Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tac on November 16, 2007, 06:42:21 PM
-
An excellent student video. Must watch.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o&NR=1
-
That was good.
-
Interesting but I'm not sure I got the point, if there was one.
-
Its something I thought of a lot when I was taking college classes Akiron.
Today we have a lot of technology but the way classes are taught is still by gathering a bunch of people, charging them a retarded amount of money for textbooks that are hardly used in class, forcing them to take courses which have absolutely nothing to do with their declared major and all of this is done in what is literally, medieval style lecture classrooms.
Always thought then that maybe there was a better way to do things. The video just shows some of the elements that make today's classroom system obsolete in the internet age.
-
3 of my 5 college classes are conducted ONLINE.
It's so convenient:)
-
Originally posted by Tac
Its something I thought of a lot when I was taking college classes Akiron.
Today we have a lot of technology but the way classes are taught is still by gathering a bunch of people, charging them a retarded amount of money for textbooks that are hardly used in class, forcing them to take courses which have absolutely nothing to do with their declared major and all of this is done in what is literally, medieval style lecture classrooms.
Always thought then that maybe there was a better way to do things. The video just shows some of the elements that make today's classroom system obsolete in the internet age.
I wonder if Podcasting (with video) the lessons will do the trick :)
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Interesting but I'm not sure I got the point, if there was one.
You might consider the differences between commercial training courses and many traditional lecture based courses.
-
The problems of life have'nt changed...its just that the internet has allowed more people to whine about it.
-
Nicely made film, kudos for that... but the message I got from watching this is the students seemed disappointed or even bored. The medieval style classroom is not that bad, if given a chance. Some professors are actually pretty darn interesting. I remember when having a Texas Instrument calculator with the red LED numerals was cool. Not long before that slide rules were used, and yes, slide rule was taught in Chemistry class, though we could use a calculator if we had one.
It seems the students in this video bringing computers to class are playing on them and not working. They're not paying attention to the teacher during class, for various reasons, hence they are missing information they will be tested on. A telling statement one of the students displayed, that only 18% of the professors knew their name, indicates they're not working hard enough (or the professor would probably know their name.) If they are looking for something more from class, what they get out of it is what they put into it. On the other hand, this video could also be seen as a protest against technology, that the students are being distracted by the computer and therefore aren't learning anything. It could be seen as a call for not allowing computers in class. They probably are a distraction to serious students.
I studied when I went to college. A lot. I considered students who brought a tape recorder to be lazy. I wrote every word the professor said, just about. I usually had about 20 pages of notes for each class. I found that writing down the lecture helped me remember the context, which was useful for studying as well as for understanding and learning. Books were expensive, but I wrote in the margins and usually kept the books for future reference. Some I lost in a house fire unfortunately. I wish I had them today, 30 years later.
I remember when I was a freshman, my English Comp teacher told the class that when we were all graduated from college and had a degree, what we learned there would be useful at cocktail parties, so we would appear educated among our peers. That statement bewildered me at the time, but it makes sense I guess. One thing for sure is computer lingo is an adverse influence on the English language, especially spelling.
If I returned to college I don't think I would be able to put in the work I did when I was young. I always tried for an A, even if I didn't always make one.
Les
-
So what is it about the way lectures are taught in the US that is so bad? From what i got from the video is that todays students don't enjoy learning/find it engaging/find it relevant to them.
Seriously i don't know how higher education is taught in the US, what is so poor about it?
This is how i study for my degree:
The slides the lecturer will be using will be online before the lecture and i print them off. The lecturer will usually give a powerpoint presentation lasting an hour, during which i'll annotate on my print out. When i get home i'll copy the notes up and throw them in a folder. Sometimes i'll read a few papers for extra reading, but it's a rare thing. I'll usually leave that until i decide what i'll concentrate on for the exam.
I don't get a choice of modules i'm doing either, but they're all relevant to my degree. Often they'll overlap in certain areas. Most other degrees you can choose to do whatever you want for one module a semester.
About books- i bought 4 in my first year for about 30-50 quid each. Never used them once! I find it easier/quicker to look at papers online and they're much more up to date.
