Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: B@tfinkV on November 07, 2007, 09:14:06 PM
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saw on the news tonight another guy took a gun and shot a load of people then himself. think it was in europe somewhere, forgive me not finding links. was just thinking about it though, the guy had a website about his hatred of humanity and the evidence was all there long before he did the crime, it could have been stopped.
I also felt a deep disgust in seeing a likeminded person to myself, i have very far out ideas about the human race in general, that a person like myslf would choose this option to sutain his frustrations. disgusting.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7082795.stm
here is the story.
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http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219302
Try here.
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best you can do is be prepared to shoot him dead before he kills you or someone else.. even tho it is very unlikely that you will run into someone like him... More likely you will run into a thug who just wants to harm you and/or take your stuff..
You are more likely to be attacked or mugged than you are to be in a wreck where a seatbelt would save you.. but.. they make us wear seatbelts.
lazs
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the first rule of any philosophy about the human race that i would entertain is that the thesis relates to the thinker before being applied to the rest of humanity. there is no excuse for having anarchic or anti-social views about the human race yet thinking you yourself are above your critical eye. to take it out on other people less enlightened than yourself transforms all your greatest revelations into murderous sickness.
i believe that to have the right to judge the human race on a grandscale one must first be at peace with one's self and with your fellow man. there is no great legacy of thought left when you willingly harm those unable to defend themself, you become much less the thinker and much more the fiend.
Is society to blame for this young man's actions? hard to say. we dont know what shaped his mind and we dont know exactly how his life developed from childhood. to be honest all i do know is that he let himself down (or was let down by society?) in the worst way, took a deep and thoughtfull mind and turned it to evil and insanity as a way to escape the reality he created around himself.
so why would a soul continue to create a reality that needed escaping from? one possibility is that we all crave a reason to live, some of us crave more than others and imaginations are the key to creating your life to be worthy of continuation. this person lost any reason to live, by his own fault or other's matters not. I think it is a growing increase in the evidence of humanity falling off the right road in evolution. more and more people are growing up and lacking any reason to live other than thier own deluded fantasy and in an age where huge populations are no longer restricted with inhibitions and the fear of punishments for thinking outside the box there is only going to be an increase in these sick individuals venting on our children and loved ones.
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sorry bat... not such a deep thinker as you.. I don't really know the ins and outs of why these people exist. I can guess but.. it is just a guess.
I do know that they, or people like them, have always existed and probly always will. I know that civilization and the industrial age has given us an equalizer.. and his prophet is col colt.
Like I said.. who knows.. I just know that it is prudent for someone in our civilization.. in the immediate area... and as quickly as possible... it is prudent for them to shoot the guy down until he is no longer a threat.
I carry because too many shirk their duty and don't have the courage to. I do not want to trust that "someone" will take care of it.
Only about 10% or the population feels as I do.. the other 90% would rather not bother and hope that someone else will help..
This is not a bad thing.. it is just the way it is. I accept this in people and plan for it.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
You are more likely to be attacked or mugged than you are to be in a wreck where a seatbelt would save you.. but.. they make us wear seatbelts.
lazs
Were?
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thats something i can respect lazs, the fact you will make yourself a 'combatant' rather than a helpless waste of space.
i bet you are the kind of guy that would risk his life to fight back an attacker rather than play it safe lose some credit cards and walk away shamed but unharmed. I hope that despite being unable to own a firearm i would still act in this way if challenged by a low life. death before being someone's b1tch. The time in my life when i have been mugged or threatened i have fought back and got hurt or won, but never lost my dignity. this being said i have been threatened with knives but never guns, two very different fights.
although you say youre not a deep thinker i would argue about that. my deepest thoughts concern one subject, the human mind and human race considered broadly. Your opinions of gun ownership and the right to carry are obviously amoung your deepest thoughts as you manage to find reason to further your opinions from a wide range of topics like this murder story and many others.
niether of our deeper thoughts on these subjects are more worthy than the other, so i would say almost everyone is a deep thinker in some aspect of thier life.
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Originally posted by lazs2
You are more likely to be attacked or mugged than you are to be in a wreck where a seatbelt would save you.. but.. they make us wear seatbelts.
lazs
:rofl :rofl :rofl
lol where the hell do you dig this crap up? Is this more NRA BS?
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Apples + oranges = lazs
:rofl
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I am no expert, but here's my viewpoint. About the only things you can do to survive if a person running amok comes in and starts shooting is either run and hide or put the offense on him, or maybe some of each. You have nothing to lose if there is no escape. I hope no one here ever runs into a situation like that.
Lazs makes some good points, and has more experience then most when it comes to rough customers. I respect his experience and opinion very much. It's easy to forget there is a lot of evil going on in the world, because most of the time we deal with nice people. We are taken by surprise when evil things happen. It is difficult to be on guard all the time as well, but it is necessary to do the best we can.
My thoughts are based on what I've heard over the years from people who I believe to be knowledgeable. If someone is out to get you they will try. There is a saying: To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Realize if someone is really after you, they will probably get you. Always take a death threat seriously.
On a different level with different motivations, thugs and muggers are opportunists looking for easy marks. They are as Lazs described, either after money or to harm you. Things you can do to avoid thuggery is give the appearance you are moving about with purpose. Don't go about looking like you are lost or aimlessly walking around. Don't look down at the ground or appear depressed. Give a healthy and robust appearance, like you are in shape and capable of handling yourself. Avoid places where trouble might happen, such as rough bars or bad parts of town. If you see an unsavory looking group headed toward you, cross the street and use that sidewalk. Avoid public intoxication where you might be unawares of what's going on around you. Keep an eye peeled in parking lots and at the gas station. Lock your car doors and keep windows rolled up. If bumped from behind, look to see who is in the car that bumped you before stopping and getting out to inspect damage.
Couple random thoughts:
Fighting a mugger who wants your wallet is not such a good idea. Sometimes a mugger may set you up by asking if you have a light, then mug you while you have your hand in your pocket. If he's after your wallet, take out the wallet and toss it on the ground in front of him. Do not hand it to him. He will more likely be distracted or run off if he has to pick up the wallet and it's scattered contents from the ground. This may give you time to get away as well.
Don't display a gun to a would be aggressor unless you are willing to kill him. It may happen that a would be aggressor will not be deterred by the sight of a gun. If this happens and he walks toward you, you must not allow him to get your gun or to harm you. You may have to shoot him, even if he is, or appears to be, unarmed. This would be a very hard thing to do for most folks including myself.
Carrying is very serious business and requires a serious attitude and a great responsibility. I haven't met Lazs but he sounds like someone worth knowing. From reading his posts I would feel perfectly comfortable around Lazs.
