Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunthr on November 10, 2007, 10:49:28 AM
-
This is a great lunch break read i stumbled across - of interest to self-defense shooters:
http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm
i'm thinking this fella named "Deadmeat" has enough anecdotal matierial to write a book. good writer too.
-
It's pretty obvious he's a Cooper fan. I don't mind saying that as I am as well. Cooper had some empirical observations that he based his opinions on, he just didn't have the scientific background that gave him more credibility to those who place credence in number crunching and statisticians.
-
anyone interested in firearms for self defense should read this guy and marshall..
Real gunfights with real guns are what you want to look at.
I agree with everything the guy says.. maybe because his favorites are my favorities... and for the same reasons.
For defensive handguns... I like my 44 mag (damn the overpenetration...I want the guy to go down)
I like my 360 PD in .357 cause.. the 357 always gets the job done and the PD is as much trouble as a cell phone to carry.. and.. it is a revolver.. you can shoot it while it is still in your jacket pocket. If it don't hit em.. it will set em on fire and make em deaf.
The 45... only lately have I gotten fond of this caliber and only since the excellent KImbers came out.. love that kimber..
lazs
-
Uh Laz,
If you shoot the gun in YOUR pocket it will set YOUR clothing on fire, not his. If he's deaf or not I don't care but you might want to rethink the benefits of being on fire yourself......
:p
-
LOL.. yep.. it will do as you say. I think it will probly do his too. I doubt I would ever fire the thing in my pocket but it is kinda cool to know that you can if you have to.. and.. unlike a semi auto.. you will be able to shoot it again...
clothes being on fire will be an admitted distraction tho.
lazs
-
Good article. All is said in layman's terms.
Hell, I know zilch about guns and I understood it all & learned a great deal.
One question for you guys here that are gun gurus though:
The article mentions its best to use the bigger caliber to 'stop' the guy from getting a 2nd shot at you and recomends using the .45 or a .357 since the 9mm needs more than one round usually to get the job done.
However he doesnt tackle the use of small, 9mm automatic weapons vs the semi .45.
I'd think that if I have a weapon that can squeeze off more than 10 rounds a second it would be more effective in chance to hit and damage inflicted than having a .45 that can fire 3 rounds a second.
What say you?
-
Its all about where you place the bullet. And even then people can take an incredable amount of damage and still fight on and kill you. But overall? I'd take bullet placement and bullet construction as being more important then a particular caliber.
And even more important then any of that is tactical awareness.
I would never carry anything less then .38/9mm in size.
-
Tac your question is a good excample of the confusion that is still out there in the world concerning firearms. People hear the word automatic and they assume that means full auto. Pull the trigger and the gun shoots until it's empty. This is not actually the case.
First you have to know what type of weapon your talking about. There are the three basic groups of firearms and all 3 have different groups within them.
1 Handguns. A handgun is any firearm that can be held in one hand and fired. The two basic types of handguns are the automatic and the revolver.
Automatic handguns, other than a handfull of special purpouse guns, fire in what is known as the semi automatic mode. Pull the trigger, gun fires and automaticaly reloads anouther round from a magazine and the gun is ready to fire again. The trigger must be pulled for every shot. A 9mm Beretta pistol and a Colt .45ACP operate the same way. Both guns will fire as fast as the person can pull the trigger.
Revolvers fire the rounds from a cylinder located behind the barrel. Depending on the make of the gun they can hold as little as five rounds or up to ten. Six rounds is the common configuration for most revolvers hence the nickname of "six shooter".
Revolvers and automatics operate in two common modes. Single action or double action. Single action means the hammer must be manually cocked before the gun will fire. Double action means that you can cock the hammer manually or simply pulling the trigger will also cock the hammer. A double action revolver will fire faster than a single action for this reason. Some automatic pistol require the shooter to cock the hammer before the gun will fire just like a single action revolver. Good excample of this is the Browning Hi Power 9mm and the Colt 1911 .45.
2. Rifles. There are a ton of different categories of rifle. Mussel loaders, bolt action, automatics, breach loaders. Then you can toss in sub machine guns which are somewhere in between a rifle and a pistol.
Mussel loaders are just that. You have to pour the powder (either black powder or pyrodex) down the barrel. Then you ram the bullet down after the powder. Most modern mussel loaders will use a percusion cap to fire the main charge but there are still people that use flint rock and matchlock style mussel loaders.
Bolt action rifles are either single shot or magazine fed type weapons. These reguire the shooter to manually operate the bolt to chamber a round in the gun. Once fired the shooter has to manually operate the bolt to extract the spent case and to load a new round. Bolt action rifles are generally considered the most accurate of all the rifle types out there.
