Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on November 24, 2007, 10:48:56 AM
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071124/ap_on_re_us/immigrant_rescuer;_ylt=AoM5NMNh2Eb50LO3saJfYfEDW7oF (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071124/ap_on_re_us/immigrant_rescuer;_ylt=AoM5NMNh2Eb50LO3saJfYfEDW7oF)
Illegal immigrant saves boys life. He was probably on the way to stab some babies and got distracted, ya?
;)
EDIT: Well dang, the URL is getting hosed by the BBS software.
PHOENIX - A 9-year-old boy looking for help after his mother crashed their van in the southern Arizona desert was rescued by a man entering the U.S. illegally, who stayed with him until help arrived the next day, an official said.
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The 45-year-old woman, who eventually died while awaiting help, had been driving on a U.S. Forest Service road in a remote area just north of the Mexican border when she lost control of her van on a curve on Thanksgiving, Santa Cruz County Sheriff Tony Estrada said.
The van vaulted into a canyon and landed 300 feet from the road, he said. The woman, from Rimrock, north of Phoenix, survived the impact but was pinned inside, Estrada said.
Her son, unhurt but disoriented, crawled out to get help and was found about two hours later by Jesus Manuel Cordova, 26, of Magdalena de Kino in the northern Mexican state of Sonora. Unable to pull the mother out, he comforted the boy while they waited for help.
The woman died a short time later.
"He stayed with him, told him that everything was going to be all right," Estrada said.
As temperatures dropped, he gave him a jacket, built a bonfire and stayed with him until about 8 a.m. Friday, when hunters passed by and called authorities, Estrada said. The boy was flown to University Medical Center in Tucson as a precaution but appeared unhurt.
"We suspect that they communicated somehow, but we don't know if he knows Spanish or if the gentleman knew English," Estrada said of the boy.
"For a 9-year-old it has to be completely traumatic, being out there alone with his mother dead," Estrada said. "Fortunately for the kid, (Cordova) was there. That was his angel."
Cordova was taken into custody by Border Patrol agents, who were the first to respond to the call for help. He had been trying to walk into the U.S. when he came across the boy.
The boy and his mother were in the area camping, Estrada said. The woman's husband, the boy's father, had died only two months ago. The names of the woman and her son were not being released until relatives were notified.
Cordova likely saved the boy, Estrada said, and his actions should remind people not to quickly characterize illegal immigrants as criminals.
"They do get demonized for a lot of reasons, and they do a lot of good. Obviously this is one example of what an individual can do," he said.
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nice try Chairboy, but it is not about the illegals being good people or bad people, it is that they have entered this country without permission. That is a crime.
If someone wants to come to the US to work or live there are rules to follow to do this, they can even become a citizen if they want.
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Quoted : <>
Huh?
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Not sure what the point is. that if we don't let in the illegals then every time a 9 year old is stuck with his dead mother in a van... no one will save him?
lazs
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The point is that there is no point. This is a flaccid attempt at turning one man into a poster child for a population that is as diverse in moral code and character as any other group consisting of millions of individuals.
Maybe when a couple million of them up and voluntarily pay income taxes on their cash earnings there will be something to talk about. As it stands, it's an act of utter desperation for those who are lax on the immigration issue to turn examples such as this to bolster their position.
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If the wetback was really a hero he would have saved the old lady also.
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The question has never been are our neighbors to the south human beings but rather do they have the right to come here illegally and stay.
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Springfield Oregon.
As of the censusGR2 of 2000, there were 52,864 people, 20,514 households, and 13,477 families residing in the city. The population density was 1,417.4/km² (3,670.7/mi²). There were 21,500 housing units at an average density of 576.5/km² (1,492.9/mi²). The racial makeup of the city was 89.64% White, 0.71% African American, 1.38% Native American, 1.11% Asian, 0.31% Pacific Islander, 3.09% from other races, and 3.77% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 6.91% of the population.
I just don't think chairboy is living in an area where illigal immigration is a problem.
Edit: Yet
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Originally posted by Speed55
Springfield Oregon.
As of the censusGR2 of 2000, there were 52,864 people, 20,514 households, and 13,477 families residing in the city. The population density was 1,417.4/km² (3,670.7/mi²). There were 21,500 housing units at an average density of 576.5/km² (1,492.9/mi²). The racial makeup of the city was 89.64% White, 0.71% African American, 1.38% Native American, 1.11% Asian, 0.31% Pacific Islander, 3.09% from other races, and 3.77% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 6.91% of the population.
I just don't think chairboy is living in an area where illigal immigration is a problem.
Edit: Yet
Given that he tried to use the actions of one man to speak for a group of millions, I somehow doubt that Chairboy is a 'big picture' sort of guy.
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Ha ha, some nice overgeneralizations! I'm against the amnesty acts, and want a strong border too, I just like poking Mr No Name in the nose. Looks like I poked a whole bee hive of silly sausages. I think Lazs is the only one who got it, the article is pretty biased, especially the last couple lines.
Lighten up, Francis!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I'm against the amnesty acts, and want a strong border too.
He was probably on the way to stab some babies and got distracted, ya?
Lighten up, Francis!
Good to hear the 1st part.
I saw that 2nd line and kinda freaked a bit. Unfortunately, i've met a lot of wack job city people, waaayyyyyy left of where you seem to stand.
They would say that sorta thing, and alot worse, just to get into an argument, or a fight alot of the times.
It's hard to differentiate reading off a monitor sometimes.
Now that i know you were just kidding..
:aok
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Looks like I poked a whole bee hive of silly sausages.
you calling me a "silly sausage"? Defend your position sir.
what part of illegal don't you understand?
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Serve....miss....suckup.
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If the wetback was really a hero he would have saved the old lady also.
-by Yknurd
You should have not said that. He is a illegal alien. Just shows how mature you are.:mad:
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Originally posted by red26
-by Yknurd
You should have not said that. He is a illegal alien. Just shows how mature you are.:mad:
If you're gonna get indignant about it you should insist on the pc term, undocumented alien/worker.
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Originally posted by Yknurd
If the wetback was really a hero he would have saved the old lady also.
jaw dropped
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Lets just add all of Mexico's 31 States to the United States and collect taxes and pump oil.
Then we will have Hawaii, Alaska and the lower 79 states and will have a much smaller land border to our south with Guatemala and Belize.
TIGERESS
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While no government agencies specifically track crimes by illegal aliens, there have been some efforts to quantify the loss. Last December, Mac Johnson set out to investigate the number of homicides perpetrated by illegal aliens. Since the federal government would not provide any useful information, he contacted all 50 statehouses. Three months later, he had fewer than a dozen responses. Only one state, Vermont, provided any useful information.
He then set out to statistically estimate the number of murders by illegal aliens based on available crime data and conservative estimates of the actually number of illegal aliens in the country – which, of course, nobody really knows.
He found that between 1,806 and 2,510 people in the U.S. are murdered annually by illegal aliens. If he's right, that would represent between 11 percent and 15 percent of all murders in the U.S.