Les
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good post leslie, some very good advice.
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Originally posted by lazs2
You are more likely to be attacked or mugged than you are to be in a wreck where a seatbelt would save you.. but.. they make us wear seatbelts.
Another winner from the forums most retarded poster.
Use of safety belts at the time of a crash makes a significant difference in hospitalization outcomes. One person in six (17%) who was wearing a safety belt at the time of the crash was hospitalized compared to one person in three (32%) who was not wearing a safety belt at the time of the crash. (NHTSA, 2005)
Ejection from a vehicle is one of the most injurious events that can happen to a person in a crash. In fatal crashes in 2004, 74 percent of the passenger vehicle occupants who were totally ejected from the vehicle where killed. Safety belts are effective in preventing total ejections; only one percent of the occupants who used restraints were totally ejected, compared with 29 percent of unrestrained occupants. (NHTSA, 2005)
Research has found that lap/shoulder safety belts, when used, reduce the risk of fatal injury to front-seat passenger car occupants by 45 percent and the risk of moderate-to-critical injury by 50 percent. For light truck occupants, safety belts reduce the risk of fatal injury by 60 percent and moderate-to-critical injury by 65 percent. (NHTSA, 2005)
It is estimated that 451 children under age 5 were saved as a result of child restraint use in 2004; if all children under 5 had used child safety seats an estimated 566 lives (that is, an additional 114) could have been saved. An estimated 7,472 lives were saved by child restraints from 1975-2004. (NHTSA, 2005)
From 1975 through 2004, it is estimated that safety belts saved 195,382 lives, including 15,434 lives saved in 2004. If all passenger vehicle occupants over age 4 wore safety belts, 21,273 lives (that is, an additional 5,839) could have been saved in 2004. (NHTSA, 2005)
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well despite how accurate or honest these statistics may be Hortlund.....My brother has a young friend called james lock who was thrown clear of his car when it rolled 3 times. He was thrown clear and broke some bones but the light weight car was totaly crushed by the time it stopped, collapsing the drivers compartment as there was no roll bars or reinforced structure. The police said not wearing a seat belt may have saved his life.
My father's sister was also in an accident back in the 80s where she was ejected from a convertable and suffered mild injuries.
whatever the hard facts and stats about this subject dictate, both these people survived only because they had no seatbelt on. whatever the evidence suggests, you try telling them that they should have worn a belt in those accidents and they will disagree till they die.
Personaly i have been in three or four accidents all of which i was wearing my belt and protected from serious injury because of it. I will always wear my belt. That doesnt mean that one day, with enough bad luck, wearing a seatbelt in an accident may infact cause me more injury than not wearing one.
Statistics show a broad range to prove a point working on the law of averages.
Life experience only needs one single event to shape that individual's view point.
nobody can tell you that your views are wrong, all they can do is throw statistics in your face to show you what happened to everyone else and therefore proving that your lucky escape was a very low % chance. Never the less, for the individual concerned, that small % chance was enough to preserve life. So statistics mean zip for one man, they simply are used to show the most likely outcome when all accidents are added together and averaged like a 3rd grade math problem.
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hortlund... you overthought it. you lost the trees for the forest...
for you lefties... please review stats... even if you take the most bizzare (how do they know what WOULD have happened?) of his stats...
You are talking maybe.. what? lets get wild here and say that in the fatal crashes... 10% are saved by seatbelts...
Now say we have 50,000 deaths in the US from fatal crashes... even counting running someone down... that is, Ta da... 5,000 people a year saved from seatbelts out of 300 million people in the US...
Now... how many muggings and assaults are there in the US every year? We have 4 times that just in killings.. not counting rape and assault and property and .. on and on..
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
From that site... there are 1,400,000 violent crimes in the US every year.
Now.. one of you parrot, empty headed lefties please explain how seatbelts save the lives of 1.4 million Americans every year????
sheesh... like talking to sean penn or my kalifornia rep.
lazs
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and leslie... those are all good advice.. the truth is.. in MOST cases the feral crowd.. just like other animals... look for the weak and the sick but.. you can't count on that.
other things that happen are dog attacks here. I have shot about a dozen dogs in the country that had packed up. It is simply better to have a gun than not have one.
I can't imagine anyone who would not like to see me pull out a j frame and from a one foot distance.. put a 357 mag into a pit bull attacking their little boy or girl or someone elses.;
I can't imagine anyone who would want to be in a classroom with the guys who banned guns rather than me with one... especially when they can hear the little goth role player moving from room to room shooting the other sheeple.
I like to say that not carrying is a choice.. and I do believe it is.. but I believe it is a gutless and inhumane choice.
I am saddened that so many...including myself are hampered from carrying so much of the time
lazs
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lazs i work labour when i do get the motivation to earn money and so i have a sun bleached pair of steel toecaps that i wear most of the time anyhow.
now i know a rabid pitbull may beable to grab my leg just before i kick its ribs into its lungs but then i still saved the child even if at my own expense.
before guns men and women were still known for insane acts of bravery to protect the weak from attack.
all im saying is that you dont need a gun to save a child from a pitbull, even if it does make it 5 times harder.
but then....you dont need a gun to go into a school and kill 7 people....
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Originally posted by lazs2
You are more likely to be attacked or mugged than you are to be in a wreck where a seatbelt would save you.. but.. they make us wear seatbelts.
lazs
C'mon now Lazs. Your hurting your credibility with junk stats like that.
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Originally posted by lazs2
From that site... there are 1,400,000 violent crimes in the US every year.
Now.. one of you parrot, empty headed lefties please explain how seatbelts save the lives of 1.4 million Americans every year????
i thought he already proved his point? clever way of looking at it too if you ask me.
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guys... you might save the lives of 10% of the accident victims in car wrecks by forcing them to wear seatbelts right? that might be what? 5,000 people.. that is 5,000 out of 300,000,000
now... there are 1,400,000 victims of violent attacks... that is.... 1,400,000 out of 300,000,000
sooooo.. what about "you are more likely to be attacked than to have your seatbelt save your life" did I not get right?
yet... you wear... are forced to wear.. seatbelts.. they are more trouble to put on and more uncomfortable to wear than to grab, and carry a handgun.
FBI stats show that firearms are used between 1.5 and 3 million times a year to stop crime. do seatbelts prevent anything even close to that?
Of course not.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
FBI stats show that firearms are used between 1.5 and 3 million times a year to stop crime. do seatbelts prevent anything even close to that?
lazs
And how many crimes are committed using firearms a year?
Dude, put the NRA pamphlet away and start thinking for yourself.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
And how many crimes are committed using firearms a year?
Dude, put the NRA pamphlet away and start thinking for yourself.