I can think of only 1 guy who brings a laptop to lectures. Last time i got to look over his shoulder all he did for the whole hour was looking at world of warcraft stuff. If he wants to get poor grade it's up to him.
-
Online classes or the medieval lecture style classrooms (even with a fun teacher using unconventional visual aids) are not exactly what I'd consider a good learning enviroment.
Online courses lack the human element..of having someone there to interact with you or answer questions or even show you a new perspective on things based on their experiences. lecture style classes have that but they take away the student's ability to be in what I call a 'active learning'... but because you're listening to someone speak to 50+ other students besides you and there is no time for the teacher to stop and answer every single student's questions..so you become a passive learner. Those rare 'cool/good' teachers only skim the line between active and passive learning but it is still mostly passive. Learning in the lecture classroom is like a religion.. you take in what you listen, memorize it and regurgitate it on command (tests).
If I could design the way colleges teach, I would combine elements of the old system that work and add features that today's technology allow for.
For example:
Old system elements retained:
-Classrooms. Students do need to have a teacher and other students around them for a quality learning enviroment. New perspectives and learning about the experiences of others are as important as the subject being learned.
-Labs. Though only some courses today have the need for labs or 'hands-on' classrooms, I would increase the ratio of labs for all courses to be something akin to 2 lectures & 1 lab. Hands-on learning dramatically increases the understanding of any subject being taught.
Tech add-ons:
- Remove the need for 'physical' textbooks and notebooks. All texts should be available in digital format, all student work is handed in, in digital format.
*this not only significantly reduces cost of education since the cost of publishing 500+ page textbooks every semester is not passed onto the student. It also introduces students into a more work-related enviroment where MS office suite / email / computers are the medium of choice rather than paper.
- Every student is given a Tablet PC. small demo of what im talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8s59ZBujnE&feature=related
*this is not only easy for the student as you only carry around the 1 tablet pc and lowers their educational costs (1 tablet pc now = $1000+ but it lasts all 4 years of college. Compared to the $500 or so cost of textbooks per semester, thats CHEAP) but also opens the features below.
- College 'Active Learning' Network
a- with every classroom having its own wireless LAN, the teacher can either project his own tablet onto a wall or students can choose to display the visual on their tablets.
*im sure teachers can come up with a lot of neat ways to teach their classes taking advantage of this system.
b- Just like there are tech support lines and customer service in the real world, the college would have online tutors available to students. Unlike student-student tutors, this staff is composed of teachers who instead of being scheduled to teach a classroom, are scheduled to be online assistance for the students.
*this allows the students to have their own on-demand tutor should they need help with a certain part of a subject that the lecturing teacher did not clarify (or that the student did not stop the teacher to ask because they thought it wasnt an important question..you know how it is..you dont want to stop the class every 10 minutes with little questions). The neat thing of this is... they can access the tutors WHILE in class or from home via the internet.
- Grading system and term paper/presentation system will also need to be changed ..how im not sure, I havent thought about that.
-
Traditional college is completely antiquated. Professors put fragmented bits of information into powerpoint presentations, then simply read aloud what the slides say. Its the textbooks that really have the knowledge, and it's the textbooks that puts that knowledge forth in a logical, concise manner.
As it is right now, its up to the individual to put forth an effort to educate themselves. For the most part, college will not provide an education for a person. It is simply there to provide certification (a degree).
Now I can say that a few of my professors have really influenced my life. However, they were providing advice and information on things outside of what was being tested.
If I had a chance to revamp the college system, heres how I would do it. First I would make the textbook the main source of study. Students would have assigned, allotted time each day for reading and working the problems. Secondly, I would still have a classroom setting. It would be optional to attend. But the class would not be taught by professors. It would be taught by instructors who have specific training in teaching. They would cover the main topics in the textbook, along with the general material that would be tested. This would provide the multi-layering that is needed in the learning process. The tests would be held on campus, and a study guide would be provided with more detailed information on what is going to be on the test.
