Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Heater on November 10, 2007, 01:00:20 PM
-
Ok Gun gods....
what 's the best way to go here, as I said price is not realy an issue
so I am open to suggestions
Cheers
-
HK USP Compact.
-
In .40 Smith? Ya got alotta choices, fer sure.
Especially, if price is not an issue. GL and Good Hunting!
(P.S. It doesn't hurt to go to a range that rents' pistols, and try a few out before you buy.)
-
Is this a professional purchase? One to use in your line of work?
Also, we need a bit more info. Is this mainly a concealed carry piece? Does overall size matter more than accuracy?
A lot depends on how it will be used. The long barrels are better for accuracy, the shorts for concealability for example.
-
You know me.... Gotta put Glock on the table...
Here are the Glock .40S&W models: (prices depends alot on locality..)
Glock Model 22 - Standard size ~ $525
Glock Model 23 - Compact size ~ $475
Glock Model 27 - SubCompact size ~ $425
Glock Model 35 - 5" Tactical size ~ $600
Glock Model Reference (http://www.glock.com/english/pistols_models.htm)
Excellent reliability, rugged, accurate. But according to several people on this board they are "ugly". I think they are quite attrctive firearms.
Terror
Ps. And the suggestion to visit a range that rent pistols is an EXCELLENT suggestion!!
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
HK USP Compact.
what he said
-
Like Toad said, usage determines what would be the best model and brand. What do you intend to do with it?
-
If size isnt an option, Im partial to the HK USP .40, but if frame size matters do like Storch and Karaya said and get the compact.
-
If price isn't an issue, send me ten grand and I'll mail you a .40 :aok
Ah, seriously, I'd look into an HK USP, Sig-Sauer or Springfield. I'm very confident and comfortable with all of those companies and their products.
-
The reason for the Compact USP Heater is simple. It is reliable, accurate out of the box. But, it has a longer barrel than most "compacts" and is still smaller the full size pistols. It is the "happy medium" and not bulky to carry either.
-
Originally posted by Terror
You know me.... Gotta put Glock on the table...
Here are the Glock .40S&W models: (prices depends alot on locality..)
Glock Model 22 - Standard size ~ $525
Glock Model 23 - Compact size ~ $475
Glock Model 27 - SubCompact size ~ $425
Glock Model 35 - 5" Tactical size ~ $600
Glock Model Reference (http://www.glock.com/english/pistols_models.htm)
Excellent reliability, rugged, accurate. But according to several people on this board they are "ugly". I think they are quite attrctive firearms.
Terror
Ps. And the suggestion to visit a range that rent pistols is an EXCELLENT suggestion!!
This is the best advice, depending on the size you want. Glocks don't malfunction with mediocre care or better.
Of course, I prefer an HK, but there is some sentiment in that. I have the USP tactical and compact in 45.....which is a superior round.
-
Springfield XD.
-
(http://stiguns.com/guns/Tactical4/images/Tactical4Web_800w.jpg)
If price is not a problem.. Took a tour of their shop a month ago and quality and craftsmanship is A+..
-
I strongly recommend you look at the Sig line of .40s.
SigArms (http://www.sigsauer.com/Default.aspx)
-
Originally posted by Halo
Springfield XD.
:aok
If you want a 1911 Kimber has some in .40. ParaOrdinance also might be worth looking at along with what others have posted.
-
...It might be safe to say that just about everyone making semi-auto handguns' has built one in .40 S&W, It's become that popular of a round. You can even get a berreta M9 setup in .40 cal. GL, and Good hunting.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
.. You can even get a berreta M9 setup in .40 cal
why would you want to?
-
HK USP
If I had the money, I'd own one.
-
Originally posted by storch
why would you want to?
to clear the stovepipes? :confused:
-
Originally posted by storch
why would you want to?
It was an off-hand example. If I started to list all the pistols' that are offered in .40 Smith I wouldn't have the patience to finish the list. I'm NOT a Beretta Fanboi, but I'm sure there are a couple on this BBS somewhere.
-
I like beretta shotguns and I think they are excellent even though I don't own a single example. their pistols are so so at best, even worse are the taurus automatics. for me when it comes to pistols the germans and swiss are the way to go with the exemption being anything originating from the fertile mind of John Moses Browning.
-
Originally posted by Halo
Springfield XD.
Originally posted by Slash27
:aok
If you want a 1911 Kimber has some in .40. ParaOrdinance also might be worth looking at along with what others have posted.
:aok :aok
The springfield XD line has full size mid size and compacts in 40,9mm,and 45acp among other less common calibers.