And how many deaths are caused by cars every year? Wanna compare the numbers?
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Originally posted by AKIron
And how many deaths are caused by cars every year? Wanna compare the numbers?
Im not the one who started comparing seatbelts with guns. ;) Cars are a useful part of everyday life for most, but a gun is not really useful for anything unless you are a soldier, hunter or a cop in some countries.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Im not the one who started comparing seatbelts with guns. ;) Cars are a useful part of everyday life for most, but a gun is not really useful for anything unless you are a soldier, hunter or a cop in some countries.
Or, unless someone stronger than you is threatening to take your possessions or your life, in which case a gun becomes infinitely more useful.
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a gun is only usefull if you want to kill someone. most people who held a gun to a mugger would probably just end up giving the mugger the gun anyhow.
maybe there are alot more people in American that feel they are happy to kill another person if the need presents itself. Most people around here are only happy to incapacitate a person if the need presents itself, even the muggers dont want to kill people.
having guns also makes people less likely to be capable of defending yourself without a gun. possibly.
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well.. I have no idea what the mugger will ultimately do. I have held a gun on people before.. I had no problem with knowing that I would shoot if they moved.
I don't know what they had in mind. I don't care. they crossed the line. If they were shot I would shoot to stop.. that is.. hit something on them that would stop them.. most likely they would die.
In my opinion.. they shot themselves.. sad but.. what ya gonna do? some people are just self destructive. Not my call. Their destiny was in their hands.
lazs
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lazs are you related to clint eastwood at all. that would be cool.
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Guns...
Here where i live we don't use guns.Fists get the job done.Guns are for weak.
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In some respects crodh... you are correct. In a position of weakness a gun is indeed an equalizer.. we all have been in a position of weakness tho when it was not to our advantage.
If not.. we will be. youth has a habit of leaving us.. our mothers and sisters are never a match for thugs tho.
One of my guys at work is 6'3" and about 250.. cocky too... he came to work with a bad back one day.. could hardly move.. I asked him if I needed to kick the living crap out of him. Just to prove I could. It would have been easy.
when he is well... I could still do it no problem with about 5 other guys helping.
lazs
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clint is the best coyboy of all time. the dude smoked so many cigarillos his lip moulded with a hole for them.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
clint is the best coyboy of all time. the dude smoked so many cigarillos his lip moulded with a hole for them.
Well that's got Freud written all over it. ;)
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one time i was riding my bike on the sidewalk around an airport and this huge obstinate weightlifter dude about 6'5' and 250 lbs was rollerblading with his workout bunny and he refused to move so i could get around him and he made a smartprettythang remark at me.
I told him, "You know, I've got half a mind to get off my bike and kick your prettythang right in front of your bimbo." He was so pissed he tried to come after me but he lost his balance, and was doing one of those "whoaaoo" things, waving his arms in the air. "I said, "Look at you, you dumbprettythang, you can't even skate."
Then i took off on my bike before he could take off his skates and try to catch me :D
the moral of the story is, always try to have an advantage of some kind if you are gonna mouth off at somebody bigger than you.
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When it comes to violence I'm all about the bear hug from the side. It's rib splitting fun.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Or, unless someone stronger than you is threatening to take your possessions or your life, in which case a gun becomes infinitely more useful.
But the chanses of that happening are minute. If it does happen i bet that in 99% of the time you can just hand over your possessions and walk away.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Well that's got Freud written all over it. ;)
jesus! what an unlikely typo :o
calling Dr Freud
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
See Rule #5
Id rather be a sheep than a dead dad.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Id rather be a sheep than a dead dad.
No, you'd rather put up your hands and leave your fate in the hands of a violent criminal:
hand over your possessions and walk away.
No thanks, I'd rather not have my life depend on a complete stranger who has already shown a willingness to commit violent crime. I'll keep my fate in my own hands, thanks.
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Originally posted by Leslie
I am no expert, but here's my viewpoint. About the only things you can do to survive if a person running amok comes in and starts shooting is either run and hide or put the offense on him, or maybe some of each. You have nothing to lose if there is no escape. I hope no one here ever runs into a situation like that.
Lazs makes some good points, and has more experience then most when it comes to rough customers. I respect his experience and opinion very much. It's easy to forget there is a lot of evil going on in the world, because most of the time we deal with nice people. We are taken by surprise when evil things happen. It is difficult to be on guard all the time as well, but it is necessary to do the best we can.
My thoughts are based on what I've heard over the years from people who I believe to be knowledgeable. If someone is out to get you they will try. There is a saying: To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Realize if someone is really after you, they will probably get you. Always take a death threat seriously.
On a different level with different motivations, thugs and muggers are opportunists looking for easy marks. They are as Lazs described, either after money or to harm you. Things you can do to avoid thuggery is give the appearance you are moving about with purpose. Don't go about looking like you are lost or aimlessly walking around. Don't look down at the ground or appear depressed. Give a healthy and robust appearance, like you are in shape and capable of handling yourself. Avoid places where trouble might happen, such as rough bars or bad parts of town. If you see an unsavory looking group headed toward you, cross the street and use that sidewalk. Avoid public intoxication where you might be unawares of what's going on around you. Keep an eye peeled in parking lots and at the gas station. Lock your car doors and keep windows rolled up. If bumped from behind, look to see who is in the car that bumped you before stopping and getting out to inspect damage.
Couple random thoughts:
Fighting a mugger who wants your wallet is not such a good idea. Sometimes a mugger may set you up by asking if you have a light, then mug you while you have your hand in your pocket. If he's after your wallet, take out the wallet and toss it on the ground in front of him. Do not hand it to him. He will more likely be distracted or run off if he has to pick up the wallet and it's scattered contents from the ground. This may give you time to get away as well.
Don't display a gun to a would be aggressor unless you are willing to kill him. It may happen that a would be aggressor will not be deterred by the sight of a gun. If this happens and he walks toward you, you must not allow him to get your gun or to harm you. You may have to shoot him, even if he is, or appears to be, unarmed. This would be a very hard thing to do for most folks including myself.
Carrying is very serious business and requires a serious attitude and a great responsibility. I haven't met Lazs but he sounds like someone worth knowing. From reading his posts I would feel perfectly comfortable around Lazs.
Les
Personally, I feel a respect and sense of understanding of Lazs.
He has had his brutishly blunt moments with me in the past but I believe he is honest to himself and introspective, nonetheless, about where his mind and heart stands on things as the Lazs of today.
He often makes me think of this guy...
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff232/Tigeress_ah/SamElliot.jpg)
I think his fear of the power of blue people is a bit far-fetched but hey, that is how he feels.
