Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on November 20, 2007, 07:53:21 AM
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We'd started planning this hunting trip for Thanksgiving Week-end last July, as he began his hunter safety course and passed. Joined a local skeet & Trap club, began practicing on trap every other week-end for about 8 weeks. He got a new gun, new hunting clothes... and his grades were a struggle in the fall. He did get 2 A's, 2 B's, but also had 2 C's which *were* D's right before the quarter ended in early November. Last minute work bumped those D's up into the C range.
So, I'm checking his grades online last night, and he's failing Language & Arts class, 61% score. Granted, its early in the 2nd quarter, but this is no excuse as he just didn't do the work (or in this case, turn the assignment in on time) He's not dumb. He just doesn't do the work and procrastinates.
So I clipped his wings on the hunting trip. I'm bringing my younger son instead (who is doing great in school, but he will not hunt, just tag along). This devastated Gordon last night. I was really pissed. I probably overreacted, made him feel bad that all this planning and preparation was all for naught because of his lack of action in his school work.
I feel today like I was too tough on him, but dammit, I have high expectations, and for something as easy as just doing the work, turning it in, its not asking for much.
I told him he's got two days (by Wed) to see if he can pull out some sort of miracle and get that grade up above a 70% by Wed. Talk to the teacher, ask her what you can do to get it up by Wed.
He's so inconsistent...he'll get straight A's in any given subject then not turn in an assignment (with just about any excuse you can think of ) and drop that A average down to a C in one flail swoop. It just pisses me off to no end.
Think I was too tough on him?
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No Rip you did just right. Stick to your guns.
:aok
Mac
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That was me in school. I'd get As on all my classroom work and tests, and never do my homework. I got alot of Cs because of it. It carries through into life later on in the form of no discipline. I still suffer this day because of it with my business. I do great work, but Im slow at getting the paperwork done.
I had a loving family, but my mother and father divorced when I was 9. She re-married but no one was there to push me. Maybe if there had been, I would have better discipline in certain areas.
I dont have kids so I can't really give parenting advice. But I do remember being a kid. (still am in some ways) I think that you'd have to be careful not to favor one over the other. Ive read in other posts where you've praised your youngest and havent had too much to say about the oldest. If I picked that up from a couple of posts in a forum, you know he must think it. Just be careful not to discourage him and shut him out is all.
If it were me, again..Im childless...but I think I'd take him hunting but let him know that it was a close thing. Next time he wouldnt get the break. And he better start pulling the load or he will start losing privileges. Good luck with it. Above all else, love him.
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Sounds familiar.
Once when I was in school, my Dad bought tickets to see the Globetrotters. This was a much bigger deal in the '60's than it is today. I couldn't wait to go. Right before the game my grades arrived and I hadn't done my homework... Dad was pissed. He wanted to leave me home, but instead he took me to the game and for 2 hours he didn't miss an opportunity to tell me how hard those players had to work to get where they were, how much more dedicated they must be, and how I was headed for a job selling popcorn at the stadium instead of a successful career.... I hated that night.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
We'd started planning this hunting trip for Thanksgiving Week-end last July, as he began his hunter safety course and passed. Joined a local skeet & Trap club, began practicing on trap every other week-end for about 8 weeks. He got a new gun, new hunting clothes... and his grades were a struggle in the fall. He did get 2 A's, 2 B's, but also had 2 C's which *were* D's right before the quarter ended in early November. Last minute work bumped those D's up into the C range.
So, I'm checking his grades online last night, and he's failing Language & Arts class, 61% score. Granted, its early in the 2nd quarter, but this is no excuse as he just didn't do the work (or in this case, turn the assignment in on time) He's not dumb. He just doesn't do the work and procrastinates.
So I clipped his wings on the hunting trip. I'm bringing my younger son instead (who is doing great in school, but he will not hunt, just tag along). This devastated Gordon last night. I was really pissed. I probably overreacted, made him feel bad that all this planning and preparation was all for naught because of his lack of action in his school work.
I feel today like I was too tough on him, but dammit, I have high expectations, and for something as easy as just doing the work, turning it in, its not asking for much.
I told him he's got two days (by Wed) to see if he can pull out some sort of miracle and get that grade up above a 70% by Wed. Talk to the teacher, ask her what you can do to get it up by Wed.
He's so inconsistent...he'll get straight A's in any given subject then not turn in an assignment (with just about any excuse you can think of ) and drop that A average down to a C in one flail swoop. It just pisses me off to no end.
Think I was too tough on him?
Hell no you werent too tough on him.
IF it were me I would have done the same plus giving him a nose to nose R. Lee Ermey style face chewing complete with profanity to boot.
"When I want it to stick I give it to em loud and dirty.
that way they remember it"
"Excellence is standard, standard is substandard. And substandard will NOT be tolerated. THAT I assure you."
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Sounds familiar.
Once when I was in school, my Dad bought tickets to see the Globetrotters. This was a much bigger deal in the '60's than it is today. I couldn't wait to go. Right before the game my grades arrived and I hadn't done my homework... Dad was pissed. He wanted to leave me home, but instead he took me to the game and for 2 hours he didn't miss an opportunity to tell me how hard those players had to work to get where they were, how much more dedicated they must be, and how I was headed for a job selling popcorn at the stadium instead of a successful career.... I hated that night.
I have to use alittle self-psychology on this, I would probably do the same as your Dad...as a parent we sometimes feel that our little motivation talks are all for naught when we see the bad grades...so I've chosen to not take him at all, because I'd still be bitter and harping on him. Hindsite is 20-20 but perhaps your Dad should have left you at home instead.
I didn't sleep good at all last night. I'm still bitter today. I have to watch what I say to him because I can say stuff I don't really mean, that's meant to hurt, and he's still too young with a thin skin....
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I think I would take him along, but leave the gun at home.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Hell no you werent too tough on him.
IF it were me I would have done the same plus giving him a nose to nose R. Lee Ermey style face chewing complete with profanity to boot.
"When I want it to stick I give it to em loud and dirty.
that way they remember it"
"Excellence is standard, standard is substandard. And substandard will NOT be tolerated. THAT I assure you."
That was there as well. I grabbed him by the shirt and stuffed his face into mine and used my share of 4 letter words...it doesn't do any good though. That tactic has never been successful with him. He's a hard-headed one.
I really disappointed. I spend a helluva lot of my time working with him one-on-one with homework...the minute I let him go on his own, and monitor his own work and progress, this crap happens. :mad:
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I think I would take him along, but leave the gun at home.
Hmmmmmm....now there is an idea...I'll have to consider that.
I'm hoping he can pull something off within the next 48 hours too. I've not given up hope. He could still turn in the assignment and get 50% on it...50% is better than 0.
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Rip, you know your son better than anyone here. As a committed parent, you're the one who has to decide.
That said, its especially important for talented youths to learn that there are consequences for every behavior. Your boy is by all accounts exceptionally talented. That means he will get plenty of positive reinforcement, because much of what he does will merit reward. Think about how many young men turn irresponsible because they never learn that they can do wrong and that doing wrong does have negative effects on their lives and those around them.
You have many years ahead of you in your relationship with him, many opportunities much like the one you described here to reward him with pleasurable shared experiences.
FWIW, as an outsider I'd say you've done the right thing. The only thing you need to do now is proceed. Just make sure you resolve this for yourself as being in the past, and make damn sure your son understands that. Let him know what your expectations are from here forward, and that you forgive him. Make sure you find some way soon to show him that everything's OK between you. He will respect you for that and be thankful his dad cares.
My dos centavos :)
PS edit: MT's suggestion is definitely worth considering, especially if your son does some remediation in the meantime. You could actually add something positive by taking both boys along, guns cold, and show them what its like to hunt without killing. I can say as a well experienced hunter/killer that some of my most memorable hunts were times when I chose not to shoot, but rather just observed. 2 more cents ;)
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If it was my kid I would say it's pretty tough. My son works hard just to get B's so knowing he worked hard to get his grade to the 'B' level I would be happy with that.
Sounds like your son could do better if he worked a little harder but there is a fine line between positive motivation and creating a child who will just say **** it and not bother trying to please. I've been pushed to that point.
How old is he? Is he in a senior where his grades matter? In 5 years will a 65% make a difference? Why does he have to get all A's Rip? Does he go to school every day? Does he skip school and get into trouble? Does he do drugs? I guess what I'm saying is, Gordon sounds like a good kid. Why does he have to be perfect? Can't he just be a kid sometimes?