Automatic rifles operate either in a semi or full automatic mode. Many semi automatic rifles cannot operate in a full auto mode. The priciple of operation though is the same as for an automatic pistol. Every time a round is fired the weapon chambers the next round automaticly. Military style rifles will have a full auto capability. Pull the trigger and the weapon keeps shooting until the shooter lets go of the trigger or the weapon runs out of ammo. The M-16 and AK-47 are the prime excamples of this.
Sub Machine guns are kind off their own class of weapons but I tend to lump them in with rifles. They tend to have all the same features of most automatic rifles but fire a pistol round instead of full power rifle rounds. They are a niche weapon. Generally being more accurate than a pistol at closer ranges, but lacking in the long range accuracy and take down power of a full size rifle. At ranges from 5ft to 50 yards a sub gun is great.
3. Last but not least the Shotgun. Shot guns also have several classes of weapons. Automatics, pump action, single shot breach loaders.
Automatic shotguns are just like automatic rifles. Most are semi auto in operation but there are some full auto capable weapons out there.
Classic pump action. Probably the most popular version of shotgun EVER. It's easily recognized by the manual means of "pumping" the foregrip of the gun to the rear and then back forward to chamber a round and then extract the spent shell after firing. There is also NO mistaking the sound a pump action shotgun makes when the action is being cycled.
Single shot shotgun are just that. You have to manualy load each indvidual shell into the chamber then close the brach to be able to fire. The classic side by side double barrel shotgun and the popular over/under double guns are breach load designs.
So with all of that being said to further your knowledge of firearms your question of using a 9mm "automatic" vs a .45 "semi" is now answered. In the case of a devensive handgun the 9mm automatic and the semi .45 are both actually firing in the semi automatic mode and at roughly the same rate of fire depending on the shooter. In this case, yes a .45 would be the better choice due to it's higher stopping power over the 9mm for same amount of rounds fired.
-
Gotcha.
-
The Finnish killer did it all with a .22.
BTW, I killed many bulls with a .22 shot into the head, - from the front.
Depends where you hit, and if it gets reflected of bones and such. If you want to be sure with a chest shot, to KILL, you need a lot of power. It will need to be big and fast and penetrate. Well, the punch is after all speed x weight.
If you hit in the gut, just about anything will go through, - a hollowpoint is very lethal. If it is a big shot in the middle of the gut, none hp, it may go through the spine. Now, anything going through the spine will drop you like a potatoe bag. Basically, any round going through the soft chest at the base of your heart should drop you right away.
If you want to be safe, it's best to have a 20.mm though :t
-
Originally posted by lazs2
snip
For defensive handguns... I like my 44 mag (damn the overpenetration...I want the guy to go down)
lazs, as I've said previously I'm a .44MAG aficionado like you. Back when I was a real shooting enthusiast it was the primary focus of my attention where handguns are concerned.
I've never heard you mention actually killing with it. Have you? I have, quite a bit. My experience was that it can actually be ineffective as a fast killer due specifically to over-penetration. It can and does produce spectacular results if it "hooks up", because of all the energy it carries, but if it goes through-and-through its liable to leave your target still active, unless it managed to touch a vital organ on the way through (and in that case is unlikely to perform better than a smaller caliber).
Simply put, whatever energy exits with the bullet is wasted, period. It doesn't matter how much energy leaves the muzzle, its all about how much is dissipated in the target.
For that reason, while I see the .44MAG as the ultimate sporting handgun, for self defense I believe the .45ACP and the .357MAG are the best choices for self-defense. They both will tend to expend more energy in most cases into a target smaller and less tough than something substantial like large boars than the .44MAG. Trust me on this, I've shot enough animals with the .44MAG to know what I'm saying. If I am going to have to make a fast snapshot with a pistol to save my life, I wanna be shooting my 1911.
-
Well, the performance of a 44 Magnum depends on the round you use and what you use it on. For thin skinned game, and against humans, the 210 Winchester Silvertip, or the Federal 180 grain JHC (Sierra bullet) work really well. The 240 grain stuff just doesn't work, and the 300 grain stuff doesn't either, not on anything that isn't thick skinned and heavy boned.
The bigger, heavier bullets are good at deep penetration and smashing bone. The lighter hollow points and hollow cavities do real well, provided they aren't redline loads. Sure, the hole left by a 240, 260, 300, or 320 grain bullet will eventually kill thin skinned game in the 120 to 300 pound range, with light bones. It might even instantly incapacitate, if you hit the right spot. But usually, for a lot of shooters, it leaves game to be tracked, because it doesn't put the game down FAST without really good placement
Now a 180 or 210, if you're not driving them up around 1700 to 1900 feet per second, expand REALLY nice, you get a dime sized entrance and a softball sized exit if you hit bone, or a golf ball to tennis ball sized exit if you don't hit bone. A lot of tissue disruption as well.
