Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: schlowy2 on November 12, 2007, 11:25:22 PM
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Why do 109's compress so much? Everyones always yelling wing loading when talking about 109 turning performance...
Well, is there such thing as elevator wing loading? I wonder how it would rank with the other planes.
weight of the plane
------------------------------- = elevator wing loading?
area of the elevators
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A LIST OF THESE RATIOS FOR ALL THE PLANES PLEASE!!!
Did the 109's elevators not pitch up enuf? (this would have been too easy to fix.)
What is so different about 109's elevators that the they lock up with speed so early in AH2?
If it really did lock up so badly, why didn't ole Willy just change the tail somehow? Example: change the whole thing out, put a 190's tail plane on the 109 since the 190's didn't seem to have the problems. How is it that even the late model K4 still has the problem (in AH2)?
The compressing is some sort of doppler effect that eventually forms a cone of 'compressed air' on the wing which pinches it... hence the controlls freeze, this phenomenon happens to all planes, why at such an earlier speed on the 109s (in AH2)???
I've lawn darted 109's too many times in AH2. I don't have an 'experten' control set up with an extra switch (or pair of buttons) for elevator trim, so by the time I get to the 'k' button its too late and not enuf. IMO in the 109's (in AH2) an 'elevator trim tab' control is a must.
I know that AH2 didn't start this 'myth' but it does model it.
Me thinks that 109's compression probs is a fargon lie made up by Eric Brown and his counterparts.
All those testers might be being honest about the 109's compressability but lied about their own planes saying 'Naw, our plane had no probs with compression at all'... riight.
The plane weights and elevator areas PLEASE!
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You can always make your own based on your own research. I'm sure there are plenty of websites that have elevator area for many different aircraft.
But, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
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WWII tests by the RAF as I recall.
I seem to recall something like the following being said:
"The reason for Bf109s to sometimes dive into the ground was now understood."
BTW, this:
Originally posted by schlowy2
weight of the plane
------------------------------- = elevator wing loading?
area of the elevators
has no direct bearing on it.
Look at the Ki-84 and the Spitfire. One has heavy elevators at speed and the other extremely, almost dangerously light elevators yet are very similar in weight and power.
Also, it isn't compression. It is just heavy stick forces, like a Spitfire's ailerons. If it were compression it could not be trimmed out of, and it can be trimmed out of.
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So many flaws, I don't know where to begin.
The issue has nothing to do with the weight of the plane. The CG of these types of planes will be in the fore 1/3rd of the wing. The tail is as far away from the CG as you can get...intentionally, because it is basically a lever to affect the angle of attack of the wings.
"Compression" is technically what happens when a foil is moving though the air so fast that the air can no logger get out of the way in an efficent flow. Instead, pockets of air are accelerated to supersonic speeds which cause a separation of normal air flow, and number of issues with producing lift and/or ineffective control surfaces because of the lack of normal airflow.
The 109 has the opposite problem. The airflow is so efficent at a range of high speed, that the pilot cannot exert enough force on the stick to move it. Why was it designed that way? Same as all the other high performance WWII fighters. They didn't know any better because there was a lack of experience with aircraft reaching high enough speeds to cause these problems. Why wasn't the 109 fixed during its deveopment? No idea. Just pointing out the errors in your preconcieved notions.
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Try disabling combat trim in the 109 if you are about to do a high speed dive. The plane is not actually compressing, it's just the combat trim trimming the elevators down to counter the tendency of the nose of the 109 to pitch up at high speed. You should be able to dive over 500 safely if you turn off combat trim and trim the elevators more neutral before you dive. Also, you can use the k button to manually trim up elevators to help with pullout if necessary.
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Manual trim has always been the key to mastering the 109 in this game.