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Take him Rip, find something else to use as punishment. These times you spend with your kids are precious. You never know what tomorrow brings, take him, spend time together. Don't punish yourself
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Take him Rip, find something else to use as punishment. These times you spend with your kids are precious. You never know what tomorrow brings, take him, spend time together. Don't punish yourself
A close friend of mine went back for his High School reunion and a quick hunting trip last week. He had arrhythmia out of the blue which killed him leaving his stay at home wife and 3 young girls in tough shape. I'm not looking forward to the service.
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Rip...
Perhaps all the time he spent in preparation took away from his homework. Stick to your guns, while hunting is a great family sport, his schooling is more important at this time.
Just my 2 cents...... parenting is a tough job, Good Luck on whatever decision you make :aok
PS My youngest daughter (16) is a straight A student (she'll get 4 college credits this Junior year), active in school Band, brown belt in TaeKwonDo, and has a job. We have been getting offers from Colleges and Universities since her Sophmore year. Makes me tired keeping up with her lol.
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On one hand you did the right thing from a parents point of view, tough love is just what it it is, tough. However, on the other hand you spent all this time pumping him up with the safety course, trap shooting, equipment and the thought of going on this hunt. Were bad grades a stipulation for not going? Not taking him now will devastate him. When I was in high school I wasnt allowed to play football. I preferred baseball anyway and really enjoyed it. Since I was terrible in math, once I got the "D", it was off the team. Happened every year and I tried hard. Well, thirty years later I still havnt forgotten that, and am disappointed to this day. From his point of view, he may remember this and carry it around for the rest of his life, plus as I said, he will be devastated and it will be worse if the younger brother goes on his hunt.
You didnt say how old he is but I have already been there. My youngest was ten when he went through the safety course, used his birthday money and put a rifle on layaway at Walmart. Pumped him up with the hunt which was going to be his first hunt which happened to be for Elk. His grades where good, but I did run into this problem later which I dealt with in a similar matter. He got drawn for Antelope when he was fourteen here in AZ. Some guys put in for years and never get drawn. This was a hunt of a lifetime and he had bad grades. I caved in considering just what you are doing now, based on my "D" grade experience and let him go because I didnt want him to remember that about me.
Well "Dad", that first trip was the best hunting trip I have ever been on, and will ever have in my life. He got his Elk and I got to share in his excitement and happiness, plus to a ten year old "dad" helped him get his elk. He also worked very hard and got a very nice Antelope on the third morning of his hunt. And add another "best hunting trip of my life" to the list of others. And this was an exciting trip for Grandpa who tagged along.
Sorry for the ranting. You may think you are accomplishing something but in the long run you are going to hurt the relationship between you two that he may carry for years. Find another way to deal with the grades and use it that way. I had some pretty good fights with my youngest and we have really gotten into it on things, but today he is for the most part, he is very responsible, has good grades, stays away form drugs, and is looking forward to being a fireman. Guess I did something right. Maybe letting him go on a couple of hunting trips h elped him get where he is. Now he has some fantastic memories and some good stories that he can tell his kids about their grandpa and his own hunting trips.
And to end all this, you are seriously cheating yourself out of the excitement that he is going to have with his first hunt if he tags out. You will get a lot of mileage out of the story and showing all the pics at work. Enjoy the hunt with your son and let him enjoy the time with his father. In the long run the time is really short. Good luck on the hunt!!! :aok
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Culero, considerate posting sir. Good stuff contained within.
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Rip,
I think you did everything just fine. Your son learned that there are consequnces for not keeping up his grades. And as you can see, its just as hard on the parent as it is the child
When I was growing up, my grades were known by my folks long before I did. They all knew my Dad since he was an assistant principal at the high school. (Which made high school a real joy at times!)
I'm in a tougher spot, as my girlfriend's son has similar issues with his grades. I try to help him out but he lies or leaves his assignment at school. She's doing her best to straighten him out but sometimes I feel she is kind of soft. Now I can't say a darn thing because I'm not the kids parent :) But I try to encourage him to get his homework done when he gets home...so my hands are tied...grr.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Think I was too tough on him?
Yup.
It would be a different story if you had made a disclaimer when you promised to take him hunting...something like "you can come if you do well in school this semester". Now it just seems arbitrary and overly harsh. Kids been looking forward to this trip for four months, working hard to take his cource and practicing shooting. And then you just yank everything because you think he is not doing good enough in school?
Too harsh, too arbitrary, no advance warning, no possibility for him to remedy the situation.
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As my second son was reaching 12 all he could do is talk about hunting with me. I told him if I couldn't trust him with the care and attention to detail it took to do his homework, I wasn't going to trust him with a loaded gun. He didn't take me at my word, and as a result his step sister went hunting with me that year and he wasn't allowed to even go for his hunter's-ed course! Sucked big time, but I wasn't backing down.
I told him he had a second chance, that his grandfather wanted to include him in our annual fishing trip to Canada...if he could keep his grades up. He darn near blew that one too, managed to pull D's up to a C at the last minute. He just about lost hunting once this year also but managed to pull his head out of his butt in time to salvage it (wasn't doing his homework again).
Does it hurt to take away special father son time? You bet ya. As you see it hurts both parties. But if I hadn't taken the entire season away from him last year, I would not have gotten compliance this year! He's doing better, and being more responsible, in part because he remembers having to stay home all of last year while his sister went out! And I'm sure he's working towards next years Canada trip as well.
You could cave in, make a special concession because....gee whiz, ya never know when you're gonna croak.....and you're last lesson to him will be that personal responsibility is not his responsibility. I'd rather die knowing that I left behind someone who his willing to work for his future, instead of someone who is going to sit back wondering why he can't have what he wants!
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Rip,
I'd say you did the right thing other than the up in the face profanity stuff but I'm guilty of that myself so I can't criticize.
I've got four with extremely different personalities and buttons that work. My 14 year old is home schooled because the system was holding him back academically. He's about to finish up his 9th grade year because he gets on his software and humps the work out. All A's and B's in all classes. My 11 year old daughter simply doesn't care about school at all and is currently serving a semester long grounding from everything but school work and housecleaning. When she has everything done she can read. My 7 year old and 5 year old are dead serious about turning everything in.
My opinion is that you reconsider the hunting trip as it wasn't from what I read a condition of making the grades because, as mentioned above, you never know what's going to happen at any given time but let him know if this happens again he won't be going and use the weekend to talk to him about the importance of doing the day to day stuff not only in school but every aspect of your life. Time alone with a child is as important to them as it should be to all men.
I know from reading your posts that you're a good man and a caring dad so I'm sure you'll make the right decisions for you and your son.
Good luck.
Dred
your statement "Excellence is standard, standard is substandard. And substandard will NOT be tolerated. THAT I assure you."
Is printed and on my fridge. Thank you for that.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
[snip]
I feel today like I was too tough on him, but dammit, I have high expectations, and for something as easy as just doing the work, turning it in, its not asking for much.
[snip]
Think I was too tough on him?
easy as doing the work and handing it in?
maybe you were a goody goody in school Rip, or maybe you have forgotten what school is like...
for me, there was NOTHING harder than doing an asignment that you have NO interest in. I am well above the IQ level to be considerd genius, not a brag, just the truth. doesnt make me good at work, or sensible, just makes me quick.
Maybe your son is too smart for the crap they make them do in school, maybe your son is a free spirit that will find happiness without the following the sheep path?
sorry Rip, i think you were too hard on him.
maybe though, I will be prooved wrong and he will meet daddy's 'expectations'
bah
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Ripsnort, I think you did the right thing. However, I can relate to "he's not dumb, he just doesn't do the work and procrastinates." Have you considered that your son might be bored because he isn't being challenged enough? AP classes might help, or even private school if that's workable for you...
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Rip,
You know the problem isn't a lack of ability to perform the work that has your son's grades in the dumpster, it's lack of resolve to do the work. You told him what the level of grades he needs to do the "good stuff" with Dad. Stick to it. If you relent all you've done is show that your standards can be changed by playing on your emotions. This is a lesson time issue and he needs to know that there are repercussions for not doing the job. I'd leave him home totally. He knew what he had to do and chose not to do it. It's not a case of not being able to perform, it was a choice not to perform. If you don't hold the line, there are no set guidelines then.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Too harsh, too arbitrary, no advance warning, no possibility for him to remedy the situation.
Sounds like life.
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Kill two birds with one stone.
Here's what I suggest you do:
Take him on the hunting trip. Your youngest one too.