I used to see guys using 240 soft point or 240 hollow point bullets on deer, even from rifles, and wonder why they didn't work. Most often they got a 44 caliber hole in and out, and they didn't hit the spine or the heart, they often didn't hit a lung either. Hit a deer high and to the rear in the chest and you get a hole that doesn't do much. And usually those 240 grain loads, if they are factory ammo, don't clock much above 1200 feet per second. They aren't moving fast enough to make them work. A 240 needs to be cooking along at 1400 to 1500, not 1200.
My hunting loads for deer, a 180 JHC at 1800+, is probably too hot for personal defense. But it really performs on deer. My heavy large game loads, 300 solids at 1300+ are good bear or boar stoppers. But they'd just punch 44 caliber holes in the target used for personal defense. Unless you're defending against guys with body armor or driving vehicles. THEN the penetration might be a real advantage.
The factory Winchester 210 Silvertip load is a mid range load, and it would, and has, performed well on humans, I think there are about a dozen cases or so. But even that doesn't make the 44 a great personal defense weapon. And Lord knows how I LOVE a 44 Magnum.
In my house, with the possible exception of Dad's old Colt Agent 38 Special (really a beloved heirloom more than anything else, Dad just believed it should always be loaded, so it is), the personal defense weapons are all 45 and 44 caliber. A nice big 180-230 JHC moving at 850 to 1000 is as good as it gets. There's a nice little 44 Special with 180 JHC ammo, and various 45 ACP weapons with either 185 JHC or 230 JHC. I'll agree that the 125 JHC 357 +P+ is a beast. But it's a beast on both ends, the noise and recoil, while not intolerable for a recoil junkie like me, are a little much for MOST shooters.
-
Yeap, you do make a good point re: .44 Special. If you do prefer to use your .44 wheelgun for self defense, either factory .44 Special or appropriately charged handloads would be the way to go.
I used to load .44MAG cases with 240 grain SWC bullets and Bullseye to about 950-1000 fps as a target load. That loading was also the bomb for shooting bowling pins, very controllable recoil thus fast for followup shots. I reckon it would be great as a self defense load.
-
that link was an interesting read, long , but interesting all the same
angus, you must slaughter your own cattle? mine get meet their maker at the freezing works. cattle are too exspensive to lose so i only bump off the occasional crook one that myself and medical science cant keep alive.
down cows with plenty of age on them with their usual hard as heck skull usualy get a .22 in an eye.
as for mature bulls, i only ever had to shoot two of them. one was almost at deaths door when i put him out of his misery with a .44mag rifle. the other one wasnt so easy. he was a toey mother. the mad sod broke a leg while jumping a gate and went completly ape shirt, he bolted, smashing fences from one end of the place to the other. biggest gun i had at the time was a .223 armalite and since i couldnt get close enough to him for a head shot he ended up soaking up more of those little .223 pills than i care to remember. never kept anything smaller than a .303 since then, plus slugs for the shotguns.
-
Many people think it's better to be able to lob off a bunch of rounds in a gunfight not thinking that aim is important. The problem with that is if you use your gun to defend your home do you really want to go shooting a bunch of round and taking the chance on hitting a family member? You are responsible for where your bullets end up.
-
actually... my point was with the 44 that overpenetration was not as bad as not enough penetration. I have killed more than a few animals with 44 mags and a 44 hole is better than a .357 that blows up under the skin. I have shot hogs with 250 swc at 1300 fps and they never exited. I have shot right through dogs (they flopped around for a bit but they died) and I have seen a 44 hollow point not exit a dog and seen it run away. No idea but it looked like it missed the spine and went through the gut. no blood trail to speak of.
I would like the round to penetrate after it went through a windshield or car door or wall. If it hits soft armor I want it to cause damage... I shot some lower threat level armor the other day (the cops throw em away after a year or so) and it went right through the front and flattened on the back panel. This was the 250 grain load.
for defense I have both silvertips and hydro shoks.
In reading marshall you will see the 44 being used and either having spectacular results of just so so.. he was interested in one shot stops.. some calibers did better but more of the 44 victims ended up in the morgue. some were able to function for a while but none ever returned fire. I also am just better with the caliber and gun than I am with others and I like the fact that it is accurate at range and will go through cars.
