Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vulcan on November 14, 2007, 02:45:41 PM
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you'll like this, a Kiwi from a nz bbs I haunt who's in london, pretty sad/scarey the way things are going over there:
I was leaving the new St Pancras International train station in King's Cross London today after having a look around when I was approached by two police officers and taken aside. It was explained to me that I'd been randomly targeted for a search under the new anti-terrorism laws which allow anyone to be searched at any time in any place for no reason whatsoever
While one of them rummaged through my bag (which contained Asterix books I'd just borrowed from the library), the other one explained to me repeatedly that I was targeted randomly and I just happened to be white. I could have been "white, black, Asian, Indian, Muslim..." according to him. Apparently this is a new visible campaign to show that they aren't harassing just Muslims, but whiteys get the equal treatment. As I was choosing my race on his form (I chose "white"), I suggested that ironically I was more likely to have been chosen since I wasn't Muslim, which he subtly agreed may well be the case.
http://www.gpforums.co.nz/thread/292674/?s=
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so, did they find his bomb?
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vulcan... thanks but...
nooo.. I did not like this at all... it scared the crap out of me.
lazs
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After the London tube bombings I am surprised they don't search every bag entering stations.
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A constitution against unlawful search....like a random road block.....
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They could search 100 times more "white" people than Arabs and the Arabs will still cry racism.
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It was explained to me that I'd been randomly targeted for a search under the new anti-terrorism laws which allow anyone to be searched at any time in any place for no reason whatsoever
Someone tried to persuade me that 1984 was written about USSR.
Here we have a tradition of checking papers by Militia in the streets, but I look Slavic and rarely am checked (only when deadly drunk). But if any Militia "warrior" will say anything like that to me and try to check my possessions - I'll just take my pen and write down his badge number. Usually they salute and say sorry for disturbing.
I don't mind showing my passport or Academy of Science pass, usually it's all, but I'll get really ugly if they'll try to check my bag and pockets. I mean - I'll obey all orders, but later they'll regret it, I know my rights. So far I have interfered when Militia warriors tried to "check" some people who didn't look like "terrorists" to me, it's scary only for the first time when you do it. Just come and ask "Anything wrong here, comrade?".
Did that guy get just searched in the station platform? Not in a line police department? Without two witnesses?!
If such thing happens in Moscow Metro - you just call 02 (Militia number), ask an operator to connect you with internal security, explain what happens, they check video-recordings at the place and time you said - and voila. Someone gets severe problems.
Here we also had Metro bombings, plane bombings, train bombings, and other ugly things like terrorists holding a maternity hospital for ransom, but it doesn't mean that any semi-literate law-enforcement "warrior" has the right to search law-abiding people in the streets.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Someone tried to persuade me that 1984 was written about USSR.
Try "...was written about the problems communism presented the free world at the time" and it will start making sense. The USSR so to speak, was not the issue.
Tumor
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Originally posted by Tumor
Try "...was written about the problems communism presented the free world at the time" and it will start making sense. The USSR so to speak, was not the issue.
JFYI: Orwell was a Communist himself. Problems created by Communism were only fighting Oceanian regime that oppressed it's citizens.
Did you read 1984 yourself? Or just quoting "1984 for dummies"? I really like it when people tell me to read Orwell and don't understand when I use words like "newspeak" in the same thread.
What I read here sometimes - was absolutely impossible in "totalitarian" USSR. That's why I say I prefer totalitarism to what you guys call "democracy".
All your "fighting for democracy" is killing each other for the regime when some morons will be able to search your pockets and bags right in the subway platform, just because they feel like doing so. /*yes i exaggerate here*/
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/4926246.stm
This is disgusting. Congratulations England, you are now a nation of pathetic servile *****es.
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Originally posted by TalonX
A constitution against unlawful search....like a random road block.....
Yeah but just try and refuse that search and see what kinda response you get.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/4926246.stm
This is disgusting. Congratulations England, you are now a nation of pathetic servile *****es.
I'm not sure I get your point - in what way does searching people prior to boarding a train differ from searching people prior to boarding a plane?