In one study of a sample 55,000 illegal immigrants serving prison sentences in the U.S., it was discovered that they are responsible for over 400,000 arrests and over 700,000 felony crimes.
link (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52198)
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quote:
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Originally posted by Yknurd
If the wetback was really a hero he would have saved the old lady also.
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Originally posted by texasmom
jaw dropped
That was my reaction also...
TIGERESS
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We'd be of course happier if the guy had ignored them in fear of getting caught and the boy would've died. We'd have no idea of him ever being there and at the present he'd be happily staying in the US.
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Originally posted by Fishu
We'd be of course happier if the guy had ignored them in fear of getting caught and the boy would've died. We'd have no idea of him ever being there and at the present he'd be happily staying in the US.
So, you're saying we should blame every death due to neglect upon illegal aliens? Not sure I'd go quite that far. ;)
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we could send the hero to finland. Finland welcomes illegal aliens don't they?
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Originally posted by AKIron
If you're gonna get indignant about it you should insist on the pc term, undocumented alien/worker.
Calling an illegal alien an undocumented worker is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest. :D
Regards,
Sun
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Originally posted by Sundowner
Calling an illegal alien an undocumented worker is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest. :D
Regards,
Sun
:rofl :rofl
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Drunky, if that's not enough of a set up for you, you're getting rusty..
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It doesn't confuse me, nor does it confuse the issue of illegal immigration.
He somehow helped the little boy... GOOD, shows a basic human good deed. He broke the law by being here... BAD. Does this mean I wanted the boy to die? no. It does mean that right is right and wrong is wrong.
Also in reference to drunkys use of wetback, it is quite correct seeing that the term came into use with "Operation Wetback" during the Eisenhower Administration. It was a splendid success, 750 agents detained and deported 130,000+ illegal aliens and another 1.3 MILLION, fearing arrest left on their own.
This was accomplished by 750 agents from June 17,1954 to September 1954. Their leader was INS director Joe Swing (Retired General who was with the 101st airborne btw)
Just think of what 6,000 could do in a year if given a free hand to do so? I'd sure love to see it happen.
I enjoy this type of discussion BTW Chairboy... I like to do all of these things in a friendly manner, I dont have to agree with ya to enjoy talking to you! ;) (You have EVERY right to disagree with me... and thereby be WRONG... but well within your rights!) :D
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Did nobody get the point that he had already made his crossing and sacrificed his "American Dream" to help a little boy in distress?
Illegal or not, that is the kind of citizen you need to build a good society.
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agreed, maybe he can use that fact to help his immigration application next time he wants to do it the right way.
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Originally posted by Angus
Did nobody get the point that he had already made his crossing and sacrificed his "American Dream" to help a little boy in distress?
Illegal or not, that is the kind of citizen you need to build a good society.
We will send them to Iceland. Since it is getting warmer there they will adapt quite well I am sure.
:rolleyes:
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Yeah, right, the American Dream is yours, all you have to do is break the law.
In fact, that's what the majority of the US needs to catch up on... Obviously, welfare couch potatoes are the new American Dream.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
We will send them to Iceland. Since it is getting warmer there they will adapt quite well I am sure.
:rolleyes:
Well, there's plenty of jobs, lots of immigrants, and this guy already prowed worthy of his salt.
If I had his adress, I'd forward it to the meat packing center here, where there are quite some Chileans as well as Portugese, although the majority of the foreign workers here are Polish...
My town has perhaps some 20% of the workforce foreign.
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Slip a fake passport in the envelope while you're at it.
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calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is more like calling a drug dealer an undocumented pharmacist.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is more like calling a drug dealer an undocumented pharmacist.
lazs
I don't think there is many drug dealer dealing paracetamol and aspirin :D
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now you get it straffo... and there is no illegal alien who can be called an "immigrant" under the US federal laws.
lazs
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also.. back in the bad old days.. I have seen some very noble things done by some of the worst people you could imagine.. always surprised me... still wouldn't want em out on the street tho.
lazs
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hey his name is JESUS for cryin out loud. he is the savior .' ) . i dont know i think they should allow him to apply to0 become a citizen. but he is still a illigal immagrent, so even though he is a good guy. he risked his new american dream for a kid. that was the price he had to pay. the guy is a good man, so i think they should allow him to apply for a citizenship.
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Originally posted by AKIron
The question has never been are our neighbors to the south human beings but rather do they have the right to come here illegally and stay.
AhHA! Trying to confuse the issue once again, I see!
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Originally posted by Sundowner
Calling an illegal alien an undocumented worker is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest. :D
Regards,
Sun
I think that is the definition in jollye Olde England. :)
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I think I am beginning to comprehend the term "NARROW MIND"
Come on, this guy is a Mexican trying to get a better life. He decides to sneak to the USA. However, an alternitive route to NAFTA. (sp?)
So, he strays across an accident, and being human as well as what it looks to me, both skilled and gentle, he throws away his chance, for a very Christian doing.
This gets posted here, and I am ashamed of you for using the opportunity for BASHING. The majority of the posts goes to ranting mode on those loving immigrants and so on...well. - they come in, they work black, they don't pay taxes (neither does the buyer of their work if it is sales tax etc).
Recently, I was debating on these threads if it had been possible in the USA to fall into a facist regime. I was debating against i.e. Lazs. Anyway, I am heavier now on my opinion, for I see the material for it. It begins with a narrow mind.
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Originally posted by john9001
nice try Chairboy, but it is not about the illegals being good people or bad people, it is that they have entered this country without permission. That is a crime.
If someone wants to come to the US to work or live there are rules to follow to do this, they can even become a citizen if they want.
EXACTLY!
I have zero problems with anyone who comes here legally.
Just as I have no problem with anyone comming into my house whom I have invited or allowed into my house asking for a drink of water or something to eat.
On the other hand I have a serious problem with anyone who breaks into my house and then demands the same
Ok he saved a kids life..very nice.
he's here illegally. Ok I wont advocate shooting this one In light of him saving a life.
Give him a meal and a bath then ship him back to where he came
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angus, it's not about "immigrants", it's about illegals, there is a difference.
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Originally posted by Angus
I think I am beginning to comprehend the term "NARROW MIND"
Come on, this guy is a Mexican trying to get a better life. He decides to sneak to the USA. However, an alternitive route to NAFTA. (sp?)
So, he strays across an accident, and being human as well as what it looks to me, both skilled and gentle, he throws away his chance, for a very Christian doing.
This gets posted here, and I am ashamed of you for using the opportunity for BASHING. The majority of the posts goes to ranting mode on those loving immigrants and so on...well. - they come in, they work black, they don't pay taxes (neither does the buyer of their work if it is sales tax etc).
Recently, I was debating on these threads if it had been possible in the USA to fall into a facist regime. I was debating against i.e. Lazs. Anyway, I am heavier now on my opinion, for I see the material for it. It begins with a narrow mind.
So if I break into your house, steal everything and sell it so that I can "have a better life" then its a-okay in your book?
Perhaps your mind is a tad too "open"?
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Originally posted by john9001
angus, it's not about "immigrants", it's about illegals, there is a difference.
Actually, it's about an article with a really transparent agenda. Read the last couple sentences.
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Angus you need to quit bashing common sense. Admit you're defending the wrong guy.