One of the swat guys at the range was hit in the back by one. he was left for dead but his armor stopped the round (240 jhp) he was paralyzed for about 6 months.. they didn't know if he would recover. He has recovered fully.
I like the 357.. I have a 340 PD that is light and effective. I have a 45 kimber that is accurate and reliable. If I had a choice in a gunfight I would take the 4" ruger custom every time tho.
He mentions categories of bad guys... I think this is accurate.. there are those (the vast majority) who will run away even seeing a gun.. any gun will do.
There are those who will shoot and need to be shot at to get them to lie down or run away... here.. it is good to get into a discussion of what is the best gee wiz gun to use..
Then there is the guy who is determined to kill you. I want to be able to shoot right through this guy with a big caliber.. I want to shoot him if he hides behind a car door... I want a caliber that makes it almost impossible for him to find cover and... I want to be able to hit him on the run or from 30 yards out.
I want a 44 mag.. I don't want a 44 with weak special rounds in it. Might as well have a 45.
on game animals.. I have seen em dropped with 22's and I have seen 7mm mags punch a little hole and do no damage.. I have seen a 45 ball from a 1861 army (44 but really .452) stop a deer dead.. that does not mean that the old cap and ball at 800 fps is a better caliber for deer than the 7 mm mag.
To me.. the 44 mag is just the most versitile of hanguns you can shoot at people with. it will kill with the best and do things none of the others will do.
lazs
-
which brings us to angus... he has a good point.. the 9mm has always been consiedered a marginal killer.. at virginia tech it killed scores with very few survivors.
The 22 is worse.. probly the worst next to the .25 and yet.. at a school... it killled 7 with very few survivors.
it is maybe a lot to do with shot placement but something else to do with having all the time in the world to shoot a cowering victim... pretty much an execution. we have seen weak calibers used for executions too many times and know they work.. the bullet to the back of the head... a .32 or 380 or worse.. nagant.. all do the job on helpless victims.
It is also true that in a gunfight.. people have been hit by these calibers multiple times and don't even know it till much later... after the fight is over.
I have not heard of anyone not knowing they were hit by a 44 mag to the torso.
lazs
-
Good points on all counts, lazs. You're certainly right in terms of versatility, i.e. shooting through barriers etc. In that context I agree with you. My position is due to my tactical philosophy.
If I am away from home, I cannot foresee a situation in which I might need to shoot a person unless they are close to me and threatening/approaching. Otherwise, I am simply gonna leave and call the police. I don't foresee ever shooting at anyone who is behind a barrier.
If I am at home, for self defense I am using either a 12 gauge pump with 00Buck loaded (in/close by the house), or a CAR15 (threats farther away in my 2 acre property). The argument about pistol caliber and penetration thus becomes moot :)
-
I agree.. and I do not feel unarmed with my kimber.. I just know it's limitations. I have seen er... "hostile" people and they almost always go for cover.. they are bad guys and know the score. "cover" may be a stuffed chair of couch or behind a solid core door... the 45 will be pretty much useless.. the 44 mag? surprise surprise!
people shoot from cars these days. 45 or 9mm is dismal for getting to em.. just like in the 30's when drive by's were invented... thats what the 38 super and .357 came out for.
There was a real issue with 45's back in the day.. that issue still exists. ammo has improved but.. not for penetration in the slow calibers.. a 44 special is not my idea of a good round unless you have to have a slow big caliber and all the 45's are gone.
9mm? make em work on soft targets and they won't work on anything else... including soft targets behind something not so soft. shoot some into a 2x4 on edge some time to prove my point. shoot 45's while you are at it.. shoot at solid core doors.
The 44 mag works... barely.. it is still a handgun but it is the most powerful one that is still of a useable size and can be controlled. it is simply the best compromise for most things....
In my opinion of course.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Tac
The article mentions its best to use the bigger caliber to 'stop' the guy from getting a 2nd shot at you and recomends using the .45 or a .357 since the 9mm needs more than one round usually to get the job done.
However he doesnt tackle the use of small, 9mm automatic weapons vs the semi .45.
I'd think that if I have a weapon that can squeeze off more than 10 rounds a second it would be more effective in chance to hit and damage inflicted than having a .45 that can fire 3 rounds a second.
What say you?
The 9mm is good for target practice and building fundamentals. There is NO comparison between the .45ACP and the 9mm.
Originally posted by lazs2
which brings us to angus... he has a good point.. the 9mm has always been consiedered a marginal killer.. at virginia tech it killed scores with very few survivors.
However, those were point blank lazs. Throw some distance in there with a gunfight. You're looking at more injuries than kills.