On the first day out tell him:
'son, you have 10 seconds to take off that orange jacket and start runnin'
turn to your youngest and tell him:
'heres your gun kid. in 10 seconds you get to go after your brother'.
Pop a beer and enjoy how your kids educate each other. One will never procrastinate ever again.
The youngest will not want to procrastinate or he'll end up being hunted.. and will also have the extra reinforcement that if he does good, he'll be staying on the safe side of the gun.
For repeat entertainment, please use salt rounds on the weapons.
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Naaa, you were'nt too harsh. He knows you love the other brother more, anyway. ;)
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Just a thought , but the hunting trip might just be the thing that helps turn him around. Denying him what was promised and planned for might just do the opposite.
Kids are under a lot of pressure and stress nowadays. They need some stress relief just as we do. We forget that sometimes.
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I'm really new at this dad stuff, and my advice should be considered with that in mind :)
But, I think that whether or not the initial punishment was perfect, having made the decision it likely now moves into the whole consistency thing. Backing down can send the wrong signal.
Also, he may even be too smart for public school, the assignments may be boring, but... That's life folks! Welcome to the real world. He will have his share of boring but required tasks to do in life so he should probably get used to grunting them out when required :) He may turn out to be a genius theoretical scientist, but even there you probably can't pawn off all the crap work on the grad students.
Charon
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Lots of good replies already Rip.. I can't tell if you were too rough with just your anecdote. It's the sort of thing only you can answer.
I can say though, that I used to be very irregular like that. If some work was fun or interesting, I'd overkill it, but even then there was a risk that I'd get distracted by something else before finishing what was due.
Your best bet is to find what makes him seesaw like he does, and remedy that. Don't keep piling onto him if you see it isn't effective. He has to recognize beyond any doubt that your intent is for him to succeed, not just to discipline him for the sake of it.
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If he’s procrastinating or just forgetting to turn in his work, you did the right thing. Geniuses, retards and everyone in-between can develop a habit of getting their work done and making sure that it is turned in. For some it comes naturally, others have to be taught. You’ve got to be willing to make it hurt, however. No pain, no gain. Some kids learn after the first time they get slammed for messing up. Some need to have it beaten into them. The challenge, as a parent is choosing things that cost them much more than it costs you. If you were really looking forward to this, maybe something else would have hurt you less, but him as much. If this was the most important thing to him, however, he sure as heck won’t forget it.
For my kids, right now all I have to say to get them going in the morning is: “Push-ups in the school parking lot?”
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Rip just another parent with a very similar situation on my end. I would say bounce him out of the trip altogether. I did the same thing with my 11 year old son two nights ago for a completely different reason.
On Saturday he went to a friends house and was able to take his airsoft pistol to do some shooting at targets in their basement garage. Not a problem on my end or his friends parents end. My wife and I swing by after dinner to bring him home and when we get home after some friendly banter a comment was made by him of "Be glad this gun isn't loaded!" after I told him to go brush his teeth and go to bed. Well I told him to take the gun outside and put it in the trash; which he did; and that he had just lost his hunting privileges for the family hunt that happens on the weekend after Thanksgiving. He understood and then the next morning asked about going ahead and taking his hunter safety course which he doesn't have to take here until he is much older. So his friend from the previous night comes over later in the day to play and makes a comment about the airsoft pistol which I said was in the trash due to an inappropriate comment by my son and it was not to be gotten out or some very serious problems would come from it. So they play and then later as my wife is pulling into their driveway taking him home my youngest son pipes up and says that other boy had the pistol in his shorts. So my wife stops the vehicle and asked him about it. Initially he lied and then immediately retracted his comment about having the gun. Both of them lost the gun a second time only now she ran over it in the Yukon XL and then tossed the pieces into the trash at the friends house.
My son was grounded for two weeks for pulling the gun out of the trash and for allowing himself to make a dumb decision and being influenced by another kid saying that he wouldn't get caught. SO no television, xbox, friend, etc... He is not allowed to take the hunter safety course until after deer season is over; which ends on January 31st. He may not have that friend over until I say it is ok and only then after I get a written apology from that boy; who up until now has never been the cause of any bad behavior. He also lost all his Star Wars Battlefront games and any other xbox game that has a gun in it (this one was from his mother). Lastly but certainly not least the old thick, wide leather belt got a great workout on Sunday evening.
The only reason I am not taking my youngest one with me is because he is only 4 1/2 and will not be quiet or sit still in the woods.
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Get him checked for ADD. There are several different kinds. All it takes is one pill a day and you turn into a studying machine for 8 hours.
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Rip he sounds a lot like me when I was in high school (and I'm sure more can relate) which hopefully means he's pretty much normal.
I had a great freshman and sophomore year with good grades. Junior year came rolling around and school wasn't holding my interests. I could actually learn more outside of school, I was heavy into golf and most of all...girls. It was hardest on my parents, my mother most of all being a teacher herself. My "nemesis" course was Algebra 2. Not because I didn't understand the material, but because the "system" my schools and most have use homework as the bulk of your grades. It would actually be impossible to pass the course no matter what scores you received on your tests and exams for the quarter due to the heavy weighting of homework. I rarely did mine. I understood the material and I was even one of the most sought after tutors for math, AP Chemistry and AP History (Advanced Placement). In fact I helped our class valedictorian over a hurdle he was having in AP Chem, and I graduated with a 2-point-something GPA right about the middle of the class in rank.
Why do I say all of this? Because if he actually understands the material in class (and his test scores will reflect this) then it's going to be very difficult to motivate him to sit down and do the same thing 40 times over while he's at home. It was impossible ot motivate me. Money didn't buy grades (my folks put cash up for each A I brought home) since I was always a C student overall. My point is that if his grades are slumping because of the way the homework is weighted vs. the test scores then it's not as bad as it might seem. It doesn't have to do with ADD, he doesn't need medication and from everything you've posted about him here he's an all-american kid. He should be chasing girls, playing football, spending time in the woods with his father as well as learning in school.
If he "gets it" with his subjects then the best way for you to get him to do it is to challenge him to do it. Dare him. Tell him he can't do it. Some of the hardest things in my life to complete are the easiest to do. This is because I know I can do them and there's no challenge or motivation to actually get them done. If I didn't turn in my homework assignment, so what? Was the world going to stop spinning...nope!
As a parent you know the surest way to get your kid to not do something is to tell them to do it. Flip it around. The best way to get him to do his homework is because he can't. Don't yell at him, don't get mad at him, don't whip him with a belt (that one just made me more motivated to not do it!) the easiest way is to tell him you don't think he can do it.
Take him on the hunting trip. Family time and father/son time is more important than anything he'll encounter in his life. School and work included for both your family and his. While you're there it's a good time to talk about how well he isn't doing in school, how disappointed you are (not angry...no matter how mad you might be!) and just how it seems to you he can't hack it. Challenge the kid and he just might surprise you.
No matter what you do to try and motivate him...
Let him take a gun, do the trip as you planned and even take the youngest along as well. Enjoy the trip!
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
That was there as well. I grabbed him by the shirt and stuffed his face into mine and used my share of 4 letter words...it doesn't do any good though. That tactic has never been successful with him. He's a hard-headed one.
I really disappointed. I spend a helluva lot of my time working with him one-on-one with homework...the minute I let him go on his own, and monitor his own work and progress, this crap happens. :mad:
Well then give him the same choice I gave both of mine.
"You can either go to college, or join the Marines. But either way your going to learn how to do something Either got o college and be formally educated. or the Marines and learn how to kill because even in teh Marines. Unless yoru willing to hit the books. Thats all they are going to teach you how to do...Your call"
I also offer the carrot.
"bring me the grades and I let you do almost anything within reason you want."
As a result of all this I have a son in Rutgers who I havent had to tell to do his homework since the 5th grade and an 11 year old daughter who since given that choice has had her grades go from c's to A's & B's and who is allowed to got o bed at 11:00 as opposed to 9:00.
Course it probably helps that when I get pissed off I loo like a total maniac LOL
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Take him Rip, find something else to use as punishment. These times you spend with your kids are precious. You never know what tomorrow brings, take him, spend time together. Don't punish yourself
he can't unless the kid follows through and makes the grade or at the very least makes an extreme effort.
backing down does more harm than sticking to the punishment...as hard as it may be for rip.
actions have consequences...so many kids act like total idiots without the benefit of firm consequences.
just my 02.
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^ ^ ^ What he said.
Rip, you can't back down unless you were way out of line. Your son knows between right and wrong. So do you.