TIGERESS
Edit: I would be lying if I were to say the rugged individualist males I have known were not inherently sexy, by their very nature, all other things being equal... go figure.
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absolute difference between an individualist (and mostly.... American) than being a socialist...
We tend to not simply want to pay the "tax" to the mugger and hope for the best. we tend to want to be responsible for ourselves.
I am sure that will never make sense to nelson and his way of bending over and hoping for the best will never make sense to me..
Probly best if he stays there and I stay here.
lazs
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Well.. your crimerates speaks for itself.
Ill let the criminal take what I have. Im not poor, and the cops will find him later. If you wanna risk getting shot for something that can be replaced then be my guest. Im not that self-centered, but I guess thats part of beeing a so called "socialist" as you call it.
Have a nice day John Wayne & the gang :rofl
BOO!! (did i scare you?) :lol
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well.. I suppose the probly do speak for themselves... Our white crime rate is probly about the same as yours. I bet in a place like north and south dakota.. about the size and makeup of your country... I bet it is very comparable.
And.. those people are armed and don't think bending over is and droping drawers is a good solution.
If the only thing in the country that didn't look exactly like me was a snow bear.... I might not be quite so concerned either... course.. who would want to live in such a place?
lazs
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Well.. your crimerates speaks for itself.
Ill let the criminal take what I have. Im not poor, and the cops will find him later. If you wanna risk getting shot for something that can be replaced then be my guest. Im not that self-centered, but I guess thats part of beeing a so called "socialist" as you call it.
Have a nice day John Wayne & the gang :rofl
BOO!! (did i scare you?) :lol
I asked a Socialist friend of mine once... If a man is about to kill your son and you had a gun, would you shoot him or let him kill your son?
She is absolutely against any form of violence and guns and the death penalty and would vote to repeal the 2nd amendment yet, said she… “I would kill him under those conditions.”
In my view, we are humans first... lefties and righties second.
We all have instincts we might not even fully appreciate till the time comes which activates them.
TIGERESS
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See Rules #4, #5
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See Rules #4, #2
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Originally posted by Tigeress
I asked a Socialist friend of mine once... If a man is about to kill your son and you had a gun, would you shoot him or let him kill your son?
She is absolutely against any form of violence and guns and the death penalty and would vote to repeal the 2nd amendment yet, said she… “I would kill him under those conditions.”
In my view, we are humans first... lefties and righties second.
We all have instincts we might not even fully appreciate till the time comes which activates them.
TIGERESS
Tigeress, i doubt you understand the word "socialist"
Someones "political" views are more left-sided so this
person would not protectand fight with every weapon
to protect his family?
big error, political views have nothing to do with what you asked for.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Id rather be a sheep than a dead dad.
S! nils thats the best thing ive seen written here for a while.
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Oh Batty my son,
You have brought up an interesting topic here.....good luck with it to.
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hehe red, this was a byproduct of the latest suicide mall shooting story, this one was the guy from finland last month or so.
Nilsen VS Steve is our prime time fixture over here now :D
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See Rules #4, #5
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Nilsen has a point....his opinion is valid for him....
Steve has one also...also valid for Steve....
RedTop.....will take the 5th....and not let people know what is in RedTop's noggin. For the most part anyway:lol
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This was a situation where fighting back was necessary. This is the story as my friend told it, edited for language. We were in our early twenties when this happened.
My best friend was out nightclubbing with a girl he was dating. They had had a few drinks and danced on those really neat lit-up disco floors (these were the days when Disco was popular.) As they were leaving, the security guard was inside the club. He was drinking beer and not watching the parking lot.
My friend and his girl went to the parking lot to leave about 12 o'clock. He had a '73 Mustang which is a two-door automobile. He opened the passenger door for her and helped her in the car. He then went to the driver's door and opened it and got in.
He had seated himself but hadn't shut the door yet. A guy approached out of nowhere and asked directions at first, then pulled a .25 he had stolen from a pickup truck in the same parking lot earlier that night. He positioned himself between the driver's door and the car. The girl became absolutely hysterical screaming and the robber was becoming agitated and nervous. He pointed the gun at the girl, stretching his arm across between the steering wheel and my friend's chest, yelling "Gimme all your money b*ch or I'll blow your watermelon away."
My friend thought the robber was about to shoot and grabbed his arm and tried to get the gun away from him. He said that guy was jerking his arm and going crazy trying to get his arm free. His eyes were wide open and scared. When he broke free, the thug fell back running and fell down on the ground. My friend started to get out of the car and I think he was going to go after the s.o.b. to protect the girl. Thug fired one shot which hit the open driver's door dead center. My friend at that time changed his mind about getting out of the car and dove back in and covered his date. The robber got the heck out of there.
Armed robber was caught about a week later, and already had a list of burglaries against him. I think this might have been the first time he tried an armed robbery and was caught. Imho, he's very lucky my friend didn't get the gun away from him. He probably thought my friend had retrieved a gun of his own by the time he jerked his arm loose and fell down.
Les
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
See Rules #4, #5
because nilsen has a daughter to look after and he doesnt value any material substance over his duty to raise his creation fully.
so guns make it possible for the little guy to stand proud right?
think on this for a minute:
some times i find myself walking between houses at 2am-4am all through town and main roads. I have diverted my route to avoid groups of youths younger than me because i knew they would hassle me. does this make me a coward or smart?
if i had a gun would i walk right up to them and if they start something i just cap them right?
gang of teenages attack me with a bat then they are going to have to get shot and probably killed.
without the gun i am being realistic. 6 youths possibly armed, ok i stand no chance of beating them without getting hurt myself so i divert wound this row of houses before they even spot me.
with the gun im suddenly able to defend myself against 6 people, if i kill them. so i walk on past them and they start some watermelon and in the end they all die.
If i have to fight then i can do so with speed and accuracy, sometimes i have had to it is never pleasant afterwards no matter how much of a rush the actual fight is. but why would i deliver myself into the situation when a carefull eye and quick diversion canavoid everything.
personaly i prefer my method of avoiding the web rather than taunting the giant spider because i have some bug spray.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Id rather be a sheep than a dead dad.
Here's a 2 word solution to the Nilsen/Lazs debate.
Exploding wallet.
You hand it over, he walks away, a few seconds later the time delay fuse triggers a 2 ounce high-explosive charge and BANG!
Dead mugger, live sheep, I mean dad.
Yup... Perfect solution. Failsafe... Patent office, here I come!
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
because nilsen has a daughter to look after and he doesnt value any material substance over his duty to raise his creation fully.
