Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Viking on November 12, 2007, 10:05:12 AM
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Wtg Airbus! :aok
With options the 81 aircraft order may be increased by 50 more A350s to a staggering $32 billion.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7090400.stm
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They seem to be doing just fine ;)
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Oh, it's on the 320, but good the same. Enjoy :D
(BTW, this guy flies for Iceland Express. Just hope he doesn't start playing them around like the Airbus, - just flew with I.E. the other day :D)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKBABNL-DDM
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320? you mean 350
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it definately helps to be on good terms with these arab carriers. they spend big money. Unfortunately for us. Its just my opinion but I think their is a bias against the United States (and by proxy its companies) in the middle east, and the Euros take full advantage of it (as well they should). but thats just my opinion. Chances are my opinion is not correct but Im stickin with it :aok
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Speaking of Airbus...
http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10167017.html
:eek:
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Speaking of Airbus...
http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10167017.html
:eek:
wow!
If not for oil he'd probably be flying a camel.
(http://www.aviationartsa.com/art/Aircraft/Sopwith_Camel.jpg)
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Originally posted by Angus
Oh, it's on the 320, but good the same. Enjoy :D
(BTW, this guy flies for Iceland Express. Just hope he doesn't start playing them around like the Airbus, - just flew with I.E. the other day :D)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKBABNL-DDM
Bruce Dickinson is always a hoot :). Must be quite an old show though if that was the first A320.
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Originally posted by Yeager
it definately helps to be on good terms with these arab carriers. they spend big money. Unfortunately for us. Its just my opinion but I think their is a bias against the United States (and by proxy its companies) in the middle east, and the Euros take full advantage of it (as well they should). but thats just my opinion. Chances are my opinion is not correct but Im stickin with it :aok
You may very well be right about that Yeager. You people are not exactly making yourselves popular in that part of the world.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Speaking of Airbus...
http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10167017.html
:eek:
Flying palace indeed. Some people have way to much money! :eek:
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Roman Abramovich bought a A380 for his private jet already couple months ago.
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Viking, not sure how old tha vid-clip was. But Dickinsson is only about 50, and the A320 was starting in 1988. So I'd bet that it was being tested for a long time after it came in service.
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Sure, but he says that the plane is the first A320.
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Originally posted by Viking
You may very well be right about that Yeager. You people are not exactly making yourselves popular in that part of the world.
Tell you what Viking, when terrorism lands on your door step who are you going to run to... your EU buddies? People I talk to every day have thanked me personally for being here. Have personally thanked me and my nation. My perspective is a little different than yours because I have made the choice to be at the pointy end of the stick.
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See Rule #4
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I prefer pointy heads rather than thick heads :D
(After all, my ancestor were Vikings)
Anyway, Viking, interesting with the time, - and Bruce. Are they just running up this testbed avery now and now, - the testing before A320 would have been before 1988 anyway, - even well before! I must confess that I also have absolutely no idea about what the TV material is. I'd love to see more though.
I just looked up Bruce on Wiki, he apparently is now getting some fame for his flying. He actually flew Iron Maiden to Iceland, held the concert with them, and then flew them back. One ball of energy.
(And a champion in Fencing as well ;))
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Originally posted by Viking
Flying palace indeed. Some people have way to much money! :eek:
They have as much money as we have given them.
The good thing about this sort of spending, as is characteristic of most wealthy middle-eastern arabs, is that given these habits, they'll be bankrupt about 5 minutes after the wells run dry. No more gold-leaf wall-paper. No more silver plated BMWs. Just a whole lot of sand, a whole lot of Allah, and hopefully a couple rusty AKs with which they can continue to cull their populations.
We can only dream of the day when this happens.
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the prince is only paying $319 million for the plane, a pro sports team costs more than that.
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Originally posted by Neubob
They have as much money as we have given them.
The good thing about this sort of spending, as is characteristic of most wealthy middle-eastern arabs, is that given these habits, they'll be bankrupt about 5 minutes after the wells run dry. No more gold-leaf wall-paper. No more silver plated BMWs. Just a whole lot of sand, a whole lot of Allah, and hopefully a couple rusty AKs with which they can continue to cull their populations.
We can only dream of the day when this happens.
Yeah because they spend it all on bling and does not invest anything overseas or in their future. We all know they are backwards and not so bright when it comes to money.
^ irony
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Neubob has never been to Dubai. He doesn't know the lengths the Sheiks there have gone to provide for a post-oil economy. It's a huge holiday destination for Europeans and Western companies are relocating there.
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Dubai will run out of oil in some 10 years AFAIK. The Sheik is quite clever, and is investing oil money in a luxury-ramp between the east and the west.
