have an altitude advantage coming in, I almost always leave with oil on the cockpit.
2. For guns, obviously the Mk108 is the most devastating, but the A8 performs so badly, and the 110 and 109K4 take damage too easily. For my money, I prefer the Jug's 8 caliber 50 because it also brings you the altitude performance and damage absorption.
3. Stay level and concentrate on working the guns. Fire only at close range (800 or less) in order to both bait the fighter into thinking you're asleep, and improve your hit chances. Last, have the patience to climb to a high altitude, at least in excess of 18K.
4. In the Jug, its all about an extremely high six approach--almost a vertical dive into the formation. Lead in front of the targets nose until with 1000 yards or less, then let your aim drift to the wing root. This approach makes lead for the gunners extremely difficult, ensures you will pass behind them as you blow through (and not collide), and you will avoid pilot wounds as you keep the engine between yourself and the guns. If I'm flying an 190A8 or other planes with cannons, its pure slashing attacks from the flanks. Run in on the front quarter, firing as you slide behind. Let the cannon do the work for you.
5. Low altitude. If I have a 2-3 thousand foot advantage on you (or more), you're dead meat. If I have to climb up to you, I have to be patient or risk getting hosed.
6. For me, I get hit most when I make my approach too shallow. You never want your dive to stabilize behind the bombers--you become a sponge at that point.
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Thanks guys. Im constantly reviewing my tactics and planning. More opinions would be even more welcome.
Im at a point where Im spending almost all my time in 26s or KI-67s. Thats how much Ive learned to value speed, even an extra 15, 20, or 30 mph is huge.
I would rate the 17 as the toughest bomber. The 24 isn't as tough, and flames to easy, but it has an extra 200 rounds in the tail. It also doesn't maneuver as well as the 17.
The 26's weak point is its belly. The KI has the same problem but its so fast it doesn't suffer as bad. I found a way toi deal with it but it aint the same as having a belly turret.
The Tempest and Hurri are both deadly not just cause of their firepower but also because they are tough.
Not sure I can add much but here are my answers.
1, Id have to say the B-26.
2, Any tough fighter with a 4+ cannon package. I would also have to add the 190 and not just cause of the airplane, but also because, of the guys who spend a lot of time in it.
3, Always know where the sun is. Dont hang on a target to long. Take evasive exits from targets. Keep and maintain a fairly decent level of Alt. Do anything you can think of to throw a fighter off his groove, "thats for another thread". Use your weapons most effectively vis-a-vis the particular fighter your fighting. If your being ganged then turn, turn, turn, and then turn some more. While your at it grab fast alt, or dive, or do anything crazy when being ganged by several cons.
4, Dont try and do to much with one pass. Yesterday I gladly sacrificed a drone KI-67 for a 262 cause the stick hung up while coming in from the side. I turned hard into him and he hung up trying to kill all 3 KIs in one pass. I only needed him to hang one second with that 20mm top cannon, and that cannon can hit from all kinds of angles when you roll the airframe. I'll also add "to that "fly bombers" too"! Lusche is a very dangerous Buff hunter but he didn't learn it by flying fighters. He learned it by flying bombers. I can tell by his approaches that he could only have learned these weak spots by actually spending time in the bombers. Probably a lot of time.
5, I'd say poor planning. Like in coming into heavily defended targets at 5,000'. I'll add to that however that I go into front line targets and do take some thumps, "I give some too". But I'm not about to spend an evening bombing targets where theres no action. I like gunning far more then bombing. I'll also add, "not utilizing your waist gun enough". Waist gunnery is very effective, and mind you Im just starting to really learn how to use them.
6, "Greed", thank you. The guy who said this is the opposite of greedy and he'll pass on a slash that doesn't form up like He wants. Ive only seen him make one mistake and that had nothing to do with greed.
Do keep talking guys. When it comes to the bomber/fighter war in AH I am one great big sponge.