-
"If I had a chance to revamp the college system, heres how I would do it. First I would make the textbook the main source of study. Students would have assigned, allotted time each day for reading and working the problems. Secondly, I would still have a classroom setting. It would be optional to attend. But the class would not be taught by professors. It would be taught by instructors who have specific training in teaching. They would cover the main topics in the textbook, along with the general material that would be tested. This would provide the multi-layering that is needed in the learning process. The tests would be held on campus, and a study guide would be provided with more detailed information on what is going to be on the test."
umm.. thats the system used today except classroom attendance is mandatory and you are expected to use the textbook outside of class as well (homework). Some schools have been using the system you describe as a special approach to a degree.. I think its called interdisciplinary approach. You can literally take the course at your own pace using textbooks and online courses and attending a regular class or two if you wish.. the idea is that the student becomes responsible for learning the material and the college only administers the testing.
-
classrooms of the future
(http://www.zylch.net/cryspi/media/jacked_in.jpg)
-
The only way to REALLY learn anything is hands on. Apprentice programs are few and far between these days which is sad actually. I was able to take a residental and industrial wiring program when I was in high school and I jumped at it. It was a four hour class, half my school day and the teacher I had was a certified contractor electrician with his own buisness. I was required to get a state apprentice electrician license to take the class but I learned a ton during the two years I took it.
When I made the decision to become an electronics technician in the Coast Guard alot of what I had learned as an electrician apprentice helped me to learn the electronics aspect. Even though the Coast Guard sent me to school for 9 months to learn electronics much of that school was hands on the gear learning.
Now I've started my new job as a technical service technician for industrial security systems, CCTV systems, and audio/visual systems and once again I'm finding a steep learning curve. I have to learn a whole new language to be effective at my new job. A security zone, or partition isn't what I thought it was and inless you work in that industry you wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about if I started to describe what they are. Fortunately for me I've been teamed up with the lead technician at my company as his apprentice for the next 3 months. I'm going to learn it all hands on, and to be honest I wouldn't have it any other way.
You just can't learn all the things you need to know about anything by sitting in a classroom and listening to a lecture or reading a book. It's just not possible. That's why if I was running a buisness I'd hire someone with 4 years experiance related to the job and no college education over some kid straight out of college with a degree. The guy with 4 years under his belt knows more, and if I had to hire both of them, the guy with 4 years is going to get paid more.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
classrooms of the future
I'd peg that one as Facebook of the future.
I've sat courses where we spent most of the lectures copying someone's book from the blackboard to our notepads. I'd hate to think that particular practice still survives, but I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that it does.
-
I’ve had a grading theory that I’ve wanted to see put use, but modern grading systems make it nearly impossible to employ. Some educators place the majority of the overall grade on tests, others choose papers and projects and others lean on daily homework, weekly quizzes and/or attendance. Most educators sort of balance everything out somewhat. In my opinion, any system reflects learning and work for some students while simultaneously working against others whose strengths are not represented well by that particular grading system.
While I was a student at the University of Hawaii/HCC I witnessed a massive dropout rate in my program. I talked to some students who dropped out and nearly every one of them had the same problem: they blew a major test early on and realized that they stood a nearly impossible chance of passing the course no matter how well they did later on.
Here’s my grading theory: 60% of the overall grade is based on the area that each student does their best in (tests, papers and projects or daily homework, weekly quizzes and/or and attendance). 30% of the overall grade is based on the next best area for each student. 10% is based on their worst area. One student may be a great test taker, but poor writer, they could earn an A under this system. Another student in the same class could be a great writer or loves projects but always chokes on tests, this student also could earn an A under this system.
-
Wah wah wah. Boo ****ing hoo. Let's call the wambulance?
Always thought then that maybe there was a better way to do things. The video just shows some of the elements that make today's classroom system obsolete in the internet age.
Want to know why we still meet in classrooms to learn?
BECAUSE IT'S THE BEST ****ING WAY TO LEARN.
After much self studying, I've found out that book work, internet work, or online class work doesn't even hold a candle to the amount of stuff a person can teach you.
So what is it about the way lectures are taught in the US that is so bad? From what i got from the video is that todays students don't enjoy learning/find it engaging/find it relevant to them.