It's better to teach him these life lessons early rather than having him find out the hard way later on that could cost him a lot more.
Changing your mind only teaches your kids that you can be wishy-washy.
RESPECT is what you gain or lose depending on what you do.
He can make the NEXT hunting trip.
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Rip, stick to it. The WORST thing you can do is back down now. I know it isn't what you WANT to do. IF the kid makes a recovery before school is out for the weekend, then reward him with the trip. If he doesn't, he made his decision and he decided what was important to him.
And FiLtH is absolutely right. I did the same thing he did. I aced the tests and stuff, and slacked on the homework. I'm 44 and still have a self discipline problem. And it DOES effect my business, just like FiLtH was saying. If you want him to be self reliant, self sufficient, and self motivated, you're doing what MUST be done. As bad as I was in school, I wish I'd been able to get the chance to do what I wanted in the military, because I could use the life lessons I'd have learned.
I love my son, and I love doing things with him, I wish I could do more with him. But he has the same problems I had, and I REFUSE to let him do what I did. I WILL NOT set him up for the struggles I've had. I have to do what you've done. I'll stop sports, I'll stop games, I'll even stop trips, including racing and hunting, that he and I both dearly love, all just to stop him from going through what I do.
It's a habit you never really break if you carry it through school into adulthood and get away with it. I want him to have more self discipline, I want him to finish college, and I want him to succeed easier than I have. I do NOT want him to be struggling to really succeed at 40 like I have and still am. I could be so much further along than I am, and have so much more. I could do so much more, and give so much more. All for some stupid habits I failed to break.
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No pills.
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Rip,
Getting away like that is an important bonding time. The opportunity will be gone forever come Sunday.
Are there other things/priveledges you can take away instead? or a group of things?
Assuming he goes, rather than chew on him during the outing, maybe take that time to have a heart to heart. Don't rag on him but just have a man to man talk just once. Tell him the rest is up to him.
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It's been interesting following this thread today. We certainly all have our opinions on how to rear children! The commonality is that everyone that has posted in this thread must have experienced something similar, or has had something similar in their life happen that they can relate to!
Just a follow up:
I asked him to contact the teacher (left him a note this AM) and see what he can do to get that grade up by Wed (It's early in the 2nd quarter, so an F can really impact a early grade) and discuss with his teacher what he can do to get the grade up. I then emailed the teacher and explained to her the situation...and that I fully supported any decision she made. I was willing to enforce the "clipped wings" rule but if there was a chance, perhaps there was a way he could rectify the situation. I asked that she not discuss the email exchange that I'd had with her, with my son, a wish she honored.
So, he has to study tonight, (willing, able, ready) and complete the test on the section he got a 0 on from last Thursday. Yeah, its a 2nd chance, but how often do we get those in life? Not often. And we'll have alittle chat about 2nd chances in life, and how rare they are...on our drive over to Eastern Washington on Friday, if he passes tomorrow. It all depends how well he studies tonight, and how he does tomorrow when tested on this section. :)
Cheers! :aok
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good luck kid.
;)
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If there were more parents like you in the world today. There would be less:
1.Thievery
2.Dishonesty
3. Lack of respect for selfs and others
4. Less superficiality
5. less handsomehunkes
6. Basically less Paris Hilton types.
So basically just more all around nice decent people.
I don't know about ya'll but there seems to be an abundance of kids who expect things from others for nothing. Less manners, respect, and such. I come from a generation of if you act wrong you'd go tear a switch off a tree and be whipped with it. I'm 29 and i notice a lot of the girls i meet today are some of the most snot nosed, pathetic, expecting little brats i've ever seen.
I've come to the conclusion that it's because most parents today are dishwrags. They want to be ther're kids friend which ultimately ends up hurting everybody in the end when i have to meet there ******* kids. Kids today idolize the worst people, the entertainers and such. I worshipped mom and dad because they were just all around nice people, who'd set me straight when needed. Now i was about the straightest kid around. No problems or coersions needed. Hence i've always got along better with older people, than my peers.
But you my friend or a wonderful example to parents everywhere.
:aok
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On another note remember the words of Harry Truman. "The buck stops here". And if you are the parent it does. Make a decision and stick with it. You're decision to let him try to redeem himself is a great idea as it shows that you are not an unfair man, and it really is his own fault and he can save it by his own actions. However on the other hand remember that just because you are the parent don't forget that you are not perfect. On all actions try to be fair. Or else your son will just think your a ******* and won't act fairly himself if you don't. All in all parents are some the most observed and emulated people on earth and it must be hard to have a little person hinging on your every action. Just my thoughts as i am not a parent, but i feel you don't have to be anybody particularly special to know something. You just have to know it, thats all.
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One of the problems with having computerized grades is that parents look at it alot, to see what the grades are for their child and become so wrapped up in what the grade is. Pretty soon, the parents and childs life revolves around what the stupid computer is showing, and parents rule accordingly. Which in a sense isnt fair to the child because grades can be late and not reflect current work. My sons school was usually a week or two behind and although the computer showed a bad grade, in reality his grade was good because current work had not been entered. In this case, you just happened to check and found the 61%. Had you checked after the hunt you would have found the same thing, or a slightly higher grade that may not have bothered you. He still had school and could have got a better grade on an assignment to bring it up. You are doing everything you can possibly do to justify taking your son on this trip, and you know good and well that the last thing you want to do is leave him at home. So, he studies very hard tonight and puts forth an honest effort to get his grade up, and you know he studied hard for the test. What happens if he doesnt score high enough to get out of the "F" or if he winds up with a 69% or high "F"?. Where do you draw the line? Does he not go or does he get to go because he put forth the effort. If he doesnt go does he get the message that all his hard work will be unrewarded in the future?
Your sons carrot is growing bigger and bigger as the hunt gets closer. You may have an even tougher choice ahead of you. Scoring high on the test, getting a good grade makes it all much easier and lets you off the hook to make a choice. Yeah, it the easy way out.
Regardless of the outcome, and the opinions of myself and others, you will make the right decision.
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Originally posted by M36
One of the problems with having computerized grades is that parents look at it alot, to see what the grades are for their child and become so wrapped up in what the grade is. Pretty soon, the parents and childs life revolves around what the stupid computer is showing, and parents rule accordingly. Which in a sense isnt fair to the child because grades can be late and not reflect current work. My sons school was usually a week or two behind and although the computer showed a bad grade, in reality his grade was good because current work had not been entered. In this case, you just happened to check and found the 61%. Had you checked after the hunt you would have found the same thing, or a slightly higher grade that may not have bothered you.
Wrong. It's updated on a *DAILY basis, with a date. :aok It's a requirement in this school district by the principal. :D
*All his teachers update on a daily basis when there is content to report...with exception of Physical Education (and yes, they get graded on that too...)
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If you let him "pulling off something in the last 48h" you are sending the message that it's ok to be a slaker 95% of the time, as long as you shine just enought to save the day. Granteed it's how most live their life by, it is still not something you wish your kid takes as a life habit.
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Wrong. It's updated on a *DAILY basis, with a date. It's a requirement in this school district by the principal.
Thats good!!!!! Our school district had the same rule, and grades were supposed to be updated daily. And yes, some teachers were behind two weeks on these updates, regardless of what the rules were. And yes, I had to make calls to the principle about it. My post was only from my experience with a school district that use to be a good when we first moved into it in '92. It has since then gone down hill.
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Early in a marking period is no time to be worried about grades. Due to the small amount of points that you have at that point, really little things can adversly affect a grade. Ive brought up a 33% in an early quarter to a low A by the end, providing no more effort than I normally do (not making up the assignments, not 'studying extra hard', etc). It seems that people dont realise this sometimes.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
We'd started planning this hunting trip for Thanksgiving Week-end last July, as he began his hunter safety course and passed. Joined a local skeet & Trap club, began practicing on trap every other week-end for about 8 weeks. He got a new gun, new hunting clothes... and his grades were a struggle in the fall. He did get 2 A's, 2 B's, but also had 2 C's which *were* D's right before the quarter ended in early November. Last minute work bumped those D's up into the C range.
So, I'm checking his grades online last night, and he's failing Language & Arts class, 61% score. Granted, its early in the 2nd quarter, but this is no excuse as he just didn't do the work (or in this case, turn the assignment in on time) He's not dumb. He just doesn't do the work and procrastinates.
So I clipped his wings on the hunting trip. I'm bringing my younger son instead (who is doing great in school, but he will not hunt, just tag along). This devastated Gordon last night. I was really pissed. I probably overreacted, made him feel bad that all this planning and preparation was all for naught because of his lack of action in his school work.