-
Originally posted by storch
why would you want to?
I have one because I must be proficient with the military 9mm M9 at work. I don't want to actually OWN a 9mm, so I got the same gun but in .40.
It's reliable, very accurate, and the weight/size of the weapon makes it very comfortable to shoot. I've gone through a couple hundred rounds in an afternoon with very little wrist fatigue, where with my Dad's S&W .40 issued by the CHP, my wrist hurt after about 30 rounds.
Yea it's big and relatively heavy, but it's comfy to shoot, reliable (in my experience, since mine has never failed), accurate, and easy to maintain. It is not the right gun for concealed carry, but the original question did not mention concealed carry.
-
Originally posted by Heater
Ok Gun gods....
what 's the best way to go here, as I said price is not realy an issue
so I am open to suggestions
Cheers
You don't mention a purpose... Why do you want this gun?
If it's for putting into the nightstand for home defense, get whatever fits your hand and has a decent magazine capacity since you're not going to be hauling it around all the time. Glowing tritium sights can help aim the thing in the dark too. If it's for concealed carry, get something small (duh) with rounded off corners. Buy a gun magazine and you'll see plenty of ads for little autos with no sharp edges or corners to snag on clothing. If it's for carrying around in the field, get a gun with good capacity that is accurate, heavy enough to not be fatiguing to shoot multiple times, and can survive being dropped in the mud.
My beretta serves 3 purposes - It lets me keep in practice using the same size/shape/weight gun as the one I have to qualify with at work. It serves as a home defense weapon. I carry it occasionally when hiking/shooting out in the woods. I do NOT carry it concealed. So it fits my purpose and is I think the "best" for what I need. It's also stainless, because my sweat is very acidic and everything I touch rusts almost instantly so non-stainless steel guns (blued or whatever, I rust them all) are not a good idea for me.
So... What's your requirement? If you just want to look like a badass, get the biggest one you can find and strap it into a black ballistic nylon tactical holster. The desert eagle guns are the size of a small car, so that might be what you need to go with your black ninja SWAT jammies :)
-
One of my colleague is a big fan of CZ pistols.
If you don't mind a commie gun ;) , CZ makes fine DA/SA pistols. They are relatively cheap here in Europe but they seem to be pricey in the States.
Here is the review of the
CZ 75 compact .40 S&W (http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/cz75_091305/)
-
Cant believe not one person has suggested a good quality hand made firearm. When i first started in pistol shooting i had a sig 226. For a year i shot the piss out of that gun. They are nice and work but dont do anything better than a glock for more money.
I dont think that many of you have been to a match and swapped guns with real shooters. Before i purchased my STI i shot almost everything under the sun.
If i were to line up all the these suggestions and gave you 50 rounds on each gun 9 out of 10 would go sti. I cant explain the feel and craftsmanship that they can bring to the table.
Price is the largest barrier between a good gun and a great gun. If this is not a issue than take a look at some world class small shop firearm producers in America. Especially if you love to shoot and shoot often.
-
While I do love a Kimber or other fine custom gun, I can't say I'd buy a Kimber in 40 Short & Weak. It'd be somewhat akin to buying a hand built custom Yugo. It'd still be a Yugo, even if it were custom built.
-
All,
Sorry for the slow response, was out of town for a few days,
Thanks for the info, as for what the use is,
Well it will be all around self defense, general shooting at the range, and of course the Wife will need to be able to handle it also (may even get her own) ...
And for the Dutch that are wondering about it yes I do have permits already and have checked in to the new permits etc... So it's not an issue.
Cheers
-
I am not a fan of the 40 and so don't know a thing about it. I would not be able to recommend anything in 40 with a clear conscience.
lazs
-
I thought about 40s too and fired several nice ones along with other calibers. When I found the Springfield XD .45 ACP in 4-inch barrel, the quest ended. It's just about my favorite gun.
To me, having a .45 ACP means no second thoughts wondering if I have enough caliber or too much caliber. It's just right for home defense, plinking, and target shooting.
An added Glock 21 laser/light greatly enhances the Springfield XD .45 ACP's all-around effectiveness, particularly in low light and home defense.
If I hunted with a handgun, I'd probably go with a bigger caliber revolver. Since I don't hunt, the Springfield XD is just right.
-
I never thought much about the .40 until I received a .40 S&W M&P pistol as a gift. I have not shot it as yet but I did research the cartridge a bit.
I'm a .45 ACP fan and I love my Taurus 1911 but I no longer call the .40 a "short & weak" after reading the history. It got that moniker when it was basically downsized from the 10mm.