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Originally posted by Angus
I think I am beginning to comprehend the term "NARROW MIND"
As well you should. About time. You seem to miss the big picture.
So, he strays across an accident, and being human as well as what it looks to me, both skilled and gentle, he throws away his chance, for a very Christian doing.
You know nothing about the guy besides one thing. He entered illegaly.
The majority of people are not going to leave a child in harm`s way, no matter what their background.
You are not here and you do not see the damage done to our country by illegals and those that hire illegals. You can`t speak on the subject with any authority whatsoever.
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One guy crossing over isn't the problem, the sheer mass of people that are is. That and everything else that doesn't work to resolve this problem.. including arguing that there's nothing wrong with it because the sheer mass of illegals are individual human beings "after all".
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I think I do indeed see the big picture.
You will always have criminals have a go at you. Thhat's just the way it is.
You will always have illegal immigrants having a go at your country, if there are places and situations bad enough for them to try. Especially if the new "host" will as well benefit from their stay.
You, in the USA use a lot of illegal "beaner" workforce already. Because it's cheaper. So does everybody else. Even us here in Iceland, although they don't swim over.
You have mostly Mexicans, the Germans have people from the old eastern block as well as Turks, we have people from the Baltics etc.
I am not sure how your system is, for an illegal here, while paying no taxes, will have no rights, no access to any social system, and not being able to own anything legally. However, anything the person buys will still carry salestax, - VAT. Yet, we have some illegals. . .
And yes, - if you get busted, you're sent away.
If you break the law and get sentenced, you'd be jailed, then sent away, and you get the PNG mark, - the last case I remember is from this week.
A guy from Lithuania...
Those do not have to be bad people, - they're actually good enough for "us" to use their services. Most of which are simply cheap and dirty jobs that you won't find a local to do. Just like you won't find any American to do the toymaking for a Chinese price.....
This guy was on his way to try his luck in the United States. His crime as for today was merely the way he was getting there. (since we have to assume he was not a criminal on the run). And when faced with a choice, which was dumping his chance for an act of Christian mercy, he forfeited his chance.
I want to point out something here regarding a "big picture" which I think that you, citizens of the USA need to spot, - maybe I see them better as an outsider?
- The major background of the US population comes from people that simply "went there".
- Many of those were at the time, actually, criminals.
- This guy is AFAIK not a criminal.
- This guy dropped his big-time for an act of sympathy.
- A big part of your population would actually just keep driving past.
- The majority of your population claims to be Christian.
I'm not the Bible guy, but I still could refer to some Biblical notes on a thing like this. Or as a comparison. I'll bring them up in regard of this point if you want, - I seem to recall people claiming to be Christian here, - but the word I want some here to ponder on is...."hypocrisy"
Have a sleepless night....
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Originally posted by Angus
I think I do indeed see the big picture....
Have a sleepless night....
Huh? Sounds like you are trying draw attention away from the delecateness of your arguement by calling into question the "niceness" of the average American...
Why is what you describe as your imigration policy acceptable in your country but not in the US? Is it because the snow white purity of your nations heritage is too important to pollute?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Actually, it's about an article with a really transparent agenda. Read the last couple sentences.
Yeah, and that's why you posted it--to take the wind out of the sails of the pro-illegal immigration argument.
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So give him a kewpie and ship him back where he belongs.
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If he's the kinda guy that would throw away his chance at makeing more money in one day than he would make in a month in Mexico, to stop and help a kid in the wild, then here's what should be done:
We give the guy a shower, a bath, and a 2-way radio.We give him a call in a couple of weeks' after we send him back. We start shipping him money and military supplies and weapons. WHY???
He has enough character to STAY IN MEXICO AND FIX HIS CORRUPT-ASS GOV'T. He can lead the movement, and be a better leader than the sweetheartbag's they have down there now.
It would help the U.S. immensely(A mexican gov't. that actually cares' about it's people would have things improved enough to convince they're people to stay there, after all) and these people would be able to make a decent living in the land of their birth, where they are legal citizens.
Whenever I see an illegal alien, I wonder what river they will swim next, after they've ruined this country.
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Right on Frode!
What President Bush did was to allow Vincente Fox to deport his poverty problem before their last election to keep his party in power. The problem is, their young workers who should be marching in the streets of Mexico City for reforms are marching in Los Angeles demanding 'rights'.
Now, mexico is a country of weaklings - approximately 12% - perhaps more of their citizenry is here, illegally, in the United States. Those in mexico now are even more powerless against the corrupt government. I don't hate mexicans or even mexico for that matter but I do despise illegal aliens no matter where they are from AND those who house, feed, clothe and employ them - they are all quite simply, criminals.
A strong mexico is in all of our best interest... their illegals are driving up housing prices, using our resources, driving up demand for gasoline, putting a huge strain on our legal system, healthcare system and adding undue expenses to our schools who now MUST include them (ALL of our schools should be taught in english ONLY). We are now mexicos welfare system. many companies and small businesses now have a workforce subsidized by YOUR tax dollars, they no longer have to pay a fair market wage nor any healthcare cost because YOU are paying for it out of your taxes - thereby screwing the American workers by driving wages/benefits DOWN. When did we relegalize slavery???
Due to the illegal aliens, our area - previously void of gang activity including a gang fight 110 yards from where i am sitting. I want them GONE today - I will do anything to make this happen. I just hope that you will all do as I have done to urge your government entities to discourage illegals. Thanks to myself and many many others when our city council reconvenes in January, it will be illegal to hire and rent to illegal aliens here.
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I'm still at a loss as to why anyone would be pro illegal immigration....
Over here in Oz, we've got our hands full with the people we already have and are accounted for, I certainly don't want thousands of illegals unbalancing the system for the rest of us.
Admittedly it's a tad harder to get into Australia than just walking into Texas but the principal still applies. Do you want to have thousands of unaccounted for people clogging up your welfare system, taking jobs from Americans and placing an extra burden on your economy?
If you want in, fine, fill out a form and wait like the rest of them, if not you're SOL buddy.
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As racist and little minded some of you are here, if that were my family in the car I would be internally greatful for Jesus being there. I am a born US citizen and cannot comprehend what life is like in other countries and neither can alot of you. You can make all the hate comments you wish about Jesus, but if it were not for him, who knows what worse could have happened. I am a firm believer that God works in mysterious ways and he brought Jesus there for a reason. His couragious act deserves a chance in our country. For those of you with the hate comments, it is actually you who needs to find the truth in the fact that we are all Gods people no matter what origin we may be from. This story is a great story of one man who chose to not think of himself but of others. I know at least he can sleep well tonight, can you?
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
racist .. little minded... hate comments
what part of illegal don't you understand?
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Jesus saves.
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
As racist and little minded some of you are here, if that were my family in the car I would be internally greatful for Jesus being there. I am a born US citizen and cannot comprehend what life is like in other countries and neither can alot of you. You can make all the hate comments you wish about Jesus, but if it were not for him, who knows what worse could have happened. I am a firm believer that God works in mysterious ways and he brought Jesus there for a reason. His couragious act deserves a chance in our country. For those of you with the hate comments, it is actually you who needs to find the truth in the fact that we are all Gods people no matter what origin we may be from. This story is a great story of one man who chose to not think of himself but of others. I know at least he can sleep well tonight, can you?
