Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kev367th on November 20, 2007, 05:26:42 PM
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Found a pilots manual that clealry states that 20 degrees flaps can be used at 200mph or less.
So howcome we can't even get any flaps until under 160mph?
Also noticed that 5 degrees flap was allowed 'at high speeds', unfortuneately it wasn't more detailed than that.
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Scan it in, send it to HTC.
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Actually the stated limitation for down to 20 degrees is 210 IAS for the Tempest. Normal landing proceedures state to get below 200 IAS before deploying flaps to 20 degrees.
I dont see anything similar that applies to the Typhoon though.
As Urchin said, email it. I would hold off a week or so since Doug is off right now.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Found a pilots manual that clealry states that 20 degrees flaps can be used at 200mph or less.
So howcome we can't even get any flaps until under 160mph?
Also noticed that 5 degrees flap was allowed 'at high speeds', unfortuneately it wasn't more detailed than that.
Scan it Kev. I have an original Tempest V pilots notes and it says flaps down 160 IAS.
It states that there are three positions for the flaps. Up, Down and Valve Shut. The flaps can be stopped at any position with the Valve Shut position.
I don't see anything about a specific 20 degree flap position or a higher airspeed then 160 IAS for flaps
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200mph reference is in the landing proceedure remarks. The limitation reference I mentioned is actually in the Tempest II Pilot Notes: Limitations- "Flaps down to 20° - 210 mph (IAS)"[/b]. Both the Tempest V & II pilot notes list full flap limitation at 160, and both say "Before lowering flaps to 20° reduce speed to 200 m.p.h. (172 Knots) IAS"[/b] in landing proceedure remarks.
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It seems clear from the pilot's notes that it's not a combat flap kind of set up though like the 51 or the 38
It's like the Spit. Up or Down. Just the procedure to stop the flaps with the Valve Shut position isn't something you'd be doing in a fight.
What you've quoted Murdr must be a further update. The one I have is a July 44 version of the Tempest V Pilots Notes with no amendments. Since the one you have includes the Tempest II, it's gotta be later.
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Tiffy/Tempest?
They had same kind of flaps even if the wing is totally different? :huh
-C+
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Just the procedure to stop the flaps with the Valve Shut position isn't something you'd be doing in a fight.
I don't see why not. On the 109 the flaps are hand cranked, yet several surviving Luftwaffe and Finnish 109 pilots say they used flaps in turn fights.
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I'd love to see even anecdotal evidence of Tiffie or Tempest pilot's using flaps in a fight. I don't recall ever seeing anywhere.
I don't recall ever seeing mention of a Spit driver using flaps in combat either for that matter. Clearly folks have seen it mentioned with 109s. I've seen combat flaps mentioned in combat reports from 51s and 38s.
Quoting the entire section on flaps from the Tempest V pilots notes.
"Flaps Control and indicatior.-The flaps are controlled by a lever(52) on the left hand sloping panal. The Lever has three positions marked UP, DOWN, and VALVE SHUT. The flaps can be arrested in any desired intermediate position by returning the lever to VALVE SHUT. It is important however the the lever be returned to the VALVE SHUT position after the flaps have been fully lowered as when the flaps lever is set to DOWN, the blow off pressure is lower then required for retracting the undercarriage fully. In the event of failure of the engine driven pump, the flaps can be operated by hand pump. An indicator is fitted on the top left-hand side of the instrument panel."
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I came across it by accident.
Sounds like Typhoon and Tempest have similar if not identical flap limitations.
The 5 degrees flaps "at high speeds" came from a site where I was reading some Typhoon pilots combat experiences, I wish I could find it again :( .
[edit] I think it's also mentioned in Warpaint Series 5 Hawker Typhoon.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Quoting the entire section on flaps from the Tempest V pilots notes.
"Flaps Control and indicatior.-The flaps are controlled by a lever(52) on the left hand sloping panal. The Lever has three positions marked UP, DOWN, and VALVE SHUT. The flaps can be arrested in any desired intermediate position by returning the lever to VALVE SHUT. It is important however the the lever be returned to the VALVE SHUT position after the flaps have been fully lowered as when the flaps lever is set to DOWN, the blow off pressure is lower then required for retracting the undercarriage fully. In the event of failure of the engine driven pump, the flaps can be operated by hand pump. An indicator is fitted on the top left-hand side of the instrument panel."
Seems to me that the flap setting are not just "UP" or "DOWN", but rather a step-less system with a lever controlling the moving of the flaps. I.e. to move the flaps down a bit push the lever down, and then center it once the desired angle of flaps has been achieved.
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Originally posted by Viking
Seems to me that the flap setting are not just "UP" or "DOWN", but rather a step-less system with a lever controlling the moving of the flaps. I.e. to move the flaps down a bit push the lever down, and then center it once the desired angle of flaps has been achieved.
That's all well and good, but what I'm not seeing is any indication it was ever used in combat. I'm not arguing against flap use. I use em all the time in the 38G.
It doesnt appear there was a combat flap setting for a Tempest of Tiffie as there were in some US fighters. Again, same thing with the Spit.
What it sounds like is you'd been in your dogfight and getting slower. You'd hit DOWN flaps, have to watch the indicator on the panel as the flaps dropped then push it back to VALVE SHUT to stop it where you wanted it.
A bit different then a system that has different flap settings and a combat flap setting like a 38 or 51.