Do a little reading; it's a reasonably powerful handgun cartridge that is certainly competitive at making people stop what they are doing when you choose to stop them.
WIKI: The .40 S&W cartridge has become a huge success in the United States because, while possessing nearly identical accuracy[5], drift and drop, it adds 50% more energy over the 9 mm Parabellum with a more manageable recoil than the 10 mm Auto cartridge. In the rest of the world it has become a popular combat pistol shooting sports cartridge.[citation needed]
.40 S&W Load TablesThe energy of the .40 S&W exceeds all standard-pressure and +P 9 mm Para loadings and many standard-pressure .45 ACP rounds, generating between 450 and 600 foot-pounds of energy, depending on bullet weight, with mid to high 500's typical. Both the .40 S&W and the 9 mm Parabellum operate at a 35,000 psi SAAMI maximum, compared to a 21,000 psi maximum for .45 ACP[6]. Some small ammunition manufacturers offer .40 S&W ammunition consistently developing energy well above 500 ft·lbf in all their .40 S&W ammo as off-the-shelf items.[7]. While SAAMI has not established a +P standard for the .40 S&W, there are companies marketing ammunition claimed to be +P, but they do not provide pressure data to support +P labeling.
The .40 S&W is considered by some[citation needed] the best cartridge for law enforcement use available today, combining superior stopping power when using expanding ammunition and manageable recoil in a package that remains compact, even when using a double-stack magazine. The .40 S&W has an overwhelming share of the U.S. law enforcement market as a result.[citation needed]
-
I would say try as many pistols as you can and get the one that you like best. Most ranges have rental guns, although often not in the best state of repair. Also take your buds to the range and try their stuff.
If it's for general property defense and wife usage you should consider a double action revolver in my opinion. 357 magnum with a 4 or 6 inch barrel, she can start out practicing with .38 special cartridges.
-
I fired a couple .40 semiautos at the local range and enjoyed the cartridge. Funny how some cartridges just feel right, e.g., the .40 always felt good but for some reason I did not enjoy firing the .357 sig.
However, when it came to choosing the optimum for my needs, the .45 ACP seemed even more comfortable and effective. If I had to carry concealed, a .40 Springfield XD would be a candidate, but I'd still try the .45 ACP first.
I'm only a recreational shooter, so pay particular heed to the more experienced advice from law enforcement and military veterans.
-
toad.. the wiki energy tables are wrong.. there are no loads in .40 that have 600 lbs of energy that I know of. they all come in at around 300
http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/cartridge_table.html
Energy = 1/2 (grains) x (velocity [ft/sec]) x C ft.lbs.
-6
where C = conversion factor = 4.44 x 10 (approximate).
lazs
-
I've fired off a few rounds and I sure as hell would not want to get shot with a .40 under any circumstances. As a general rule of thumb, screw the math stats. Go for the head shot.
-
OK, I'll buy that; Wiki is what it is and it isn't much.
I did do a comparo on the Federal and Winchester Ammunition Ballistics sites. Now, I realize we're not getting into handloads here but for "off the shelf" performance, the .40 and the .45 are in the same realm for energy and better than the 9mm.
I compared HydraShoks, .40 in 165 and 180, .45 in 230 and 9mm in 124 (115 in Win, they have now 124's) and 147. There's a bunch of writing that the 9mm/147 is a crap combo that has feed and other problems but I tossed it in as the heavy bullet example.
Here's the list, with the Federal number first, Winchester second.
Muzzle energies (and face it, most of these when used as intended won't be that far from the muzzle):
.45/230 = F 404 * W 396
.40/180 = F 400 * W 408
.40/165 = F 352 * W 468
9mm/147 = F 326 * W 320
9mm/124 = F 345 * W 115 gr = 383
Again, it's not handloads but it's clear that the .40 and .45 are pretty close in energy in the commercially available stuff that most people probably use. Just about all CCH instructors I have discussed this with says that for legal reasons you're better off using commercial ammunition in case it ever goes to trial for some reason.
I'm not saying muzzle energy is the be all - end all either. But it's something to use when considering penetration, along with bullet type, brand within bullet type, caliber, etc., etc., etc..
I'm still a .45 afficianado but I no longer view the .40 as "short & weak", the nickname it got when they downsized the 10mm. It's decent and likely better than a 9mm.
I own them all, btw, so I really don't have a dog in the fight. I just prefer the look, feel and whoomp of the .45 in a 1911.
-
According to the Muzzle Energy Calculator (http://www.on-targetrange.com/energy.shtml), The "Winchester 9mm 127gr +p+ Ranger SXT" ammo delivers about 441ft/lb energy. Looks like it sits right in the middle of the .40/.45 energy tables.