I feel today like I was too tough on him, but dammit, I have high expectations, and for something as easy as just doing the work, turning it in, its not asking for much.
I told him he's got two days (by Wed) to see if he can pull out some sort of miracle and get that grade up above a 70% by Wed. Talk to the teacher, ask her what you can do to get it up by Wed.
He's so inconsistent...he'll get straight A's in any given subject then not turn in an assignment (with just about any excuse you can think of ) and drop that A average down to a C in one flail swoop. It just pisses me off to no end.
Think I was too tough on him?
Are you staying home yourself? Do you check nightly to see if he has completed all of his assignments?
He will only procrastinate what you let him procrastinate! Children need hard parenting when it comes to instilling good work ethic, and although I think your intentions are meant well, it is your responsibility to make sure he is doing the work.......that is, if you place high expectations on him. (some children age into a good work ethic and some are naturals, some of the best and brightest were procrastinators in middle and high school)
If you do not know what is due and when, then demand his teachers send home a work checklist everynight. That way, he knows he can't procrastinate, and you never have to get mad at him! I do feel your heart is in the right place though!
Mark
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If I had a chance to go hunting, the only thing holding me back would be if I wasn't feeling well that day. Going hunting is more education for your son. It probably wouldn't be fun for either of you if you're starting out disappointed. I'd go and not even bring up anything about school unless it is praise. The hunting trip should stand alone as a learning experience for both of you, your son in particular, and as a work break for you. Not making the grade is not a reason for denying the hunting trip. Misbehavior would be, and that is what should not be tolerated.
Les aka dear Abby:)
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If he doesn't pass this time....will you take me.....dad :)
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Originally posted by SkyRock
snip
If you do not know what is due and when, then demand his teachers send home a work checklist everynight.
Well, could go one step better. Require the student to submit a written checklist every night. That way, you don't ask the teacher to add workload to his/her schedule, but you add accountability and supervision that isn't present now.
This is a great idea, Rip. Its a technique I use in managing the team of managers I'm responsible for. Each one of them is not only clear as to what my expectations are, but they know they are responsible to report to me in real time as to exactly what they are doing to meet those expectations. It gives me a chance to monitor each manager's area and prompts me to give them guidance when I see things that expose their individual shortcomings. I find its a great help in keeping me on my own toes in terms of making sure I help my people develop.
You could put this to advantage with your son by making sure you comment to him each day on some aspect of his work assignments, choosing the one each day that gives you an opportunity to relate in ways tailored to his needs. I'm sure that the more positive interest you show him, the more motivated he will be to excel. People respond best when their leaders are apparently interested and engaged with them on a level that is tailored to personal attributes. Who better to fulfill that role - teacher or you?
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Originally posted by culero
Well, could go one step better. Require the student to submit a written checklist every night. That way, you don't ask the teacher to add workload to his/her schedule, but you add accountability and supervision that isn't present now.
This is a great idea, Rip. Its a technique I use in managing the team of managers I'm responsible for. Each one of them is not only clear as to what my expectations are, but they know they are responsible to report to me in real time as to exactly what they are doing to meet those expectations. It gives me a chance to monitor each manager's area and prompts me to give them guidance when I see things that expose their individual shortcomings. I find its a great help in keeping me on my own toes in terms of making sure I help my people develop.
You could put this to advantage with your son by making sure you comment to him each day on some aspect of his work assignments, choosing the one each day that gives you an opportunity to relate in ways tailored to his needs. I'm sure that the more positive interest you show him, the more motivated he will be to excel. People respond best when their leaders are apparently interested and engaged with them on a level that is tailored to personal attributes. Who better to fulfill that role - teacher or you?
I agree culero, but was mentioning that because it is already required by the NCLB. Granted, the No Child Left Behind Act had good intentions, but you would not believe what it requires of teachers. By reading it, one might even get the idea that it is the teachers fault that ripsnorts son skipped out on his assignment!:aok
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I remember when I was in high school. I was in the same boat as your son. I was capable of making A's, but I only had the self-discipline to make A's on tests and never turn in HW, effective making the A's become C's.
My Dad told me that if I get a C in Geometry, I would have to hang my rifle up for the rest of the hunting season... I never thought he'd do it, but sure enough, he did...
I have always been a "the best lessons are the ones learned the hard way" type of person. Maybe your son is the same way.
I know I learned my lesson when my dad stuck to his guns and kept me out of the tree stand. I certainly think you did the right thing... Keep it up!
Just my $.02...
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FYI, he had his retake. Scored the highest possible for a re-take (80%) which brought his overall grade up. Due to his studying last night, he totally forgot about a science paper that was due and got an F on it today. It lowered his overall grade down in Science. I just got off the phone with him after berating him up and down. :mad:
I'm at wits end. :(
It's time to create a daily status sheet that he will be accountable to report to me each night before bed. Then I'm going to have him pull his grades off the web on a daily basis and report the delta to me.
He'll learn, one way or another, he'll learn.
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have you re-grounded him for the hunting trip?
:confused:
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I think this is exactly the reason why I wouldn't be a proponent of insta-grades being made available to parents immediately. ESPECIALLY this early in a grading period. He has the potential to, tomorrow, get a 90% on his science paper but instead all he hears about is the 0 today from his folks.
I'm sure he feels worse about the paper than you do knowing what's on the line and if he doesn't than the hunting trip didn't mean enough to him in the first place. Trust me when I say he's learning an awful lot right now and not just about whatever his science paper will be on.
Give the kid to friday and you yourself don't look at the computer grades until then. That's where you'll make the decision and hear the case if something isn't up to snuff.
I don't like that high school is about getting the busywork done rather than actually helping the kids walk out with an education. There's more to education and learning than doing the busywork, IMHO. He's learning and he's learning fast Rip.
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The F was in a daily homework assignment (currently this thing called a "Moon Calendar" where they just look up what phase the moon is in, and color a moon calendar chart) This is a roll up to many assignments that account for 40% of the overall Science grade. I probably won't hold him back from the trip over this, but I'm certainly going to talk about how small, easy tasks are just as important as larger assignments.
About online grades...I can't imagine waiting 2.5 months only to see a kid is failing a class, or finding out during teacher conferences that they are failing. The instant online grades allows to correct for behavior before bad habits take over.
The corrective behavior plan (CBP--I love acronyms!) I will implement beginning today will be a daily report and daily homework status that he'll begin reporting to me. Of course, there will be take-aways for negative values (grades going down, or assignments not turned in) however there will be incentives for improvement too. I've already created a spread sheet that he'll complete each day for his status reporting.
I'm going to try to manage this like a failing project. I've revived a few failing projects, and perhaps its time for alittle "Daddy Project Management".
:lol
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Perhaps try to take yourself down to weekly checkups (if you're not so addicted to the grades already!) and see how that goes. A lot can happen in a week :)
Stomp his friday night and weekend into oblivion if he's not up to par.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Perhaps try to take yourself down to weekly checkups (if you're not so addicted to the grades already!) and see how that goes. A lot can happen in a week :)
Stomp his friday night and weekend into oblivion if he's not up to par.
Good advice. I'll start with daily for the first two weeks, then weekly if improvement is observed. :aok
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"I have high expectations"
What does that mean "you have high expectations"?
It's not your life but theirs. You can only give them tools to deal with it, not to live it. :huh
Love your kids and give them support and advice with what ever they want to do with their lives.
-C+
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
FYI, he had his retake. Scored the highest possible for a re-take (80%) which brought his overall grade up. Due to his studying last night, he totally forgot about a science paper that was due and got an F on it today. It lowered his overall grade down in Science. I just got off the phone with him after berating him up and down. :mad:
I'm at wits end. :(
It's time to create a daily status sheet that he will be accountable to report to me each night before bed. Then I'm going to have him pull his grades off the web on a daily basis and report the delta to me.
He'll learn, one way or another, he'll learn.
That’s a good plan. You may want to shift the check to right around dinner time, however, so if something is not done he has time to work on it.
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Originally posted by Charge
"I have high expectations"
What does that mean "you have high expectations"?
It's not your life but theirs. You can only give them tools to deal with it, not to live it. :huh
Love your kids and give them support and advice with what ever they want to do with their lives.
-C+
Well, you have to analyze the whole paragraph, not a single statement. I will take the time to elaborate further.
Time + Effort=High expectations.