There is a problem with knife crime in much of the UK and this seems a reasonable step to combat it. If you don't like it, no-one's compelling you to get on the privately owned and operated train.
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Perhaps it was this part that got him...
"The scanners are portable and police will use them in various sites across the city to randomly search rail passengers and people on the streets."
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Originally posted by TalonX
A constitution against unlawful search....like a random road block.....
I'd have to agree, EXCEPT this happened in London. What constitution?:noid
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the cops in my town call blacks "standard bolos" they call hispanics "the other bolos" and that would be the black and hispanic cops as well. both types of bolos are ramdomly pulled over searched etc, while this is clearly profiling and I'm against it we have had three LEOs killed out of four shot in the last six months in neighboring broward county. only one was by a white guy and he was a gutter guinea.
the town of miami gardens is going to start it's own police department (they have been using the county deputies) and with the town of opa-locka (where my shop is located) are recruiting white officers from all over the country, typically 50 ish dudes that are moving to sunny florida after retiring. I think these guys are in for a wake up call as they try to respectfully approach either bolo type during routine stops. once the shooting starts as often does I hope they are proficient with their firearms. while both types of bolos are typically not very good shots they don't hesitate to throw down. I think we will see more black tape on badges here for a long time if they pursue this type of recruitment with sugar coating. they have toured some of these prospects everywhere except the neighbors where they will be working.
I can tell you from years of experience from being within the community that the only thing these guys respect is your power and your willingness to use it. if you flinch you're @#*&ed.
I don't know how you have a free and open society without each individual being responsible for their personal behavior as well as their personal safety. the minute you expect the government to provide for your security you also relinquish your freedom.
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Originally posted by storch
I don't know how you have a free and open society without each individual being responsible for their personal behavior as well as their personal safety. the minute you expect the government to provide for your security you also relinquish your freedom.
Storch, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement more than any other I've seen on this forum. I Philly, we can't even count on the "security" provided by the government. In the last month alone, we have had 3 police officers shot and killed ( I believe we finally caught the first one down in your neck of the woods), and just last night, suspects in a getaway car from an armed robbery tried to run over another pair of cops.
And the bleeding hearts want my weapons? Again I say, from my cold dead hand, they may take it.
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Luckily he wasn't Brazilian...they usually get a bullet in the head straight away
Tronsky
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Originally posted by -tronski-
Luckily he wasn't Brazilian...they usually get a bullet in the head straight away
Tronsky
I've lived in brasil and I can promise you that if you have the wherewithall you can shoot people all day long for sport and just pay for the tag.
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not just in philly but anywhere. even in the most closed of societies policework by it's very nature is reactive.
there is no way anyone can tell what an individual's intent may be until it is too late therefore we are either proactive in our personal security or potential victims.
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. the minute you expect the government to provide for your security you also relinquish your freedom. [/B]
:aok
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boroda... I read 1984 and to me it seemed the reverse of America, ayn rand and individualism but seemed the very embodiment of radical socialism.
did you ever do a search for jack london and his home in glenn ellen?
lazs
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Originally posted by Boroda
...snip
Just come and ask "Anything wrong here, comrade?"
...snip
Do you really say "comrade"?
I thought they only said that in the movies.
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Originally posted by Yknurd
Do you really say "comrade"?
I thought they only said that in the movies.
Asking a Militia warrior it's common to say "comrade sergeant" (tovarisch serzhant), depends on a rank.
In the Armed Forces "tovarisch" (comrade) is still an official form of address.
In Russian we don't have anything like "sir", we can say "gospodin" (mister, or, closer - "master"), but it sounds quite comic, plus I don't want to call anyone my "master". Saying "grazhdanin" (citizen) is sometimes used between like convinced criminals and law-enforcement, they are not comrades ;) so I'll not use this word asking a Militia man ;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... I read 1984 and to me it seemed the reverse of America, ayn rand and individualism but seemed the very embodiment of radical socialism.