Not bad for a 9mm round.
127gr
1250fps
.355 cross section (9.017mm)
Terror
-
I didn't get into the +P or +P+ rounds.
That particular 9mm round is mentioned in the discussion article as very close to the .357/125 round.
I do think it's always a case of what an individual finds comfortable/suitable.
No matter what you pick, you have to be comfortable with shooting it and you have to practice enough to shoot it well enough to be effective when the time comes.
A .45 does you no good at all if you are uncomfortable with the recoil and flinch so much you just plain miss. In that case, you're better off with a .22 or a baseball bat.
Find the biggest/hottest concealable that you can shoot accurately and comfortably and get good with it. That's my advice. :)
-
well... hydrashoks are hot as are the rangers. terror is practicing for war.. multiple opponents.. I believe that in war they only allow ball ammo.
now.. you take the 44 mag and the 357 mag and you are getting into the 1100 and 700 lbs of energy range.
you take them light bullets the ranger and the .40 in 165 and such.. they are hollow points and they may or may not expand in people.. but... they will not penetrate cover.
You give up penetration in the hope that you will get expansion.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Terror
According to the Muzzle Energy Calculator (http://www.on-targetrange.com/energy.shtml), The "Winchester 9mm 127gr +p+ Ranger SXT" ammo delivers about 441ft/lb energy. Looks like it sits right in the middle of the .40/.45 energy tables.
Not bad for a 9mm round.
127gr
1250fps
.355 cross section (9.017mm)
Terror
Black Talon 2nd's are old school. The 9mm is a crappy round to have your life depending on it. Oh one other thing. You'll wear your Glock out something fierce with those rounds.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
they are hollow points and they may or may not expand in people.. but... they will not penetrate cover.
You give up penetration in the hope that you will get expansion.
lazs
After reading that article and reviewing once again all the variables he mentions, I'm considering loading a mix of ball and heavy hollow.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Black Talon 2nd's are old school. The 9mm is a crappy round to have your life depending on it. Oh one other thing. You'll wear your Glock out something fierce with those rounds.
Actually not true. According to Glock, the 9mm Glock line was designed with high pressure rounds in mind for use with Special Forces. So these rounds are just perfect in the Glock 17, 19, or 26.
T
-
This is what I could find on 9mm pressure ratings...
9mm = 35,000psi
9mm (+P) = 38,500psi
9mm (+P+) = 40,000psi
9mm NATO = 42,000psi
Glock rates their 9mm pistol line to 43,500psi.
T.
-
Originally posted by Terror
Actually not true. According to Glock, the 9mm Glock line was designed with high pressure rounds in mind for use with Special Forces. So these rounds are just perfect in the Glock 17, 19, or 26.
T
Actually I know an armorer for Glock. They aren't designed for repeated use with +p+ ammo loads. I'd buy a new barrel if I were you.
I know my guns, including Glocks.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Actually I know an armorer for Glock. They aren't designed for repeated use with +p+ ammo loads. I'd buy a new barrel if I were you.
I know my guns, including Glocks.
According to my Glock Armorer, Glocks were designed for 9mm NATO pressures. They are more than capable of handling 9mm +P+ Ammunition. Actually, he was the one who recommended the ammo to me.
T
-
Originally posted by Halo
I fired a couple .40 semiautos at the local range and enjoyed the cartridge. Funny how some cartridges just feel right, e.g., the .40 always felt good but for some reason I did not enjoy firing the .357 sig.
However, when it came to choosing the optimum for my needs, the .45 ACP seemed even more comfortable and effective. If I had to carry concealed, a .40 Springfield XD would be a candidate, but I'd still try the .45 ACP first.
I'm only a recreational shooter, so pay particular heed to the more experienced advice from law enforcement and military veterans.
Never ask a cop! lol
The majority of police officers only understand what they need to qualify. Swat guys on the other hand are shooters and would be the people to ask. My experience with cops are that their more into the power trip than firearms.
For a long time i was a member of a range that was the sheriff practice range. They would come in and shoot two boxes of ammo and take off. Good for me because they never ever picked up brass.
These are the guys to ask...
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?act=idx
-
Originally posted by Terror
According to my Glock Armorer, Glocks were designed for 9mm NATO pressures. They are more than capable of handling 9mm +P+ Ammunition. Actually, he was the one who recommended the ammo to me.