Alot of my effort and time keeping him out of the D and F territory since 4th grade. This year I've not been the "hovering" parent. In my mind, it's a "Sink or Swim" year (first year of middle school) Manage your own time, pay the consequences if you don't manage.
I've never met a parent that had low expectations of their child, nor told them "I just expect you to do average". Personally speaking, C's are okay by me. I won't tell him that though, I expect him to do much better because I know what he's capable of doing. The problem is his organization and time management. He's a smart kid, with a ton of procrastination. Just the opposite of me...not so smart, but I don't procrastinate. "Get 'er done" is my theme.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The F was in a daily homework assignment (currently this thing called a "Moon Calendar" where they just look up what phase the moon is in, and color a moon calendar chart) This is a roll up to many assignments that account for 40% of the overall Science grade. I probably won't hold him back from the trip over this, but I'm certainly going to talk about how small, easy tasks are just as important as larger assignments.
About online grades...I can't imagine waiting 2.5 months only to see a kid is failing a class, or finding out during teacher conferences that they are failing. The instant online grades allows to correct for behavior before bad habits take over.
The corrective behavior plan (CBP--I love acronyms!) I will implement beginning today will be a daily report and daily homework status that he'll begin reporting to me. Of course, there will be take-aways for negative values (grades going down, or assignments not turned in) however there will be incentives for improvement too. I've already created a spread sheet that he'll complete each day for his status reporting.
I'm going to try to manage this like a failing project. I've revived a few failing projects, and perhaps its time for alittle "Daddy Project Management".
:lol
Just a thought on it Rip, and this is from someone who struggled with his oldest son and school right up through his graduation. There was never any question of my son's smarts. But he was never good at school. He just didn't learn well that way and this is a kid who was reading before he started school, could draw complex machines and aircraft from an early age etc. But he'd forget work, get the work done and forget to turn it in or what have you.
I rode him mercilessly to the point we could barely stand each other. It didn't change. I work with kids for a living. My boss asked me after I'd grumbled about it one day, "are his grades for you or for him?"
The question caught me off guard. He then asked me how my relationship with my son was at that point. I told him that I got tense as soon as I knew he was coming home from school, and that my son was barely talking to me at that point and looking a bit like a dog who'd been kicked too many times.
He then asked me which was more important, the relationship or my son getting the grades I wanted. I had to take a long hard look at that and in the end the relationship was far more important. It wasn't as if Drew was a defiant, disprespectful kid breaking rules. He was anything but that and he and I were always close until I'd decided that i was going to make him get good grades.
In the end he graduated, well towards the bottom of his class, but he and I were close again and he always talked to my wife and I about things. He worked full time after High School and on his own decided to go to community college. He was out on his own finally and was going to make it.
Then he was killed in a car wreck and I lost him at 21.
I know that slants my thinking so keep it in mind. But I have no regrets about stopping on the hammering him about school. I never quit having expectations of what kind of man he would become and in the end he did not disappoint me in that regard. It was his life and his grades. They weren't my grades.
I'd give my left arm for one more hunting trip with him. That bond you create with times like that will be far more important as he gets older then anything grades will do.
Hope that makes sense.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
I agree culero, but was mentioning that because it is already required by the NCLB. Granted, the No Child Left Behind Act had good intentions, but you would not believe what it requires of teachers. By reading it, one might even get the idea that it is the teachers fault that ripsnorts son skipped out on his assignment!:aok
True.
At my school teachers are required to write homework assignments on the board and students copy them into assignment books. We also have to post assignments daily online. Online grades are posted by each teacher at least once a week. Work for absent students is sent to the office daily.
I rarely give homework assignments, though. They get plenty in their other classes and I can’t expect all students to have compatible PCs, and programs let alone the ability to copy my intranet guides, examples and rubrics onto flash drives. I have my students in grades 2 and up turn in files electronically. My “graded” folder for this quarter contains over 1,400 files already and we are only 3.4 weeks into the quarter. I probably also have over 1,000 “observation” grades on top of that… There’s a glimpse into just one aspect of my job…
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RIP.
growing up i had the same problem. in my case, i was ADD central. a very smart kid, but i had a real difficulty managing assignments or concentrating long enough to complete them. it caused me immeasurable amounts of heartache. it wasn't that i didn't want to...it was because i didn't know how.
i called it the wall. it was this thing that i could never figure out how to get over or around when i was younger.
if that is where the problem lies i feel for him...but feeling for him won't solve the problem. he has to learn how to overcome it...and he has to eventually learn it for himself.
the key, i think, is to find ways to make it challenging and interesting for him...it's just a problem that needs to be solved. a challenge. people like me like challenges. i don't know if that is the case here, but if it is...that is a big part of the deal.
perhaps if you make it challenging. start small and then raise the bar as he trains his mind to overcome distractions that make him forget or ignore the basics.
tell him that you bet him that he can't and i bet he will.
dunno...just reading about this brings back some really frustrating times but it also reminds me that i stuck it through and ended up going to grad school. nothing is impossible.
most important thing is, i think, that he has to want it.
find a way to make him want it.
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Too much to reply to here but thanks for your insights, guys.
Guppy, sorry to hear about your son. Two things that I do not do: I do NOT have high expectations "for me" regarding grades but rather for HIM. Sure, its nice to say "he's doing well in school" but I despise those "My son is an honor roll student at Blah Blah High school" bumper stickers. That sticker tells me that their son probably has no social skills, and no common sense.
Secondly, I don't force them to play sports that they don't want to play, I don't live my younger athletic years through them. I *do* have a requirement that they participate in *a* sport though...I don't care if its mud wrestling girls, or football....I just want them to take care of their bodies and watch what they eat (and in the case of mud wrestling girls, you really have to watch what you eat! :rofl )
Anyway, the grades are for him, not me. He has been consistent for 3 years now stating he wants to play college football one day (football is all he breaths, eats, lives, 24/7 365 days) and so I am trying to implement behavior based on good study habit and good grades, both of which you need in order to even be considered for college. If you're not pulling a 3.0 by your senior year (or better), then you're not going to go to a university.
Those "study habits" start the moment they enter school. You don't start them in their senior year...by that time its too late.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Guppy35
That bond you create with times like that will be far more important as he gets older then anything grades will do.
Hope that makes sense. [/QUOTE]
Damn, that statement makes me feel bad about even bringing up grades.
But, I will still have a level of expectation from him. I just want him to do the best he's capable of doing, and I know him well enough that he's not meeting that capability.
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That bond you create with times like that will be far more important as he gets older then anything grades will do.
Amen Guppy35.
Thats what I was trying to accomplish with my decisions in the past with my son, but I couldn't put it as eloquent as you have.
Im sorry to hear about your son and your loss. to you!!!
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Rip,
Im not a father but I can give you two perspectives on things:
All through school my dad used to always point out that I could do better no matter what the results were or which subject it was in.
To give you an idea, in middle school I was once called last minute to replace one of the school's swimming team who had broken his leg to compete against other schools in a rather important national event. I was not on the swimming team, had never been in the swimming team, had never shown interest in joining it. My PhysEd teacher just knew I was a good swimmer from the one pool-session class we had once a month. I was pulled out of a class, asked if I could do it.. heck I would do anything to get away from math class those days so I said yes.. dumped on a school bus with the others in the team (all high-school level kids) and taken across the city for the event.
I won 2 gold and 1 silver from the 3 races I took part on. Against much older kids. At a flippin' moment's notice... and hell i was overweight for a kid my age those days. I got home and he told me that if i couldve done better to get the third gold medal (not directly but the inevitable comment came after the mandatory congratulations)
That was the day i remember I said FUG it and quit trying to put any effort on my schoolwork besides what was required to pass the class. I know it sounds retarded but when you're a kid you dont think about how it affects you in the long term, just in the very short term. And it just became my way of doing things.
I was pretty much a C student through the rest of middle and high school. Thing was though, my grades sucked because i gave a crap about homework and group assignments.. i did good on tests and class assignments. I can even say that I was one of the few in all my classes that retained what was being taught rather than memorizing and forgetting.
I graduated with a not so spectacular GPA and was 37th out of a class of 42... but I did come in 7th highest in the country's SAT equivalent (called ICFES.. and let me tell you the SAT is finger-painting compared to the ICFES.. holy sh* ) and was 2nd highest ICFES score in my graduating class. I never told my dad that.
Today im 30 and my parents are friends with a couple that has a daughter (10yrs old now). I've known that kid since she was 5 and she's brilliant. The kid plays the violin, is a straight A+ honor student and is even being considered to be advanced a whole grade level. A parent's dream.