Seriously i don't know how higher education is taught in the US, what is so poor about it?
There is nothing poor about the education, other than the laziness of some students. There is a difference between finding it engaging, and they themselves being engaged.
The easiest way to not be bored with class is to be a part of it. Not just sit down and take notes.
Traditional college is completely antiquated. Professors put fragmented bits of information into powerpoint presentations, then simply read aloud what the slides say. Its the textbooks that really have the knowledge, and it's the textbooks that puts that knowledge forth in a logical, concise manner.
Absolutely false. A textbook can't teach. It can only be there. It is best used in a supplementary use. Hell, you might not even need to have it for the class.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wah wah wah. Boo ****ing hoo. Let's call the wambulance?
Want to know why we still meet in classrooms to learn?
BECAUSE IT'S THE BEST ****ING WAY TO LEARN.
After much self studying, I've found out that book work, internet work, or online class work doesn't even hold a candle to the amount of stuff a person can teach you.
Yep, thats why I say the human interaction in a classroom is still needed. However the lecture-style, paper-book dependent instruction method is not effective. With the tech we have today it can be so, so much better.
What I mean is not just sitting in a class with a Tablet PC and using the old method.. what I mean is me having my tablet PC that has ALL my textbooks and work ready for me to access it, to have access to a personal HUMAN online-tutor at any time during class or outside of it, with a teacher that does a hands-on class for every 2 'lecture' type classes.. and why not, a restructured system that allows students to truly follow the path to their careers rather than be stuck wasting time taking 'required courses' that have nothing to do with their intended majors. Most students today can shave off a whole year off their bachelor's degrees if they weren't stuck having to take humanities and retarded electives courses if they are aiming for electronic engineering. I doubt what they learn in mythology, british literature, sociology, intro to anthropology, etc classes help them figure out how electronics work.
-
Originally posted by Tac
Yep, thats why I say the human interaction in a classroom is still needed. However the lecture-style, paper-book dependent instruction method is not effective. With the tech we have today it can be so, so much better.
What I mean is not just sitting in a class with a Tablet PC and using the old method.. what I mean is me having my tablet PC that has ALL my textbooks and work ready for me to access it, to have access to a personal HUMAN online-tutor at any time during class or outside of it, with a teacher that does a hands-on class for every 2 'lecture' type classes.. and why not, a restructured system that allows students to truly follow the path to their careers rather than be stuck wasting time taking 'required courses' that have nothing to do with their intended majors. Most students today can shave off a whole year off their bachelor's degrees if they weren't stuck having to take humanities and retarded electives courses if they are aiming for electronic engineering. I doubt what they learn in mythology, british literature, sociology, intro to anthropology, etc classes help them figure out how electronics work.
I feel the humanities are important for after you know how electronics work and land a job. The ability to communicate effectively is always important, but there is a world outside of electronics, physics, chemistry that everyone lives in. The humanities help prepare a student for coping with and even enjoying a greater quality of life. Now I would agree that majoring in some liberal arts fields is not a money maker in and of itself, however knowing something about the humanities pays off at some point in life.
There is one humanity which I believe improves problem solving ability, and that is a practice of art, whether it be drawing, sculpture, music, working with clay. The more challenging the art, the more the right side of the brain develops. This translates directly to any kind of problem solving, and would serve a scientist as well as an artist. It develops the right brain, which is where the abstract lies, and where most subconscious working of difficult problems takes place. I would also think that literature engages the mind's eye in the abstract and develops imagination, an essential part of realizing an idea into reality. Some great scientists were artists, poets, and composers.
Les
-
The best way to learn something, which doesn't mean other ways aren't any good either, is to teach it.
Practice makes perfect.
And students who don't want to learn will never be a good measure of any teaching method... If they hold a sign saying they pay more attention to facebook or myspace than to their classes, that's the problem right there.
You'll never eat as much being spoon fed as you would cooking and eating on your own.
Idealy students would learn all on their own, with some tutorship from teachers, e.g. the way Leibniz and others did.
-
Originally posted by FiLtH
The problems of life have'nt changed...its just that the internet has allowed more people to whine about it.
Good call, bro :)