Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Thing on November 15, 2007, 03:07:54 AM
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Hey everyone
To my fellow jug pilots in the house. Been having a hard time with rolling scissors in the jug. Should I drop a notch of flaps before executing the scissors? I know scissors has alot to do with timing but when I have a bogey on my six I'm not sure at what distance to execute the maneuver.
Thank you for letting me pick your brains
Thing :aok
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HI Thing.
my opinion is that with an enemy on your six you would want to evaluate (quickly - lol) your relative speeds before starting a rolling scissor.
First you need to judge their speed. Are they faster than you? are they slower? Are they co-speed?
Enemy Faster - This is pefrect for your rolling scissors. Providing you have 600+yrds seperation to work with you will be able to 'drag' the enemy round in a tight flat turn and almost instantly you will be closing that gap as they gain on you. With correct timing you now can transition between the flat turn and a barrel roll to hopefully force a quick overshoot. As for flaps, it will be different every time. If you are both holding alot of speed you may not need the flaps but often dropping a notch or two at the top of your barrel roll will decelerate your aircraft a great deal more than flaps up as well as making your finer control as the speed drops off.
Enemy Slower - This is the worst time to try a rolling scissors in the P47. the enemy will almost certainly get off the throttle and saddle up if you start trying to scissor from a position of greater speed. This is the time to make use of the Jug's huge mass and dive away, gain some seperation and re-think your options. Another option would be to try and 'rope' the enemy with a series of spiral climbs using alot of flaps to hang high long enough, unfortunately most aircraft will easily outclimb the Jug so this is a risky business.
Enemy Co-speed - This will happen alot. You are trailing a spit16 at 800yrds and you both are going 300mph.
In this situation flaps are most usefull for deceleration. Your goal now is to trick your enemy into an overshoot. A usefull method is to dive and make them chase you. Once you have the enemy thinking you are running away you can drop your flaps as much as possible and attempt to barrel roll around them for an overshoot, or to start a rolling scissor fight.
In the Jug you are a big target, not only that but you have alot of weight giving you huge momentum. Early throttle work and quick kills are you forte.
You do not want to be engaging in a rolling scissor fight with most of the planeset, what you want to do is get in your enemy's head from the start and trick them into losing. you need to make your move, take them by surprise, and kill them all in the same 10 seconds.
Prolonged engagements of any kind do not lean in the P47's favour as a general rule.
In the link below you can see exactly what i mean by 'trick your enemy and kill them as FAST as possible'. I'm not in a p47 but infact something far more vulnerable and heavy. Check the flaps use, minimal if at all, each encounter will be different though.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/mossrevla7.ahf
hope i made sense, good hunting.
S!
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Excellent post Bat
Thank you :D
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I never get tired of seeing that move. Excellent work, bat.
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ta Sim, just getting lucky and not saving the films where things dont work so well helps. there is nothing special about me, if i can do this anyone can. if i post a film im only trying to nudge people towards killing me even more frequently and painfully.
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I can see that move done to me all the time & even when the jug, hog, or whatever seem to be barely moving, I just can't hit the sucker. Its like you guys know the exact angle that the bad guy needs to take a shot & deny it & gracefully roll under & remove my tail feathers. It even gets in my head when I start to engage & I think I hope this isn't Batfink or Yucca, & then as I line up on that nice juicy target, it banks into a steep angle just as I'm about to fire, & before that lump drops from my throat to my to feet I feel the sensation of hot lead in my tail. Hats off to you guys, I'm amazed @ what you can do with those "heavy" planes. Just imagine my anxiety when coming upon one of you when you are in something like a KI-84....OMG....lol Woz30 aka Sidious
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Originally posted by WOZ30BAT
Its like you guys know the exact angle that the bad guy needs to take a shot & deny it & gracefully roll under & remove my tail feathers
That is the case. The hard part is learning to take what you see from your cockpit, and translating that into *know* what to do next. That is one point where watching other people's films can help, because you can see what they saw.
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Originally posted by Murdr
...you can see what they saw.
I've absolutely found that films are a great way to learn.
Question about this. When I watch films, the views seem to always be the default ones. Is there any way that saved views, ones that lean around obstructions and so forth, can be incorporated into the film viewer?
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Originally posted by Simaril
I've absolutely found that films are a great way to learn.
Question about this. When I watch films, the views seem to always be the default ones. Is there any way that saved views, ones that lean around obstructions and so forth, can be incorporated into the film viewer?