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Not quite off topic, but something I feel is an important consideration:
One of the factors of the MA that's often overlooked IMHO, is that Bombers represent the true offensive firepower for the land grab. Sure, you can pork the radar with a fighter, perhaps even deack a field with one, but you can shut a base down with bombers, very quickly I might add. 3 or 4 formations of bombers can wreak a field in one pass, and do it from altitude safe from the ack and (usually) interceptors. Add an equivalent amount of escorts that know the role, and you've got what is typically an unstoppable force. Unfortunately, not many folks employ tactics consistent with this. The typical land grab mission is nothing but Niki's and 110's and suffer at least 50% casualties. But I suppose that is acceptable to the "Quake" crowd. IMHO, is should take no more than about 10-12 folks to take a defended base, and bombers are the hinge-pin.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
1, As a fighter stick what bomber/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to fly against? All other things being equal lets say.
The ones that can point and click at you from 1.5K out.
2, As a bomber stick, and with all else equal and not including the 262 or 163, what fighter/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to be coming at your bombers?
30mm, but after I am out of ammo and they get close nuff to take a shot.
3, Whats the most effective single thing can a bomber stick do to successfully defend against fighters?
point and click
4, What single thing can a fighter stick do to successfully attack bombers?
Leave them alone or hot them on the runway
5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
Fall asleep or the clickie thingie broke
6, Whats the biggest reason fighter sticks die against bombers?
Laser guns that kill from over 1K out and the amazing point and click ACM
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You whine too much dedalos. Not to mention make stuff up.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Laser guns that kill from over 1K out and the amazing point and click ACM
No such thing in game. At least not more "lazer" than fighter .50 cals.
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I solely use the P-38 for buff killing, it does it rather well. Even without the 20mm, the Lightning is still a good bomber killer.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Karnak
You whine too much dedalos. Not to mention make stuff up.
Stop whining about whiners :rofl
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I solely use the P-38 for buff killing, it does it rather well. Even without the 20mm, the Lightning is still a good bomber killer.
ack-ack
Well, after all you are using the P-38 solely for everything ;)
While the nose mounted guns are quite suited to buff hunting, I always have the feeling the P38 is too big of a target to the buff gunners to get really comfortable with it. Of course, that could just be me - But the rare occasions I fly a 38, I actually try to stay away from buffs....
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It's only a big target if you show the top or bottom of the plane. Profile is smaller than some expect, in fact the profile is smaller than a lot of the fighters in this game.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Lusche
Well, after all you are using the P-38 solely for everything ;)
While the nose mounted guns are quite suited to buff hunting, I always have the feeling the P38 is too big of a target to the buff gunners to get really comfortable with it. Of course, that could just be me - But the rare occasions I fly a 38, I actually try to stay away from buffs....
It is a big target. You have to be careful with it and not hang it up. However in the hands of someone who really knows it the 38 is a very good slasher. I forget who it was once but I got chewed up in my 26s by a P-38. Overall I do very well against it but in the right, or wrong, hands its a very capable buff killer.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It's only a big target if you show the top or bottom of the plane. Profile is smaller than some expect, in fact the profile is smaller than a lot of the fighters in this game.
ack-ack
In other words: Because I fly it wrong. But I already suspected this ;)
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
1, As a fighter stick what bomber/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to fly against? All other things being equal lets say.
As Holmes said, B-24s and B-26s. But what I fear the most actually is the aim of the guy behind the guns.
2, As a bomber stick, and with all else equal and not including the 262 or 163, what fighter/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to be coming at your bombers?
As fighter pilot, the best combo is 20/30 mm cannons. The 190A8 is great for buff hunting, the 110, too (even though I prefer flying single engined fighters); keep in mind, though, that any cannon armed fighter can do the job (I have killed many buffs in Ki-84)
3, Whats the most effective single thing can a bomber stick do to successfully defend against fighters?
Firing and hitting. As I said, the most deadly thing of bombers is the aim of the gunner. So, I guess, good SA and good aim are the keys.
4, What single thing can a fighter stick do to successfully attack bombers?
Again, I agree with Holmes. You have to carefully plan the approach and attack, NEVER rush it, and use high angles to make worse the gunner's job, high speed slashing attacks from above or below are the best (side attacks work fine, too, but are more difficult, at least to me ;) )
5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
Poor SA, poor aim. Well... being ganged, too, I guess! :D
6, Whats the biggest reason fighter sticks die against bombers?