Strange, but USSR was moving towards liberalisation and more individual rights, while West moved in opposite direction... We have met around 1990 I think :(
I have read some opinions on Ayn Rand from people who can't be called "commies" or even "socialists", and her ideas sound inhuman to me, sorry.
Originally posted by lazs2
did you ever do a search for jack london and his home in glenn ellen?
I don't think I have read his biography, it wasn't mentioned widely in the media, like many other things, I think that there was no problem finding any info about him. Will look at the biographical article in my 8-volume collection tonight.
Frankly speaking - Jack London's bio isn't inside my circle of interests right now.
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Why don't you read some of her writings instead of taking hearsay for granted?
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Originally posted by moot
Why don't you read some of her writings instead of taking hearsay for granted?
Some 1000 pages novel? No thanks. I'll stick with "Ayn Rand for dummies".
Just checked online book-stores, Russian hard cover edition of "Atlant" in 3 volumes is sold for /*drumroll!!!*/ 10600rr (over $400US) a volume!!!
I find it ****ing awesome. An essence of capitalism. Awesome.
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boroda.. you don't have to read her novels to read her writings... there are websites that reproduce her writings on a variety of subjects... she was the most humanistic person I can think of.. She felt that the individuals freedom was all important.. as do I.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/r/rand.htm
here is a simple place to start...easy reading. any search will uncover much more without ever touching one of her novels of fiction.
lazs
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Lasz, I just found what we have available in Russian in printed form. I'll try to look for electronic versions of her writings, there must be some, she is an icon for our brain-dead liberals, so they should be on the net.
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boroda... I am not sure what you mean. you are on this board and you speak and read almost flawless english..
Can't you just follow the links that I have given? in this case.. all it does is take you to sites that quote some of ayn's works of non fiction.
If your research into your sources is as incomplete as the horrible jack london stuff..
Well... I would say that you are a willing victim of censorship and propoganda.
can you not go to the sites linked?
lazs
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The searches are because of this, and i guess to try and have a visible deterrent to would be suicide bombers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings
Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?
Why not bring up some of the security practices in Israel?
The regularity of these things is usually linked to the current security threat level. They do searches entering some buildings too when the threat level is high.
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Originally posted by Furball
The searches are because of this, and i guess to try and have a visible deterrent to would be suicide bombers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings
Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?
Why not bring up some of the security practices in Israel?
The regularity of these things is usually linked to the current security threat level. They do searches entering some buildings too when the threat level is high.
You think searching people coming out that specifically do not meet the profile of suicide bombers is going to work?
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Originally posted by Furball
The searches are because of this, and i guess to try and have a visible deterrent to would be suicide bombers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings
Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?
Why not bring up some of the security practices in Israel?
The regularity of these things is usually linked to the current security threat level. They do searches entering some buildings too when the threat level is high.
As if other countries don't suffer from terrorist attacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_apartment_bombings - just a small episode in our war.
Using metal detector frames is quite different from searching someone in the street without proper procedure that involves witnesses and protocol.
You guys, if you really want to fight terrorism, first have to explain your authorities that they have to extradite convinced terrorists that they host now.
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... I am not sure what you mean. you are on this board and you speak and read almost flawless english..
Can't you just follow the links that I have given? in this case.. all it does is take you to sites that quote some of ayn's works of non fiction.
Lazs, thank you for compliments about my English, but I read at least 50 pages an hour in Russian, and reading English texts from the screen is uncomfortable for me :(
Originally posted by lazs2
If your research into your sources is as incomplete as the horrible jack london stuff..
Well... I would say that you are a willing victim of censorship and propoganda.
can you not go to the sites linked?
I have checked London's bio that I have (published in 1954), they didn't mention what you asked me about. An article focuses on literature, but some sentences are amazing if you remember our discussion. They mentioned his late novels as "unnatural and escapistic happy ends" of "going back to the land". And they said that London never was a true Socialist, and accused him of bourgeois individualism!!! :)
Again, I am sure that all the things you said are described in "Life of Outstanding People" series book on London. Such information wasn't censored, it simply wasn't in mainstream media and schoolbooks. You could easily find it. Like 99.9% of Americans don't know anything about Moscow apartment bombings of 1999 (see my Wiki link above), and this information isn't censored in the West.