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Just so I understand this: Because Nilsen has a daughter, were he faced with a mugger demanding his wallet, he should let the mugger decide if he lives or not? He shouldn't try to influence whether he stays alive at all, he should let a complete stanger, who is a violent felon in possession of a weapon, decide if he lives? This is exactly what he said he would do. The fact that this makes sense to anyone is rather appalling.
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Originally posted by lazs2
best you can do is be prepared to shoot him dead before he kills you or someone else..
lazs
Just wondering,so instead of disarming we need to arm everyone,did i get this right?
Thanks.
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where nilsen lives the most dangerous thing is when it doesnt snow enough and the piste becomes solid ice. we really dont care that you like guns. if i came to visit you i would absolutely love to shoot some big ****ing guns
why cant you understand that we dont need guns to feel man enough to take on anything life will throw at us?
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See Rules #4, #5
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Have those of you who have a view of "just hand it over" ever been the victim of a violent crime with an armed individual???
I have had the unfortunate experience of having to confront an armed criminal who had no problem using the firearm he had.
Two people were shot that day. One was an unarmed male who was defending his 75 year old mother from being tossed around her home during a home invasion robbery.
This criminal pointed his gun at her sons head and fired. Luckily for this brave man he put his arm over his face in an instinctive reaction and ended up taking the round in the arm instead of his face. It most likely saved his life.
The other person this "misguided soul" took a shot at happened to be me. As if that wasnt enough he then tried to run me over with his car to boot.
Well this sorry gentleman ended up being the second person that was shot that day, as I defended myself.
No.. I myself will not stand by and place my life into the hands of someone who has no reguard for the sanctity of human life. To do so in my opinion is foolish and could quite possibly cost you the life you are trying to protect with your passivity.
Deadly force should (in my opinion) always be a last resort for the protection of property.
I have said this before If im alone or with my family and someone wants to steal my car... He can have it... to me its not worth dying (or killing) over.. Same guy trys to take my car with my family still in it, he has already made the decision my car was worth HIM dying for and I will oblige him without hestitation.
As stated I personally refuse to gamble with my life or the lives of my family that some scumbag with a gun is going to be satisfied and have the clarity to decide all he wants is some property and doesnt mind leaving witnesses behind.
Now if you choose to do so that is your business.
I am sure that after they scoop up the remains of your loved ones they will most likely catch the guy that did it and he can go to prison for the rest of his miserable life. I am quite sure that thought will comfort you and keep you warm on those long and lonely nights.
I am also quite sure that if something so unfortunate were to befall anyone they would change their position on using or having firearms for personal protection..... Just a guess.
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #5
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B@tfink, while carrying a gun may give a false sense of security, I would just about have to say a person who does so does so at their own risk. It would be foolish of them to go around looking forward to shooting someone. I do not believe the majority of people carrying guns are out there thinking they are invincible. By analogy, some people who are very tough have been known to go looking for trouble and getting into fights. That does not necessarily mean everyone with such a capability of toughness goes around looking for trouble. I would say the opposite is true most of the time. I believe someone carrying a hand gun can be responsible, and that most permitted carriers are very careful about what they do and they do not go looking for trouble. I also believe folks should not carry a gun if they are uncomfortable with it, and yes it could become a hindrance in a fist fight scenario. You certainly wouldn't want your gun to go flying out of your pocket in a grappling ordeal. It is the gun carrier's responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen.
Now this is all fine about being a man if you are in good shape and have grappling experience. After about age 50, macho becomes expensive and less meaningful. Actually it is seen by older, more mature folks as not being a wise path. I believe that as we get older and slower and out of shape either by choice or other reasons, we become more careful about how we go about business. I would say that if someone chose to carry a gun for self protection, they are not very likely to seek trouble and certainly aren't trying to be macho as long as the gun is concealed. You must never confuse concealed carry with Hollywood's Charles Bronson character in the Vigilante. It just ain't so.
More than likely, anyone legally carrying a gun is going out of their way to avoid trouble the same way you do even though you can defend yourself and can even put the hurt on someone. I don't want any means of self defense to be banned, be it concealed hand guns or martial arts. This has really less to do with manliness as much as it has to do with fundamental rights of free men and women in a free society. It is unconscionable to impede these rights in any way, form or fashion. It is way off base for any govt. to even desire to do so.
Les
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See Rule #5
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steve
i never intended to talk about bloody guns again with you over there, i simply came into your character assasination of nilsen who just wanted to be the best dad he knows he can be in his own method, not yours.
you made it another gun vs no gun confrontation with me without realising i was not here for that old debate at all, yet i almost found myself being lured back to fight you on anti gun vs gun laws again, even though i dont give a damn about the gun ownership debate and never have. when i got into the swing of it you got so irate that you walked out instead of trying to combat my point.
Everything Pro Gun you can tell me i cannot deny and dont wish to, please do other people the courtesy of not having to agree with you and change their lives or their country instantly just because you have guns.
honestly, its worse than gays when coming out became 'ok'.
its like anyone so incredibly pro guns is trying to force the other people to be gay also. we dont mind that you have guns, but we dont want to worry about us having them untill they are as available as in some other countries as a first time starting point.
basicaly unless you are coming to england to campaign parliment for legalising firearms in england then hey, maybe we can go over the pros and cons of gun ownership again and it actualy be worthwhile, although i suspect even with a change in my country's laws i might actualy still not really give a crap who if a person wants or doesnt want to carry a gun.
im sorry i pissed you off and i never cared much about whatever you were trying to proove to nilsen, and then me.
Leslie
thank you sir as always you make your point so clear i cannot disagree.
would you agree that in some instances, especialy involving young people the possesion of a gun will drag some people further into trouble than they possibly know when without a gun they would have kept out and ran off to watch tv?
the sad part maybe the shootout between the respectable pensioner who has never fired a shot in anger and the teenage addict who just has to find another 20 notes to get a fix. someone has to die or bottle it and become the dominated but only because both knew the other quite likely had a weapon that will kill on their person.
never the less, when the punk kid pulls a gun on you because they are legal in your country, it makes perfect sense to be a sharp and trained marksman and arm yourself legaly.
then you must be able to see that i understand why guns are part of some peoples life and im ok with it and dont wish to join in at the moment.
KGB -
well, if angry steve came to my house and pointed a gun at me i would sure look pretty silly. and i know steve doesnt have a fragile brain but yup i think he might be dangerous too. we should not anger him further.
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See Rule #2
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Originally posted by Leslie
B@tfink, while carrying a gun may give a false sense of security, I would just about have to say a person who does so does so at their own risk. It would be foolish of........................... .................