Good gunner's aim, poorly planned attack (and, talking about me, I have to add: attack pushed even when it would be advisable to break it and set it up again.... no patience! :D)
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Bombrich, I think I never had the pleasure of meeting (shooting) you (down), looking forward to it! ;)
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5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
The “red label” (icon). plus the distance info-cue. Remove all that from the enemy bombers and they will live longer.
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Originally posted by PanosGR
5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
The “red label” (icon). plus the distance info-cue. Remove all that from the enemy bombers and they will live longer.
Get real life screen size & resolution, then you can take away the icons.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Get real life screen size & resolution, then you can take away the icons.
Really? How will you know if they are friendly or enemy buffs?
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Get real life screen size & resolution, then you can take away the icons.
On the contrary in real life they use labels. Look at the modern HUDs or the JHMCS.
I’m not saying remove the big label from all of the aircrafts. Only from the bombers that have the formation choice. The Green label –the friendly one- will be on, from 6k as is.
So what do you need the red one? The bomber formation that doesn’t present an icon will be the bad one. All I’m saying is by the absence of the red label there might be a good chance for the bombers to escape from the fighters instead of “invite” them by the big red -neon style- icon.
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Originally posted by PanosGR
So what do you need the red one? The bomber formation that doesn’t present an icon will be the bad one.
I need the red label, because it presents me the information I could easily get in real life, but not AH due to aforementioned issues.
The planes appear much smaller on screen and in a worse resolution. At distances you could easily identify plane types in real life, I see just a small blob of pixels. Also we do not have 3D stereosopic views, so any range / closure rate indication real life view would give you, has to be provided by icons.
Not pretty, but necessary.
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Without the icons AH would be simulating a pilot with vision so bad he would be legaly blind here in California and not allowed to have a license or drive.
You think that is an accurate simulation of a WWII fighter pilot's eyes?
The debate you should have is about what range icons should kick in and what data they should give at what range, not whether or not we should have them at all.
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Also we do not have 3D stereosopic views, so any range / closure rate indication real life view would give you, has to be provided by icons.
true. i agree with u here
The debate you should have is about what range icons should kick in and what data they should give at what range, not whether or not we should have them at all.
In this case maybe is possible and for the bombers only the icons kick in stage to be reduced to 2 or 1k. I don’t know im just making a speculation here, in terms of increasing the bombers survivability
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
1, As a fighter stick what bomber/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to fly against? All other things being equal lets say.
B-24 and B-17, and to a slightly less degree, the B-26. The Ki-67, Ju-88, and the rest, it's too easy to stay out of their guns field of fire.
2, As a bomber stick, and with all else equal and not including the 262 or 163, what fighter/gun package would you consider to be the most dangerous to be coming at your bombers?
Firepower only, Bf110 w/ 2-30mm/4-20mm, 190A-8 w/ 2-30mm/2-20mm.
For speed getting to the buffs and in the attack with firepower, especially at alt, the TA-152 w/ 1-30mm/2-20mm.
For the best mix of firepower, speed and manuveurability in the attack, the 109G-14 w/ 1-30mm+20mm gondolas, or for some reason to a slightly less degree, the 109K-4 with the single 30mm.
After that, anything with 4-20mm Hispanos, Typhie/Tempest and F4U-C
3, Whats the most effective single thing can a bomber stick do to successfully defend against fighters?
Alt is good, of course, but I'm assuming you mean defensive during an interceptor attack. Keep up speed and always turn to keep the attacker on your 6. Worry about position and angle for further bomb runs later.
As fighter begins any kind of slashing side or forward quarter attack, adjust altitude and turn at approx. 1.2K-1.0K to throw off his calculated approach.
4, What single thing can a fighter stick do to successfully attack bombers?
Unless buff is on close approach to drop where you immediately attack the lead plane, BE PATIENT! Work ahead and above the bombers by 2K minimum to allow for turn in, staying just 1K-1.5K away if passing parallel, to entice him to use up his ammo ineffectively.