I'll look at your links, probably later. I bookmarked it.
Just curious, thinking of people who's works influenced me and probably contradict Ayn Rand. Have you ever heard of Lev Gumilev? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Gumilev
Hmmm just have read that article - very "shallow" :(
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Originally posted by Furball
The searches are because of this, and i guess to try and have a visible deterrent to would be suicide bombers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings
Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?
Why not bring up some of the security practices in Israel?
The regularity of these things is usually linked to the current security threat level. They do searches entering some buildings too when the threat level is high.
Oh c'mon. There's absolutely nothing what could justify commitment of any country, anywhere, in anytime, to such Orwellian measures.
If this is result of your "War On Terror", then you've already lost big time (not that here is any better).
Oh, and pointing finger with "they did it too" is retarded...
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Originally posted by Furball
Maybe if people were blowing themselves up on your trains and buses you would have something similar, Vulcan & Thrawn?
Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis
The crisis happened, we dealt with it, we moved on.
Make sure you have your mandatory identity papers read Furball.
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6055964.html
I'm sorry to see the motherland turn into such a nation of sheep.
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boroda.. oddly.. I have heard of him.. he is mentioned in some of the non fiction works of ayn rand (as I recall).
obviously, I am oversimplifying here but.. he is using racism as an excuse to take away individual freedom... as if a huge and powerful socialist government could wipe out racism.
no government, including capitalistic ones can wipe out racism.. the best we can hope for is individualism that is protected by a strong bill of rights.
all government uses racism as an excuse to further their power.
just as terror or.. threat of terror, is used to take away individual liberties.. for illegal search and seizure for instance.. to use military to attack groups of citizens.. as in waco for instance.
Libertarianism is a great start but falls short of individualism.. think of libertarianism as individualism light.. think of individualists as less wimpy libertarians.
There is no excuse for socialism. if the country won't support individualism (and I don't think that is possible) then leave that country or part of it. it is not worth having.. how is the end justifying the means working in such a case? live like a slave in a terrible land that won't support you? You don't try to grow crops in the desert. you don't try to have a good life in the permafrost.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. oddly.. I have heard of him.. he is mentioned in some of the non fiction works of ayn rand (as I recall).
obviously, I am oversimplifying here but.. he is using racism as an excuse to take away individual freedom... as if a huge and powerful socialist government could wipe out racism.
no government, including capitalistic ones can wipe out racism.. the best we can hope for is individualism that is protected by a strong bill of rights.
all government uses racism as an excuse to further their power.
Well, racism is the last thing Lev Gumilev can be accused of. Maybe you have read about his Father, Nikolay, he's like a Russian Kipling.
Accusing Lev Gumilev of antisemitism is pretty silly. He's just describing facts, and makes conclusions that are quite obvious. Khazars existed, and were destroyed by Sviatoslaw, father of prince Vladimir. Waging a war on a country that took "dannegeld" (sp?) from Kiev doesn't depend on religion of their elite.
Gumilev's theory may be called a "historical existencialism". He also tried to explain ethnic development with changing natural conditions, both man-induced or not.
A historian who saw Mongols as Russian allies, not only as murdering invaders can't be a racist.
Originally posted by lazs2
just as terror or.. threat of terror, is used to take away individual liberties.. for illegal search and seizure for instance.. to use military to attack groups of citizens.. as in waco for instance.
Libertarianism is a great start but falls short of individualism.. think of libertarianism as individualism light.. think of individualists as less wimpy libertarians.
There is no excuse for socialism. if the country won't support individualism (and I don't think that is possible) then leave that country or part of it. it is not worth having.. how is the end justifying the means working in such a case? live like a slave in a terrible land that won't support you? You don't try to grow crops in the desert. you don't try to have a good life in the permafrost.
Lazs, you contradict historical facts here. My country reached it's power and prosperity under Socialism, and Capitalism brings nothing but suffering, decay and starvation.