Les
My friend,i noticed that for Americans(plz forgive me) first priority is always looks.If you big and Strong then I'm supposed to be afraid of you.Why?I blame juridical system.People are simply afraid of being sued.Every time i see Americans fight i laugh my butt off,(again,forgive me)its pathetic.It rarely ends up with fist fight.Usually its someone is trying to hit someone in the balls or over the head with bottle.Thers no "concept" of fair fight ever.If I'm Small why should i fight fair?
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
See Rule #5
:lol
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Nils is thinking big picture. You guys are thinking small screen.
If you have no children and nobody depending upon you then playing hero may be an appropriate response. BUT, if you do then descretion is the better part of valor.
Do you really want your loved ones to become collateral damage if you screw the pooch over a billfold?
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Originally posted by rpm
Nils is thinking big picture. You guys are thinking small screen.
If you have no children and nobody depending upon you then playing hero may be an appropriate response. BUT, if you do then descretion is the better part of valor.
Do you really want your loved ones to become collateral damage if you screw the pooch over a billfold?
Do you really want to let a violent criminal decide if you live or die?
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do you also live in fear that you might get hit by a bus when you go to the store to buy ammo?
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Speaking as someone who has been confronted by a violent armed individual on my property, I say stand your ground.
Due to the fact that we are not permitted to own guns here in Oz (evidentially the criminals deserve to own them more than we do) all I had to defend my house was a handy length of wood. Unfortunately this was at the entrance to the wrong door. This guy came to the back door.
My partner at the time called the police but I was not going to stand by and let the guy come in. They are called "run throughs", where they come in the back door, run through taking all they can grab, out the front and into a waiting car.
Anyway this guy didn't make it in the door. I have a rule for situations like this, the first guy through the door dies, and I was fully intent on killing this one. In the end it took his partner to come out of the car and deliver several kicks to the body and head before I let him go.
The score, me some bruising and a broken rib and a nasty headache, the other guy, 2 broken arms, 3 missing teeth and severe concussion. Did he make it into the house? Not even past the doorstep.
The weapons in question? he had a pissy flick knife and a .22 Saturday night special. He never even got the chance to raise the arm he was holding it in.
The police turned up 30 minutes after it was all over.
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Originally posted by KgB
My friend,i noticed that for Americans(plz forgive me) first priority is always looks.If you big and Strong then I'm supposed to be afraid of you.Why?I blame juridical system.People are simply afraid of being sued.Every time i see Americans fight i laugh my butt off,(again,forgive me)its pathetic.It rarely ends up with fist fight.Usually its someone is trying to hit someone in the balls or over the head with bottle.Thers no "concept" of fair fight ever.If I'm Small why should i fight fair?
Yes it is that way it seems. It's very effective for a small fighter to get in low to the balls, or even hit someone over the head with a bottle. You know, that's not unheard of here in America. That's probably the best way for bar room brawls though. It would be unusual for that to happen most anywhere else.
Looks are a form of self defense. Most people are not hip on attacking someone big. Profanity is also an effective weapon in some circumstances. It throws people off guard momentarily.:D
However you are right concerning a fair fight. All fights are/can be life and death situations, or at least should be thought of that way.
Les
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Originally posted by rpm
Nils is thinking big picture. You guys are thinking small screen.
If you have no children and nobody depending upon you then playing hero may be an appropriate response. BUT, if you do then descretion is the better part of valor.
Do you really want your loved ones to become collateral damage if you screw the pooch over a billfold?
Sometime in the early 90s, I was walking with my dad in Paris, France, in the underground mall (sorta) of La Defense esplanade, a central public place of Paris'. As we were about to step up a stairway at the end of a stub in the mall layout, with a few pillars placed concentricaly with the stairways' foot where such a pillar would have been, two people went from bickering to fighting, and within seconds one had a gun out.
This is France, gun-free country like a lot of others, yadda yadda.
At this point my dad freaked out, as it had probably been a while since he'd run into the middle of firearmed conflict. He wasn't freaked out for his life but ours, my two little brothers' (then toddlers just recently walking on their own) and mine. All I remember was him hiding us behind one of those pillars. It was luck that no shot went off because the guy holding the gun was sweating like hell and obviously afraid of what he'd gotten himself into by pulling out the gun. Had he not been afraid, he'd have had time to plug as many people as his mag capacity allowed, since just about everyone ducked for cover.
Anyone with a CCW in the public could have pretended to be unarmed, and would have had plenty of time to incapacitate the bugger from behind one of those pillars, especialy considering said bugger's target fixation (he must have stood still pointing his gun at the other guy a minute or so before that other guy wised-up and charged).
Another instance pretty much identical happened in Canada, in Toronto, years later at a Harbourfront music festival, late at night. We weren't really near the gun toters that time, but close enough that the run-away stampede was pretty bad even for me at 13 years old or so.
There was plenty of space and cover for a few CCWs to put down anyone pointing their guns at anyone not involved in what was probably a gang fight.
You don't have to live in fear to avoid getting hit by buses. You don't have to be paranoid to recognize threats to you, and take precautions for their prevention as well as resolution if prevention fails.
It's simple fact and nothing extraordinary. The one constant in anti-gun rethoric is the near-paranoia that anyone will pull out a gun and go on a rampage. Only insane people do that, and they're few in numbers, as well as easily detected.
My dad carrying a gun would have put a quick and good end to the first anecdote. No paranoia needed.
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All points are valid to some extent depending on were you live.
Muggers are not armed here so why should I be.
How well armed they are elsewere I dont know, but i still think the chanses of things ending badly are greatly increased if you try drawing a gun rather than giving it up and walking away but thats just me.
I just get a rise out of trying to get lazs to pull his "socialist" trump card as many times as i can whatever the topic. I usually succeed within one or two posts.
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Nislen if you are carrying but don't have a chance of survival if you pulled out your weapon at a given moment, then it's a no-brainer that you don't pull out said weapon. That doesn't exclude the possibility of carrying.
It is better to carry than not. Better safe than sorry. Pascal's wager is analogous.
Another run-in my dad had with guns happened in some underground parking lot in France. He was walking to his car when someone held him up at gunpoint. All he had to give them was his beeper.
The muggers walked away with it, from what I apreciated from my dad's description, borderline disgusted they'd risked pulling out a gun for nothing - i.e. they were about to shoot him for not having anything worthwhile to give them.
How does the above situation warrant not carrying a gun? It doesn't.
He could have shot them as they turned their back to him (convinced he wasn't carrying), which would've possibly saved other lives later in time, but that's another ethical debate.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
All points are valid to some extent depending on were you live.
Muggers are not armed here so why should I be.
How well armed they are elsewere I dont know, but i still think the chanses of things ending badly are greatly increased if you try drawing a gun rather than giving it up and walking away but thats just me.
I just get a rise out of trying to get lazs to pull his "socialist" trump card as many times as i can whatever the topic. I usually succeed within one or two posts.