Many of the others are just buying tanks etc.
When you think of this, you can just begin to think what Hussein could have done, had he been a businessman rather than a maniac.
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Originally posted by Neubob
They have as much money as we have given them.
The good thing about this sort of spending, as is characteristic of most wealthy middle-eastern arabs, is that given these habits, they'll be bankrupt about 5 minutes after the wells run dry. No more gold-leaf wall-paper. No more silver plated BMWs. Just a whole lot of sand, a whole lot of Allah, and hopefully a couple rusty AKs with which they can continue to cull their populations.
We can only dream of the day when this happens.
I think the good news is that there's no Wallah Whackbar space exploration/colonization effort. We'll be out there soon enough and it'd be nice not to have any sort of dependency on them as we have with fossil fuel.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Neubob has never been to Dubai. He doesn't know the lengths the Sheiks there have gone to provide for a post-oil economy. It's a huge holiday destination for Europeans and Western companies are relocating there.
Yeah, I forgot that Dubai encompassed the entire middle east. Building those artificial island chains isn't at all risky, either. The Airport Island the Japanese built sinks a few inches each year, but then again what to the Japs know about engineering when compared to the mighty, industrious Arabs... And the 7 star hotel--an excellent way to attract the middle class hoards. Indoor ski-resort--a brilliant way to attract the Alpine crowd...
When the rest of the region dries up, which it will, you don't think that the subsequent depression that envelopes the entire region might have just a tiny little effect on what your beloved Sheik's have planned? Or do you think that the brilliant business minds of the frugal Arabs will suddenly compensate for the sudden vacuum?
In regards to these Western Companies, most or ours are still based in Delaware.
But since you're an expert--why don't you tell me what's it's like in Dubai? What's their plan for financing the Saudi and Kuwaiti post-oil transformation? And what's your favorite restaurant there?
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Originally posted by Neubob
Yeah, I forgot that Dubai encompassed the entire middle east.
it isnt the entire middle east who has buys these blig-bling thigs either ;)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
it isnt the entire middle east who has buys these blig-bling thigs either ;)
My mistake, yet again.
Arabs are generally known for their financial frugality, their thoughtful investments, their innovative approach to science and industry, and their pragmatic, secular social mindset.
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They actualy are notable for their (often enough) ascetism (precursor to frugality), thoughtful investments, and they often do in fact admire western science and technology.
Pragmatism and secularity are probably nothing to write home about though...
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And Boeing isn't that marginalized in the full order tally:
Airbus:
70 A320's
30 A350's
Boeing:
70 737's
15 787's
10 777's
5 748F's
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They admire Western innovation and industry? I guess you're right. Ferrari and Mercedes does have quite a customer base out there. Admiration is hardly immitation, however. The Arabic tech industry isn't quite a world leader. They aren't much of a force in Chemicals either. They did make some advancements in medicine... Maybe one day somebody can build a time machine so that we may see it first hand. As far as this asceticism--I'm sure they're all for it in theory. In practice they have built some of the gaudiest, most arrogant monuments to their material wealth on the planet. Hubris piled atop hubris, and all of pumped from the ground, derived from a rapidly expiring natural resource that without western assistence, they would have never located in the first place.
Claiming that Dubai can in any way compensate for the inevitable economic upheavel is like saying that Delaware Corporate Law and Las Vegas Tourism will save the US in the event of a nationwide depression. Utterly absurd.
Sorry for the hijack (no pun intended) attempt. Rant over.
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Originally posted by VWE
Tell you what Viking, when terrorism lands on your door step who are you going to run to... your EU buddies? People I talk to every day have thanked me personally for being here. Have personally thanked me and my nation. My perspective is a little different than yours because I have made the choice to be at the pointy end of the stick.
Yet ... despite your personal efforts, which I'm sure are honorable, and those of your comrades, America remains very unpopular in the Middle-East. Now more so than ever before. This is not a slight to you or your friends, but an unfortunate fact.
I pointed out this unfortunate fact to enforce Yeagers speculation that Arab/Persian bias toward American companies may very well exist, and that some of Airbus' success might be a result of that. No offense was intended.
And btw. terrorism "landed" in Norway a long time ago. I've personally been affected by two terrorist acts on Norwegian soil. America is a late-comer in the "War on Terror (tm)".
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Originally posted by moot
And Boeing isn't that marginalized in the full order tally:
Airbus:
70 A320's
30 A350's
Boeing:
70 737's
15 787's
10 777's
5 748F's
According to BBC the Airbus order was for 70 A350's and 11 A380's with an option to buy 50 more A350's.