I'm like a big brother to her (shes a single child) and from talking to her all these years I know her parents drive her hard on her studies and violin lessons. She plays the violin amazingly well but she's told me she doesnt like the violin..she just plays it because her parents make her do it. She likes school but she misses out a lot on being with her friends because she has to study several hours a day after school (before her daily hour long violin session). I know her parents use 'threats' to push her...from being mad at her to taking away her nintendo DS and i-pod for a week, denying to take her out to movies or to her friend's house, etc.
This kid is like the opposite of me .. they forced her into excellence and although she is still in elementary she's already at the stage where she does this not for herself but because she is afraid of her parents. My parents never used threats on me but used the wrong kind of encouragement to the point I gave up trying to get encouragement from them and merely did what I had to do to avoid getting into trouble.
Again, im not a parent but I dont think that forcing a kid to perform in school is right no matter how 'good' it is for their future... nor is it good to try to push them above and beyond when they are already trying.
If your kid has trouble because he procrastinates I can only suggest you try to find out why hes procrastinating and resolve that first ..working side by side with your kid not kicking him in the butt telling him to get his sh* together or else!.
Check his notebook.. if he is like me with his homework he might be doing only 10 out of the 40 assigned questions and dropping it. It never made sense to me to do 40 questions when doing 10 was practice enough and I understood the subject.
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He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
-- Proverbs 13: 24 (KJV)
A father must discipline his son but let that discipline be guided by love and affection. I too had troubled times with my youngest but I have the comfort in knowing that he matured and appreciated that discipline before his time here was done.
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The first thing I was going to ask you was how was the hunting trip related to his school work. Did you inform him before hand that going on the trip was contingent on his getting certain grades?
Originally posted by Ripsnort
FYI, he had his retake. Scored the highest possible for a re-take (80%) which brought his overall grade up. Due to his studying last night, he totally forgot about a science paper that was due and got an F on it today. It lowered his overall grade down in Science. I just got off the phone with him after berating him up and down. :mad:
I'm at wits end. :(
I'll say. Getting mad at him is retarded. You put a **** load of stress on him, he came through, then ****ed up the science because you stressed him? I don't think that one is his fault. Perhaps you better cop to some contributory negligence here. Admit some fault to the son, tell him how proud you are off him for coming through in clinch on the re-take, laugh off the science and tell him you will work with him on his science when you get back from the hunting trip.
You know, make a latter day saints commercial moment out of it. ;)
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Originally posted by AKIron
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
-- Proverbs 13: 24 (KJV)
"Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord"
-- James 5:14
And if you kid gets sick, don't bother with a doctor.
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My husband and I seem to disagree sometimes on the strictness of punishments. But, my kids are 15 and 16 now and I think you did the right thing by addressing the issue with the grades. I am not sure I would agree with not letting him go hunting with you though. Family time is very very important, your time with him is special and taking that away should not be a punishment. I would punish him for the grades but not use no time with dad hunting as the punishment. Kids need the time with their parents and parents also need that from their kids. Please reconsider punishing him with no time with dad. And choose another punishment.
Froze
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
My husband and I seem to disagree sometimes on the strictness of punishments. But, my kids are 15 and 16 now and I think you did the right thing by addressing the issue with the grades. I am not sure I would agree with not letting him go hunting with you though. Family time is very very important, your time with him is special and taking that away should not be a punishment. I would punish him for the grades but not use no time with dad hunting as the punishment. Kids need the time with their parents and parents also need that from their kids. Please reconsider punishing him with no time with dad. And choose another punishment.
Froze
I laughed alittle at your post...mainly because, we're doing something together every night of the week, 7 days a week, 364 days a year. Once a year my wife and I have a "Parents night out"...otherwise its all kids...be it sports, reading together, or just having fun. :aok
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Wonderful you do things with your children nightly, unfortunately alot of parents do not. My post was meant to be sincere not funny. I wish more parents spent time with their kids like you do. This still does not change my opinion of using time with father as a punishment. I don't agree with that, but then again that is my opinion. There are better methods to accomplish your authority.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family,
Froze
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Rip,
To me it sounds like your on the right path here. Do what you feel is best that is all any parent can do.
I think you have some decent advice offered in this thread but ultimately you know what is the best way to push your son to (for lack of better term) be all that he can be.
Personally I feel middle school is a make or break time for a student as this is where they really begin to learn the habits that will help them through high school. If they fall behind here the rest of the time they are trying to catch up and not excelling.
You sound like a caring and involved parent and as long as you are helping them to reach for the stars your doing your job
:aok
Good luck!!
<>
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If your kid thinks it's not challenging enough to wipe his butt after taking a dump is that any reason to let him get away with not doing it?
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I took that "Where there's a will theres an A" study course and it worked. Tell your son not to study for hours at a time. It turns out the brain remembers the most at the beginning of a study session and at the end of one. Not the stuff in the middle. The solution.... break your study sessions up into 5, 10 or 15 minutes. Take a break for an hour or two. Do it again. I used to wait about an hour. Also review material right after a class for a couple minutes while it's fresh. The result.....Gpa's in the high 3.0's, deans list in college. Academic scholarship rewarded by Navy Rotc. It works. tell him.
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You did the right thing.
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Parenting, the perfect example of "the most important jobs are ALWAYS" the toughest.
It's a really delicate balancing act we seek here. While you don't want to be a heartless task master, and create bitterness, you also don't want to allow a child to believe it is okay to skate by on the least amount of effort yielding minimally acceptable results.
It just ain't easy.
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I think that the plan Rip has laid out is perfectly in balance. It will help his son learn to manage himself. In the long run, that's the most valuable thing possible in the context of education, plus its happening while fundamentals are being learned. If the young man is to take control of his own education, these are the building blocks that will allow him to master whatever he eventually chooses to.
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Originally posted by culero
I think that the plan Rip has laid out is perfectly in balance. It will help his son learn to manage himself. In the long run, that's the most valuable thing possible in the context of education, plus its happening while fundamentals are being learned. If the young man is to take control of his own education, these are the building blocks that will allow him to master whatever he eventually chooses to.
I agree. The lessons learned here will pay big dividends later. This will be one of those "the older I get the smarter Dad gets, and the more I appreciate what he taught me" lessons.
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As to the aspect of parents harping too much about grades, I don't think that's where Rip is coming from here. I'd guess that as long as his son applies himself and gives a good effort, Rip will be happy. He just doesn't want him to blow it all off. I'd say that's a healthy attitude.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I agree. The lessons learned here will pay big dividends later. This will be one of those "the older I get the smarter Dad gets, and the more I appreciate what he taught me" lessons.
Heh :)
That dumb SOB that raised me is a farking genius right about now (just like he predicted ;))
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Update:
We discussed the "plan" for 30 minutes when I got home from work. He will log into the website after he finishes his homework and give me a status report, everyday, on both the delta of each grade, and a brief status of what he did for homework, as well as what is due the following day. After two weeks, if his grades stay up, he can give status once a week.
Any F's in ANY assignment that is 0 (meaning he didn't turn it in) results in bedroom isolation for 24 hours (with exception of bathroom and dinner time) No Xbox, electronic devices, just his homework folder and books are allowed while in room isolation.
We'll see how this goes...:confused:
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Originally posted by culero
As to the aspect of parents harping too much about grades, I don't think that's where Rip is coming from here. I'd guess that as long as his son applies himself and gives a good effort, Rip will be happy. He just doesn't want him to blow it all off. I'd say that's a healthy attitude.
Yeah, I don't think the grade is as much an issue as the lack of effort and responsibility that brought on the grade. And I agree with that.
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Originally posted by culero
As to the aspect of parents harping too much about grades, I don't think that's where Rip is coming from here. I'd guess that as long as his son applies himself and gives a good effort, Rip will be happy. He just doesn't want him to blow it all off. I'd say that's a healthy attitude.
Spot on. I considered this normal parental behavior (expecting a passing grade) I have no tolerance for procrastination. His other big problem is organization, which we've worked with him for years! He's doing better, his folders are pretty good compared to what they were, so he doesn't have that "I couldn't find the assignment!" excuse anymore...:cool:
FYI< I used to have a "A's and B's to play sports" policy, but I realize now that not everyone is good in every subject. So a C or higher needs to be maintained. (Sports are his life, it is devastating to him as a "take-away" so its a good incentive to get good grades...unfortunately football recently ended and bang...the grades drop!)