Also the caliber that hasn't been mentioned is the .38 +P. I'd put it in the Top 3 with the .357 & .45ACP.
-
ahh.. I think I talked of that in another thread. 22's kill people or animals in execution fashion quite well.. as does the 9mm. I doubt anyone was killed that was shot at through doors or behind cover or running at any distance.
executions are different... the nazis and the commies proved that by killing untold amounts of people execution style with very poor caliber handguns.
lazs
-
Well, if you want a gun for home defence, why do you want to shoot someone running away through a wall?
A .22 will actually fly nicely through some wood. NP.
Coming to think of it, maybe a small caliber is better for home defence? Small, fast, silent, and equally lethal if you hit in the right spot.
Or an UZI?
-
nope.. home invasions and anyone crazy enough to break into a home while Americans are home.. well.. they are either desperate, crazy or drugged or some combination of the three.
It is a fact that many people shot with 22's don't even know it till much later... I seen a kid that had walked over a mile to get help with a 22 bullet lodged an inch from his heart.. he was worried about getting in trouble.
Just because they duck behind the couch does not mean they are giving up on their plan either.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
anyone interested in firearms for self defense should read this guy and marshall..
Real gunfights with real guns are what you want to look at.
I agree with everything the guy says.. maybe because his favorites are my favorities... and for the same reasons.
For defensive handguns... I like my 44 mag (damn the overpenetration...I want the guy to go down)
I like my 360 PD in .357 cause.. the 357 always gets the job done and the PD is as much trouble as a cell phone to carry.. and.. it is a revolver.. you can shoot it while it is still in your jacket pocket. If it don't hit em.. it will set em on fire and make em deaf.
The 45... only lately have I gotten fond of this caliber and only since the excellent KImbers came out.. love that kimber..
lazs
Oh heck lazs, when I read him talk about the .357 and reloading, I knew it would give you wood.
I hope you didn't miss his real favorite is the .45, not the .357.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
nope.. home invasions and anyone crazy enough to break into a home while Americans are home.. well.. they are either desperate, crazy or drugged or some combination of the three.
It is a fact that many people shot with 22's don't even know it till much later... I seen a kid that had walked over a mile to get help with a 22 bullet lodged an inch from his heart.. he was worried about getting in trouble.
Just because they duck behind the couch does not mean they are giving up on their plan either.
lazs
Well he was one lucky SOB, for the one and only homicide we had in our country so far this year was a single .22 shot, which hit a main artery with lethal effect.
But you have short, long, slow and fast, hollow point or not. With .22 mag you have them supersonic and metal cased or hollowpoint if you like.
BTW, what handguns take those?
Anyway, they look really puny beneath a .45....
-
LOL lazs...at one time I decided to see how much penetration capability I could squeeze out of .44MAG.
I came up with a Hornady 240 grain FMJ bullet with a conical point, and a compressed load of IMR4227.
My test object was a fairly new 10 inch creosoted telephone pole. My 7 1/2 inch Super Blackhawk from 50 yards away easily drove those puppies all the way through the post, with a large splintered hole as the exit.
Point is, I do agree with you regarding the penetration aspect :)
-
Laz spoke of shooting through your pocket and how people survive .22 wounds which reminded me of something that happened to a friend of mine back in the late '70s. Doug was walking along a high chain link fence while someone on the other side was talking smack to him, obviously trying to distract him. When Doug resumed looking forward he had a .22 pointed in his face by the smack talkers buddy. The guy holding the gun told Doug to hand over his money, so Doug reached into his coat pocket like he was getting his money but instead emptied his .38 into the robbers chest shooting through his coat pocket killing the robber before he hit the ground. Unfortunately Doug took a shot to the head with the .22 being lodged in the back of his head. The round never hit his brain, but only traveled along the inside of his skull. The doctors left the bullet in, saying it would do more damage if they tried to remove it.
P.S. The robbers buddy ran off, never to be seen again and Doug didn't pass out until the police arrived.
-
Two words: Vertical Track.
Lethality is a complex equation however at my school what we teach for 1v1 engagements is to "track" your target with 4+ rounds from the belt buckle to the top of the head, up through what is called the "cone of vulnerability". It's been proven that the greater dispersion of impacts is far more effective of shutting down the human body than pairs of shots into the same area.
Pretty much every school is teaching it, and it gives you a lot more chance of a round hitting something important like the spine, lung, heart, medula etc...this balances out the need for precise shot placement, particularly in close quarters when time is not on your side and you are using an "unsighted" firing technique.