Edit: Emirates (airline) has ordered the 70 A350 and 11 A380. Dubai Aerospace Enterprise (DAE) ordered the 70 A320 and 30 A350. Saudi Arabian Airlines ordered 22 A320.
That's a total of 92 A320, 100-150 A350, and 11 A380.
Airbus says it got a total of 259 firm orders at the Dubai air show. I don't know how many Boeing got.
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Originally posted by Angus
I prefer pointy heads rather than thick heads :D
(After all, my ancestor were Vikings)
Anyway, Viking, interesting with the time, - and Bruce. Are they just running up this testbed avery now and now, - the testing before A320 would have been before 1988 anyway, - even well before! I must confess that I also have absolutely no idea about what the TV material is. I'd love to see more though.
I just looked up Bruce on Wiki, he apparently is now getting some fame for his flying. He actually flew Iron Maiden to Iceland, held the concert with them, and then flew them back. One ball of energy.
(And a champion in Fencing as well ;))
Yeah ... I loved Bruce's comments on the Spitfire's beauty in some Discovery "10 best something" show, and i paraphrase: "The Spitfire is the only plane that has reduced my wife to tears!". :)
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Neubob, all I see in your messages is hate, hate and more hate. Everyone here has plenty of reasons to dislike the Arabs, but in reality they have laid down the foundations we walk on today.
Arabic Numerals: 0-9
Algebra: The work of a man named, "Mahommed ben Musa al-Khwarizmi"
These two items which Arabs invented are the foundations for everything today. You can't design a plane unless you know lots about aerodynamics, engineering and electronics. All three of those factors require major amounts of knowledge in Physics and Algebra to study forces of nature.
No matter how greatly you dislike them, you can't deny they helped life improve a long time ago.
Originally posted by Neubob
...Maybe one day somebody can build a time machine so that we may see it first hand...
Time machines don't exist because people using them travel to the past to murder the creators of the time machine.
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Bob, I'm just saying that they admire the west's technological achievements. Narrowing down their pursuits to some religious dogmatism certainly did them no favors in that regard.
Nomad Bin Laden certainly is a good example of ascetism. So are most of the archetypesque "leaders", Moktadasadr & co.... They don't live for anything but their duty. Bread and water sort of livelihood.
I don't mind your ranting, I agree with almost all of it in fact, but I don't know what you mean by "hubris [...]", could you give a brief example?
Denholm, someone was bound to devise a base 10 scheme, and it wasn't a discovery that favored Arab culture more than any other... We don't owe electronics or the rest of those examples you cite to Arabs.
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Originally posted by Denholm
Arabic Numerals: 0-9
Algebra: The work of a man named, "Mahommed ben Musa al-Khwarizmi"
These two items which Arabs invented are the foundations for everything today.
so what have they done recently? Oh, i know, they perfected the car bomb.
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I wasn't pulling for their current modern success. I was mentioning that although there are so many reasons to be hateful towards them we should remember that they're still humans and in the past have laid foundations for all human life to help us succeed in many fashions.
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When the rest of the region dries up, which it will, you don't think that the subsequent depression that envelopes the entire region might have just a tiny little effect on what your beloved Sheik's have planned?
I think they have a way to go yet. The ME has 61.5% of world proved oil reserves, yet currently supplies only 31.2% of the world's oil.
The ME currently has a replacement to production rate of 79.5, meaning it would take 79.5 years at current output to exhaust their reserves. That compares to 12 years for North America, 41.2 years for South and Central America, 22.5 years for Europe, 31.1 years for Africa and 14 years for Asia Pacific.
Perhaps showing restraint in how much oil they pump now, so that they will still have oil in another 50 years, is their way of planning for the future?
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Originally posted by Viking
Yeah ... I loved Bruce's comments on the Spitfire's beauty in some Discovery "10 best something" show, and i paraphrase: "The Spitfire is the only plane that has reduced my wife to tears!". :)
NOW NOW NOW. You can't swing that one in front of me without a linkie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(BTW, I was once looking at Spits showing up with MY wife. She thought they were absolutely cool ;))
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Originally posted by moot
And Boeing isn't that marginalized in the full order tally:
Airbus:
70 A320's
30 A350's
Boeing:
70 737's
15 787's
10 777's
5 748F's
Air Blue
8 A320
Yemenia Airways
10 A350-800 XWB
Dubai Aerospace Enterprise
Airbus - Total 100
70 A320
30 A350XWB
Boeing - Total 100
70 737NG
15 787
10 777-300ER
5 747-8F
Qatar
Boeing - Total 57
30 787 + 35 options
6 777-200LR
14 777-300ER
7 777F
Emirates
Airbus - Total 81
50 A350-900
20 A350-1000 + 50 options.
11 A380
Boeing
12 777-300ER
Nas Air
Airbus
20 A320
Embraer
5 E190 + 5 options + purchase rights + 12
Air Arabia
Airbus
34 A320 + 15 options
Saudi Arabian
Airbus
22 A320s + purchase rights for 8
TOTALS
Airbus
154 A320
110 A350
11 A380
-------------
275
Boeing
70 737
5 747-8F
6 777-200LR
36 777-300ER
45 787
-------------
162
63 : 37
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Originally posted by Viking
You may very well be right about that Yeager. You people are not exactly making yourselves popular in that part of the world.