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Originally posted by culero
Heh :)
That dumb SOB that raised me is a farking genius right about now (just like he predicted ;))
Ain't that the truth. And boy do I miss him. He'd have been 79 Sunday.:(
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Update:
We discussed the "plan" for 30 minutes when I got home from work. He will log into the website after he finishes his homework and give me a status report, everyday, on both the delta of each grade, and a brief status of what he did for homework, as well as what is due the following day. After two weeks, if his grades stay up, he can give status once a week.
Any F's in ANY assignment that is 0 (meaning he didn't turn it in) results in bedroom isolation for 24 hours (with exception of bathroom and dinner time) No Xbox, electronic devices, just his homework folder and books are allowed while in room isolation.
We'll see how this goes...:confused:
I like the plan. I do much the same with my son. He was diagnosed "ADHD":rolleyes: in the 1st grade. A load of Bravo Sierra. A year and a half of drugs later, he had more problems not less. Everyone's expectations were low, and he lived up to that.
Now we struggle with cleaning up the mess. We have the help of his coaches (track, cross country, and especially archery), missed assignments and poor grades due to lack of effort are not acceptable. I'm not going to brow beat him until he either despises me or gets straight A's. I'm just going to make him learn honest effort is required, and will be required all through life. And soon enough, no one will be there to force him, if he doesn't do for himself, the real world doesn't give a damn, and he'll be trampled under foot.
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Good plan Virgil! :aok Sounds like we're on the same page.
FYI, we went to a doc last year, he said G might have mild ADD...so we tried drugs for a month. No change. I didn't want to do this because I think being consistent on expectations and repeating it over and over again finally sinks in...but we tried it regardless. No change.
He's better this year than last, and better last year than the year before....
My youngest is a cake walk. Knows whats expected of him, and in most cases we only have to tell him to do something once.
Kids are all different and all require various degrees of "hovering". Too much hovering can ruin a kid. Letting them sink now and then is good for them long term. :aok
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I think ADHD is very over diagnosed. There may be some isolated cases, but you'd think one in ten kids had it if you listened to some of these people. And they prescribe some seriously nasty drugs for it too. When you have to go to the MD.'s office and sign off on the prescription and take it by hand to the pharmacy, that should tell you something.
I've seen improvement every year. More when he has better teachers. That means we'll have tougher times soon, because it's hard even for good teachers to do as much as you get to higher grade levels.
And yeah, my daughter is a polar opposite of my son, who is younger. My daughter is already completing senior level classes in college, in her second year. She'll complete her undergrad stuff almost two years early, and is getting great grades, at the top of her class. She'll get to law school early, and well prepared.
My son is a lot more like me, and my parents didn't push me hard enough. I got the behavior part of it, but the academic part of it they let slide. I learned I could skate through, barely getting by, putting out a limited effort. And I did. I did what I wanted, sports and partying, before any school work. And I went to work to have more money to play around, race, and party. Work got in the way of school, and so did play. So school got dumped, and I failed to learn to put off my wants and take care of my needs and my future. Bad mistake.
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Well I read almost all of the replys .
Hmmm , go or not go , that's a hard one , will let you decide . But I will add how I raised my two girls .
Oldest is now a Dr living in Norway with her husband with one daughter and 3 more ( yes triplets ) .
My youngest is a RN , she lives in Wisconsin with her husband and has one daughter that's just now two .
I only went to High School , my wife the same , my Dad only finished 8th grade .
I think school is important , it's a child's "job" till he enters the workforce . I reinforced that all thru school , by doing well at our "jobs" . Going to work on time etc .
I told them life is all about choices , and kept telling them it over and over again . Showing them how other people in life made certain choices and were they ended up in life v how they might do things and how it "might" make there lives better in the long run . It's really his "choice" how he does , IMO the parents job is to make sure he knows that he is the one to make that "choice" .
His choice to do well in school , go to college , get a good job with a bright future , etc . Or just get by , get his girl friend pregnant , get married to her or just pay child support , live off you etc etc .
Mostly it was easy for me to have them to "want" to do well . But my oldest the Dr was mostly the hardest , lots of times I told her to just goof off etc cause if she did I wouldn't have to save for her college money and then could get a NEW BIG FANCY TRUCK like you have :)
As it turned out she did very well and I had to drive my 1986 Ford Ranger pickup till 2002 when my youngest got done with Michigan State . It worked for me , telling her that it would cost me more for her to do well , lmao . Sometimes you have to do whatever works .
I can't tell you how to raise your kids , but that's how I did mine . I have two trophy daughters and I get to brag on them all the time . Do they love me ? Very much , I never never have to tell them what me and my wife did without to make sure that their "choice" to do well was there .
So IMO show him whats out there if he doesn't do the work , and let him make his own choice somewhat .
Good luck to you sir , as I have said many many times , raiseing childern to take care of themselves is the hardest job I or most have ever taken on .
Sincerely
spro
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The corrective behavior plan (CBP--I love acronyms!) I will implement beginning today will be a daily report and daily homework status that he'll begin reporting to me. Of course, there will be take-aways for negative values (grades going down, or assignments not turned in) however there will be incentives for improvement too. I've already created a spread sheet that he'll complete each day for his status reporting.
I'm going to try to manage this like a failing project. I've revived a few failing projects, and perhaps its time for alittle "Daddy Project Management".
:lol
Update:
The oldest boy has been doing well! He's been doing his status on his grades nightly and working very hard.
His midterm grades came in the mail today.
B in Math
B- in Science
A- in Social Studies
B- in Language Arts
A- in Reading
B+ in Gym (can't believe he doesn't have an A in this, being the jock he is)
Things are looking up! I just hope he stays consistent. :aok
The youngest son is "Mr.Consistent". His grades were all outstanding!
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Congrats Rip!!!!
And a Big Salute to your Son!!!! <<>>
:aok
Good Stuff here.
Mac
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Congrats to your kids and S to you for being a Dad instead of just the bio mass contributor.
:aok
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Good deal, glad it worked. What grade is he?
Our junior high students have six core classes and five specials. Our elementary students have ten core classes and five specials.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Update:
The oldest boy has been doing well! He's been doing his status on his grades nightly and working very hard.
His midterm grades came in the mail today.
B in Math
B- in Science
A- in Social Studies
B- in Language Arts
A- in Reading
B+ in Gym (can't believe he doesn't have an A in this, being the jock he is)
Things are looking up! I just hope he stays consistent. :aok
The youngest son is "Mr.Consistent". His grades were all outstanding!
Cool, Rip!
Just goes to show what some well intended and sage Fatherly advice and postive motivation can do!
TIGERESS
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Well done to you and your son Rip. Hang in there as there are little doubt more challenges ahead.
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Thanks for the feedback once again in the thread.
Eskimo, 6th grade, which is "Middle school" here. (Middle school is 6/7/8th, Junior high is 9th and 10, and Senior high is 11th and 12th)
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Here it was
grade school - K-4
middle school - 5
Jr High - 6-8
High - 9-12
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To all you parents of preteens, if you thought you lost some sleep when they were first born wait until they start driving. :D
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Originally posted by Meatwad
Here it was
grade school - K-4
middle school - 5
Jr High - 6-8
High - 9-12
I went to a school in Greenbrook, N.J. (for 2 years) where they had a "High School" that was 7th through 12th grade. :eek: I learned how to fight dirty in that school....:mad:
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Originally posted by AKIron
To all you parents of preteens, if you thought you lost some sleep when they were first born wait until they start driving. :D
GPS-enabled cell phones. :D
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I went to a school in Greenbrook, N.J. (for 2 years) where they had a "High School" that was 7th through 12th grade. :eek: I learned how to fight dirty in that school....:mad:
New Jersey.
"Where the weak are killed and eaten"
Things everyone learns in Jersey schools
Rule # 1
ANYTHING can start a fight. From looking at someone too hard. To saying hello the wrong way.
Rule # 2 in Jersey schools, Learn how to fight well. Run VERY fast. Or to learn to love pain and getting your face kicked in
Rule # 3. If you "Just walk away" like your mamma told you.
you will only get beaten worse
Rule # 4. Being a tattle tale and running to the teacher or principle for help with a bully will only result in not only pissing the bully off, But all his..and quite possibly, your friends as well. Resulting in many arse whoopings instead of just the one
People will still like and respect you after you get your arse kicked. But nobody respects a snitch.
Rule #5 And most important
There are no Marquess of Queensberry rules in a streetfight.
Strike first, strike hard and strike not just to hurt, but to devistate