5, Whats the biggest reason bomber sticks die against fighters?
Bad SA and not seeing interceptors approach.
6, Whats the biggest reason fighter sticks die against bombers?
Rushing in on the 6 o'clock
Thank you...and ........Rich
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Originally posted by PanosGR
Also we do not have 3D stereosopic views, so any range / closure rate indication real life view would give you, has to be provided by icons.
true. i agree with u here
The debate you should have is about what range icons should kick in and what data they should give at what range, not whether or not we should have them at all.
In this case maybe is possible and for the bombers only the icons kick in stage to be reduced to 2 or 1k. I don’t know im just making a speculation here, in terms of increasing the bombers survivability
It does not matter what range the icons kick in if it is with in firing range. Now, how about icons for the red guy without distance? I want to see the icon since it is hard to spot planes but the distance is not needed.
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Originally posted by PanosGR
In this case maybe is possible and for the bombers only the icons kick in stage to be reduced to 2 or 1k. I don’t know im just making a speculation here, in terms of increasing the bombers survivability
That is dramatically worse identification than the human eye can see. There is an old thread that had examples of what could be made out at what range.
I seem to recall that Pyro once made visual note of (not ID) of a jetliner at a range of 70 miles when he was in the Coast Guard.
At 3,000-6,000ft aircraft identification is still easy in most cases. Exceptions would be things like Spitfires and Bf109s from directly behind. P-51s, Bf109s and Ki-61s were also sometimes mis-IDed as eachother from that angle.
It does not matter what range the icons kick in if it is with in firing range. Now, how about icons for the red guy without distance? I want to see the icon since it is hard to spot planes but the distance is not needed.
No, I don't think so. I don't want to play chase the dot and not know if I am closing or losing ground. The range allows me to know if it is worth pursuing.
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Gianlupo I look forward to it to.:D Mind you I dont fancy myself in the upper levels of buff sticks but Ive made a lot of guys, who made a few mistakes......pay. Mostly I want to increase my gunnery skills and glean wisdom from the more expereinced sticks.
Frankly Im more worried about "not" getting noticed then I am in "getting" noticed. I want the action. Will I take some knocks? of course! but how else do you grow? So I'm fine with the red icons.
Lately I havnt been able to pull myself out of KI-67s. Why do I love that airplane? because its so fast that as long as you go in at decent alt, 10,000' or more, the fighter stick has to make one of two decisions. 1, Breaking off and heading back. Or 2, Coming in at less then optimal angles. Also many sticks underestimate the 20mm cannon and the angles, and range, that it can brought into play.
Sloehand the thing about the 110 Ive found is that when its coming in either its going down or you are. Almost every 100 fight Ive had has been in my 6 and a slugfest until the end.
To really get an appreciation of how deadly the 190 is you have to be in the distance watching the thing dive on another airplane. It looks like one of those hunting Hawks diving on its prey and it has the firepower to shred you quickly. In my opinion, vis-a-vis bombers, its the deadliest energy fighter there is.
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Case in point. By 147 of blue map I got into a tangle with a 190 and spit flown by guys who know what they are doing. I got the 190 but the spit was dancing around me like a, like a, like a spit.
I was down to bingo ammo in my tail and had 2 shot up KI-67s left. The Spit had me pure and simple. But he made one big mistake. he underestimated what nose and waist 0.50s can do. With the nose 0.50 I tickled him good and after he slashed me from the side he hung up on my low left no doubt thinking he was safe from my tail guns and my top cannon. Which he was.
But he wasnt safe from my waist 0.50 and I blew his wing off with it. Waist guns are very effective by the simple fact a lot of bombers sticks either dont use them, dont practice with them, or dont jump into them fast enough.
Here was a very good stick, in a very agile fighter, who had a bomber stick on the ropes, and he made only one mistake.
Waist guns are there to be used. And they are very effective. Most of all against fragile aircraft like the spit.
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My opinions:
1. Most dangerous in order: B17, B26, B24, Lancaster, the rest
2. Anything higher than I am. Cannons or .50s make no diff.
3. Spiral climb
4. Be patient
5. Flying too low
6. Impatience