Nilsen,
You have a valid point if you live in an area, or country, where the general public doesn't have ready access to concealed weapons (pistols) then in fact you have little need for a firearm.
Common sense should always take precidence over valor ( as was stated before) if you have little to no chance of survival by attempting to use a firearm obviously DONT.
However conversely if involved in a situation where bullets are flying at you and all you can do is pull out your hand with some skin on it, you are going to find there is another use for Depends other than incontinence:lol
Honestly if I lived in a country where hardly anyone was armed, I probably would not be armed either. However I dont and firearms are a part of the culture of the United States.
Thus I am a product of my environment :p
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I would like to add that in the United States, need is determined by the gun owner and not by the government, unless there are circumstances where someone should not own a gun..
Les
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I think that a lot of you guys are suffering either/or from "euro syndrome" or "young healthy male myopia syndrome"
euro syndrome is that you are in a tiny little country where everyone looks just like you and the crime rate is low.
the young man one is simply the myopic thinking that you are young and strong and therfore... everyone who ever is in a bad situation will be young and strong and male too... heck... you may never have been in a fight in your life but... you have seen movies and heck... you work out!
You have never met a real bad guy.. even at my advanced age.. I bet I could kick the crap out of some of you who think "they can take care of themselves" I don't fight fair. I know I could take any of you if I could pick two guys to help.
So myopic guys says... "If it looks bad I will just run away or give em everything"
What if you can't run or what if they are just feeling mean? Not everyone is a world class sprinter like yourself. What about your wife? what about the guy with a bad leg? what about the 70 year old dad? Would you... do you.. tell your wife that if someone wants to rape her she should just give em what they want? Do you know how brutal (even to death) some rapes are here?
Tigress said socialist because.. it is the socialist who thinks that he can tell others what to do. It is the socialist who feels that society trumps individuals and that they can take away rights... Until it is them who is being attacked.
It does no good to say that you would kill to protect your own if you have taken away everyones (including yourselfs) right to have the tools to kill..
Anyone who would seek to take away my right to defend myself is not just some socialist in a debate of civilized men... he is a mortal enemy.
lazs
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KGB asked if I thought it was better if everyone was armed. I think it is better if everyone who wants to be armed and has a basic (simple thing really) grasp of the mechanics and safety and laws is allowed to do so.
I think that there can be laws against carrying openly but that concealed is a good thing. I would also point out that if you gave everyone the opportunity... some states do.. to carry guns concealed... only about 10% would and only about half the time... even tho it is very simple and cheap to do so.
Still.. this would be a tremendous deterent. On in ten at the mall... one in ten at an event. Criminals here fear armed citizens...study after study has shown this to be true. If they know that one in ten is armed.. they are more polite.. they shift from personal crime to property crime. I can live with that.
I would rather they ransack my house when I am gone than I have to shoot em.. sure... I would/have been.. angry.. but better that they fear people and go after property.
A mugging is not like that tho.. they get off on the power trip.. the helpless victim.. rapes aren't like that.. sometimes.. they don't like the way you are looking at em or your color or they just feel like hurting someone.
So yeah.. I do believe that having the bad guys fear the people is a good thing.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Would you... do you.. tell your wife that if someone wants to rape her she should just give em what they want?
lazs
Very eager to hear the response to that one.
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Oh for crying out loud...
Fun with statistics.. lazs' numbers are intersting, but unfortunately all wet. Of course he also likes to be specific enough with his allegations so that they are provable even though they don't prove his point.
"You are more likely to be attacked or mugged than you are to be in a wreck where a seatbelt would save you."
Then he compared total attacks to total deaths in auto accidents.
When he should have compared total attacks to total accidents, but wait. That still begs the question... what is his point?
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See Rule #5
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tell your wife that if someone wants to rape her she should just give em what they want?
*deleted... not nice*
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I'm with Laz - I dont think everyone should be armed - but I do think we should have the capacity to be armed if so desired. Controls are in place to hopefully weed out the unstable (which would rule me out - but I dont desire a weapon anyway) - if they were only applied correctly and stringently.
I'm not going anywhere near the wife/children conundrum - my answer would probably get me png'd.
Wurzel
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See Rules #4, #5
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Another name for that monger is elitist and a very sick one at that. I get so tired of some maroon just randomly killing people just for showing up to work, going shopping, or stopping for gas. They are the true cowards in our society.
A lady on my side of town was killed randomly about a week ago and all she did was stop for gas. It tugs at my soul. She left behind 2 children and a husband.
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mt... what about the seatbelt thing did you not get? you are far more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than you are to ever have a seatbelt save your life. I am talking total numbers or per capita... your choice.
Heck.. I am all about choice. don't get angry because the numbers don't work out for you...
lazs
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
Tigeress, i doubt you understand the word "socialist"
Someones "political" views are more left-sided so this
person would not protectand fight with every weapon
to protect his family?
big error, political views have nothing to do with what you asked for.
She is a self-identified Socialist... from her own lips.
I read her self-identification two ways... either she is a full blown communist or an extreme lefty.
Since her politics and mine don't agree she and I don't discuss politics.
She is free to think however she wishes as am I. :)
TIGERESS
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think that a lot of you guys are suffering either/or from "euro syndrome" or "young healthy male myopia syndrome"
euro syndrome is that you are in a tiny little country where everyone looks just like you and the crime rate is low.
the young man one is simply the myopic thinking that you are young and strong and therfore... everyone who ever is in a bad situation will be young and strong and male too... heck... you may never have been in a fight in your life but... you have seen movies and heck... you work out!
You have never met a real bad guy.. even at my advanced age.. I bet I could kick the crap out of some of you who think "they can take care of themselves" I don't fight fair. I know I could take any of you if I could pick two guys to help.
So myopic guys says... "If it looks bad I will just run away or give em everything"
What if you can't run or what if they are just feeling mean? Not everyone is a world class sprinter like yourself. What about your wife? what about the guy with a bad leg? what about the 70 year old dad? Would you... do you.. tell your wife that if someone wants to rape her she should just give em what they want? Do you know how brutal (even to death) some rapes are here?
Tigress said socialist because.. it is the socialist who thinks that he can tell others what to do. It is the socialist who feels that society trumps individuals and that they can take away rights... Until it is them who is being attacked.
It does no good to say that you would kill to protect your own if you have taken away everyones (including yourselfs) right to have the tools to kill..
Anyone who would seek to take away my right to defend myself is not just some socialist in a debate of civilized men... he is a mortal enemy.
lazs
That's pretty much how I see pure socialism.
I don't buy it... I'm not a sheep.