Hey Lazs, can you own the 4" Smith 500 down there? I'd love it if I could get my hands on one, but it's 1/4 inch too short to import into Canada.
-
Of all the handguns I've shot, I like the 1911 .45 the best. I qualified on it during my time in the Navy, and had some handgun experience from before going in. That 1911 is just pure sex to shoot, and you know when you connect with someone they will be hurt and know they are hurt.
-
What is "the point" in hollow points anyway? The bullet gets light because of the hole and if it hits something hard on the way in it may shatter. All the .44 JSPs (Fiocchi) I've fired have mushroomed very nicely without losing weight on the way (Ok, in sand or other soft material, not living tissue...).
Basically the bullet needs to change shape to release its energy in the tissue but if there are sharp cuts in the basic structure to cause a certain way of expansion it may well start losing parts and the energy will be divided in a bad way. So is the JHP just so "sexy" that it has established a good market share or is there some clear advantage over the older JSP?
***
"A .22 will actually fly nicely through some wood. NP."
Sure, but only if it is in a good angle. Shoot it at something at oblique angle and you have no idea where it flies...
-C+
-
fun subject.... angus.. AMT made a 22 magnum semi auto that worked like a 1911 several revolvers come in 22 mag. even a few derringers.
Lots of people have been hit by 22's and didn't even know it.
lazs
-
The "double tap" it is really really over rated according to studies.. if you get two torso hits it only marginally increases the chance of stopping the fight over one good torso hit.. (see marshall)
Not kill... stop.. as in... make the bad man stop mommy.
lazs
-
dago... I think that he did admit that the .357 was, and is, still king.
Penetration and reloading were brought up... I have done some odd things... I used to do the old hollow base wadcutter (a target bullet) upside down but in 38 spl cases and loaded to plus P levels for a tiny charter arms 38 I had.
Another load that was fun was I would drill out a cast 44 and put a 22 short blank upside down in the tip... talk about a neat hole in stuff.
For penetration I had a friend lathe turn some copper to 0.430 with a pointed end.. The bullet weighed about 90 grains.. my guess was that it was going about 2,000 fps out of my superblackhawk. I was not holding the gun..it was in a ransom rest but it was not that spectacular in the sound and recoil.. muzzle blast from a full case of blue dot was pretty nasty tho.
I like my 44.. it is a handy size to me.. It has controllable recoil to me and it is reliable and I know what it will do against almost anything at almost any range simply from shooting a couple hundred thousand rounds or so through it over the years at just about everything.
It is not fail proof.. it will fail to penetrate or even kill sometimes but... if a lesser round followed the same path... that round would fail too... and fail in a worse way.
I have witnessed a +P 38 spl hit a guy in the forehead from less than four feet away and bounce off and hit the ceiling and the guy who was hit beat the shooter almost to death before he couldn't see from the blood in his eyes. He had that scar till the day he died and it was a beaut..
That doesn't mean that I think a 38 is useless for head shooting. It just means.. well.. weird stuff happens.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Uh Laz,
If you shoot the gun in YOUR pocket it will set YOUR clothing on fire, not his. If he's deaf or not I don't care but you might want to rethink the benefits of being on fire yourself......
:p
At Laz's age the flames just help keep him moving fast! That I think applies to this forum too.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
Lots of people have been hit by 22's and didn't even know it.
lazs
Well I got hit once with a 22 doing something stupid and I definitely knew it. It felt like someone hit my leg with a 2x4...
-
Good reading -
I own a Glock 19 - 9mm. Its always been my intent that if I ever needed to use the pistol again another human, I would pepper the center of mass with at least four shots as quickly as possible. But given the choice I would do a head shot, preferrably via the frontal face.
Chances are it will never need to happen. In twenty years of carry I have only once even thought that I might be in trouble, and that turned out to be nothing.
-
I find it a bit odd that he says "I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations... and a .380 as well." while in the that very same sentence he notes that "These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table."
Based on that, they would seem to be effective enough if they're sending more people to the morgue than other calibers... or what is his point exactly?
-
I believe his point was that using a 9mm or 380 was ineffective to the point that it took mulitple rounds to stop the BG. While you are trying to hit the BG with multiple shots he is shooting back at you. Why waste time when you can stop the BG with one shot of a 44. You knock him down and he aint shooting back...
-
Based on that, they would seem to be effective enough if they're sending more people to the morgue than other calibers... or what is his point exactly?
These are the most common rounds used by criminals to kill other criminals, which as he points out makes up most of his business. Criminals like smaller, easier to conceal and lower recoil weapons. They are, therefore, the most common rounds used to kill based on usage. If all criminals refused to use firearms in crime, then baseball bats would likely be the most common weapon used to send people to the morgue. That wouldn't make a baseball bat more effective than a .45 APC, however, just more common.