Best Line Evar.
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
As racist and little minded some of you are here, if that were my family in the car I would be internally greatful for Jesus being there. I am a born US citizen and cannot comprehend what life is like in other countries and neither can alot of you. You can make all the hate comments you wish about Jesus, but if it were not for him, who knows what worse could have happened. I am a firm believer that God works in mysterious ways and he brought Jesus there for a reason. His couragious act deserves a chance in our country. For those of you with the hate comments, it is actually you who needs to find the truth in the fact that we are all Gods people no matter what origin we may be from. This story is a great story of one man who chose to not think of himself but of others. I know at least he can sleep well tonight, can you?
A: If he is a great man, see my post above.
B: Most likely, he would sleep better if he had tried to do something to help the kids' mom. Seeing as now that since his dad is dead, and now his mom, Possibly thanks to his inaction, The kid will have to grow up with foster parents. (Unless of course, he has a close relative to help take care of him.)
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what part of illegal don't you understand?
I completely understand illegal, it is comments like "the wet back", "send the hero to finland", "Whenever I see an illegal alien, I wonder what river they will swim next, after they've ruined this country.", and "So give him a kewpie and ship him back where he belongs."
Do I agree with them entering illegally, no I do not. But do I think he deserves a chance, Yes I do!
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Frostbitee, they all have a chance, they can enter the country legally.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
A: If he is a great man, see my post above.
B: Most likely, he would sleep better if he had tried to do something to help the kids' mom. Seeing as now that since his dad is dead, and now his mom, Possibly thanks to his inaction, The kid will have to grow up with foster parents. (Unless of course, he has a close relative to help take care of him.)
Can you not read?
Her son, unhurt but disoriented, crawled out to get help and was found about two hours later by Jesus Manuel Cordova, 26, of Magdalena de Kino in the northern Mexican state of Sonora. Unable to pull the mother out, he comforted the boy while they waited for help.
He tried to help the mother as stated above, but could not. So he stayed all night with the boy, gave him his jacket, lit a bon fire until early morning when help arrived.
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Originally posted by john9001
Frostbitee, they all have a chance, they can enter the country legally.
I have never said I agreed that he broke that law trying enter illegal, I am stating he is a great man to do what he had done and deserves a chance to live in our country legally. Do you feel he does not deserve to live here legally???
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For consideration:
"Conclusion
Under free trade, the U.S. and Mexico, as never before, share a common interest in keeping Mexico's workers in Mexico. Mexico's large pool of available, inexpensive and adaptable workers is its premier comparative advantage; for U.S. and other prospective multinational investors or importers, Mexico's labor reserve is the major attraction of a free trade agreement. The United States has in addition an interest in shielding its own least skilled workers in vulnerable industries from the competition of imported workers at a time when free trade will cause disruption and displacement.
Restraint on low skilled immigration will also ease the competition of vulnerable American and settled legal immigrant workers for the public assistance and educational resources they will need to see them successfully through the transition. By insisting on high labor, safety and environmental standards in Mexico, particularly among those multinationals most likely to benefit in the American market, the United States would protect the long-term political acceptability of free trade among its own electorate; encourage democracy and a better quality of life within Mexico and neighboring U.S. areas and reduce incentives to emigrate; and ease the competitive burden on American workers by narrowing the production cost advantages Mexico gains from its unjustifiably low workplace and environmental standards."
Entire article:
http://www.cis.org/articles/1991/back491.htm
:)
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Originally posted by sluggish
Huh? Sounds like you are trying draw attention away from the delecateness of your arguement by calling into question the "niceness" of the average American...
Why is what you describe as your imigration policy acceptable in your country but not in the US? Is it because the snow white purity of your nations heritage is too important to pollute?
I was pointing out that this "law breaker" reacted better than an average citizen.
As for immigration policy, my country belongs to a pool of available workforce which is THOUSANDS of time bigger than our own. That thought would probably send some chilling down on the average citizens spine in the USA....
So, the snow white purity (was this Jesus a black person? I recall hispanics mostly being caucasian), - well, we have to live with that. Snow white purity is slowly getting a tan :D
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Originally posted by Angus
I think I do indeed see the big picture.
I know you do. That`s where you are wrong.
His crime as for today was merely the way he was getting there.
One of his crimes was that he was in our country illegaly. That`s where we can start. From there, who knows. There is no way for us to know since no documentation. There is probably no documentation of any value on crimes, if committed in his own country.
That is one instance that you certainly do not see the big picture on. There are illegal gangs here that are recruiting quite vigorously here and have been for some time. They are wreaking Billy H on our country. Murders by the numbers, Extortion, kidnapping, rape......you name it. No documentation, no records that can be used. When one or a group is being sought for crimes , they simply blend or make a trip home for a cooling period while others carry on with the organization.
The sad part is, those that come here illegaly are not only causing big problems here , they are also taking away from their own country.
You say that illegals get no benefits from your country. Good for them. Illegals here get benefits and services for free that a lot of our citizens can`t afford.
People here are finaly waking up and are getting very tired of this situation. Changes are and will happen.
How many factions of MS would you like us to send you?
This guy is AFAIK not a criminal.
The guy became a criminal in our country the minute he lad foot on U.S. soil by entering illegaly. Big picture-1 Angus-0.
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Tell me then, what would you consider as a suitable punishment for a person who steps over or walks past a person in distress?
As for this guy being a chriminal it's his character 1, Jacka1s character - 0
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I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that what he did was a good thing.
What I think the basis of the whole argument is some folk think it entitles him to free citizenship despite the fact he was committing a CRIME at the time.
That in my opinion is exactly the same principal as letting the scumbag that comes in and strips your home bare of possessions be absolved of any guilt because he happened to help someone survive some other similar unfortunate ordeal while he was on his way home.
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Wow, and to think I was looking to get into a few tours of iraq or something to earn my citizenship... All I had to do was break the law and then play vigilante superhero to be not only absolved but get in front of everyone else that actualy got in line lawfuly.
I could even score some Icelandic booty with those ultra sexy humanitarian vibes. Heck, I probably could run for president and win it too!
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Originally posted by Angus
Tell me then, what would you consider as a suitable punishment for a person who steps over or walks past a person in distress?
As for this guy being a chriminal it's his character 1, Jacka1s character - 0
That law is in place here Angus. It doesn`t apply to him, in the reality of punishment, due to the fact he is here illegaly. He would just be sent home if caught on this soil and would be back the next day.
I`m here legaly. He was not.
I`ll take my character over his any day.
If he is such a damn saint there are more than enough to go around in his country who could use help, but when he steps on this soil illegaly, he is a criminal. Simple.
You are not living in and you are not a U.S. citizen. You speak with no authority and certainly do not grasp the situation.
Big Picture 2 Angus -2
Like I asked, how many MS factions would you like us to send you?
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And the whole christian good sheperd slant is bogus. Not only is it not exclusive to christian livelihood, but it's not especialy religious, nor has he really forfeited further attempts at crossing over and spreading the message that wiping your wet behind with the law is well-looked upon.