That doesn't seem to be the case though, rather, just your opinion.
Dubai Aerospace Enterprise (DAE) signed a US $13.5 billion letter of intent with Airbus for up to 100 aircraft, which included the an associated deal with Rolls-Royce for Trent XWB engines to power the A350 XWBs.
The aircraft will be owned by the group’s aircraft leasing and financing business, DAE Capital. Within hours DAE capital went on to sign a letter of intent for 100 aircraft, worth approximately US $13.7 billion with Boeing, for 70 Boeing 737 next generation aircraft and 30 widebody planes with the price incorporating a deal with General Electric for engines to power the aircraft. Then Boeing went on to win an order, worth around US $972 million, for six additional 787-8 Dreamliners from Dubai-based LCAL, an aircraft leasing company.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Then Boeing went on to win an order, worth around US $972 million, for six additional 787-8 Dreamliners from Dubai-based LCAL, an aircraft leasing company.
The deal, worth approximately $972 million at list prices, previously was listed on the Boeing Orders and Deliveries Web site and attributed to an unidentified customer.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
That doesn't seem to be the case though, rather, just your opinion.[/i]
It is true that it is just my opinion, however like 2bighorn has shown Airbus seriously outsold Boeing in the Dubai air show; even the A350 outsold the 787 by more than double. I doubt it is just because Airbus makes better planes.
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Rip, what is your opinion on Rudy's take on the 787 vs. A350 ... conflict?
http://www.leeham.net/filelib/Rudy.pdf
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by Denholm
they have laid down the foundations we walk on today.
So did fish...
If those arab innovators were alive today, they wouldn't recognize what their own people have turned themselves into. And if the spirit of their inventiveness is any illustration of their character, they would surely not be proud of their descendants.
Moot,
By hubris I refer to things like that series of artificial island chains designed as prime real-estate for the super wealth. That would be classified as hubris before nature... The free-to-enter amusement park courtesy of the Sultan of Brunai... The car collections, the palaces, and all the other zero-return investments. They live and behave like the richest men ever--which they are not, by a longshot.
Yes, this does somewhat fly in the face of my own belief that a man should spend his money the way he wants, but even I see something inherently arrogant about spending trillions on expensive toys that add nothing to the economy--especially when so many arabs live in poverty. Such self-worship cannot end well, and won't, no matter what lengths these Sheiks went to to ensure a post oil-economy.
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Originally posted by Viking
Rip, what is your opinion on Rudy's take on the 787 vs. A350 ... conflict?
http://www.leeham.net/filelib/Rudy.pdf
Has the A350 rolled out yet? When it does, I'll comment. :aok
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Originally posted by Viking
It is true that it is just my opinion, however like 2bighorn has shown Airbus seriously outsold Boeing in the Dubai air show; even the A350 outsold the 787 by more than double. I doubt it is just because Airbus makes better planes.
Yes, selling airplanes at almost cost and writing it all off on the EU governments (taxes you pay) will definately sell more planes! Great for the customer, sucks for the taxpayers in the EU though.:lol
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Originally posted by john9001
See Rule #5
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yes, selling airplanes at almost cost and writing it all off on the EU governments (taxes you pay) will definately sell more planes! Great for the customer, sucks for the taxpayers in the EU though.:lol
And how do you know this? I bet you don't, and your post is just the result of wounded pride. Also, I don't pay tax to the EU.
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Originally posted by Viking
And how do you know this? I bet you don't, and your post is just the result of wounded pride. Also, I don't pay tax to the EU.
Wounded pride? Hardly...airbus as been a competitor since before I hired on at Boeing in 1979. Competitors are what capitalism is all about, my socialist friend.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
... my socialist friend.
Hey ... I resent that remark! I'm not a socialist.
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and they'll sell their oil in euros to pay for the planes in euro... which means no more free socialist lunches for rip and boeing and america.
oh... the irony of these closet socialist.