In his experience, however, the smaller rounds do not kill as quickly or easily as larger rounds from his examinations of cases where those rounds are used.
Charon
-
Originally posted by Dux
I find it a bit odd that he says "I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations... and a .380 as well." while in the that very same sentence he notes that "These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table."
Based on that, they would seem to be effective enough if they're sending more people to the morgue than other calibers... or what is his point exactly?
Read carefully, as he clarifies the point several times. His point is that during a fair number of autopsies he has found that both the 380 and the 9MM FAILED TO PENETRATE and remain intact in several instances. Both rounds were seen to have either hit bone and deflect, or hit bone and break up, rather than penetrate and wreck major organs. Yes, after enough 9MM or 380 bullets are put in the subjects, they do eventually die. And the reason he sees that many dead people with 9MM and 380 in them is those are by far the most common rounds used by criminals.
This is the same complaint that the FBI had after the "Miami Shootout". In that particular case, it was not true, as the 9MM Silvertip in question, fired by SA Jerry Dove, did actually penetrate about 9-12 inches, and did do fatal damage. It's just that the two perps were adrenaline junkies and late for their own funerals. Unfortunately late enough that one of them killed Dove and Grogan before he died.
In that case, much like the "North Hollywood Shootout" the good guys were WAY outgunned. Much like it does not pay to bring a knife to a gun fight, it does not pay to bring a hand gun to a rifle/shotgun fight. In neither case did the good guys have rifles, few had shotguns, and none had body armor capable of defeating rifles.
The "Miami Shootout" is what brought on the 40 Short & Weak. The FBI had intended to adopt the 10MM, but recoil was a problem, at least a perceived problem, as was size. So Smith and Wesson shortened the 10MM to about the length as 9MM and the 40 Short & Weak was born.
-
Gotcha, he's talking about the instant kill rather than the slow kill. Thanks.
-
I remember one of my buddies got robbed one night by 2 gangsters. They were beating him on the head with a metal bar but he got to his duty piece, a .357 loaded with 125 grn JHPs. He put the barrel up against one BGs chest and pulled the trigger.
The bullet actually shot out 1/2 the BGs heart. I was one of the first on the scene and there was a little funnel of heart chunks on the ground leading away from the BGs back. Im talking dead before he even hit the ground.
For killing bad guys who are intent on killing you first there is no substitute for the .357 magnum loaded with 125 grn JHPs. Its in a class of its own.
E. Marshall is good people. No BS to him. I was in his forum for years once. Imagine all the shootings a big city Homicide dick gets to see in his career. Evan was a Detroit Homocide dick.
-
Over the years on different blogs threads like this spring up. In general everything from the .22 to .40 is pooh poohed and the .357 to .45 lionised. Everyone has a favorite load and stories of the destructive power including photos in some cases. But just like cars, women and alcohol, everyone is an expert.
So based on the strange stories and personal biases from you gents. My Glock 27 in .40S&W I keep next to the bed loaded with Federal Premium 165gr JHP. When I bet my families life on it at 3 in the morning from 7-12yd in the perps mid section with as many rounds as I can hit him. Have I just commited suicide and gotten my family killed, or will this round kill the perp?
The way some of you talk with bias about this round or that is surreal when so many of us out here are betting the farm on the rounds being cavalierly dismissed by the self appointed experts on this blog.
So all of you EXPERTS, will the .40 short&weak kill a human at 12yds? My wife would like to know......................... ....
-
I'm no expert. I do not claim to be. I shoot, I carried as a LEO, I carry as a civilian, and I sometimes even shoot in a friendly match.
Is 40 short&weak better than 9MM? Yes, it is. Is it as good as .357 Magnum, 10MM, 44 Special, or 45 ACP? I do not think so.
Again, NO GUN, and NO CALIBER, is a magic panacea. Some ARE better than others.
Are you going to be okay with a 40 short&weak as a personal defense weapon? Probably.
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
......... Mussel loaders, bolt action, automatics, breach loaders...........
Mussel loaders are just that. .
I don't think I'd fear being shot with a mollusk. They are quite delicious though.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Musselfood.JPG/800px-Musselfood.JPG)
Maybe you meant MUZZLE[/i]?:D
-
:lol Bone
or maybe he meant muscles...
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t92/Airscrew/090919popeye_155.jpg)
-
no round is foolproof but... all else being equal... if they all take the same path and hit the same things... you are gonna want the bigger rounds or the .357
that is not to say that other rounds don't work or don't work better even when they have a superior, by intent or luck, path.. it is just that you have an advantage with the heavier calibers.