Frostbitee, you're saying that some astronomical coincidence is tantamount to an extraordinary consequence of his will and nothing else, that without his good conscience in that situation the whole event would never have taken place, that anyone who wasn't there to do as much as he did (which is frankly nothing special) is less commendable for it, etc.
There's nothing racist about that: it's just common sense and would apply to anyone of any race or religion.
There's nothing selfless about this guy exploiting the corruption of politicians and employers to put himself at the front of the line while other people are patiently waiting whole freakin years to correctly integrate the US population.
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Originally posted by moot
And the whole christian good sheperd slant is bogus. Not only is it not exclusive to christian livelihood, but it's not especialy religious, nor has he really forfeited further attempts at crossing over and spreading the message that wiping your wet behind with the law is well-looked upon.
Frostbitee, you're saying that some astronomical coincidence is tantamount to an extraordinary consequence of his will and nothing else, that without his good conscience in that situation the whole event would never have taken place, that anyone who wasn't there to do as much as he did (which is frankly nothing special) is less commendable for it, etc.
There's nothing racist about that: it's just common sense and would apply to anyone of any race or religion.
There's nothing selfless about this guy exploiting the corruption of politicians and employers to put himself at the front of the line while other people are patiently waiting whole freakin years to correctly integrate the US population.
I gather you are also from Mexico legally. Then you of all people should know how difficult it is obtain a visa from INS when you have no family in USA, zero education, and lack of financial funds.
Last time I checked we all bleed, cry and breath the same air. Which makes us all what? HUMAN. It is mankind who makes laws and names for what to call someone. You say anyone would have done what he did, wish that were true. This is a man entering the USA illegally. He could have gone to the vehicle, tried to remove the mother from the car, make sure the kid was warm and left. He chose to end his journey with knowing he was going to jail. Alot of US citizens would not do that.
My beliefs that god works in mysterious ways is not argueable by no means. A family is in the middle of a desert with a wrecked car and noone shows until 8AM the next morning to rescue them. This 9 yr old boy is wandering around disorientated for couple hours and just stumbles upon this man trying to enter the USA illegally. Do you think he stopped to say, "wait show me your a legal citizen?"
If you were in a accident and unable to pull yourself out of the car, a man comes up to offer assistance, you going to say, "show me your ID?" You have a child in the hospital in need of a kidney and the Doctor tells you they have a match from a child who entered the country illegally, you going to say wait, it is here illegally, take it back to Mexico? Seems conveniece is when one becomes human and not termed as illegal.
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god loved mexicans so much he named his only son after one.
Moot's point is far from.... It is the point. There are many thousands of very useful and possibly heroic but at least.. good people who will help this country who are waiting to get in here.. they bust their butts to do all the right things and the restrictions are difficult. they come in all colors and from all nations.
So why is it fair to let some a hole criminal in and not them?
lazs
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Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door
It was cool for all our past relatives to come take from the Natives, but now that others are showing up to the party they need to be (fill in the blank with your sick comments). What good does kicking them out do anymore with all the jobs going overseas or down south anyways?
how about we switch to the fair tax, so we'll get their tax money whether their income is reported or not?
Glad he helped save the kid, the way some of you talk about other human beings I'd think the kid wouldn't have made it very long with you being near.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
That law is in place here Angus. It doesn`t apply to him, in the reality of punishment, due to the fact he is here illegaly. He would just be sent home if caught on this soil and would be back the next day.
I`m here legaly. He was not.
I`ll take my character over his any day.
If he is such a damn saint there are more than enough to go around in his country who could use help, but when he steps on this soil illegaly, he is a criminal. Simple.
You are not living in and you are not a U.S. citizen. You speak with no authority and certainly do not grasp the situation.
Big Picture 2 Angus -2
Like I asked, how many MS factions would you like us to send you?
The "If he was a saint" is one point. He did try to sneak in, but flushed it because he had both character and nuts.
I speak of this with the authority of a free foreigner, from a nation who has freedom of speach, to a person who has no authority to tell me to STFU. Just a minute, didn't you defend the freedom of speech in case of Nazis?
Seems that some words are more free to be told than others.
I think there are many situations you do not grasp Jacka1....
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Originally posted by Angus
The He did try to sneak in
No he did sneak in. At that time he became a criminal under our laws.
Simple.
You are more than welcome in this country if you come ilegaly with legal documentation. without it, in this case, he became one of many that are putting the screws on our country and also is a burden and cost to his country. Lose/lose.
Just a minute, didn't you defend the freedom of speech in case of Nazis?
I certainly did and do in the case of the wannabe Nazis. It is the best way for them to prove how totaly idiotic and uninformed they are. A neon sign , so to speak. Speaking is one thing. speaking with any authority and knowledge is another.Get the point? :)
Seems that some words are more free to be told than others.
Wrong again.
I think there are many situations you do not grasp Jacka1
That`s cool as I am certain you do not grasp the reality of this situation.
So...how many MS would you like sent to your country?
Maybe you can get some addresses and invite them. There is more than enough to go around. After you see some of the benefits from these fine , salts of the earth, you might be able to see the light. Until then you are a loud voice in an empty barrel. It holds nothing.
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
Last time I checked we all bleed, cry and breath the same air. Which makes us all what? HUMAN. It is mankind who makes laws and names for what to call someone. You say anyone would have done what he did, wish that were true. This is a man entering the USA illegally. He could have gone to the vehicle, tried to remove the mother from the car, make sure the kid was warm and left. He chose to end his journey with knowing he was going to jail. Alot of US citizens would not do that.
My beliefs that god works in mysterious ways is not argueable by no means. A family is in the middle of a desert with a wrecked car and noone shows until 8AM the next morning to rescue them. This 9 yr old boy is wandering around disorientated for couple hours and just stumbles upon this man trying to enter the USA illegally. Do you think he stopped to say, "wait show me your a legal citizen?"
If you were in a accident and unable to pull yourself out of the car, a man comes up to offer assistance, you going to say, "show me your ID?" You have a child in the hospital in need of a kidney and the Doctor tells you they have a match from a child who entered the country illegally, you going to say wait, it is here illegally, take it back to Mexico? Seems conveniece is when one becomes human and not termed as illegal.
I may weep openly:cry
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Originally posted by bongaroo
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door
that's just it, they have to come in through the "golden door", not sneak in the back window like a thief.
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MS? Please explain?!?!
Oh, BTW, we have a decent % of Chileans where I live....
"No he did sneak in. At that time he became a criminal under our laws."
How bad a crime? And what are the terms for getting in legally?
(I'll bet it is a pre-settled job with lots of paperwork)
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Originally posted by john9001
that's just it, they have to come in through the "golden door", not sneak in the back window like a thief.
aparently people willing to work harder for less aren't allowed in that way anymore
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Angus.
MS is probably the largest and most destructive Mexican gang to hit the streets of southern USA to date. They are almost exclusively illegal Mexicans and they are spreading fast.
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Originally posted by bongaroo
I lift my lamp beside the golden door
See? We have a door... He could have used that door legally. We allow 2 MILLION in legally per year... BY FAR more than any country on earth.