T
Terror, again, the 9mm round is a worthless round. Why do you think the US is attempting to revert back to the .45acp? Actually, your Glock is NOT rated for +P+ ammo. But it's your gun, I'd look into a new barrel and spring.
Also, you should talk to the doctors, morticians and trauma surgeons in your area. They'll "thank you" for using the SXT. The SXT is a worse round than the Black Talon was.
My good friend is retired out of the Michigan State Police Crime Lab, his specialty? Ballistics. Another good buddy is a Glock armorer, he only recommends +P+ as a nightstand load, not routine practice (for the reasons above).
You are hung up on a "warfare style" in a "civilian world". I and other's seem to be missing something here. Like lazs and I say often, the 9mm is DEPENDANT on the round to mushroom. A lot of times, it doesn't.
Keep in mind, I'm not bashing the Glock. I'm bashing the 9mm. Like I said in a different thread, I reverted back to a .38 JHP +p over the .40+p round because of my hatred of Beretta's stovepiping.
I have shot the Glock 23C many times in .40. It is a fine instrument, but I lose ANY handgun in the 9mm.
-
Originally posted by FX1
Never ask a cop! lol
The majority of police officers only understand what they need to qualify. Swat guys on the other hand are shooters and would be the people to ask. My experience with cops are that their more into the power trip than firearms.
For a long time i was a member of a range that was the sheriff practice range. They would come in and shoot two boxes of ammo and take off. Good for me because they never ever picked up brass.
These are the guys to ask...
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?act=idx
My best friend growing up is SWAT for a local PD and now works in co-op for the DEA.
He's a good shot.
OTOH, I've often seen MANY cops shooting at the range. I feel safer armed because they couldn't hit a bull in the arse with a shovel. I had one cop come in to the range with an attitude. He laughed when he saw me stand back and rip off 13 from the USP. He said "You shoot with both eyes open?!!! You'd never be a cop shooting like that!"
I saw his piss poor groupings. I put the target out to 15 yards and really bruised his ego with all 13 center mass. I set the gun down and said "It's cops like yourself that give 90% of them a bad name. You shoot your mouth off because you have a badge and gun and you respect neither." He didn't reply.
-
Glock states that their 9mm pistol line is designed for continuous use with 9mm NATO ammunition. 9mm +P+ does not exceed 9mm NATO pressure standards.
Yes, since it is a higher velocity (hotter) round, I may only get 350,000 rounds through my Glock instead of 400,000. Oh well, my loss.
Tell you what, I will ask this specific question at my upcoming Glock Armorer's Certification training. I will let you know what the Instructor comes back with.
T
PS. Head out to glocktalk.com and do a search for +P+ ammo, or "pressure" and read through some of the threads....
-
no way you're gonna get 350,000 rounds though a barrel. Good luck though.
-
Regarding the .357 Sig (to side-step for a moment):
Halo, did it seem to be more of a "snap" than the typical "buck" when you fired it? I've shot a .40 Smith before and didn't object to the recoil at all. But I've been eyeballing a Sig P226 in .357 as my first auto pistol. The one comment a lot of people make about it was the recoil was very abrupt. Almost to the point of being uncomfortable and nowhere near the "buck" or "push" they get from other auto calibers.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
-
I will shoot any box ammo out of my glock. If their were problems with a glock shooting +P+ it would be posted and well documented.
But
Shooting lead bullets out of a factory barrel is not wise.
-
Originally posted by flakbait
Regarding the .357 Sig (to side-step for a moment):
Halo, did it seem to be more of a "snap" than the typical "buck" when you fired it? I've shot a .40 Smith before and didn't object to the recoil at all. But I've been eyeballing a Sig P226 in .357 as my first auto pistol. The one comment a lot of people make about it was the recoil was very abrupt. Almost to the point of being uncomfortable and nowhere near the "buck" or "push" they get from other auto calibers.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Glock 31 .357 sig
+
.40 after market barrel $110
They use the same mags so you can have both. The .357 is $ to shoot and has less variety in loads.
-
One more before i go to bed.
If you shot 350,000 rounds and shooting a glock we need to have a talk...
If you have that amount of time on your hands and money we need to get ya a new ride.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
no way you're gonna get 350,000 rounds though a barrel. Good luck though.
My point is not that I can get 350,000 rounds through a Glock, (which has been demonstrated, BTW), but that shooting +P+ ammo will not shorten the life of a Glock for an average shooter.
T
-
I have put maybe 75,000 rounds through one ruger 44 super blackhawk in 30 years.. parts started to work harden but the barrel is good.