As for hollow points? I like em cause they get the center of mass back on the bullet. they can be slightly more accurate.
An interesting round is the one that looks like hardball FMJ but has a plastic ball over the massive hollow point. The idea being that it will feed in semi autos like hardball and the hollow point will not fill up with the bad guys clothes..
I can imagine that this would be devestating in a 44 mag. the 44 has enough power to push a quarter sized deformed slug through tissue and bone.
lazs
-
as a brit i have no clue about firearms.
one thing i do notice is that hardly anyone mentions the .50 pistols.
Is the Desert Eagle, and similar weapons, a waste of time? Popular film would have us believe a .50 pistol will shoot through brick walls and still hurt people.
are these guns not all that in reality?
-
they are huge and bulky so why bother? if you need that kind of power there are more powerful handguns.. the 460 and 480 and 454 all have more power and are less bulky in most cases. the 50 is pretty much a toy and a movie prop.
lazs
-
right you are lazs, does make a loud noise tho.
-
The Desert Eagle is chambered in 50AE, it isn't really that hot a round. And no, it won't go through brick walls and take people out.
The 500 and 475 Linebaugh are both more powerful. They can be had in Maximum versions that are even more powerful.
-
That was a LONG but interesting read.
I love how the 9mm weenies went after him towards the end. Every subject has to have it's fanatics.
We have Terror here for ours.
-
I loaded my 45-70 Marlin with 58gr N133 powder and 350gr Hornady Flat nose bullet.
One shot on a running elk at 50meters. She was dead before hitting the ground. The shot hit her on the right front section going through front leg and entering thorax. Blew heart out. The shot was found later fully mushroomed inside thorax.
There was no need for additional shots.
Usually .308 is used here for elk hunting and even after a succesfull hit the animal may run quite a distance after being hit because the bullet is so small->bleeding is quite minimal. And if you do not hit vital organs the animal can go on for several days.
With 45-70 if you hit you will at least make so big hole that the animal bleeds to death. :)
-
Originally posted by Angus
Well, if you want a gun for home defence, why do you want to shoot someone running away through a wall?
A .22 will actually fly nicely through some wood. NP.
Coming to think of it, maybe a small caliber is better for home defence? Small, fast, silent, and equally lethal if you hit in the right spot.
Or an UZI?
Overall small calibers are about as useful as tits on a bull. Im talking "under .38" here. Yes, everyone has heard the stories of the one .22 bullet causing catastrophic death however Ive never seen it. And if you really want to see "truly useless" then load them with ball ammo.
Ive seen people killed by .22s and .25s but each and every-time they had enough juice left in them to kill a busload of enemies before themselves succumbing, whether they did or didn't. The idea is to stop them before they stop you! "Killing" them is somthing that happens later.
And any .38/9mm or larger caliber will do it efficiently providing you use quality ammo, put the bullets in heart/lung, and keep shooting until hes down. Forget this "zipper" method of placing bullets. For one thing the BG isn't going to be posing for you while you expertly "zip him up", and secondly why would you waste bullets with gut shooting? Especially when the guy is shooting back and might not let you finish the "zip" you started.
Many of you aren't LEOs or soldiers but you are hunters and have seen yourselves the benefits of using efficient calibers, well constructed bullets, and good shot placement. Its no different in self defense. Meat is meat!
Bgs are getting a lot more technically proficient nowadays. Most of all the street gangster types I see most often. Its the internet yaknow. Compared to when I first started, when they almost always had useless calibers and ammo, nowadays they far more often have efficient weapons and premium ammo loaded in them.
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The Desert Eagle is chambered in 50AE, it isn't really that hot a round. And no, it won't go through brick walls and take people out.
The 500 and 475 Linebaugh are both more powerful. They can be had in Maximum versions that are even more powerful.
speaking of Maximum, whatever happened to the .357 Maximum, I recall Ruger had a Blackhawk chambered for it and I think Winchester had a Model 94 for it. I just dont hear about them, did they just die of neglect?
-
Originally posted by Airscrew
speaking of Maximum, whatever happened to the .357 Maximum, I recall Ruger had a Blackhawk chambered for it and I think Winchester had a Model 94 for it. I just dont hear about them, did they just die of neglect?
To make a 475 or 500 Linebaugh Maximum you need a 357 Maximum Ruger revolver. Ruger ceased production of the Maximum because of the flame cutting of the frame. A few came close to failing as the top strap was torched by the flame from the powder.