BTW, I think you'll like Lenin's definition of "state": it's a system of suppressing a personality. Anything else is just a "cosmetic" difference between states.
There are some really interesting books that I don't think were translated into English. Like Prokhorov's "Russian model of administration", it explains a lot. Russian system operates in extra-large scale (regime, Czar or Politburo), and in extra-small scale: a community that is self-administrated inside and usually fights with Big Brother. Rational form of it is when Big Brother doesn't interfere inside a community, and issues tasks that community finds easier to implement then to sabotage. OTOH community usually understands that such tasks are a matter of survival as a nation (that allows community's existence), and finds it own ways to act in emergencies. Emergencies are a natural state to make system effective, in relative prosperity system degrades quickly. I hope you can see irony of it.
BTW, Ayn Rand was a Jew from Russia. Jews were not involved into a system I described above, as well as other national minorities, until the Revolution. I hope you understand why.
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not sure we are understanding each other. I was not saying he was a racist.. just the reverse in fact. I did not accuse him of antisemitism either.
I don't see how capitalism has caused suffering.. england and the US have been two of the most prosperous countries in the world under the system with very high standards of living.
I also do not understand why jews were not involved in the system you describe.
I believe that communism was always doomed in russia. I believe that it could not be sustained and that history proves me right. I believe people need to think they can move up in the world through hard work or they simply pretend to work and the government pretends to pay em... as the old saying goes.
communism is apathy and the destruction of hope to me. perhaps it is because I never have had to endure it but... it would crush me. ayn rand and many others who fled communism have compared living under both capitalism and communism and they all say about the same thing.
lazs
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My father went to Russia in the late 80s and early 90s, once for 1 year at a time, to work in a number of different microanalysis labs, including one next to the Baikal lake, in Moscow, and others I can't remember. He brought back a ton of communist memorabilia (pins of lenin, military officers' caps, money bills and coins, etc) and a lot of stories.
He said it wasn't too bad, but the state was everywhere. He was followed, from the customs all the way to his hotel room. Twice the person who happened to be following him came into the room. The first time he woke up as he was already looking through his luggage. The second time he was ready and had to point a gun at the guy for him to retreat.
There was a lot of partying (orgies apparently not taboo at all)... People seemed happy, but that's probably not a guarantee of anything, considering how masses of people can be conditioned to mediocre or worse lifestyles and/or standards of living. The state was taboo.
There is nothing more unfair and absurd than to take from someone the fruits of his labor. It's Sisyphus ad nauseum.
Capitalism is indeed a blind and pitiless survival of the fitest. But I and anyont with a minimum of lucidity wouldn't have it any other way.. You only get as good as you give. The better you treat yourself, the better work repays you. I personaly don't want others to pay for my expenses or needs, the same way I wouldn't consider it fair for someone to take what I earned on my own.
It would be such a miserable thing as you say Boroda, if not for the fact that health and professional success are a positive feedback loop. The only common weakness of capitalism that I see is people abusing others (e.g. outsmarting them into bankrupcy) or themselves (not having the drive to turn adversity into success).
But these are human nature, not capitalism's doing. Capitalism just highlights these human flaws.
You might say that this has nothing to do with communism, like you have many times already, not just to me... If so, then where does true Communism as you knew it stand, relative to this? Does it allow or intend to take from people what they've worked for? Does it not choose for an individual what he should do?
Not to be confused with what can seem like the "market"'s initial difficulty to tame, that is, taking care of yourself in a capitalistic free for all...
"No one's gonna give it to ya.. You have to take it."
Apologies for the freakin derail Vulcan. :p
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moot... that is about how I feel about it. and.. with the same end result... I wouldn't have it any other way. I could not live with someone looking over my shoulder. I would do something stupid.. or.. I would try to escape.
Here.. I have talked to people who will not work. their excuse is.. "it is easy for you but... I really can't get up in the morning...it is just impossible for me."
I resent that any of my tax dollar goes to these people. why should it? Is supporting this person really compassion?
lazs