The 40 is fine. there are better I think.. the 9mm is iffy to me. If everyone and everything worked out as planned... it might do really well with some rounds... maybe not tho.. no data is in on the "ranger" rounds... except.. if the guy gets to cover or wears even a t shirt level one vest... it will fail.
It is marginal but I would take it if there was nothing else... I have carried makarovs and .32's ppk's and even some tiny berreta 22's and not felt unarmed but... with them... just as with the 9mm... I would feel very limited.
lazs
-
think head shot lazs....think head shot. All else is subject to debate.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I have put maybe 75,000 rounds through one ruger 44 super blackhawk in 30 years.. parts started to work harden but the barrel is good.
The 40 is fine. there are better I think.. the 9mm is iffy to me. If everyone and everything worked out as planned... it might do really well with some rounds... maybe not tho.. no data is in on the "ranger" rounds... except.. if the guy gets to cover or wears even a t shirt level one vest... it will fail.
It is marginal but I would take it if there was nothing else... I have carried makarovs and .32's ppk's and even some tiny berreta 22's and not felt unarmed but... with them... just as with the 9mm... I would feel very limited.
lazs
I would ask you this, Lasz. Would'nt a Semi-auto be more likely to wear out sooner than a revolver, The way the parts' move and all? I would think that bore wear would be kinda universal, though.
-
I have no idea. I know that guns are very durable. that most people will never wear one out except thorough abuse. I do know that some semiautos fail at what I consider a very short span of say... 10,000 rounds.. there was some such problem with the berretas.
With semi autos... a common problem is the magazines failing and the extractor or ejector or springs.. on a semi auto this is catastrophic.. failures on revolvers can often be overcome.. they would be.. bolt stop/bolt stop spring say... Had the transfer bar shatter on my ruger at about 60,000 rounds.. and.. the screw holding the ejector rod shattered and sheared off.. neither would have made it inoperable... A piece of beer can jammed in the frame transfered the hammer blow to the firing pin.. removing the cylinder or just poking out the spent rounds with a stick would have worked for the ejector rod..
Not the case with the semi auto tho.. broken extractor would mean a jam every time.. you would have to clear it with a pocket knife or something.
Never seen a frame crack from use on a revolver but have seen slides and frames crack on semi autos. Mostly they were 50 years old tho... blocks just haven't been around that long but.. they do lose extractors.
lazs
-
Never seen a frame crack from use on a revolver but have seen slides and frames crack on semi autos. Mostly they were 50 years old tho... blocks just haven't been around that long but.. they do lose extractors.
When I bought my P345, The gunsmith at the shop said that Glocks' have some kinda problem with the trigger group, after a while-but that they were easy to replace.
You broke a transfer bar on a Redhawk, right? I was thinking of buying a Super Redhawk (.45LC/.454 Casull) for my next gun, and was wondering if they might do that too...
-
(quote) Regarding the .357 Sig (to side-step for a moment):
Halo, did it seem to be more of a "snap" than the typical "buck" when you fired it? I've shot a .40 Smith before and didn't object to the recoil at all. But I've been eyeballing a Sig P226 in .357 as my first auto pistol. The one comment a lot of people make about it was the recoil was very abrupt. Almost to the point of being uncomfortable and nowhere near the "buck" or "push" they get from other auto calibers. (unquote)
Snap vs. buck is a good way to describe the .357 Sig and .40 recoil, at least in my limited experience with them. The .40 and .45 ACP to me feel solid and predictable. The .357 feels snappish or snippish with more muzzle bucking; I didn't like firing the .357 Sig at all. I am more comfortable and accurate with the .40 and .45.
As others have said, I hope you can rent a couple guns in the calibers you're considering before buying any. Nothing like hands-on to find what does the best for your requirements.
-
Originally posted by Terror
My point is not that I can get 350,000 rounds through a Glock, (which has been demonstrated, BTW), but that shooting +P+ ammo will not shorten the life of a Glock for an average shooter.
T
But it will, by design of the ammo. "Pressures" have nothing to do with this.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
But it will, by design of the ammo. "Pressures" have nothing to do with this.
So if pressures have nothing to do with it, then would you kindly explain how a "+p+" ammo will significantly reduce the life of a given firearm?
T.
-
Originally posted by Terror
So if pressures have nothing to do with it, then would you kindly explain how a "+p+" ammo will significantly reduce the life of a given firearm?
T.
Again. BARREL wear.