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conpression is the building up of air on the leading edges of the wing that made an area of that had low air presure which decreased the elevator response the p38 has worse compesion than the 190 that was the reson modern fighters are built with swept wings:)
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The effecting factor can be the elevator area but that is not the case with 109. The plane is reported as being stiff, but at the same time it is said to fly like "on rails". If you optimize the response to typical combat speeds it may get too stiff at high speeds. The trim was certainly used IRL in 109s to counter the high elevator forces in high speeds but I guess the benefits in control stability may well have been bigger factor so it was never seen beneficial to alter it. Actually, I don't know if it was tampered with in K models?
One observation: if the plane is reported of having its control column "set in concrete" it cannot be because of compression but the control column would rather lose its effectiveness altogether as the compression causes the air to deflect away from control surface as Murdr already said. So the "set in concrete" is probably more an effect of elevator linkage ratios being optimized to lower speeds or material strength problems causing locking or bending etc.
In earlier planes also the "ballooning" of control surfaces was an issue causing ineffectiveness.
-C+
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You can take the 109k past 525 mph in dives and still control it through use of the trim controls.
Since I don't need to use the "hat" button on my stick I have it set to control enevator and aileron trim. I also have a button to toggle combat trim on and off.
When the controls start getting "heavy" I turn off combat trim and start using manual trim to maintain control. Once the plane is pointing the way I want it I just toggle combat trim back on and it resets the trim back to neutral.
One thing....you need to remember to be careful and be smooth with your stick deflection when you do this, so you don't overstress the plane and break it.
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See Rules #4, #5, #7
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Originally posted by schlowy2
See Rules #4, #5, #7
:rofl :aok
Ever checked K/D stat's for that poor handicapped German fighters? How can planes that are unlikly to win any combat have one of the highest K/D's ? And that consistently for years?
Looking at your own stat's I rather get the impression you like to blame HTC for your own inability to fly your favourite planes.
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Originally posted by schlowy2
See Rules #4, #5, #7
I think the elevator trim on the 109 worked by moving the whole horizontal stablilzer, and not just small tabs on the elevators. So, in effect, the trim could have a larger effect than the elevators at certain speeds.
Lusche is spot on about the German planes. "It's the man not the machine."
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You have a clear bias if you think of German aircraft as "the uber" planes.
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Someone:
Post some of those 'prove all that' sites that can't be nay'ed about the 109's controls locked up sooo much sooner than the other planes?
Imma read wiki all about it tomorrow, didn't even see any mention when skimmed it.
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TUXC, I've wondered about that too. Only the 109E for the wartime ones, how it controlled I don't know. Whole front of the tail plane wing tilted down to 105degrees (a marking on drawings say 105degrees), and the upper marking looks like the same distance, so up to 75degrees. But it has tabs also.
Check the drawings at wikipedia, can zoom way in...
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You have a clear bias if you think of German aircraft as "the uber" planes.
Ever checked K/D stat's for that poor handicapped German fighters? How can planes that are unlikly to win any combat have one of the highest K/D's ? And that consistently for years?
:lol
You two peeps need to be more specific, in game or in history?
Assuming you two mean both, I could say stuff, but I'll let you two argue it out. Imma gain some alth and then bnz the winner.
In I think my 3rd season:
My best in the 190d9 was about 40kills, 40assists, and 0 deaths, maybe 6 ditches and maybe 10 bails, in about 35 flights I think, this is men, I didn't write it down.
To use me old squadies term 'one pass hall ass' method, although many times I flew home all kinds of shot up but still landed.
(no captures, i spent sometimes 2 hours walking back to base. Push and hold R button, then push / and release both. Then go do whatever for about 2 hours, can walk back from just outside enemy base.)
Then one day gf called on phone... I mindlessly followed a plane :(
About 50 feet off the ground, I flew over the center of an enemy base, I was just above where the runways cross, enemy planes everywhere, besides the one I was chasing. All the bases acks we're up. And the planes on the runway facing me. I felt like butch casidy and the sundance kid.:eek:
Priorities, after the call, I went to fighter town and totalled me score.