TIGERESS
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See Rules #4, #5
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
steve
i never intended to talk about bloody guns again with you over there, i simply came into your character assasination of nilsen who just wanted to be the best dad he knows he can be in his own method, not yours.
Bat, it's not a pro gun argument. I simply think that folks should look out for each other. Your police force actually advocates witnesses walking away from a crime beign committed(like a mugging)*. I disagree with that.
I think it is incumbent upon each of us to try to help the victim, for us as members of society to look out for each other, short of the point where one simply becomes a victim as well.
* sorry, should have qualified this. I have read this, not experienced this first hand.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
why cant you understand that we dont need guns to feel man enough to take on anything life will throw at us?
Here is an alarming trend in your country that may one day dissuade you.
Terry Grange, Chief Constable of Dyfed Powys and the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) spokesman on domestic violence and sex crime, who heads a team of more than 20 researchers, said: 'I don't think you can sensibly deny that there is a higher incidence of rape and a more routine use of violence, and also of weapons-based violence where it used to be fists and feet.'
Certainly the odds of a particular person being mugged are small so it's still reasonable to feel safe.
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Bottom line in all this is , that Europe and the U.S. are very different in what firearms mean.
What happens in Europe and the way they think is much different than here.
Criminals here have access to guns. Bottom line. IF they want them they can get them and WE as a country know this. We as a country WANT firearms and the right to keep them. But , with that right comes risk. Risk of people getting thier hands on them that are hell bent on using them for murder.
WE accept this as a part of life and MANY are o.k. with that. I'm ok with the current way firearms are purchased. IF a bad person wants a gun , they WILL find a way to get one. After they kill someone with it people want to make a big deal about guns in general. Chances are that the kiler purchased it illegally anyway. Possibly stole it.
Killing someone such as the person that went into that mall and opened fire , would be tough. I don't care who you are , killing another individual has GOT to be hard to do if your a normal thinking person and not some whack job.
It comes down to choice. THo some here want agree with it , if a person WANTS to choose to take the high road and let the perp have thier wallet or car or stuff , then they make that choice. It's not for ME nor anyone else to decide for them. If something WORST happens in the robbery or mugging whatever the case maybe , then that person has to live with that choice for ever.
IF you choose to pull the gun , and do what you think is right in your mind , then everything that happens from that moment on is your choice as well. And you and you alone will have to live with what happens.
I mentioned earlier about an incident....without details and more long winded post , I had a person 8 ft. with thier back to me at midnight coming out of my back yard standing thier as I told them to stop. I had that gun pointiing directly at thier head. Now , I was shaking prolly just as much as that person. AFter all was said and done , it was a kid , looking for his dog. He had a retractable leash in his hand and it was VERY dark.
What is I had shot him? I was sick to my stomache after that.....IF he had been an intruder or was meaning harm , I could have a would have shot him. But it all turned out okl.
Point is.....Pulling that gun.....and pointing at another human being is very very sickening and scarey.
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Originally posted by AKIron
And how many deaths are caused by cars every year? Wanna compare the numbers?
#1 Motor Vehicle Accidents – Approximately 47,000 deaths per year
4. The US Centers for Disease Control reports that in 2001, there were a total of 20,308 deaths from homicide in the US.
I just compared them for him.
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Originally posted by MORAY37
I just compared them for him.
Of course your reference for homicides did not specify method but even if there were guns in every instance cars are still far more deadly.
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that was not the point.. not what I said at all.
You all buckle up like good little sheeple but.. of the 47,000 deaths a year in cars... how many were prevented due to seatbelts? every fender bender where someone is wearing a seatbelt is called "saved by seatbelt" these days but.... using their numbers.. maybe 5,000 are "saved" I think they are exaggerating but.... say 5,000 and that is with a law that makes it a sin to not wear one.. you will lose your money and livelyhood and if you resist..your life over it..
Now.. every year.. about 1.5 million crimes are stopped with civilian held firearms (to take the FBI low figure)... say that only 1% of those would have resulted in a death.. that would be 15,000 saved by firearms.
but.. that is not what I said at all... I didn't say save your life... just be a victim of a violent crime... you are far more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in your lifetime than to have your life saved by a seatbelt.
latest figures for violent crime in the US is 1,450,000 a year.
The numbers work out about 1 violent crime per 200 people.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_vio_cri_percap-crime-violent-per-capita
course.. if you live in a craphole blue area it is much higher... a good red area.. much lower but...
With at 1 in 200 chance every year... how does that stack up to the tiny little risk of driving without a seatbelt?
If I have to choose between what is the best safety precaution... I will choose the gun over the seatbelt every time.
lazs
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I guess if you were really fast and had lotsa bullets you could shoot yer way out through some SOB pulling out in front of you. ;)
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For the record Ive used firearms to protect myself and others many, many times. True I have a tin star on my chest but that doesnt really mean anything. The truth is guns are extremely effective in preventing attacks on innocent individuals. The most important defense is probably what you have between you ears but the 2nd one, without question, is having a really big gun to pull out.
Using guns,or at least pulling them out, and I prefer a .45, Ive stopped many a violent offender, caught many a violent offender, prevented many a violent crime, and generally put many a violent criminal stunninghunk into a cage for decades.
Just last year some gangbanger emptied a .357 mag at us in our squad car and when we cornered him in a ghetto apartment I gave him 2 choices. Either come out peacefully and go to jail or Im going to empty this SIG 220 into his guts. He chose the former and chose 60 years in a cage to eternity in a box.
I have found, with great experience mind you, that guns are very effective tools for self defense. Even the threat of getting shot full of holes has prevented many a major crime.
Another thing ive noticed is that the Liberal anti-gun crowd still retains this childish view that all people are basically good, even criminals, and that they are instead victims of environment and social conditioning. Not really responsible for their crimes.
Well I got news for these "enlightened people". One million years ago we were all a bunch of monkeys looking for a bone to gnaw on. We had rotten specimens then and we have them now. A lot of these creeps just have no soul inside when you look into their eyes and the only option we have is to keep them in a cage for life, or, give me a hot shot to pay for their horrid crimes.
And some of these crimes are just horrible. One X-mas eve about 15 years ago I had to handle a murder of a 6yo girl that her body building father beat to death on X-mas. We had to carry her to the morgue, her helpless little body beaten to a pulp and her internal organs ruptured. I remember she had lovely china blue eyes..............
So these Liberal fools can count on the inherent goodness of all men for self protection. But I myself will continue to use a .45 ACP, with a backup 9mm, and a lot of spare clips. And when I walk into a public place I miss nothing, nobody, and ID all escape routes.
Cause you see I dont believe in the inherent goodness of all men. 24 years of working the streets of a big city taught me that.