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Originally posted by SD67
Angus.
MS is probably the largest and most destructive Mexican gang to hit the streets of southern USA to date. They are almost exclusively illegal Mexicans and they are spreading fast.
Ah, Gangsters. And if an MS member gets arrested for anything, is it the boot, or Jail first and then the boot?
And here:
"We allow 2 MILLION in legally per year... BY FAR more than any country on earth."
Relatively? I seriously doubt so. I even think my country would top that one for the past few years...relatively....
As for a whole sum, I would not be too sure either...lots of movements going on in the world....
And an emphasis...how does the NAFTA work for a Mexican who wants to work? Lots of paper...?
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Originally posted by SD67
Angus.
MS is probably the largest and most destructive Mexican gang to hit the streets of southern USA to date. They are almost exclusively illegal Mexicans and they are spreading fast.
Actualy MS or MS 13 originated in Central America and have of late recruited and distributed Spanish factions in the Honuras , Salvadore and the U.S. (Mara Salvatrucha ). L.A.`s group is compromised of mostly Mexican illegals as are others.
Now it is a pipeline into the U.S. growing larger and larger.
Assasination for hire. Drug smuggling. Human trafficking. You name it, you pay, it`s done.
It used to be the southern U.S. It has now spread from D.C. down.
Plan, setup and execute a crime.then ghosts either back to homeland for a cooling period or just blend in. After all, they are not documented and are here illegaly.
This and others are a very effective pipeline for not only their groups and factions, but anyone or anything needed to be brought into our country.
It`s an open door that must be controlled.
Times have changed and so will we.
A little sample........
"On December 23, 2004, one of the most widely publicized MS-13 crimes in Central America happened in Chamelecón, Honduras. An intercity bus was intercepted and sprayed with automatic gunfire, killing 28 passengers most of whom were women and children"
It puts a whole new meaning to "Coming To America".
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MS13 are just hard working criminals looking for a better life of crime, the American dream.:rolleyes:
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Looks like the French are having a little problem with their immigrants again.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/26/france.violence/
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Originally posted by john9001
MS13 are just hard working criminals looking for a better life of crime, the American dream.:rolleyes:
:rofl
I can see one solution to this.
Make them a deal "they can`t refuse". :)
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
I gather you are also from Mexico legally. Then you of all people should know how difficult it is obtain a visa from INS when you have no family in USA, zero education, and lack of financial funds.
Last time I checked we all bleed, cry and breath the same air. Which makes us all what? HUMAN. It is mankind who makes laws and names for what to call someone. You say anyone would have done what he did, wish that were true. This is a man entering the USA illegally. He could have gone to the vehicle, tried to remove the mother from the car, make sure the kid was warm and left. He chose to end his journey with knowing he was going to jail. Alot of US citizens would not do that.
My beliefs that god works in mysterious ways is not argueable by no means. A family is in the middle of a desert with a wrecked car and noone shows until 8AM the next morning to rescue them. This 9 yr old boy is wandering around disorientated for couple hours and just stumbles upon this man trying to enter the USA illegally. Do you think he stopped to say, "wait show me your a legal citizen?"
If you were in a accident and unable to pull yourself out of the car, a man comes up to offer assistance, you going to say, "show me your ID?" You have a child in the hospital in need of a kidney and the Doctor tells you they have a match from a child who entered the country illegally, you going to say wait, it is here illegally, take it back to Mexico? Seems conveniece is when one becomes human and not termed as illegal.
All wrong Frost. I'm french born from south american and indian ocean parents, equal parts french, venezuelan, inca, creole. I was brought up in more or less equal parts in France, Canada, and the USA. All of my immediate relatives except one (divorced parents) are in the US permanently, I'm not there only because of a bureaucratic screw up.
I know not only how hard it is to move to the US, I also know first hand the burden that illegals are. I knew a lot of them first hand, worked with them, helped them raise their kids, round off their months so same kids could live in decent conditions... leant them money, which one couple ran away with - literaly hit the road overnight.
I know what it's like when you've got a nearly lethal medical problem and can't be treated because enough illegals are ahead of you on the line. I know first hand both sides of illegals involvement in traffic accidents, when they run off and when they've been hit and run the risk of not being treated properly because they are illegal. I've seen them work on Arizona highways like slave labor negligibly different from labor teams from prisons...
None of that is excuses breaking the law, when solutions to those problems are not just available where they were before illegaly coming over, but when the solution wouldn't be necessary if they hadn't come over as they did in the first place.
I've also seen a lot of identity theft by them, SS#'s of legal residents being used by them to sign contracts...
That not everyone would do what this guy did is true. But you have to take my meaning: it is not anything special. Considering a bell curve distribution of good and bad actions by an average population, what tacohead (:O) did was barely above average. It's akin to holding the door for someone with glass bone disease. You may have saved his life, but you didn't increase risk to your own by doing it. This guy was already (although that's arguable, there's probably a wide variance of difficulty depending on what path you take across the border) risking his life.
In any case it's not that heroic. Even if it were, it's independent from the fact that he's adding his bit to the huge immigration problem. Just because you rob a bank to feed your starving children doesn't make you heroic. You're still a criminal, you still could have gotten a job or done something similarly honest and actualy EARNED what you stole.
And like I said he'll go to jail... come out (especialy considering the big media spotlight he's gotten), and be free to cross over again as many times as he likes.
I have no idea what the point of your next paragraph is. You go from saying faith is arguable (nothing rational about it, no proof or disproof possible), to God working in mysterious ways (what's that got to do with anything?), to pointing out that beggars can't be choosers.... Same thing in the following paragraph.
What are you trying to argue?
Nothing that excuses illegals being treated as legals, as far as I can tell. Your belief doesn't stand up to reason.
To answer your question though, I'd have probably taken the guy's help and reported him for deportation as soon as he's out of the desert's danger.
Now tell me how crossing over the border illegaly, adding to the already immense burden on multiple aspects (criminaly, medicaly, professionaly... you could also look for recent posts by x0847Marine for illustrated examples) magicaly because an excuse for itself?
"One wrong makes a right"?
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With each and every response I read anger and racist comments from you Moot. I am not here to argue what he did is right. He did break the law by entering the US illegally. So his crime is to want a better life for himself. I cannot and nor can you speak as to why he had done that. We do not know the circumstances that exist in his life.
Your comment of not understanding what I meant about faith being argueable stems from your comment in a previous writing
"And the whole christian good sheperd slant is bogus. Not only is it not exclusive to christian livelihood, but it's not especialy religious, nor has he really forfeited further attempts at crossing over and spreading the message that wiping your wet behind with the law is well-looked upon.
Frostbitee, you're saying that some astronomical coincidence is tantamount to an extraordinary consequence of his will and nothing else, that without his good conscience in that situation the whole event would never have taken place, that anyone who wasn't there to do as much as he did (which is frankly nothing special) is less commendable for it, etc."
I shared my beliefs that Jesus did a kind thing for a young child in need. Is he wrong for breaking the law yes, I have stated that many times. Each and everyone on here breaks the law. Speeding, taking a pen from work, driving after a drink, etc. Does this make you a criminal? Is coming into America illegally a worse crime then what we as citizens do daily?