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Another one for ya AH2:
Did ya know that some HP puters that have other 3 extra drivers for their keyboard, for some reason they can type the brackets but the zoom won't adjust the toggled zoom? And that the ` button doesn't work either, so we only see 3 lines of the chat buffer. I went thru the 2week trial without any idea. Eventually I tried to re-assign the keys, well could but still it didn't work. I know now that I must uninstall the 3 drivers everytime I play, if I afk too long, it shuts down and when I wake it up, it installs them back. One of those keyboards with all the buttons and nobs on it.
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Yeah, I'm not too good either. My best was 34 without being shot down in the Mosquito before I collided with a Spitfire Mk IX while being too aggressive.
Neither of us is in any danger of taking Fishu's crown that he did in the Fw190A-8.
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See Rule #5
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Nothing wrong with the 109s in the game, other than the cockpit bars. I've got beams in my walls that aren't that thick.
I'd rate the K-4 in the top 5 fighters easily, probably top 3.
The 190s on the other hand, just aren't good fighters. They never have been. They weren't in real life. In real life, the 190s were generally marginally faster than their opponents, at low altitude. They were never more manueverable (unless one counts a half roll and screaming dive towards the ground as a 'manuever') In real life, kills were nearly always made on unsuspecting targets. That isn't to say they the guy who got shot down wasn't engaged, he may have been fixated on his "target" and never saw the guy who blindsided him, but I guarantee you that combat in real life was not 1v1, 2v1, or Xv1. It was between two groups of planes, and it would probably make even the most timid pilots in the MA look like they were suicidally agressive.
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See Rule #5
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Tangent..
I did mention I have a degree in Math, didn't I?
I'd be impressed if you could explain to me the concept of the integral, not merely pull an example off a Calc 1 cheat sheet.
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See Rule #5
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Alright, good little first year Calc student.
The integral of the sec(U)^2 = tan(U) + C.
Happy?
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See Rule #5
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No, for Bernoulli you've moved up to a sophomore, Diff Eq.
Only two years to go, congratulations.
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I can't blame Urchin, you are ranting like a fool, schlowy
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schlowy2,
You are treating everybody on this board like we are idiots that use a game as reference material.
None of us base our expectations of performance in reality on this, or any or game or combination of games.
But since you are so keen on pushing AW2 and AW3, I will tell you that flight model is utter fiction. That you use it as a reference does not speak well of your understanding of how to collect and evaluate performance data.
Almost all of us have quibbles with some unit performance in AH. None of us think it is perfect.
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Originally posted by schlowy2
Someone:
Post some of those 'prove all that' sites that can't be nay'ed about the 109's controls locked up sooo much sooner than the other planes?
Imma read wiki all about it tomorrow, didn't even see any mention when skimmed it.
Wiki is hardly a definative source for anything, it is in fact riddled with flaws an poor information. That said, why don't you read about compressibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressibility) while you're at it, learn how trim works, and also become familiar with the official 109 dive speed limitation.
Then you might want to consider that you are not the only person in the game that spent years in Air Warrior and/or Warbirds. That there are people here that have massive libraries of information regarding WWII fighters, not only in the form of published books, but also hard to find period documents. Those same people are not likely to jump in and provide research material for those who are to obnoxious, rude, and too lazy to do some research themselves before posting uninformed complaints here. Then you might want to consider that there are a number of fervent Luftwaffe enthusiast here who do not hesitate to speak up if they feel there is an issue with the games flight modeling. The fact that there is not a chorus of voices joining you speaks volumes to the fact that you are not informed enough on the subject to garner support.
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by schlowy2
Murdr, all planes suffered from what you said "dive speed limitation." For you to state that its a 109 problem with no mention of the fact that its a problem for any airplane, only shows bias.
Here we go with the whole reading comprehension issue, and words in peoples mouth.
I said.
Originally posted by Murdr
...and also become familiar with the official 109 dive speed limitation.
BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE FREAKING 109!!
Why would I reference irrelevent material?
Don't be so dense.