-
Thanks for the suggestion, FX1, but you can do the same switch with a Sig in .40 S&W. The .40 Smith I fired was a Glock, and had a trigger pull akin to a staple-gun. I wasn't crazy about the grip angle, either. I know the Tupperware Warriors Club loves the Glock, its simply one I'm not partial to. To boot, several folks I trust have nothing but praise for the Sig, with the always-added "Provided you can afford it!" LOL
Thanks for the comments, Halo. Next time I find myself at a range that offers rentals (local range doesn't rent... yet) I'll give it a whang and see what I think. At the least, I'll end up with a P226 in .40 Short & Weak and maybe .357 Sig barrel for it.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Again. BARREL wear.
And what exactly is the difference between a standard 9mm round and a 9mm +P+ round that would cause excessive barrel wear?
T.
-
terror.. I am not that concerned about barrel wear but... what would cause more "wear" in +P ammo over regular would be errosion of the throat by the increased/hotter gas. What that means is that the first part of the rifling will start to wash out and the bullet will "skip" a little before the rifling grabs.
Also.. jacketed bullets will wear out barrels much faster than lead ones and blocks.. like most semi autos, don't really like lead bullets.. revolvers love em tho. 90% of the ammo I shoot in handguns is cast lead slugs.
+P's operate at higher pressure too so the slide and frame will be battered more.
frode.. the transfer bar simply work hardened like all metal does.. I don't think this is common.. it is the first one I have heard of and it is cheap and easy to fix in any case.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
terror.. I am not that concerned about barrel wear but... what would cause more "wear" in +P ammo over regular would be errosion of the throat by the increased/hotter gas. What that means is that the first part of the rifling will start to wash out and the bullet will "skip" a little before the rifling grabs.
Also.. jacketed bullets will wear out barrels much faster than lead ones and blocks.. like most semi autos, don't really like lead bullets.. revolvers love em tho. 90% of the ammo I shoot in handguns is cast lead slugs.
+P's operate at higher pressure too so the slide and frame will be battered more.
frode.. the transfer bar simply work hardened like all metal does.. I don't think this is common.. it is the first one I have heard of and it is cheap and easy to fix in any case.
lazs
I agree. Barrel wear using +P+ ammo in a Glock is not a concern. The Glock was designed with hotter, higher pressure ammunition in mind. Yes, it will probably wear out a bit faster with the hotter, higher pressure ammo, but not to any concern of the average shooter.
Lead bullets are not recommended in a Glock.
T.
-
Originally posted by Terror
So if pressures have nothing to do with it, then would you kindly explain how a "+p+" ammo will significantly reduce the life of a given firearm?
T.
I own a Glock 17, so I am not anti-Glock.
You should be aware of what is being called "kb!" in Glocks shooting overpressure loads. Note I said overpressure. Still, it's something to note.
kb! (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html)
-
Originally posted by Toad
I own a Glock 17, so I am not anti-Glock.
You should be aware of what is being called "kb!" in Glocks shooting overpressure loads. Note I said overpressure. Still, it's something to note.
kb! (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html)
A case failure can occur in any semi-auto fire-arm. Note:HK USP45 (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hk-kb.html) It seems to occur most frequently in larger caliber firearms using reloads or remanufactured ammo.
Either weakend brass from multiple processings or extreme over-charge seem to be the main ingredient in the failures. Also, "bullet setback" has also been noted as a potential cause. (bullet setback is where the bullet gets pushed back into the case after multiple chamberings of the round and ejecting it. bullet setback causes extreme over-pressure conditions)
Also, the Glock's wide chamber throat leaves a small unsupported region of brass right above the ramp. This is the area that fails during a "kb!".
Using factory new ammunition seems to be the main solution to avoiding a "kb!".
T.
-
Also, the Glock's wide chamber throat leaves a small unsupported region of brass right above the ramp. This is the area that fails during a "kb!".
This is the problem area and high pressure loads are the culprits. Common sense tells me that a steady diet of +p+ loads might eventually be a problem.
That article gives no data on just what the pressure was on the loads that did cause a kb! in Glocks. So it may have to be an extremely high pressure to cause a malfunction.
But it still highlights a question in my mind. If you have to go to max pressure in a 9mm to get .40 or .45 performance levels...why not just use a .40 or .45?
-
Had a Glock for a few years. Ok gun. When i pressed the trigger a bullet came out the other end every time (unless the thingy in the grip was empty) and hit what i aimed at (if i aimed good enough). :)
-
When we speak of jacketed vs lead bullets we are speaking wear and tear and cost.
for reloaders.. the revolver is still king. there is no unsupported brass.. there is no issue with bullet shape or even pressure.. there is no issue with lead or jacketed slugs.
there is no issue with trying to find the brass your gun just tossed away to the range or CSI... also... you can reload the ammo for a third of what factory ammo costs and half of what jacketed reloads cost...
this is not even factoring in lost or damaged brass and the fact that auto brass is some of the weakest I have ever seen... 44 mag brass is tough!