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Thanks Bighorn.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yes, selling airplanes at almost cost and writing it all off on the EU governments (taxes you pay) will definately sell more planes! Great for the customer, sucks for the taxpayers in the EU though.:lol
Govts. prop up industries across the globe...Airbus is not special in that regard
Tronsky
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well, its a complicated business, this building airplanes thing. and the competition between capitalist and socialist economies is bound to become more intense as time goes by.
AB has definately benifited by having a common family of airplanes developed all within a relatively short time span where technology has pretty much stabilized, whereas BA has developed its family of airplanes over a 50 year period of time with all manner of technologies being incorporated along the way. This sort of ad hoc approach has been difficult to manage but the success so far has proven BA to be world class beyond doubt. I for one think the US government will not allow its airplane manufactoring base to be defeated by white tail socialist subsidies. That would be a national disaster. But, BA needs to be profitable whereas AB apparently does not, all AB needs to do is break even. We shall see.
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Airbus is a private corporation just like Boeing. If they only break even I don't think their investors will be very happy. Like Boeing Airbus needs to be profitable. You can buy stock in EADS just as you can with Boeing.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Part1: So did fish...
Part 2: If those Arab innovators were alive today, they wouldn't recognize what their own people have turned themselves into. And if the spirit of their inventiveness is any illustration of their character, they would surely not be proud of their descendants...
I totally agree with you on part 2, however not on part 1.
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Not a believer in evolution, or just not a fan of the comparison?
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The hubris thing... I don't think there's anything arrogant about it. It's their cash, theirs to waste - I don't care so long as it doesn't directly interfere with how I spend mine.
You could probably turn anything into arrogance, e.g. average people's insistence on mediocre standards and tiny little earthly wants that mean nothing in terms of human progress, that's arrogant enough.. When you consider the worthlessness of those pursuits, it's easily arrogant of people to pretend it's a better choice to stick to comforts of a beaten path rather than get out of that comfort zone.
Now that's off topic.
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After a good showing in Dubai, this is announced: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21941102/)
Due to the Euro / Dollar excahnge rate,
Enders indicated to unions that Airbus could shift an increasing proportion of R&D activities to countries outside Europe and would have to move more production to dollar-zone economies.
"We need to question our business model. It is no longer sustainable," he said.
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Yes, if the once mighty Dollar continues to free-fall it will have serious global repercussions.
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Falling Dollar means that exports from the USA will be better off basically.
If the Dollar was now sharing the curves with the Euro, the competition between Boeing and Airbus would be markedly more favourable to the Airbus.
Hence the speculation.
However, that is a somewhat short lived one, - albeit with a lot of money involved.
A country with the currency falling endlessly is going to suffer an economical screw-up. INFLATION.
While this is tried and tested in some 3rd world countries, as well as Germany in the 30's, I wonder what that would do to the USA of today.
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Originally posted by Viking
Yes, if the once mighty Dollar continues to free-fall it will have serious global repercussions.
yes, the US will start selling cheap toys to china. :eek:
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Oh, not quite.
But anything cheap you are importing will not be as cheap.
You would have to chop down the dollar a lot to compete with China there.
While the USA has more efficiency in production, bear in mind that the Chinese don't take the US lifestandard for granted.....their hours are long, badly paid, and the consumption (although growing) is laughable compared to the US...
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Originally posted by Angus
Oh, not quite.
But anything cheap you are importing will not be as cheap.
You would have to chop down the dollar a lot to compete with China there.
While the USA has more efficiency in production, bear in mind that the Chinese don't take the US lifestandard for granted.....their hours are long, badly paid, and the consumption (although growing) is laughable compared to the US...
We'll have to sell them to Europe then where we won't have to chop down the dollar and our hours make us look like china comparatively. You want regular or unleaded? ;)
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Some in here (like me) have waited that price of American cars would get lower due the cheaper dollar but it looks like importers won't lower the prices but increase their own share.
However US manufacturers will get paid by dollars so it's lose/lose situation for American car manufacturers and only winner is importer.
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allot of "imports" are built in the US.
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Lower dollar means (for the USA) that importing stuff is more expensive, and for export, the USA will get more $ pr.unit.
Don't know where you live Brownshirt, but where I live, American stuff has been growing on the market due to the weak position of the $.
You can buy a lot of things from the USA now for quite a good price.
However when you go mechanical for instance,it gets worse, - we are a Euro-metric country, and even the TV system is different. So lots of more advanced US products do not fit so easily. If common, it's okay, - like cars.
Standards...aircraft.
Crudes like Cheerio's...yes.
DVD's, players for those, electrical gadgets etc etc, - the US does not match.....us.
The results I see from a weakened dollar is mostly big fat cars.