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
Is coming into America illegally a worse crime then what we as citizens do daily?
He was in America when he left home.
To answer your question, yes when it is done illegaly.
On a daily basis we don`t screw up the entire system.
On a daily basis we don`t screw up the voting system.
On a daily basis we don`t cost others their hard earned living.
Those that enter the U.S. illegaly are not only a cost and a burden to the U.S., but also are screwing their own country over.
We can`t help them in their country if resources are being ate up in ours to counter the cost and damage done by them in ours.
It`s a lose/lose situation.
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
With each and every response I read anger and racist comments from you Moot. I am not here to argue what he did is right. He did break the law by entering the US illegally. So his crime is to want a better life for himself. I cannot and nor can you speak as to why he had done that. We do not know the circumstances that exist in his life.
Your comment of not understanding what I meant about faith being argueable stems from your comment in a previous writing
"And the whole christian good sheperd slant is bogus. Not only is it not exclusive to christian livelihood, but it's not especialy religious, nor has he really forfeited further attempts at crossing over and spreading the message that wiping your wet behind with the law is well-looked upon.
Frostbitee, you're saying that some astronomical coincidence is tantamount to an extraordinary consequence of his will and nothing else, that without his good conscience in that situation the whole event would never have taken place, that anyone who wasn't there to do as much as he did (which is frankly nothing special) is less commendable for it, etc."
I shared my beliefs that Jesus did a kind thing for a young child in need. Is he wrong for breaking the law yes, I have stated that many times. Each and everyone on here breaks the law. Speeding, taking a pen from work, driving after a drink, etc. Does this make you a criminal? Is coming into America illegally a worse crime then what we as citizens do daily?
I believe you have to read what Moot actually said, rather than what you've read into it.
He stated he has first hand experience with Illegal aliens. So do I, for that matter.
He has worked his bellybutton off to use the legal means, that this guy Jesus bypassed.
Now here's the clincher, Frostbitee...People do help others, in times of need. I've driven up on accidents' that have just happened, and I stopped to help, one time I needed to perform first aid. I've never went out of the way to use that to my advantage. Does Jesus deserve a Thank you? Yes, he does. Does he deserve to get a free ticket to the front of the INS line for a green card? No. He tried to cheat, and get around all of the others' that went the legal way first. If a bank robber calls' an ambulance for a pregnant woman during a bank holdup, He's still a bank robber. Same applies here.
And BTW...Illegal aliens' steal from both you and I(If you are a tax-paying citizen of the U.S.) every day. They draw off of all of our social systems' , In most of the cases without paying back into the tax base that supports it. That in no way can be equated with stealing a pen from work. Don't get started with Illegals' and a "drink after work," That was hell in another thread.
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I am angry of the state of things. I'm maybe a little angry that talking to you it's pretty certain that I have in front of me someone who wants to relativize (sp?) the sheer enormity of the illegal immigrant problem because "they are human too". This is the same sort of non sequitur appeal to emotion that made "think of the children" and "for your own good" infamous.
If less people were as undiscriminating of right and wrong, had more integrity, there'd be less employers of illegals, less corrupt politicians in office, etc, and the problem wouldn't be what it is today. It's because of people being as lax as you seem to be (as far as your arguments hint to) that things are as they are today.
I'm most likely less racist than you are, considering how mixed I am by birth, inherited culture, education.. Have you literaly grown up with jew, french, canadian, quebecan, german, british, spanish, portugese, greek, venezuelan, brazilian, japanese, chinese, and arab kids? I did, and to take the last one as example, I probably know more about both sides (simplifying here) of the western-arab conflict in both an everyday and idealistic point of view than you do.
I'm pretty sure I'm more qualified than you are in that respect.
So, to recap: Like Frode said, Jesus was benevolent and especialy so given that he wasn't supposed to be where he was.. But he didn't forfeit his crossing over to the US, he'll get as many more attempts at it as he likes.
Nor does his benevolence in this case void the wrong of illegaly crossing over, or the consequent illegal residence.
I am angry, but what's wrong with that? Would it be better to relativize rights and wrongs as you do, just to bias your argument for the benefit of some shmuck's little moment of good conscience?
Yes, stealing a pen or a yacht are both criminal acts, but obviously of different degrees. Relativity strikes again.
Yes, coming to the US illegaly has at this point become a really stinky thing to do. Weighing the good of his action out in the desert with that kid, but, in comparison, nullifying the wrong of his crossing over because "everyone does it" etc is an obvious bias on your part. You can't pretend to be impartial or fair arguing those things.
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geeze frotbite.. it's about fairness... it is immoral to not be fair.. to be an American is to give everyone the same opportunity.
You need to actually read what moot wrote and not just look for a way to justify your preconcieved notions that anyone who believes in fairness of opportunity is a bigot.
Try to see past the color and look at the fairness of the law. why should some people be above the law or able to ignore it? if you believe the law is wrong then say so but.. you seem to be saying that mexicans should have a pass but you are fine with keeping out other peoples since they don't make a stink about it and obey our laws.
lazs
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First off I am Jewish. Second off, you all have it wrong on what I believe and think. I am not going to argue about my feelings and beliefs. You can read into what I am saying as you wish.
Good Luck to you all
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You said stuff, then argued a "belief" excuse when it all fell short of making sense, then backpeddled all the way back to everything you said possibly meaning anything at all but especialy something inaccurate, and now it's tied up to your being jewish.. What does that have to do with anything?
Nothing, except maybe a real clue to your biased perspective, considering its consonance with that out of the blue accusation that I'm racist.
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frostbite.. what does your being jewish have to do with it and.... If we have what you believe and feel wrong then I would have to say that you have only yourself to blame.
You took on a stupid and illogical positon and you were called on it.. not that difficult to understand.
lazs
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It's gonna be real bad when they report that the reason the lady lost control of her car was because she swerved to avoid the illegal running accross the road, who then went to look at the wreck and found his heart.
;)
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
First off I am Jewish.
Doesn`t matter. We`re still not coming down on the price of citizenship.
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Frostbite:
So you are Jewish... who gives a fat rats cloaca?
The issue is NOT race, it's whether a crime has been committed or not.
The fact that he did a good deed does and should not give him the right to unconditional citizenship. There are undoubtedly many more deserving folk who have fulfilled all the legal requirements to enter the U.S.A.
I say MORE deserving because this gentleman has already been caught in the commission of a serious crime .
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Yep, if nothing else it would make wetbacks more deserving than people like me who are ready and willing to serve in the army to earn their citizenship, and properly integrate into the country.
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yep moot... see the other thread.. this "idealism" when it comes to criminals is sickening... pure crap. Like welfare.. it doesn't take into account the misery it is causing and the crime and the fact that it is de facto slavery.
These "idealists" destroying... playing with peoples lives.. make me sick.
lazs
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Originally posted by moot
I am angry of the state of things. I'm maybe a little angry that talking to you it's pretty certain that I have in front of me someone who wants to relativize (sp?) the sheer enormity of the illegal immigrant problem because "they are human too". This is the same sort of non sequitur appeal to emotion that made "think of the children" and "for your own good" infamous.