I was fortunate to have have access to range brass... I have about 14,000 once fired 45 auto cases.. don't care if they get lost or damaged at this point.
lazs
-
Somewhere on that site is an article describing why Glocks pop. It usually happens in Glocks chambered for .40 S&W because the chamber is reamed out a few thousandths too large (.002-3 if my memory isn't off). That, combined with the lack of full support above the feed ramp, triggers a bulged case on occasion. But a round that was double-charged at the factory (or in your press) could blow the gun apart. I know that site has an article regarding the Portland PD experience with a double-charged factory round in their .40 Glocks. The author of the kB! article stated he checked the chamber spec against his .357 Sig barrel (from Glock) and found the .40 Smith was cut a tad big. Yet his .357 Sig barrel was bang on the money, even a little tight. It wasn't solely a large chamber, or solely a lack of case support, but a combo of the two that could cause problems.
Now if I could only find the bloody thing again! :o
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Terror, again, the 9mm round is a worthless round. Why do you think the US is attempting to revert back to the .45acp? Actually, your Glock is NOT rated for +P+ ammo. But it's your gun, I'd look into a new barrel and spring.
Masherbrum:
You obviously have no first hand knowledge or experience in using Glocks.
Here is what my Glock's owner's manual says about ammo:
6. Ammunition Specifications for Glock Pistols
Glock pistols are designed to be fired with NATO or SAAMI specification ammunition. Therefore the following guidelines and specifications are provided so that proper ammunition will be selected for use in Glock pistols to assure proper functioning.
Any deviation from these specifications may lead to improper functioning and possibly void the warranty on Glock pistols.
Glock 9mm pistols will function properly with the new generation of 9x19mm ammunition including all +P+ and 147 grain subsonic ammunition currently in use or being introduced in the United States.
Minimum (lower limit) specifications for 9mm Ammunition to be used in Glock Pistols:
Bullet Weight 115 grains / 7.5 grams
Muzzle Velocity 1180 fps / 350 meters/sec
Maximum (upper limit) pressures for 9x19mm ammunition to be used in Glock pistols should not exceed 43,500 pounds per square inch/ 3000 BAR
You really do yourself a severe discredit, by making such obviously false statements. You are damaging your own credibility badly by doing this.
Here is a photo of my Glock 17. The only ammo that I ever shoot in it are the two Winchester +P+ Law Enforcement loads in the picture next to the gun. I have a dealer friend who sells this ammo to me at the really cheap Law Enforcement prices, even though he really is not supposed to even sell me the ammo period.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/glock.jpg)
My gun still shoots and looks like new.
With Glock being the number one Law Enforcement pistol in the United States, it is absolutely ludicrous for you to claim that it is not able to shoot Law Enforcement level ammunition that is marketed specifically to police departments for use in such pistols.
SIG 220
-
Originally posted by Heater
Ok Gun gods....
what 's the best way to go here, as I said price is not realy an issue
so I am open to suggestions
Cheers
The Smith and Wesson M&P is a much newer design than either the Glock or XD pistols, and has been getting fantastic reviews and awards. I would choose it, over either of those two.
Smith and Wesson is currently even running a promotion on the M&P pistol for consumers. If you buy one now, you qualify to get a $50 rebate, and two free extra magazines will be shipped to you as well.
Go to mp-pistol.com, and see how owners of these guns are raving about how great they are. Here is a link:
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/portal.php
SIG 220
-
Got the numbers from the IDPA Nationals:
Glock still the most used by quite a margin....
Gun Used Number Percentage
Glock 106 31.64%
Smith & Wesson 68 20.30%
Springfield 39 11.64%
Kimber 22 6.57%
STI 18 5.37%
Beretta 11 3.28%
Sig Sauer 10 2.99%
Colt 9 2.69%
Para Ordnance 8 2.39%
Wilson Combat 6 1.79%
Caspian 6 1.79%
Les Baer 6 1.79%
Browning 5 1.49%
CZ 4 1.19%
SVI 3 0.90%
Nighthawk Cstm 2 0.60%
H&K 2 0.60%
Dan Wesson 2 0.60%
Nowlin 2 0.60%
EAA 1 0.30%
Amadini Custom 1 0.30%
Rock River 1 0.30%
EGW/Caspian 1 0.30%
Cline Trigger 1 0.30%
Tanfoglio 1 0.30%
T.
PS. Boy....formatting is a bear....