Yes, exactly the same method you can do in the game. (arrows, page up/down, f10 to save). The only catch is you only get 1 set of head positions for playback, so you may have to adjust them depending on the plane type you are viewing the film from.
Actually, I put that tip in for the load-up tips. Hopefully the load-up tips will be updated after the display issues are fixed.
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what do you have to do to play films posted here, I alway get the message that I need something I don't have to play them off the links
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Originally posted by flatiron1
what do you have to do to play films posted here, I alway get the message that I need something I don't have to play them off the links
You have to use the AH film viewer. The exe file is in the same folder as AH game file. You should have start icon under start/programs/aces high
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If its still up..theres a film of RedTop and JanneK....Jug and 109...I think it has some scissors in it. Its under this topic/forum help and training as well.
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http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219213
right here
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Originally posted by WOZ30BAT
I can see that move done to me all the time & even when the jug, hog, or whatever seem to be barely moving, I just can't hit the sucker. Its like you guys know the exact angle that the bad guy needs to take a shot & deny it & gracefully roll under & remove my tail feathers.
You can't give away all the credit to the defender though, in order for that maneuver to work the guy making the attack has to make mistakes. And in the film posted earlier you notice that the attacker maneuvers as though he intended to fly in front of the defender and concede a shot. Of course he didn't do it on purpose, it is just what happens to new players who always pull into their adversary regardless of the relative energy state.
One thing a new player must learn to visualize in their mind, is that if they are faster than their opponent and turn into (in the same plane of motion) them, they will overshoot their adversaries flight path, and if they continue to turn, they will overshoot their adversaries 3-9 line and concede a shot. That's all that has happened in the film posted earlier. Here is a screen shot from that film:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Overshoot.jpg)
At point 1 in that image, the La7 has a decisive advantage. Flown correctly that advantage would lead to a kill. However, the La7 driver has decided to press for a shot at what is an inevitable flight path overshoot. Not the best choice, but not necessarily a mistake either. So at point 2 the flight path overshoot happens as expected, and here is where things really go wrong for the attacker.
At this point the attacker still has recovery options, but instead decides to hold his turn, probably because he can't think of anything else to do, and well, anything that makes the screen fade to black has to be doing some good, right? :)
So, the slower defender only needs to do a simple reversal to get the shot at point 3, the attacker is pulling all the G and doing all the real work. The hardest part for the defender is making the shot.
It was a great shot, but only simple BFM, made possible by a very poorly executed attack. With equal pilots, the victory goes to the one with the energy advantage.
Hope that helps,
Badboy
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wow good post badboy, thanks!
as you mentioned, mistakes have to be made for this to work smoothly for the defender.
One very important part though is to recognise when you are against this type of enemy and take full advantage of it. Also to recognise when you are VS a more skilled opponent, and as such to step up your defence a notch.
as ever, your diagrams are top draw, thanks again.
S!
edit: there are also other forms of overshoot and defensive moves i know of that DO NOT rely on the attacker making mistakes. It is not always the attackers mistakes that can lose the fight, sometimes they can do everything right and still the defender can win in one move.
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Murdr I read your article on scissors defense and you suggest to slow down and do a slow follow. I usually fly a jug and I find if I get too slow I'm usually dead meat.
What do you suggest when flying a jug as a good scissor defense. A slow follow?
Thanks
Thing
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As a general rule the best scissors defense is simply denial. It is not possible for a defender to force a scissors under any circumstance IMO. A scissor is a neg E defense designed to force an overshoot from an enemy intent on a guns attack/solution. Lets remove any intent to shoot....
If your faster and somewhere in the cons rear hemisphere and he break turns your initial though should be to maintain both an energy advantage and an angular advantage...so invariably your 1st move is "up"...this can take the form of a hi yoyo a true climb or a form of lag roll with a vertical component. The attempt to initiate a rolling scissor invariably is based on crossed lift vectors. The con usually in a nose low turn intnet on drawing a shot...the bogie to achieve a shot has to actually orient his lift vector even lower...creating the ability for the defender to "roll" his lift vector around the attacker with enough E to secure a shot window.
The real issue is to utilize vertical displacement to conserve E, maximize angular retention and maintain the initiative. A properly executed energy attack profile is a natural scissor defense. The scissor is a defensive move based on poor E and AoA management by the aggressor.