If less people were as undiscriminating of right and wrong, had more integrity, there'd be less employers of illegals, less corrupt politicians in office, etc, and the problem wouldn't be what it is today. It's because of people being as lax as you seem to be (as far as your arguments hint to) that things are as they are today.
I'm most likely less racist than you are, considering how mixed I am by birth, inherited culture, education.. Have you literaly grown up with jew, french, canadian, quebecan, german, british, spanish, portugese, greek, venezuelan, brazilian, japanese, chinese, and arab kids? I did, and to take the last one as example, I probably know more about both sides (simplifying here) of the western-arab conflict in both an everyday and idealistic point of view than you do.
I'm pretty sure I'm more qualified than you are in that respect.
So, to recap: Like Frode said, Jesus was benevolent and especialy so given that he wasn't supposed to be where he was.. But he didn't forfeit his crossing over to the US, he'll get as many more attempts at it as he likes.
Nor does his benevolence in this case void the wrong of illegaly crossing over, or the consequent illegal residence.
I am angry, but what's wrong with that? Would it be better to relativize rights and wrongs as you do, just to bias your argument for the benefit of some shmuck's little moment of good conscience?
Yes, stealing a pen or a yacht are both criminal acts, but obviously of different degrees. Relativity strikes again.
Yes, coming to the US illegaly has at this point become a really stinky thing to do. Weighing the good of his action out in the desert with that kid, but, in comparison, nullifying the wrong of his crossing over because "everyone does it" etc is an obvious bias on your part. You can't pretend to be impartial or fair arguing those things.
Does anyone actually read, I was merely commenting back to what moot has said in the shown posting. My being Jewish has nothing to do with this. He asked if I had literally grown up with Jews. I suggest you all read all the postings before you go off on your attacks at me.
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Amazes me that noone actually reads posts, I have stated over and over I do not agree with him entering the country illegally. I have only said I feel what he had done was a good thing. And I am told I am back peddling. Read the posts (all of them), no where have I once defending this man for entering illegally. No matter if he broke a law or not, he is human and chose to do a good thing. Because I believe he did a good thing, I am being bashed? What is the matter with you people. If you wonder why someone has posted something, how about reading previous posts to see why.
Frode to your quote:
I believe you have to read what Moot actually said, rather than what you've read into it.
He stated he has first hand experience with Illegal aliens. So do I, for that matter.
He has worked his bellybutton off to use the legal means, that this guy Jesus bypassed.
Now here's the clincher, Frostbitee...People do help others, in times of need. I've driven up on accidents' that have just happened, and I stopped to help, one time I needed to perform first aid. I've never went out of the way to use that to my advantage. Does Jesus deserve a Thank you? Yes, he does. Does he deserve to get a free ticket to the front of the INS line for a green card? No. He tried to cheat, and get around all of the others' that went the legal way first. If a bank robber calls' an ambulance for a pregnant woman during a bank holdup, He's still a bank robber. Same applies here.
And BTW...Illegal aliens' steal from both you and I(If you are a tax-paying citizen of the U.S.) every day. They draw off of all of our social systems' , In most of the cases without paying back into the tax base that supports it. That in no way can be equated with stealing a pen from work. Don't get started with Illegals' and a "drink after work," That was hell in another thread.
That is all I have been saying. He should not have broken the law but yes he does deserve a thank you. Reading all posts would have shown you that. How many times do I have to say, I do not agree with him entering illegally??
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The way I read it he was asking if you'd grown up surrounded by a wide variety of races, not specifically singling out any particular one.
I think moot was trying to say he has been exposed to a variety of cultural values over his life, and can see both sides of the coin. I'm guessing that although he can SEE the other side, he does not necessarily relate to it.
Note he did not claim himself to be a member of any race, as race itself is not the issue.
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Yes, he does deserve a thank you.
I'd be thanking him if it was my kid, and I'd even write him a reference for when he wants to enter the legal way.
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
As racist and little minded some of you are here, if that were my family in the car I would be internally greatful for Jesus being there. I am a born US citizen and cannot comprehend what life is like in other countries and neither can alot of you. You can make all the hate comments you wish about Jesus, but if it were not for him, who knows what worse could have happened. I am a firm believer that God works in mysterious ways and he brought Jesus there for a reason. His couragious act deserves a chance in our country. For those of you with the hate comments, it is actually you who needs to find the truth in the fact that we are all Gods people no matter what origin we may be from. This story is a great story of one man who chose to not think of himself but of others. I know at least he can sleep well tonight, can you?
Frostbitee, we do read the posts. As a matter of fact, this is your first in this thread, which basically flamed everyone in it.
Also, I might add, you DID NOT state that you disagreed with him entering illegally. As a matter of fact, you said "His couragious act deserves a chance in our country." The way you put it, it sounds' like you want the U.S. Justice Dept. to simply ignore what has been set forth in law, and further erode our code of ethics. This is why half the board dogpiled on you with your opening post.
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Thank you, that is all I was saying. I do not agree to being bashed for thinking that way. I live in florida and there is a big problem with illegals here. It affects my husbands work as well. I do not agree they come here illegally, but when one does like Jesus did it does show they are all not bad. There are many problems due to illegals but with any one race we cannot say all are the same. All are rapists, druggies etc. Yes he needs to enter the right way. But also deserves a thank you.
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Originally posted by Frostbitee
what part of illegal don't you understand?
I completely understand illegal, it is comments like "the wet back", "send the hero to finland", "Whenever I see an illegal alien, I wonder what river they will swim next, after they've ruined this country.", and "So give him a kewpie and ship him back where he belongs."
Do I agree with them entering illegally, no I do not. But do I think he deserves a chance, Yes I do!
No where did I ever say I agreed with him entering illegally. This is my 2nd post. You are told again I DO NOT AGREE WITH HIM ENTERING ILLEGALLY!!!
Think now you can get it FRODE
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Everyone in it????? I said SOME of you. This is english we are speaking last time I checked.
Need defintions of what everyone and some are>????
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i think he is a great man and he could do wonderful things for mexico, he could even become president of mexico.
viva El Presidente.
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lol I needed a good laugh.
Nice chatting with you all but I am awaiting surgery and typing is bad for me. But addicting, lol.
Good luck to you all,
Lori
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Hope all goes well with the surgery, Frostbitee. :(
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ok, I think I understand now. If I rob a bank, on the way out, help an old lady cross the street, and all is good.
sweet
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Originally posted by Sixpence
ok, I think I understand now. If I rob a bank, on the way out, help an old lady cross the street, and all is good.
sweet
I'll drive the getaway car. We drop off a few meals on wheels to some geezers on the way out were off scot-free by Frostbitee's logic.
Oh wow He's a girl. Why didna she say so in the the first place.:confused:
Well good luck on the surgery
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Frostbitee your posts read like Frode said.. nothing like what you're saying now.
The point of mentioning my ethnicaly mixed experience is that if anyone's unlikely to be racist, it's me. I haven't spent any significant part of my life sheltered inside any single culture.
Re: The second coming (:p) : Deserving a thank you is not on the same scale as deserving a free green card while countless others actualy paid the price and waited in line for it.