I try to hand you some search keywords on a silver platter, and this is the reply I get. Nice.
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See Rule #5
*snicker*
'nuff said.
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There's nothing wrong with the 109's, leave um as they are!
(I even got used to the thick bars, hehe)
Either adapt to its FM or pick another ride ;)
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Originally posted by schlowy2
For you to state that its a 109 problem with no mention of the fact that its a problem for any airplane, only shows bias.
You are incorrect. In fact the link (that you eraced when reposting) in my quote mentions 4 aircraft types that are modled in AH.
Originally posted by Murdr
That said, why don't you read about compressibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressibility) while you're at it, learn how trim works, and also become familiar with the official 109 dive speed limitation.
Furthermore, I did not state it is a 109 problem. I suggested you learn about the specifics of the 109 high speed handling characistics, so you can discuss it in an informed manner, rather than looking like an utter fool.
take 3 : )
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I've spent tours in Luftwaffe aircraft, the Fw190A-5 and Bf109G-14 are both on my favorites list. The A6M5b, Ki-67 and Ki-84 are other Axis aircraft on my favorites list. I found the Fw190D-9 very potent, but I will admit we didn't have the La-7 at that time. That must make it harder on the Fw190D-9s. La-7s are optimized for AH altitudes. Ta152s, Spit XIVs and P-47Ns don't shine much in here as they are best at altitudes above were the fighting normally is.
As to the Mossie, good guns, but if you think it is easier to succeed in a Mossie than an Fw190 or Bf109 you are nuts. Particularly because until this last patch it had major issues in regards to the flight and damage model.
And finally, I never said anything about you being a socalled "Luftwhiner".
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Schlowy, the more I play this game, and the more I learn about aerodynamics, the more I realize that HTC has done an absolutely great job using a vector flight model to represent the Fluid Dynamics that in the real world, make an airplane fly. There are bugs out there perhaps, but most, I believe, are problems with solid, indisputable documentation with respect to the actual aircraft performance, structure, and testing.
There are very good aerodynamic reasons why the 109 loses elevator effectiveness at high speeds, even before compressibility becomes a factor. Those same aerodynaic factors are why other planes don't lose elevator effectiveness at high speeds.
If you are receptive to an explanation, I'll post one. If you continue to think there's some sort of Allied superiority agenda in this game, I'm not going to bother.
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Unfortunately for you schlowy i don't fly the spit, I fly the 109. Up up until a few months ago all i flew was the mossie.
I don't think i need to tell you what urchin flies, i think you can probably guess by now.
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See Rules #4, #6
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See Rule #4, #5
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schlowy, I am only going to leave this post up for a few minutes....
I would rethink that post directed at Skuzzy. IMO are correct that the other poster was likely flamebating. You are even correct to complain about it. But you are way out of line for poping off at HTC staff for not having moderated it. They cannot possibly read every post on this board. If they happen upon a post that need moderated, they take care of it. If someone brings an inappropriate post to their attention, they will also moderate it. What you are doing in that post is more than bringing attention to it. You are asking to be banned from the board permenantly.
Again, consider editing that while you can. The issue is not what you have to say, but the disrespectful attitude in which you say it.
[edit] Actually, I changed my mind, I'll only delete this post if the advise is taken.
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Originally posted by schlowy2
And what do you fly Stoney?
Its about the stats that he chooses to believe, or the ones that he doesn't include, its about no data, and no sources.
This is not World of Warcraft, this is a historic game, we need refferencers, something that, right or wrong, atleast wiki puts.
Typically the P-47 is my main ride, although I fly a lot of different stuff.
Try WWII Aircraft Performance. Excellent website. Look for performance charts for the 109 at Zeno's Warbirds. There are at least a dozen reputable websites out there that have credible information. But, typically on this board, when someone has a gripe about a particular part of the game, they do the research and present it. They don't throw out an opinion and then expect the other forum members to prove them wrong.
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See Rule #4
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I'm just curious if it'll only be the bb you're banned from.