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To my knowledge no non-American aircraft had something called "combat flaps". However, that's just because no-one else used the term "combat flaps". There is nothing special or magical about the P-51 flaps. They are simple plain/camber flaps just like on the 109 and many other aircraft. The P-38 had more complicated fowler flaps, but it is questionable if they were worth the increased weight and production time.
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Originally posted by Viking
To my knowledge no non-American aircraft had something called "combat flaps". However, that's just because no-one else used the term "combat flaps". There is nothing special or magical about the P-51 flaps. They are simple plain/camber flaps just like on the 109 and many other aircraft. The P-38 had more complicated fowler flaps, but it is questionable if they were worth the increased weight and production time.
Beside the point :)
What were looking for is an equivalant use of 'combat flaps' by the Tiffie or Tempest. There was no such setting as there were in the 51 and 38.
We know that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence in combat reports of pilot's using' combat flaps' in those birds.
I've never seen an RAF combat report where flaps use is mentioned. That doesn't mean it didn't happen but it would be nice to see some proof.
Is there any such evidence of its use in Tiffies or Temps. I can't find any. If there is, great! I'm on Kev's side if we can find something that proves it. As of now, it looks like AH has it right with the down flaps working at 160 IAS.
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Whether they used flaps in combat historically is really irrelevant. What is important is whether they could have used them in combat. HTC is modeling the functionality of the aircraft, not pilot procedures or habits.
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Originally posted by Viking
Whether they used flaps in combat historically is really irrelevant. What is important is whether they could have used them in combat. HTC is modeling the functionality of the aircraft, not pilot procedures or habits.
Just a thought, wouldn't we need a more complex modeling system?
What I'm getting at is... Planes like the 109 an tiff you'd have no preset positions. You would hit the flap down till you get the amount desired. If you try to dial in too much at too high a speed it would jam.
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Yup, we would need a step-less system, and no auto-retract. Like in Il2FB.
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Originally posted by Viking
Whether they used flaps in combat historically is really irrelevant. What is important is whether they could have used them in combat. HTC is modeling the functionality of the aircraft, not pilot procedures or habits.
So show me the proof please :)
What we seem to have is the Tempest V pilot's notes from July 44 only saying Flaps at 160, and we have the one's Murdr has for the postwar Tempest II and V saying 200 for 20 degree flaps.
We understand that the Temp could stop at different points by using the VALVE STOP setting, but there wasn't a defined flap setting so to do so we'd need a new system for flaps in AH as well.
As any number of 38 drivers have wanted, it would allow for more complex use of flaps. But it's also clear that it isn't going to happen so I'd guess the Temp and Tiff are going to have to live with what they've got unless HTC would code in specific flap settings for the Tiff/Temp that really weren't there so they could drop to 5, then 20 then full or something similar.
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Originally posted by Viking
The P-38 had more complicated fowler flaps, but it is questionable if they were worth the increased weight and production time.
First time I've heard something like this about adding Fowler Flaps to the P-38. Is this just your opinion or was it really questionable at the time?
ack-ack
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Oh, it's only my modest opinion. I just don't see why the 38 needed such complex flaps. Was the landing speed unusually high in 38s?
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Originally posted by Viking
To my knowledge no non-American aircraft had something called "combat flaps". However, that's just because no-one else used the term "combat flaps". There is nothing special or magical about the P-51 flaps. They are simple plain/camber flaps just like on the 109 and many other aircraft. The P-38 had more complicated fowler flaps, but it is questionable if they were worth the increased weight and production time.
On page 6 of the P-38J/L pilots manual, there is a nice photo of the flap control lever. One position is marked "MANEU." for maneuver. If I remember correctly, the F4U manuals indicate that 10 and 20 degree settings may be used for maneuvering.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what your post has got to do with my post?
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Viking, perhaps it has to do with the 'ergonomics' of cockpit structure.
When you see the 109, the flap crank-wheel is on the left side, like a large windmill on the side of the cockpit. I have no real idea on what the combat conditions would be like, but it doesn't seem too difficult for the pilot at a HOTAS position, to slip his left hand back, feel the wheel, and then crank it a few degrees as he wants.
But I'm not sure how easy it would be if the lever was a part of the frontal/curved instrument board. The pilot would have to take his eyes off from his target, stretch his hand to the frontal board, use his fingers to move the lever to one side, and then move the lever again to a "Stop Valve" position, do his maneuver, and then retract the flap again when its not needed... while the switch/lever looks much more "modern" than the mundane "crank wheel", I'm guessing the crude "wheel" approach might actually be more easier for the pilot to get his hand on during intense combat.
Besides, it isn't uncommon for the average pilots to make all sorts of mistakes... especially rookies, in the heat of the battle, are known to pull wrong levers, put switches in wrong positions, turn something on and then forget about it.. and etc etc.. so I'm guessing flap usage in combat, wasn't something an airforce commander would want to intentionally teach to the pilots under his wing. Perhaps some pilots who fly regularly with slick veterans might be influenced to use flaps on a more regular level, but I really don't see a rookie pilot doing that.
Like, for instance, the story of Lawrence Thompson and his P-51... although his claims of meeting Hartmann is widely disputed, during that combat with the 109 he pulled down the flaps, and then actually forgot to retract them - which caused his plane to fall into a lucky stall/spin, which saved his life.
Ofcourse, this is a mere guess.